Podcast: Mark Driscoll: The ‘Trap’ & The Truth

[Music] since his abrupt resignation from Mars Hill Church in 2014 Mark Driscoll has claimed he was the victim of a vindictive plot but last week he dropped a bombshell he claimed that martial leaders were planning to accuse him of adultery if he didn't resign today two former high-level Mars Hill leaders joined me to set the record straight welcome to the Roy's report a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church I'm Julie Royce and if you've been watching the news you know that Mark Driscoll stunned just about everyone last week when he made a claim that he's never made before speaking to his congregation Driscoll said the church leaders at Mars Hill were going to use a nuclear option against him if he didn't resign in 2014 that nuclear option was a plan to falsely accuse Driscoll of adultery if he didn't resign from the church at least that's what Mark says well joining me me today is Sutton Turner Sutton was at Mars Hill when everything imploded in 2014 at the time he was one of only three executive Elders at Mars Hill and he had a front row seat to everything that was happening you'll also hear today from Miles Roadie miles was one of only eight Elders at Mars Hill who investigated the charges of bullying and intimidation against Mark Driscoll and Miles was at one of those meetings at Panera where Driscoll claims he learned of the plot against him this is going to be an eye-opening podcast and I'm so glad you've joined me but before we dive in I'd like to thank the sponsors of this podcast the restore conference and marcord of Barrington well I am so excited to announce the next restore conference June 9th and 10th at Judson University in Elgin Illinois joining us for this amazing two-day event to restore faith in God and the church will be many leading abuse Survivor Advocates these include Wade Mullen Scott McKnight Mary demuth and Kyle James Howard I'll be there as well but but by far what makes this Gathering so special is you the survivors allies activists and church leaders who truly desire to see healing and reform in the church for more information just go to Julie royce.com restore also if you're looking for a quality new or used car I highly recommend my friends at marquard of Barrington Marquardt is a Buick GMC dealership where you can expect honesty integrity and transparency that's because the owners there Dan and Kurt Marquardt Are Men of Integrity to check them out just go to buyacar123.com well again joining me today is Sutton Turner Sutton served on staff at Mars Hill from 2011 to 2014 first as a general manager and then as an executive pastor and executive Elder and board member and Sutton has done something that Mark Driscoll has never done and that is he has owned and apologized for the role that he had at Mars Hill and he's gone back and reconciled with people and so Sutton I just really appreciate that you've done that I appreciate the Integrity that you've walked this whole season with and so thank you so much for taking the time and for joining me thanks Julie I appreciate the opportunity to talk about this and we've been talking about doing a podcast together for a really long time so I'm I'm glad we're finally making that happen although not so happy about the circumstances under which uh we're doing this podcast and you know my understanding is when you heard this allegation coming from Mark Driscoll it hit you pretty hard right yeah and I I think about the the the men that were Elders at these Mars Hill churches that served so well during an investigation I mean like pastors investigating their Pastor um many of the guys that investigated Driscoll were people that Mark led to Christ um and Mark and they looked at Mark as a as a father figure um and not only as a pastor but a father figure so and and that was one of the reasons why I just was like you know what I I can't stand by and allow these statements to stick and this narrative to stick because it hurts some really good men that are still leading churches today small churches in the Puget Sound and other areas that are serving God and and serving their people and and I just I was like you know what I'm no longer a part of ministry and church leadership and I feel like I have the ability to say wait a minute I was there and let me communicate what actually happened isn't that kind of sad though that you almost have to be out of the Evangelical whole celebrity machine complex Ministry before you can speak although I will say as I mentioned in the open miles Rhodey who is a former pastor at Mars Hill also Elder one of the elders who investigated Mark Driscoll he did speak with me and I'm going to be playing clips of our interview that I had with him earlier this week just really appreciate him being willing to speak as well and he pastors one of those churches that was supposed to be a satellite of Mars Hill and right when everything blew up he had a church planning team ready to plant this church in Spokane and they ended up planting it's still a church it's not Mars Hill Church but wonderful what's happened and I know there's there's been a lot of Redemptive things that have happened as churches spun off from from Mars Hill that were campuses there I know many of the folks listening probably have heard clips of what Mark Driscoll said to listen to the the full context you'd have to listen to what is almost an hour-long sermon