Peter & Elizabeth Fenwick - Death is an Expansion of Consciousness

[Music] welcome everyone welcome to dying your way i am more than delighted that i could say to have the guests that we have on for today's podcast we have peter and elizabeth fennick and we have my husband co-founder of dying your way terry mepham um peter and elizabeth fennec are co-authors often and they're off authors separately peter is a neuropsychiatrist and he is a professor emeritus at king's college in london and his body of work has been about near-death experiences and reincarnation and putting a focus on dying well in a society that has pretty much lost the art of dying which happens to be the name of his book that i will talk about later on um yeah i i have to say to both of you when we had some friends that were in india and they were um we were house sitting for them for a year and she's a she's a palliative care doctor here in the bustleton area in western australia and she had at least three or four of your books at the same time that i was writing uh the dying your way portal and it was just a gift to me to be able to read your work and feel validated in what i was doing it was very validating to get your insights and of course you've got a lot of things that are posted on youtube and ted talks and yeah people will have to go exploring after this conversation for themselves um so welcome to all of you i'm really happy to have you thank you thank you i am i'm just really curious how your journey from being a neuropsychiatrist led you to near-death experience work or was it the other way around no it's it's an interesting question that in fact uh i was a neuropsychiatrist and a neurophysiologist and i was at st thomas's hospital running the neurophysiology department and raymond moody's book came up over the horizon uh near-death experiences and his accounts of them and i knew straight from the outset that it was all rubbish this happened in california would never cross the atlantic and uh so i just put it in that pile of books that really are unimportant and then into my consulting room came this guy he'd had a cardiac catheter at a london hospital which had gone wrong it had a near-death experience and he got a chronic anxiety state uh following it and he came to me because he was anxious well of course he was a prime example of exactly what moody said he had uh the leaving the body he had going down the tunnel he had going into the light he had conversations in the light he saw dead relatives he had a life review i mean it was a home picture was he anxious because he had that experience no he's anxious because he'd nearly died oh okay in his you see when he came out of his body he saw all the people desperately trying to resuscitate him and that made him really anxious then when he done down the tunnel of course this wasn't a problem anymore yeah anyway uh i i listened to his story and i had to make up my mind had he just recently been to california or was this real no it was real so i became interested in it because this was clearly an extension of consciousness but the interesting thing it was um an extension that you could study i have to ask another question and i hope you don't mind if it's not too personal how old were you when you met this patient how long ago 40 you're 40 years old about 40 years gosh i think i always think it's five dollars yeah i can't remember the first um 88 83 was my first bbc transmission on it and 82 was when moody's book came on 72 72. really as long as yeah yes yes and um the because i became interested in it i was known uh that i was interested because i started uh publishing data on it and the bbc asked me to uh co-host uh a program called glimpses of light this is death um and so i did that and then we got um 2 000 letters in response wow you remember letters these are the things i do this clicking stuff and so we looked through those and i selected 500 which were i felt the sort of core experiences that people had and then i sent out a questionnaire so to standardize the data and that really was what our first book the truth and the light was written on it was i think we had 350 or 400 replies at that time we got 450 altogether and so that gave us a very very good uh idea of the range of near-death experiences but the interesting thing there was that when we looked at what caused them it was protein there were every type and shape of things sitting in front of the farm warmly at home was enough to trigger one in some people obviously childbirth uh serious illness um heart attacks uh you name it it was in the list and so it became quite apparent to me that near-death experience is universal and it okay it's tied to brain function in some way but you'll never really understand it unless you look at the time when the brain is apparently not functioning that's you'll get your best data so we chose heart attacks and uh started us one of our studies on patients who had near-death experiences and heart attacks with the argument that there was no brain working at that time that came interesting because it developed a lot of controversy and well i was going to ask you so what did all of your your scientist and doctor friends think of you doing that work and elizabeth what did you think about him going off in this direction all right i am i i'm not really a scientist i read medicine at cambridge which was where we met um but i didn't i would it was really one of those things you talk yourself into because it seems a very worthwhile career and you have a vague interest but then i decided i actually didn't want to be a doctor and so what i really like doing is writing and so i started and did some journalism for a few years and wrote several books on things that were nothing to do with death and dying childbirth and child guidance all that sort of thing but you were generally supportive of what he was doing well yes i could the thing is he's slightly dyslexic and he can talk wonderfully but when he puts things down on paper they they get garbled so i'm i'm an ungarbler full of that one and so it works very well and