Reality of IT Industry | Career After 40 | Impact of AI | Career Talk Podcast With Anshuman Tiwari

so what Google did to yahooo and other search engines back then Chad GPD and other similar searches will do to Google I'm not so worried about the generative Ai and all this is entertainment right so you can write your LinkedIn post with or your responsive with generative this is this is some fancy flirting you know you go to a new College 20 new girls are there you try or loc at everything you have had a long career in it non it variety of roles how did you survive for so long obviously everything is not positive I also been fired once and like many other people I've had multiple setbacks we can't blame neighbor and neighbor dog and everybody else for that they are kind of worried that oh 10 years down the line let's say we are in 2023 and if they have to fast forward and look at 2033 or 2035 will they be able to survive if yes then how this is one of those questions that if you find the answer it will no longer be relevant AI will not take your job any somebody who knows AI will take your job we want the outcome of the people who are in that 1% but effort and competen is of the remaining 99 do you have 10 people whom you can reach out to in times of stress 10 just 10 no need for 20,000 Corrections 40,000 100,000 followers 10 people can we list 10 people five people hi everyone we are starting a new podcast series on this channel and our first guest is none other than anuban anuman has more than 25 years of experience in it and non it Industries he is a LinkedIn Talk voice and he has more than 46,000 followers on LinkedIn he has worked in companies like infosis as a program manager quality and principal quality programs he has also worked in variety of leadership roles at HSBC and then he worked as a transformation director at Earnest and young his latest tint is at dxc technology where his role is director head of operational excellence so I had the fortune of talking to Animan for around 30 minutes where I asked him questions about his long-term career growth how did he sustain and survive what is his advice for people in their 30s and 40s what is his view on AI and the impact of AI so he has shared some real wisdom nuggets in the this particular conversation I highly recommend that you listen to this entire podcast and extract as much as value as you can let's get started hi anuman good morning thanks for joining me morning thanks for this invitation and happy to be on your show I absolutely love your work on LinkedIn and otherwise as well and I believe strongly that a lot of people watching this video on my channel specifically will love to hear from you because you have wealth of experience so you know thank you so much for joining in here it's absolute pleasure to have you same here I've enjoyed your YouTube videos um and your crisp writing style on LinkedIn so try to learn from it but far from it so I think yes as you said um experience but experience is also sometimes another the factor of age and longivity so the only thing we can do is that whatever experience we get we can learn from it and hopefully share so in that Spirit I'm in on your show that we've had a reasonable Innings some more years to go but um what you this experience if you can't share it yeah yeah agree agree So anuman to that point my first question to you is you have had a long career in it non it variety of roles how did you survive for so long and what kind of roles did you play because a lot of time people have this question that Beyond 40 is there is there a future okay so a lot of time people are wor and that's why we would love to hear your journey and how did you survive and thrive so firstly I think like everybody else else who's in this category Anand um my story or my career is no different from others it has had many setbacks of course because of the Advent of social media and because people like to you know when they hear you on stage they assume that you know everything is positive uh obviously everything is not positive I've also been fired once and um like many other people I've had multiple setbacks in fact if I count I think probably more things have not worked than they have worked so so it is like a cricket match also right so we sometimes count the dot balls as success but there were other balls which were failure or limited failure so perseverance and resilience is is something that I have truly believed in and just as background I have not had I don't have any fancy or or very robust education background I I had a steady education background like most other people very modest scor in 10th and reasonable in 12th could not get through any top Institute in it or IM am or anything none of those right so it's a very steady Brick by Brick story which I often share and and which is representative of 99% of the people correct and if you keep keep out the 1% most of us have gone to a less than top engineering school or even earlier school and then you know if we did MBA or other mtech or other such um courses so my story is the same the only thing I think the if you say the secret of longivity and the secret is not just mine it is for everybody who's been in similar thing is some level of resilience and and this understanding that we are a player in the larger game and there will be some days which will be low and there will be other days which will be better not to get over burdened with these Sorrows or setbacks and not to get over excited about the small wins here and there also so by the same token if if you don't take the setbacks too too seriously then you should also not take the joys too seriously as well so that would be a reasonable summary and then we can peel some of these onions and and and get into it uh you asked one question about the multiple roles so yeah yeah most of my roles have been around quality performance Excellence delivery excellence and that kind of space and industry has changed most of the industries are around it and related services so maybe that will appeal to your audience because a lot of your audience is in the IT industry I've been in it or related Industries for more than 20 combined years of course um but I also feel that this in and out that I did between roles and industries has helped me bring best practices from other Industries and and learn and apply so what I can apply in my role today I may have learned in a manufacturing setup or a Professional Services setup or