Project SALVO: M198 Duplex Ball Ammunition

hey guys thanks for tuning in to another video on in range TV today I have a box of mystery on a green tip 760 to NATO green tip that's m855 oh wait that's three dollars it's really this is like the opposite of m855 it is this is it's actually a t1 t3 14 III aka m198 duplex ball ammo duplex ball so that means that it's got two projectiles two bullet two bullets one case two bullet so you pull the trigger and you get two rounds well not two rounds two projectile for Gentiles downrange this is a pair of a t3 grain actually solid steel copper jacket with the bullets are solid steel with a copper jacket yep okay and so eighty three grains you're doing 166 combined grains of projectile through them through the ground yep at like 25 26 hundred papers okay so pretty close to 168 172 grain which is three away exactly it basically duplicates as far as the rifle knows this duplicates m80 ball so now this is this reproduction a Moore's that's the real thing this is original made 1964 okay this originally the idea came out of the salvo one and salvo two tests in 1956 and 57 where the US that the government was trying to come up with a way to improve hit percentage you know that's always been a problem in all militaries is that there's just not enough training and marksmanship in any military American or otherwise to get the hit ratio you actually want for around fired yep you know the NRA originally was designed post-civil war not as a political organization but to increase the marksmanship of the northerners who couldn't hit anything right so these guys are probably blasting a lot of rounds downrange at the Vietcong right and not getting that many hits exactly okay now salvo was taking place before Vietnam um but what they found was that your marksmanship wasn't really the most important factor in making a hit or not the factor was how long is the target exposed and how big is the exposed section that's a very good point shitty marksmen could still make a hit on a big target up close that he could see well true great marksman if he sees a little flip of a silhouette he's not gonna hit him so they tested a number of solutions they tested shotgun shells full of flu shots they tested you know rapid burst firing guns so high rate of fire yep and they tested multiple bullets and it's funny when you say the rapid rate of fire you say that with some of the Russian designs going on like the an-94 they're trying to increase they're not trying to make place rounds what they're trying to do is just increase the rate of fire to be so fast that you have a better a better chance of hit probability with one one pull of the trigger exactly if this stuff still going on in the 90s this was still going on with the hkg 11 okay so what they came up without a salvo was the most effective the most cost effective and the best overall solution was a duplex bullet they did actually try XXX oh I think I've seen pictures of even a four bullet yeah the thing with duplex was you've got better ballistics because your bullets are light but think about dividing a hundred and sixty five grains three ways you're getting like 32 ACP projectiles yeah this is a little bit better than that and this can be done without modifying the firearm at all so in the magazine chamber and fire it right when you get three bullets now you have to have a longer case neck to support the front bullet does it modify the zero I have no idea so that's the thing I have not found any information on people actually shootings yeah how what is the dispersion how does the dispersion happen if you got two projectiles right next what makes them do something separate well the front projectile they're not quite identical okay one projectile actually has a recess in its base that the back projectile noses into so it's kind of like that Hollow baseball it basically got it and then the rear bullet has a flat base but it's not perfectly parallel it's actually angled slightly interesting that angle was there in theory to force dispersion now I think that as that second projectiles leaving the barrel as the gas is venting behind it that little angle actually acts to push on it and cause it to turn maybe that's my thinking so if you have an angle in the back and the gas hits it it's gonna kind of kind of make it do something yeah so do you know of what distances they actually start seeing dispersion no clue whatsoever is why we're out here today that's what we're gonna test now one other thing that came to mind late you said this has an 83 gram bullet at 25 something yeah that sounds like it's gonna have a deficient deficiency in terminal ballistics probably unless you get both hits on the target probably but I think the idea was any hit on target is good enough certainly you know any hit on targets better than no hit on target right so what are we gonna do out here today so we have a big cardboard target out there currently at 25 meters it's two terrorists bad dudes yeah I've got a green tape X right in the middle okay so I'm gonna be shooting at it with my spur brethren arms left-handed g3 and that thing is currently zero to hit exactly dead on has a perfect job I mean you can shoot the center of that X yeah so if you don't hit the center of that X with this it means that there was a zero deflation right and so I don't know if this is how this will change the zero so we'll find that out and I don't know what the dispersion is gonna be I honestly don't know whether to expect one oval hole at 25 yards or 12 inches apart this is really