Questions & Answers with Godfrey, Lawson, and Thomas

question comes in how can i grow in my experiential knowledge of god well obviously to grow and our experiential knowledge of god is at the heart of sanctification and multiple texts that we could quote that would affirm it it really begins with the written word of god uh john 17 17 sanctum sanctify them in the truth your word is truth and so that's progressive sanctification growing in the grace and knowledge of the lord jesus christ and that is brought to pass in our soul by the ministry of the holy spirit who takes the written word of god and conforms us into the very same image it begins with the knowledge of god which is knowing who god is not just about god but within your own heart and soul to actually have a vital personal living relationship with god that's what it is to know god john 17 3 this is eternal life that they may know you the one true living god in jesus christ whom you have sent and so to know god is we would have to know what god is like and we would have to spend time with god and we would have to worship this god and we would have to deepen in our relationship with god and how we do that is by being in the word it also happens by being with in worship it takes place in the context of relationships with other believers as they come alongside of us and we have fellowship together we hold together this knowledge of god and we stimulate one another to love and good deeds but we also stimulate one another to grow deeper in the knowledge of god and i think even as we serve the lord that there is a putting into practice what we know is true about god that deepens us yet further i don't think we're growing in the knowledge of god when we're passive spectators sitting on the bench i think it's just speculative at that point that we've got to be in the game and our shoulder to the plow and finding our place of service in the kingdom of god and the more that we serve the lord it it it has a way of not only sealing it within us but embedding it deeper and we are stretched to depend upon god even more as we serve the lord and we are stretched beyond our own abilities and our own strength and our own wisdom and we are put in a place a posture of humble dependence we become aware of our weakness and we have to draw close to god to continue to carry out his will for our life and i think all of that is necessary and christ colossians 1 15 is the image of the invisible god and in order for me to grow to know god god has chiefly and supremely manifested himself to us in the person of his son jesus christ you remember there in john 14 show us the father and that's enough he who has seen me has seen the father and so to grow in the knowledge of god it necessitates that hebrews 12 2 that we be looking unto jesus the author and perfecter of faith and so it it's incumbent that we are consciously aware of following christ and obeying christ as we just heard and that too is a part of growing in the knowledge of god experientially that we walk by faith and not by sight and we trust in the lord with all of our heart and lean not on our own understanding and in all of our ways acknowledge him and he directs our path that that's a part of growing in the knowledge of god experientially so it's it's it's comprehensive in that sense um there are many spokes that go out from that the hub of that wheel of knowing god um that is absolutely necessary and i'm sure these other two men have much to add to that uh quickly several thoughts first of all this is where the puritans excelled and they they were experiential cowardists so read a modern translation of john owen or richard sibbs or william gernell but but read a modern translation first and maybe a little paperback and there are lots of them available today because they were they were the kings of experiential theology secondly read scripture and discern the doctrines that are in scripture and meditate on those doctrines and and i think as calvinists we probably are our weakest at meditation because we we tend to think of meditation as something eastern or mystical but i think there is a a very real way in which we can meditate on the relevance of this doctrine for me uh pray to the holy spirit and and don't don't do this too quickly you have to slow down to become an experiential calvinist and pray to the holy spirit because this is his ministry to bring the truth of god to bear upon your mind and heart and will and affections and there was something else and i can't remember know what that was well i i agree with everything that's been said of course but i i also want to underscore the importance of the church uh you mentioned that briefly the the importance of the fellowship of christian people the importance of worship um i i think there's a an attitude that creeps in occasionally that public worship services are just sort of formal things and they're fine as far as they go but if you really want to be serious you need to do other things well you do need to do other things but the public worship of god is the real center in many ways of our growing in experiential calvinism and what an encouragement it is to meet with other christians to see their devotion to the lord to join them in singing the praise of the lord i think that's a great stimulus to pursuing the lord and of course particularly when we sing psalms that that's what i was going to say i was going to say sing psalms that's exactly what i think thank you then i'm not just johnny one note actually it takes several notes to sing songs and uh but but to have that experience of entering in to a wonderful praise of god and meeting with god in song it is a great stimulus to all the other pursuits of of growing and knowing god what is reformed theology in simple terms warfield said it was an apprehension of god in majesty so so it's it's a vision it's a it's a disclosure it's an awareness of the absolute majesty and sovereignty of god it is it is isaiah 6. it is revelation 4 and 5 in a nutshell it it's also the whole bible i i think we sometimes forget that though the word reformed is actually an abbreviation of what