Quantum Computers Will Change Everything (Michio Kaku)

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you can also support the show and our work at skeptic dot com slash donate if you want to make a donation skeptic Society is a 501c3 non-profit education organization out there protecting you from crazy bad ideas my guest today is Dr Michio Kaku the co-founder of string field Theory and he is the Henry samut professor in theoretical physics at the City University of New York graduated with a ba from Harvard and a PhD in physics from the University of California at Berkeley he has hosted several tv specials for the BBC TV the Discovery Channel and the Science Channel you know you've seen him a lot he hosts two national science radio shows exploration and science fantastic show I've been on a bunch of times he's the author of numerous New York Times best-selling books including the god equation oh you were on uh you were on this show for that so you're our returning Champion uh the future of the Mind the future of humanity physics of the future hyperspace parallel worlds physics of the impossible and Beyond Einstein here's the new book Quantum Supremacy how the quantum computer Revolution will change everything I I listen to the whole thing in audio Michio it was great it's really good so the first thing I want to ask you is how is it you're able to do theoretical physics and be a full-time professor and write all these fantastic books how do you do that well first of all I'm proud to say that there's a lot of interest in the fact that the computer industry is in turmoil the book Quantum Supremacy just hit the New York Times bestseller list really congratulations there's no officially a bestseller all right yeah and just remember that uh well you know every physicist has a hobby uh believe it or not a lot of string theorists like to go hiking I prefer not to go hiking I prefer to talk to talk to people and write books this is what I do for a hobby and it's of course educational because I want people to share the same enthusiasm and the same Vitality with which I approach science and I think it's infectious that if you say that you're interested in physics and then you explain many of the wonders of the universe through physics people get hooked and that's why I do it interesting and just curious as a fellow author how do you work do you set aside like a block of three hours a day to write or you just do it Catch catches catch can well it's a hobby so what I do is I scan the internet I look for the latest developments in space travel and astronomy and biology and genetics and then once in a while an idea come pops into my head I say oh Jack and write a book about that and so then I just you know look around the internet and writing books is much easier than the old days the old days I had to go to the New York Public Library it was a hassle you wasted the whole day trying to negotiate through the Labyrinth of the New York Public Library now with the push of a button you can write a book yes well let me ask you this to that extent then chat GPT or gpt4 4.5 whatever would you continue writing your books or are you gonna basically hire it done by an AI well let's look at what uh Chad Bots do they are tape recorders what they do is they grab different aspects of a certain topic of the internet splice it together and put it and pass it off as if it's created by them now it sounds Eerie it sounds as if a human wrote these things and that's precisely right a human did write these things all the robot did was plagiarize and it's like a tape recorder that simply takes existing sound and puts it together and so there's no originality right from wrong is there's no understanding a right or wrong truth and falsehood it's a tip recorder and that's why I think there's plenty of room for writers who are creative and can go beyond simply parroting what other people have said yeah you know there was this statement signed by thousands of people to put a six-month pause on uh on all a GPT type AI programs and some of the people that signed it were you know authors of books like the kind you write and I so I tweeted at them no one responded but you know are you gonna quit writing books I mean aren't you don't you want to write your own stuff who would use that you know to completely replace themselves maybe you'd use it for research or something like that but I just can't imagine somebody not wanting to write and just hiring a chat GPT to do the work for them well you know the New York Post had a big article they quoted certain passages from a chatbot saying that the robots are going to take over humans will be irrelevant uh welcome the reign of robots and there's a champion saying these things what happened of course was some teenage boy was ranting and raving on the computer and look all the chatbot does is it takes bits and pieces of different statements and splices them together so you gotta watch out you you can unconsciously promote all sorts of nonsense and all sorts of different kinds of dishonesty if you don't watch out so it's better to write it yourself rather than relying upon a chatbot yeah do you have any concerns that advanced AI could lead to the extinction of the species or the collapse of civilization or even something like mass unemployment or some some big catastrophic threat to our well I think unemployment will change but then again take a look at this way we don't have blacksmiths anymore but we don't cry about the fact that we don't have blacksmiths anymore because they became automobile workers and other kinds of workers and in the same way a carpenter is not replaced by a hammer a hammer does not replace a carpenter a hammer increases the power of a carpenter so I think that in the future the people who will lose jobs are those that are purists who want to do everything by hand and shun any kind of computer-aided work and the people who will thrive in the future are the people that understand the limitations of this technology and use it and remember you got to be careful when you use this technology you cannot yield fire in the middle of a crowded theater that's against the law and so we have a situation where we have freedom of speech within limits and so you have to be careful that your chatbot doesn't run away and declare war and do all sorts of nonsense in your name and that's the problem that we have to negotiate well that's the only scenario that I've heard that that could possibly lead to something like a catastrophe where some AI creates a uh a deep fake video of President Biden ordering his cabinet to or the Pentagon to launch First Strike missiles against the Soviet Union sorry Russia and then they strike back and we have nuclear war when actually nobody wanted that except some teenager with a with an AI what what could we do to prevent something like that I think there has to be a fact Checker uh take a look at media when you see a movie at the end of the movie there's a disclaimer saying that this movie was fake all the actors are fake this movie from start to finish is fake movies have that and comic books I remember when I was a kid comic books would have a lot of monster stories that that outraged parents parents complain to Congress Congress forced the comic industry to rein in some of the horrible stories it was printing and today there's a comic code that is the comics are self-regulated movies are self-regulated rather than having the heavy hand of some bureaucrat try to ride this issue onto a re-election we're talking about the fact that the industry has to police itself to make sure that the politicians don't police it and ruin everything yeah I'm fond of saying uh because I have a Tesla that uh if I instructed it you know please navigate to LAX in the fastest possible route and it took me up on sidewalks to mow down pedestrians it would be you know a New York minute before the regulatory State jumped all over Tesla and stopped the production right right so technology is a double-edged sword any technology is like that one side cuts against ignorance poverty disease and riches Society but the other side of the sword couldn't cut against people and so this is a very powerful technology you know it's if some a teenager impersonates Vladimir Putin and declares more on NATO uh we're in big trouble and so we have to make sure that it is self-regulated and that's where quantum computers come in well I talked to several computer scientists and they say that a lot of their computers are not up to speed that is fact-checking such a volume of statements being put on chatbots is beyond the capability and so we need a new generation of computers quantum computers that would help to regulate some of the nonsense that goes on the internet so fact checking I think is the way to go yeah I agree okay Quantum Computing let's let's back up a little bit uh Fineman famously said no one understands quantum physics okay a Feynman says that