Rachel Naomi Remen — The Difference Between Fixing and Healing

hello beloved on being listeners and friends many of you are asking how you can help support the work we're doing at the on being project if we're fortunate enough to make it onto your list for giving this year you can absolutely visit on being dot org slash give your generosity of every kind is gratefully received thank you for being with us on this adventure support for on being with Krista Tippett comes from the Fetzer Institute helping build the spiritual foundation for a loving world Fetzer envisions a world that embraces love as a guiding principle and animating force for our lives a powerful love that helps us live in sacred relationship with ourselves others and the natural world learn more by visiting Fetzer org Rachel Naomi Remen is one of the wise people in our world I quote from my conversation with her all the time she's a physician and a lyrical writer whose long struggle with Crohn's disease has shaped her view of life and medicine living well she says is not about eradicating our wounds and weaknesses but understanding how they complete our identity and equip us to help others the way we deal with losses large and small shapes our capacity to be present to all our experiences and there's a difference she says between curing and healing we thought we could cure everything but it turns out that we can only cure a small amount of human suffering the rest of it needs to be healed and that's different it's different I think science defines life in its own way but life is larger than science life is filled with mystery courage heroism love all these things that we can witness but not measure or even understand but they make our lives valuable anyway I'm Krista Tippett and this is on being dr. Rachel Naomi Remen beloved books kitchen table wisdom and my grandfather's blessings have been translated into 24 languages this gem of a conversation happened in 2005 you grew up I believe as you say surrounded by doctors and one mystic doctors a few nurses that would have been your Orthodox rabbi grandfather student of Kabbalah before it was a fashion trend and he was a flaming mystic and he was also a magnificent storyteller well what do you mean when you say he was a flaming mystic I mean describe that to me what that means oh it means many different things it can mean a scholarly thing like the study of a school of mysticism like Kabbalah but it's also a way of seeing the world my father my father my grandfather felt that the world was in constant communication with him that there was a spirit in the world of God in the world that could be spoken to and could respond at all times that there was a presence in the world that was holy and sacred and that he was in constant dialogue with this as he went through the events of his day I think mysticism can be defined in many different ways I didn't know that my grandfather was a mystic no I just knew that the world that he lived in was the world I wanted to live in - hmm you recount this this idea of the Kabbalah which I hadn't known him but I don't think maybe because you're a storyteller it was very vivid for me that this idea that at the beginning of the creation the holy was broken up right of the story to say of the bar at the beginning of things and you know the story of the birthday of the world so you told it to you yes exactly I have used to describe it actually Krista this this was my 4th birthday present this story and if you'd like I'll tell it yes do yeah so this is the story of the person the birthday of the world in the beginning there was only the holy darkness the eins off the source of life and then in the in the course of history at a moment in time this world the world of a thousand thousand things emerged from the heart of the Holy darkness as a great ray of light and then perhaps because this is a Jewish story there was an accident and the vessels containing the light of the world the wholeness of the world broke and the the wholeness of the world the light of the world was scattered into a thousand thousand fragments of light and they fell into all events and all people where they remain deeply hidden until this very day hmm now according to my grandfather the whole human race is a response to this accident we are here because we are born with the capacity to find the hidden light in all events and all people hmm to lift it up and make it visible once again and thereby to restore the innate wholeness of the world this is a very important story for our time that we we heal the world one heart at a time and this this task is called tikkun olam in hebrew we could restore their connection between the story of the sparks and tikkun olam and jewish tradition is are they they're exactly the same I didn't know that I didn't I didn't yeah right it's the restoration of the world right and this is of course a collective task it involves all people who have ever been born all people presently alive all people yet to be born we are all healers of the world and that story opens a sense of possibility it's not about healing the world by making a huge difference it's about healing the world that touches you right that's around you the world into God's works our is yeah yeah many people feel powerless in today's situation right I mean when you when you use a phrase like that just out of nowhere heal the world it it sounds like a dream right and a nice sweet ideal completely impossible so very old story comes from the 14th century and it's a different way of looking at our power and I suspect it has a I suspect it has a key for us in our present situation a very important key say some say somewhere about that I think that's right for me well you know I don't want to talk politics here I'm not