calvin and the reformers really talked about and they said we are reformed according to the word of god what what they meant was we've allowed the word of god to reshape the way we think and live and and believe and so it is profoundly true uh that reformed theology is simply biblical theology it's a it's an effort to understand the bible in its fullness and interconnectedness and every time you're reading the bible you're reading the best reformed theology how can young believers fight cold orthodoxy and express reverent worship in an evangelical culture that is worldly i wish there was more cold orthodoxy around it seems to me the notion of cold orthodoxy is occasionally true but far less true than it sometimes is alleged um real orthodoxy is always living it's always a truth that makes alive and so i i think the besetting sin of evangelicalism today is not cold orthodoxy but hot heterodoxy and i would trade cold orthodoxy for hot heterodoxy any day but that shouldn't be our choice our our choice is to pursue genuine reverence and awe in the light of god's truth and i really think it needs to be said and i'm leaving town so i can say it if you're really in a church with hot heterodoxy it's time to find another church and i know it's hard to leave a church because the church is so much a matter of friendships and connections and many deer memories but if a church isn't moving in a better direction there comes a time when you need to find a better church what are some practical ways we can better minister to those who would consider themselves part of the quote-unquote exvangelical movement in other words how can we show the love and grace of christ well to those who have left the church who may still believe in god but who can be harshly critical of bible bible believing churches and congregations well i think we need to witness to them that they if they do not love the church and if they look down upon a bible-believing church i would say there's a strong case to be made that they do not yet know the lord jesus christ and as we would go to them it's not just to urge them to get to church it's to urge them to come to christ and to come to faith in christ and if as it was quoted already i think by dr thomas if quoting calvin if god is your father then the church will be your mother i mean the two are in separately bound together um so in first john 2 20-28 you know they went out from us but they were not of us verse 19 for if they had been of us they would have continued with us and so they gave evidence of their unregenerate state by leaving the church and not coming back to the church so it would be hard to make a case that someone is truly a christian if they have left the church and do not want to come back to the church and look down upon i think i heard you say in the question a bible-believing church that's that's that's a total contradiction such a person does not exist in the kingdom of god god changes the heart and regeneration he takes out the old heart of stone and he gives them a heart of flesh and he writes his word upon their heart and puts his holy spirit within them and causes them to walk in his statutes a regenerate heart will seek the lord and will seek god's people and will pursue the word of god and and that's pretty black and white and so i how do we approach people like that i think we lovingly graciously approach them with the gospel and second corinthians 13 5 examine yourself whether you be in the faith and that's the most gracious kind thing that we could do for them are you do you truly know the lord have you been born again have you met the risen christ so as i hear the question and maybe i misunderstood it but as i hear it um i i think that such a person is our mission field and that we need to go lovingly to them with the gospel and give call them into account and prayerfully they'll repent and give evidence of true saving faith then but if they continue in the way that they're going first john 2 19 they went out from us but they were not of us for if they had been of us they would have continued with us that's just pretty clear um i i agree totally but let me let me add something else that there are there are lots of reasons why people drift away from the church and you have the jonas you have the peters you have the john marks all of whom felt aggrieved with god or with his purposes or with his people or with what god was asking them to do in some form or fashion so don't don't give up on these people you know at our church we we we have a a sunday school class that's designed for those who are once who grew up in the church but drifted away and so we we we toned down the teaching a little so that so that without contradicting anything uh we we we try to unhave events um that are a little less demanding so so social dinners events men's meetings and and they've proved enormously successful whether these folk are converted or not and are just backslidden i i have no idea i have no idea but i don't think god gives up on these people you know i i don't know who the apostate are who are never ever going to be you know never never going to return as you're saying that derek you're describing people who have come back to the church and plugging into this class and plugging into a network of fellowship and as i heard the question as i answered it i'm hearing no we're not coming back we're we're going to stay away from the church and actually look down upon the church and sometimes the reason is that they you know they they have drifted into a pattern of life that is contrary to the gospel and and they need to repent but somebody needs to come alongside them and show them how to repent and that repentance is possible by the grace of god and even in the most complex situations and and they're often liaisons of some description um you know it is possible to undo that by the power of the holy spirit sure and i totally agree with what you're saying and god has sent someone to come alongside of them and show them how to repent and that's the holy spirit who has come alongside the parakletos and that that's his office work and that's his ministry