he's still giving very long sermons which is his sort of signature I suppose but he's there at the Trinity Church in Scottsdale Arizona and he gave this sermon on Nehemiah on October 23rd and again if you want to hear that whole thing you can it's still posted online last I looked but I'm going to play a four minute clip of what he said and then we'll unpack that together take a listen some years ago we were in a season where massive media firestorm lots of conflict and controversy said okay investigate everything I know I'm not disqualified I know who I am I can't wait to stand before Jesus it's gonna be a great day for me not that I'm perfect but I I know who I am and I know who he is and uh and we were asked to return and I'll share something with you I've never shared I don't know if it's a good idea or not I'll ask Grace she just she did this so okay so um so um I was in one end of the house Grace was in the other God spoke to us both said your release you need to resign immediately and God told me a trap is set he didn't tell Grace that so she came in she's like God just spoke to me I was like God just spoke to me and uh she said I said what did you hear she said well released I said I heard we're released that trap was set so so we walked away didn't defend ourselves took 18 months didn't do social media didn't do public Ministry just wanted to heal up and be with my family and get them into safety in a very dangerous season of our life and so during that time I met with some of my critics and enemies one-on-one or small group people that have been friends people who claim to be Christians some who were pastors some who still are pastors and I I asked her I said I said God told me a trap was set so I asked him I said do you know what that might be and these people that we had known said uh yeah the nuclear option was we were going to accuse you of adultery this was at Panera multiple meetings at Panera you guys discussed accusing me of adultery you know that's not true I've been faithful to my wife my whole life I adore my wife I love my wife and she loves me we've been faithful to each other we've been open our whole marriage about any struggles we have had because we know that every married couple has some hardship to go through and we have never been dishonest but we have never done that we've never done anything remotely like that he said yeah that's why we kept it as the nuclear option I was like to get me why they said to get you out of the pulpit they said because we knew that if we accused you of adultery and enough of us signed the open letter that ultimately there would be such a media Firestorm that you would have to exit Ministry exit preaching God's word for probably a year will a full investigation was done during that time we could take over and lead and be in charge and and then we figured one of two things would happen either you would come back but we would be in charge or you would never come back and you'd be done forever I came home I told Grace it's like oh my gosh multiple people told me that to my face on separate occasions and days I want you to be if I'm going to be your pastor and I love you I promise you this I'll always tell you the truth and I want you to love and honor and respect Christian leaders and pastors don't assume the worst assume the best and don't believe everything you hear and don't contribute to the gossip that just takes lies and gives them life the old preacher Charles hadn't spiritually once said he said a lie can get around the world before the truth can get its shoes on and today every algorithm and every social media platform exists to send bad things about God's people as fast as possible whether it's true or false wow so so much to unpack there and even watching your response as you're listening um it's emotional isn't it yeah it's and every time I hear his voice it's brings back a lot of uh a lot of really really bad memories um so yeah and when he's talking about those men um these were the best men that I've ever known in my life um and for him to say you guys discussed adultery this is exactly the reason why I released in January um all of the notes of all of the investigated meetings from uh September or excuse me from August of 2014 through the time that Mark resigned um I um they're amazing notes um I took out the elders names and I replaced them with numbers because who said what is not important but I did think that someone taking time to read through what these Elders did and how they were praying for Mark and how they wanted Mark ultimately restored they wanted to see him repent they wanted to see him reconciled but they wanted him to be restored and um and that never happened and then for him to say that those men were discussing adultery it's just a flat lie I mean like I have every meeting note and let me just tell you there was none when he talks about a nuclear option that was a word that I used in early 2013 when we were talking about setting up the board of Elders and the nuclear option was basically uh all of these churches being separated in independent churches which actually is what happened these churches did but that was the nuclear option um but and that was around an investigation of one of the three of us that were executive Elders if we were found guilty of formal charges and we were having to be removed from our position that was what that was and then um and when he talks about an