Peter Hitchens - The EU is the Continuation of Germany By Other Means

so tonight we're going to continue our discussion of the the EU referendum debate well actually the way our speaker has presented his title and because we agreed at some time ago it doesn't actually refer to that rent referendum but it may well I'm sure creeped into the conversation we are going to have a different format tonight ah he assures me that as a journalist he doesn't he doesn't do long 45 minutes lectures like academic so what he has to say may well be sort of condensed into a shorter period of time in which case what we'll do is we'll take we'll have a short question and answer session until 8:15 have a usual break and then come back for more Q&A so the microphones are at the ready and the the forms in which you can submit written questions will be available in the first half as well as the second well does our speaker need any introduction I mean you may not read the mail on Sunday where he is a journalist of course he's a well-known author too I think we said on the slides that he's a polemicist and not quite sure what a polemicist is I think he agrees I think it means someone who likes a good argument but he's he's always on question time which means he's good box office I don't know if it means is in danger of becoming a national treasure I suspect that's an idea that would appalled him but any wait while we may not always agree what he says he always challenges us when we're guilty of woolly thinking or when we slip into conventional wisdom that may not have the time be appropriate you have seen all the books that he's written the most recent one the abolition of Liberty that came out this year there was a sort of recommend recommendation I noticed when I looked it up and someone endorsed this book saying it's fair to say that Peter Hitchens remains one of the most misrepresented figures in the British media Hitchens is in reality one of the most thought-provoking and intelligent commentators on life in contemporary Britain I did check and it wasn't his mother who wrote that it seems to have been another journalist it was another it was other journalist Neil Clark who writes in The Spectator in The Guardian and is regarded as sort of a left-wing and anti-war writer so he's not you would say necessarily in the in the same camp as Peter Hitchens so we can take that as a true admiration but now you have the chance to form your own view on what Neil Clark said so please let's hear from Peter Hitchens thank you so much that kind introduction I hope we won't regret any of it later on the delay by the way I've been privatised was sponsored by Network Rail and Virgin Trains and looking out over you are a particularly terrifying audience I see so much gray hair that I know you've all been properly educated so I won't be able to slip anything behind you the other high want to mention is you will of course know that today's international toilet day it really is and I was a bit worried when I discovered this that I've been deliberately invited on such a date as a sort of slight but I'm assured it isn't so I will try and work some mention of the international concern about toilets into my speech at some point but I'm not quite sure how yet to begin the title of this talk is that the European Union is a continuation of Germany by other means something which seems to me to be so obvious that it barely needs saying but on the other hand which many people find shocking and the reason why I think a lot of people in Britain find it shocking is because in my belief our attitude towards both of the great European Wars of the 20th century is wholly and utterly wrong out of focus and skewed we see it through the prism of the song of the Versailles Treaty of our Alamein of d-day of the Battle of Britain in fact the real conflict was being fought all the time far away and the real axis of war in Europe has been for all that period and continues to be now Stalingrad Ukraine brest-litovsk Kiev and Sevastopol and extraordinarily when that conflict broke out again very recently we found ourselves standing on the on the edge of it and in my view taking very vigorously at least in terms of the government and the media and utterly wrong side and aside we wouldn't have taken if we understood what was going on think about it this way in 1914 we entered a war in my view extremely foolishly I was an ally of the Russian autocracy the Czarist regime a far far more reprehensible and horrible regime in fact than the one which exists there now in many many ways and also a vast land empire stretching over huge areas of Europe which it's it's lost in 1941 we were forced into alliance with a Russian murderous dictatorship under Joseph Stalin without whose aid we would not have survived these are two essential facts in life which we seldom stare in the face what was it that brought this about why were we allied with such a country in those two circumstances what really was it that brought us into that war what was that war truly about in fact although terrible things happened on the psalm and a deeper and at Passchendaele and the poems of Wilfred Owen remain a beautiful and moving account of the horrors of that war and although we rightfully continue to celebrate our standing alone in 1940 and the Battle of Britain and our main and d-day and the rest of it as great acts of courage resolution and national effort they were not the central part of the war the central part of the war was a German ambition a German ambition to move eastward particularly into the area of Ukraine and that ambition was pursued right up to the Treaty of brest-litovsk in 1917 which very very few British people are fully aware of and which foreshadowed in so many ways things which were to happen later and which created for the first time in modern history a country called Ukraine that treaty was the almost Carthaginian peace which Germany forced upon Russia after after the collapse of Russia and the collapse of Russia was was obtained by Germany in a most astonishing fashion and people against don't fully realize this they've heard of the sealed train and they've heard of Lenin but they don't really understand just how very much German secret agents under the instructions of general ludendorf paid Lenin and the Bolsheviks very large sums in gold in a classic for an organized put in a major country to overthrow what had by then become for the first time in history the Russian democracy to overthrow the Russian democracy drive Russia out of the war and thereby impose this Carthaginian peace on Russia and effectively bring the war to an end if only they could knock us out in the West which they very very nearly did soon afterwards this was the center of the war and it was only because they failed again through the immense resolution and courage of largely of British soldiers during this the great spring offensive in 1918 it was only because they failed very narrowly to do that that the map of Europe was not then once and for all drawn in favor of Germany Germany was by 1914 an immensely powerful industrial military naval diplomatic force one which nobody in Europe could really withstand alone or probably even together under normal circumstances it very very nearly succeeded in 1915 1917 after brest-litovsk in imposing its will on Europe in doing what it really wanted to do all along which was to destroy the Russian Empire and to take a large part of its territory so large that it could never again recover this was all repeated in quite considerable detail between 1940 and 1943 and again by enormous good fortune really for the world the German effort to destroy Russia and the German effort to dominate Europe forever failed and it failed largely at Stalingrad and the debt which we owe whatever we think of style in the debt which we owe to the Russian people for the battle which they put up to Stalingrad remains unpayable they were the ones who made sure that Germany under Hitler did not in the end dominate Europe that was the war but do you think that once it was over the enormous economic political social and theoretical forces which had and it went away because I don't believe in any way that they did you could still read it still it's obtainable under under a very obscure imprint a fascinating book called Mitteleuropa which was written in the middle of the first world war speculating on the possibility of the entire German People's Germany and austria-hungary uniting together and forming a vast land empire in the center of Europe it was a German dream which obviously after the Second World War was no longer attainable by the means of military conquest but was it attainable by some other means interestingly we need to go back before Hitler this is not this is not something which we attributed to Hitler to was a real understanding of what was what was going on in this and I recommend that all of you to read what I regard as the best history book published in the past ten years on this whole era the deluge by annum twos which describes in some detail the process what Germany discovered during its conquest of the the former Russian Empire