a slightly other another setup or what you learn in a smaller company you can take to a larger company and vice versa so that actually could be a factor no evidence to prove that it is right but could be a factor again I would not say that you should deliber anybody should deliberately use this practice it happened for me and I took advantage of so basic principle in life and career is that whatever is happening to you may not be in in your control but learning from you from that is definitely in your control so let life happen but uh learn from it that certainly is in our control that we can't blame neighbor and neighbor's dog and everybody else that great great great points actually I think the the setback point I definitely relate to it because I've been in situations where things have not gone my way and I think like what you said it happens to everyone with that let's quickly also talk about the younger people today let's say people who are in their mid 20s mid 30s what I hear from them is they are kind of worried that oh 10 years down the line let's say we are in 2023 and if they have to fast forward and look at 2033 or 2035 10 years down the line will they be able to survive if yes then how what are the things they need to do today or in the next few years so that they have a flourishing or a you know sustainable career to to look forward good question an and and frankly nobody knows the answer I will share what I know and with full knowledge and humility that it is not a complete answer in fact this is one of those questions that if you find the answer it will no longer be relevant so like Heisenberg principal right so if you find the speed of the electron it location would have changed and and so on so the these kind of questions are explorative questions in my view right so glad that you asked it in a way that you did because I would hesitate to give a definitive answer there is no definitive answer something I have learned something you have learned we can share whether that something plus something adds up for a third person who we both may not even know and is listening to this recording later on some of the things may apply but I would strongly urge that please use your judgment and don't blindly follow any advice that you get from people like you me and other people as that is one of the dangers of social media or YouTube judgment so the same spirit I will use one of the areas that I have used to elongate my career and I just don't mean a longer thing it's a successful longer one so so that also we have to keep in mind see you can probably stay under the radar and do some you know Excel work for till you are 50 55 if you happy with that that's fine but if you are listening to this recording to understand how you can take your career forward or or take up manager roles or senior manager roles or director roles or you know even more senior roles then that hiding under the radar is not going to be then you have to be in the war zone so like in the war zone if you're in the bunker and fighting you can defend but you can't win the war you can defend you can in the sense that defense is that you know you may not get fired because you are doing some very very low in in the S skills hierarchy a lower level role not to demean any role but it's in the sales hierarchy it's a lower level so you will be okay you'll be paid accordingly and there will be lesser risk and you will not be noticed you there will be you will be off the radar so this advice is not for such people correct who are happy there if they are if they want to come out of the this thing then that risk is there that they might get a bullet again using the B energy that if you come out in the open you will get a bullet once in a while because whatever path you may may not be the best one for you that day correct now I'll try and explain a format and this is not my really format the you know Vijay goind Rajan one of the world's leading Innovation gurus he brought up a format or a framework for organizational Innovation okay so what he says is that Innovation succeeds in companies when they hold on to their past actively in the sense that one leg in the past so that they can milk their legacy right whatever has got them here they can milk them that Legacy and second box is more like this is called the three box solution second box is selectively work on the present which is maybe one year two year three years so that you can make money from that as well and third is investment which is you make investment for 5 to 10 years down the line so I have tried to adopt this or adapt this to careers and many other people have done it so the way I look at it that for example my background stronger background is in quality and related topics so that is my legacy right not that I'm done yet but that's my legacy so I have to protect that Legacy keep investing in it making sure that it grows I should remain at the top of my game people should know me for quality and other things that is when I will be able to protect my legacy by delivering results by being a Statesman in that space so you protect that Legacy usually your you know major income will come from your leg but since times are changing you have to continue to invest in something current okay so what is something current my something current is expanding the space looking at other related topics maybe other Industries and and so on the investment in future which I'm making is moving into this midcareer coaching space because you know in some years when I do have to make a choice of retiring from active work what will I do that investment is the third box now that may sound like expensive investment today but it will put probably put me in a position five years from now or or maybe longer where that will become my legacy so that becomes the first box so this three box solution is extremely important for people in all Industries and particularly it because maximum changes in it so number one protect your legacy save your legacy keep investing in it grow very good in it but remember that it will phase out at some point yeah so so whatever technology you are using or you are expert in that will go away so start investing and milking some current technology and third stay invested in some future technology which may mean that you might might might have to do a course outside of your company because the company will not invest in your futureed skills will invest in your current skills what you