then what hope is there for me none so kind of walk us through what is quantum physics and and what would a quantum computer be like and how would it differ from the thing sitting in front of me here well think of another computer it computes in binary uh think of a spinning top for example I think if you think about it can spin this way but imagine for the moment it could also spin this way and so a spinning top would have two modes up and down which can be related to zeros and one and that's it that's all that we have with computer power now imagine that this thing can rotate and rotate at any angle simultaneously how much more powerful is that how many more states do we have to integrate over infinite number we have infinite number of states that the top can Orient itself surpassing the power of any digital computer which computes one zeros and ones zeros and one and about two years ago there was a race and the con the quantum computer in China and also at Google met a challenge they beat a standard supercomputer at a certain select uh question so in other words we have already achieved Quantum Supremacy that is quantum computers on select problems can exceed the capability of any digital computer wow okay so it's not just a couple of order magnitude faster or or better than a current computer it's essentially infinitely more powerful that's right and just remember that there's a race a race the Chinese are backing what are called Optical quantum computers Computing on light beams in the United States we use electrons uh Google IBM they're Computing on electrons in order to do these calculations and the world economy the world economy could eventually be determined by which nation which company is first to Market a reuse a usable quantum computer so there's a lot at stake meanwhile Silicon Valley could become a Rust Belt you realize that computers are getting uh transistors are getting tinier and tinier at Christmas time this means that your toys are twice as powerful as the previous Christmas that cannot be sustained transistors today or maybe maybe 20 atoms across approximately in a few more years it'll be there'll be five atoms across at that point you get leakage the electron wave falls apart and you get a short circuit so in other words Silicon Valley could become a rust belt well so where would it be or maybe you don't have to have a an industrial center like that anymore well what's going to replace it is quantum computers and guess what guess who's leading the pack they all have groups studying quantum computers Microsoft a Honeywell uh IBM Google all of them have quantum computers prototypes that they're developing in fact in two weeks I'm flying to Santa Barbara compliments of 60 minutes and we'll be taping taping with the quantum computer made by Google now remember that these quantum computers are not ready for prime time they are being sold but in a limited capacity the full blown quantum computer that can outrace any known computer and perform incredible calculations that is still maybe 10 or so years away well I'm here in Santa Barbara Michio so let me know when you're when you're here so we can we can visit uh I'm not far from that com that that Google computer yeah I'd heard about that here how is it that is it is it let me let me rephrase that you know I've been hearing these stories about Ai and and it's going to achieve human level Consciousness you know we're five years away and then the joke is you know and and always will be I remember when Eric drexler's book came out you know about based on fireman's you know there's plenty of room at the bottom paper and how we were going to have these little Nanobots that can you can inject into your body and it cleans up cancer cells and things like that but that hasn't happened is it just because it's a really hard problem and that's a computer Quantum Computing will happen but it's not five years away it's 50 years away and you know how do you you know deal with those kinds of almost sci-fi projections well competing with atoms is really hard if somebody uh slips on the floor burps coughs uh you the vibrations from that cough could ruin the whole calculation that you're doing on a quantum computer how do you get around that we use liquid helium to bring the temperature down to near absolute zero so this no motion at all hardly at absolute zero so what does it look like a quantum computer looks like a chandelier a huge chandelier most of them containing pipes containing liquid helium and other kinds of of coal liquids so it takes time to build these things now the Chinese are using optical computers and so they don't have to bring it all the way down to near absolute zero but you see what the problem is now Mother Nature has quantum computers that compute at room temperature if you don't believe me go outside see the flowers see the leaves they're all doing quantum mechanical calculations at room temperature so we know it's possible but right now we're still using liquid helium and different kinds of coolants to do these calculations so you're right it'll take a while before we work out the details is there any concern about somebody getting a monopoly on this kind of technology or are you comforted by the fact that there's so much competition that nobody could actually control it well it's like a horse race each horse has a different mode of operation the Chinese has said these light beams um IBM Google they use electricity um different companies use different modes because of course they're all quantum mechanical there are many many quantum mechanical devices that Mother Nature has perfected over the eons and so we're in a situation where it's a horse race but just remember that the nation or the company that wins the horse race could control a good chunk of the world economy that's what's at stake the world economy and guess who's interested in this the CIA the CIA and the FBI documents leaked out from the CIA so clearly that they're monitoring the situation very carefully and nist the government that controls standards like the Old National of standards they even issued a directive saying that quantum computers are not here yet but you got to be prepared because when they do arrive they can crack any known digital code the crown jewels the crown jewels of the CIA are up for grabs once a quantum computer is up and running so you see what the stakes are awfully high stakes so the idea of a six-month pause on artificial intelligence is pretty ridiculous because none of the countries working on this are going to pause and none of the companies that are in a race are going to pause so who's who is it that's supposed to pause yeah it's going to be a problem um however a look at comic books look at movies look at a lot of things where copyrights are you know kind of vague they are policed internally and so it is possible but like I said uh it's we have a ways to go before we get a uniform code for the whole industry but every technology has a good side and a bad side every technology without exception including these Technologies and AI so I think at some point AI has to be self-regulated or else the government will regulate it for you and the physics of all this is is it because I don't really understand it um is it possible to have multiple kinds of quantum computers such that there's not one technology that anybody could have a monopoly on because there's different forms of it that's right if you take a look at the variety of things around you it's all Quantum uh nature does not use zeros and ones zeros in one binary nature is strictly quantum mechanical and there are many ways in which you can carry out a quantum mechanical calculation and so it's a horse race but each horse is backing a slightly different version of quantum mechanics and the creepy thing about this is that each one of these modes is Computing in a parallel universe now this means that electrons can be more than one position at any given time now ever since you were a child your parents told you you cannot be two places at the same time well they lied to you it turns out that in the quantum World electrons are always many places at the same time that's just the name of the game in other words why are quantum computers so powerful because they compute unparalleled universes and how many parallel universes are there infinite so Hollywood got it almost right all the Oscars were swept up by the Multiverse but hey what can I say the Multiverse is the arena in which quantum computers operate and then the next question I often get is is Elvis Presley still alive in a parallel universe and the answer is well probably yes there probably is a parallel universe someplace where the king is still building out songs well but it wouldn't be him exactly right it'd be a slightly different version it would be a different version than our version of Elvis Presley maybe maybe he'd be blonde instead of uh brunette or something that's