Pentagon leaders testify before House committee on 2025 defense budget

uh that the threats we face today are more complex and more formidable than at any point over the last 30 years uh they re each raised grave concerns about how China Russia Iran and North Korea are working together to reduce America's Global influence harm our alliances and undermine our national security Iran and North Korea are arming Russia with deadly effect in Ukraine and China's No Limits partnership with Russia is paying off for both countries Russia is getting critical economic assistance Rocket motors and micro Electronics from China Putin is using the assistance to keep his economy afloat and to produce the missiles aircraft and other Weaponry that is devastating Ukraine China is getting cheap oil and vital missile technology and enriched uranium from Russia Z is us is using the assistance to help his economy recover and to fuel his breathtaking buildup of space-based and nuclear weapons China is also buying over a million Bears of oil a day from Iran in defiance of Western sanctions the aot the Ayatollah is using the oil revenues to fund his nuclear Ambitions arm his terrorist proxies and launch an unprecedented and unjustified direct attack on Israel Putin Z Kim and the Ayatollah are testing The credibility of American deterrence and the strength of our alliances after witnessing the president's disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan and his hand ringing approach to providing lethal Aid to Ukraine uh they sense weakness in American resolve we can't leave them with that impression and we can't let them continue to get away with their malign actions we must restore American deterrence but to do so we need a budget that will enable that we need a budget that supports the rapid modernization of our military a budget that fully funds Readiness to ensure we can fight tonight and a budget that will improve the quality of life of our service members so we can recruit and retain the most least most lethal fighting force on the planet unfortunately this budget does not do those things the 1% increase is uh is it it proposes entirely is inadequate it actually is a 2% cut when you factor in inflation but this is the hand dealt To Us by the fiscal responsibility act that we all have responsibility uh for enacting as we move to mark up the fy2 NDA we will uh play that hand that was dealt us but we all need to understand the risk to our national security that this level of investment presents I look forward to hearing from our Witnesses about what this budget means for our military Readiness our modernization timeliness and our efforts to improve service member quality of life and most importantly what this budget means for our ability to deter our increasingly undeterred adversaries with that I yield to my friend and colleague the ranking member for any opening statement he may have thank you Mr chairman I want to welcome our Witnesses secretary Austin General Brown Mr McCord thank you for being here and thank you for your leadership in in very very difficult times I think the chairman laid it out fairly well it can be summed up as big threats and a tight budget uh and you have to figure out how to make that work but as the chairman noted we have that tight budget because that's what Congress passed and the president signed so we will have to find a way to live within it I think the you know National Security strategy lays out those threats quite well uh China Russia Iran North Korea and then various transnational terrorist groups all of which are causing you know challenges across the world I don't disagree with the Chairman's assessment of those challenges are how increasingly uh the problem is they are working together more and more um to coordinate those threats in a way that are deeply challenging we do want to hear today obviously about the the two specific hottest spots right now what's going on in Ukraine uh it is good that Congress finally pass the aid package to Ukraine uh the months of delay were very costly I would very be very interested in your uh military opinion about where the fight in Ukraine goes from here in Ukraine's ability to hold off the assaults that are coming from Russia in the Middle East uh the war rages on with a continual threat that it could spread um I want to compliment the administration and secretary Austin in particular chairman Brown for the work to try and contain that to work with our partners to work with our allies uh but that challenge continues and I think it is even more important um that President Biden continues his push to try to get human a humanitarian ceasefire in Gaza with the release of the hos hostages um I know the president has been negotiating that a number of terms have been put on the table Hamas has repeatedly refused to accept that I I I don't think we should stop trying to get to that humanitarian ceasefire going forward and to work to make sure that we get more Aid into Gaza I know that we have begun to uh build the pier uh to help get uh Aid in from the sea uh any and all efforts necessary must be put in place which I which I very much appreciate um in terms of dealing with the big threats on that tight budget I want to advance the idea two things one we need Partnerships and we need diplomacy um we cannot do it alone and we cannot fight everybody everywhere all at once we may not like a wide variety of things that these actors