Post Office: why did it take an ITV drama to galvanise us? | James O'Brien - The Whole Show

this is LBC from Global leading Britain's conversation with James O'Brien 3 minutes after 10: is the time and you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC I I suppose we should start with the May are Kula shouldn't we we should we start with the uh reasons why we didn't do more on it and and I think I know why I read private eye religiously um every fortnite I'm a subscriber so it drops through my letter box in a plain white envelope and few things bring me more of a of a frison of anticipation than than the arrival of what is pound-for-pound by far the finest journalistic Outlet in this country also it's largely free of comment journalism it's basically jokes and Revelations jokes Revelations and Mickey takes there's a little bit of comment in there of course there is but but if you look at your average organ these days I suppose with the exception of the of the economist every it's wall to- wall opinion slightly odd position for me to take given that my job is basically offering you my opinions every morning and uh and cassing yours but in terms of the uh in terms of the the the sort of wider Vista of media outlets in the course of Our Lives the the the segue the shift from being largely news Le and news driven which is expensive it's expensive to do news to being opinion Le and opinion driven is quite spect ular it's one of those things you don't really notice until you take a moment to step back from the frey and just consider how much things have changed younger people uh looking at a young colleague now will be unaware of the days when the news agenda was dominated by news rather than by opinions rather than by arguments everywhere from from you know the BBC um onwards it essentially books people to have an argument these days entire television stations have been founded based upon putting forward one side of an argument and doing that their level best to to stifle the other what would have been the mode or the format of of the radio phon in has now essentially partly because it's cheap has now essentially in the context of newspapers and television um has become the the sort of central platform of of most media coverage it's part of the reason why we spend so much of our lives at each other's throats isn't it um and private ey manages to somehow rise above that Fray and it does extraordinary investigations we we've invited private ey journalists into the studio Richard Brooks's work on the on the PPE contracts preceded uh much bigger coverage elsewhere and and I've always struggled really with the idea of um why it doesn't have a louder voice as it were because it it does hundreds of thousands of copies per issue it's it's I think the most successful magazine in the country it's certainly up there and it does stories like the post office scandal the the the postmaster the sub postmaster scandal in incredible detail and it does something that most media doesn't do it stays with stuff for months or years when the late great Paul foot was on the paper was on was on private eye they they just refused to let go talk about a dog with a bone that's the kind of Journalism that I don't think really with a couple of Glorious single issue exceptions it does the kind of Journalism that doesn't really happen anymore used to be normal insight team at the Sunday Times used to be normal to to put journalists on a story for months without any guarantee that they'd get on the Telly or get into the into the actual paper dull grinding work sometimes in in pursuit of detail Scandal and Revelation and so I um I I I remember reading about the post office Scandal and I think we had one go at doing it but we didn't get the calls so you can't go back to it we're a little bit limited on this program W with what we can do in retrospect huge mistake reading these stories about people having their lives turned upside down because they were held responsible for errors made by a computer program and the point at which so many people were being prosecuted and and and criminalized and jailed and yet the post office's position was still that the uh individuals were to blame that there was a sort of familial fraud there was a culture of fraud among sub poost Masters that was robbing the country blind for for decades and the attitude the post office took to it and their political Masters took to it was that it's no it's it's not remotely anomalous it's not remotely shocking it's not remotely surprising that hundreds if if not you know thousands of people have all been found to have been ripping the post office off for years while they all insist they all insist to to to the to the prison Gates they in insist that they have done nothing wrong and that it must be the um the technology more than 700 sub post Masters were convicted between 1999 and 2015 an accounting system called Horizon made it seem as though money was missing from their businesses of those 700 only 93 convictions have been overturned if it wasn't for a man called Alan Bates one of the lead claimants and a representative of the justice for sub Masters Alliance it's it's possible that none of this would have seen the light of day that the that the that the victims would still have their plight unregarded unreported uh Rishi sunk has uh suggested exonerating all of the convicted parties 60 or 70 of them I have to tell you have died so far um and you also have Partners husbands wives who are ill or dying as well as the individuals involved it's been going on for years he says and it shouldn't be allowed now the extraordinary thing about this and I've I've offered up my own uh inadequate apology the the reason why we didn't do it more despite the fact that I was reading private eye regularly was that it doesn't work as a phonin if these people particularly if they've been prosecuted or they are being prosecuted are not allowed to talk to me but why the story and it was taken up I mean I think Radio 4 did something on it belatedly but um I I I don't have the capacity really to explain to you why something so huge and you can tell how huge it is and you can tell how impactful it is by the response in the last week to the drama starring Toby Jones and Julie hmond hch and the accompanying documentary I mean it is it is it's actually almost unbelievable and as Alan Bates says uh it shouldn't be allowed and it it took the drama to exert the political pressure former post office chief executive called Paul vels remains a CBE a commander of the British Empire an enormous petition is in place to uh strip her of her title um the Justice secretary is now looking at the things that that were described to the Prime Minister on the telly yesterday and and he added the Prime Minister added it's right that we find every Wich way we can to try and make this right for the people who were so wrongfully treated at the time he also said something about it all happened in the 1990s when as anybody who's been paying the vaguest bit of attention would know that this was actually happening right up until 2015 it didn't the convictions themselves didn't start until 1999 so sunak once again demonstrating that he's just not very good at politics um um one former postmaster uh speaking yesterday to the BBC described being pursued through the courts paying hundreds of thousands of pound and then went bankrupt the victims he said are traumatized it's been a long time 25 years 135 million has been paid to some of the victims but we've had £150 million plus paid to lawyers and this is the point I think that perhaps lies at the heart of the problem we are just normal run-ofthe-mill people we have legal people with us but it is so difficult and it is like a war those are the words of Lee Carleton former postmaster victim of the Scandal while uh most of your newspapers were busy shouting about refugees or Brussels or I don't know single mothers or unemployed people sub postmasters up and down the country were being criminalized in quite extraordinarily awful ways um the great Post Office trial on Radio 4 touched on this but did didn't get anything like the movement that this ITV drama has received and as I say private eye has been banging this drum with Incredible accuracy and indefatigability for pretty much the entire period of time under discussion so you now know the facts whether you've watched the drama or not um whether you're across all of the details or not doesn't really matter you you have a a scandal affecting hundreds of people a dodgy accounting system made by U Jitsu um was responsible for creating the illusion that hundreds of sub post Masters had been stealing money from the post office and while they all screamed their innocence to the prison Gates they were all ignored you live in this country you were living in this country when this happened you are living in this country as this unfolds just take a moment this morning to explain to me why you you think there's also a journalist called Nick Wallace who who has been who I think we have spoken to on the program who who has been pursuing this with extraordinary rigor and vigor but until it became an ITV drama the needle barely moved and that's what I want you to talk to me about because I I mean I do this for a living I talk about stuff in the news I make decisions every day on what's likely to engage you and what matters I can't quite get my head around the fact that it took a drama it took a dramatization of a fairly well reported Scandal or be it not reported with the same Vigor that some news outlets report um I don't know parking tickets e bikes and uh whatever the flavor of the day story is to to to wind you up it was it was fairly well reported in grown-up media and yet it has barely impacted acted at all more broadly until ITV made a drama about it and that's all I'm going to ask you and and I want you to tell me why how how did this happen in your view you don't have to be remotely connected to the story you just need to understand what television is and what a false conviction is how how did this happen and obviously if you've got skin in the game if you or or or someone you care for or know was caught up in this hor horrible horrible story a word on what it was actually like would be fascinating would be worth its weight in gold I I I would very much welcome that 0345 6060 973 is the number that you need remember richy sunak as someone's just pointed out in a in a text that I don't think is signed richy sunak was jumping up and down to get involved in Nigel farage's banking Arrangements but on this he said absolutely nothing until ITV turned it into into a drama just use that as a way into it if you would the prime minister of the United Kingdom is more concerned about the personal banking Arrangements of the most stubborn skidmark on the Underpants of British politics than he is about 700 honest taxpaying workers being criminalized prosecuted and traumatized for crimes they did not commit and he doesn't get his finger out until it becomes a drama on ITV so there questions for the media to answer but the Tories have been in power since 2010 uh the convictions and the unfolding Scandal has been unfolding for the duration of that period what was it like to be involved and crucially how do you explain this to yourself never mind to me how do you account for the fact that until it was a drama on ITV in the week after Christmas nobody really cared 0345 6060 973 James O'Brien on LBC James O'Brien on LBC you know you send me stuff and I I sometimes think I better just check that I can't just read that out cold on the uh on the radio um but it's true I'll just read you this another prolific donor Simon blagden was made a member of the UK HSA Advisory Board in April that's sort of Health Service position since 2005 blackden and companies he has associated with have donated £3 376,000 to the conservatives these include pus limited airm he was director of from 2000 to 2020 and a partnership limited which he has been a director of since 2014 he was also a chairman of Fujitsu UK which sued the NHS over a failed it project a parliamentary committee's inquiry into the debacle in 2013 cited reports that a sum of 7 7 00 million was sought from the Department of Health um and I I don't know what his involvement is or was with Fujitsu and regard to the Horizon accounting scheme but it was false within that accounting system that made it seem as though money was missing from post office businesses when it was not so when Fujitsu were unhappy with the NHS over the failed implementation of an IT system they sue for a reported 700 million when fugits who are responsible for a faulty accounting system that leaves 700 sub postmasters convicted of crimes they did not commit well there's a lot of them still waiting for the money funny old world isn't it 20 minutes after 10 is the time Richard is in chelsford Richard what would you like to say oh hi um my daughter was involved in this she ran a um a sub post office in a North essic Village I'm not going to name it CU she still gets a lot of hassle from it um and every week she was uh short on on money never went the other way it was always short on money um to one point she actually ran the post for herself for the whole week because she thought it was staff taking money and she watched that program last week she said that was me dad I was on the Flor and it's all the paperwork and could never make it head up starting when Richard roughly can you remember oh no I can't honest don't worry um it's not exactly Frost Nixon is it so far this exchange I can't remember either but go the the point being that she knew something was up and she knew it wasn't her but she didn't know what it was no and she'd found them up she found the helpl line and she get told she's the only one and um but what they did they put the money in their themselves so they never got convicted because their money was always correct so she made up the shortfall she made up the shortfall out the profits from the shop cuz it was also a shop and um a husband's wages and in the end they closed the post office and that's when they got a lot of abuse from The Villages because they said why you closing it and they could and even up to this day somebody said to her last week uh in the local co-op went up to her and said did you see that program shame you wasn't caught up in that meaning that they wanted her to have more trouble in her life yes they wanted her to keep the post office open so they could go and then byy a pint of milk of paper every week and uh but this is extraordinary isn't it and and and her story has not been T well her personal story specifically has not been told but the experiences that she underwent and I think crucially well and I've heard this a few times now while being told by the post office that she was the only one it wasn't happening anywhere else when they must have known that it was not least because 700 convictions ensued she she that's the bit I don't get Richard that's the bit where can't see the spark jumping from one plug to the next one when when that that number didn't make anyone at the post office think the problem might be at their end no that's right and she's I mean she got some compensation about a year ago but she had to sign a non-disclosure agreement not to talk about it okay even then that last year and that that is going to be part of this as well so you and I both I suspect have a sense that for all the uh Revelations and all the impact of this ITV drama in the accompanying documentary there's a lot still to come out oh yeah definitely yeah why why briefly why do you think how do you account for it because you know your daughter you know she's as honest as the day is long you you you knew that this was not right or fair but did they just keep a lid on it themselves they just quietly got paid it off themselves closed down the post office counter because they couldn't afford to keep subsidizing the accounting errors and probably didn't even come to you didn't even come to dad with it that much because that's that's not how people they don't to St me we haven't got any money yeah um and we closed the post office um and because the villagers then got an order on it um to to keep a shop in the village we opened it as an off lion and then that like that for three or four years and then uh um closed it when the council took the order off it is so that I mean that's the perfect First Call in a way I'm sorry that your daughter your family had to go through what they've been through to prove it but this is not contained within orbe it that she's now received compensation she didn't end up in court because she was paying it off from her own I wonder how many more sub postmasters were paying off the shortfall from their own income from their own taxed income in order to keep