possible you go crazy thinking about this you know when I look in a mirror I realize that I'm not really seeing myself as I really am I'm seeing myself first of all a billionth of a second ago because that's what it takes for light to go from my face to the mirror to my eyes about a billionth of a second but they are infinite versions of me some of which go outside some of which go to the kitchen some of which go into a car or the subway system and here I am thinking that I'm the only game in town that I'm the only me I think we have to revise the word me what does me mean if you can have parallel universes well but these are all at Quantum level effects not at the macro level where we live right I mean whether the moon exists or not I mean is is not an appropriate question for the macro level it's there whether I look at it or not but that's different at the quantum level where the observation does make a difference well I asked Steve Weinberg uh the Nobel Prize winner about this question and he gave this following analogy think of yourself in your living room listening to the radio how many frequencies are there in your living room hundreds of different kinds of radio frequencies are there but your radio has Deco haired from the other frequencies only vibrates in unison with the radio station that you're listening to now replace all the radio waves with electron waves all the possible orientation of electrons so in your living room they are in principle the electrons of dinosaurs Pirates aliens from outer space asteroids from outer space all these wave functions are there in your living room but you have Nico haired from them you no longer vibrate in unison with them so in other words for all intents and purposes you can't visit Elvis Presley it means of course is theoretically possible but it's not practical so for our PhD students we sometimes give them the problem calculate the probability that you'll wake up on Mars now when you do the calculation you find out that you have to wait longer than the lifetime of the universe for that to happen but it's not zero so in principle it may be possible to wake up on Mars however I wouldn't bet on it yeah so here you know you look in the mirror who are you looking at what is the self you know you have this chapter on immortality and that quantum computers could help us achieve that I don't think so for this reason uh I Define the self as your point of view self you looking through your eyes experiencing life from moment to moment to moment there is a break when you go to sleep and you wake up or general anesthesia you wake up but after death it the process is over it's gone a digital copy of you is just that it's just a copy that you're not having you're not experiencing anything you're gone and so your relatives that are saying having a conversation with digital Michio Kaku because we've uploaded all the uh lectures you've ever given and every audiobook you've read and everything about you and your relatives could have a relatively thoughtful conversation with you but you're not conversing with anybody it's just the digital copy of you so that's not you I agree I mean that's like a a question of a digital copy but a Quantum copy a Quantum copy would be more or less identical to you the memories the personality quirks uh the the figures of speech uh they would all be identical to you and you would exist in parallel universes but you cannot enter them because we're very big we consist of what 10 to the 26 atoms approximately that's a lot that's a lot of electrons and so we cannot freely move between these universes like in the Hollywood movies which when all the Oscars uh this year however theoretically it's possible and at the atomic level electrons do it all the time it's called lasers it's called GPS all the wonders of electronic technology are due to the fact that electrons can be two places at the same time now if you don't like it get used to it that's just the way it is okay I understand uh but could you explain a little bit more what D coherence means well everything is made out of electrons and subatomic particles and they vibrate they vibrate at a certain frequency when something vibrates in unison with that frequency then you can make a transition between these objects so in principle if there was a parallel universe right next to you which was vibrating in unison with your parallel universe then you can move between these universes now in practice of course you get D coherence something that's in Phase eventually falls out of phase and you can no longer make the transition between these universes but lasers do it all the time and that's why we call them lasers they are coherent they vibrate in unison with each other so in other words to go to a parallel universe you would have to vibrate at the same frequency as that universe and that is extremely hard to do except at the atomic level where electrons do it all the time and it's called Electronics okay fair enough uh by the way on quantum computers at that very low temperature so at at close to zero there's no molecular activity right so like with crime when I read about cryonics how does this that prevent you from decaying because the molecules have stopped but the atoms don't stop whatever they're doing jiggling or whatever atoms do uh yeah uh because of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle you cannot reach absolute zero absolute zero is not attainable according to the first law of thermodynamics you can get close you can get close uh to within one H bar of zero but you can never reach absolute zero so how does Mother Nature do all these quantum mechanical calculations everything you see around you you know medicine plants food uh the universe it's all quantum mechanical these quantum mechanical things many of them operate at room temperature we can't do that yet because nature is very fast nature is so fast with these chemical processes that atoms don't have time to move and become decoherent and so that's why we have photosynthesis photosynthesis is made possible as a Quantum effect and this is the practical application of quantum computers medicine it turns out that all medicine is at the molecular level cancer Alzheimer's Parkinson's disease why are these diseases incurable because how do we create Wonder drugs we take thousands of Petri dishes put a little bit of poison or these bacteria in these Petri dishes hit it with different chemicals by the thousands and then cross your fingers that's how we make Wonder Drugs That's why it costs a billion dollars to make one wonder drug Mother Nature does it for free we have to learn from Mother Nature and that's where quantum computers are coming in quantum computers we think can create Quantum medicine that is to create for example the disease called Alzheimer's is the disease of the century now we realize that looking at the molecular structure of the amyloid protein there are at least two kinds of amyloid proteins one twist clockwise and the other twist counterclockwise and only the right twist causes Alzheimer's disease the left twist does not which means that if a quantum computer can separate the left and the right versions We may have a potential cure for Alzheimer's disease so diseases operate at the molecular level our computers operate at the zeros and ones zeros in one level we're way behind mother nature and that's where quantum computers can come in yeah that was a thoughtful personal story you told about your mother in the book and uh yeah we baby boomers are going to be experiencing that soon so I hope this Quantum Revolution happens much sooner than the 20 years away and always will be kind of a meme about that um so the problem that you're describing here is that these are hard problems to solve like the problem of Consciousness so-called hard problem of Consciousness in what way do you think Consciousness could be quantum you know there are theories about this Quantum Consciousness that they haven't panned out very well maybe because we don't have quantum computers to simulate it well personally I I don't think you need to invoke all of quantum mechanics to get Quantum Consciousness I think I think for example that there's a Continuum of Consciousness I say that one unit of Consciousness is one feedback loop that understands where you are in the environment like a flower I say that a flower is conscious a flower has maybe two or three units of Consciousness to detect carbon dioxide water and sunlight so a flower has an intelligence of three units then we have an alligator an alligator understands space it has a unit of maybe a few hundred a few hundred feedback loops that allow the alligator to understand where it's located in three dimensions beyond that we have the monkey the monkey has social Consciousness it knows the hierarchy of who's the boss in the tribe who is my friend who can I gang up with so on and so forth that's social Consciousness and then the