in 1917 was that it could create nations which were not nations Richard font Kumaon then the German Foreign Secretary an English speaker a clever and witty man devised the concept of limited sovereignty which he first of all tried out in the creation of a fake kingdom of Poland to try and detach Poland from Russian domination and which he then proceeded to continue in setting up the puppet state of Ukraine which was only destroyed as a result of Germany's defeat in the West in 1918 which would otherwise probably still exist these foreshadowed in an extraordinary fashion the remarkable events which began in February 2014 in Kiev which still seem to me and there there is a link by the way to the subject which which bill first mentioned at the beginning of this meeting there is a link to that in this this this this was revived in the extraordinary events in February 2014 in Kiev now these events are often misrepresented and misunderstood in the West I was astonished being familiar with that part of the world I was utterly astonished by the way which my journalistic colleagues covered it and the way in which many politicians actually addressed it I thought it was completely an acidly mistake and I'm someone who has on several occasions beings of that part of the world knows it reasonably well and live for two and a half years in Moscow when partly when it was the Soviet Union partly when the Soviet Union was collapsing and I cannot leave the nonsense which was taught what took place in February 2014 in Kiev was a naked foot it was a push which took place under considerable foreign pressure and with considerable foreign support what was happening was this Ukraine as a result of the collapse of the Soviet Union and I'm here to give you some figures of Ukraine's result of the collapse and Senate Union had once again become the most significant piece of real estate in the whole of Europe after the collapse of the Warsaw Pact and of the Soviet Union Moscow lost control direct control over roughly one hundred and eighty million people and roughly 700,000 square miles of European territory I'm not even counting in this it's loss of control over areas such as Kazakhstan in the east it's a separate issue the European Union and what I regard as the European Union's military wing there is NATO in the same period gained direct control over more than 120 million of those people and 400,000 of those square miles the reason for the difference between the figures the reason why the European Union NATO had not gained as much as this as the Soviet Union or Moscow had lost is fundamentally Ukraine the biggest single territory remaining neutral and non-aligned in the whole of Europe there was this huge struggle a diplomatic struggle lasting several years over the future of Ukraine in which the European Union offered very large financial blandishments to Ukraine to end its non-alignment and to enter the European Union NATO camp as I said they were very large sums of money enrolled because the agreement the association agreement which was proposed was not simply an economic agreement as european union agreements very seldom are so the economic it contained very considerable political and military clauses and would have had it been agreed which it eventually was but would have had it been agreed have moved Ukraine firmly into the Western rather than the neutral camp Russia responded first of all I'm making plain that it's strongly disapproved of this and secondly by offering its own actually much more generous package of financial help to Ukraine to try and stove this off when the then president of Ukraine Haven over this and eventually decided that he would go with the Russian package he was overthrown by a mob butch in which quite a large number of Ukrainian policemen were shot dead there's no question the violence in which he was ultimately chased from office by a large and uncontrollable mob the Constitution of Ukraine was not followed in his removal or impeachment the necessary votes in the Ukrainian in the Ukrainian Parliament were not available and they were not they were not taken the thing was entirely unconstitutional and lawless it was in all essential terms that put the the mob which which obtained that puts had been egged on by foreign politicians from Senator John McCain to a former German Foreign Minister Guido vest together and the famous Victoria Nuland a Assistant Secretary of State from Washington all of whom plunged into the crowds which were interned on overthrowing the Yanukovych government this extraordinary intervention one which imagined if during the Scottish referendum German or French or indeed Russian politicians had turned up in Enver in Glasgow urging the Scottish people to vote to leave the United Kingdom imagine the outrage that you would feel about this and the extraordinary feeling of the health of injustice and wrong but this kind of thing was deemed to be entirely acceptable we're told and quite correctly that Russia has sent it to the area its own secret policemen spies military intelligence and there's no doubt whatever that Russia has done this and has intervened in many ways but how many of you know that very shortly after these events John Brennan the head of the CIA was in person in person present in Kiev if you do know you'll be lucky because most of the Western media didn't cover it but it is a fact and one of the reasons it wasn't covered very much is because the head of the CIA very seldom travels abroad and when he does he doesn't let it be known where he is and it was an immensely strong sign of how deep the Western involvement was in that era subsequent events the war which has since broken out in in the in the east of Ukraine were it seems to me entirely inevitable the separate issue of the Crimea is very interesting because it's a it's often it's often portrayed simply as a wholly unfair and wrongful seizure of territory by Russia which in terms of pure international law is the case but you might like to know because you'll never have read it anywhere except in my column and on my blog that in 1992 the people of Crimea sought to have a referendum in which they wished separate from Ukraine and if they had done so they would have returned to Russia because they are by and large Russians it is a majority Russian territory and they regard themselves as Russians and they were threatened with violence by the government of Ukraine and prevented from holding that referendum so it goes both ways and if you think that it's so tremendously immoral but to take over territory under those circumstances that's the country which does it should be an international pariah then cast your mind back as most of you will be able to do that's in 1974 and the seizure of Northern Cyprus by Turkey turkey is still there so his troops are still present the reason for their behavior was actually quite similar to Russia's behavior in Crimea Turkey is a NATO member turkey is still in the comity of Nations there is no boycott of Turkey there are no sanctions against Turkey there is no action taken against Turkey whatsoever but there is fundamentally no difference between the two actions so if you really think that this is that this is the action this is the action of a pariah state which needs to be driven from the international community then you have some further thinking to do I make these points because none of them were being made by the supposedly serious media of this country during during this period I also certain would point out the George Friedman the very experienced and renowned analyst of intelligence matters in the United States and head of struck for the intelligence analyst gave an interview to the Rush newspaper Kommersant in which he said yes indeed this was quite clearly a blatant coup and anybody who says it wasn't is it is misrepresenting events I will spare you the details the vast sums of money spent by the European Union on civil society organizations in Ukraine which is another way of saying on propaganda and buying influence on Ukraine in the years before this happened this is a huge struggle whether you approve it or not whether you think that it is something which we should do or not it is an enormous battle fought by a large by money and intrigue rather than by force but a huge battle for a vital territory which are speaking F Brzezinski wrote in his in his son in his 1997 book the global chessboard I think it's called a got that's slightly wrong Ukraine is so important that if Russia is deprived a bit of control over it Russia ceases to be a major power but if Russia controls it Russia is a major power it is an enormous the important piece on the global chessboard and everybody who knows anything about strategy understands that and why was the European Union doing this what is the European Union's relationship to German Imperial policy of 1917 or come to that in 1942 well I think it's perfectly obvious I think that the the European Union was when it was set up a recognition a very reasonable recognition of the fact that Germany was bound to be by size by its shape by its population by its immense economic power was bound