that we've talked about are doing we have to live in the same world that they do which means we have to talk to China yes at some point I believe we need to talk to Russia um we need to use our diplomatic skills in our Partnerships and alliances because one of things I'm really worried about is that Iran Russia China and the others they're beginning to build Partnerships they're beginning to undermine our economic might the chairman laid out how they are fighting back against our sanctions by working together we cannot alienate the entire world and still meet these threats we need the rest of the world on our side so I hope we will consider uh building on the Partnerships and diplomacy that we have used I think the Aus agreement is a great example the quad that we used um the 54 Nation partnership that was pulled together to help um Ukraine fight off Russia all those are good examples but we need to build on that lastly I just want to foot stop what the chairman said about Recruitment and Retention thank him um and thank the quality of life panel uh representative hoolahan representative bacon Le uh which is focused on making sure that we give our servicemen and women and their families everything they need and give them the support they are the backbone of our military without any question and they deserve our support with that I look forward to the testimony and I yield back thank you I thank the ranking member uh our Witnesses today are The Honorable Lloyd Austin Secretary of Defense General CQ Brown chairman of the Joint Chiefs accompanying the secretary and the chairman is The Honorable Mike McCord under Secretary of Defense he serves as the dod's Chief Financial Officer and is available answer questions no small job given uh that he's the Chief Financial Officer of the largest organization on the planet uh with that uh we will recognize our F first witness uh secretary Austin we'll start with you uh chairman Rogers ranking member Smith uh distinguished members of the committee uh thanks for the opportunity to testify in support of President Biden's proposed fiscal year 2025 budget for the Department of Defense pleased to be joined by our outstanding chairman of the Joint Chiefs General CQ Brown and by under secretary Mike McCord the Department's controller let me start by thanking this committee for all that you do to support the US military our troops and our military families as secretary I've always been Guided by three priorities defending our nation taking care of our families taking care of our people and succeeding through teamwork our budget request for fiscal year 2025 will advance all three of these priorities first the president's request will invest in Cutting Edge capabilities across all domains that includes $ 48.1 billion for Naval and ship building capabilities 62.1 billion doll to reinforce US Air dominance and $1 13 billion to bolster Army and Marine Corps combat capabilities our request will also provide $33.7 billion to strengthen our space architecture and $4.5 billion to develop and field Advanced cyber security tools it will Direct $ 49.2 billion to modernize and recapitalize all three legs of our nuclear Triad and it will sharpen our Tech Edge through a$ 167.5 billion investment in procurement and making child care more affordable and funding vital work to prevent sexual assault and suicide in the military and third this request will help the department further deepen our teamwork worldwide our network of allies and partners remains a strategic advantage that no competitor can match and you can see its power in our strengthening ties across the Indo Pacific in today's expanded and United NATO and in the 50 country Ukraine defense contact group that I convene our budget remains rooted in our 2022 National defense strategy our request positions the United States to tackle the Department's pacing challenge the People's Republic of China with confidence and urgency it will help meet the acute threat of Putin's increasingly aggressive Russia it will help us tackle the persistent dangers from Iran and its proxies it will help us take on threats from North Korea Global terrorist organizations and other malign actors and it will help us continue to deter aggression against the United States and our allies and partners and to Prevail in Conflict if necessary now today I want to underscore three key messages first even as our budget request abides by the mandatory caps set by the fiscal responsibility act it is aligned to our strategy we may tough but responsible decisions that prioritize near-term Readiness modernization of The Joint Force and support for our troops and their Families Our approach dials back some near-term modernization for programs not set to come online until the 2030s second we can only reach the goals of our strategy with your help and I'm truly grateful that Congress passed the fiscal year 2024 Appropriations in March and the single way that the single greatest way that Congress can support the department is to pass predictable sustained And Timely Appropriations my third and final message is that the price of US leadership is real but it is far lower than the price of US abdication as the president has said we are in a global struggle between democracy and autocracy and our security relies on American strength of purpose and that's why our budget request seeks to invest in American Security and in America's defense industrial base the same