investigation would have to be launched there was already an investigation of 25 formal charges that disqualified Mark Driscoll based on arrogance domineering and uh what was the other one quick temperedness um so like like and that's what he still doesn't acknowledge to today he was found disqualified and the people that investigated him and had over 20 or excuse me over 40 different interviews with people that were directly sinned against that's the information that they did they did full investigation and that's why I produced all of those uh notes so that it's don't take my words for it read the people the Elders of the church that investigated Mark Driscoll read their own words read how they wrestled with this horrible thing that they had to do um and to go through and read Mark's response um to being formal charges read how he blows up read all of those things and see for yourself make your own judgment don't allow Mark Driscoll to sit there and say that he can sorry like first anybody to be as arrogant to think that they can stand in front of Jesus I'm sorry like all of us fall short of the glory of God and Jesus is sinful life we all have fallen short So for anybody to me to say I can't wait until the day I stand in front of Jesus and tell him how good I am I mean it's just it's remarkable it's it's shocking to me um so I just those are my first it gets me so upset um when it went around those men like miles Roadie I mean the reason why probably miles was able to reach out to you he he had a long history of military uh career that guy's not scared of anybody um and I'll tell you he's dangster not scared of Mark Driscoll and that's why he he probably responded other of us I know I was terrified of Mark when I lived when I worked there and most of those guys still eight years later are probably terrified of Mark as well and that's one of the reasons why it I'm still nervous to talk to you but I know that I'm not in full-time Ministry and I feel like that I am able to talk with you and share what happened yeah well and Mark has threatened I I've seen it many times at legal action he's even bragged about you know I've seen the notes from the Trinity Church even where he's bragged about having this war chest of millions of dollars available to sue people if he needs to and so that threat of lawsuit from what I hear has been something that's been assistant and is always there in in the background although he hasn't it's been more more threat than actual action up until this point but let's let's go back and I I would like to kind of retrace some things from 2014 one because um some of it I I think up until 2014 and maybe his fall people are a little bit more clear on that but what happened afterwards to me is really a part of this story that hasn't really been told that well um the rise and fall of Mars Hill that podcast which has been so popular and done so well has done a great job of kind of taking it to there but Mark's relaunched he's at a church in in Scottsdale Arizona he's getting back on the speaker circuit he was just shown in a picture with Stephen furtick who was out there on the elevation tour and the two of them you know took a picture together what great buddies they are who knows he's going to be like you know at a verdict conference coming up you know or something not that I have any information on that I'm just saying it's the sort of thing that just these these disqualified pastors uh get up and spin a narrative and then they're back and I think this is an important uh story to tell because it's not just Mark it's a lot of people although Mark probably typifies it in a way you do so let's let's go back to to 2014 and and the events immediately leading up to Mark's resignation so there were there were accusations of plagiarism there was a scheme to pad Book Sales that came out result Source there was uh news that he had trolled uh online discussion forums under the guise of William Wallace II I think was his his phone name and he lambastied male lesbians and female men women who act like women I mean it was just kind of Mark on steroids on those those forums Acts 29 in August 2014 kicks Mark out of the church Planning Network and then on August 22nd 2014 Warren Throckmorton publishes this letter by 21 former Mars Hill pastors accusing Mark of some of the things you said persistent sinful Behavior towards others characterized by this pattern of abusive and intimidating conduct and then we have nine current pastors at time at Mars Hill writing a letter to their fellow Elders saying Mark has a pattern of bullying and calling him to step down and I have to say one thing I am so appreciative to the Mars Hill Elders for doing is actually moving forward on some of these and it's sad to say and up until this point unless a pastor had a moral fall you couldn't get rid of him it was like this this idea that just your character you're such a nasty person and you're such a bullying person you do not exhibit the character of Christ even though those those things are Written In Timothy and Titus and what the qualifications of a pastor are that he shouldn't be quarrelsome he shouldn't have outbursts of anger even though those are there that was rarely called upon to to disqualify a pastor and so um but let me just pause there and ask you since you had a front row seat um you were in this inner circle with Driscoll there weren't the executive Elders were you Dave bruscus and