Political Rumble With Rajdeep Sardesai: Has EC Done Its Duty As Neutral Umpire? | Lok Sabha Election

and joining me now are two very special guests I'm joined by the former Chief election commissioner Dr s y quesi and the former election commissioner ashoke lavasa appreciate both of you joining us uh let's cut the chase s week seven phase election and with every phase controversies around the election commission continue to swirl the Election Commission Now facing a over not releasing the exact voter turnout numbers instead supplying only the percentage of voter turnout and saying we are not legally mandated to do this under form 17c we will only provide this data to candidates and their agents does that work for you Dr quesi are you happy satisfied with the way this election is being conducted well actually you know the positive side of the election that the fact that this is the biggest election in the world 15 million people are organizing it things are happening with Clockwork PR and uh almost everybody is doing his job very well so they are all being subsumed by the controversies which have been generated and the there are only two controversies one is about enforcement of the model code of conduct even-handedly and the second is the question of numbers to me the controversy about the numbers is totally meaningless pointless because the data which is essential which is important is already in the public domain in the sense that 17c is a form which is filled by the presiding officer at the end of the poll he cannot go home without signing it and without giving the copy the after getting the signatures of the agent giving it to the agents or the candidates so once this data is already in the public domain what is the harm in releasing it to the public what is so secret about it what is so sa about it what so because the the election commission has told the Supreme Court they're not legally mandated to give these numbers you're telling me that there is nothing sacran this should be given to the public as it has in the past what is what has changed so suddenly exactly exactly that is the question because this controversy according to me is totally needless avoidable and it is damaging the reputation of the election commission why are they doing it to themselves why they should release it immediately and there was no reason to withhold it because you know the other controversy which I've been reading in the media that you know the very high the uh change was reported after a couple of days or four days or 11 days now to me all those changes are absolutely irrelevant because for me what is important is the data inside the machine that is where the future of the political party candidate is captured and only a magician can change it because they're under three four tier of security so evm data which is recorded in 17c is all that we need all other changes and debate and discussion to my mind are useless but you're saying that data must be provided to the public do you agree with that Ashok lavasa that the election commission cannot hide behind the so-called statutory framework and saying look form 17c will only be shown to candidates and their agents should the public not have the right to know a the absolute number of Voters in every constituency and B how many of them have actually voted and that should be available in real time in the public domain surely thank you Raj I agree entirely with what Dr kesi has said that Election Commission of India being the custodian of all this data it is in a position to release this data and make it comprehensible to the people and one must also understand that everything that the election commission does to build conf is not what is in law there are so many steps which it takes to reach out to people to make things convenient for people to facilitate their understanding in fact if you go back in time the entire exercise of sweep which was initiated when Dr kesi was in the election commission that is not legally required for the election commission to do but it is an effort to educate the voters it is an effort to win their trust and confidence so in in that ve what what I would feel is like the analogy that I often site about a cricket match going on where the organizers keep the score to themselves and don't display it publicly for the people to see now that they can get away by saying that you look we are keeping the scoreboard uh score card and there is a system by which that score can be verified that's all fine but why add to the anxiety of people by not disclosing the data which you already have now as far as a right to know the legality of all this which is being argued I think nobody can question the legality because in terms of the conduct of election rules form 17c is mandatory it is given it is signed by the priding officer so all that is fine and the fact that so many people uh the polling agents have the formy and through them the candidates also has information about the number of votes given in a voting station that is all fine but if you look at past practices the this data has always been released after a certain deg of accuracy and verification is done by the commission and of course you always have the K that there are certain category of votes which are not captured in this data because form 17c is only the record of number of votes cast in that particular polling station the other thing that I want to say yes go ahead go ahead if there are 10 candidates and there are 1500 poing stations there are so many people who will have this form 17c and the effort required by all of them to put this data together and then during compilation or doing the addition there could be mistakes made by the candidates and if they are expected to put out this data uh for public information it can lead to more confusion whereas the election commission which is the which is the custodian of this data which has access to this data and I think which is responsible for uh informing the people they are in a very good position to put this data out and it's very Elementary data that is being soled no I I take your point the problem of course Dr kesi is this is coming at a time when the credibility of the election commission itself is coming under question you've got the delay in the