the you know keep keep the problem at bait that must be so strange goodness knows how many people are doing their tax returns at the moment you know how complicated it can be and how difficult sometimes but when when the two columns just simply don't tally you've got more you've got you've done everything that's come in and the numbers that that that you're being told should have come in is considerably higher than the number that has why has it taken an ITV drama for this to capture the imagination of the nation 25 minutes after 10 and why does rishy sunet care more about Nigel farage's personal banking accounts than he does about 700 wrongfully convicted sub postmasters it's funny that don't forget he was Chancellor before he was prime minister shalish is in pearly shalish what can you tell us oh hi James been listening to your program for many many years great program and now here you are finally onen it it's the big time shist don't blow it right okay so I uh just a bit of background on me I I uh worked in ID for many many years for a very very large corporate uh uh company okay very familiar with uh with the with with the it um did not been a been a programmer at at one point myself so you know there's nothing about it that phases me really sure anyway the family uh owned a uh post office uh in clam okay since 888 we then had another one in pearly and we got we had another one in twickham so you know we've been we and we still got a post office in PE at the moment right all I can say to you is James this software that we're still using currently is still dodgy it hasn't been changed well I can't I can't double check that and I've got no reason to doubt what you're telling me but but what what what what what is not controversial is your account of what the dodginess historically involves so we heard that Richard's daughter would notice the shortfall and make it up herself yeah and and we're still doing that currently I mean uh you know uh the post office cannot say you don't know how to run the the the accounting software because we've been doing it for 30 years um the the software would Pro up an anomaly once in a while it's not a huge amag like the other postm this body would be 15 20 quid 100 quid you know 20 and we just say you know we look through the accounts we can't find anything what we're going to do we'll take the money out of our pocket put it into the post office and then the accounts will balance and then you know we're off for another week with that with with the balancing so this is an ongoing thing with most postmar what what what what did I mean how do you answer that question that's running through the program this morning why has it taken this television program to to light a fire underneath an issue that was quite widely known and quite widely reported James the fact is that people don't care at the end of the day but they care today well they do today because they've seen the reality of what what the post office has done to post Masters we who are in the post office have known that this has been happening for a long time yes and yeah there been there have been lots of post Masters up and down the country who tried to get this agenda on the front pages of newspapers but people have not been interested he doesn't sell newspapers it doesn't sell newspapers although private ey as we we have already discussed and we'll discover further shortly is as as you know continues to be a very popular organ and has covered this fairly well um thank you is that part of the reason why you let go of the post offices in in Clapham and Twickenham because of the well no one of the reasons is I've come to uh I've come to an age where I'm going to retire soon taking it easy Shay she kicking back a bit I don't know about taking it easy mate we've been absolutely maning the pace office the last couple of weeks just of course you have of course just one other thing uh James people don't seem to realize is the post office management screwed the Past Masters for thousands hundreds of thousands of pounds yeah and what they're doing now is doing the same thing now what they're saying to existing post Masters is you know it's cost us hundreds of Millions for this court case and now we're going to make you pay for it because we're going to take it out of your renumeration in the future uh yeah well and and and that's why this does not have the feeling of a of a fat comple does it it doesn't feel like this chapter or indeed this story is over in some ways it's only just beginning and the case of Paula venel is is is is proof of that particular pudding one Minister saying yesterday she should lose her CBE it's disgraceful what has happened to these people to which you cannot help but respond you've been in power for 4 14 years a second cabinet minister said that if Miss venel did not willfully give up her honor then she should have it removed she willfully obfuscated and sought to defend the indefensible and that is just not honorable or becoming of the office said a cabinet minister to the Daily Telegraph um speaking of conservative politicians and indeed honorable you'll never guess who is uh going to fight you remember Peter bone do you remember Peter bone thank you Tes take care mate do you remember Peter bone Tori MP had to um was a recall petition wasn't it after he was found to have uh sexually harassed junior members of staff you're never going to guess who has been selected to fight that seat for the Tories in his constituency seriously you're never going to guess so I'll tell you after the headlines with Thomas watch James O'Brien on LBC James O'Brien on LBC it's 10:33 a lot of messages like this from Steve who's in Whitney I worked in a shop that had a post office inside it we had six different branch managers in about 18 months they all spent ages trying to end the week balancing the books none of them could it appears to make a lot of sense now um indeed it does Richard Brooks is an investigative journalist at private eye magazine which uh whose Praises I have been singing all morning not least because they were across this story before it was fashionable and uh and Richard joins me now back I think in about 2011 Richard when private I started covering this issue when and how did you begin to appreciate the unprecedented scale of the problem uh well it was uh good morning um yeah back in 2011 we uh we first uh picked up on this story and I was just looking at the piece we wrote actually just before speaking to you um and uh it came as you probably mentioned uh computer Weekly Magazine who had written some pieces about the story from about 2009 um Nick Wallace had done a couple of programs for the BBC local investigative program um and having discovered a a cluster of cases I think in in the Southeast and the Sur and Hampshire area um including Joe Hamilton who who was uh so prominent in the in the drama um and and he said to us you know you you um hang on maybe you should take a look at this as well so um so we did we we'd spent years writing about Dodge e programs um you know it dating from the sort of mid90s where almost every government department or public body decided that they'd solve all their problems by throwing billions more Millions at um at it companies um which is what the Department of Social Security had done uh with the with the post office um and they they had this botched IT contract on their hands they wasted about 700 million quid um it was it was a complete write off but uh the government decided the new labor government at the time decided that they they needed to salvage something from from the mess and um and that is what the Horizon system was so you know from from the word go word go it was um a bit of a disaster did you or would you have expected and and I'm glad you've mentioned computer weekly and and and and Nick Wallace um did did did there come a point and I know that you're a you're a sober Bunch over at private eye but did did there come a point where you were frustrated or surprised that it hadn't picked up wider momentum yeah uh right right for right from the outset really by the time we were looking at it Alan Bates had already got together um quite a large group of sub poost masters with the same problem um you know I mentioned the first piece we wrote and in that we were quoting James R bunot the MP who was sh then MP Joe Hamilton's MP who um who was saying you know it can't be right that all these postmasters are dishonest you know it's either them being dishonest or a dodgy computer system I know which one I suspect um and there's also a line in that first piece we did saying Ed Davey who Postal Services uh Minister simply washes his hands at the affair so that's and that that's continues to try to do so as well really doesn't he I mean exactly exactly so this was the point this was the shocking thing at the time that despite all these cases the government was just um it was washing its hands of it it was it was just taking post office's word for what was happening um and post without any skepticism without thinking oh well post office would say that they've got a massive interest you you think there'd be a threshold wouldn't you you'd think well hang on I mean maybe there were 50 dodgy sub post Masters out there but I can't believe there's 100 or 200 or 407 or 700 or but there never was there was never a point at which antenna antenna within the post office or within government started twitching no they they only had to look at their statistics their own statistics on prosecutions U I haven't got exact numbers here but they shot right up when Horizon came in um you know so there was no sort of reality check there saying have people suddenly got dishonest you know one one of the shortfalls somebody had was a million quid yeah you know I mean and they were they were turning over you know a few thousand pounds a week you know it was crazy it was it was pretty clearly obviously the it system even if you didn't know about the bugs yeah but of course inside they actually did know about the bugs um you know the rest of us outside was sort of scratching our heads thinking you know come on what's going on here this can't be right how do you personally uh feel about the impact that the drama has had because I'm I'm glancing I've got all the screens in my studio which you visited Richard you know what the studio looks like yeah so we've got all three news channels running they've all got three different sub postmasters telling their Story I mean it has absolutely exploded even rishy sunak was talking about it yesterday orbe it that he got the dates a bit mixed up I mean there must be an element of better late than never for you but also an element of good grief you know yeah why does Toby Jones succeed where we have failed yeah yeah yeah um I mean yes of course it's great to see that um this this may be accelerating the process of justice for for hundreds of people let's let's hope it does um but yeah as you say it is a bit depressing that um all this information has been out there for years um and it's taken a drama M to to Mak people realize it's important I mean that is a bit of an indictment of our government certainly certainly the current government you know it's it's not as if it was just private eye and computer weekly and the others who've been writing about this for years for the for several years there's been some very good coverage of this in like in the Tory house newspaper in the mail Tom withough in the mail has written some great stuff uh over the last few years so they've they've known full well about it it's been right in their face um but for some reason it takes it takes a drama I think there's something about the drama obviously makes the victims of this very human you just can't ignore it um and I think it what that says is that they were actually dehumanizing these people yes before that was put right on their TV screens um you know these were people without very loud voices workingclass people and big bureaucracy to a big bureaucracy and a government they were just a bit awkward it was very messy doing anything would obviously open things up and create a bit of a stir so um it was much better just to try to fob them off and fob them off for decades and and a word if you would on Paula vel's how culpable is she how I mean her role seems to be pretty Grim it does um she presided over some very very Grim bit Behavior you know a lot of lies misrepresentations even to um judicial process even to the the litigation that Alan Bates LED in that the post office told a lot of untruths she covered up she she you know summarized in that that part of the dramatization where she she said uh which was verbatim where she she told people I need to be told it's okay I need the evidence to say it's okay so basically she wanted to be told everything was fine by people beneath her so it's a bit like you know in a lot of organized crime families the top person doesn't exactly know the detail but they pretty much give the message about uh about what needs to be done and I think you know there going to be some very awkward questions when she appears before the public inquiry should be later this year and and it's not going anywhere now this is it and and finally Richard Brooks what what should what should we be looking out for next what what what what are you beavering away on that could perhaps perhaps not of similar scale in terms of Scandal but but but similar kind of um importance perhaps um well we've got all kinds of stories Brewing um uh I was just looking at one today involving uh victims of um tax fraudsters who hmrc is treating very harshly people Nick their details claim tax rebates for them uh and then hmrc goes after for the victim there's a big Scandal there waiting to to come out I think and the other thing we've talked about before is the is is the trouble on te side where there's a very very dodgy um uh development going on with lots of people making lots of money and on which I think there might be some quite big news this week so there you go watch this space as they say yeah listen to it if that isn't reason enough to uh to to treat yourself to private IM magazine every fortnite then hopefully my ringing endorsement will will tip you over over the Ed Richard Brooks investigative journalist at that magazine um who has been covering with colleagues this story since 2011 and very correctly but also I think for for for our industry generously acknowledging the role that other people have played in that computer weekly I've said to you quite a few times that the trade press has now stepped into the breach that was once occupied by the national newspapers National newspapers obsessed with opinion and othering and stoking up culture wars whereas the trade press really does dig into the weeds of stuff in in the way that private eye does although as Richard reminded us Tom with out the mail deserves credit and Nick Wallace perhaps as much if not more than anybody else pursuing this really with the with the sort of tenacity that that I think at one point it's all he did he just he covered the court case almost um as a freelancer just I think he did actually just just sit in court for months on end covering it in ways that the rest of the media was not doing what an astonishing personal Vindication for him we should probably talk to him this week but I imagine an awful lot of people are beating a path to his door at the minute um I I didn't forget to tell you who has been selected to fight the seat to replace the disgraced MP Peter bone as the Tory candidate in the upcoming Welling BR by elction I didn't forget to tell you I just took an executive editorial decision to build up even more tension Mr bone you will remember left his wife for a physio therapist 20 years his Junior who uh uh was at the time married with two children he was kicked out of the commons by a recall petition prompted by his suspension from Parliament over bullying and sexual misconduct allegations the uh uh party Association in that northamptonshire seat have now selected the candidate uh who will replace him in the upcoming Welling by elction and uh oh you're not going to believe who it is James O'Brien on lb LC James O'Brien on LBC 1048 is the time it's it's a bit of a human nature phone and as well as a as a current affairs one this what is it about the drama on ITV that has um reached parts that an awful lot of very good journalism failed to reach and um part of it is is the Personal Touch it's a sort of human nature issue it's that we can see them now Richard Brooks a private eye describing the dehumanizing of some of the victims of the post office Scandal and of course what what a drama does is is is rehumanize them particularly when the portrayals by actors like Julie hmond hch and Toby Jones are so extraordinarily good you you just can imagine