is true for the recently passed National Security Supplemental that will support our partners in is Israel Ukraine and Taiwan and make key Investments uh to increase submarine production in fact about $50 billion of this supplemental will flow through our defense industrial base creating good jobs good American jobs uh in more than 30 States so we're grateful for our partners in Congress who help help can you talk about us leadership when we're supporting genocide in Gaza committee will come to order secretary I'd like to formally request those in the audience cusing disruption to cease their actions immediately being US security I'm going to ask you to remove the disruptive persons it is illegal it is immoral it is disgusting the whole world is watching what we are doing in Gaza right now Secretary General you are supporting a genocide stop supporting genocide free apparently the protesters don't understand we don't have a Secretary General in this country uh with that Mr secretary you're recognized again uh thank you chairman um we're grateful for for our partners in Congress who help help us make the Investments needed to strengthen America's security uh through both a supplemental and the president's budget requests the US military is the most lethal fighting force on Earth and with your help we're going to keep it that way and I deeply appreciate your support for our mission and for our troops and I look forward to your questions thank you sir General Brown you're now recognized chairman Rogers ranking member Smith and distinguished members of the committee I'm honored to join secretary Austin and honorable Mike mccor to appear before you today on behalf of the Joint Force Department of Defense civilians and our families I want to thank Congress for your steadfast support and the opportunity to testify on the fiscal year 2025 defense budget request which reflects our shared commitment to National Security also want to thank you for passing the National Security Supplemental which provides vital support to our allies partners and our defense industrial base to counter aggression and strengthen our Joint Force capabilities and capacity in preparation for any future contingency the Global Security environment is increasingly complex the 2022 National defense strategy identifies five key challenges the People's Republic of China are pacing challenge continues its risky Behavior around the globe newly aggressive Russia with its unprovoked war against Ukraine The Reckless Iran who as we saw a few weeks ago attempts to escalate Regional uh conflict with unprecedented attacks and support of proxy forces it is stabilizing North Korea which threatens Regional security and violent extremist organizations which leverage and stability to advance their cost these challenges are interconnected which demands a strategic approach addressing the immediate threats while also preparing for future contingencies it requires all of us to operate with a sense of urgency days after becoming the chairman I laid out three expectations and my message to the Joint Force holding our war fighting skills has primis seen all we do modernizing and aggressively leading with new Concepts and approaches and trust is the foundation of our profession our military exists to fight and win our nation's Wars we train every day to ensure we are so good at what we do that we deter any adversary from engaging the US in Conflict this budget requests $147 billion to sustain Readiness and ensure the department can counter near-term threats we are also focused on better integrating our allies and partners in our planning and operations by investing in critical programs and suspend G just we will remain in recess until the disruptive individuals are removed from the chamber General you may proceed sure we are all focus on better integrating our allies and partners in our planning and operations by investing in critical programs and capability expanding security cooperation exercises training and interoperability our investments in Readiness ensure the Joint Force can respond with the calls while we are focused on Readiness for today it is critical to modernize and lead with new Concepts to prepare for tomorrow the department continues to invest in capability and capacity to outpace our competitors while transforming from costly Legacy platforms that are no long no longer relevant to the threat this budget strategically invests 167.5 billion in procurement underscoring our commitment to equip the Joint Force with unparallel combat capabilities across every domain this budget also invests 143.5 billion in research development tests and evaluation of future capabilities that will retain our strategic Edge finally this budget invests significantly in nuclear modernization digital Innovation multi-year procurement of critical Munitions and the strengthened defense industrial base with rapidly evolving threats and Technologies accelerating our modernization is crucial lastly trust is the Foundation of our profession The Joint Force must build upon and uphold the trust in each other trust with our families Trust of our elected leaders and Trust of our nation enhancing the quality of service and the quality of life of our Personnel is not just a moral obligation it's a strategic imperative this budget includes investments in quality of service efforts such as Advanced Training educational uh benefits and career development while also