release of the final voter turnout data the unusually high uh revised figures the absolute absence of absolute numbers at the constituency and polling station level all of this is leading to suspicion should we be suspicious as voters of this country or are you completely confident that the delay for example in the release of the final voter dout data the unusually high revised figures sometimes going up to as much as 8% are you okay with all of this or is there something that is missing No No in fact I'm surprised that this confusion has been created and the think Election Commission itself is responsible for it why did the not release it on the same evening or the maximum the next morning it this to to me this data is a data belongs to the public it is already in the public domain and trying to say that it has to be kept secret secret from whom and why no there so you're so you're saying you're saying this data of the of the revised data should have been released right away not after 10 11 days am I correct quite right because there is no reason for the data to to change after so many days you know because I I'll tell you how the data is generated real time when you enter the polling station there is a form 17A which is writing your attendance you are number voter number one and voter number two voter number three and at 2:00 350 people have voted now one officer from Election Commission comes how many have voted so you see the last line and it said 350 and in any case every two hours this data is being conveyed to the election commission every two hours which is releasing it to the public so the whole day this data is becoming public at the end of the day only the totals have to be transferred to form 17c and the presiding officer cannot leave the poing station without point but but Dr kuresi the election commission is saying that this data is available on our website on our app just because we haven't made it available through a press release doesn't mean we are hiding something no no if that is true that it is available on the app or on the website that is fine I'm sure that is all people should be demanding uh press release or no press release although press release anything which enhances your credibility is in your own interest and anything which are you surprised are you surprised that this voter turnout is being revised by 78 often 9 10% does that trouble you is that something surprising it does it does surprise me because the only reason why some change happen you know in our time there used to be a press conference at the end of the day which has been discontinued for what good reason I don't know and we will our man officer will tell you that today the polling turnout has been x amount and he said but this is not a final figure because there are hundreds of cues where people are lined up and that will take another couple of hours final figures will come after two hours so even after two hours then you have the final figure release it and are you also surprised Ash lavasa are you surprised with the delay in the in in providing the final revised numbers is that surprising that it has took place after the first and second round after 11 days yeah it is surprising as I said Raj that in the second phase the data was released in on the third or fourth day so which means the system is capable of show displaying this data or giving it out so why did it take 11 days I failed to understand and delay in such cases is bound to create doubt and I think transparency is the best solution in these circumstances why why do you not make this data public after all the election commission runs a certain system which runs on the basis of procedures which are prescribed so as for the prescribed procedure data is being compiled in the police station it is being reported to the returning officer the returning officer after scrutiny and the Observer they also report the data to the election commission so there is no reason why people should not have this Elementary data of course I because maybe the election commission fears that if there is a mismatch then there will be people who will say something has so out of the fear that there could be a mismatch is what is worrying them no R I was coming to that precise point that you see whereas it is fine that Election Commission is not obliged to give you a ball by ball commentary of the process of election so that is fine the second thing is also that even if there is a mismatch subsequently that can be explained because dises in a large system can always arise something like million who are involved in the conduct of Elections most the possibility of mistakes and even if there are increases that have been reported I'm sure in the past also these figures have changed but the point is that the more open you are about your information and the explanation that you can provide for any inconsistency or discrepancy I think that is what will satisfy the people so both of you are calling really for openness and transparency in conclusion Dr quesi there is the other issue of the model code of conduct notices are sent for hate speeches or divisive speeches not to the individuals Narendra Modi doesn't get it Rahul Gandhi doesn't get it it goes to the part party president and then you get a sense that right after 5 weeks after complaints are made the election commission wakes up it almost seems as the election commission doesn't want to rock the vote especially when it involves the prime minister or or the most important leader in the opposition does that worry you that you know in in these five weeks politicians have continued to make what have seen by most people as divisive hateful speeches yes you know the I'm surprised that what happened in 2019 is being repeated and Ash laasa was was an actor in the whole thing and he knows it the inside story that for 25 days no action was taken on the model court and Supreme Court had to come down heavily uh why are you sitting over the why you not deciding and then hily commission sat and took decision you mind you nobody has questioned the decision howsoever 4y the decision may have been they're only questioning the timing how could you sit over it for 25 days and the this time the same thing is happening why are you taking so long and second