to dominate Europe whatever happened somehow or other its conflict particularly with France had to be institutionalized into something peaceful some of you may have read a wonderful book by Arthur Koestler he's out of fashion now because of for various reasons but but it's it's a fascinating book set just before the Second World War called the skull of the earth describing his escape from the Nazis amongst other things in 1940 but it begins with an essay on the problem of France and Germany had these two countries striving for dominance of Europe the country of bread and wine and the country of Ireland steel are trying constantly to fight for dominance and of course France in 1940 lost that dominance forever but Germany was prepared in the formation of the European Union to make an arrangement with France France would have France would have nuclear weapons France would have a seat on the United Nations Security Council France would have loved wha France would continue to have the Francophonie the the French car wealth France would continue to be able to act in all respects much as we do as if it were a world power when it really wasn't Germany would have no army to speak of Germany would have no military power it would offer no no attempt to to dominate its neighbors by open diplomacy but it would have the real power and it would control the European Union an arrangement finalized in the little-known at least say treaty which I think was signed in 1962 in the Elysees palace between the two countries which is the center of the whole European Union arrangement and behind all this stands the United States United States which since the age since the days of Woodrow Wilson and Versailles has been determined to ensure that no power dominates Europe a job which used to be asked with which we were no longer capable capable of doing or competent to do and was therefore extremely interested in the between the two wars in trying to in trying to control Europe and to prevent dominance but failed to do so but after the Second World War was determined it would not fail as it had done in 1939 so for instance it is actually the case that the Euro documents exist right down to bus tickets they were found in a cache of Georgetown University by a tremendous historical research accident a few years documents exist showing that the Central Intelligence Agency actually put together the original European movement and were very very anxious to ensure that the European Union should be created and that Europe should be one political entity by and large under American influence which is why you find Victoria Nuland and why you find certain John McCain in the Maidan in Kiev in February 2014 urging on a European Union expansion which is also of course in May so and an American expansion this is the nature of power in the middle of this whereas Britain on the margins of it probably not very and then there is another another part of this which you need to understand one of the reasons why happened when it did one of the reasons why Ukraine is so important is because it is the key not just to the Caucasus and indeed to large parts of Russia but it also it is the gateway which would through which Europe reaches the Middle East and it was always extremely important from that point of view when the United States France Britain and some Gulf countries including Saudi Arabia began their efforts to destabilize the Syrian government of Bashar al-assad in 2011 Russia was the principal opponent of that strategy now we could go on for a long time about the nature and reasons for the destabilization of Syria it's perfectly obvious that the ostensible reason for it that we don't like undemocratic dictatorships isn't true or why would we host in London the appalling dictator of China followed soon afterwards by the butcher of Cairo general Field Marshal Sisi of Egypt we are not in the slightest bit worried about about democracy or tourney and it's it simply doesn't wash but whatever the reason an immense diplomatic effort was being made destabilize Syria which Russia frustrated by preventing the United States and Britain and France from committing their forces to the side of the rebels against Bashar al-assad there is a sense in which and again George Friedman dwells upon us in his fascinating Commerce at interview there is a sense in which this wasn't exactly American revenge for what Russia did in Syria but it was certainly an American response for what Russia did in Syria United States knew perfectly well that if it's moves Ukraine away from Russian influence indeed away from neutrality towards Western influence it would cut Moscow where it really hurt so we have a very complicated war both in Europe and in the Middle East all to do with the creation of a new power the European Union fundamentally German fun design can contain Germany in peace and prosperity at reasonable a reasonable objective and we have this linked very much with the crisis in the Middle East and here we have the continuation of the struggle which in many ways began nineteen 1914 but of course in 1870 when when the the franco-prussian war created modern Germany and brought about the Europe with which we now have to live as long as we fail to recognize this as long as we fail to understand that that is the nature of Europe that any continental arrangement of power is going to be in is bound to be donated by Germany and a position which we take is going to have to be based on a recognition understanding that as long as we don't understand that then our diplomacy in Europe our attitude towards the European Union is simply going to be vacuous it's going to be of none effect it's it's going to have unintended results it's not going to have the intended results and yet curiously enough the person who saw this most clearly and earliest of all was Lord Palmerston supposedly the Matt the man revered by so many people as the great ginger the man who always stood up for the British Empire who was always ready to go to war you may have heard of the celestia coastline question you may have heard that Palmerston said of it but there were only three people who understood it and one of them went mad one was dead and one was him and he had forgotten but the crucial thing about this receipe host dying question was that it was again about German expansion into into what is now Denmark or in fact what was then Denmark and became Germany and Britain had obligations strong treaty obligations to intervene on the side of Denmark on this in this matter and they were actually stronger by a long way than the treaty obligations which we had to Belgium in 1914 which led us into that disastrous war and noticing that Germany was an immensely strong and successful land power and the Britain wasn't and that we had no way of influencing offense rather than actually fulfill our treaty obligations of Denmark Lord Palmerston ran away and said he would do nothing about it faced a vote of censure in the House of Commons as a result of doing it which he escaped I think by two votes and I think he was very sensible because he recognized what we didn't recognize in 1948 what we haven't recognized since what we don't recognize now Europe has to be donated by Germany the United States is anxious in these modern times that Europe is dominated by Germany the true special relationship in Europe is not between the United States and Britain which is a fantasy but between the United States and Germany and that we if we have to if we have to make our way in the world either have to accept that the European Union if we continue to belong to it is a German creation and we will be part of the German Empire under Richard von killman's concept of limited sovereignty or we can leave it all together and say that we wish to be independent but there are no two ways about it if you're in it you're governed by William Hague's great slogan in Europe but not run by Europe is as vacuous as saying in Wormwood Scrubs but not governed by one with Scrubs life isn't like that this is an immensely important very significant very powerful quite aggressive project which has already caused two Wars the first in Yugoslavia and the second in Ukraine in the course of its aggression we might want to be part of it we might not want to be but before we decide which we wish to be I think we should work out what it is and I think it's absolutely true to say as I began I shall finish that the European Union is the extension of Germany by other means you right in the center downstairs it's about six rows back the gentleman with the beard and I'll take the next question upstairs thank you two very quick questions based on what you've just been saying to us Peter first of all as far as Ukraine is concerned where the wishes of the people of Western Ukraine to look westwards rather than towards Russia misrepresented and secondly in relation to Georgia which of course doesn't any have anything right the significance that Ukraine does the actions of Russia in moving in and depriving Georgia of part of their territory was that justified in the same sort of way the Western Ukraine it's a very interesting