yourself I can't find the tweet that that focused on this so forgive me for not giving you the credit you deserve but when you said you can imagine yourself in that situation it changes the um changes the whole relation ship Ricky says people always cared but the beauty of art particularly a really poignant film or TV drama boosts the Justice movement to take on scandals and coverups we saw it with Bloody Sunday we saw it with hillsbor Jimmy mcg's hillsbor film absolutely instrumental in undoing some of the uh lethal Damage Done by uh the disgraced former editor of the sun Kelvin McKenzie and other elements of the British media and Ricky adds optimistically we'll see it soon with grenfell I certainly hope so but the idea that you can here it is I think the TV drama from the brexit fails Twitter account God knows what you're doing listening to this program I think the TV drama has had such an impact because viewers imagined themselves in the impossible positions that the postmasters were in that's really well put uh Milan is in Ashford it wouldn't be a post office phone in on LBC without a contribution from Milan formerly of chisik whose mom Mrs Joshy runs the Strand on the green post office which for many years was my local branch Milan I hope you're well I hope your mom's well what would you like to say um I hope you're well James um yeah my mom uh has been running that post office for for decades thankfully by fluke she wasn't caught up in the Horizon Scandal however I've taken a very nerdy personal interest in this for years and there are many many things that I could discuss but I mean one of the things would be the Scandal continued as of even last year um with I've written to Kevin holler Kevin James MP and who don't seem at all interested and in the Scandal the post office have done even last year alone it's quite hard to get hold of Kevin Hollen rake he he got engaged in a bit of a Twitter exchange with Daniel Lambert our kind of go-to wine importer for for brexit related issues of wine I just digress briefly Milan and and Daniel challenged him to to come on to LBC and have a debate about it all and then when we got in touch with him he kept referring us to Downing Street um so I good luck in getting a getting a full and Frank response from him we're currently struggling but you you so you're moving on to a new area of concern I think well I mean because people think oh right this is the post office in the past and it's it's and you think well have they cleaned up their act no they haven't cleaned up their act even last year they misled parliament in their annual accounts by falsely asserting that the chair of the inquiry um said that they complied with the metrics um that they for the disclosure of documents he hadn't it's a completely false statement well again I have to I have to take your word for this I've got no way of of of of checking or or confirming in real time but equally I've got no reason to doubt you or to um or to or to certainly not to question your integrity in in as a geeky Observer of this and and with that sort of mopping your brow in relief that that that your lovely mom wasn't caught up in in any of this CU she could very easily have been why do you think it takes a um a drama what do you think it is about a TV drama that reaches Parts other other media can't reach I think in in the age of Netflix and Prime and and other providers are are available I think it's I think it's easier for people to engage in in that so for example that's what the conversation is oh what are you watching now and so on what are you watching now and so on and that's it where I mean are you going to say hey what are you watching on panana at the moment that's not going to be interesting to quite a few people a lot of people may think it's very interesting but the mass mass public will more likely to engage with what are you watching now as in the drama when you watch that then the conversation starts then the anger starts and then there's Snowball Effect from that yeah I think you're right and that doesn't make us bad people does it that's a perfectly natural human sort of response you know Dickens probably did more to describe 19th century poverty than the actual campaigners did in terms of making the public aware of it but it does seem a little I don't know a little sad a little unsatisfactory um I'm glad your mom wasn't caught up in it and I shall keep an eye on the thing that you've just brought to our attention uh Milan thank you stay safe Mark's on the WHL Mark what would you like to say oh hi Hi D James I came in in 2019 uh I lived in Vietnam before uh coming here okay um have a we at the time we had a 9-year-old daughter who needed a good education as such and simply couldn't afford the extortionate rates for international schools over there okay um despite my accent I am actually originally British who've traveled a fair bit myself okay um and um I bought a post office and uh as a result of the usual stories of the discrepancies that just kept ballooning and ballooning straight away so so so like quite soon after buying it you're doing the books and they just don't balance I I was in in July 2017 by October 2017 I had discrepancies and they just kept exacerbating as we went along and uh as a result uh the other fact that with my wife being Vietnamese she had to go back to Vietnam because that's the application closest to yeah um to get a visa for working and um was there the deductions that they enforced on my uh remuneration because of the uh uh the discrepancies meant that I couldn't prove to the government that I was earning enough to act as a sponsor for my wife gosh so she was stuck in Vietnam for 13 months solid because we couldn't even pull the passport out uh no I understand yeah um and so Terri I'm so take the risk of a visitor Visa so um all of that led to the obviously the the the mental stresses all the rest of it yes um I was then probably the very first person to be terminated um and I was already pretty destitute at the time because of all of the deductions and uh 2019 the final appeal was rejected and I was absolutely elated to see that the post office appeals were rejected and then within 30 minutes probably before us incor dried on his decision I got an email to say you've been terminated I'd had a discussion with uh post office Representatives only a matter of maybe a week before right and um that they had gone through they actually looked at it and said uh because they kept also by the way just deducting and deducting and deducting in terms of remuneration income as we went along so it be became less and less as an income as well so I I'm short of time how how how I mean this is too late to help you then these Revelations and these these these but presumably there's some uh some satisfaction in seeing the light being Shone so brightly into these dark Corners oh absolutely now what I will um reiterate is that sorry will will say is that uh what they did is that they actually more or less gave me the money I put in back good when you you take all the calculations however it meant that I was working for 3 years without getting getting any income whatso and and crucially falling below that threshold for for your wife's visa to come here Mark that's a terrible story that that that deserves a wider audience it really does and and and a really timely reminder of of what goes on beneath the surface even of what is now coming out the the attendance Stories the ripples if you like caused by the rocks being thrown into the pool in this case by the post office take care I I want to squeeze in one more call if I can Tony's in ham Tony what would you like to say um hello James well you you've asked a good question about why um it's taken a TV drama to widen the interest in the post office story and actually the reasons are that uh with um liable laws in this country the way they are it took a a litigation in 2019 yes a 900 page um uh judgment by S Peter Fraser uh Mr Justice Fraser and he exposed the whole thing as a result of Alan Bates um and people were worried up until that point that uh they might get sued by Fujitsu and after that the um it was um easy with plain sailing for the newspapers the newspapers picked up on it ITV drama picked up on it took them I think about three years yes and I think one one of the main reasons why it's been so successful is because um I don't think itv's given been given enough credit yet really for the the the people working on it the Fantastic writer and the uh and the actors involved they met the uh the sub post Masters they got to know the story and they understood it well enough to portray it in a way which has captured the nation's interest yes you're right LED in the National psyche it has hasn't it I I heard an interview I think with the with the woman who ran the documentary production company and and just knew that this was a story that demanded a wider retelling so sort of went to ITV and and and and got into a sort of partnership with drama production company so she I forgive me I forget her name but she was she was deeply impressive and very much a woman on a mission what's your interest you sound as if you you have more than an amateurish interest in the story I've Tak a personal interest in the uh in the story for for more than 10 years and I followed it and actually it's disappointing for me to hear Uh Kevin Hollen Hollen the uh the business Minister yes talking in in in very similar terms to his predecessors even during the height of the Scandal he's not he he's really I suppose it's the civil servants who are calling the shots and he he's having his briefings written by them and they of course a little bit embarrassed by well I don't think he'll be in a position to defend himself from that accusation anytime soon cuz we we've had an email from his office over the weekend this is in response to that uh his agreement actually to debate the pint of wine story which he tried to present on Twitter as a great Victory and a brexit benefit with uh I think the biggest wine importer in Wales D Daniel Lambert and Hollen rake said he would be up for that conversation but we heard from him over the weekend and his um his office told us sorry but The Minister's diary has been jam-packed since the start of the Year we're obviously very busy with the post office Scandal for which minister hollinrake is the lead Minister for so I don't think we'll be able to pin anything down for the foreseeable future I make of that what you will Tony um and Peter Bones constituency the replacement to fight that seat after he was drummed out of parliament in disgrace yeah it's his girlfriend James O'Brien on LBC James O'Brien on LBC 4 minutes after 11 quick GL back to the last hour I'm sure we'll be returning to that topic I got a really cool text of Martin Shaw the the actor who reminds us that he was in a drama in 1990 called who bombed Birmingham and of course the Birmingham 6 wrongfully imprisoned for uh uh the Birmingham Pub bombings the IRA Birmingham Pub bombings that they they were released in 1991 um and there was I mean most definitely a link between the two and then there's Jimmy McGovern's hillsbor drama so it's not the first time possibly being a bit hard on ourselves at 10:00 in the morning drama does play an important role in bringing things to public attention it always has and please God it always will um and this is perhaps arguably the latest example of really strong storytelling in a dramatic context reaching parts that really strong storytelling in a journalistic context simply can't so thank thank you for that reminder Martin 5 minutes after 11: is the time you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC I've got a bit of a Mad idea for the final hour of the program today based entirely on something that happened to me this morning uh I'm not going to tell you what it is just yet but I have been asked in the past to appear on Celebrity hunted and my experience this morning confirms my suspicion deep down because at surface level I think I'd be really good at it I'm quite good at hiding I think I'd be really good at it and then but deep down I think I'd be absolutely rubbish and my experiences this morning in the omons of eling Broadway Station confirm my fears that I'd actually be rubbish but it has made me think about some stuff in in ways that I haven't thought about before and uh and at the moment as things stand breaking news not withstanding I am minded to to get stuck into that shortly after 12:00 this afternoon before that quite a lot of newspapers carrying a story about parents being told to stop keeping children off school whether it's with um sore throats and runny noses that in a preco universe would not have been considered grounds for keeping children at home or or whether it is in the sort of broader context of absenteeism and um and some newspapers choose to report this as parents perhaps not being quite robust enough in encouraging their children to go to school um I think that's a bit irresponsible there there's not much in the research that backs up that angle but the idea of children with sniffles and and sore throats being held back because we've still got a sort of a CO Legacy in in place is um is is relevant so to I suspect is anxiety and and and mental health issues which for children and adults alike have ballooned rather in recent years already Rising steadily and then a bit of a a spike during and after covid so I'm I'm interested in this story for a variety of reasons but um but I'm also interested in it for a completely left field reason and and this perhaps looks at children who just aren't going to school anymore the the the first producer I ever had on this program very mild man maned lad lovely man absolutely obsessed with truant I don't know why and remember I was quite Young when I started this job I didn't have a very broad um palet of experience and all of my secondary education took place in boarding schools so I boarded from the age of 10 I was a weekly border from 10 to 12 and then a full border as we called them which meant you went home once a month if you were lucky from the age of 12 to the age of 18 and so I never really had truancy in my my locker it was not it was not an issue I had any real personal relationship with I did bunk off class a little bit but at boarding school you can't not go to school you might want to write this down it's one of those insights of absolutely sparkling value if you're at boarding school you can't not go to school cuz you sleep there it's not an option to not go to school even if you're going to Bunk off class and get caught you're still at school there's no way you cannot go to school if you're at boarding school I mean you could abscond from the actual school but that's almost the opposite of not going to school that's running away from school which would be a different proposition entirely so I never really had this uh personal understanding of the issue but the first ever producer I had was absolutely obsessed with it and the reason for his obsession looking back it must have been personal must have been people he was at school with he he was Furious about and he very rarely got angry except with me he very very rarely got angry but he was furious at government suggestions and this would have been under labor government suggestions that parents should be punished when their children don't go to school because he would say what you know what are you supposed to do you got a 16-year-old son who's refusing to get out of bed he's a foot taller than you you might be a single what are you supposed to do what on Earth is the point of punishing a parent who has failed to get a child to there's no there's no point even if there are some parents who are just sort of ort of I don't know looking the other way or or or washing their hands of it it's an it's an insane policy and yet here we are again 20 years later the story is is is is doing the rounds again with Jillian Keegan talking about how tackling attendance is her number one priority and and up to a point she's right attending school is vital to a child's well-being development and attainment it I mean it has all sorts of uh ramifications for the rest of their lives but here's the thing this line here really struck me we want all our children to have the best start in life because we know that attending school is vital to a child's well-being development and attainment as well as impact future Career Success now I I've got a bit of a theory bubbling away at the moment and it covers quite a lot of society it it it's a it's a theory that I actually started developing when I was writing my latest book I don't think I can call it my new book anymore it's been out for quite a while um lovely to see it at number two in the times on Saturday so thank you to everybody who who who gave or