Peter A Levine, PhD on Shame - Interview by Caryn Scotto D'Luzia

hi I'm Karen Scott I didn't see a somatic therapist and author of the alchemy of shame transformation book and I'm a pleasure of speaking with Peter Levine who was written a seminal book waking the tiger and the founder of a breakthrough body based from a resolution model somatic experiencing that has helped so many people all over the world Peter it is such an honor to have an opportunity to speak with you today is one of the greatest pioneers of somatic therapy shucks thank you it's good to see you as always I wanted to talk to you about Shane because that seems to be a topic that a lot of us work with our clients and observe a morning one when it works well and it can be very tricky when we're working with it I like to read to you what Stephen Porges gave as a definition of shame of course even gorgeous the author of the power Daniel theory and according to Porges he says shame is a parasympathetic break in an excited state a fast-track physiological response that can overwhelm higher cortical function how do you interpret that you tell me that for us well let's we start with the first hour well just generally how do you see that in your hands well I first of all I think there are two different distinct types of physiological pattern of shame one is the agitated shame and that's can you see that the jive like this and they're looking away but they're still like like this or then there's the full collapse shame right and I think what Steve is talking about when he talks about the the excited state and then the parasympathetic that's the agitated shame state and that's actually easy to work with because there's more energy to it and shame is is one of the basic biological responses that social animals need to organize into into groups into hierarchies it's also what lets the little one know that something is really bad and shouldn't be done again so if if the two-year-old starts putting his hands fingers the three-year-old putting his fingers in his little sister's baby sister's eyes you need to stop that right away and so this is a response that stops everything that's in action it's a break as Steven 4j says and now the problem is when shame has become chronic when shame isn't repaired C shame is meant to be repaired so no don't do that again but the end then John goes like this it just yeah they say it's an sweetheart you know you can't do that but it's not that you're a bad person you know we love you we and they get the hug and it gets repaired unfortunately that often is not the case and the child is left with this repetitive physiological state which is very similar to what you see in the shutdown with trauma and I think that's one of the reasons actually this is the logical reason reasons why trauma often is associated with same States because they have a similar psychophysiological patterning Wow sense feel one of the first people that ever heard talk about the connection between shame and disgust and it seems really important and can you explain that connection right now sure disgust a writ probably originates again as in a bed with a biological function so if if you taste something that's bad not only if somebody else tastes something or eat something that's bad and they start the vomit the all the people around feel that same level to discuss and the function is to get that out whatever it is that you ate or not to eat something in the in the first place now she went shame so in sunders you're getting rid of something that shouldn't be inside and that's that's discussed getting that out so in shame when the person is habitually shamed is chronically shamed they are taking in that badness and so disgust is the innocence the the the the bio psychological way that people begin to get out that shame it doesn't belong in me I'm not a bad person and often discussed is a gatekeeper to other emotions such as shame such as sadness such as anger like because often discuss the wait a minute that doesn't belong with me a lot of times when children ashamed they're shamed by someone who was doing a shameful thing and so what they're saying is wait a minute the shame belongs to what you did to me not how I feel so it moves to about the externalizing it externalizing feel discuss for the machines that write in other words you've internalized it yes so the antidote is to externalize it that makes a lot of sense how about make seeing it back at its source there's a lot of people write a lot about seeing Shing return back to its source whether it's a parent door or school teacher or whoever did the Shamy how do you how do you how do you feel about what do you mean return to the source I'm not trying to stand question you're working with a client in the session and they suddenly remember we experiencing a shaming that happened in school saving first grade and they remember the teacher or the whole classroom so humiliating every millionaire basically which there's a close connection between shame and humiliation and it'll work that sense of not only externalizing but saying well that teacher was was this was the one who really owns this feeling not that who it belongs to yes I the child just made a mistake where the child didn't know an answer it wasn't that they're a bad person again and the teacher is shaming them and humiliating them Millie a ssin is a form of chronic shame shame has a biological function again to keep us from doing things that interfere with the social group humiliation is valueless it only it only breeds corrosive emotions well that brings me to the question of the blame game in a session so just give you an example you're working with a client and you