a person who is a political person in the usual sense of that word but I think that we all feel that we're not enough to make a difference mm-hmm that we need to be more somehow either wealthier or more educated or somehow or other different mm-hmm then the people we are and according to this story we are exactly what's needed and to just wonder about that a little what if we were exactly what's needed hmm what then how would I live if I was exactly what's needed to heal hmm and I think these kinds of questions are very important questions and exactly what's needed is precisely the given story of your life exactly exactly and you know the story people will say about a story like the striped acutal um ah the birthday of the world well you know how can I make a difference when I'm so wounded myself mm-hmm how can I make a difference when I feel so not enough you know but you know it's our very wounds that enable us to make a difference we are the right people just as we are for example my own wounds my own sufferings have enabled me to feel compassion for the sufferings of others without my suffering I wouldn't understand that the suffering of others or being able to connect to them my loneliness enables me to recognize the loneliness and other people even when it's covered over to find them where they have become lost in the dark and sit with them and to know that just by sitting with them eventually they will find what they need in order to move forward you know there was another story in my family my grandmother there was my grandfather's wife the Rebbetzin my grandfather in Russia they were quite poor and they often fed members of the community being the rabbi's home people came there so my grandmother was used to making things stretch and go a long way and in this country her ice box was filled with food when they came over to America because she had been hungry in Russia the the the kitchen was the center of the house the icebox was filled with food every nook and cranny was full to the brim and it was told in my family that if someone opened the door the the icebox with with that caution an egg might fall out and a break on the kitchen floor and my grandmother's response to these accidents was always the same apparently she would look at the broken egg with satisfaction and say AHA to Davey have a sponge cake and so perhaps this is about our wounds you know that the fact is that life is full of losses and disappointments and the art of living is to make of them something that can nourish others and you know when I first was diagnosed I was 15 years old with Crohn's disease yeah and the doctors came and told me that I had this incurable disease there was no nobody knew what caused it I would have multiple surgeries and I could expect to be dead by the time I was 40 not my dream of the future as a 15 year old I I went into shock and my mother was with me and she did not not comfort me or cuddle me she took my hand and she reminded me of this story and she said Rachel we will make a sponge cake and you had taken me a long time to find the recipe that's mine my own recipe for this but I had a sense of what might be possible and that I needed to look to find the way for myself and that's what a story can do hmm I wonder um I want to turn a corner but before I do I wanna tell you a story briefly I'll just just that that I I went home having all this in my head and my son who's seven Isaac something of a mystical bent I think I mean children do it but he really there he's got a lot of depth and he's thinking hard and I told him this story about the beginning of the universe and you know but the sparks and the holy flying on he just listened to me so rapidly and he said I like that I was told this story um let's see sixty-three years ago and my response to it was exactly the same and that's very important about stories they touch something that is human in us and is probably unchanging perhaps this is why you know parables the important knowledge is past their stories it's what holds a culture together culture has a story and every person in it participates in that story and so story and not facts are the the way the world is made up the world is made up of stories it's not made up of facts although we tell ourselves facts to to piece together the story well the facts are the bones of the story if you want to think of it that way I mean the facts are for example that I have had Crohn's disease for 52 years I've had eight major surgeries but that doesn't tell you about my journey and what's happened to me because of that and what it means to live with an illness like this and discover the power of being a human being and you know whenever there's a crisis like 9/11 do you notice how the whole of the United States turned towards the stories I mean where I wanted to where I was what happened what happened in those buildings what happened to the people who were connected to the people in those buildings because that is the only way we can make sense out of life is through the stories and the facts are a certain number of people died there but the stories are about the greatness of being a human being and the vulnerability of being a human being I think you makes it an interesting contrast also with the fact that we live with all kinds of stories in our culture forms of entertainment as well as information but that those stories always have beginnings and endings and you say that the stories of our lives stories as they function in life take time real stories take time there's a powerful saying that we tell each other stories sometimes we need a story more than food in order to live they tell us about who we are what is possible for us what we might call upon they also remind us we're not alone with whatever faces us