question is where do we fit in this thing do we have spatial Consciousness do we have social Consciousness what kind of Consciousness that separates us from the animals I say we have time travel that our brain is a time machine they constantly run simulations of the future what do you do when you daydream what do you do when you think about the Future Let's do an experiment talk to your dog tonight and teach your dog the meeting of tomorrow I've tried you can't you can't teach your dog the meeting of tomorrow because their brain does not have the prefrontal rule our brain's prefrontal Road Globe is a time machine that's all it does it looks at different scenarios of the future so I think that intelligence is the ability to simulate many many uh roads to the Future and someone who is not so intelligent only can see the future in a very very crude way a safe cracker a master criminal they can see way into the future because they can stimulate stimulate human behavior and stimulate the future so I think the key to Consciousness is that we have a time machine and animals don't otherwise we're both conscious I say a flower is even conscious as you know two or three units of Consciousness we have maybe a few thousand units of Consciousness as we simulate the future that's my theory I like that I like that a lot what about pants psychism you know this glass of water has some Consciousness although it's very limited I to me that feels like it's going too far I can see your you know the flower has three degrees of yeah feedback loops how many feedback loops does a glass of water have zero yeah and the smallest number of feedback loops would be in a plant that has maybe three let's say three units of feedback loops and then you go up the scale you can give a number a number of how conscious an animal is by calculating how many feedback loops it has in order to create a picture a model of itself in this in this smooth Spectrum up the scale is there a Quantum so to speak leap or just make a giant leap let's say from chimps to humans in which there's something more than a quantitative difference there's a qualitative difference in sentience I don't think so I don't think it's that big because even chimpanzees uh Daydream to a degree it's not much but they do look into the future they do plan and that I think is the Hallmark of our intelligence our intelligence is temporal temporal intelligence um I think that alligators have spatial intelligence I think monkeys have social intelligence but we have temporal intelligence and that's what separates us from them now when we meet aliens from outer space it's often said that they're going to be more intelligent than us now what does that mean I think it means that they see the future much clearer than us they have a better understanding of the laws of nature and therefore they're able to run the videotape run the videotape into the future much more accurately than us so I think that if we meet Aliens who are smarter than us what does that mean to be smarter than us it means that they see the future much clearer than we see the future yeah go ahead the Air Force did a study uh they took a bunch of GIS and they asked them if you're shot down over enemy territory in Vietnam how do you escape and it turns out that the soldiers that had high IQs were kind of ordinary in terms of seeing different ways of escaping but there were some people who had very low IQ that were masters of this they could dream up all sorts of different kinds of schemes by which they can escape and then they realized that well what does it mean the common denominator of the people who were smart was they saw the future but there's different ways to see the future the people who are book smart that that do well on an IQ exam failed miserably to escape from a jail in the North Vietnam so I think it means that we have to be careful that there are different kinds of seeing the future a master criminal may see the future much clearer than the police and evade the police as a consequence because a master criminal can see different scenarios different ways in which the future unravels for them and that's why they are Master criminals well while the police are this left in the dust well you're talking about creativity really there then uh creativity yeah being able to see the future and using the tools using the tools at their disposal like knowing a little bit about Escape Routes knowing a little bit about firearms and stuff like that I think we're like like like Banks hire you know uh criminals or who have conned the banks themselves because they know how to think around the problems that the bank uh tech people can't think of right so I think yeah that that they don't come a denominator is that intelligence is having a time machine in your head but there's different kinds of time machines running the videotape forward there are different ways of doing it legally and illegally for example hmm yeah your intelligence is usually defined as problem solving you know smarter people are better at solving problems I guess that would be a subset of your time dimensionality that's right yeah seeing the future to me is the essence of intelligence you know Mitchell I can't remember if you're a determinist or a compatibilist or a Libertarian free willist or where you stand on that uh and and where does where if you believe in some kind of volition does it come out of this ability to see the future and alter it well I like to think of the way Einstein looked at things um for example he would often be asked is there a God okay and what what does it mean to to Fathom the nature of the universe and so he said that well there are two kinds of God there's the god that intervenes in human Affairs he didn't think that that God was real but he believed in the god of order the the god of Spinoza that the Universe could not have been an accident that is simply too ordered is too well put together to have just been a random fluctuation now most businesses would probably believe that the universe is a Quantum fluctuation we started off with nothing but even nothing's unstable under the under the Heisenberg uncertainty principle through their fluctuations these fluctuations called cause Bubbles and so we have lesser bubbles percolating in the vacuum one day one of these bubbles kept on going and that became our universe so our universe is nothing but one bubble that did not pop back into nothingness but just kept on going as an accident and so anyway the point here is that the fact that the universe is so gorgeous so ordered he thought meant something that there was a higher order order to things that it could have been random we could have been an ocean of electrons and neutrinos that's the lowest state of subatomic particles it could have been just an ocean of electrons and neutrinos but here we are talking about this and of course there are many ways in which you can interpret that so like LaPlace you have no need of that hypothesis for that is God well there could be a God or maybe not a God the point is that physics is based on what is testable reproducible and falsifiable that's science and the concept of God is beyond that it's beyond what is testable falsifiable and reproducible well then why should we believe it or not on what basis uh well it's a personal choice I think at that point uh because of the fact that it is outside of science if science is the set of things that are testable blah blah blah then things that are outside of that are outside of science so I think the question of God is beyond science because it depends on faith it depends upon believing in things that cannot be measured and that means by definition Beyond science yeah but okay so but knowledge is Justified true belief I I don't want to believe things that have to be believed in to be true I want to believe things that are actually true but what's the justification and if you just say there's no justification you just believe it or not well okay but but which God you know or which religion or what whatever ideology whatever there has to be some way to justify the belief or else why bother that's that's oh well just because a human cannot justify a belief one way or the other doesn't mean it's true or false it just means that certain things are not testable and as a consequence uh science says nothing nothing one way or the other because it's not a testable it's not a testable hypothesis so when people ask you are you an atheist or agnostic or what do you say whatever I say I'm an agnostic okay Einstein thought that the Universe was so gorgeous he considered himself to be a child entering this huge library for the first time this huge library and all he could do was take the first book take the first book out and read a few pages of the first book all the secrets of the universe was in front of him do I think that yeah I think that people can pontificate about these things but there's nothing definite