to bring conviction of sin and the lord also has a way if that's a true child of god he he disciplines his own and scourges them when they are disobedient and that's an evidence that you actually are saved is that the lord disciplines you when you have stepped away from the pattern of scripture and if you go undisciplined and just continue to go your own way that would be a very telling sign yes only god knows who the apostate is but that would be cause for concern that you could just drift away from the lord and drift away from church and drift away from the will of god and there's no discipline and there's no holy spirit conviction and there's no drawing you you back i mean that would be serious cause of concern for me and i agree completely with what you're saying but i feel compelled just to kind of add that other layer as well we they if they're saved they do have the holy spirit to do that well i i think this was a complicated question so chris you know is to blame for um [Laughter] but part of what i think i heard in that question was these people have left the church with criticisms of the church and and i think whenever that happens we have to listen very carefully to what the criticism is and i think we have to be willing to grant that there are legitimate criticisms sometimes of the church so we have to listen to these people to try to find out what's really on their hearts and minds understanding always that they don't always tell you the truth that there may be some sin below the surface that they're justifying by their criticism of the church but nonetheless i think we always have to try to recognize that the church is a place where sinners gather and if there are sinners gathered in the church then they're going to be things wrong with the church and we need to do some granting that there's wrong with the church absolutely well there's no perfect church and if you joined it it wouldn't be perfect anymore so uh obviously i really have not spent time in dutch reform circles but i'll withhold uh any comment at that point well not to beat this into the ground but um yeah it's hard to interpret the question and many times i'll drive home after a q a and i've waxed an elephant with my answer and my wife will say you didn't understand the question and i'll say but it was a phenomenal answer [Laughter] could i just request that next time we have ann here um i've lost all control what are some effective ways this kind of a follow-up what are some effective ways to reach the younger generation and bring them into church when some churches seem to be aging well i uh um yeah the dutch would be a good example of this [Laughter] [Applause] i mean just another place another century but go ahead i would like to say that i think dutch reformed churches by and large have done a remarkably good job holding their young people in the church because of course they include them in the church by baptizing them and then they carefully catechize their young people teaching them the basics of the faith uh most places they send them to christian schools so that the faith of the home is supported in the school they're very faithful in bringing them to church morning and evening on sunday um so we have to we where we already have young people in the church we have to invest in them and discipline them disciple them for the kingdom i'm sensing and maybe it's just i'm trying to be unduly optimistic in a sad age i'm sensing that young people are getting more serious and that part of what we have to demonstrate to young people is that church is serious it's it's about serious things it's about a serious god and um and that's very relevant too to their life that god is the most relevant thing that who that exists absolutely and and i think the great experiment in making church comfortable and happy and easy um unintentionally communicated it's also not important and i think by seriousness before god by reverence and hawaiian worship and in our whole educational enterprise we're saying to young people this is really important and i think that will be part of what is importantly communicated to them what are some ways that a christian can help or encourage their pastor come to church stay awake i wouldn't know about that i'm not dutch we had we had two of our faculty members go in and preach in a church in puerto rico that was both reformed in its soteriology and pentecostal in its practice um so when the the the second one to go there uh came back happened to be jay adams many of you all heard of him as a counselor jay adams came back and bob strimple our president who'd been the first to go said well jay when you were preaching how many were slain in the spirit and jay said none and bob said oh a number were slain in the spirit when i was preaching and jay said well they were interested in what i was saying going to try to take control again what encourages you um it it amazes me how sometimes christians will never ever say thank you that that sermon really helped me today now there are some who say it every week and then and and you think you know it's just something that they say um but just occasionally when when somebody's gone out of their way to write a note and and this happens weekly for me i think i'll get a note in the mail saying that's something that i said and i don't even remember saying it but it it touched them it helped them it got them through the week it got them through a trial and and you know i i don't think ministers want to be praised so that the devil gets in the way and there's there are pride issues for sure um but just occasionally i mean a lot of younger pastors i mean when when i talk to young seminary students the the biggest thing that they fear uh is um disagreement and and they're averse to it they're averse to conflict and um you know recognize that every now and then you know preachers preachers as sinners like the like the rest of the congregation and um you know if you if you knew what went on in my head you definitely wouldn't want me to be your minister um but i mean just just occasionally you know ministers need a word of encouragement and it can