received it as a as a Christmas present and a lovely review in the herald up in Scotland over the weekend um but but when I was writing how they broke Britain I I found myself really thinking and I didn't write much about this if at all but I found myself thinking about the social contract a lot about about the relationship between behavior and expectation within a society you know when we talk about if you play by the rules you expect certain returns I think many adults are struggling really to see the social contract in in clear terms at the moment you you sort of particularly when we talk about property ownership the idea that if you abided by certain preconditions if you did this and you did that you worked hard you got a job possibly you got possibly you got a degree then by the time you were in your late 20s you would expect to be joining the property owning classes right that's like a silent social contract you might call it you do this you do that this happens now in the last sort of 14 or 15 years I genuinely worry that that social contract has been broken and it's been broken from two ends it's been broken by people in power I was thinking about Boris Johnson this morning on the way into work and the fact that he is being paid hundreds of thousands of pounds by The Daily Mail to write columns about this weekend it was about why he can't burn his Christmas tree why he can't set fire to his Christmas tree and it turned out to be because of laws that were introduced when he was prime minister that that to me it's very hard to really pinpoint the essence of Boris Johnson but that comes pretty close doesn't it writing absolute bills for a ton of money from a newspaper where the editor-in-chief wanted to get a seat in the House of Lords that he constantly complains about being unelected but is desperate to be in and Boris Johnson was the only politician corrupt enough to consider helping him into the House of Lords so he rewards him with a column but he left parliament in absolute disgrace people forget this about Boris Johnson he wasn't just chased out by his own misdeeds he he he resigned rather than face Justice he resigned rather than be subject to the recall petition has sent Peter bone scurrying for the hills in to be replaced by his own girlfriend as the Conservative candidate in Welling BR Johnson left in absolute disgrace and he was too cowardly even to face the music so it was as if he resigned it was as if he walked off the pitch before the referee could pull out the red card that's how pathetic and cowardly Boris Johnson is in fact that's a superb analogy because it never happens there is hardly any footballer I don't text me with an example of it but every footballer what think there's a chance he might stay on the pitch he's going to wait to see whether the referee so the bloke that you've just fouled is lying on the floor with a broken leg but you're thinking somewhere deeper well I might just get a yellow I might be able to stay on the park maybe he was facing in the opposite direction this analogy obviously doesn't accommodate V technology but Boris Johnson marched off the pitch as soon as the referee blew his whistle because he was too cowardly to face the music and see the color of the red card that was likely to come out of the referee's pocket so the man left parliament in absolute disgrace and yet he gets rewarded constantly reading about how much money he will be paid for speaking and how much money The Daily Mail pay him for columns about why he can't set fire to his own Christmas tree as a consequence of laws that he introduced as prime minister absolute disgrace the disgraced former prime minister Boris Johnson so that silent social contract where we grow up ordinary people like you and me we grow up thinking if you abide by the rules you get a certain return and then you come at it from the other end you come at it from young people growing up now looking at what lies ahead of them and this is this is not a happy conversation all right we are going to ask the question of why does your child not go to school because as is often the case with tabloid journalism the answers are Myriad complicated sophisticated nuanced and difficult um t journalism demands that you pretend the world is none of those things everything is black and white everything is binary everything is either something to be celebrated or uh ammunition with which to attack people you've never met so the children growing up look at the social contract what I call the silent social contract and I wonder how many of them just think to themselves well what's the point what's the point I don't like school I find School boring in previous generations you really understood the relationship between school and future you'd think look I find it really boring but I've got to get my gcss I've got to get my a levels otherwise I won't get a decent job and if I don't get a decent job I won't have a decent lifestyle if I don't have a decent lifestyle I'll never be a property owner or I'll never be able to rent a nice place I genuinely fear and don't think you can convince me that I'm wrong on this actually because it's just an opinion it's not counting I genuinely fear that that a lot of young people are looking at the social contract the silent social contract and they're seeing they're seeing the most powerful influential people in our society cheating and lying and prospering you know the people that sold them brexit stole their Birthright promoted prospering the Liars the cheats that have populated government now for years the politicians who sat on their hands for the Post Office Scandal that silent social contract oh what's that you've been chased out of parliament in disgrace and they've they've chosen your girlfriend to fight well there's no it's as if that silent social contract has broken and I don't know whether that plays a part in this so have you ever had to explain to your children why it's important to study Pythagoras why do I need to do Pythagoras's Theorem dad why do I have to do algebra Mom I'm never I'm never ever going to need Pythagoras's Theorem when I grow up I'm never going to need algebra when and you try to explain to them or I do I try to explain to them that it's a bit like doing physical exercise you've got muscles in your brain that you need to flex and studying these things these issues they Flex muscles that don't get flexed in any other circumstances and the better muscles the more musclly you are the better conditioned your brain is the the the the better equipped you are for the life ahead so you might not actually need to deploy Pythagoras's Theorem at any point but the mental training that learning and understanding that has given to you will prove useful in all manner of other areas at unspecified points in the future God I hated chemistry man I hated C once you stopped doing experiment I used to like doing experiments but it involved a bunson burner I was in like Flynn but once you moved away from the uh from the exper oh I hated it I hated physics even more and I I could just about make that argument 10 years ago you've got to do this you've got to do that it's really important but I and I don't know whether this will work as a phone in I don't know whether I'm sounding mad to you but if you've got a young person in your family who just doesn't see the point of school anymore I wonder whether it's because we can no longer tell them that if you work hard and keep your nose clean you'll be all right we live in a society now where people who are lazy and feckless and dishonest and fraudulent and disingenuous and unkind become Prime Minister how do you explain to a young person why going to school and obeying the rules is important when we have somehow created a society where telling lies and being lazy can give you the keys to Downing Street or simply being useless at everything like Liz truss or Ry sunak you don't you don't actually have to be morally corrupt like Boris Johnson so there's two things going on here forgive me it's even longer than usual this introduction there's two things going on here there's the top of the mountain being populated by profoundly dishonest and feckless people unserious people and then there's the bottom of the mountain where working hard and playing by the rules means you might just about survive it doesn't mean you're going to be on the proper ladder by the time you're 30 so why is your child not going to school 0345 60609 73 I'll take any answer you've got on that why is your child not going to school and I'm particularly interested in hearing from you whether you're a parent or not if you recognize my description there of the silent social contract being broken cuz that's the kind of stuff that is generational in its impact why should I so here is a child here is is a mythical 15-year-old 14y old 16y old okay why what's the point mom why should I work hard at school why should I go to school what do you say in fact you can all play that game what did you say to that 16-year-old why should I go to school 0345 6060 973 is the number you need James O'Brien on LBC James O'Brien on LBC 24 minutes after 11 is the time um the story is responsibly reported as covid era attitudes to School attendance risk damaging children irresponsibly reported um without any evidence really that parents are just letting their children take time off school whenever they please but the numbers are striking and the reasons behind uh serial absenteeism or even School refusal I think are are complex and I'm just wondering this morning how much of it might have something to do with with the difficulty that a teenager has today in understanding the importance of going to school and working hard because the the simple relationship between application and ambition doesn't seem to me to be imp place in the way that it was when I was young or even 10 20 years ago I don't know it's just a thought and sometimes we have our best conversations don't we when it's all a little bit uh a little bit out there Terry's in rice slip Terry what' you reckon hello James it's good to have the opportunity to talk with you again about one of my favorite subjects education yes carry on I think that you're absolutely right to say that to say that the social don't worry in a minute I'm going to say something I disagree with you but but um I think you're absolutely right to say that the social contract behind education has been broken you see I'm 73 now when I was younger it was quite straightforward work hard pass your exams get a qualification get a job and it will probably be as permanent as you want it to be get a mortgage and you live your life now those things simply don't apply you know pass your exams go to university build up a debt and there is no guarantee of a well-paid permanent job no this is true and and I have to say that there is a part of me which actually welcomes this crisis in School attendance now I accept all the social consequences of having young people you know not going to school I mean I think that's really problematic but I think what lies behind it is that young people and their parents are beginning to realize that what they're being taught at school is simply not relevant to lead a fulfilling life in the 21st century and the bit I disagree with you about is a bit about Pythagoras being a form of mental excise I didn't see that coming go on tell me more but this is what I deploy this is how I try and justify the teaching of Pythagoras to my children it it isn't necessarily what I believe well well well well well my bet Noir is getting the 16y olds to memorize the formula for solving a quadratic equation yes there is absolutely no reason to do that they'll never solve a quadratic sorry 90% of them will never solve a quadratic equation once they leave their last or suffer from their inability to do so yes but there will be some and I think actually I might put myself in that category for whom abstract mathematics if you want to use that term is a really important part of the way they think yes so what we need I think we need two things I think we need much more flexibility in the education of teenagers and I think lying behind the curriculum that I have in mind are five things all of which begin with C which we need to promote the first is critical thinking never more important than in this world of um of lies and un Wars creativity which unfortunately has been downgraded in our schools since I was teaching there yes the third one is collaboration which of course the exam focused culture really militates against the fifth one is communication hang on you missed out the fourth one sorry sorry I beg you pardon that's right I can't count mat mat is Al important but it doesn't begin with C yes so the the fourth one is communication Richi sunak has acknowledged that is collor two words and I don't know which of these two words is the more important ones the fifth one is compassion stroke concern and I think Boris Johnson is the classic example of somebody who has in one sense the best education that money could buy at Eon and then at at Oxbridge yes and yet he clearly lacked concern and compassion for others I wonder if it can be taught to a character like that but it I mean it can certainly be taught to others um yeah well um I love that that's a beautiful quintet of of of of qualities well well thank you but and I think then we need to redesign a curriculum and people have done some some work on this there's a thing called the Mastery oh I forgotten the name it's called something like the Mastery framework it comes from the United States where they look at what a child what a young person is learning map it against this sort of that's fascinating really is we're going to run out of time but in a sense I think you've highlighted another element of uh we don't need to disagree about Pythagoras but the I I've been recent policy has all been framed towards academic value only exists if it has a commercial value qualifications are only of use if they enhance your employability in some ways you've gone in the opposite direction but you're create a healthier population who will then be by almost definition they'll be more productive as well so that's like a a bonus they'll be happier they'll be more fulfilled or'll go they'll be more productive so whichever way you look at it we're going in the wrong direction so you add a new dimension I've got the notion of a social contract being breached because young people can't see the relationship between effort and and reward you're you're redefining reward in away I think Terry and that and that justifies the effort um well I think so and I think that we must we mustn't only think of school in terms of um you know preparing of um financial terms no but I think increasingly they do and that might be another reason why children aren't turning up because you're saying you've got to go to school otherwise you won't get a decent job and they're looking at the jobs that are available and they're thinking well I'm not going to go to school yeah and you ask people of my age or even a bit younger what was the thing at school that really made a difference to you as a person and very often it'll be something like music which is what I taught or it might be the Sailing Club yes uh it's those things which have been pushed it could be anything couldn't it something that was not ter you're a star I always love talking to you I shall remember those five C's but before you go is it minus B plus or minus the square otk of 4 a c over 2 a yeah correct x = - B plus orus the < TK of b^2 - 4 a c all over 2 a and you see why is there a bit of my brain uselessly remembering that from 1966 all I can say with confidence Terry is that only one of us under unod it it wasn't me Thomas wats is here now with your headlines James O'Brien on LBC James O'Brien on LBC it is 26 minutes to 12 and you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC well I I'm wondering why your child is missing so much school okay and any answers at all to that because it is going to be a lot more nuanced than the headlines allow well some of the headlines allow some some um people handling it responsibly times do a decent job actually and the the telegraph uh the guardian has has it under this labor and tories set out rival plans to cut School absences anxiety all manner of issues postco paranoia almost but also my my pet theory is that it is increasingly difficult and Terry helped me make this point a star he is um it's increasingly difficult to explain to Children why it's important here's a great point from Helen who's in bule hopefully not underwater Helen uh £15 per hour for a junior doctor they might be witnessing the dumbing down of Sal salaries warranted by graduates they might quite rightly be considering the fact that they'll be better paid in adulthood