as for the death and dying that was interesting because um it's a very difficult concept to have a true belief in unless you've either experienced it yourself or else has happened to peter um you meet somebody that you whose opinion you really trust and you know that they're speaking the truth as they see it and um i was very sort of i thought very interesting topic but i think it wasn't until i met an old school and college friend who told me that she had had you know she described the actual experience she'd had it was after a skiing accident and i believe i mean what she was saying was what happened and so it made me well it made me open-minded which is what i i needed to be at that time and your friend believed it sorry your friend who was telling you the story believed what had happened to her it's a question yeah absolutely and so and it was a very valuable thing because these people are they are telling stories which are in a sense beyond belief so you have to suspend your false beliefs and say have i actually experienced this myself no so i can't really say one way or the other can i but i believe what they're saying i've i've had two personally oddly enough and i'm still here to talk about it and and they were very different one was uh i i just could feel the life force going out of my body i was hemorrhaging from a surgery that i was had and i was home and i was hemorrhaging and i could literally feel the life force going out of me and it was very frightening and um that i mean that's the short story of it uh the other time was a car accident that i had where a truck pulling four horses so huge truck hit me broadside and i um was going off of the road and was just so matter of fact like this is this is how i'm gonna die it was just like i wasn't scared at all i was like this is it and i was repeating a mantra that i say a lot and i as i was going in and out of consciousness the mantra i couldn't repeat it anymore but the mantra was repeating itself inside me and i was totally calm totally without pain there was no experience of fear in that moment at all and it wasn't until later when they were pulling me out of the car that i was in tremendous pain but um yeah it was if you experience it you do become a believer you know it was uh yes yeah and my father had had um when he was dying you know he was speaking to relatives that had passed on you go oh sweet do you see them they're here and there's oh there's freddy and there's sloan and he's he he looked at me like i know you don't see what i'm saying and i was just i don't but i totally believe that you do so we just had to laugh about it and maybe you know 12 hours later he was gone uh it's fascinating um the reason that we got into death and dying from near-death experiences is that uh i was wondering whether the uh near-death experience was part of the dying process or not and so the thing that we had to do then was to go and look at people who were actually dying and of course you uh immediately start with um the literature and uh when we read ready it was quite clear that death visitors were common and that uh um what was the name of the guy who uh bruce grayson which one are you talking about the one in the 20s who wrote the book oh um yes he was a his wife was a gynecologist what was his name it was the first book on these experiences um what how far back like in about 1920s 1920s his wife was an obstetrician and she told him about um a patient of hers who had had an experience and that's what persuaded him to examine it and and more detail and i'll probably remember the name as a guy by the end of the program but yeah it starts with a b the interesting thing about about this particular experience was that his wife when he was attending the woman uh her mother i think it was her mother who was alive came to see her and uh she reported this now it was always thought there was dead people so uh he was uh convinced that uh it must be wrong but in fact they found out later that her mother just died so in fact it's all fitted in very nicely and that's what prompted the study but that really was my my same path that did the near-death experience indicate anything about the actual process of death and so i was very lucky because i was able to get a research grant uh from the bial foundation who a wonderful foundation thank you bl and um uh that's allowed me to go to to form a team and going to hospices etc and the thing that we found very very marked was that there are two stories going on in the hospices i don't know what it's like in in australia the medics say no to hallucinations this is of no interest people come in here they hallucinate and their sodium's wrong and they don't have enough water etc so you don't have to believe that and then they die and that's the end of it whereas the nurses said that's not right we see a lot of these things and they are very very meaningful to the people who are dying and to dismiss them as hallucinations is to miss the whole point because they are are comforting they are indicating a when they're going to die because they'll usually give you a date b they will um uh uh come back for you to guide you through it i met a fascinating doctor from canada no it was a nurse actually and uh she was more or less in charge of a hospice way up in british columbia and she said nobody dies alone in my hospice now i didn't believe that for a minute because being as far away as she was there were obviously going to be times when people couldn't get to the hospice and some of her patients would die alone so i said how come she said well when people are getting close to death and they don't have any visitors what they do is what i do is to say who do you think will come and collect you interesting question yeah and by that time it seems to be truer for them and so they say oh i don't know mary my my grandmother she'll come and then the nurse each morning would say have you seen mary yes and that's saying no and then one morning the person said yes mary was here yesterday she said next time mary comes go with her that's exactly what happened and