question because of course it was actually part of Poland until 1940 and it was this was one of the reasons for the operation so that the Ukrainian nationalists now a hero in in western Ukraine but not in not in other parts of Ukraine certainly not in Russia Stepan Bandera it's very different from the West from from the east of Ukraine in many ways it's the place where Ukrainian speaking is most concentrated it is it is in some ways wholly different than the nationalism there is very fervent and it's part of the difficulty of of trying to construct Ukraine and there's a very fine book by Richard sacra s akw a cold front on Ukraine which discusses the problems in Ukraine when it became independent in trying to create a structure which would accommodate both the people of l'viv as they call it and the people of Donetsk in the Far East were much more Russian oriented in fact Ukraine by going for a very unitary state and one which was very fierce about being a cranium imposing the Ukrainian language making people with Russian names changed them if you were called addameer you would suddenly find you were issued with an identity card calling you Velata mia that's it may seem small but imagine if government changed your name for you it irritated a lot of people this cutting you impose unity and the the extraordinary refusal of the Ukraine to use as a major official language the one language which everybody in the country spoke namely Russian so it the it is it has been difficult balance I think the government of Ukraine has managed it extremely badly and they managed also their treatment of of Crimea extremely badly and threats made by prominent Europe Ukrainian politicians too to end the agreement under which Russia could base its fleet and Sevastopol probably helped to precipitate this problem Georgia at the report on the war which was conducted by a neutral party completely that that Mikhail Saakashvili the Georgian President had started it and I I believe that that is true and that most people who understand the situation properly accept that Saakashvili was hoping to drag the United States into his conflict but he failed and as a result he caused a great deal of bloodshed and difficulty in his own country it is extremely complicated what goes on enjoy I've been to these strange borders between South and North Ossetia and Abkhazia and it is it was designed by Stalin who knew more about Georgia the merciless cause he was Georgian to be very difficult to break away from the Soviet Union contains these national minorities who don't want to be run by Georgia and who therefore are happy to be protected by Russia they're always parallels it's it's it's crude but it's worth thinking about between these nationalities and say the northern island Protestants and it is more complicated in looks I think sukkah speedy was very rash and aggressive and created a war where none was needed oddly enough Sacco goes into this in his book Russia's relations with many of its neighbors from norway's who Armenia to name a couple on border questions are extremely cordial and that they don't have many difficulties the difficulties arise when people try and manipulate their neighbors from outside for other purposes right we can Ivan we take one more question one more question that's upstairs on the left right the front rail upstairs Peter your interesting thesis on a post-war Germany has wholly overlooked the simple fact that in 1945 two 1991-92 Germany was divided into two that the Germany that you said helped to create the European Union it was not present-day Germany it was then western Germany under Konrad Adenauer we had for many years the so-called bomb Paris axis I find your thesis in that context when Europe and it was threatened by the Soviet Union when the Red Army was in Eastern Europe in hundreds of thousands in eastern Germany and NATO was set up as a counterweight towards a possible invasion of Western Europe but at the Soviet Union your thesis to me is wholly untenable and whatever may be happening these days historically sir you have been unjust you have been incorrect and therefore I cannot believe a word otherwise that you say ah oh oh right I got another polemicist I don't I couldn't attempt to be encyclopedic on salat or I'd have been here all night I'm very familiar with the division of Germany I travel the Lord in divided Germany I'm very familiar with the group of Soviet forces in Germany and its diplomatic effect on Europe and I'm very familiar with NATO when it was a proper alliance against genuine threat the fact remains that I think there is a strong continuity between the the the federal Germany of Adenauer and the Germany now not least because when the the Soviet Union the Warsaw Pact collapsed there was no attempt at any kind of merger on equal terms between the the Federal Republic and the the GDR was was taken over totally locked staffing barreled by the but by Helmut Kohl in what would must have been one of the most economically incompetent episodes in human history I have to say but it was done and that's what it was the it's true that the existence of the of the Cold War postponed the dominance of the the huge dominance of Germany over the European Union particularly over over Eastern Europe which has since followed and of course it prevented episodes like that in Ukraine but the fact remains that the the bond Paris access was still at the heart of it was still very much under American tutelage still have the same ultimate purpose and in the end we have what we have I don't think there's any point at which there's no continuity about the European Union it's just got a lot bigger and a lot more powerful since the collapse of the of the Soviet Union the Warsaw Pact which is why Margaret Thatcher who are understood and indeed Francois Mitterrand when the wall collapsed actually sought quite hard until they realized it was impossible to prevent reunification because they could see that it would it will lead this way but it was adding to something which had already happen so I reject your claim that it's ignorant and untenable I just I just think it's it's a complication but it doesn't also the fact that the tendency was in that direction and as soon as Germany was freed by the collapse of the Soviet Union a to to regain its its former very powerful standing in Eastern Europe it took it and I have to say that the activities in hands tea tree can shut and the auspice ich conducted by him and before him by very brad on the subject well all design in that direction germany yearned to be back in the to be back in its position in the eastern center of Europe and the moment it was over it was of course German influence which compelled the recognition of Croatia and the resulting horrors in Yugoslavia a written 2 written questions for you Peter once from John Lee and harking back to your discussion of the Ukraine and you may have part answer this but did the anti Russian speaker trick of the Kiev leadership and the selection of a cabinet by acclamation how far was that you're like the trigger for the present violence conflict troubles I mean you said it was external powers but to what extent was was that internal language factor I think would be energy any internal problems of some time and the Ukrainians very divided country it's so way less divided now because a large part of eastern Ukraine is semi-detached and therefore it's the division is less equal but it just is politically divided actually interesting thing is how little advantage Russia took of that during all the long period of independence after 1991 there was I think a pretty genuine understanding in Moscow after 1991 that the countries which had left the former so again were independent and should be left alone so I don't know I think that internal businesses businesses within Ukraine would probably have gone on much as they had been aside it I paid a visit to Sevastopol and various parts of the eastern Ukraine a little while before this happened but sort of predicted there was trouble coming there I no idea how bad it was going to be but I thought it would be internal though ludicrous things that for instance people in Sevastopol who were largely russian-speaking were told that if they went to the cinema they'd have to watch films in Ukraine which is a bit like you having to watch films in Welsh and they the these ridiculous things being imposed if people didn't like and it was there that I met people who said that they their identity cards had been altered so their names been changed and these resentments were going but I think it was just a carried on if it hadn't if there hadn't been the external stimulus if there hadn't been the attempt to shift Ukraine from a neutral an online position to a a Western EU aligned NATO line they're not member of either of those things it's not capable of being member about there since it doesn't have the military power of the economic standing to do either work for a long time but if they hadn't been FLE outside intervention of the of the EU and of the United States I think they would just have carried on squabbling perhaps sometimes quite violently