investing in quality of life projects like hous housing medical clinics and child care facilities as well as funding spouse employment initiatives enhanced Mental Health Resources and robust robust programs to combat sexual assault we must create an environment where all can reach their full potential trust that our Joint Force stands ready ready to defend our national interest ready to deter aggression and ready if necessary to fight and win our nation's Wars I thank you for your support and collaboration and our sure commitment to face the security challenges of today and prepare for tomorrow we are living in consequential times and there's no time to waste thank you and look forward to your questions thank you General I recognize myself for uh opening questions uh you've General I address this first question to you you talked about what the budget would do as we know we talked about this is a tight budget uh tell me what we can't do with this budget tell me about some of the tradeoffs that you've had to make uh as a result of this 1% increase well chairman I appreciate the question as the secretary highlight in his his opening uh remarks what we had to do is we focused on Readiness forur the near term and it uh as we did that there's some areas that we did not we like it not to modernize some capabilities that would deliver in later later into the 30s and so that's where uh uh where we had to uh address some of the uh shortfalls in this particular budget uh by making those those choices to focus for example for example give me an example of something that you that you defer uh I'd have to get you more more detail chairman but uh you as you look at the various capabilities and I would say say Munitions is a key one of those uh that we focus on as well as as we look at our ship building uh our our uh sub uh U industrial base as well um and uh air you know aircraft how's this how's this budget going to affect your training do you have a an idea about that well not not much because we actually did focus on our Readiness and and that's why the 147 to focus on our our Readiness um you know we are very uh capable Joint Force and using the capabilities we do have today while we would you know but pursue future modernization is where our focus is on Readiness today uh chairman okay I would ask this to both of you um I know you've got to be concerned about this growing cooperation that we're seeing between uh Russia China Iran and North Korea uh do you feel like that this budget adequately resources are ability to deter their organized and unified aggressive behavior in the coming years Mr secretary uh thanks chairman um the growing Nexus between uh the PRC Russia uh and uh and the dprk and Iran is uh is concerning and this is something that we are watching very closely um you know as we look at what Russia is doing because of the the damage that uh Ukraine inflicted on Russia's land Force Russia turned then to dprk for additional Munitions and uh and and in in the form of artillery Munitions and and missiles um Iran has provideed is providing uh Russia with drone U capability technology and actual drones themselves and that's made a difference in Russia's ability to uh to recover from uh from what the damage that the Ukraine that Ukraine has inflicted on it uh and then North Korea again uh it's becoming more confident because of its uh its uh affiliation with uh with Putin uh so this is very concerning something that we're going to have to watch something that we're going to have to make sure that we have the capability and capacity uh to work with our allies to uh to uh continue to deter and and and continue to promote uh peace and stability in each of the regions but to your point very concerning uh and something that uh U that we're going to have to stay on top of going forward so General Brown I I would Echo uh the secretary's comments about being very concerning and watching how uh uh these uh countries are working and somewhat interconnected uh by the same token what I have seen in the seven months tomorrow will be seven months I've been in the job um I've engaged uh about 170 times with uh counterparts my counterparts from around the world and and what I found is as the world has gotten more complex um our the work with our allies and partners has strengthened uh we watch how NATO is a a strength and NATO is is larger but as I engage with the you nations in Europe they're focused on the Indo Pacific and indopacific Nation are also a focus on Europe because all these are uh it's a global uh threat to all of us and uh you know that dialogue is definitely increased and I've seen that happen um in the jobs I've held as a seene leader when you talk to your counterpart Parts uh around the world what resources would they like to see us bring uh to the table as a part of that effort to combat or deter the behavior you just described well one what I would highlight is U they're concern about our Collective defense industrial base and bring in capability you know one thing I do find as I engage around the world is that us capability us equipment is highly desired and uh we've got to be able to uh provide that capability and equipment and uh those are the things that they are are keenly interested in they're also interested in our ability to inter uh work and be able to interoperate even when they have their own defense industrial base that they're also trying to increase as well um and so