have good rapport and you're making good progress you've been making the progress over a number of months and then they come into your to your office and suddenly they're sort of blaming you seems like for everything including the fact that it's a rainy day and it just kind of feels like you're playing a blame game what do you mean what is that pointing to and what are some ways of working yeah well it's not another fairly complicated question and it course it's not a matter of if but when you know we try to explain to ourselves how we're feeling and often that becomes externalized as blaming somebody else now the person may have been making good progress getting good feelings now remember there's no way you're going to get good feelings without they're also being the swing to the other side which is some kind of a bad feeling and again well if the person let's look at it this way if the person is really lauding the therapist for helping them yet at the good feelings then a good therapist says well granted I was your guide here but this is something that you did because it became something that therapists did then when you're feeling cruddy then it's the therapists fault then the sun's not shining so that's something you can maybe get at the pass question based shape and what I mean by that is the embarrassment that comes up whether it's in children or adults when they have needs and sometimes that particularly can come up around being ill or aging and suddenly there's this big embarrassment of apology over you know oh and you know sorry that you have to move the chair or that we have to do this or that I just sort of you know I'm wondering because we often see the base shame as some kind of attachment wounding I wonder if you see it in that way and if you do see it in that way when we work with it are we working first with attachment and then with shaming or how do you even see the debased shame kind of well I'm going to insert them here first not shyness and shyness is a natural developmental phase of vulnerability and also the feeling that someone the adults the parent can see through you see into you and that can evoke a disgust or shame or disgust response because they're seeing inside your viscera inside your inside your gut but the the shyness itself is part of spontaneity so if either goes in in that direction as in terms of spontaneous playfulness or if the parent is is penetrating I don't mean necessarily sexually but penetrating with their with their attention then that can turn into shame and a lot of times when people feel the the spontaneousness that they they then fall back into shame and in other words they don't get wait a minute this is actually a good feeling this is a healthy feeling salubrious feeling hey that's really fast hey I'm trying to think in a session if I was working with someone in a session and that came up you know where they kind of felt like there was a way that they were being penetrated in some shyness or being seen yes or being organs seen how how I was sort of work with that so that it didn't all in the shaming side but into that war that spontaneous love it that's right well I mean I think that's the key right there is to be able to access that playfulness the playfulness yeah this and to appreciate the shyness you know when you see four year old kids in their calling like this this is like whoa you know aren't I just great and and and that's you know and that's when the parents could be yes you are great you are great by the way so okay you still have to eat you still have to eat your spinach can't fold your brother's figured things isn't yeah all of these these kind of things yeah well it kind of moves me into a question that I want to ask you about proprioception and I know that you recently published an article through darkness researched well through frontiers yeah consciousness psychology consciousness here yeah and the the base of that was the link between proprioception and healing trauma right yes yes so I'm just thinking about that because you're talking about the 24 some playfulness in a session and I wonder if we can apply that idea of clients using different proprioceptive methods also with shame and in the shame resolution right again you have to be careful about that because if you just have the person go into their body when they're feeling shame they are very likely just to collapse into it so one of the tools I find to be very helpful is to have the person become aware that they're their eyes are averting that their eyes are looking away and down that their shoulders are kind of slumped over and then to guide them to lead them through an exercise where okay if you notice as you notice that and if you just let it increase just a little bit what would that look like what would that feel like and then what would it look like and what would it feel like when it begins to turn around and go in the opposite direction so you're going into the shame posture physiology and then out of the shame physiology posture moving back and forth and then you yes your pendulum your shifting so you don't get stuck in it and then because that's the problem with shame shame itself isn't the problem it's getting stuck in shame and and and and a lot of times children aren't respected and that is an injury that is a defender a loss of dignity that's right because children deserve dignity people observe all people deserve dignity and when again a child is just shamed in shame you're taking the dignity away you're taking that underpinning what it means to be yourself with other selves I love that about your work I love that you speak about dignity and I watch you work with people that you actually