can invest give them today so that you will have to invest in some future skill so these three boxes if anybody listening to this is clear about these three boxes or or even partially clear longevity is not an issue and what I said earlier I will repeat that don't hide under the radar or don't stay in the bunker you will have to come out and fight if you come and fight the risk of getting a bullet is always there yeah choice is yours if you don't want that bullet stay under the bunker and enjoy and life will be fun absolutely I think a great great input uh thank you anj for that and when you were speaking about the the future one question which popped up in my mind is a lot of discussion these days is around Ai and the impact of AI right so what in your opinion is the positive and negative side of it and how should active people today who are in their 20s 30s or even 40s how do how should they perceive or how should they approach this entire AI bus so frankly Anan AI Buzz is more a buzz for people who are a little who were a little away from technology as you and I who've been in this space we know that AI is not new AI may seem new because today it can be in your pocket but in the 50s and 60s it needed a super computer a large room of a computer to play the algorithm and and do it a is also appearing to be new because there is now some deep level of machine learning possible which wasn't possible earlier because of computing limitations it was not because of human intelligence or human inability to think alen touring in the ' 50s developed this the famous touring test for artificial intelligence so this is far from New second I do caution people about exess you know exercising some some normal intelligence to identify whether this is artificial intelligence or not for example some days ago there was a very prominent ad in newspapers this is an AI designed shirt and AI manufactured actually so I I'm to by wisent that is it an ad clever ad just to put the word AI into anything and everything or is there something so you know that what are the human intelligences which which machines don't have the sense of color so if I can see you I can understand your color skin tone and all that is a unique human intelligence you know machines still don't easily have that so you have to program that depth I can understand depth I can stand a traffic signal and understand it the traffic is actually this deep not not the 2D that I see feelings of some kind is testing looking at your face I can understand this guy's bored this guy's interested this guy is upset angry mad at me or likes me and all those things that is uniquely human when you are able to bring many of these uniquely human intelligences into a into a machine that is some form of artificial intelligence very large Computing is not really artificial intelligence it is it is just giving what was done by 10 computers you are putting 100 computers or Brute Force so brute force is not artificial intelligence because you are just putting more power to the same algorithm or the program that you had and what could be possible in terms of computing in a year will now Take 5 minutes or what was possible in 2 hours will take 1 minute it is not necessarily intell correct is BR right so and because computing power and size of chips and memory and other such you know all the associated element I'm trying to keep it a little less technical for everybody is now POS is now in your phone so it seems artificial it is not artificial so that is the first distinction I like to help people draw that as well don't call anything that seems clever artificial intelligence it is not and machine learning is part of artificial CH because that is the magic right so when the program starts learning from its own errors and all then all successes as well then its output is better so now coming to your U with this disclaimer or Preamble for your or a lecture for your students some sense of history is also important and this is the second important point in this throughout history automations have always happened when the first farm equipment was developed like a plow or something human beings were happy some might have been happy when wheel was invented there would have been people would have been said that this is stupidity it will never work God has given us fruit strength we should use our strength wheel is a you know something against the will of God and so many other things and and you keep when gunpowder was invented when electricity was invented there were lot of oppositions when most recent which we which is very popular when horse carriages were replaced by cars again so history is full of protest and skepticism and C ISM for any new thing that comes in and we are no different from in today's world so it is just the same pattern is being repeated the pattern seems interesting because we are in it the history seems history because we were not in it somebody else was suffering there so because we are either enjoying or suffering or we are involved in it it seems very like it's happening to us so that's the second point the third is that all this takes a long time so nothing is going to happen today and tomorrow but certainly something is going to happen day after so if you keep that historical perspective in mind obviously because of several advances the times will be crunch so if if cars took 25 years to come from Factory to you know mainstream Road and become a accepted vehicle of Transport maybe you know what we call artificial intelligence may go very deep within 10 years so that time will get so those are three key fourth one is more around I'm not so worried about the generative a and all this is entertainment right so you can write your LinkedIn post with or your responses with generative this is this is some fancy flirting you know you go to a new College 20 new girls are there you try your loc everything so or vice versa so this is uh this is just flirtation it will be a better search so what Google did to yahooo and other you know search engines back then chat GPD and other similar searches will do to Google now it is up to Google to respond and hopefully it will respond because then the fight is interesting match will go to the last over but I don't think this is going to fundamentally change what we do and how in any case everybody anybody who knows this space says that AI will not take your job any somebody who knows AI will take your job so that is extremely important