it's how we work together and to break down barriers um to be able to work uh across our Industries across our services or across our governments uh will be important thank you J I'll yielded ranking member uh thank you Mr chairman obviously ton of topics we could cover I just want to ask one one question and that is on Recruitment and Retention I know secretary Austin this has been particularly focus of your for some time uh can you update us on how we're doing obviously the pandemic was a huge challenge coming out of that there have been other challenges where are we at uh in your opinion on being able to recruit and retain uh the service members we need um you're right sir I um covid really caused us a significant problem in our inability to get into high schools and and uh work the uh the areas that uh we typically work uh for for recruiting um postco uh we have been able to uh uh to reverse those Trends get back into the high schools to to to advertise and uh in the right markets to reestablish contacts with centers of influence um each of the services has made a concerted effort to hire the right kinds of recruiters and put the right kinds of recruiters uh you know out there to to represent the the services and that's that's proving uh to be very very helpful uh as we look at where we are right now we see the curves beginning to bend uh and uh in in favor of uh of you know more prod more productivity uh I expect that uh Army Air Force Space force and the Marines will all um make Mission this year just based upon their forecast uh and I attribute that to their their hard work I mean they've been uh they've been doing a lot to uh to reverse these Trends uh and you know it's uh this is the tightest job market that uh that we've seen in a very very long time so uh there's a there's there are plenty of jobs for people to uh uh uh to have or to get and so this has been very competitive but I think the services are doing the right thing and uh and again I have to U attribute this to their hard work and their focus the senior leaders are focused on this in a major way and I talked to them about about this routinely on top of that retention is that the highest that it's that it's been uh in a very very long time and so when troops join us they want to stay with us and and a good part of that is because of what you continue to do to help us help resource us to provide for for them and their families thank you General Brown here thank you as the secretary highight we we do see a positive trend and uh since I've been the uh not only as a service Chief watching this and coming through covid and watching the numbers change but also as a chairman I've had a chance to sit down and U meet with uh uh recruiters from all of our services I've gone to one of our processing centers to take a look and ask questions about the things we can do um to increase the uh the throughput uh of our uh through our recruiting stations at the same time it's how we engage and one of the things when I talk about trust it's how we um that have served what inspired us to join and how we Inspire the Next Generation and how we engage and show all the opportunities um that are are available by serving in our uh in our force or serving uh the nation at large and so uh we we do see some positive Trends and I would also say the same thing with retention the numbers we're meting all our retention um and we're doing very well there um but we got to continue we can't rest on laurels and that's why the support of this committee and the Congress uh particularly as you look at the quality of life uh uh does play a role um because it plays a role not just for the member but it plays a role for their family as well absolutely thank you very much I yell back Mr chairman here I recogniz gentlemen from South Carolina Mr Wilson thank you very much Mr chairman and thank each of you for being here in your service on behalf of our country and to me it's so clear that the primary function of the national government is to do for us what we cannot do for ourselves and that's National Defense and so your service is more important than ever and uh putting that in the context too uh what we're talking about is deterrence of peace through strength and so uh what you're doing uh could not be more important and I particularly appreciate military service my uh I've have for sons who have served in Egypt Afghanistan uh in uh Iraq uh my Navy son uh the benefit of military service uh it's so exciting my uh son served as a Navy doctor in Naples I now have three grandchildren who speak perfectly Italian uh so I look at military service as uh opportunity uh to serve but opportunity for fulfilling fulfilling and meaningful life and so what you're doing and I'm so happy to hear about retention being good uh Mr secretary that's great uh putting that in perspective too uh I your service today is more important than ever uh it's been referred to uh and bipartisan uh with the terminology uh by uh ranking member Smith of uh Partnerships among uh adversaries um the leadership that we have uh with chairman Mike Rogers who stood up uh against the dictators and then your reference to authoritarians or autocrats against democracy I like to phrase it as dictators with rule of gun who are invading democracy's rule of law this is not a war that we chose this is a war that war criminal Putin chose on February 24 2022 when he invaded Ukraine and conducted mass mass