Mark yeah so that I mean the three of you men um did you see these characteristics and qualities in Mark the the domineering the bullying oh um repeatedly um sadly um many times see I uh in my role um all of the central staff reported to me so everybody we had 200 some odd employees in the central staff Resurgence all of those things Marcel books the Marshall Music everything like that reported up through me um and then I reported directly to Mark he was my boss I also sat on the board with Dave and Mark so we were the three that were on the board and we had four board members that were out outside um and anytime that Mark went to speak I was there I uh I lived down the street from Mark I would typically meet him at his house and his uh executive assistant and we would drive to wherever he was preaching I'd be with him the whole time there uh there at this uh wherever we were preaching and then I would come back so I mean you could say during that time period between 2011 and 2014 nobody spent more time with Driscoll than I did Dave and I were the only ones to have one-on-one meetings with Mark during those three-year period of time we we had to isolate him because he was so um harsh on on staff members that we had to literally relocate an office to house Mark and then Dave and I would go there as well um on the days that we met so yeah I saw a lot of that um you know and and to not be uh and and some of the things that so yes there was a lot of accusations that were during and it really started um uh in 13 2013. um but the the the formal charges the 25 formal charges are are listed and I've actually in my notes that I published um pulled some of those items when the investigating Elders um uh literally ask Mark about each one of those charges and many of those you will read he says oh yeah I did that oh yeah I did that he admits to the sin um and um so yes I saw some um and I'll just give you an example to give you um from from that we were at um Ballard um that was one of our our churches our 15 churches locations um the oldest church location um and uh it was eight o'clock so we had we had an eight o'clock service so typically sometimes we would do five to seven Services mark would preach five to seven services on a weekend and we would go to different churches typically uh the eight o'clock service at Ballard was very young a lot of young people would come there was no time limit on the outside of it so typically he could preach for as long as he wanted to and uh one night we did a call to baptism um he uh it was an incredible response to the gospel a lot of people wanted to go and get baptized during the day at Ballard they had run out of towels and shirts because we would provide short shirts and shorts to people so um when I saw the response I was trying to find backstage trying to find towels and things the campus pastor and some of the other people were running Mark when he realized what was going on you know we're playing music people are getting baptized Mark grabbed Somebody by the by the throat against the wall and says and I'll clean this up because there was a lot of cuss words um but um he was mad at the person for not having enough shorts and enough uh shirts and I'm about to rip your head off and excrete down your neck and this is full up against the wall with somebody that was actually a pastor of the church those are the types of activities so when people say why were you scared of Mark like like yeah I mean you would be scared and this is also the person that you saw terminate people like I mean so so I'm just trying to wrap my head around this there's an incredible move that the Holy Spirit people are getting baptized coming to Christ like and in the midst of that that's how Mark behaves I mean this is it's mind-numbing like I mean I just I've been in moods of the Holy Spirit maybe not quite that dramatic but I I just can't I can't fathom that you're so full of the moment of what God's doing and the love of God and the great grace of God and and to behave and I mean it makes you wondered what what does he even yeah that's that's just shocking to me that's shocking to me and so when you say like did you see yeah yeah so lots of that kind of stuff because I was you know one of those people that was super close to Mark and saw him um react to people he had a massive temper um still does I'm sure um that's why one of the charges was um quick temperedness um and abusive language um that was you know um so so anyway to give you that that's a specific example that I witnessed there was many many others but that's kind of an extreme example of what we saw all the time and that's why for a lot of people they don't understand why there was such fear on staff um and and um incredible fear um uh and a culture of fear and so I give you that as an example one of the things that you were talking about um as we look towards the investigation of of 2014 is how did the investigation happen because a lot of churches might have charges or allegations against their pastor but nothing ever happens um and so if you go back to 2011 2011 I had just arrived um Jamie Munson had just left I was uh first the general manager and then I was asked to take Jamie's role as executive Pastor um and result Source was signed during that time period And by October of 2011 I was shocked um that result Source could have been approved by a church board and I'm coming from and result Source