i think that's a wonderful way of using deathbed visitors in flag they give you this kind there are there are doctors that you know i can name that are just absolutely fabulous and very much a part of um using um human skills i would say supporting you know people that are on their deathbed and i listen to the news about the the icu people that are with covid patients and really in some ways they're experiencing the death bed experience themselves as clinicians for the first time and are woefully aware that they don't have the skills and the training to support the spiritual and emotional and holistic needs that are really probably more important than the physical needs of the patient at that time um what what are you seeing now with not necessarily because of coven but just because death has been removed and sanitized in our culture so what are you both seeing um that is the reality and what could be improved just either one of you what what comes to mind um oh yes okay can you hear our cat the cat can go let the cat get come and show yourself to all the australians um i i think first of all we could do a lot more teaching um i have uh uh we have nine grandchildren between us and two three of them will probably go into medicine one of them has just completed his medical course and i asked him what have you been taught about palliative care he said well nothing really um we would tell that hospices exist but really nothing more than that i said did you go to a hospice and we're able to talk to dying people oh no nothing like that and so the first thing we can do is we can actually tell medical students what death is like um ours has changed no do you think we need to guess um uh so that that's the first thing second thing is to try and normalize it yeah you are in fact um going to die so first of all accept that and it's it's no big deal because there are people there who come and look after you uh the um the death bed visitors they'll be there and then we found that people uh go into a transcendent realm the death bed visitors will take them into a transcendent realm show them the realm and then back into the hospice again yeah we lost the sound there let's see is it the modem so they get familiarized with this area and then the date is set for when they'll go so it's very important but you you must be familiar with the work of monica reynes [Laughter] you must do a podcast with monica you'll love it okay she's palliative care then i'll send you her email address palliative care theologian in zurich and she's done a wonderful number of studies and she's got she talks about the transitions pre-transition transition post-transition and this is what happens before and uh then a little gap and then you come up to the actual death itself and the thing which interested me is that people get a change in their mental state the first the first part is clearing cleaning giving up uh getting rid of attachments all that so it's something you can tell the dying people get rid of your attachments you're not going to want them and then uh transition is it's a little bit more complex but you're beginning to lose your egg you've lost your ego structure and you're really without without it then you become non-dual just before you die so then becoming non-dual you become cosmic so everyone becomes non-dual i mean it's at her theory that everyone becomes non-dual just through the just about eighty percent eighty percent okay high figures are eighty percent that's amazing oh it's totally amazing um no we have to look at death as something quite different it is in fact an expansion of consciousness horrible words to say rather than a ruling eyes turning off why is that horrible expansion of consciousness why is that horrible it's not it's absolutely wonderful but most my colleagues would say peter you're mad get home but fortunately it's all founded on data this is what the dying experience at that time but i'm i'm sure from everything that i've learned and um i've i've i try to think i think probably i've only been at one actual deathbed which was my brothers i missed my mothers and my fathers but the one thing which was really apparent that i learnt was that you have to you have to resolve any emotional problems that you have any any foods that you've had with people um if you can get your relationships right before you die then i would have said that you've removed one of the big barriers to a to a peaceful death um so i think that's another important thing to to teach people so that they're ready for it i don't know how much i don't know how much attitudes have changed in england in hospices now do you feel that most hospice directors are more receptive to the idea than they were when we first started working in the field well there's a hospice quite near to where we are yeah um in scotland and uh the director there said none of these things happen peter um and i said okay well can i come and talk at the hospice and we'll talk to we'll have all the palliative care nurses in etc and the other clinicians and he organized that which was very good of him and of course the nurses kept on saying yeah we recognize that we recognize that we recognize that and so at the end he said well maybe i have to believe you and another palliative uh care host not a hospice in fact i i gave the findings for that hospice and he said peter you sure you didn't get your data mixed up i mean it's fascinating fascinating yes the first hospice he approached in london which was a very well-known hospice and i won't even mention its name but the director said looked very almost aggrieved i think it said nothing like that ever happens in my hospice if it was a sort of personal failure they should have started seeing these things but i can't believe that it's as bad now terry yeah we would hope that it's changing i know that um i was interested to hear you talking about um letting go of things and we when we left um because we met in new york and then we went to new zealand where i'm from originally and we went and visited my brother who was in end stages of cancer and he was