by undertaking a trade and so the acquisition of high academic grades is not as important to them as it would have been to older Generations that's another element to it as well why why do I need to study Physics why do I need to work hard at school I'm never going to be able to buy a home it's quite Bleak isn't it and also I would throw into the mix the fact that we seem at the moment at this stage in the cycle of British history to reward liars and cheats with the biggest prizes the greatest bobles look at who have been put into the House of Lords recently the the man that presided over vote leave when it was breaking electoral law the man who has been uh sharing the most misogynistic and and vile opinions regarding Carol veman who else has been put into that I mean some of the most ridiculous human beings ever to draw breath in this country been put in the House of Lords in the last 13 years so why what where's that relationship between hard work and reward I don't see it so why do the hard work Toby's in wsouth Toby what would you like to say hi James I never call phone inss but weirdly I was listening to you in the car on my way I get I get everyone in the end in the everyone in the end Toby don't feel bad funny enough the last time I called you was about 10 years ago and it was about coincidences and today I was listening to you in the car driving to try and convince my son he's at his mom that he needs to go into school to do his mock exam today and I just thought I have to call because yeah he's going through all that is he he's going through he can't see the point in it he he's on the internet reads these Reddit forums about antiw work and all the work I don't know no don't gloss over that I don't know about that what does that mean well anti-work is a big Reddit Forum where people post horror stories about their work where they say why don't we all get our free basic income okay which is another story entirely yes and the more I tell him that most of these people are firstly based in America where work laws are much less strict and second more people are happy in their jobs also don't post on the internet but it doesn't matter these stories are there and and there are some powerful cases to be made for a universal basic income as well actually and probably in his lifetime if not in ours I think probably will come to pass but none of that helps you in the moment does it it does not And he as as you say how how how can you force a child you can't for a child it's it's impossible unless you use physical strength but you can't when they're 17 no and even when they're younger you can't really because it doesn't work nor would you particularly want to be sort of dragging them around by their by their ear ear loes you want them to choose themselves you want to find a way convince them but they don't seem to be listening so he doesn't see the point in studying is it that simple is it that straightforward yeah yeah he also seems to believe that um he's convinced himself that revision and homework are conspiracies okay I like the sound of the kit I mean he's clearly not short of imagination no no no he's he's a bright kid um he says if if teachers aren't able to teach me in school then they're not doing their job properly he should he shouldn't need to study anything at home he should come out of class by a sort of form of intellectual osmosis his brain should be full of all the know that he needs exactly he point does he consolidation well yes but you've got to consolidate telling him this and he goes yes there's half a point there's half point to everything and he manages to convince himself of all of this me are you worried yeah really worried really worried because it's his marks now it's his a levels in a few months he may well just do this so he's convinced himself he's ill this morning he may well be slightly ill and it may well have been brought on by mental health issues which I think absolutely were caus by pmic and by all sorts of other things that are going on and the the kids got out of practice at going to school regularly and it's a great shame but also yes there is all that stuff that isn't on the curriculum anymore the fun stuff seems to have been forgotten about as your last caller was saying which is such a huge shame I will do you think it will pass do you think it this cohort that was caught up in covid in such an unpleasant and unfair way is is is is unrepresentative I I don't know if you've got younger children whether or not it is the the sort of 13 to 18 year olds that are in this catchment as opposed to the seven to 13 year olds I don't know but I do agree with I don't know if you know about Sir Ken Robinson who believed that education needs an entire paradigm shift because in many ways it knocks creativity out of kids who are sounds like the call that we had on while you were on hold actually who made made those points very powerfully something something come on we need to encourage creativity and we need to you know learning by rope it should be a thing of the past these days you should go into an exam and everything should be there to help you and then you use what you've leared or what the the processes that you've learned to help you answer questions rather than just having to remember facts no one can see the point of that anymore because the internet is there yeah and and you're right the system perhaps hasn't caught up with that was why we often talk about calculators and it being a controversial conversation even when I started in this job as to whether children should take calculators into exams Thank You Toby and and that last point you make there actually is why your boy has half a point I I hope everything comes out in the wash I really do it's it's it's a terribly tricky time um when I I was a particularly difficult teenager but I was dealing with monks and teachers I wasn't at home with with with Mom and Dad but if you just don't see the point of doing something very hard very hard sometimes to to persuade young people that they just should it's it's it's the point I think in the relationship where the answer to the question why because I say so no longer replies I don't know when that happens some people it may it may happen at 10 some people at 14 16 why do I have to do that because I say so just that run eventually that runs out of Road Julia's on the island man Julia what would you like to say hi yeah I've got a 14-year-old son and I I mean we he doesn't he doesn't miss a lot of school but I I have that question all the time and I think well why should I you know what's the point yeah coming back from school and as soon as he goes to school he comes home and he's Moody and he's angry because he probably feels he's not doing really well either because you're trying to still we're still trying to squeeze kids into boxes and you know he's coming home going well why should I study geography you know why do I need to do that I'm just about to go and fetch him from his religious studies mock exam like why do I need to do that so I think the system needs to change and it needs to be become more relevant um and but with him also when we were kids if you had a bad influence friend your parents knew who they were but now we and I know certainly me I'm competing with the likes of I'm sorry to say this name but Andrew Tate oh dear I'm sorry that is a huge influence because he is you know people like him are saying you need to study my University because that's relevant to to you you you you too can grow up to be an alleged sex trafficker if only if only you follow these pointers and yeah and PS that's a conspiracy but I mean like you know I think hopefully my son's getting out the other side but but it is his voice and I and I do I get his emails I start every day with Andrew taton M because I want to know sure what my kid is consuming and it is around that it's about hardwork Etc but traditional schooling is rubbish so when you're competing with those and it's not just him you know there's no I know and we shouldn't actually dismiss him just cuz he's so unpleasant if he's influential he's significant isn't he or he's he's relevant but but you you you then struggle and this is where the conversation has gone we struggle Our Generation to point at the the the the the proof that doing things the traditionally correct way is worth doing because you can't say property ownership you can't say good job you can't point at the things that my dad could point at when he was trying to persuade me to work a bit harder at school no and and my son is constantly he's frustrated because actually he's constantly working on his million billion pound idea right to become to create and which is great we do encourage that but he gets frustrated and he resents it because he thinks he should be earning a million he's going to be a millionaire or billionaire by the time he's 16 I said give it till 18 it's the optim give yourself a break give yourself a break expect but you know School competes with that so like he doesn't have time he doesn't have time to think about so what we do say is I do acknowledge I do say to him the system isn't up to the system doesn't work anymore but it's the only system we have so study so that you have choices so that if you're not a billionaire by the time you're 18 and all of a sudden you decide you have you want to be an architect yeah you have the choice choices is a great word choices are strong only choice choices that's I use that a lot actually because that really is what privilege gives you as well that's what private education gives you it gives you more choices a degree gives you more choices so that when you know you reach these these Forks in the road there are more paths to choose from when when you get to them the more that you've got in your locker the more the more that you've acred in in terms of achievement or qualification or experience or that's a really good point actually you're clearly doing something right but as with Toby I wish you well I really do he's a t tough tough conversations what's the point I mean kids have been saying that forever I just think it was easier to answer in the past than than it is now 11:45 is the time James O'Brien on LBC James O'Brien on LBC it's 11:49 you're listening to James O'Brien on LBC where the question I mean it's this isn't it the the education secretary Shadow education secretary Bridget Phillipson said at the weekend that School absentee ISM which is rocketing it's one in five children regularly out of school likely to rise to one in four in the near future um and she says it's damaging the life chances of children which it probably is I mean I I'd struggle to make the case for saying that it isn't but it's a lot harder to prove than it was when I was young or perhaps when you were young that the the relationship between effort qualification result and then reward or achieve aient or attainment was just a lot easier to plot I think a lot clearer um if you want to be a rocket scientist says this text you will need Pythagoras and a great deal more says Tom to which the response of the teenagers we've been talking about today um uh would be I don't want to be a rocket scientist that's why I like Julia's points about choice so Julia and Toby both dealing with sons who would probably respond to that by saying I don't want to be a rocket scientist so why so jog on but choice is you might not want to be a rocket scientist but you might discover something further down the line that will be easier to access if you've worked harder at school if you've done that subject you didn't see the point of it might sound unlikely but if you just couch it in terms of choices and then you come back to the silent social contract that I opened the hour with the idea that that that just doesn't seem to apply anymore and then the the perhaps the most important factor of it all is that we have created a society particularly post brexit where the greatest rewards and prizes are reserved for the biggest cheats and Liars anyone who pays any attention at all to to newspaper Le media is going to be of the view well either you're brainwashed and you don't realize that they're cheats and Liars you're too busy doing your cap and uh bending your knee tugging your for loock or you're looking at the the landscape of of rewards and honors and wealth people like Jacob Reese Smog and Boris Johnson and you just see seeing the biggest cheats and Liars or charlatans and ignoramuses being given the biggest rewards so what's the point of working hard at chemistry when you can just sort of lie your way to Downing Street and then when you get caught you get given millions of pounds by the owner of the Daily Mail who went to the same school and I didn't go to that school so what's the point in trying it's a tough conversation Bri's in Bournemouth Bri what would you like to say hi James um I'm such it's such a pleasure to speak to you I'm a huge subscriber of your work I love the show the podcast and I'm loving reading the book fantastic so hatrick all you need now is a board game carry on so I just wanted to give you my opinion which is from an African perspective I am from the developing world or or the third world or as uh djt lovingly calls pole country where all that is drummed into us from the second we into the schooling system if we're privileged enough to go to school is that you need to go to school to get an education as um that is the key to success and success being that the road from your Cradle to the Grave will be a lot more comfortable and easier and um please don't shake me for this but in my opinion in the 28 years that I uh lived here I founded from the time I came here in kind of 1998 um it was a trend where you know uh it was the era where if you you fell pregnant you got a councel you got a council house and you just um money off the doctor yeah but that that was a world portrayed in right-wing newspapers that wasn't wasn't supported by any statistical evidence whatsoever oh right okay so I'm wrong there very imigrant um as an immigrant when I came here I just thought oh my gosh life is too easy here because all we've ever been taught in Africa is you've got to go to school you've got to go to school and school was you know it's not for everybody and I was a I was an average student but I left school with qualifications and I came here and I got my degree and I'm I I'm drumming the same strict African culture into my half English half African children where they have no choice uh because but here's the thing so if I was your parent and you were to turn to me and say what's the point I could say to you well if you work hard you'll be able to go to England to do your degree you'll be able to live life that is probably not available to you in your home country the the the the rewards you will receive in return for your effort and your exertions are pretty easy to describe and pretty easy to imagine but it's not true for a teenager in England today what what are the rewards you would describe to a I don't know how old let's say a 13-year-old who doesn't see the point in working hard at school what do you say to them that is somehow comparable to the life-changing experiences you could receive in return for your exertions I think what I tell my 13-year-old daughter is that listen I I I know it's a complex issue like you've described James but I think school gives us a certain resilience and a discipline and a commitment because it it is difficult for a lot of teenagers now postco and this that and the other and I work within the NHS so you know I I understand a lot of the issues however I do see that and and again this is a very Lim perspective stop stop stop making excuses for your answer and tell me what it is no well I think you know what James there's a bit of snowflakey culture sometimes snowflakey culture where you know snowflakey culture yeah you know where some people they don't want to go to school and there's no accountability and there's nobody no you're talking about other people's children now you're not talking about your own here is a 13-year-old who says what's the point of working hard to which you respond by saying saying you've got to go to school because you've got no choice this is but that's but that's saying that's the because I say so School of Thor and we're talk we're talking about parents who've grown out of that sort of slightly uh juvenile response it's you've got to provide an intellectual and thoughtful answer to the question Bri well my answer evidencebased ideally okay well you see I'm African and we don't do well that's I mean I I I mean if someone else said that would actually be racist so we'll we'll gloss over we'll gloss over that quite quickly in answer to the question why should I work hard at school or even why should I go to school what's your intelligent