again this is the whole this is the company that bought like thousands and thousands of Mark's books to put so that his new book was a real marriage so that that book would get put on the New York Times bestseller list so it's it's really a way to manipulate yourself into being a best totally buying the New York Times bestseller title and using Church funds oh absolutely and uh and so I was shocked at that um coming from the outside in corporate role I'm like there's got to be uh uh Authority and accountability somehow that this doesn't happen so fast forward the spring of 2012 I set up a new board um and I and this is I've talked about this before but I asked mark who would you be accountable to because I know that there's I mean the current board he was not going to be accountable to all those guys worked at the church and all those guys most of them he had led to Christ like there was not going to be any accountability in that group and he said to me someone with a larger church and a bigger platform those were the only people that I said okay and not knowing how big a church John Piper so somebody like John Pottery goes no I would never be accountable to Piper okay and so I literally went down a list um I didn't know many of these people but I went for him and I was thinking okay these guys um or uh and so put those together in a board of accountability okay so those are four outside board members and then the three of us fast forward so that was the spring of 2012. fast forward uh 12 months later I realized that yes we had this outside board but those guys were not participating in a ongoing basis to be able if there was ever any allegations against Mark and there started to be Dave Kraft um first came out with the allegations um in that early part I was like okay we have to put together a group of people that are going to do an investigation of one of the three executive Elders so including me including Dave bruscus and Mark and so I formed what was called the board of Elders and we went together and we put together this group of Elders and they were lead pastors of the different churches Mars Hill churches so they're internal to Mars Hill and they were led by somebody that was not only on the board of Elders but he was also on the board of of accountability with Mark and Dave and I and so so like he had one foot in the the local church he was a volunteer Elder which I thought was very important and he was not on staff so he would not have you know some of those issues and so we formed that board of um elders the spring of 13 and really that's what is the group of men that went together in 14 that did the interviews of 40 people that investigated the 25 formal charges and that found Mark disqualified on those three items several things there's so many things that come to mind actually when you speak most most people their eyes glaze over when it comes to church governance and I get that it's not really that exciting or sexy but it is so super super important when you talk about the the outside Elders the board of uh what was it board of overseas accountability and accountability that's what it was um that reminds me of a lot of these Arc churches right now Association of related churches they have other mega church pastors who are supposedly holding the pastor accountable with this which is a joke because they're not there and also are there sympathies going to be with the celebrity Pastor because they're one and they are a big mega church pastor I mean it's it's it's really a bizarre governance model but it's it's become you know something that's used in a lot of these churches in August of 14 okay so this is literally the month that these guys are uh that the board of Elders is about to start the investigation Mark is on sabbatical okay he had been on sabbatical for two months Acts 29 just cuts us out of being an Acts 29 church I think it was like the 14th of August of 2014. I get a call I was actually on vacation vacation in the same place that Mark was um and I get a call from James McDonald who was a part of the board of advisors and accountability for the whole time since 2012. he called me and said I need to resign I was like you can't resign right now of any other time we need you to be here and help us through this time period and he said and I will quote I can't stay on this board because I don't want my elders to do the same thing to me that they're doing to Mark Driscoll and and that does not surprise me because one James was every bit the bully and every bit as arrogant as Mark in fact I had people tell me who knew both of them that that uh James McDonald was kind of like the older brother to Mark and when the two of them would get together which we know from some of their Antics at The Strange Fire uh conference that um John McArthur had you know them in the parking lot I mean it's just two mega church Pastors in the parking lot passing out you know flyers and books and I mean it's just bizarre so I hate to say it but I was there no oh you were I was in the car with Mark and Dave yeah Matt James at Strange Fire oh wow and that was on a dare we were at uh act like men in Long Beach California which was James McDonald's big thing which was James like McDonald's it had Matt Chandler and I mean it was the Who's Who and it was act like men I mean quite frankly the the spirit of those was to me the spirit of William Wallace II was isn't it I mean it was sort of