work with that issue you know activity it's just so moving and touching to me and I think it's a huge huge piece that that's missing in a lot of therapeutic approaches and gosh I hope not well sometimes sometimes it is but I really really love that binky you know that that actually brings me to a question it kind of ties into what I do right now very often in somatic schools of movement they will talk about the authentic self is movement and I I see that yoga and dance can be very therapeutic for punishing survivors and I'm wondering if you see that connection there and if there's any people into viewing that as being repaired the movement movement itself as being you know the UFO well indeed look when you when the person is traumatized there that's something that the body does the body stiffens the body retracts the body constricts the body collapses into helplessness these are all things that the body does and in trauma or in shame what we need to help people do is find new bodily experiences that contradict those of shame and helplessness and and freezing and contracting and movement is a good Avenue for that now again it's not just movement but it's movement with awareness of the movement of finding really the inner movement and it's the inner movement that I believe takes people towards a reconnection with the authentic self and that's not the stuff that's not the ego that's not the ego the self in the ego with its small s it's the purposeful intention ality of the organism in its movement through life that is the authentic self you know I think it's really really important to teach it when we teach about inner movement and it took me a little while to understand what you meant and I hope when I feel like I do now but can you give a concrete the concrete example in a session of how you would distinguish inner movement for someone so we're having the session I'm sitting there and what would be an example well let me give an example of the way things used to be done for example in psychodrama or certain yes types of your stock so you'd be working with a client and they would be making some kind of a gesture and often the therapist would say well exaggerate that right and you would exaggerate it and now really exaggerate it and make some sounds now really really exaggerated so it goes towards a catharsis it is an escalation now for some instances it's a useful to help a person get in contact with their expressive emotive expressive feelings but what really takes people deeper is when they find out where that movement comes from on the inside and that's why proprioception and Keena stasis are so important in restoring the self because it's in those inner movements oh ok so instead of just clenching my fists and opening my fist and being really angry what's it feel like when I open and when I close and then when I open Wow that's interesting I feel my chest expanding right now so one sensation leads to another to another to another and that's what you find in the uncovering the discovery of the authentic self movements and there are movement systems for example that really focus more and more on the inner movement such as authentic movement that's even called authentic movement yeah I'm also thinking about inner movement in the sense of your concept of somatic experiencing of energy Wells and the energy being held in certain certain places and also in certain dimensions but saying certain parameters and I don't know how you want to explain energy those but I'm thinking about it again you got to give me like an hour at least yeah but I'm thinking about the connection between shame being a contracted state and the energy kind of contracting intensely and as we work with folks to unpack that chain that maybe act that importance of the energy Wells comes in because if people just sort of go from that very contracted state maybe I'm wrong maybe maybe you don't do that but to a very sort of like oh yeah I have all this pride that that might be too much of a jump in terms of energetically I never see that being very sustainable when people go from the one extreme of shame to the now sort of their polar opposite well I agree I tend to agree with people our strong opinions though I'll agree with you Harley back to your idea of energy well I think let's look at something maybe a little bit more simple okay the nervous system can only learn one small new thing at a time and if you try to learn too many things you try to teach a nervous system of body too many things all at once that they tend to interfere with each other and so in that way I think it's important to just take one little step at a time until it really becomes an embodied incorporated in the person's being in their nervous system in their development it makes a lot of sense a lot of sense I'm glad you clarified that I'm thinking about the work you did in Kosovo I believe you were in Kosovo burning well Croatian how I show you in Croatian and you were working with Tomi healing there and you've been working with vets coming back from Iraq and I wonder if Shane was something that showed up in the war in those those kinds of combat and you know post-conflict and if you know there was anything particular that stood out for you in terms of how you worked with those those populations yeah shame well many times shame comes up because people perceive that they weren't not only able to protect themselves but to protect their family and people from their villages and so forth so it often Shane comes in in that way and again in the military you're not supposed to need help and so if you feel helpless then very often Shane gets attached to that right because you're supposed to be strong you're