be just a thank you a handshake that has meaning in it at the door but but you know and that's it and you go home thinking well i think i did some good today and and that gets you to the next day regarding dr lawson's emphasis on the moment of being made alive how should someone who has never known life apart from christ think about the moment of his or her his or her regeneration well no one was born physically alive unto god no one comes out of the womb in the kingdom of god that's why you must be born again because there was something tragically wrong with your first birth there was the transmission of the sin nature there has been the imputation of adam's sin to you in in sin did my mother conceive me psalm 51 i came forth from the womb speaking lies psalm 58. so you need a clear understanding of the doctrine of regeneration and to quote dr sproul that happens at a point in time it's not a progressive regeneration it's progressive sanctification but regeneration happens at a point in time that's why jesus used that metaphor in john chapter 3. if i pull out my billfold and look at my driver's license it says i was born on a certain day and saul of tarsus was converted on a day the ethiopian eunuch was converted on a day 3 000 souls at pentecost were converted on a day that's the way god works and it would be improper theology to say well i've always known god no you have not always known god you've known about god you may have grown up in a christian home praise the lord for that you may have gone to a christian school praise the lord for that but there's a difference between knowing about god and actually knowing god now admittedly some people cannot pinpoint the moment when that took place and and i understand that and that must be acknowledged other people can pinpoint that moment but here's here's the point there was a point when they came to know the lord there is a point when they when they were called out of darkness into light there was a point when they were called out of the world into fellowship with jesus christ first corinthians 1 9 and so no one has always known the lord and so that would be a false assumption that's why eternal life john 17 3 is to know god and before that as we heard last night you were dead even the elect were dead in their trespasses and sin even the elect were walking according to the course of this world even the elect were children of disobedience even the elect were children of wrath even as the rest i mean that couldn't be any more clear and so as i hear that um it needs to be framed with sound doctrine it needs to be framed with a true theology and so i yes i understand luke 1 john the baptist filled with the holy spirit in his mother's womb i'm not going to be driving first of all the analogy of scripture the whole body of scripture does not teach that so i need the rest of the bible to help me interpret luke chapter one and i certainly am not going to take from a narrative uh let that be the governing principle in in my hermeneutic when the the doctrinal teaching even in epistles and in christ discourses speak contrary so anyway that's my response and i may have some push back here from some of my covenantal brothers but um i'll let them know because you're not believing luke 1. no i do believe luke 1. that was a joke okay no i do i would just go ahead but why couldn't i i mean none of us would want to say you have to reach a certain age before you can be regenerate and and i would certainly agree with you that is probably the case that the the experience of john the baptist i think being regenerated in the womb of his mother is not the ordinary [Music] experience in life but it certainly has to be a possibility wasn't jeremiah also consecrated from the womb i mean um it seems there's more than one scriptural verse you have trouble with [Applause] i think that i've always believed that regeneration takes place at the level of the subconscious and faith takes place at the level of the conscious and i believe that it is possible yes you are conceived in sin but you can be regenerated in the womb but you may not express that faith the consciousness of that faith until you're a teenager and and that's how i would personally understand john the baptist sure would you say that person was dead in sin at the point of conception they're both dead and alive they're they're at the point of conception but maybe at six months they are regenerated by the power of the holy spirit and they're no longer dead in trespasses and sins they're they're they are in christ what would you say on bob's text in luke 1 where in the womb life would they also be dead in sin it's not my text it's our text um i i i i i agree with derek john the rap just like everyone except jesus was conceived in sin but somewhere along the line in the womb was regenerated and luther makes a very powerful argument about this and i think convincing it doesn't just say that john was filled with the holy spirit but in the presence of jesus in mary's womb john in the womb leapt for joy and luther says i don't know how a baby in the womb has faith but no one leaps for joy genuinely without faith and so there's some kind of faith there and i like that but i'm not claiming it happens to everybody now to quota a great dutch reformed synod the synod was asked when exactly what is the exact relationship of baptism in regeneration and the synod with one of the wisest answers in the history of the church i think declared regeneration occurs before during or after baptism because we don't know for sure exactly but this is ligonier's 50th anniversary and it's also my 50th anniversary in 2021. because i was regenerated on december the 28th 1971 at about 11 15. at night i can say with clarity that at 11 o'clock i was not a believer and at 11 30 i most certainly was my wife can't remember a day when she didn't believe she went to church three times on sunday she went to a midweek she sat around the piano singing i think hymns on sunday afternoon uh in in what was a a very typical irish presbyterian church so it's not important that you know when you are converted what's important is to