science likes to deal with things that are testable so that you can say conclusively it's this rather than that this is beyond science you know um Arthur C Clarke's Third Law and he's sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from Magic so I wrote one of my Scientific American columns about God any sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial intelligence or super far Advanced human AI whatever would be indistinguishable from God that is to say let's run your quantum computer experiment essentially it would be omniscient and omnipotent once it has the technology in engineering to manipulate uh matter if it could create life if it could create DNA self-replicating molecules complete they could compute Consciousness it could create out of black holes maybe new universes and so on isn't that God well there's a joke that one day in the future we create a supercomputer and we ask the question is there a God and the supercomputer says there is now right well yeah but in a way I guess what I'm asking is how would it be testable because if your far future that you write about turns out to be true it would be what most people think of as an omniscient omnipotent being that's what you mean by God and so is oh there it is well believe it or not uh some of my friends who are also theoretical physicists have conjecture what do we what would it be like to be a god that one day we might be able to become a god you see our so-called laws of physics a breakdown at the Planck energy that's 10 to the 19 billion electron volts at that point all the laws of the quantum theory and relatively collapse at the Planck energy which means that if you have empty space just empty space and boil it that is heated to trillions and trillions of degrees at some point it begins to boil just like water empty space will begin to boil boiling of little bubbles began to form and these bubbles are wormholes gateways to other universes and for the most part things pop into existence then pop back into existence and that's boiling water however one of these bubbles just kept on going one day and that became our universe and then the question is can we do that well the short answer is no but the long-term answer is if we can control the clock energy if we can heat up empty space to 10 to the 19 billion electron volts a quadrillion times more powerful than the Large Hadron colliders energy then we might be able to take one of these Bubbles and let it expand to create a baby universe and the baby Universe would pop out into another dimension so we would not see it happen but it would be it would bounce back of course onto our universe and some physicists have done the calculation and they show that it would be equivalent to a small kiloton nuclear weapon so it'd be kind of dangerous to create a baby universe but it's conceivable and so believe it or not we physicists have actually done the calculation of what it would take to become a god that's really funny well because science is only a few centuries old and computer science is only maybe a century old you know if we encounter extraterrestrials they're not going to be within uh you know a time frame like that they're gonna they'll either be way behind us in which case we're unlikely to encounter them or they're going to be way ahead of us by like millions of years so if you take something like Moore's Law which won't apply to your quantum computers but the idea of you know accelerating progress in any technology you know say 50 000 years worth of computer advanced technology or a hundred thousand years or a million years you know you write about this in your books well they should be able to do almost anything we can conceive of which seems like a god well we think that the Planck Energy may be attained by what is called the type 3 civilization uh we mentioned that before a type 1 civilization is planetary controls the weather controls earthquakes and volcanoes that's type one type two controls stars like Star Trek the nearby Stars they control that Star Trek then there's type 3 which is galactic they roam the galactic space Lanes like the Empire Of The Empire Strikes Back and then you do a calculation at what energy scale would it take to reach the Planck energy or 10 to the 19 billion electron volts and it would have to be type 3 which means you would be Galactic which means that you would be on the order of maybe a million years more advanced than us and on that scale some of their powers what can be would be would look like God like I mean if our ancestors years ago were to meet us today they may consider us to be Gods so when we meet them okay and that is a Type 3 civilization that could go across galaxies then we would consider them to be gods that they would be able to harness well quantum computers for example they would be able to manipulate molecules they would be able to manipulate life they would be able to manipulate things that we can only dream of today and however this of course is science fiction but there's no law of physics that says you can't reach the Planck energy yeah that's why I always apply in a Bayesian reasoning way what's called cromwell's Rule Oliver Cromwell who famously said I beseech you in the bowels of Christ you might be mistaken you know never apply a zero or a 100 percent to anything because who knows so I don't want to be that guy that you know 500 years from now believes something ridiculously restricted here in 2023 when it turns out you know we just didn't know about X whatever that is um but still you know you have to assign some degrees of probability at the point you're you know trying to calculate what I should believe or Justify what I should believe by the way um we got distracted from the Free Will determinism because I don't know your position on that it seems to me with the argument you're making for time um time travel so to speak that free will or something like volition or a compatibilist position that the conscious agent who's aware of the future and is relatively aware of the causal vectors blowing in to cause him to go left or right or whatever awareness of those and then altering the future like okay tomorrow I'm not going to do what I did today because I'm aware of the consequences of what I did therefore I'm going to do something different tomorrow this would require that the universe is not predetermined so there's one question for you and do you do you agree with that kind of line of reasoning that something like volition can be derived from that well I think the world is not deterministic that is uh the the Earth the world does not obey laws so rigidly that we are puppets that we are puppets dancing to the tune of some Puppet Masters and that would be like the Matrix where you have a simulation that was programmed by somebody else and we're simply carrying out carrying out whatever the the Puppet Master uh deems necessary I think that's incorrect because of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle in other words if you want to simulate the weather let's take a living room full of air molecules and can our best computer simulate the weather inside your living room and the answer is no our most advanced computer cannot calculate the trajectories of 10 to the what 10 to the 25 atoms in other words the smallest thing that can stimulate your living room is your living room the smallest thing that can stimulate the weather is the weather nothing smaller can do that do I think that there's no Matrix that allows us to be Puppet Masters by which we can deterministically calculate the future for the puppets that we control so I think that it's probably not possible that we are living in The Matrix so if we re-ran the tape of life and played it again not literally on a read-only memory tape but just just started it to run again it's very unlikely you and I would be having this conversation or that something like Homo sapiens would evolve or whatever you know Stephen J Gould's famous thought experiment there's too much contingency and Randomness and Chaos in the system right that's right so and and with the uncertainty principle it gets even worse because now we have infinite number of parallel universes that the universe may have gone into and um and others these other universes probably do exist someplace and so it gets even worse than that so I think that we're not the only game in town this is not the only universe and that maybe the Hollywood movies got it partially right in saying that they are an infinite number of possibilities that we exist in many different parallel universes but there's different versions of that the you know multi what is it the many worlds hypothesis that's different from the Multiverse where there's different bubble universes kind of walk us through some of the different scenarios for multiple universes well it gets back to Schrodinger's cat where I have a cat in a box and the cat is connected to a gun the gun could fire or