and that there are resources both within us and in the larger world and in the unseen world that may be cooperating with us in our struggle to find a way to deal with challenges and when I say a story doesn't have an ending for example part of my story is you telling your little boy the story of the birthday of the world that's also part of my grandfather's story right mm-hmm and your little boy has never met my grandfather but perhaps my grandfather will be woven into his life in some way it may be a very small way or may not I don't know but in that sense no one's story has ever finished [Music] I'm Krista Tippett and this is on being today with dr. Rachel Naomi remand [Music] you did you train also as a psychiatrist or you could have really become a professional listener as well as a physician I I would say yes I'm trained but I have no credentials I have spent I would say 3000 hours in humanistic psychology workshops okay learning various techniques imagery symbol work sand tree work poetry art anything that would enable people to to discover the strength in them discover who they are and so I have a very extensive training but I don't have a degree in psychology or psychiatry I have taught in schools of psychology I've taught health psychology and and all of this but I am I'm a physician I'm an MD it seems to me that you have at the same time that you have worked as it had a medical practice worked as a physician and specializing I believe in working with people who have cancer is that right yes that all came about you know I think I've made very few decisions in my life it's like I find myself in a situation and it's very clear what the next step is and I take that step and I think this is basically my modus operandi for leading my life but I wanted well we had grants to study the doctor-patient relationship and then a new administration came in and we couldn't get the final piece of funding to finish this work and I spent six months writing grants and then ran out of money and people had been calling me up because I'd been writing about these things and saying can I come and talk to you about my my problem and I said another visitor centers that I'm not a psychologist that not as Ike I don't do that no these are people sick people friends our friends our friends all sorts of people and then when I ran out of money I said well I guess I do this so I found a little office on a houseboat in Sausalito the first office and a few people came by and I decided I would go and speak to the my colleagues in the medical community and tell them that I wanted to work with sick people and with their emotional issues and their struggle to live with disease and also to recover from disease and most of the physicians in the community said terrific who has the time to talk to these people and you know once I I've run out of treatments I have nothing more to offer anyone and that's not another whole story in and of itself of course and let me send you over my patients and within months I had a completely full practice and most of the people were people with cancer hmm and I began to work as a person who focused my efforts on working with people with why do you think that most of the people your colleagues ended up sending you were people with cancer was that a particular life experience that they weren't equipped to handle in its fullness the hospice movement is fairly recently okay so this is this is before that I mean you knew how to treat the cancer that's what we were trained to do in medical school we're trained differently now okay the issues of the person with the cancer was something that we would refer people to psychiatrists but you know these aren't people who have psychological illness these are people who are confronted with a very very challenging life situation and who need to mobilize their full strength and the strength of their families in order to meet with these things to live well despite cancer it seems as you say you probably didn't plan this I'm sure you didn't plan this but what you said earlier about how we're all given the lives we have and that that's good enough and even what's wrong with us is part of what we have it seems like it's been really important in your medical practice and also in how you've helped other physicians how you've reflected on your profession that you also have struggled in your life with this debilitating illness of Crohn's disease which you were told was fatal mm-hmm I'll say earlier but Chris said I don't think it's what's wrong with us I don't see you know sometimes what appears to be a catastrophe mm-hmm over time becomes a strong foundation from which to live a good life it's possible to live a good life even though it isn't an easy life and I think that's one of the best kept secrets in America as you say that the pursuit of perfection has become a major addiction of our time I mean we throw that word addiction around a lot but I've never heard anyone talk about our pursuit of perfection as an addiction well I think perfection is the booby prize in life actually it's very isolating very separating and it's also impossible to achieve so you're always struggling to become something you're not but you know this is one of the great it sounds funny I was going to say the great choice of working with people on the edge of life the view from the edge of life is so much clearer and the view that most of us have that what seems to be important is much more simple and accessible for everybody which is who you've touched on your way through life who's touched you what you're leaving behind you in the hearts and minds of other people is far more important than whatever wealth you may have accumulated now what is your understanding of why that simple truth that we've all