thoughtful evidence-based answer to that question for a kid who can't see the point because to me you can gain some skills which will help you later on in life to be able to be employable or to start your own business or to what skills well whatever skills you may want to uh you know to I want to start I know what I want to do I don't I don't need chemistry to to to to open a I don't know a storage Warehouse or to become an accountant or whatever it may be but that that chemistry like you described earlier James no you can't use my arguments CU cuz you think I'm snowflakey you have to use your arguments no no no you said earlier in the show that um although you didn't like P Pythagoras is theorum or chemistry or what have you you say to your children that listen you still need to flex those but I'm WR in your brain but I'm WR but you're not wrong with that no I think you're right okay so where where will I be able to use Pythagoras when I set up my own business well you'll just know it if it comes up in quiz what is it well I is it the the square roots is equal to the sum of the uh something on the other two I don't know I don't know Pythagoras but so you didn't need it then Mom why do I no but it is good for you you make well then why didn't you do it why didn't you work harder you can't even remember it well I've got a degree and I am I've got a job and I contribute to society I don't I didn't ask for your autobiography I asked for you to tell me why Pythagoras is worth studying well I don't know J exactly so let's let's just recap over the conversation okay we we can be confident that the the the depiction of 16-year-old girls all going out to get pregnant to get a council house is evidence that you never did critical thinking or media studies at school okay and you're your your your use of the word snowflake suggests that even 20 30 years later you're still getting your ideas from very ignorant non-evidence-based right-wing journalism because that's the only place in which that word is ever treated with any Credence and finally your insistence that you need to study things like Pythagoras is somewhat undermined by the fact that you don't know what it is James I just want to say I would like my children to go to school because we all want we all everybody everybody wants their children to go to school today's phoning is about the difficulty of telling them why they should in the modern world not in Africa 30 years ago but in Bournemouth today I think in my opinion they should go to school because school will give them that resilience the discipline and Comm resilience discipline and commitment what subject did you do that in well just in in in having to deal you know personal skills interaction with other people learning how to deal with conflict you no fine but none of that's on the curriculum is it and that might that might be the point may maybe we should be paying a little bit more attention to stuff that is not actually traditionally on the curriculum but that's kind of the point the children are making when they say what's the point of studying pythag thank you Bri thank you for the kind words I hope you continue to enjoy how they broke Britain I I sense that uh were this a medical program it might have been prescribed let alone gifted it's coming up to 12:00 noon all right I've got a completely crazy idea for the next hour based entirely upon a nightmare that I had before I got to work this morning stay tuned to find out whether it works James O'Brien on LBC 3 minutes after 12 is the time so you may consider the next conversation to be ridiculous because you have already visited the places that I'm about to describe you may consider it to be fascinating because you haven't visited the places that I describe or you may consider it to be completely compelling because you have visited the places that I'm about to describe and you share my sense of absolute wonder that you hadn't noticed before how much the world had changed okay I just underpin that with the fact that I have on a couple of occasions been invited to do celebrity hunted that program where people kind of have to evade Pursuit and I've always thought on what one level at first glance I'd probably be quite good at it and then The more I've thought about it the more I've wondered whether I actually would and I think now that two hours have passed or 3 hours have passed since I had this experience I'm back to thinking I would actually be quite good at it even though in the moment I panicked and the reason I panicked was because I had to get to work but if you're on Celebrity hunted you don't have to get to work do you so anyway here's what happened still the school holidays at the moment so Mrs O'Brien very kindly offered to drive me to the station this morning cuz she was going to go and walk the dog I normally get the bus to the station and because I saw last night that the trains were not on strike Sadi Khan had reached a settlement with the rmt and the muted industrial action for this week had been postponed um inevitably the uh right-wing newspapers are furious with him about this but they also would have been furious with him if he hadn't reached it's almost as if they're completely corrupt and biased isn't it I don't know I how cross would the Daily Telegraph have been today if sadique Khan hadn't managed to prevent the rmt from striking this week on a scale of 1 to 10 yeah that's what I thought but he has so now the front page story is Khan bows to unions over tube strikes so if you're sadik Khan not only do you get your surname in the headline when Rishi sunat gets his gets his first name it's always rishy this and rishy that God knows it was Boris the the other and Boris but if he manages to negotiate with the rmt uh to the point where a moted 4-day strike is suspended just 20 minutes before it was due to start he gets attacked but if he hadn't managed to reach a settlement with the rmt he would have been attacked just bear that in mind because it's an election year and I just think that's quite keep an eye on these people because they do not wish you well anyway I made a mistake this morning of not checking the travel if you're wondering why a Hot Shot High Fly Like Me doesn't get a limousine to work the answer is Greta tumberg and teenage daughters so I normally get public transport into work and I normally forget to check that everything's running on time because usually it does and I know I'm in London so the idea of walking out of your front door confident that a bus will be along in a minute is alien to to many many people listening to this program but I I live in I still live in London I I still there two or three different buses I can get to the same destination and I very rarely would wait more than 8 minutes some days I literally just step onto the bus as it put those are the best days aren't they the days when you just you see the bus coming as you come around the corner and you know you don't even have to increase your pace you're just going to carry on walking at the same Pace the bus approaches the bus stop you approach the bus stop from the north the bus is coming from the south the bus slows the doors open you haven't changed your pace at all you remove your phone from your pocket and you step onto the bus and you pop your phone on the on the reader and you make your way and it's as if it's it's as if it's choreographed and for a brief moment you feel like you're starring in la la land or some beautiful Hollywood musical everything is perfectly calibrated and the and then about 3 days a year then you get to your destination you walk into the tube station you click on the reader again you make your way down the stairs you notice that the train is coming towards you as you come down the stairs to the platform and you know that the train is going to and you get on the train at the same spot so that you're near the right exit when you get to your destination and you know that this is going to fit perfectly so again you don't change your pace you don't Quicken your pace you don't slow down you don't stop the train is moving from the West you are coming in an easterly Direction and as as you get to the point where you prefer to get on the train every day the train Slows To A Hal the doors open and without breaking stride you step onto the tube and you get a seat those at the age of 52 next week those are the days that I dream of I used to dream of winning Oscars now those are those are the moments of peak and complete satisfaction for me when the public transport planets align and everything fits together like I don't know a hand into a glove but I digress so I didn't check Mrs O'Brien kindly drops me off at the station I tole down the stairs I look at the board it says next train 18 minutes 18 minutes and I think well Mr still probably so I ring her quickly I so you still around she goes yeah I'm just turning around I said oh can you drive me to eing I'll get on the Elizabeth line and she says yeah of course I can darling so I I come back up the stairs I get back in the car uh and it it's an unfamiliar route to go from that station to that station so I use my phone I use ways on my phone yeah and put in the destination and pop it on the dashboard for her so she can see where she's going and get to eling Broadway hop out of the car a bit early because you you know there's one ways and stuff like that um thank you very much and then I'm standing on the pavement in eing and I realize that my phone is still on the dashboard of my wife's car that's fine because I carry around a little leather credit card holder which contains a bit of ID a few bank cards it's got a 20 note in the back of it in case of emergency so that doesn't and I Pat the back pocket of my jeans and I remember that I'm not wearing the trousers I wore yesterday and that my little card holder my wallet if you prefer is in the other trousers so I am at eing Broadway my wife is driving away with my phone I I made a half-hearted effort to catch her up in the hope that she might stop at the next lights but she's disappeared over the Horizon and I I don't have any bank cards on me and I've got to be at work in an hour and a half right so when I was a kid I would have found a call box and reversed the charges to my dad and my dad would have fixed it he would have rescued me or you could get your mom to drive to the station and pay for your ticket at the other end but you don't know phone numbers anymore you don't have I mean I could actually have phoned my mom in kidster I still know that number off by heart and I do actually know my wife's mobile off by heart but I don't even know if you can make reverse charge phone calls anymore do they still exist I have no idea now thankfully I had £15 in the pocket of these trousers because well not to go into too much detail it was on the kitchen work toop when I came down to have my breakfast this morning and it was definitely mine so I just slipped it in into my pocket so I could actually get from heing Broadway to Tottenham Court but first of all you you have to go and speak to a human being you can't use cash so eing Broadway thankfully is a ticket that still has staffed ticket booths probably because of the Elizabeth line I I know some of this detail won't be relevant to you if you're listening in witness or KOA lumor but but the point stands and I'll get to it eventually I promise I always do even on the days when you think I never will I I I I in interact with a human being there's various different options I'm pretty sure I'll be able to spot a few people for a few quid when I get to this end Chris Moes actually I bumped into Chris mes on the way and he's lent me 20 quid so I'm fine I can get home but it suddenly occurred to me that if you actually find your and it's more likely to be as a consequence of crime than of incompetence as it was in my part and also that break of my normal routine so my normal routine would involve checking my pockets tap in my phone knowing my wallet's there but because I was being driven to the station this morning rather than doing it in all the usual ways my normal routine went out of the window do you know you can't even buy a coffee here at LBC towers with cash I had to ask I had to ask someone to I said if I give you £120 will you buy me a double espresso on your card because they won't take cash over the over the counter I mean just the whole world if you've lost your phone and your and your bank cards the whole world is against you it's like a sort of it's a bit like like The Truman Show but in a negative way they're sending these constant obstacles for you to overcome so I suddenly realized I I do not sound like Susan Hall Andy this was entirely my own fault I was not a victim of any crime whatsoever mythical or otherwise and so what happens cuz you can't K and cornwall's been in touch already to say try finding a phone box and she's right so if you find yourself unexpectedly phoneless and cardless and you don't have any cash this is a crucial point because if I hadn't had that 15 quid in my pocket I would have had to get in a black cab to Leicester Square without telling him unless it was one of those happy occasions where they recognized me but most people can't take that risk or or or hope for that outcome and then tell him when we got here I'm just going to have to pop inside and get the money now and then I'd have to find someone who had like 60 70 quid cash on them so that I mean tricky you've got no card and you've got no phone and you are in a you're far from home or from the office what do you do what do you act well I beg your pardon what did you do that's the topic you see I told you I'd get there in the end what did you do cuz if I hadn't had had that 15 quid in my pocket what what the heck would I have done and it is that X I got the Elizabeth line to uh Tottenham Court row 1470 return so I've got 30p and but if I hadn't had that 15 quid in my pocket so in the 21st century hellscape wherever you are and and remember this is a big city so there's probably more oper but what do you actually do if you haven't got your phone and you haven't got a bank card and and it's a world where I mean when's the last time you saw a functioning phone box what do you do do you ask a stranger to borrow their mobile I was at that point until when until I remembered the 15 quid in my pocket I thought I'm going to have to ask a stranger and then I'm going through have I been into any shops around here I and and pulling the old show biz thing has anyone ever said oh I love your show there's that Blok in Moss Bross there's a bloking moss Bross who said he loves my show when I went in looking for a oh Christ Moss Bross doesn't open until 9:00 I've got to be at work but so you got all these mental gymnastics that you're going through and I've got that very small added bonus of being vaguely recognizable you don't have that what did what do you do what do you actually do 0345 606 0973 I was stuck in Cambridge once but my mom went to kidderminster station and paid for my ticket at that end and then and then they issued the ticket to me at this end but I had to be able to phone my mom and what if you don't know any numbers off by heart I did a quick Roundup in the office everyone knows their childhood landline number but do you know your mom's mobile number off by heart how often do you speak to her every day but you don't know her number off by heart if you lost your phone and it had her number in it how would you contact her you see what I mean 0345 6060 973 I have a 19-year-old colleague he's looking at me as if I'm speaking Mandarin at the moment but that's the point the world has changed Y Man the world has turned you don't understand the burdens that my generation carry what do you do and that is why that initial moment of absolute Panic is why I thought that I wouldn't be very good on Celebrity hunted but once the initial Panic has passed and I thought I don't have to be if I didn't have to be at work I think probably could have pulled it off and thank you to Josh who points out James you've got 30p that's enough to feed a family for a week it is in nework uh so 16 after 12 is the time what did you do what can you do what do you do 0345 6060 973 and who got more stuck than me what's the most stuck you've ever been you're standing there cuz I had that little moment of I'm going to miss work and I'm not going to be able to phone work to tell them that I'm going to miss work what am I going to do I yeah hit the numbers now you will get through James O'Brien on LBC James O'Brien on LBC 1990 minutes after 12 I don't I don't want to turn into one of those old fogies who says things like oh well the technology is supposed to make life easier but it's actually made things more complicated we've all been there we've all been at a self checkout till in the supermarket