would but internally and continuing with a medicine and I because things were so tightly about it's what's happened now is quite possibly that Russia is lost permanently much influence in Ukraine but Ukraine may well have lost its East at the same time and neither side is really going wanted except the Russia has definitely got back Ukraine and the the crucial issue of Sevastopol which was really a matter of total vital unship scible importance for Moscow has been resolved because it's quite clear Crimea is get to stay Russian from now on unless something makes a worry that our Gulf says in a minute but since you've been talking about boundary issues some of the time let's take John Mottram zkk uestion bit obscure but how does Russia still justify retaining Kaliningrad Kearney's konigsberg that's on the Baltic Baltic is enough oh I don't think there's any for a very long time I this is one of the fascinating points of history that I often raised in the Orient about Israel that's the there is a movement in Germany which campaigns for justice for those expelled from what are called the lost land and some of its members dream perhaps about obtaining getting back that the land that was lost under the Potsdam agreement and from which they were expelled but I don't think there's any serious political current in Germany which wants to do so and I think it would be too because Kaliningrad is such an important naval base it's unlikely the other thing you have to remember is that in Russia the room in strong feeling of moral justification for these conquests that the seizure of coningsburgh units conversion into Kaliningrad I was a message to Germany this that its behavior was not to be tolerated and was indeed being punished they were terrible scenes when the Russian army the Soviet Army as it then was arrived in East Prussia in the towards the end of the war awful pillage and murder took place this is a count of one occasion where on one of the ruined houses had been scrawled in Russian look at you you have beautiful houses wealthy farms canned food electricity why did you come to our country and ruin it there was this total bafflement that these people had come and risked everything to come and destroy Russia they couldn't understand it and they were there there was a genuine fury in the Russian response and a huge moral feeling after Stalingrad and Leningrad and the the awful scorched earth of the the their mast and the SS in in Russian territory that they were justified in holding that Turkey and I've have to say that having lived for a couple of years in Moscow had seen the old Red Army veterans dancing the lamb burger in Gorky Park on on the on Victory Day I have a certain sympathy with this they reminded me a quite a lot of British servicemen remembering d-day I didn't I didn't really I don't really feel that I'm totally wrong with it myself they can have it's for like I said what I think will eventually happen with all these areas and this includes the old Sudetenland and the parts of Poland which were formerly German is that as the European Union consolidates if it succeeds in doing so by no means guaranteed now but if it does that's economically Joanie will move back into the areas where it used to be the old autobahn between Cannonsburg and Berlin will reopen German investment in what used to be Konigsberg will revive but for the moment what used to be goring Strasse will continue to be lit so Gagarin err which is what it is the next question is going to be from upstairs Peter will write up right at the back on the right-hand side thank you Peter for this evenings talk it's broadened my history of the of Europe and increased the interest even further in how it might develop but particular one perhaps our on a simple question but may not have a simple answer does Angela want us in or out ah yes well a few people are asking oh I think I think they would definitely prefer us to be in I think the German establishment would prefer us to be in because politically it would be it's the old it's the old J Edgar Hoover and Lyndon Johnson right and isn't it better to have him how shall I say inside the tent spitting out than outside will you know what I mean but but on the other hand and this I got from David good heart who was the editor of Prospect magazine a very lofty pro-european organ which and you'd also be the correspondent in Bonn that he heard senior German politicians in born which was during the Capitol referring to the British as the alphadon funder in Seoul the Apes from the island contemptuously and there's a sort of exasperation in Germany with our refusal to be part of the project and also if we hold it up too much I think maybe that sorry to see us go if it really came to it they could cope it's not central we were never central to their project we imagined that we were there's always rubbish about two world wars in one World Cup we think we're central to their life actually one of the fascinating things about Hitler is that he never really cared about us and the Kaiser when tasked but had made a number of rude jokes about British military capability but one of the ones he made in 1914 when it was pointed out that Britain might join in on the side of France and Russia it said dreadnoughts he said dreadknots have no wheels and which is very good point because they do they don't and it took us a very long time to assemble an army big enough to have any influence on the outcome of the 1914 war they never really saw so central they were annoyed that we that we came into 1914 on the side of France thereby depriving them they thought of a quick victory and they were baffled by our engagement in 1939 as in some ways sir my so I think they would be and now they prefer us here but if it really came to it if we really made a big enough nuisance of ourselves they'd say who cares we'll manage without you thank you very much the next question is downstairs it's on the front row far right I'm sure you're quite right to highlight the interests of the Germans eastward which has been going on for a long time yet post 1945 the Americans have put so much cash into western Germany other Germans not just being used as a proxy for American foreign policy towards the Russians yes I hoped I'd conveyed some of that that the the whole project is fundamentally of a revival of the of the Wilsonian idea of creating a a peaceful stable Europe which can trade with America but which has no power on its surface that can challenge America globally so yes but that doesn't mean that Germany has no independence of action within that arrangement and I think it does I actually what Friedman says again is that what America Prodi was always feared more than anything else is a German Russian or across more the this has always been very allowing to Europe both at Rapallo in the 1920s and of course in Moscow and the most awful impact when Germany and Russia get together the world trembles it doesn't tend to be good news for anybody except possibly for them and not even then yes but I think that Germany has a lot of Independence of action within the American project for for Europe but I think if Germany started actually being more friendly towards Russia and actually coming to a permanent arrangement the Russia perhaps encouraging a true association Russia in the European Union but here's the thing so digression but it's important it's a very simple question here why this the European Union stopped at the Russian border why is it it's very simple it's obvious as soon as you look at it Russia is far too big to enter the European Union without without ending German dominance and providing a rival to Germany so great that the whole whole organization would be completely altered it's not even contemplated it's not that's why it's not really a European Union it's something else entirely and to call it the European Union is false but then no one ever mentions this because it's it's understood by everybody that Russia couldn't possibly join the European Union in its current state and if it ever did it would be so transformed that it would become apart from anything else a much more important world power diplomatically and militarily than it is now and would and would greatly alarm the United States and probably China as well if it would create it down the middle east so I don't think will happen but I Joan Lee has freed an election within quite wide bands but it or upsets America I think that Germany might find that John McCain is on the streets of Berlin urging people armed against the government the next question will be upstairs on the right hand side half way back can you all hear me by the way I'm not not bleeding too much only my question relates a little bit to the previous question from upstairs at the moment German is having a huge influx of immigrants I believe up to 18,000 a day arriving in Munich how is this going to affect angular Merkel's position and the position of Germany sort of in the near future well I can we just combine that with another question do you mind um well okay unfulfilled only that this is sort of Blair I thing where you end up not answering either question