not supposed to need other people's help but we do and and not own I mean we need each other's help when when we're in the battlefield right because and that's where we're most military folks are trained you you are you are family and everybody's everybody's life depends on everybody else being by their side and if something happens to somebody else often a lot of shame is experienced around that feeling the vulnerability of losing friends losing family right because it's family and it's just if you feel just so such sorrow and grief but because we're taught not to experian military we're taught not to have feelings because you don't want feelings on the battlefield that will only interfere with things that would only get in the way of your functioning but then because we're unable to feel them and process them shame tends to fill that that void there are no feedback technology is something they've been using with bets and people that have had trauma and so on and I'm just wondering what your senses in terms of being able to you to create new neural pathways for things like acceptance and worthiness belonging you know is it is it useful is it does it seem useful in terms of you know seating the new positive doesn't there a feedback seem useful feedback yeah I think so I think their feedback has a lot of potential and has been you know poorly utilized because again it's one of these things that's not accepted now on whatever it is random aside double-blind stuff but I think it's valuable I think is very valuable for kids who are ADHD and I think that that should be tried before giving them these heavy medications which many of these kids are on and in a way I see se as a form of neurofeedback because you're picking up a lot of the therapist is trained to pick up a lot of these very subtle shifts in the body and in the nervous system and you use that feedback but I think as a self-help tool neurofeedback is very useful it's a good it's it's a very good mindfulness enhancer people talk a lot of that mindfulness that is for shifting so many things including shame and I think you would probably agree that it's a very powerful tool but in this shame cycle that downward spiral cycle that we were talking about earlier sometimes mindfulness comes in too late right because the cognitive mind is kind of hijacked sure so in terms of how you would use or how you even think about using mindfulness with clients and it's particularly connected to shame with that be sort of pre and post you know like the shame that yeah well I think people are becoming more nuanced in mindfulness work mindfulness isn't just you know it's not like just meditating it really is becoming I think that should legitimate ly be called embody fulness as well because you know if all you do is be aware of what's going on but if it has to do with trauma and shame that's not going to change it just being aware is not enough you have to find ways to shift it and you know I was just presenting at a conference on mindfulness and compassion essentially and there were some of the really good people in mindfulness or their guy named Rick Rick Hanson and we had a really nice connection and I was really pleased I actually asked him a question during his lecture and then the next slide he was answering my question so we laughed about that and because again it's it's a you know I mean those of us are started working with the body in the 60s you know we're kind of glad to see then people are catching up yeah but I think it's it's now it's a point where where the body the body awareness is now becoming part of the whole mindfulness mindfulness understanding my final question really looks for the future and is kind of you know asking the question do we humans still need shape you know if as we as we evolve is our consciousness evolves and society evolves can we replace shame compassion and awareness or do we need you for accountability well okay in the ideal world all right where everybody is the Buddhists right sure we don't have any use for shame in the meantime that's a hard one right you think of a time when you you I mean you had an argument you did something it was really a little bit cruel to a friend and then you realize oh my gosh I'm sorry I apologize for that that's important and that shame that gets you to apologize now if you're totally aware of everything well you're not going to do that but in the real world we're doing it all the time and the question is whether we repair it and I think that's an important thing that people learn in in having a healthy relationship is the ability to to be vulnerable and to repair something that's done where you where you transgress on a person's dignity and I guess having compassion for the self when you when you've made that transformation that's where the compassion comes in myself that's right yeah I mean all compassion really begins with self compassion but we usually don't get to self compassion until we are able to feel compassion from somebody else or somebody that had compassion for us then we're able to kind of you know play the ins and outs of it and and be compassionate to others well you've shown so much compassion to the world here I mean your work is amazing and I'm so grateful for it every day of my life so yeah thank you for this time this interview is been really rich and formative and for the somatic experience in law okay gladly

Channel: Peter A. Levine

Views: 354,913

Keywords: Somatic Experiencing, Shame, Peter A Levine, Waking the Tiger, Interview, Caryn Scotto D'Luzia, embodiment, working with emotions, body psychotherapy, Interviews

Id: i2CN5nhmfxk

Length: 31min 10sec (1870 seconds)

Published: Wed Jun 10 2015