and thought God life was much easier when you could actually deal with a human being but if you find yourself uh without all of your means of paying for things then what can you do Alex says this is my top anxiety dream consequently I've taught my daughter a song I made up of my mobile number um I'd started doing this when she was three she's 11 now and can still sing it it's a small way of knowing that she has a hope in Hell of getting in touch with me if she's stuck in the real world without a phone but then she'd have to get some but then you'd have to go up to some my actually one of my children was on a bus that broke down it was her first bus trip on her own in preparation for going to big school and it broke down and she did didn't have a phone we were waiting for her at the other end so she went into a Bookshop another good reason why bookshops inod and asked if she could use the phone to ring to ring us so you can do it but um K tells us all the phones in our local phone boxes have been replaced by defibrillator units I'm not going to fall into that trap K I'm not going to start slagging off defibrillator units end up in tomorrow's daily mail I'm a big fan of defibrillator units but what do you do in in 2024 if you have neither phone nor bank card and you're and you're far from home and it is it's 8 o'clock in the morning Steve's in wilam so Steve what have you got oh hello hi hi Steve hello hello Steve what have you got hello can you hear me yes uh I had a very very interesting afternoon on Friday um I'm someone who does like I'm a handy person and um I was basically doing some decorating also clearing some wood so I wented something called a zip van which you need your phone to actually operate basically to open it and shut it yes I'm familiar with um yeah so uh basically while I was loading all this wood in the van I very stupidly hooked my jacket up on the gate but I was going past it all the time but of course I went into the house came out jacket gone so my phone cards everything gone was it a nice jacket no no it's really you know oh sorry I shouldn't say that hello yeah carry on um okay Steve so Steve just I'm just going to put you on pause for a minute and talk to everyone else so this is a bit of a risk this topic right I I just want you to be aware of the fact that I take these risks on your behalf okay we just had to dump Steve because he swore we're going to give him another go but this is this is why you don't get nice things you see this could be the last big risk of 2024 and it's only the what is it the eighth day back to Steve so anyway they nicked your lovely jacket and that meant you had no phone no cards and an open zip van yes anyway so um I was able to do one trick in the take stuff away I came back and then um basically the van went out now the phone Line's gone now see hear me no I can't this is this is I right I'm sticking with it it's 23 after 12 verdict so far should have talked about parking tickets Sarah's in Guilford Sarah what would you like to say I did this I drove 20 miles to do some shopping I got there and I had nothing no card no phone all at home so what I did you got a car yeah I've got a car mean c you this is a completely different proposition I was on foot I had nothing okay but by that time I was on foot yeah but you could have gone back to your car and got yes and then what driven 20 miles home and then gone 20 no no all right carry on no I wasn't going to do that thinking of the environment so I marched into a a branch of my bank and I said I am who I am and I can prove it and I want 500 how did you prove it how did you prove it well they ask your name they ask your address they ask for the registered telephone number they have for you they ask you of any regular direct debits the only at 8:00 in the morning was it oh no not 8:00 you go you see I've got to get to work I'm on the radio at 10:00 and they gave so so you give them name address phone number over the counter and they'll give you I don't even know what my bank is because it's an internet Bank oh what branch do you go into if you've got a first I could go to a Sant and there what time do they open Sarah I don't know I don't B with you're the expert yeah but not with santand yeah listen this I thought this this is I thought this was a safe subject I listened to your your you heard him swear if you were on hold did you I I did I did I thought that was very bad no it was no know no excuse I'm glad his Jackie got Nick the potty mouth little time was honestly I know ious Behavior but anyway your advice is no good to me because it was 8:00 in the morning and and listen it's not about me this it's about the 1.3 million people waiting for me to start Speed it's them that would be the real losers yes it would be and we would like it if you if you were they have to get Nick Ferrari to hang on for a bit longer they'd be uproar in the aisles they'd be they'd be there'd be a revolution in the so what do you do what do you actually do and and Sarah with respect you had a car so you know you could have driven somewhere you could have driven to a friends you could have done so Joe's in Birmingham Joe what happened well this is a story going back when I was at University which about know 15 years ago now yeah that counts yeah I was on the way back I was on the way back from from a 6-hour coach Journey from Canterbury to Birmingham and I was absolutely exhausted and I had back in the day where I didn't have phone contract it was one of those hazy go type scenarios and I had a huge suitcase I was more or less in tears and just wanted to be home but that was your fault though that you'd run out of credit on your phone yeah but as a poor student I've not got a huge amount of of you know I didn't have a huge amount of money I know but this is this is not this these are not sort of it's not like the the the gods have conspired against you is it it just it's is poor forward planning but anyway what did you do so so I ended up going into a phone box I had no cash on me but I had a stroke of Genius and I thought hang on a minute I've got one of those little trolley key ring token things and I thought well that's the same size as a pound coin right put into a trol so I thought well this might works I'll put it into the phone box and it registered it as a pent and I was able to use that to call my dad and they dad to the rescue so that but that involves a working phone box and you had a sort of fake quid in your pocket so again this is not this is not nothing it's well I mean yeah to to answer your question what you what would I do in today's world I probably just walk home and uh give up yeah but I couldn't I can't walk from eing to Leicester Square in time to be on air at 10 well maybe I could how long would that take to anyway I digress thank you no one yet has suffered as as violently and as viciously as I do and the banks open about half past n so that's no good that's no good is it 0345 6973 what can you do what do you do in the modern world so we're going to wipe out the phone boxes now there are no phone boxes that was 15 years ago there are no phone box is there any public phones anywhere and lots of places don't take cash so even if you've got it anyway Martin's in brist Martin what have you got hi James I love the show pressure's on Martin this is not going well mate so it's all on you now okay we leave it with me no worries so what it was I was having a bit of a change of career I live in Bristol and I decided to do a painting and decorating course in dford which is miles away so Monday morning it was about 8:00 I was ready ready to PR the first day of my course and I left my digs and I threw my bag my digs keys my wallet and my phone and my car key into my car which somehow managed to lock itself right so you got nothing you could have broken the window though well see this is how my brain works I'm always finding Solutions straight away that was that was the first thing I was going to do obviously I mean there was no in the street it was raining and I was actually looking around people's Gardens trying to find like a rock or garden name or whatever smash the window that would have been a better story no offense but if You' smashed the window with a garden gome you'd have gone straight to the top of the class oh so what happened Sly so what happened merci there was a lady on her mobile phone in her car on the drive that I noticed I went up to her and said look I'm really sorry but lot more stuff out of my car um I couldn't remember my wife's telephone number but I can remember the landline mercifully she was in um I've got AA cover with how many people remember their landline number though well I people don't have one anymore it's all about the Internet isn't it I haven't had a land this is it this is it yeah so what happens St you know I had a landline I remember the number uh my wife was in so she was able to um put me in touch with Lloyd's Bank uh I explained the situation I had AA cover so I don't think anyone really appreciates the depth of the hole I was in all of you people had sort of you're in you're in very minor indentations I was in a deep deep hole so you knew your landline number I suppose going up to a stranger and asking to use their phone that's that's that's that's the thing like but even then what are you going to do got come back I well well well done though not everyone's taking this seriously n says you could have sold your body M I've got 30p already what's the what's the you know uh and Jason says you could have hitchhiked apparently it's a 2hour walk from where I was to where I needed to be so if I'd set out immediately I could have got here with minutes to spare but I'd have been freezing cold and and in a state of high D and everyone would be ringing me to find out where I was and my wife would be answering the phone say I don't know I dropped him off two hours ago no one knows where he is I thought he'd be at work by now he could I mean kri be introducing tro it's half past 12 Amelia Cox has your headlines James O'Brien on LBC James O'Brien on LBC 3 minutes after 12 is the time if you are in London you may have seen some buses the sentence isn't finished all right don't worry you may have seen some buses with my face on the side there some rather nice buses advertising LBC and some of them feature me and Nick and Sheila and and Andrew I think is it anyway I'm definitely there I don't really notice anyone else so would that work could you say to a bus driver um that's me that see come here but first of all you're not going to get a bus do you think bus drivers know what adverts they're carrying on the side of their bus I've had a message off a family member of someone working on the production team he turned the radio on about 10 minutes ago and said I've got no idea what you guys are talking about this hour I've set myself the challenge of getting to 1:00 without him knowing so this is nich R you're in you're in you're in The In Crowd you know what we're talking about if you just tuned in You' got no idea what we're talking about at the moment could you use the fact that your face is on the side of a bus as proof of identity to get a free bus ride apparently you can tell bus drivers that you are unable to pay and they're someone has told me they're Duty bound to drive you but I've heard loads of stories of bus drivers refusing to let people on if they haven't got the fair so in the 21st century in a world without phone boxes if you've got nothing on you and you're a long way from where you need to be what can you do you got no and and I might you know this is the best case ever for getting a smart watch isn't it I've never thought of that I've never fancied one before I wear quite a nice old-fashioned watch A Clockwork watch it's have it's got a battery I don't have to wind it up but it's not waterproof it's quite nice it's simple and I really like it and I've always resisted the urge to get a smartwatch but this is a pretty good reason to get because you've got a smartwatch you're never going to be where I found myself this morning the situation that I found myself in this morning and I I don't I don't know I think I I don't know the car lots of you have had it with car um related issues you've locked yourself out of the car I wouldn't be panicking as much if I'd locked myself out of the car it's not quite the same you are alone you're alone in the world with nothing in your pockets that's the point you don't have a car you don't you're not if you've got a car whether you've got the key for it or not you're not alone in the world you're alone in the world with nothing in your pockets and you're a miles away from where you need to be what do you do 0345 6060 973 bus drivers do have a duty of care so they could give a promise to pay about would they hello um I'm terribly sorry I I I I've I've come to work by mistake too much with n and I what can you do 12:36 is the time yasmin's in leester Yasmin what would you like to say oh hi yeah um I found myself in leer City Center with nothing why how what happened well you know how you change your trousers and your wallet was in the wrong one women change handbags oh yeah fair enough okay I changed a handbag and got dropped off at the city center um thinking everything's fine um realized that I got nothing in it did you have a deadline did you have to be somewhere by a certain time I didn't have to be somewhere no one has suffered no dramatic the dramatic traumatic actually is being stranded with no phone no money no cards no nothing go on then and I have not used a phone box in Donkey years but Leicester city center has been re recently regenerated the High Street had got a modern phone box on it so I thought back in the old days you could reverse charges well how long ago is this when did this happen to you this happened last year yeah and you rang the operator and said can I have a reverse charge no no no I I I went to the phone box thinking like the old days do reverse charges me and my husband ask him to pick me up and went to the phone box it had instructions lift the handset down blah blah blah which I did and I got a phone call for free I was able to ring my husband tell him what had happened and where I was so he could come pick me up did you get a phone call for free fre why did you get a phone call for free Leicester City Center I have no idea these new fangle phone box I don't know if London has them I don't know if it's if we don't I will be holding sadik Khan's feet to the fire next time he's in the studio what the hell is Le go so you just pick up a phone and you get one free phone call yeah I got a free phone call okay I was able to ring home landline I didn't remember my husband's mobile number but I have a home phone my I have a landline purely because my mom couldn't remember any numbers and found it difficult to ring Mobile numbers so she rang landline to landline which she was Li godess I'm beginning no I get it so well done nobody else has a landline my children don't have a landline if you didn't have what would who would you have run and you're lucky someone picked up really but what would very lucky so very I mean very lucky we still have a landine and i' I've resisted the temptation to get rid of the landline uh but a lot of my friends and all my family they got rid of their landlines what would I have done what would I mean what I would have had to either ask someone to use their mobile phone and try and get my wife to come back or I'd have had to convince someone to let me travel for free that's not necessarily celebrity hunted territory Andrew's been in touch he says did you consider parkour you know what parkour is that's that cool kind of urban sport where you jump off bus shelters and swing off lampos free running I think you might know it as well I mean I've been doing that all weekend Andrew my knees are shot to pieces I don't know if I could have launched another round of Parkour on the occasion 12:39 is the time um John points out that I would surely be carrying one of my signed books with me and I could perhaps have sold that mate I can't get no one wants a signed one anymore it's the unsigned ones I've told you before the unsigned ones are going for absolute King's ransoms at the moment but no I didn't have that and I'm not being melodramatic youan in rural SC well I take your point if you are in rural Scotland but it's interesting that you that you you you you cannot conceive of this if you're my age because when you were young there would always be means and ways anyway I know why so many people are ringing me the quality of call so far has been very mediocre but we shall press on more in Hope than expectation Fanny's in cheltam Fanny what would you like to say I was going to say well I got a story to tell you but I was going to say I suppose we should recognize