not fire so how do you describe a cat in a box uh I teach this to my grad students I tell my grad students that I write the wave function for a live cat and then add it to the wave function of a dead cat at that point there's always some kid who raises their head and says what a dead cat and a live cat existing simultaneously and I say yeah get used to it this is just the way it is folks so you add the wave of a dead cat plus the wave of a live cat in a box so he's a cat really dead or alive you don't really know till you open the box okay so how do you interpret this philosophically there are many ways of interpreting it philosophically one is that the Universe split in half that in one Universe the cat is dead in Another Universe the cat is alive the universe itself splits the other possibility is that well you're not allowed to open the box that's illegal you cannot open the box so get used to it you will never never land where you're neither dead nor alive only when you open the box are you alive and that's just the way it is you are forbidden to open the box now most people would say that's stupid why can't you open the box well when you open the box you know whether the cat is dead or alive you can't do that that's not quantum mechanics one mechanics is you don't open the box and then you don't know whether the cat is dead or alive this is crazy stuff okay I mean everything you know about reality that you cannot be two places at the same time everything you know about reality is called into question once you introduce quantum mechanics and with quantum computers it gets even worse because now you're Computing now you're Computing in these multiple universes and so uh what's the attitude of most physicists get used to it but okay I'm slightly confused uh on the one hand sounds like you're skeptical of the Matrix that we're living in a simulation but on the other hand if quantum computers are so sophisticated uh and it created something like a Holodeck how would I know uh well if you take a look at how many states that you can compute okay uh the states of an ordinary digital computer is up and down up and down so you can count you can count how many states are in your living room how many molecules there are and immediately you realize that your computer on zeros and ones zeros and one doesn't have enough states to catalog all the molecules in your room okay so now let's go to the quantum theory in the quantum theory each atom in your room can exist in multiple States well your quantum computer only exists in a subset of those uh atoms you're at your your living room is much bigger than that as a consequence your quantum computer does not have enough states by which to count how many states there are in your living room and so in other words even a quantum computer cannot determine the future exactly um yeah I had David Chalmers on the show here last year he wrote a whole book on the simulation hypothesis and so forth but right at the beginning of the book he says none of this is testable it's like well then okay what is this not really science then it's more like metaphysics or science fiction or something like that I mean if there's no way to know we're living in a simulation although it seems to me because he's he agreed that somewhere there has to be the hardware on which the computer even a quantum computer is running so you could have simulation upon simulation upon simulation like that Star Trek episode the next generation of the ship in a bottle which is my one of my favorite episodes where uh Moriarty Sherlock Holmes character leaves the Holodeck with his sweetheart and and roams through the Enterprise and the and Picard and the crew are trying to figure out how did he leave the Holodeck because it's not possible then we don't find out to the end that he they never left the Holodeck that they're still in there and the Holodeck is running the simulation at the Enterprise and then at the end he wonders well maybe this whole thing is a simulation he says you know computer end program and it doesn't so okay this is the real one but at some point there has to be a cube right a little box of a hardware computer that's running the simulation no matter how many simulations of simulations there are so you'd have to have some you know massive amount of computing power to do whatever it is you want to do and you'd run up against some of the laws of physics then yeah I agree I mean a quantum computer no matter how powerful it is simply mimics the behavior of molecules inside a small volume while your living room is much bigger than that and so even a quantum computer has limitations right by the way there's a little sidebar um on the UAP UFO uh subject when you were talking about all the different companies and countries competing to develop quantum computers nobody's very far ahead of anybody else this reminds me of the arguments that uaps may be super Advanced drone technology or something that the Chinese have or the Russians have or some agency in the government that the other agencies don't know about but that's just not how Science and Technology develops right nobody gets very far ahead of anybody else because they copy each other they steal each other's ideas they spy on each other you know all the cell phone companies are pretty much the same all computers are pretty much the same no one's very far ahead of anybody else and I don't think that's going to happen in AI either so how is it possible that the Chinese or the Russians develop some kind of super anti-gravity technology to explain these brainy videos and blurry photographs of uaps as if they somehow are a century ahead of the United States government the DARPA somehow missed all this the CERN physics assist didn't know about this new physics or something like that that just seems improbable to me yeah I would agree however the Hypersonic drone that the Russians are using against the ukrainians the Russians are more advanced than the United States but not by much two years ago the United States also had a Hypersonic drone program but they canceled it because the Hypersonic drone was unstable a Hypersonic drone Maneuvers unlike most missiles most missiles just use Newton's Laws of Motion but Hypersonic drones to evade a Star Wars program have to be maneuverable and they could very easily spiral out of control and that's why the United States gave up on Hypersonic drones two years ago the Russians kept on going and they're operational now they're being used against the ukrainians so you're right that the edge that Russia now has in Hypersonic drones is temporary because now the United States says okay okay now we got to get in the game and so if the United States is going to be Fielding Hypersonic drones pretty soon so you're right one country does not get ahead of the other now I tend to doubt that our Tech technology was was Savvy was salvaged from a flying saucer that crashed on the planet Earth uh if you were a scientist you know the false leads in all the sweat and tears that went into creating the technology of today but most people don't know that and so they just see the technology when it's full-blown fully mature and they say ah the aliens did it no people did but it was hard work years and years of pain and and false steps to create this technology it wasn't the aliens by that gave it to us you always like those stories about Roswell that that this happened right when transistors were being invented and that the you know the aliens crashed and they have integrated circuitry and we back engineered it from them as if we wouldn't have been able to figure out the transition from vacuum tubes to integrated circuits for computers what you can actually see all of that in the invention uh history of the computer I like Matt Ridley's book on Innovation you know there isn't a single Innovation anywhere of anything that doesn't have predecessors to it they all everybody Builds on everybody else right however if we do one day encounter an alien civilization we should be surprised if their machines operate at the molecular level in other words we went through the Industrial Revolution where we had gigantic steam engines then we went through the electric Revolution where we have electrical appliances then we went through trans the computer Revolution with transistors which are very tiny now we're talking molecules but we're talking about instruments at the molecular level quantum computers and that's the that's the arena of Mother Nature so we shouldn't be surprised that one day we do meet extraterrestrials that their technology is molecular based ours is not ours is based on zeros and ones zeros and ones zeros and ones their technology assuming they exist would be I think molecular and maybe even atomic yeah I always like your argument it's about that if we encounter etis they're not likely to be biological they're probably going to be some kind of computer yeah um if you think about