so that brings us to the the concept what can we do so we can learn more about it so try and understand more about it and use it a lot of people I have met an have so much to talk about about chat GPD and and B and noar and all and I I have been asking them have you used it actually yeah in my kind of work it is not useful I mean you you believe you it is not useful to you you don't want to use it you have not once tried it but so that is not going to go take anybody anywhere so whether you are 20 30 40 50 60 whatever age you are if you're not going to use it learn from it my suggestion is shut up and don't talk about it because you have zero clue the last point on the CI thing true thing that I waiting for is the application of deep artificial intelligence in cancer screening rainfall production in flood in earthquake version maybe figuring out you know some better Solutions in education because humanity is core problem forget the 10% 5% which live in advanced forget us also you and I are privileged people four problems still remain education Healthcare and agriculture so if we can't solve those three problems and maybe population also if we can't solve these three four problems with any new technology I don't see how it will be beneficial for the human race as I'm elevating the discussion to absolutely rest of it is entertainment I don't really see much but of course you know one must be fully aware I am able to make these statements because I've invested time and effort to understand and learn more about this so I'm giving a two three 5 minute summary in this but again to your audience don't take my word go do some research understand this then figure out how it can affect you or impact you it definitely gives a very different perspective and a thought around how people should look at not just the current happenings but also the the future technology changes and stuff because also Onan one related point is lot of people just get into tech jobs or in demand jobs because there's a lot of money out there okay they just chasing the money Trail so when you're chasing the money Trail today it is this Tech tomorrow it is something else so lot of people ask me this question in today's world in it what are the top skills or top roles which pay you really high salary or or maybe in future what are going to be some of the top skills or top roles which will pay you better or higher salaries as compared to others so any thoughts or inputs around that sure um like in every industry on the you know higher up in the value chain you are we took an example of a shirt right a shirt designer definitely gets paid more than the guy who's actually stitching the shirt washing machine the design concept the microchip guy the know person or the team designing will get 100 times more salary than the person on the shop floor or the person who selling it to you this is true in it as well it is true in every field of Life by the way so what wherever you are the closer to the source you are the better so be at the design Source closer in it sense it primarily means product companies so if you are in product companies and in design of that product again not in sales service because there the effect start trickling down now I'm giving you a blunt answer because you asked a direct one so the closer you are to the source in terms of product and design and all because there is a multiplier Factor right so what I may be able to design let's say this you know recording tool that we are building there might be a team of only 10 people which is designing that but millions of people are using it look at the multiply fact the work that 10 people did I mean WhatsApp that we use the core team was eight people that's it and billions of people now or at least Millions I think it is just a billion are using it that service of course it's very different so in terms of income be closer to but then comes the question that do you have the skill set to be there know it's all it's all okay where I call the 1% 99% fallacy is that we learn the lesson from 1% people and and apply want to apply to 99% people that doesn't happen so what Elon mus does for the we is possible for him may not be possible at all for me I have to figure out what are my skill sets what are my limitations capabilities and and I'm not the one to ask anybody not to dream of course everybody should dream but Follow that dream with competence and uh some effort so difficulty is that when yeah not only youngsters others as well I'm at an age where I can call most people youngsters so because they are younger than me so the difficulty of course starts there that we want the outcome of the people who are in that 1% but effort and competencies of the remaining 99 so this math does not add at all but but I think simpler answer to your question I which I already shared is that be closer to the product design if you in IT services because most of your audience is from it if you're in IT services again be in jobs which have huge leverage and multiplier Factor so if one person job can impact pack a large set of customer base that job will not only always be safe comparatively but will always have some significant dollar leverage because you know we know that you know this person can or this ecosystem can actually service 10 customers and not just one wherever there's a one-on-one or hard work or manual effort leverage that you get you are always vulnerable because I can always say Anand I think you can manage three you know client Anand will die but you know he has to manage what will happen Anand will then find some other job and say that boss I don't want to get killed in this so whether you are asked to leave or you leave on your own you will have to move on and then the company will find somebody to actually do that job which will sound like a dream job for that person because he was jobless so this is how replacement strategy works right so people are phased out and then for somebody else it is dream job so what was hell for you becomes seven for somebody else and that's how the overall average in the industry keeps going down and you will find that jobs that were done by top coders 10 years ago are completely marginalized today but skill sets I would certainly say that don't pick particular skill set but pick the location of the skills where is it in the value chain that will make sure that you continue to do well wow great I think that's that's a great point you made especially the