interesting and I can't find any sources online from anyone who's ever actually tried it well in ranges bringing it to the table absolutely now once we do 25 yards we're gonna assuming we have not too much dispersion we're gonna stop stepping the target back in theory maybe as far as 150 or 200 if we can do it and just see what happens all right start with the 25 meters all right 25 yards I have three rounds in the mag because I'm also curious to see if this cycles the gun it should there we go let's go take a look alright so 25 meters you aimed we're right here alright so the zero is a little different a little bit now this was offhand it wasn't a perfect shot for zero I was like you know is it gonna be up here over here that's what I was really looking at this is you know the next round will do prone and I'll hold it dead-on and make a more careful shot now I'm surprised to see we already have quite a bit of separation to fit a quarter two and a half inches two and a half inches so at 25 meters 25 yards close enough you got a two and a half inch dispersion out of this duplex round well I think that's pretty freakin cool I was gonna say if you were a rifleman though at that distance one shot would have been as good as two this is not increasing your hit probability is it probably not so much not at this distance yeah but man you've got to wound channels now this is kind of interesting yeah alright so what do you think 50 or 100 let's go to 50 and do Prohm alright next shot 50 and if it stays consistent this should become what 5 yep let's find out cycled again let's go take a look alright so here we are at 50 meters still on target this was a much better more careful shot right there and we're a little bit high I would say you're just getting an elevation change not really windage gene that's yeah we got a hit there and a hit there what are we looking at three and a quarter not quite double what you got at 25 all right so we're not going double each time so now let's go to 100 yeah and see if we get absolutely I'm sure there's plenty of variation in in the dispersion I suspect there is I guess I shouldn't say anything at this point three two quarter straight up three at a quarter so we went from two and a half to three and a quarter by going another 25 meters this is absolutely doubling I mean those are two Lewin channels and that could have increased your chances of getting a hit especially if you got a friendship maybe one would go by it when we get a hit exactly this kind of looks like this is actually turning out to be a thing that's the idea all right let's try a hundred hundred let's go take a look at that one now things are starting to spread out now we're seeing something legit we got one there which was the point of aim yeah and one there Wow 10 inches and inches alright ten inches on a hundred meters alright some people are gonna look at this and go oh now it's worthless actually I think exactly the opposite now that we've got this much dispersion now this stuff is actually at a point where I can do what it's intended to do well let's think about this we went from two and a half to three and a quarter to ten inches so a 200 is probably gonna be quite a bit right at two it might be I could aim here and get one miss and one hit this appears to be what it said it would do let's go ahead and get up and let's have a conclusion about this okay alright could it actually be that this actually does what it says it does I think it does I think we've pretty well just showed that it does you know I think past a hundred you start actually deprecating the capabilities of an actual marksman right but you increase the capabilities of an average soldier firing at something in the distance that he just noticed and dumping a couple rounds exactly which is what they were trying to do you know what even a marksman yeah I think because you're this isn't about shooting a bull's-eye this about shooting a fleeting moving target this is so much different than the standard American concept of one shot one kill think about it this way what if you see a guy go behind a bush put one or two rounds of this in you've got twice that's a situation where it doesn't matter what your fundamental marksmanship capability is you don't know where the guy is in that bush yeah I can fire one round and have one random chance to hit and fire one of these and have two random chances to hit I would say though that you did hit the point of aim with one of the two projectiles meaning that you'd that's true aiming mattered yeah it wasn't just spray-and-pray but the reality is with a tennis dispersion let's say there was two guys next to each other you might have got ball the home we came real close to getting both of these guys on this shot came close or if the guys moving you have if he was going to the left that one round that went 10 inches the left even though you didn't lead him you would have a chance of getting them with that one round yep but I wouldn't reject I'll let me say that properly I think some people are gonna look at this and talk about like yeah they're dead just died I think some people are gonna look at this and start coming up with plans about like well you know one's point of aim and one's high and to the left so you plan the point of this is when you're not able to pull the trigger on a perfect shot in the first place it kind of gives you a right but kind of gives the rifleman I know this is not a fair now anybody kind of gives the rifleman a beat zone exactly that's that is the purpose pop-up and then a whole