murder this is another uh indication with the uh Invasion by Iran with its puppets of Hamas of Israel on October 7 and we need to do all we can to deter uh the Chinese Communist Party from an invasion of the ter ific country of Taiwan with all of this in mind uh o over and over again um we should be uh grateful and I uh am very happy General Brown that this week it's reported that finally that uh long range attacking have been provided to the people of Ukraine to defend their country uh provided by Germany the United Kingdom and now the US additionally I hope that cluster bombs are provided as quickly as possible like we have excess that need to be destroyed I know a way to destroy them and that is to send them to the people of Ukraine it's been reported that war Comm Putin is jamming various Precision Munitions causing lower accuracy rates for targeting than advertised and it's very important that we uh equip Ukraine with the latest technology with f-16s being provided to Ukraine by the Netherlands and Denmark will the department be considering to have joint air to Service uh soff missiles to be more advanced Precision fires of the f-16s in the delivery package to Ukraine General Brown well as we bring on the f-16s it's the uh not only the airplanes but it's the training of the uh the pilots also training of the mains but also bring sure we have the weapon system to go with it and that's part of the uh the conversation we're having with the countries that are not only contributing f-16s but as part of the Ukraine defense contact group there is an air force uh Coalition at the United States is part of and that is the dialogue that we're having to uh not only just get to the airplanes but also get it to a full capability and uh a good news secretary Austin in December Japan announced its transferring Patriot interceptors back to the US to replenish our stock piles earlier this month there was a joint statement with Japan the administration wants to pursue co-development and co-production of missiles for forward deploy in the indopacific uh this is great for the indopacific it really follows um indeed NATO coming together with now with Sweden and uh Finland uh the uh assistance by the EU of all people uh for the people of Ukraine uh for Europe but with the indopacific are there other examples of Defense cooperation agreements that can be pursued to deter the dictators who seek to destroy Western Civilization well thanks sir as you know uh we have uh done a lot of work to strengthen our relation ship with the r uh we have uh promoted a uh trilateral um relationship between the r Japan and us you as you witnessed uh months months ago president held a summit here in the United States with those the leadership of those three countries uh We've uh strengthened our relationship with with uh the Philippines and so now we're we have the ability to operate uh uh alongside the the Filipinos uh in more sites in the Philippines uh and three years ago the leadership was was going to disinvite us and and not allow us to operate in the Philippines but that relationship he Mr secretary my time is up but again it's exciting to see countries come together that we have not before from the Philippines to uh Sweden and Finland thank you very much Jim time inspired J not recognize Jim from Connecticut Mr Courtney thank you uh Mr chairman and thank you to both uh Witnesses for your diligent service and your uh testimony today Mr secretary one of the smartest actions which Congress and your department made was last year was enacting Aus authorities I want to particularly compliment your legislative team who worked with a number of us on the committee to successfully steer a very complex package into last year's ndaa as you laid out on page 16 of your testimony it's not just an aspirational plan Aus is moving out fast on many fronts for example I had the pleasure to welcome the first three Aussie naval officers to subschool at the Gren subbase in Connecticut where they learned Proficiency in the operation of nuclear powered submarines a key UST pillar one goal all three by the way graduated in the top five of their class and another 100 of their colleagues are going to be following in their footsteps Mr secretary having been on this committee for quite a while it was quite striking to me the amount of focus in your statement on the need to grow and strengthen our nation's defense industrial base on page 20 of your written testimony you highlighted the Department's publication last January the National Defense industrial strategy which was a first for the Department to its credit and that report honestly laid out warts and all all the painful history of neglect of that base which goes back decades and acknowledge particularly the damage that procurement instability from the Pentagon has done coming from a district with a submarine Shipyard that was decimated by such instability from 1990 to 2010 I could not agree more over the past 13 years however Congress has led the way to stabilize that yard and other yards and and their supply chains with steady two Virginia submarine per year procurement and the workforce has rebounded from a low of 9,000 to 23,000 today CO's pandemic did slow down production and it's undeniable that the recovering Pace needs to continue to pick up but I would note that Contra contrary to the narrative coming out of the department starting last fall of 2023 four submarines have been or