it um in on the planet Earth uh our robots could become sentient who knows maybe toward the end of this century and at that point we should put a chip in their brain to shut them off if they have murderous thoughts but beyond that sooner or later they'll figure out how to neutralize that ship in their brain and at that point they could be a real rival to humanity my point and I'm curious about your point my point is that at that point we should merge with them that is it's a losing proposition that sooner or later they're going to be more advanced than us who knows when we can argue about when that's going to happen but when it does happen why not merge with them why not become Superman and Super women why not explore the Galaxy with super advanced technology why not roam the the world with avatars that can withstand gravitational pulls and toxic atmospheres why not and I think that it's premature for us to say that it's impossible or immoral I think the people of the future will democratically decide to do it on their own they will vote democratically to whether or not to enhance themselves now remember that we've been enhancing ourselves ever since we were cavemen and Cave women with makeup and all sorts of tattoos we've been we've been monkeying with our bodies since time immemorial to gain an evolutionary Advantage so I think that in the future we may want to make the next jump and that's perhaps transhumanism which of course is not going to happen anytime soon but it'll happen democratically people will vote to decide how far to enhance themselves in the future and again this is not for us but it's for our descendants who may want to explore the Galaxy as an enhanced individual I'm 100 with you on that Mitchell I think uh you know this idea of the precautionary principle we better halt all development until we see what possible negative side effects there might be no just continue forward then if something really bad happens then we can intervene I never underestimate the power of the regulatory state to jump in and stop development uh they can do that but let's see if we can cure cancer first I mean I don't know why anybody would object to your your quantum computer idea I mean the idea just going through some of the things in your book about you know feeding 10 billion people and energizing the world and health developments ending cancer Gene editing and so on what's wrong with that I mean you know the idea we should halt because something bad might happen you mean you want to Halt the development of uh like the ending of Alzheimer's I mean come on go forward as fast as possible I even like you know elon's mine link is that the name of his company mind link you know putting chips in your brain you have to be careful about that because you open up the head open up the skull that's very risky uh but you know for like the Cochlear implants that's that's a kind of mind meld thing right and not I have two titanium hips and you know life is better for it so just keep going yeah I think that the digital era that we're in today will be eventually phased out and we'll replace digital is neural and quantum so that is the language of mother nature mother nature does not communicate with zeros and ones zeros and ones Mother Nature communicates with brain waves and also uh at the molecular level that is the Quantum principle that's the language of the universe we are the exception dealing with binary and so I think in the future we will be able to access the human mind and the human mind of course is neural not digital and that we'll be able to replace the the digital networks with Quantum networks and I think that's the flow that's the flow of progress from digital to neural and quantum all right let's hit some of these uh uh areas in which Quantum Computing will change life uh energy um nuclear we got to have nuclear in the equation somewhere I think you agree well last year the uh at the um Livermore National Laboratories in California they attained Breakeven with Fusion gaining as much energy out as they put in and the Europeans are not too far behind they have an advanced Tokamak design uh in Kardash France where they expect to get break even so the point is that a quantum computers can accelerate that process why did it take so long to create fusion power because of instability and hydrogen gas if I have a donut and I try to squeeze a donut then it pops out in different angles it's very difficult to squeeze a donut evenly that's where quantum computers can come in because quantum computer computers can calculate the instabilities and perhaps correct for some of the instabilities so that we have a fusion era and what's there not to love Fusion is a language of the Stars Mother Nature does not use uranium uranium is messy creates waste has meltdowns Fusion has none of the above and so I think that we're going to be entering a fusion era where fusion power is commercially available probably around 2030 2040 in that time frame I think we'll see some of the first commercially available Fusion reactors and also with regards to solar power uh people predicted we should be in the Solar range by now we're not what happened what happened to the solar dream people forget that the battery is the weak Link in the whole chain the battery does not obey Moore's Law it's not does not doubled in power every 18 months as a consequence we don't have a solar age but if super if quantum computers can create a super battery to replace lithium batteries then that would help to speed up the transition to the solar age because when the sun doesn't shine and the Winds Don't Blow you just lost a lot of money and that's the problem with solar power when the sun doesn't shine and the Winds Don't Blow you lose your shirt and so quantum computers can help in that respect and then of course food if you think about food uh there's a process worked out by the the Germans at the turn of the last century where we take nitrogen from the air and modify it to create ammonia which is the ingredient for fertilizer in your body 50 of the molecules of your body are due to this artificial processing of fertilizer that's how important the first Green Revolution is but the first Green Revolution is now running its course is polluting its old-fashioned it uses up one percent of the energy of the planet Earth as huge energy consumption so that's where quantum computers can come in because it's a Quantum process taking nitrogen catalyzing it to become ammonia that is a chemical process that a quantum computer might be able to satisfy so for all these reasons quantum computers can change everything do you think this could be Ray kurzweil's Singularity that he's been talking about since the 90s well I think the singularity you have to be careful the exponential increase of computer power cannot go on forever because of the fact that you're getting smaller and smaller you're down to about you know 20 30 atoms now approximately and what are you down to five atoms the Heisenberg uncertainty principle kicks in and your transistor short circuits overheats and there goes Moore's Law so these projections that by 2045 we would hit the singularity are based on assuming an exponential increase in computer power that's unabated but that's not going to happen because of the fact that Moore's law will eventually collapse so all vents are off when it comes to Moore's Law of the future okay you write about the world economy increasing dramatically because of quantum Computing do you mean just because companies will be so valuable in the products they're producing and so on that'll increase which happens industrially or do you mean something more like cryptocurrency or you know this will give us some kind of new uh Financial system entirely different that we're not thinking of now well the quantum computer could do the opposite for cryptocurrencies cryptocurrencies depend upon codes codes to predict the crown jewels that make the thing work but that's exactly what quantum computers can do they can break digital codes because they're not digital they're Quantum and as a consequence the CIA is very much interested in this some of the documents that leaked out from the CIA showed that yes yes they're looking into this and nist the government agency that does uh that regulates the Bureau of standards they issued a directive stating that we're not there yet with quantum computers but sooner or later it will happen and at that point all the codes can be broken into which means that now now is the time to prepare for the future for the future when quantum computers are powerful enough to break into any code and so we're not there yet but we're exponentially fast in terms of reaching that goal I remember when the first quantum computer multiplied 3 times 5 is 15. that was Earth shaking because that was done on atoms but people laughed people laughed they said what all this hoopla around quantum computers and three times five