a real warrior and he used to say well i mean he was very open about you know that his life was coming to an end and he even spoke with his grandson and you know told him that you know grandpa was not going to be around for much longer but he said to us one day you know he he didn't know what was going to happen you know that was the only thing afterwards and i nearly i wanted to hit him across the head and say look you've done it all before don't worry about it it's going to be okay and eventually we weren't there when he when he passed but the morning that he left i think he's he was lying in bed and and his wife said you're ready to leave aren't you and he said yeah he he'd relax he'd accepted that it was time and she said well you know don't worry about anything you know don't worry about me you're fine to go and he died that morning and then one of our our nieces the daughter of our younger brother he visited her in a dream a couple of days later and he said to her i don't know why i was worried he said it was really easy he said mum and dad were there to meet me and you know it was a beautiful experience and that i had nothing to worry about and um so he it got to that point where he could relax but then i was thinking what i was reminded i was listening to one of your talks today and i was reminded of was my father he had a different experience because he died um nearly 35 years ago i was in um i was in australia i think and then but um we didn't have a good relationship we had some stuff between us and the last time i saw him was when he dropped me off on the side of the road and i hitchhiked up to uh up to um to auckland and new zealand to catch a plane to fly to australia and then i went to india and um and he died later well he died in 1985 it was the year that i got married and um i was in india 1992 and because i'd had a real struggle with my father we i had tissues um that were still plaguing me and self-consciousness was one of them and i asked my guru i said you know how do i deal with this and she put me onto this guy called shamaji and he turned out to be an indian fellow that had brought past life therapy to the west so we sat down and we had a chat and he got me talking about my father in in the third person and he said you know if he was here now i'd give him a real good talking to um because he you know he didn't treat me so well and then he said told me to go off and talk out loud and read and just do some stuff meantime and i was to meet him later that day when i met him he said he had met my father he'd spoken with him and he said that he had been unable to move on in his journey because of the amount of regret that he had and this was seven years after he died and he still hadn't been able to carry on in this journey because of the weight of regret of how he had treated me well shamaji spoke to him and said he's okay now he's in a good place he's well looked after he's um i was under the guidance of of a great saint so my life was was in good shape and he was then able to release all of that anxiety that he had had and was able to move on in his journey and that was yeah so that really brought me into that knowing of we have to let go we can't take this stuff with us if if we don't sort it now you know it can last that long and um and and a big part of what i'm was drawn to in this in the dying your way movement that we've created that was just to help people get over the fear of the unknown and not worry about what is coming you know to really enjoy it and to experience it and listening to you and the near-death experiences that people have the great majority of them are really lovely sublime loving experiences and if you if you combine what what he just said with what elizabeth said you know it's just about if you you if you prepare before you get on your deathbed and clear out all of those emotional things beforehand you won't have to wait around seven years after you died yes it's very very very worthwhile knowing that um in fact one of the things monica did uh was she correlated the attitudes of people um before they came into the hospice and when they came into the hospice with suffering anxiety fear and transcendence so she she the correlations with all of them and uh obviously the people who suffered least were those who had had a near-death experience they knew what it was like there was no problems for them yoga prayer meditation all helped but there was one group and that was the group who were curious as to what would happen they did extremely well and i think really one of the things you can tell with dying people is be curious about what's happening and if you think about that try and hold fear and be curious you can't and so the fear goes and you look forwards with a curious much more open mind so i think that's a really good thing so i tell people now if you're going to die be curious i'm going to use that use that yes yeah i think wonderful well terry and i are you know very um involved in the death and dying community and because of the internet it's now a global movement so we're work with um the international doula association with the australian doula association i mean we're really um working with duelists to walk that journey and be advocates for patients from the time of diagnosis and till the end so people in our opinion are involved in hospice way too late and now you can be in full curative mode and get palliative care with it and that makes the transition into hospice care much more seamless and it's it's just something that we feel passionate about that in this day and age no one needs to die in pain or fear or anxiety and that's what our goal is with what we're doing and we use the internet primarily to consult and teach and work with people so being able to speak with you i mean you please just give us any kind of advice you want because we're here with you today to listen to anything you have to teach us or to teach our audience yes i have one question for you okay uh fast forward ten years okay and um the ability to go to a clinic in switzerland is now everywhere and