might go further that's why that's why the honest account will developed it I mean we will never answer them also invited one by one into help I'm very simple gopher it helps me come to concentrate I don't know I'm not I'm not really an expert on current German politics I haven't been there for a while the the rumor is that angular Merkel is on the way out that she blundered so badly over that that her own party will sooner or later stab her in the in the back or possibly in the front over it Germany on the other hand does have a this problem with a it's the only country I've ever been to in the world where the contraceptive machines are so fantastically honest they say on them anti baby which I think the view of much of the German little class there weren't any babies and so as a result they have they have a very severe labor shortage which they aim to overcome through immigration and they've sort of successfully integrated the Turkish guest workers and they think they can do it again so from that point of view can see what she was thinking of but it just got out of control she I've never understood why people think she's so wonderful I'd never thought she was that particularly particularly bright or cunning and I think this episode demonstrated that she really didn't understand the nature of the vast movement of population which is currently taking place from Middle Eastern Africa into Europe the biggest since the huge influx of Hispanics into America about ten years ago enormous world-changing event which she thought was just a bit of immigration I think she misjudged it I think she'll probably pay for it I doubt she'll be there in five years time before we take the next question from the floor can I just take I'll take the risk of reading out to you can we can do that but they are about sort of German influence on the UK okay I'm taking so if your analysis is correct is the German influence benign or maligne from a UK perspective that's from James and the other one is slightly different from Damien Hazelwood can this domination by Germany be stopped or should it be stopped I know is it you know is it a reasonable thing to have around again from a British perspective are you happy with yes or no I think that they can fight quite well it's not a benign normal line it's the thing is that it's dominated by the interests of Germany quite reasonably journey pursues their interests as nations should I'm all in favor of that I think that we should do the same and I believe that it's the I think again promise them and nations don't have permanent friends they have eternal interests they should pursue them and defend them I think the French are also very good at this you just do what and the Russians increasingly under under mr. Putin of various this is in our interest we will do it and they do it and it's to call it malign or benign is like trying to give a character to a force of nature say is gravity benign on the life Germany is huge it will dominate Europe whatever you do unless you have some nasty savage act like the morgenthau plan which would it be a war crime and and resulted in starving he's known as a German people to death unless you do something like that Germany will inevitably dominate Europe that's that's what will happen the question then is if you wish to be within this dominate Europe or whether as in fact our history our history as a serious an important country really began with Henry the eighth's break from Rome and in England's break from Europe in general and we've been at our most successful and our most free and our most prosperous during that period and since it began to end less so time I get the strong impression and this is one of the fears when the European Coal and Steel community was set up that in the nature of the European Union its centralization of its of its industry and economy has meant that countries on the fringe find it harder and harder to maintain particularly an industrial productive economy most of ours is vanished around here you know that better than most and I think that is to a great extent of products of the of our integrations of the European Union where we're not either expected or required as who continue to be a major industrial nation and we have indeed ceased to be if we became independent we might be able to reconstruct that we certainly own the programs your questions has been asked by Lord Starr to swim them everything I think we had in the most recent year an 89 billion pound deficit in trade with European Union which can't be a healthier arrangement to have with the supposed partner so not in a lion or benign but as long as it's there and as long as we allow it to make our laws and to make our terms of trade I think we'll probably suffer because they're not being made in our interest they're being made in Germany's interest we're going to take the next question on the front row right in front of you Peter and then we'll go upstairs Peter remaining with the present-day who should so-called Islamic state feared the most the West the Russians or anonymous so the Russians or the West or anonymous oh I was very struck by something which David Cameron said in Parliament the other day that's about rock R being the head of the snake my problem with this is that what seems to me to be the case is that Islamic state although it's a sort of state which has sort of Armed Forces and a kind of government which levies taxes is it may itself be a symptom of something else and what is that something else and what is the snake and where it's and that's something else seems to me to be a particularly Stern intolerant puritanical form Islam the origins of that Stern puritanical form of Islam and North America there in Riyadh in Saudi Arabia and the real difficulty which the Western nations have is that ever since even sides meeting with Roosevelt in in the Suez Canal on Roosevelt's way back from the altar there has been an extraordinarily tight link so I talked to special relationships earlier these special relationship or all special relationships the specialist most special totally special relationship in the world is the one between Saudi Arabia and the United States and we have a pretty special relationship with them too because we rely on that by our weapons and we rely on them for oil which is why for instance when the king of Saudi Arabia recently dyed flags were flown at half-mast in London and why the royal family spends half its time going to and from Riyadh on visits and why David Cameron recently accepted some a Waterman or why we never ever ever say anything about repression or intolerance in Saudi Arabia so I don't know whether we're looking in the right direction here is Islamic state a thing in itself or is it an outcrop of something else and is that something else something anybody is actually prepared to confront and if they're not prepared to confront it then are we at some point actually it helps make terms with it the way we made terms with the IRA and PLO I don't know but I think one of the things I'm absolutely certain is at our power by itself never won any kind of war any kind of circumstances and our hesitations over lying with the Syrian National Army under Assad or with the Syrian Kurds who frightened the pants of Turkey NATO Turkey remember makes it very difficult for us to form a military alliance which could effectively defeat Isis in the field which suggests me we don't really want to I may be wrong but it seems to me that if we were prepared if it's so desperate that it's the worst thing in the world if we were prepared to ally with Stalin that grizzly monster that's a defeat Hitler in 1941 then we really shouldn't Bork that an alliance with Bashar al-assad for instance now but we do which suggests to me that we don't really mean it and that we don't really intend it and that something else is going on I'm not sure what but I think that Saudi Arabia is really at the heart of it and I also would say as I said the other night somewhere else that British foreign policy is increasingly made in Saudi Arabia let's go back to your right yeah your earlier thesis something you've talked about we've talked a lot about Germany so but we've got a question here about France so has France just been out a willing follow up in this EU development that you've outlined what did they in fact try to dominate it and actually fail the history of Frances is a terrible tragedy and anybody who loves frogs which I do has to look on it and say that it is immensely sad what happened but a simple matter as courser describes in scholarly I think the birthrate of the two countries the the population the industrial capacity simply were not matched Germany overbore France on these matters in the first world and one of the things which really annoyed me most of all during the period of September the 11th and France's refusal to take part in the Iraq war with years at France which came from Americans cheese-eating surrender marquees and that stupid joke on Google looking up French military victories and finding the one on their leave aside the fact the most important French military victory in history was at