heard said and it makes so much sense why is that hard for us for human beings to take seriously before we get to that edge of life for many of us I think we get distracted we get distracted by stories other people have told us about ourselves that we are not enough that we will be happy if we have material goods that material goods will keep us safe none of these stories are true what is true is that what we have is each other and again you know that's so it's lovely and it's clearly true and yet we don't we don't live there we don't live there and this is why I see people with cancer and other people who have encountered very difficult experiences in their lives as teachers teachers of wisdom it's as if the wisdom to live well is at the moment the repository of this wisdom are the sick people in our culture the ill people in our culture [Music] after a short break more with Rachel Naomi Remen we're putting all kinds of great extras into our podcast feed lots of poetry music and a new feature living the questions you can get it all as soon as it's released when you subscribe to on being on Spotify Google podcasts Apple podcasts or wherever you like to listen on being is brought to you by the John Templeton Foundation the Templeton Foundation supports academic research and civil dialogue on the deepest most perplexing questions facing humankind who are we why are we here and where are we going to learn more please visit Templeton org the Templeton Foundation stay curious [Music] I'm Krista Tippett and this is on being today with the wise physician and lyrical writer Rachel Naomi Remen her lifelong struggle with Crohn's disease shaped her practice of medicine and she in turn has changed the art of healing and medical training we're exploring what she knows about the difference between healing and curing and how our losses actually help us to live what have you learned through your work with other physicians your attempt to listen to other physicians and to kind of let's say work on the healing of the field of medicine how did that come about that you started doing that actively whether again you know the next step appears in listening to the people with cancer at the retreats I would hear stories about their experience with the medical system and with the people in it and every year so often someone would go back and tell their doctor what they had experienced at the retreat and the doctor would call and I was the medical director I am the medical director still at the retreat and the doctor would say aren't you doing anything like this for us I began to realize how wounded I had been by my training the training is abusive it's very very very difficult experience as well 6:20 in 24/7 medical school and medical training goes on for years seven seven eight years you know and I began to realize how I had been healed by these people with cancer how I had moved from a person focused on curing and truly coming to understand that we are all healers of one another that people have been healing each other since the beginning and that my power to cure was a small part of my power to help people and wanting to help my profession as well people who go into medicine are extraordinary you know I I developed a course called the healers aren't gosh that was 1992 and we I taught it at UCSF it's a very unusual course it's an experiential course usually don't do these things certainly not back then in medical so and it's about enabling young people to recognize that who they are is as important as what they know in terms of what they're going to be able to make a difference in people's lives it is validating for students the human agenda in illness it reminds them that healing is a different relationship than a curing relationship and it reminds them of their power to make a difference through their human response and connection to their patients it basically reminds the students of the lineage of medicine you know I happen to see medicine as a spiritual path that's my personal thing that medicine is a spiritual path which is characterized by compassion harmlessness service reverence for life courage and love the basic qualities of the Hippocratic oath are not scientific qualities they're the qualities of human relationship and they are spiritual qualities very profound spiritual qualities and we remind the students of the lineage and this is young students and we enable them to see that they belong to it exactly as they are that they are already the right people to become physicians all they need to do is learn science and learn the facts without allowing themselves to be changed by that process in any way what is it in that process I mean it seems ironic and the stories you tell about how destructive medical school can be seem ironic we do think of people who go to medical school as you say as ordinary and as people who are giving themselves over to this profession that is about healing and what you describe is a is an experience that is we learn how to cure okay yeah now this is changing I mean obviously 10 years ago this course would not be in any of these schools UCSF was forward-looking enough to give it a whole mm-hmm you know but I think the world is changing I think we're recognizing the limitations of our science our science you know that little phrase living better through science there's no question that we live better through some huh but to live well is going to take something more than that I mean if I look at myself without the eight major surgeries and the many medications and I still take many medications that keep me alive I wouldn't be here mm-hmm but with only these things I'd be an invalid right hey I wanted to ask a minute ago when you said you think about medicine as a spiritual path and yet it seems that