is fifteen well yeah but now we can calculate on a thousand qubits Quantum bits and we can do calculations in the billions and billions now and so that's how fast the things are moving right now and so the naysayers were left in the dust it's funny yeah although I'm I'm interested in I mean I'm fond of asking people who go on and on about AI is being sentient or whatever you know I'm a big Jeopardy fan so I remember when uh IBM was Watson won Jeopardy against Ken Jennings the great Ken Jennings and the other Champions and but but does Watson know that it won no it doesn't even know it's playing Jeopardy doesn't even know what Jeopardy is doesn't know what a game is it's just it's just an adding machine we forget that these things are adding machines they add millions of times faster than the brain so we think they're conscious but no the bottom line is that they're adding machines they don't have original thoughts they can't they're not creative they can't plan for the future they simply add but they had very fast giving the illusion that they're thinking now they can access the internet where other people have thought about these things and so it looks like they're thinking about these things no some somebody else thought about those things they simply homogenize it cut it up spliced it together and then passed it off as if they thought of it no they didn't think of it at all nicely put all right let's Channel our inner Philip K dick Minority Report you don't write about this in the book but let's apply Quantum Computing to solving crimes for example how to reduce the amount of homicides or gun violence or suicides or whatever could you imagine a far future quantum computer that has enough input that it could predict who's going to commit a crime before they commit it and then we go arrest them before they commit the crime or something like that I personally am skeptical when I saw the movie I said to myself hmm human behavior is quirky human behavior is not rational if it were rational then a computer could have an algorithm by which you can trace these steps by which a conclusion was was made but when it comes to murder for example or committing a crime there's a lot of irrationality involved you have a grudge against this person for example that could interfere with your uh very uh ice-like calculations about what it would take to kill somebody and get away with it do I tend to doubt that we can predict human behavior because well as you know human behavior is quirky in fact I can't even predict my behavior sometimes sometimes I do things that I said to myself what I did that that's really funny yeah that's right all right Mitchell I know you got a hard out coming up and you've got a lot of interviews lined up do you ever you're 73 or four now right something like that and 76 76 so you're yeah you're you're almost a decade older than me ever wish you could live like another Century just so you could see how all this plays out scientifically in other words you know like in 2300 what what are scientists then going to be studying and think oh those people in 2020 there I can't believe they believe that you know what what you know are we approaching the end of science now or is there just so much more to discover in these quantum computers will open up a whole new world well sometimes you get asked the question if you could choose any Century to be born what century would you decide to be born in and if you think about it if you wait if you go away in the past there was so much hardship and and crime and all sorts of problems starvation if you go too far from the future then you're kind of like blase what that's the old hat but if you're at the cusp if you're at the cusp of the exponential rise in technology then every day there's a new Miracle happening every day there's a new breakthrough being made and so I think this is a great time to be alive because we're at the cusp that just in the last century think of what it was like in the last century with world wars Mass starvation millions of people dying and uh we're at the cusp now of an exponentially rise in Civilization so I think this is a great time to be alive well but wouldn't you love to come back and see that we're now a type 2 civilization or something like that just to see what it's like yes but I also realized that you know according to Quantum Mechanics there are many many paths to the Future not just one so if somebody shows me a path to the Future where if things are bright things are great everything's hunky-dory I realize there's another Universe where war broke out an epidemic broke up many millions died and they're equally probable so I would say to myself that it's nice to imagine the future but it's not deterministic the future is yet to be written the future is not created yet nice and that we may have a role in creating that future right and that's why I think now is a great time to be alive because you see all these marvelous things happening right before your eyes it's incredible you know my attitude is the smallest unit of history is the decade anything smaller than a decade to get random fluctuations so you can't really make sense of things history seems random but then if you look at history decade by decade then you realize oh my God tremendous progress every decade just for example after World War II you realize that hundreds of millions of humans went into the middle class I mean think about that this is the greatest economic transition in the history of the earth when hundreds of millions of people in India and China went into the middle class and so we're talking about tremendous changes decade by decade and that's the smallest unit of history in my opinion yeah no I like that I remember that in your book and yeah I agree you know it's like the un's millennial goals one of them is to end poverty in which they Define as making less than I think two dollars and fifty cents a day or something like that I think they projected by 2030 there'll be no more poverty in the world who could have imagined that ever happening right yeah all the predictions of the past sometimes we exceeded them we went faster than some of the predictions of the past right yeah definitely all right Michio here's the book again Quantum Supremacy it's a great read big fun uh lots of great uh examples and stories in here I really enjoyed the audiobook it's subtitled how Quantum the quantum computer Revolution will change everything uh what's your next book Gonna Be You probably haven't quite thought that through but you're always thinking about future books to write yeah I know I haven't decided yet okay I read about so many things I have to say what haven't I written about it usually it's you take the last chapter and go okay that's the next book there's something in there you know gonna build on the path you sort of in your own Innovation history right you kind of build on something else that you've done right all right thanks Mitchell I really appreciate your time really appreciate your work in general you're one of my favorite uh science popularizers who's also a real scientist and oh one last question on String Theory what is the status of string theory you know there's this idea it's not testable so therefore it's not really science or but I don't know much about String Theory well I personally think that one day we're going to find dark matter and there's lots of activity around it and we find dark matter we'll be able to calculate its properties and string theory predicts it predicts what Dark Matter should be like and at that point that's not going to prove it but that'll go a long ways to quelling the the critics of the theory the theory is so Advanced that experiment has not caught up to it therefore it's quote untestable but dark matter is something that is testable in fact there's dark matter in your room right now we can't detect it with our instruments but there's dark matter in your room once we find evidence for dark matter that could clinch it because dark matter is predicted by String Theory it's a higher Octave of this range the fortino and so there it is in the vibrations of the string there's a particle that is invisible that should make up most of the universe and that is dark matter nice right yeah that's my explanation answer to the people that say you know we're at the end of science we've discovered well 95 of the universe is made out of stuff right Dark Energy dark matter we don't know what it is okay I don't think we're near the end no I think we're at the beginning we're at the beginning of this

Channel: Skeptic

Views: 50,024

Keywords: Michael Shermer, Skeptic, artificial intelligence, cancer treatment, chatgpt, consciousness, free will, genetic engineering, multiverse, quantum physics, Science Salon, sentience, The Michael Shermer Show, UFOs, unidentified aerial phenomena, Michio Kaku

Id: 0lsO-dSR-7s

Length: 80min 51sec (4851 seconds)

Published: Thu May 25 2023