bunch of rounds go into the general area and the probability of a hit on anything in that area is much greater yep so there are a couple read these guys so there are a couple reasons why this stuff didn't ever go into service well it did you said it wasn't service true it didn't get a formally adopted and kept right okay so there's a reason they didn't stick with fair and in fact the amount that went into service was basically large-scale troop trials they're you know two million rounds of ammunition sounds like a lot until you've got guys dumping it in belts through m60 and then it goes kind of fast sure Oh in an m60 Matt is that you're doubling you're not increasing the rate of fire but you're doubling the amount of rounds down projectiles down right yeah yeah so there are a couple from what I can tell official definitive reasons this got dropped okay and probably the biggest one is cost this is substantially more complicated to manufacture than standard ball you've got two different bullets because they're not the same bullet so you have to make you know you've got a double up your machinery for the bullets and there any like I said and then being a the the process for actually seeding bullets two of them properly in one case is a lot more complex than one round of any so it was a lot more expensive to make and I by the time they were ready like had data back and ready to make a decision Vietnam War was kind of rolling down and it's like do we is it is it worth are we getting enough benefit from this that it's worth the extra cost especially now we're trying to trying to reduce our our involvement here I suspect at the same time and this isn't written down anywhere but it makes a lot of good sense there's a lot of resistance to this from the old-school military brass because how on earth you're supposed to shoot it can't parry with that Oh exactly and so much of the American rifle Doctrine is actually even military doctors based on competitive shooting yeah it really yes and and in the u.s. in particular we have this tradition and history and mythos of the individual marksman one shot one kill that's wise directly in the face this is very insulting to that idea the idea that your accuracy is fine but we're actually better with random chance than we are with your marksmanship which when you think about what the Soviets did with the a K and making it a submachine gun they were kind of in that path I know that the Soviet doctrine was to run in full auto and do short controlled bursts which is not an individual round but the chances a hit probability goes up with a couple rounds downrange we're doing this with individual projectiles with a duplex load yeah I think when you think about in terms of combat efficiency that's makes a lot of sense I think it does now I suspect there was also an issue with ballistic effectiveness probably especially in machine guns where they're shooting deliberately at longer range and sure because you've only got a little stubby 83 grain bullet it's not gonna it's not gonna do so well at long well like our little stubby 62 grain bullets or shooting now you mean well yes but those have a much better b/c they do because they're designed to be specifically designed for the building coefficient these are weird projectiles that have a yeah fair enough these are very inefficient the other thing I would say to that is that with the transition from 308 to an intermediate cartridge 5-6 duplexing up five by six is having 231 round bullets makes no sense at all you really have to be 30 caliber or above to have this make any sense yeah so that's another thing that might have been you know a deaf Neil here as well when you talk about the 60s that's when that started really really happening that's a good point yeah I wasn't thinking about that yeah so I think that's part of it yeah how this is fascinating though so I'm thrilled this went and I I didn't imagine it would go anywhere near this well so we started implementing bucket ball in Vietnam ballin ball yeah ballin ball I'm really impressed this legitimately does perform as it said it would and I really do think that this would improve your capability of a hit in the field yeah I like it fascinating cool hey guys you like this kind of stuff but hopefully this isn't really the only kind stuff you find in range I haven't like I said at the beginning I can't find any actual data on people using this stuff anywhere so we had to do it ourselves now there's some yes if you like this kind of stuff please consider supporting us on patreon this is not cheap no that is about 20 bucks around okay so you just saw a lot of money go down range yeah and it's because of patreon that were able to do that it's you guys that support us financially that makes it happen because we have advertising money from nobody we are not centrally we are distributed we are not centralized on YouTube we're on multiple different attribute networks you can find us all in range TV your patreon supporters live if you can't do that please subscribe and share with your friends thanks for watching you

Channel: undefined

Views: 212,006

Rating: 4.9607992 out of 5

Keywords: project salvo, salvo, m198, duplex ball, duplex ammunition, M16, M14, inrange, inrangetv, forgotten weapons, kasarda, mccollum

Id: gO4g8GNXYrY

Length: 14min 34sec (874 seconds)

Published: Fri May 24 2019

Reddit Comments

[u/meccano300]

This would be fairly interesting to have in the game, especially with long distance engagements or like in the video even 25 yards it makes things more interesting