medicine is also a science at least in our culture and it seems that at some point and somehow the science overwhelmed or the scientific mindset even among those of us who are outsiders who how we view science overwhelmed whatever spiritual element there is in that well you know you have to understand how natural that is I mean when I tell you about myself when I was a child I had severe otitis media okay an ear infection and developed an abscess in the bone of my skull and sulfa drugs were available in the nick of time and that power was a very heady power we could do it where was insulin for people with diabetes I mean you she after about what this meant all of this you've seen all this in your lifetime oh my god yes this meant a huge amount for PA we thought we could cure everything but it turns out that we can only cure a small amount of human suffering the rest of it the rest of it needs to be healed and that's different it's different I think science defines life in its own way but life is larger than science life is filled with mystery courage heroism love all these things that we can witness but not measure or even understand mm-hmm but they make our lives valuable anyway and I say the destructive aspects of life are also mysterious an unmeasurable all right I mean we can also observe evil and I think that's true of course that's true but you know the issue is not to eradicate evil I'm not sure evil can be eradicated I think it's part of the human condition the issue is to commit yourself to what's important to you you question the term objectivity that is part of a scientific framework i I think that word as a journalist I'll say it's also you know it's a value that's been held up in many disciplines in our culture and it's coming into question in many disciplines you know is it enough or you know are we kidding ourselves when we say we're objective and if we're kidding ourselves and do we need to look at it all over again objectivity is cognitive right in a funny kind of way isn't it but the thing that seems important is that in order to understand life we need to look at it through many different dimensions mm-hmm and that sometimes we understand another person the best and know how to help them the best when we are not objective there's another simple statement for you but we don't always on Matt yeah objectivity is a bias like anything else I mean the funniest story in I think this one is in kitchen table wisdom is the this happened at sloan-kettering many many years ago when I was an intern first year doctor and we had a man come into the hospital to die and you know people used to come into the hospital die there wasn't a hospice movement then so that when if your care was too difficult to achieve at home you were admitted to the hospital to die and this man came in riddled with cancer he had an osteosarcoma and his bones looked like Swiss cheese all these lesions were cancer and there were big snowballs of cancer in his lungs and in the two weeks or so that he was with us in the hospital all of these lesions disappeared and they never came back Crysta now were we in awe certainly not we were frustrated obviously someone had first diagnosed him so the census lines out to pathologists all over the country and the pathologists and back the slide saying classic osteogenic sarcoma you know so then we had a Grand Rounds and the slides were shown the x-rays are shown the man himself was shown and the conclusion of this large group of doctors was that the chemotherapy which had been stopped 11 months before had suddenly worked now the embarrassing part of this story is that I believed this for the next 15 years I never questioned this conclusion I think too great a scientific objectivity can make you blind what do you think now I think that that was one of the purest encounters with mystery that I have ever in my life it makes me wonder about who we are what's possible for us how this world really operates right I have no answers right but I have a lot of questions and those questions have helped me to live better than any answers I might find I'm Krista Tippett and this is on being today with dr. Rachel Naomi Remen you know something that I found interesting and when you write about working with physicians that you you try to make them comfortable with loss and to understand that as a part of their lot their jobs their lives their working lives but again I mean when you know you're talking about physicians but you end up making interesting observations that apply to all the rest of us about loss talk to me about you what you've learned about loss all right then I'll give you I mean here's some smaller sentence that I wrote down and the way we deal with loss shapes our capacity to be present to life more than anything else the way we protect ourselves from loss maybe the way in which we distance ourselves from life I think this is absolutely correct that is such a shocking thought really I think it's correct I also think that no one is comfortable with loss mm-hmm that being that we're a technical article culture our wish or our our first response let's put it this way our first response to loss is try and fix it when we are in the presence of a loss that cannot be fixed which is a great many losses we feel helpless and uncomfortable and we have a tendency to run away either emotionally or actually distance ourselves yeah and fixing is too small a strategy to deal with loss right you know what we teach the students is something very simple there are medical students yeah we teach them the power of their presence of simply being there and listening and witnessing another person and caring about another person's loss letting it matter letting it matter we do a six hours on loss two three-hour sessions