interesting thing that happened when somebody violates we give a notice to that violator writing to his his party president and balancing it with writing to another party president now a third person who was also given notice he will say why are you giving me notice please write to my party president because the law is the same for all so mean obviously these are the kindest is toothless or spineless does it suggest the EC is toothless or spineless Mr lavasa which of the two either the E is toothless with this model code of conduct or spineless that it will not take on the absolute top people in this country I think this issue again Raj goes back to the issue of transparency that we were discussing and I have always held that all complaints pertaining to model code they should be put on the website there should be a timeline for dis proposal and action taken by the EC should equally be on the website so that people can know what is happening but there no action at the end of the day just sending a not sir just sending some kind of a stricture could the EC do more my point is could the E do more to stop these kind of speeches that are prima fa seen as divisive yeah so if you see uh Raj what has the EC done they've given a notice to the party which according to is welcome parties also should be made responsible other than the person against whom the complaint has been made so that is good the second thing is that they have G admonished or asked the parties to admonish U the people who have violated because otherwise they would not have issued this warning which means that they are admitting that violation of model code of conduct has taken place I take I take your point but the worry is Mr laasa that when it comes to Abhijit gangopadhyay the former judge of the Kolkata High Court he he is stopped from campaigning for 24 hours will you ever do that to a top leader that's my point will anyone ever tell a top leader sorry you violated a uh you've crossed a certain line you're not going to campaign for 48 hours imagine if that was done to the top leaders of this country yeah but would that be the signal to send out no again go back to the analogy of a referee do you think that a referee is not expected to give somebody out or show him a yellow card or a red card if there is an offense committed for Dr you want I'm having a problem with the audio of Mr laasa you want to take that Dr quesi should a red C should a red card be shown to any leader who violates the model code of conduct irresp how big or powerful he or she is absolutely because there are no different laws for different people simple so they should be banned from campaigning if you ban abijit gang upadya then ban top leaders as well for 48 hours yeah exactly what a different law exist for gang badya and for the others so you're very clear about that you're saying that if any leader is seen to make spiteful hateful speeches don't just send them notices ban them for 48 hours that would send out a more powerful signal am I correct correct even even the notice will have will be successful in 50% of the cases and if somebody is debarred from campaigning even for one hour the rest of the result will happen from there they will never repeat that either way I hope that the words that both of you are putting out will be heard by uh by those in power and in the opposition and that they will realize that they have a special resp yes go ahead Mr laasa yes yeah yeah there is just one more thing that I want to say and is also a cause of worry is that there seems to be some kind of alienation between civil society and the election commission or between the election commission uh I remember election always the as a Channel of communicating with the people and treat them as friends who will provide the bridge between Election Commission and the voters and I think Civil Society organizations also in the past have played a constructive role in uh making the processes smooth and conveying to the people uh something that the election commission would like to convey but there ofation is so there's a lack of faith and the election commission goes to the Supreme Court and says that these individuals have vested interest is civil society not doesn't have a voice so this so this is what is disturbing that this alienation between these stakeholders important stakeholders I think it's not good for uh the system as a whole and these are all matters all that we have been discussing I think the election commission is eminently capable to resolve them itself without seeking any judicial intervention so I think or without without the need for any judicial intervention well the very fact that there has been judicial intervention or various groups have gone to the Supreme Court is a cause for worry the election commission ultimately is expected to be the ultimate neutral umpire has it really played that role of the neutral umpire 10 seconds each Dr quesi how many marks are you giving them out of 10 have they really played a neutral ire honest answer well very difficult to answer that have they play a neutral ire sir have they been neutral or not in your view well I think they have not been very intelligent and wise in handling the situation they have created doubt about themselves and they have invited a Judicial Intervention which was prohibited by the Constitution during the process and they have themselves invited by their action so they have to do some introspection Mr lavasa have they played the role of a neutral umire has our confidence in the electoral process been announced or diminished yeah so I think that is something which everyone will view from his or her own perspective but surely the fact that so many questions are being raised so many uh judicial interventions are happening I think that does call for an introspection and I think there is no substitute for being more transparent okay I think that is the buzz word transparen please be transparent do not be opaque Election Commission is expected to restore confidence that the people should have in our electoral process Ashok lavasa and Dr s y kesi I appreciate both of you joining us here on the political Rumble thank you

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Length: 21min 18sec (1278 seconds)

Published: Thu May 23 2024