this I mean promoting almost toxic masculinity as biblical not always I mean it was tempered with protect your your wives and and serve them but also very over the top it seems but go ahead yeah you're so you gotta dare and we were having breakfast we had uh future Elite Mars Hill lead Pastor interns with us big long table James is you know bigger than life holding court with all of these young pastors and uh uh who who and James had a relationship with MacArthur and said you know wouldn't it be funny Mark if we went over and dropped in on Strange Fire and it was like a light bulb and Mark like a dare Big Brother Darren the little brother and he was like and he turned to his executive assistant and said don't we have a couple of boxes of books and he was like yes and he goes I'll go sign books at uh and let's go and literally we got up and headed that way I want to speak for Dave I'll say for myself that was one of the most embarrassing like if I look back on foolishness and sinful behavior that I participate in right there like there's not a better example of some of the foolish sinful behavior that I participated and I have to own that like and and I've tried to own that as much as I can by doing stuff like this and meeting one-on-one with the people that I've offended and sinned against um but I I at the same time need to communicate some of the sinful Behavior and the and the foolish behavior that I did with Driscoll so that people can see what is now happening eight years happened way back then yeah and not that I don't think Strange Fire deserved it being pushed back on but there's a way to do things and showing up in the parking lot is not the way that I would suggest doing that um so let's go to we've talked now about the investigation that that came and and it was led by eight Elders uh interestingly though it they weren't independent Elders in the sense that normally you like to get as many independent Elders as possible who who aren't on the payroll because I mean I've seen it firsthand like I've been threatened when I was at Moody by by a trustee member you know we're going to tell the president about this or we've told the president about this and and so there is a fear of blowing the whistle or of trying to hold accountable because you're going to lose your job but but these men uh bravely you know from everything that I've seen did step up and did do a honest uh investigation and so we've mentioned miles Roadie who was one of those eight I have spoken to him and uh he describes the meeting and the results of what they got and then that meeting and what happened and what their heart was when they delivered uh the results of that so take a listen the last meeting that I remember having was letting the board know what our findings were which were quick tempered arrogant and domineering and then we listed a potential plan for him to receive some counseling and care as well as work with those who would be older than him that he respected who were outside of the church who would serve as a mentor and as a kind of a a coach of sorts through reconciliation and that's what we presented it's much more detailed it was very hope-filled because we took first Timothy 5 18 very seriously that it was persistent in these thin these sins in which we found him to be that he was to be rebuked publicly before the church and then brought into a process of restoration over a course of time which was not determined at that time and then he resigned and made it all moot well let me just ask you was there any desire to get rid of Mark on that board no there wasn't a desire there was a desire to protect the flock and there was a desire to see what the Lord had done in and through Mark and in and through Mars Hill to be done again the Lord to do that and to even tell a better story than in the first 18 years nobody had an ax to grind nobody was saying that he needs to go uh indefinitely Or you know to kick him out but that he needed to be removed so that the process of healing for the church and for his own soul could be allowed to take place and we weren't using the disqualifying word at that time but I think his actions of resigning the way he did proved in my opinion from that point that was disqualified for someone not willing to enter into a process that is obvious for um the health and protection of the church as well as his own soul proved ultimately to be disqualified so according to miles the heart of the elders was restoration there was no plot there was no trap in fact that doesn't seem to make sense for me because what I've seen is everybody understands at a big mega church like this especially with the kind of platform and and even Driscoll used to say I am the brand right and he was the brand and if he leaves everybody understands we're not sure this thing survives without our charismatic leader right I mean was that an understanding of the board I think that um it if you read the notes from these men at the time just kind of like what miles was saying um like the the day before two yeah day before the the formal charges were sat down with Mark and and read and where Mark blew up um one of the elders says I want him to hear it that we love him and that it's for him to see us at not for him not to see us as his enemy I really want this to be expressed to him tomorrow like these guys really loved Mark and they wanted to see him healthy um and in a healthy place and they wanted