so if you want to die you can bring up your gp and providing those certain characteristics you know you've got a terminal illness etc etc uh he'll come along and give you uh an overdose of an anaesthetic really so you go unconscious and then your heart stops what is your view of that do you think people i'm shaking my head you're the second person that's asked me that today yeah oh you're well prepared then i i am well i mean we've both talked about it a lot because you do get um clients that you work with that are just ready to go and it's just not happening fast enough yeah we we promote natural death so we're not we're not trying to prolong it we're not trying to shorten it it's um and more than anything i think we just want to empower people to make their own choices and to make it earlier rather than later and we're here to give them the tools that they need to answer their questions whether it's very practical questions or whether it's you know needing emotional support or spiritual support um i am i'll just speak from my own experience and you can tell me what you think terry but if if i knew i was close to the end i would probably do the uh voluntary removal of eating and drinking just because from the studies that i've read and done that that's a very even euphoric way to go and it's a very um patient driven way to go and it does promote a natural death if you didn't have all of the bells and whistles that you get in icu i do want to die at home i don't want to be in a hospital tethered to anything you know i mean that's just my personal goal and that's the goal probably of 80 percent of the people that we work with but 65 of the people are going to be in an icu you know or in a hospital when they go and it's everyone's choice i mean what what do you think um [Music] yeah same sort of thing it's i'd like i like the full experience of life and dying is part of that and what leads up to that is also a part of that and should not be missed um you know i don't like the idea of prolonged pain and suffering but palliative care can take care of that but one of the things that i read my group say one time was that pain is your friend because at that time you are burning off so much karma in such a short time and the idea is to um to get rid of all of that stuff and karma is something that keeps bringing us back you know the impressions that we create and the idea is to is to clear clear your life and you know going through a bit of pain um if it's going to save you lifetimes um i'm coming back you know that's a that's a pretty good deal but the idea you know um that um yeah shortening your life unnaturally is is not something that i would ascribe to but um but it's a choice if someone wanted to do the volunteer volunteer assisted dying through a physician i mean we would probably support them to to figure that out you know i mean i feel it's a choice yeah and as claire says the removal of food and drink you actually use more energy trying to digest food than you do um if you don't have it and the body can stay alive longer with less stress if you know in those circumstances and so that would be probably the um recommended way i mean like claire says it allows a natural death what do you think elizabeth i i feel very very strongly i think that if this is a natural part of the dying process i don't see how we could argue that it depends on the way you die i mean whether you die in your sleep whether you die from the covet virus or an accident or or whether somebody gives you an injection so that you just die peacefully then and there i cannot believe that that is going to deprive you of an experience these they don't take place necessarily uh we hear of the ones that take place in clear consciousness but i don't feel that that in any way means that if you're not in clear consciousness you don't have the experience that makes no sense to me at all i think it's a universal experience if it exists and i think it does yeah i think you can argue that um the rapid transitions for example a car crash um falling off a mountain whatever um uh the people who have near-death experiences clearly go through the whole process and it looks as if um that is the process that you're going to go through um i i very much like the idea that uh you can burn off a lot of a lot of karma in the process but i think a lot of this is preparation actually i think people they go into hospices should be prepared um i mean we have to learn every other skill why don't we learn a skill about how to die it's so straightforward and of course in victorian times it was very different when i would have had two or three siblings of mine who had died i'd know what death is i might even lost my mother in childbirth you'd have all the grandchildren around you too yes that's very important we actually did that with my mother when she was at home when she died and we had all the family around and people were singing and telling tales and yeah yeah i think that's the way to go we can create but elizabeth i i i agree with you that it's your choice and if that's someone that has thought about it as an informed medical decision and they have the medical support and palliative support to do that i would move heaven and earth to support a client to do that i would never take away anybody's choice because that's you know i just know what i would do but that i i'm never going to impose that on anybody else i should be so lucky that you know i get it to happen the way i want it to happen but because we don't know i just want to be prepared and i try to prepare my clients you know and i bet you're not frightened of it are you no you're not frightened no um not at all and i think the big thing is is what um you're saying peter is that it's about education it's about knowing what's coming coming and and preparing yourself for that whether it's um you know that you uh hasten it along or you tough it out but the idea of that death is a sacred experience and and it's a transition and it's a moving to another realm if you know that that's what awaits you and you can get rid of the fear um