Putin ‘gouged’ by Xi Jinping as Russian economy shrinks | Danny Russell

uh xiin ping and the Chinese are kind of lording it over them because now uh compared to five or 10 years ago uh China has grown exponentially in terms of military and economic power uh whereas Russia has really shrunken and is now essentially fighting for its life against its neighbor Ukraine uh to what extent then does this relationship between Putin and z uh X pose a threat to the West what what would No Limits partnership look like well I think that the idea of No Limits between Putin and she was discredited within a matter of weeks when uh Putin turned around and launched an ill-fated uh military attack on uh the Ukraine that instantly bogged down I think the limits to their partnership have uh become pretty clear since then but maybe the way to think about it is as a limited partnership and as a partnership uh where the two countries have uh overlap in uh their own self-interested agendas in many respects I think that their collaboration does in fact pose a very real threat to to the west to the global system to the US to the UK I mean we see both uh China and Russia seeking to weaken NATO and to to drive wedges between the across the Atlantic the Pacific among European Partners uh we see them increasing their military capabilities their own military coordination in the form of exercises and so on so they're they're trying to weaken the credibility of NATO and of the us as a security guarantor we see them coordinating in international organizations in ways that block uh the us and the UK and undermine the the principles of the UN Charter and we see them conducting information and ideological operations in the west uh to undermine liberal democracy as a system so there's there's a lot going on that is not good for us we know that China poses a threat particularly in terms of cyber security but but also dominance of of you know trade we are reliant on China here in the UK as on many other Western countries on on China for um for for specific elements of trade we know that Russia is a threat we know that Vladimir Putin um seems irrational in his opinions obviously he is entitled to them but we know what kind of character he is and that Russia is you know doesn't operate with any level of democracy so we know that both countries are a threat combined where do you put them on the scale of danger to the kind of global World Order let's just spell this out very quickly because I think think some listeners might be thinking well you know we hear about China all the time but ultimately they're no match for us in the west how how dangerous could both the components of China and Russia be well look I think there's an important clue in the fact that it wasn't just Vladimir Putin who came to Beijing it was a a huge delegation from Russia from government with economic and financial experts with defense and Military experts you know that should tell us that what we're seeing is a kind of business conference that's working on upgrading the Sino Russian axis in both the short term and the long term so I think that that means that we should expect that the sum is greater than uh just the the two parts that China and Russia uh working together uh form a more formidable challenge to Global governance to the rule of law to democratic systems to an open uh Global Market than either of them by themselves I mean we shouldn't uh caricature them uh we shouldn't exaggerate but look at the milit milary cooperation that they are um pursuing and that is uh growing for one thing um even though the Chinese aren't taking the risk of selling arms directly to Russia Chinese companies are providing inputs that are helping Putin sustain the war against the Ukraine even more than that develop a defense industrial uh structure that poses a threat to the baltics to Finland to Poland to Nato so that's not just Russia Alone um that combination is quite uh worrisome and potentially yeah powerful look Chinese exp there Financial coordination there's I'm sorry there's Financial coordination as well uh in which they're both trying to undermine the US dollar and insulate against Western sanctions so the better that one of the two becomes in developing these Evas evasive measures the less uh ability the West will have in reigning in either of them by using sanctions and I should say that you know Chinese exports to Russia to illustrate your your your point here Chinese exports to Russia have risen by 60% since the invasion of Ukraine where does the anti all why is the anti-American sentiment emerged to this extent I wonder what the historic IAL context is underpinning this attitude um yeah I wouldn't start by describing it as anti-American I think that uh first and foremost these are two very nationalistic leaders uh authoritarian leaders of uh countries that once enjoyed you know glorious Imperial status and uh have a have a dream of uh restoring their Nations to what they consider to be a rightful place uh in Global Leadership um it so this what they're doing is very much about what they want uh and the US is an impediment along with NATO along with the EU along with uh the Western uh block is an impediment to their being able to operate uh the way that they want yes they feel threatened uh by the us but more importantly um they are threatened to the extent that International institutions hold them and their leaders accountable for the way they treat their own people or the what they do with their neighbors so they're all leninists they see this in terms of struggle uh and even though China and Russia are quite different I think that uh the the hostility and the tensions we're seeing towards United States and towards the West uh aren't really a response to what the West is doing but is uh offshoot of the ambition they have uh to be able to exploit uh the International System without consequence yeah yeah and they there's been you know mentioned today of of of how they both feel um about closed military political alliances in the asia-pacific region uh she says China is is threatened by the development of pro-western groupings such as you know orcus Australia UK and the US which might be soon joined by Japan um could or could they turn on each other could Putin turn on G well you know in many respects they are very unnatural bedfellows it is not an easy fit and Russia and China have um repeatedly uh clashed in their histories uh including in the uh you know the Cold War era where there was a very profound and consequential divide between Moscow and Beijing you know as I've said before I think this is a marri of convenience they are brought together not by any kind of real common ideology or common ambition for Global governance um but uh by by self-interest and that much of their cooperation is tactical you know you see for example that uh the Chinese will not give the Russians um what the Russians are asking for in terms of uh military direct Military Support um because the Chinese are just not going to pay a price for uh any support they give to Putin you know it's interesting that uh XI Jin ping hosts Putin just a week after his visit to Europe yeah France Serbia Hungary yeah yeah and importantly with uh the commission head uh underland so I think you know on the one hand and he is protecting China's equities with the Europeans he's reassuring them that oh China's not really helping the Russians don't you worry now this week he's protecting China's equities with Russia um the geopolitical partnership yeah but I think more importantly is uh for XI Jin ping the reliable access to energy and to Commodities at bargain Bas prices so you can be sure that Putin doesn't appreciate the fact that the Chinese are really gouging uh Russia by getting gas and oil um at below Market rates yeah you can also be sure that Putin doesn't appreciate the ways that uh xiin ping and the Chinese are kind of lording it over them because now uh compared to five or 10 years ago uh China has grown exponentially in terms of military and economic power uh whereas Russia has really shrunken and is now essentially fighting for its life against its neighboring Ukraine look it's been fascinating to speak to you thank you so much Danny Russell vice president for the International Security and diplomacy uh at the Asia Society policy Institute former assistant Secretary of State for East Asian and Pacific Affairs good to speak to you thank you

Channel: Times Radio

Views: 184,672

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Id: MQEyBJB0NJg

Length: 11min 22sec (682 seconds)

Published: Thu May 16 2024