Yorktown without which the Americans wouldn't have a country and leaving aside that law and Thank You Admiral come to grass particularly but leaving aside that one the French Resistance German invasion at Verdun is one of the great historical resistances of human civilization and just to contemplate what what what they went through for that is extraordinary but is it not rather easy to understand after going through that in the first world war that they were unwilling to go through it again in 1940 and it's a lot of French people will say to you if you personalize it sometimes it is a choice between Veda and Vichy and if you referring to us the Roz B's if you didn't have the English challenge you might understand that better I think France had any real choice and it's very interesting the man who probably pursued French integration of the European Union most of all from Swami's ROM was simultaneously a man of Vichy and a man who also managed at the absolutely right moment to switch his allegiance to the resistance which again summarizes a lot of what the French elite is really about not everybody was to go the resistance wasn't as big as it looked and nor would it have been here if we had been under the same circumstances they went through terribly difficult circumstances and they've got what seems to me to be quite a good compromise which is why they stand by it so firmly whether given the enlargement of the European Union and also the much greater power of Germany and their own economic crisis it can continue in such a way that it's bearable for them I don't know I think there is a de Gaulle at one stage and this is this is described in a wonderful passage in Hugo Young's book that blessed thought to go that one stayed sought to sabotage the European Union and get Britain and France out of it and you know who do you know who prevented him from doing it the British Foreign Office we're so determined to get the European Union going they torpedoed diggle's attempt break it up so it is it is an issue for full serious French Patriots such as to go and it always will be they resent it deep down that they know they have to do it but I don't think they're really ultimately had very much choice and I it doesn't it's not for us who have the great fortune of having that wonderful stretch of salt water between us and our continent it's not for us to lecture the my tour or to feel superior to them about it but it is for us to rejoice at the fact that we do have that stretch of water and we don't have to go that way just there was us one other aspect of that question do you think they failed in an attempt to you know dominate the EU or or at least to be an equal partner cuz your thesis is that they're no longer an equal time I think they always knew I think they always knew the deal they would have this shadow and Germany would have the substance and remember while this was going on they were going through the Letran boria's to 30 glorious years the great economic boom during which their their lives immensely improved France became the extremely advanced country it is now and so the economic consequences of the deal as well as the ability to continue to march across the world stage as a respected major power made it more bearable as it sits now when their economy is is stalled and it's obvious that their powers diminished and also they have a huge insoluble domestic political crisis and trying to cope with the front house you know it's now that begins to chafe but up till now they've been they've actually done rather well out of it and what the other thing of course is the Common Agricultural Policy which show which is part of the deal they got a lot of money out of it too but it's not it's it's not I don't think limitless I think the moment may be coming and I think the growth of the front of us you know absolutely follows that because this is this is a very very serious threat to the to the Fifth Republic as it now Stan that I think the moment maybe coming where frogs or a large part of frogs seriously seeks an exit ah now the microphone is up stairs are near the front right against the wall Peter how long do you think the Schengen Agreement will persist for how long do you think the EU will persist for taking into account the demographics changing by the day and that it's reckoned by some sources that indigenous Swedes will form a minority population in their own country in just 15 years time and by other sources 44 million Muslims now live in Europe and things are changing quite fast do you think the EU will will still be here in another 50 years time if it is do you think it will take the form it's taking now or something similar and by the way our veggie book the abolition of Britain I think he was too optimistic you think is what optimistic okay everybody everybody who's read that will know yes Allen mr. Allen has asked a very similar question to the one we've just had from bill well if I were a clairvoyant I get a job with mi5 which is serious need of them so I don't know um I think that there is a possibility which of course has origins in the French Empire which was as you all know largely in the Muslim parts of Africa particularly North Africa there is a possibility that the growth of Islam in Europe will lead to some sort of some of you may be familiar with the the the the work by the person who uses the pseudonym Battier or daughter of the Nile eurabia the idea that Europe and the Arab world will form a sort of union of what is now roughly the European Union not just North Africa and Egypt in the form of French Empire it's a possibility that's the direction we'll say I think that one thing that history tells us is that is that all kinds of extraordinary things can happen I think as I say this level of migration and I've been saying this for a long time long for most people even noticed it was going on probably cuz I was born in Walter and I'm very conscious of what goes on in that island and notice some years ago there was a major problem there but it's huge the the trans Mediterranean migration and the migration carry on the risk is enormous and it's it's it's it's going to change Europe politically demographically culturally and quite possibly religiously in a way which it's hard to see how anyone could control whether the European Union will survive in it to be the agency which then merges itself with something larger and the Arabia project comes true whether the European Union will fall apart because of its many internal contradiction and the the attitude of many of its leaders does remind one very much of the caricature of Marie Antoinette who was never that stupid the there is an enormous complacency in High Council the European Union because of partly because there is no real there's no opposition in the European Parliament there's no really independent press and much of Europe and all of these people are ludicrously complacent there are many possibilities and very few of them are good I'm afraid and if you're going to accuse me of optimism then I think you'll have to drop that we're now going to take a question it's on the left hand side yeah and two rows back right I've just finished reading Martine six myths history of Russia waded through it there are a number of things that come out of that one is that Russia has had influence in the caucuses and Ukraine over many many centuries to a greater or lesser degree and a strong leader is very very important within Russia given the strength of using one of the other things that comes out is that some of the problems of Russia or the historical problems Russia have come from the variable supply of food to the to the Russian people given that the Ukraine is a has been described as the breadbasket of Russian influence as it were and supplies a huge amount of food as I understand to the Russian people is this not a good enough reason for Putin to continue to be I don't need to have a very very strong influence in Ukraine um I'm sure it's part of it I'm not really sure about the Russian food supply nowadays other parts of Russia have developed IRA culture which didn't exist in the days when when Ukraine was first called the breadbasket of Europe so I don't know whether it's that vital though I its main importance of strategic piece of territory which if you don't hold your Kerli week and if you do hold your stable there's a there is an important point about Russia which which again people who are surrounded by large stretches of deep saltwater possibly need to understand now I know people sometimes say things about foreign languages which have more than faintly ridiculous and George W Bush saying the French had no word for entrepreneur is is is my is my lasting favorite but and I don't claim to be a fluent speaker Russian but I speak a bit and I have Russian friends and I've checked this out and it's true the Russian word for security or safety bills oppose most which forms part of the name of the KGB he cometh cuss at us in our business puzzlers T is a negative word what business means is without danger beers without oppose most danger and that's what it means and there is no positive word for