to see him restored um but unfortunately and and by the way you have to also understand the context of Marcel Mars Hill took church discipline very very seriously and you can't leave a church on church discipline that was the that's what Mars Hill believed that you had to stay in and work through those issues before you were able to leave Marshall church or Marcel Church would not give you like a bill of good health or whatever you want to call it and what do you what do you think of that today oh it's ridiculous I mean everything so it was so controlling and just over the top oh my gosh because that is the exact I participated in that so I mean that's the same thing I heard I mean I know John MacArthur's church when Eileen Gray you know when they excommunicated her for simply wanting you know her husband out of the house who was abusing her children and then she gets disciplined for it she wasn't allowed to leave the church when she asked because she realized this is ridiculous I want to leave she wasn't allowed and and harvest it had similar things I mean it's it's just how church discipline is is used as a club totally but but the double standard I think is what you're getting to absolutely because so so Mark which would never let somebody leave the church in the history of Mars Hill on church discipline ever um it like that he would leave basically on church discipline is shocking and and I honestly think and this is my opinion it's not in the notes I don't believe that anybody really thought that he was going to quit because it was so foreign to the culture especially in the eldership that somebody would leave that's an elder on church discipline like that that would just not even occur and of course it occurred in a historic way um and Mark now says that God he uses the God card God told him to leave and now he had to use that God not only told him to leave but he told him that it was a trap and now we're adding on so by the way this story first started so Mark called me that uh I think it was Saturday night that would have been uh the 13th of October of 2000 and the night before no this was you know this is Saturn yeah what this was no this was a Sunday the 12th October 2014. he called me and said you know I talked to Larry Osborne and he just doesn't feel like that we're gonna able to to get out of this uh and and you know we went on basically he was saying that Larry had told him what had happened um in the conversations with the boo which wasn't supposed to happen and then secondly he told me that you know Board of overseers and advice and that was the first time he used the word trap you know it just feels like a trap but it was not like there's a trap huh um and then fast forward the first time I heard uh Driscoll using that um was the same month in October at Gateway Church I listened to Mark and I'm like there's a trap when where did this start and that was one of the reasons why I released all those notes is because this story continues to evolve for Mark to be the victim and um and and I just want real information out there for real people to read and go okay this is total Make-Believe this concludes part one of my interview with Sutton Turner but in part two you'll hear Robert Morris and Mark Driscoll at the 2014 Gateway conference just six days after Mark abruptly resigned and you'll hear the crafting of a narrative a narrative that's very sympathetic to mark But as Sutton says it's very far from the truth you'll also hear a 2015 interview between Mark and hillsong's Brian Houston and in this one it's quite clear Mark believes he's the victim Gordon field to me that you know a trap has been set there's there's no way to for us to return to leadership and I didn't know what that meant or what was going on at the time and um um I spent he said we're released him we need to resign so you'll also hear more from Miles Roadie and what actually happened in those meetings between Mark and Mars Hill leaders at Panera and you'll hear the Heartbreak both miles and Sutton feel not just for people still being hurt by Mark Driscoll but for Mark himself this is a powerful story and I believe it has so much to teach us about leadership and accountability in the church again thanks so much for listening to the Roy's report a podcast dedicated to reporting the truth and restoring the church I'm Julie Royce and just a reminder that we're able to do this podcast and all our investigative work at the Roy's report because of support from people like you if you appreciate our work here at the Roy's report would you please consider donating to help us continue to do that just go to Julie Royce spelled rois.com donate that's julieroyce.com donate also just a quick reminder to subscribe to the Roy's report on Apple podcast Google podcast Spotify or YouTube that way you'll never miss an episode and while you're at it I'd really appreciate it if you'd help us spread the word about the podcast by leaving a review and then please share the podcast on social media so more people can hear about this great content again thanks so much for joining me today I hope you were blessed and encouraged [Music]

Channel: Julie Roys

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Keywords: Mark Driscoll, Mars Hill Church, Sutton Turner, Miles Rhode, narcissism, celebrity pastor, pastor scandal, church governance

Id: 6trjiHLh-0c

Length: 45min 54sec (2754 seconds)

Published: Tue Nov 01 2022