and the students have a very simple instruction which is they are asked to remember a story of loss from their own lives and loss let's put it differently a time when things didn't go their way when they were disappointed when they lost a dream or a relationship or even a family member you know they get to choose that and then they spend six hours in small groups talking about their loss and the group has one instruction listened generously now prior to this exercise we do another exercise with them where we ask them to remember a time of disappointment and laws and to remember someone who helped them what did that person do what did they say what message did they delivered that was helpful to them at a hard time in their lives and they write these things down very concretely and then we ask them to remember a time of loss in their lives and remember someone who wanted to help them but was not of help to them what did that person do and say and what message did they deliver and how did they deliver the message and they write that down and then we make a big list what are all the things that helped right listen to me for as long as I needed to talk talk to me in the same way after my loss as they did before my doors right um sat with me touched me brought me food right what were the things that didn't help gave me advice without knowing the full story made me feel that the loss was my fault so we gather up the wisdom about what helps loss to heal from a group of about a hundred students and faculty and it's all very simple stuff and the only instruction is listen generously again it takes me back to how we began talking about the power of stories in human lives and your analogy that the stories are the flesh we put on the bones of the facts about our lives and you know I also hear I think it's so powerful to UM just to think about this obvious fact but again one of these obvious facts we don't name very often that loss is not just catastrophic death it's that there are many different kinds of losses in our lives all the time and then this kind of stunning idea that you bring forth that the way we deal with those losses large and small can really help or get in the way of the of the way we deal with the rest of our lives with with what we have right not just what we've lost I think this is so I really do I feel it might put this most people try to hold on to the thing that is no longer part of their lives and they stopped themselves in their lives in that way I have come to see laws as a stage in a process it's not the bottom line it's not the end of the story what happens next is very very important and you know people respond to losses in different ways when I first became ill I was enraged I hated all the well people I felt that I was a victim and this was unfair right I was angry for about 10 years I think all of that anger was my will to live huh expressed in a very negative way and people often are angry in the setting of a terrible loss they often feel envious of other people and this is a starting place but over time things evolve and change and at the very least people who have lost a great deal can recognize that they are not victims they are survivors they are people who have found the strength to move through something unimaginable to them perhaps in the past and just asking people that question you have suffered a really deep loss what have you called upon for your strength most people haven't even noticed their strength their completely focused on their pain on their pain and isn't that natural Krista yeah there's something very hopeful all the way through your writing even when it is about loss and the hard dark side of being human I mean you do insist and I'm not sure that modern psychiatry insists on this that integrity is is achievable for everyone that you see it come to people and sometimes it comes to people in crisis you say wholeness is never lost it is only forgotten whole this includes all of our wounds mm-hmm it includes all of our vulnerabilities it is our vintage self and it doesn't sit in judgment on our wounds or our vulnerabilities it simply says this is the way we connect to one another often we connect through our wounds through the wisdom we have gained the growth that has happened to us because we have been wounded allows us to be of help to other people so it's not a moral judgment integrity simply means what is true to live from the place in you that has the greatest truth and that truth is always evolving as well [Music] Rachel Naomi Remen is founder of the remin institute for the study of health and illness clinical professor of Family Medicine at UCSF School of Medicine and professor of Family Medicine at the Boonshoft School of Medicine at Wright State University her beloved books include kitchen table wisdom and my grandfather's blessings [Music] on being is Chris Kegel Lily Percy Mariah helgerson Maya Terrell Maurice Amberleigh Erin Farrell LaRonde or doll Toni you Bethany Iverson erin kala Saco Kristin Lim profited Oh Casper tech I'll Angie Thurston sue Phillips Eddie Gonzalez Lillian vote Lucas Johnson Damon Lee Suzette Burley and Katy Gordon and in these days around Thanksgiving we also have a tradition of thanking all the people who make on being possible behind the scenes they include Heather Wong our 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Keywords: Krista Tippett, On Being, The On Being Project, On Being with Krista Tippett, cancer, crohn’s disease, cure, death and dying, healing, healing and trauma, integrative medicine, Jewish, Judaism, kabbalah, medicine, mystic, on being classics, Public Theology Reimagined, science, spiritual genius, storytelling, Rachel Naomi Remen

Id: oaRE-GUsDTk

Length: 51min 59sec (3119 seconds)

Published: Mon Sep 23 2019