safety in Russian there is in Moscow in Iran the more beautiful parts of South Moscow a street called by Lesure ordinance which means the street of the great horde and it's called that because the Golden Horde used to turn up there every five years to collect their tribute and people are told that the Asia begins at the Urals it's not true Moscow is a frontier city it's really where Europe ends and Asia begins it's a place which has never been safe which has been repeatedly invaded and that is that determines the whole nature of its politics it's why it's one of those places which where it's an army with a country rather than a country with an army and it will always be so as long as it exists until it's and you you're as likely to remove it as you are to be able to remove the Himalayas with a teaspoon it's there again like Germany and this was simple recognition that Russia has concerns and that it doesn't have natural borders that such as ours or such as those the United States the United States has as its neighbors Mexico and Canada I mean imagine if Poland had Mexico on one side in Canada or another how polish history would be different from having Germany on one side and Russia on the other but it's not that way if you have Mexico and Canada on North and South and the Atlantic and the Pacific on to your east and west you can be pretty smug but if you've got Germany on one side and China on the other then you can't and Russia can't be and the simple recognition of this fact would help us all to understand why Russia does get a little bit alarmed when people start maneuvering on its borders but even in the United States I reckon if the Russians started moving as if Quebec began to be held another referendum and declared independence from Canada and opened up a military alliance with Russia how long do you think it would be before the United States became perturbed and took some sort of action to bring that to an end I should say about 20 minutes I don't so it's I just shall we just all be a lot less smug about Russia and a lot more willing to understand that it has legitimate concerns about its security and future it's a it's regrettable I don't put in has some admirable causes as an international diplomat and for standing up his country but years as soon as two tyrant but Magnitsky died in prison under his direct power there is no doubt that the FSB was caught putting explosives into blocks of flats set up fake terrorist activities these are things which are known it can be proven leave aside all the all the all the rumors and some suggestions it's a and he is suppressed opposition and destroyed opposition media and it is is almost as bad as our NATO ally Russia other Island Turkey at this but he is actually much worse but it would be a Russia would be able to have a much more stable government and much better leaders if we didn't stop messing around with it and if you really really want Russia to be more free and low government than Democratic then stop messing around with Russia's borders and threatening it and irritating it and making it feel insecure would be a simple piece of advice I'd offer we're going to have time for one more question from upstairs we haven't had a question from the center block is there anyone who'd like to so first centrist the centrists upstairs anyone because meanwhile we have it think about if it's half a minute we got a question downstairs on the left of the center block five rows back good evening Peter thank you very much indeed for an interesting talk you said to us when you first started that today was the day of the toilet world World Toilet Day well toilet day you also mentioned you had some knowledge of Russian you may know that the word in Russian for toilet is unit as and the unit ass was a wash WC basin designed by mister Twyford who lived worked and formed the sanitary industry not five miles from here sir brother oh I'll tell you that earlier the Russian for railway station is is buck Sol because when the Russians came over to look at the British Railways they was shown the station then quite impressive at Vauxhall in London and they said what is this call and there was old books that I'd like so also there is a command of the Russian Navy Rinda Bay which means ring the bell has similar origins it's not just that but I had other words than than the unit s for the facilities in Russia now we're gonna yes thank you for that most interesting question well it wasn't a question announcement we're going to we're going to end the evening where the question from Richard Wallach ott and i which i think is inevitable and take your time over this one peter and just put germany to one side will the united kingdom be better staying in or leaving they the european union and you might want to take account of your theory of german hegemony into account we would have been better off staying out oh when the opportunity was offered to us to come in in the first place it was wrong to join it was mistake economically politically diplomatically historically what worries me is that i'm not sure we have still got the wherewithal as a people and as a country to lead and i don't think i've been against this referendum from the beginning i thought it was a promise made by somebody who had no intention of keeping it and who was astonished when he won the election in fact that he did have to do so nothing else can explain it seems to me that the laughable nature of these demands which not even demands which he's making on the our European partners which feeble as they are I cannot be met and how quite how he's going to finesse that I don't know but if you want sleeve then sure you have to have this is after all the parliamentary country governed by the Queen parlor you have a political party standing as a general election on a policy of leaving winning a majority in the House comment and the fact is that this country has had many years to turn its back on the Conservative Party which has been the enthusiastic party of our humiliation in Europe since the 1960s many years have punished that party for leading us into this economic and political disaster in the rape of our laws which to me is the worst by far the worst part of it all else's shrinks into nothing beside the way in which our common law and presumption of innocence and all the the great things which our forebears won for us are being chucked away by this but we've had all this time to reject the conservative party those of us who care about the country and year after year election after election after election this dreadful dreadful organization survives when it should be being flushed down the USA lost wipers and if we haven't got the spirits to kick the conservative body down the plumbing do we possess the spirit to be an independent country again I don't know it seems unlikely to me I hope so but nothing in what I see of the behavior attitude the British people suggest that most of us care enough many of us fear independence and I think that the fear of Independence the fear of being our own will be exploited endlessly by those who wish to keep us in during the referendum campaign and I think that leaving aside or else that fear will probably drive us to stay in and that I think sums up the question are we still the people we were before how many people can even remember being an independent country or what it was like and how many care I'd love to be wrong I'd really love to be wrong but I don't see any sign of it so prove me wrong by all means but that's really my answer to it I wish it was so but it may well not be ladies and gentlemen I think I promised you lively and challenging evening with tonight's guest speaker and I'm sure you agree with me that he hasn't let us down forthright in his opinions very clear in what he has to say and I think possibly to the surprise of many he has given us a lecture which has made us think back through at least a hundred years of history to think much more about what it is to be British and what it is to be European etc etc but that alone I am deeply grateful because it adds to our sum of knowledge as we contemplate these complicated issues and I do appreciate the robustness with which he's conducted tonight's question time and left us with a great deal of food for thought I just wish that we could discuss some of the other topics that we have in mind with Peter Hitchens but perhaps just perhaps he might come back again at some future date I for one hope so and the rest of you I hope you will show your appreciation of his visit right now thank

Channel: Super Man

Views: 514,271

Keywords: Peter Hitchens (Author), European Union (Membership Organization), Politics (TV Genre), Germany (Country), Russia (Country), Ukraine (Country), Europe (Continent), France (Country), United Kingdom (Country), History (TV Genre), Geography (Field Of Study), Soviet Union (Country), German Empire (Country), Nazi Germany (Country), Russian Empire (Country), United States Of America (Country), Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) (Government Agency)

Id: 3CNeDtZmpjU

Length: 81min 49sec (4909 seconds)

Published: Sat Nov 28 2015