know that you are and my experience was sort of in between i started going to church for the first time really when i was a junior in high school and sometime but between that beginning to go and being a senior in high school i was regenerated but i don't know in the course of that year exactly when but i know yeah at one point i wasn't regenerate and another point i was this seems like a good follow-up at what point does conviction about amer a matter err into obstinates [Laughter] the opposite the obvious answer is when you're dutch reformed uh or baptist let's end with this one what is the best way of using the creeds and confessions to instruct people well for me the greatest book that i've ever read it was dependent upon where i was in my life at that point doesn't mean it's the greatest book ever been written but it was the perfect book for me at the pivotal moment in my life was a body of divinity by thomas watson and that was the great change in theology for me and he was simply preaching through the westminster catechism or confession and there is enormous value in studying the confessions because they are such profound concise statements of truth systematic theology sound doctrine and in a somewhat comprehensive way from bibliology and theology proper to christology to pneumatology to angelology to anthropology to hermetology to sociology to ecclesiology to eschatology the 10 major areas of systematic theology and it gives you a a full council of god and i i think that that everyone should be confessional and that everyone should know what they believe and that it's been time tested and that a plurality of scholars have joined their hearts and minds together and struggled and prayed and wrestled with how to articulate this in as few words yet as many as are necessary to state the truth and we did something like that with the chris christology statement even with ligonier so those are invaluable and i i can't remember exactly the thrust of the question but that's what flashes to the forefront of my mind and that for me was i went from being armenian to reformed that that was the game changer that was the tipping point of being brought through that so praise the lord the the creeds um the nicene creative 325 or the niceno constant napolitan creed of 381 or the calcedonian creed of 451 i mean those are those are universal statements of truth regarding the church's understanding of the trinity and the church's understanding of the relationship between the two natures of christ and although both of those trees or all three of those creeds have been challenged multiple times in almost every century including our own they still stand up to be the best comprehensive statement of what scripture teaches about the trinity and the person of christ so to try and um to try and live without those two creeds would be to be like a sailing boat but there are no sails or you get into a car but there's no engine right so so um they provide stability they they tell you what is orthodox and what is not orthodox if you don't if you don't agree with the nicene creed or the or the cons or the the calcidonian creed you're not a christian well whatever else you are you you are outside the orthodox bounds of of fundamental christianity now confessions are a little more tricky because they they are not universal creeds they're they're statements of of an understanding of scripture that that a certain group within the church um but i you know without the westminster confession and and i've i've i've been reading and and studying and teaching the westminster confession for [Music] i don't know 40 years um [Music] it would be like reinventing the wheel you know what are the fundamental doctrines what does scripture teach and and if you have to go back to no creed but the bible and you you'd constantly be reinventing the wheel without the benefit of what learned exegetes and theologians have said over centuries to help you understand what is orthodox and what is not and we should also remember that as confessions a number of churches have also catechisms and the catechisms were specifically written to teach the faith and so whereas confessions were sometimes written to summarize the faith catechisms were written specifically to teach the faith and the great catechisms that have survived over the centuries then are huge treasures for the church the westminster shorter catechism the westminster larger catechism sometimes people are intimidated by the larger catechism because the answers to the questions are long but if you break those answers down sort of comma to comma it's really very clear it's not complicated it's not difficult it's just long so if you chop them up a little bit it's very manageable so the uh and and i think uh it's it's something of a tragedy that the larger catechism has been neglected because there are important themes on the church on the sacraments for example um in developed in the larger catechism that are not so developed in the shorter and then there's also the heidelberg catechism the queen of catechisms [Laughter] there's that wonderful story that warfield tells of um during the civil war period and meeting someone in a stranger in a strange town new town and they were just passing by each other and as he passes he asks what is the chief end of men and the soldier replies man's chief end is to glorify god and enjoy him forever and he says i knew you were ashore the cataclysm man just by the manner in which he walked there thank you gentlemen thank you you

Channel: Ligonier Ministries

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Keywords: Reformed theology, biblical theology, what is reformed theology, Jesus Christ, faith, Pittsburgh conference, conference, Ligonier conference, Ligonier Ministries, questions and answers, QA, Dr. Steven Lawson, Dr. W. Robert Godfrey, Dr. Derek Thomas, Ask Ligonier, what does the Bible say, steven lawson, derek thomas, w robert godfrey, ligonier ministries q&a, ligonier ministries questions and answers, christian, christianity, god, the bible

Id: uXdpQyZLtlw

Length: 44min 16sec (2656 seconds)

Published: Sat Sep 25 2021