i think that's the biggest thing and one of the things that um i really like about the um interview i watched you with is was about yeah those near-death experiences and and um death experiences that people have and just the beauty of them and people knowing that would take a lot of the fear away yes it means we have to go back a little bit further because i'm a psychiatrist minds and brains um i you you get many patients or some patients who come in tell you they want to die they want to kill themselves because they're depressed now um should i hand them the means to do it i mean obviously not what i do is i give antidepressants their mood changes and you know they go on enjoying their life now uh what are you going to do with the people who you feel have just got profoundly depressed and want to end it all i mean you you're obviously not going to fill them up with antidepressants no i mean i think there's you know we have links for cognitive behavioral therapy and i would just get on the you know searching the kind of support that they needed and you know certainly suicide hotlines and things like that but it's not finding someone like yourself i mean it's uh i mean i had an uncle who committed suicide and it was the trauma that that inflicted on people that remained i mean it's um yeah i mean it's it affects so many people the people that do commit suicide it affects so many people in that ripple effect in the realm and my father was just like you know he he just said it was a murder it wasn't a suicide it was a murder and that's just what i'm going to say sweet i mean that's how he had to like deal with it in his mind that his brother was murdered that he couldn't have committed suicide so yeah i would just love for for people that are out there that are thinking about it to know that there is help out there and it's just so important to to reach out and um you know there's you tell someone someone that you trust that can uh help you through it and walk you through it it's you need professional you need professional help you need professional help there's a little gap as you come up to death um all these people are going to die but as they come closer some get very depressed by the process i think really what we're saying is that it's proper care for the individual in in the press in the times that you cut to death then of course it's no longer a question yeah so when you asked me that question i was thinking about someone who did not have a chronic progressive illness yeah that's a whole that's a whole other thing that really needs a lot of support you know um and again a combination to me of something like cognitive behavioral therapy and medication you know or just talking just talking yes getting a puppy we're very much on the same page yes i remember reading about um i think it was a buddhist community and they lived out you know in the um in the wilderness and the in nature and when somebody came that was disturbed they would be putting a little heart away in in a beautiful natural setting and just left there you know fed and left to themselves and more often than not just being in nature alone and cured a lot of angst uh yeah because there's there's nothing there to fight against and and so it had an amazing effect and i know the effects of nature uh are very healing um for a lot of things and i mean that's that's why you go on the ocean every day that's why i go in the ocean every day even yeah i like that very much because it goes quite close to the japanese idea of tree bathing and so what you do is you immerse yourself in the trees in the forest and it's that which is enormously healing which is saying exactly the same thing that you've just said yes i think it's very important i am i am just so um not wanting to let this conversation end because a i wish you were right here so i could hug you yeah i think that what i really wanted to accomplish in this conversation is is just letting my audience hear directly from both of you what you've learned and how all of us that are part of the deaf literacy movement need to go forward and to to um support others and what we're all going to ultimately have to face and that what we've all said it there are so many things that can be done and options that are out there and um yeah do you want to give us any like parting words of wisdom before we one parting word of wisdom we have to we have to end freud's paradox freud's paradox states when you talk about death you always talk about someone else's and never your own as soon as we we solve that to make life a lot easier voids paradigm freud's paradox for instance absolutely i know we we do talk about somebody else's and and we need to have that conversation about our own death their own passing and i mean you know i i look forward to it i'm not looking forward to it happening anytime soon but i'm quite looking forward to the experience it's um it's one more great experience and um we just want to do it together yeah and the thing is that i mean coming from the tradition that i do we've all done so many times before and that's my intuitive knowing is that it's nothing new it's nothing scary and it's nothing i haven't done before and um it might be a topic for another um podcast because i i'm sure it can go on for it but you'll also talk a lot a lot about reincarnation and that's an interest of yours it's just something that you would like to to um give us a little bit of podcast number two give it the taser what you're thinking is on that well anyway i'm going to hold this book up the art of dying by this wonderful couple and if you could just you know educate yourself you know and reach out you know there's just so much out there and help others you know particularly at this time and i want to thank you peter and elizabeth so much for being on the dying your way podcast and just lots of love and thank you so much for the work that you've done for the world we just can't thank you enough

Channel: Dying Your Way

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Length: 52min 32sec (3152 seconds)

Published: Thu Aug 20 2020