the point on what is hell for you is Heaven for somebody else I think that's that's absolutely true great great insights Onan one last question that I have for you is because like what you said in the introduction itself that you lost your job and then you switched multiple roles or Industries I want to come back to that point and I want you to leave our audience with few dos and don'ts okay few things you have already covered some of them were really solid points but some action LS that okay do these three things or don't do these three things and you will benefit in the long run something of that sort some tips that you want to leave us with I not a very tips person an but but I'll try see one thing I and I I'm saying this in the context the 99% right so let me clarify once and once again that this session is going to be heard or you know seen by people who are definitely in that 1999 so for most of us you me included we have to work really really hard that is lesson number one or tip number one or advice number one that I give all the time and whenever some including to my children as well is that please work extremely hard you know you if you are not falling to your bed at 10 p.m. or whatever time and going to sleep in 1 minute you have not used your day properly and this is the age you know if you're 20 25 30 and you are just not falling crashing on bed and going to sleep in 1 minute you have wasted your day this time will not come back many other things will come back but this time will not come back so please work very very hard is some advice I give and I don't care whether it's a hard work smart work all these are book selling tips and you know so somebody will invent some smart work acronym and people will put up a poster and and not do anything about it as if that poster is not going to work hard poster is never going to work hard we still have to work hard so yeah so tip number one work hard tip two be intentional about your career so your career is your responsibility it has always been throughout history nobody else including your company government Society United Nations nobody's interested in your individuals career they might be interested in a particular career as a on mass right so as a category but an m andman tiari are not on United Nations radar for career longivity so only we are so that intentional nature think about your career take some time off keep your phone away go for a long walk talk to people get some mentors coaches listen to an's podcast and and or other similar ones where you will get some views on what you might be doing because when you're isolated and I keep saying this that we and most for most of us only our grandmother and mother is interested in our looks nobody else cares same is for our career and skills yeah so we overthink all of this we have to be in invested in our own career so unless we do this intentional thinking push so intentional thinking I shared one or two formats you know one framework was that think of three boxes invest you know protect the past milk the current one or at least try and and invest in the future so what are the your three boxes so all those listening people you draw out your three boxes see what is your what are your three boxes so that would be the second one and a derivative of course the third one is that keep talking to people coaches and all and listen to all this learn what something new which is the second and third box and be a little bit bit more open also now one another framework is of career transitions also on and you will know this very well but since you mentioned that when I had that career accident I was actually able to find something within one month and that happened because I already had a broader Network I had invested in that Network so when that unfortunate situation arise Rose I was able to quickly leverage it to some extent and and remain grateful for that so I avoided that accident to actually hurt me but most people look for networking opportunities or skill sets when that letter already lands in their inbox that is stupidity you know the your house is already down and you are going running for a bucket with and water which is then never going to be so the old saying is quite adequate here third one I would say is invest in your network a little bit I'm not saying become heavily active on LinkedIn or become a top wise but do something do you have 10 people who you can reach out to in times of stress 10 just 10 don't no need for 20,000 Corrections 40,000 100,000 followers 10 people can we list 10 people five people so that is my message to youngsters that you know have five 10 people real people whom you can call and take some input and advice from not your 20,000 on LinkedIn and 55,000 on Instagram and you know 1 million on YouTube or whatever I mean correct those those are those are atmospheric conditions so when you need oxygen in hospital you don't pray for the atmosphere to give you oxygen you need that oxygen right so where is your oxygen mask so those are those five 10 people so these three areas I would think strongly urg youngsters younger than me I'm also young but you're than me to adopt so yeah that's about it awesome I think great great Shuman it was really really a very insightful discussion some PS of wisdom uh for everybody who is listening to this if you guys have further questions you know feel free to make comments I'll request anuman to read the comments once in a while and then respond to them I'll try to do as well but uh thank you for taking time Anan once again this was our first episode like I said and we will definitely want to know a lot more from you so in future I would request you to once more help us with such sure great great insightful real talk right so I think this is what people really gain when they when they talk to somebody who is ahead of them has seen more uh quarters or has seen more uh releases or has seen more deliveries more experiences So yeah thank you thank you for that absolute pleasure my pleasure and all the best to your audience and you as well good good thank you thank you Anum man thanks bye see you take care bye-bye bye

Channel: Career Talk

Views: 65,528

Keywords: career talk podcast, podcast with anand, career talk, career talks, anshuman tiwari, reality of IT industry, career after 40 years age, impact of AI, it industry, it industry in india, anand vaishampayan

Id: hPN2fK8kyqw

Length: 32min 25sec (1945 seconds)

Published: Tue Dec 12 2023