just for one small moment that there are some people in London especially who live every day like that but not to put a downer on things well no they don't live every day like that I mean I respect your kind of social conscience but they don't accidentally end up in the middle of nowhere with nothing in their pockets they might be on their ERS and we we we on this program do are very careful and responsible to acknowledge that plight and that existence but they would not find themselves a 3-hour walk from where they needed to be with nothing in their pockets no yeah so well I I was in Townsville in Australia yeah and it was quite a few years ago it was before before we had mobile phones and I was going on a trip there for a week to have some fun and some beers I was on my year traveling very nice and um I took $20 out of the ATM before cuz you didn't do credit cards you just had cash before getting onto the ferry got on the ferry got to the other end and I realized I'd left my card in the machine oh so that's all I had for a week $20 and I was on my own right I didn't know anybody I was on the other side of the world so I thought you could have had money wired to you could could no no no no no no no no I mean I mean I'm only there I was there for like 5 days wired to where Bank back in there I don't even think there was a bank on magnetic Island no okay this is good carry on so I thought I'm going to have to get some money somehow so I was in a bar and there were a group of Rowdy I think I do believe they were mainly German men tourists yes who were behaving they were they were rowdy rowdy and some of them were burping and doing all this kind of thing so I because I have a particular talent in that area I challenged them to a burping competition right and um we started having this competition and I of course I knew I was going to win I can't end already gone downhill this phone and so I can't ask you to demonstrate your burp I'd like to but I I feel I'm probably going to go in trouble I'm not going to do that it's it's many years ago those childish things behind you Fanny I want to hold on to my dignity as much as possible okay how much did you make I made over $200 well but do I mean surely once you've burped once they you're a ringer and they see they know what's happening or was it all on the table in one go I didn't do it all on the same night oh I see you came back I came back for more and that saw you over the week that's strong and that got you back to the mainland and then what else was I supposed to do I don't know I don't know I well I couldn't do that I mean this is supposed to be things that I could have done I I can hardly find a group of Rowdy Germans and challenge them to a burping competition which I wouldn't win anyway you might have some other secret talent that you're not quite aware of I've got three nipples I suppose I could have a bet on are I could say 10 quid says I've got more nipples than you there you are could backfire of course it could you could do pin the tail on the nipple or something it wouldn't work though you just don't know I I don't know that yeah thank you and well done and you know if you get back in training Fanny you never know you could you could still scale some dizzy Heights Esther in Bournemouth makes an excellent point she says I can't get rid of my landline James because then I'd never be able to find my mobile phone because I use the landline to ring it whenever I've lost my mobile phone in the house and I can't use a watch unless it's near my phone can I well can I or not well which one does which one if I've got an Apple phone does that need the phone to be an Apple Watch does that need to be near the phone to work yeah so I've give out false information then so if I had a smartwatch it would not be saving me from the fact that I'd left my phone at home would I just be adding to my frustration and Trauma because I'd be thinking can't pay for my ticket with a with a watch anyway I I mean happily I was a very brave Soldier and I and and and and I got through it all but I still don't know what um I still don't know what You' do what if I was in the Countryside by accident and you have nothing in your pockets what do you actually do it's 12:45 James O'Brien on LBC James O'Brien on LBC it is 1248 you are listening to James O'Brien on LBC I I think going back to that post office conversation that we had in the first hour I think Ed Davy's probably got bigger problems from the current crop of prominent politicians than any anybody else and the Tories obviously have had 14 years to to fix some of these problems Nigel farage inevitably is trying to bring K sta into it by pointing out that K sta was director of public prosecutions uh for some of the period some of the relevant period um which rather demonstrates the fact that he is neither across the story nor even um has watched the actual program because one thing you learn from that drama is that the post office prosecute their own cases the CPS had AB absolutely no say whatsoever over the prosecution of sub postmasters but possibly I'm doing Farish a disservice maybe he's not being ignorant maybe he does know and just doesn't care but um but Ed Davey's got a problem here I think and and indeed sort of other other liberal Democrats as well who continued really to just parrot the um uh post office line um but so that that's not going anywhere you can use some apple watches to pay if you've got your C cards loaded on them you can use them to pay so that is a good reason to do it and even on the really top top of the range ones you can even make phone calls from them if you haven't got your phone with you so it's not just a satellite of your phone it's a self contained item of Technology um I quite like this I was once this isn't signed and perhaps you'll be able to work out why I was once arrested erroneously yeah everyone's erroneously I was released without charge but they've taken me to a police station miles away from where I lived and when let me go they just Turf me out and I had nothing I got to the end of the road before thinking to myself hang on I'm 14 surely this isn't allowed so I went back into the station and made the case that they had a duty of care and then they begrudgingly drove me home I've have no idea how I would have got back otherwise and then Google pay on a watch doesn't need the phone so it's all there 12:50 is the time uh car's in croor Carrie what would you like to say um so this was a situation with my parents who in their mid 80s uh they flew over with me to Rena in itti watch me run a marathon um they decided to stay on an extra day so I flew back to London they decided they'd go on nostalgic train trip over to the coast I can't remember I think somewhere near Ry oh yeah so they they um got on the train and uh I think during the journey my father realized that he no longer had his wallet in his pocket so that contained all his money because he's so old fashion he still carries Rand L of cash right and his card 4 nice passport okay not quite as not quite as tough as I had it in eing Broadway this morning Carrie well no I think it I think it central London central London in a country that I speak the language of I don't think your parents were suffering at all in these difficult C carry on absolutely no Italian Bar obviously get me a beer get me a coffee you know that was the limit of it but my mother said to my father what are we going to do need I need the Lo they got to the other end got off the train he didn't even have a penny but to go I don't know if it cost a penny had no money to be able to go to the toilet so my poor mother said to me I just had to crouch behind the platform oh 80s um get back on the train and go back to Rena whereby they Enlisted the help of um uh local policemen but of course they were in um Rena they don't speak very much English there in particular and uh so I called when I got the message when I land in London and uh was very fortunate because I got hold of the woman who I had rented the Airbnb from and at the kindness of her heart she said she would go immediately to pick up my parents from the station oh with 100 EUR um of which of course you know my father's going to pay back but how trusting how lovely of somebody a complete stranger um so rescued them picked them up and took them back to their uh their without without that and and also without you you know it's without me what would they what would they what would have happened if if they'd had no I mean they'd have had to I don't I mean my surprise it doesn't happen more often my friend's dad who's a similar age to your parents went for a jog in Barcelona he's very fit you you'd like him you could run marathons together um yeah and and he got lost and he didn't speak any Spanish and he was missing for hours they were really worried they called the police and everything and then he just sort of turned up again he came around the corner and recognized the bit of street he just he's he's quite Dy if that's the correct word to use he just got lost for hours everyone was panicking except him I'm surprised it doesn't happen more often I know well I think um I'm not saying in Italy because of course happens everywhere but he had no um you know couldn't remember anyone going through sock yet and my M mother continually goes on at him because he's all fashion where puts it in his back po pocket TR apart from when they said when they were getting on the train there really nice couple help him get on the train well there it is that's exactly what it would has he learned his lesson or does he still keep his money in his back pocket um I nobody still kicked it in his back pocket habits die hard they do indeed they do uh thank you g Cecilia is in Cecilia what's your story so my story takes place in another country as well um so my mom and I had gone to Athens just for a few days yes and we'd had dinner in like the main Market Square which was very busy um and then yes monaki I think it was oh monaki okay yes very very busy yes and so it came to probably about 11 o'clock at night we decided it was time to go home and the first Port of Call for us was a cab I actually have a disability which means I can't walk very long es comfortably so you know cab was the first option really the most sensible option unfortunately we could not get a cab for love nor money we stood probably for about 45 minutes trying Ubers trying to flag one down and both of our B our phones were very low on battery yeah that's scary yeah so we were thinking we have no idea how we're going to get home eventually we were looking on maps looking at where our apartment was and we thought that maybe if we took it slowly we could walk so we decided that we didn't really have any other option than to walk obviously with my mom's support and going very slowly it was sort of a last dit Resort yeah so we're walking and we're walking and we're walking and I'm sure you've been to Athens before how I describe it to other people is that it's a very beautiful city but it's got pockets of areas that are not so nice yeah like everywhere really like everywhere exactly and so I had this I had probably about 10% on my phone left I had the apartment in my maps and we were walking and we were walking and it was sort of getting quieter and quieter as we went away from the very busy public areas um and we just kept walking and walking and walking and eventually we were like this doesn't seem right it seems like we've gone too far we're walking too far I will mention as well I had awful blisters on my feet run out of time Cecilia going to have to hurry anyway So eventually we were completely lost my phone then died we were both panicked in the middle of nowhere didn't speak the language it was nighttime we ran into a cafe that had some old locals there um and we managed to get in to the cafe and we said we don't know what we're doing he couldn't understand us because we don't speak Greek very well luckily because my father is Greek I knew one word which is after guino which is car so we managed to communicate to him that we need b car needs the cab and thankfully one of his friends that was sat in the um shop with him was actually a taxi driver and so and he drove you back to the to the apartment probably the most relieved you felt in a very very long time absolutely yes oh I know how you felt thank you Cecilia it coming up to 1257 this this one caught my eye cuz this sounds I don't know if you've watched the tourist don't spoil it for me I watched the first series I haven't watched the second series yet I'm watching the new har and Cobin thing with Michelle Keegan have you watched that yet on Netflix flip it he it's good are you watching that I binged it all if you've done fog's inhaled the whole thing already it's um but this one made me think of that so 1993 I was 20 years old backpacking around Australia James I answered an advert to help build a fence on a farm I was instructed to tell the coach driver to let me off at a Crossroads by a creek then to walk a mile down to the entrance where there was a walkie-talkie to call the farm to be picked up the bus was delayed and I ended up being dropped off at night I got off the bus walked around to the back to get my bag but the bus drove off I shouted and waved but he disappeared with my backpack then I realized my wallet passport and instructions to find the farm were in the pocket of my backpack my heart sank as the reality of the situation sank in after the first minute I screamed and shouted and then I cried finally I realized that I had to do something now this is what I was like in eing Broadway this morning finally somebody has got an experience that stands comparison with my nightmare my Monday morning nightmare I remember the message about I remembered the message about walking down the except you've got an Escape Route I Had No Escape Route I was just stranded in the middle of one of the biggest cities in the world where the linga franer is a language I speak quite well I remember the message about walking down the road to the farm so I had two options luckily I picked the right Road I found the farm entrance but the walkie-talkie was flat I remembered that on my game boy when the battery was flat if you rub them together with Vigor for a few seconds you got a few more minutes game time so I did this with the walkie-talkie batteries got about 20 seconds managed to contact the Farmer they came to pick me up and because my mother had always taught me to put the address I was traveling to on my luggage along with a phone number I got my bag back a week later and that is a really good story actually that almost has the beginnings of a of a of a of a box set on it doesn't it almost has the beginnings of a drama series is it as good as it looks so I'm full you not even started I'm four four what are you talking about the harand Cobin one or fill me once yeah unbelievable she's great isn't she she is good and they're all good in it no spoil the cting harand comes in whenever he's in town it's a paline that's not a name drop I'll introduce you next time but the casting on all of the shows that they've done for Netflix has been phenomenal yeah it stands out and and I'm not going to obviously I won't spoil it but um it's it's almost you you can't spoil it because there are so I've never w never watch anything with so many twist and King of the twist King of the Twist and Turn King of the Twist and then new book he's got myON bolitar and win in it again as well who are his best ever Creations that's how haven't read books I must I'd lend you the lot uh Sheila's up next if you missed any of today's show you can listen she's doing an hour on her favorite television drama serials you can listen back to the whole show on global player where you can also pause and Rewind live radio loads of podcasts there all LBC shows to catch up on pause and Rewind live radio on global player where you're always in control download it for free from your app store I'll head to Global player.com tomorrow at 10: I'll be telling you how I got home today that's another hour I reckon don'tk you Tom swri with you at 4: but now on LBC it's time for Sheila foger I watched it till 2 a.m. Sunday morning how ridiculous is that every every episode I just had to keep going James O'Brien on LBC

Channel: LBC

Views: 51,878

Keywords: lbc, lbc live, watch lbc, interview, interviews, politics news, british politics, uk politics live, live debate, debate, Brexit, James O’Brien, Iain Dale, Nick Ferrari, Johnson, Sunak, Andrew Marr, Marr, O'Brien, News Agents, uk politics, shelagh fogarty, tom swarbrick, lewis goodall, andrew castle, sangita myska, rishi sunak, david lammy, natasha devon, parliament, economy, analysis, debates, commentary, updates

Id: PXw90oxVDt8

Length: 141min 42sec (8502 seconds)

Published: Mon Jan 08 2024