will be delivered to the Navy by the end of 2024 USS rickover New Jersey Massachusetts and Iowa and Idaho and Arkansas are ated to be delivered in 2025 the supply chain has rebounded as well with congress's SI Investments going back to 2018 those Investments need to continue but so does procurement stability unfortunately the 2025 budget plan has injected unexpected new instability by cutting a sub a direct deviation from last year's fit up in the Navy's ship building plan and I I would argue is also contradicts the National Defense industrial strategy's warning about the need to maintain procurement stability as the Wall Street Journal powerfully noted us submarine technology is a crown jewel of America's military power and a true advantage over a rapidly expanding Chinese naval fleet buying only one boat is a terrible signal for capital investment and it tells adversaries that the US is not serious about rearming I don't totally buy that last comment but I would say that having been home since the budget came out I've talked to supply chain companies who are hitting the pause button on planned in Investments this has a real ripple effect when that signal shows instability one of the provisions of the OAS authorities was uh in the ndaa section 1352 is is something that I think is really at the center of what we did last year which is that it authorized the president of the United States to certify the sale of three Virginia class submarines starting in 2032 2035 and 2038 that president has to certify when that when that time comes that those sales are not going to degrade our own Fleet nobody in this room knows who the next who that President will be after the 2028 election but to me I want to make sure that that decision is as easy as possible to make sure that the goal of aus is going to be achieved cutting a sub from the inventory which is what this budget proposal unfortunately does in my opinion makes that decision harder we're going to work hard on this committee and my colle colleagues are already you know hard at work in terms of getting requests over to the Appropriations Committee we did it in 207 we did it in 2013 under the Obama Administration we did it in 2020 under the Trump Administration uh again I think it is so important for the the goal of aus which again I think is one of going to be one of your Hallmark achievements that we maintain procurement and we as I said you know make that decision uh in the early 2030s as early as possible I don't have a question for you today but uh again with that I'll yield back thank you Mr chairman thank the gentleman chair now recognize gentleman from Ohio Mr Turner secretary Austin General Brown um and U Mr cord thank you for being here uh thank you for your leadership uh secretary Austin I I know you are aware that last week um our ambassador to the United St to the United Nations um in conjunction with the Japanese uh brought forth a resolution to the UN Security Council uh asking for um All Nations to prevent a dangerous nuclear arm rce in outer space uh and to um uh calling for a prevention of a nuclear arms race in space this resolution was blocked um vetoed by Russia and abstained by China um secretary Austin um what would be the effect if a nuclear device was detonated today in outer space it would be it would have devastating uh consequences uh on a lot of our um capabilities uh in space not only our capabilities but the capabilities of uh of other countries uh and and so uh for that reason we think it's irresponsible for anybody to even consider uh deploying or and employing a nuclear device uh in space well Mr secretary um General Michael trout of the commander of Germany's military space command agrees with you he stated the worst case scenario of an indiscriminate nuclear blast blast in space radiating radiating out at a satellite frying electromagnetic pulse across low earth orbit would be devastating as you had said for everyone if somebody dares to explode a nuclear weapon in high atmosphere or even space this would be more or less the end of the usability of that Global Commons of orbit deploying a nuclear weapon in space would also be counter to the United Nations outer space Treaty of 1967 um in addition it would have catastrophic effects on civilian use of space and our commercial use of Space Mr secretary why would someone put a satellite in space that has nuclear capabilities to detonate a weapon in space as opposed to just use a missile or an ICBM to detonate a nuclear weapon in space certainly uh a device like that would have uh could have uh a much more extensive impact and cover more more uh ground for lack of a better term uh with one device than a uh an anti anti satellite uh uh weapon which is you directed towards a specific uh Target now this thing would uh would take away large swast of capability uh and as you pointed out not just uh our capability but uh but also allies and partners and uh and and and so um we don't really fully know or understand what uh what the full effects would be it would it would depend upon you know the yield of the weapon and the orbit that it was in and and all those things but uh but certainly what it wouldn't one of the reasons why they'd put it in space as opposed to shoot an ibmr missile is because um an ICBM missile could be attributed as a nucle weapons attack on a country and would have a a a nuclear weapons response that's right if it was a uh a an attack on on one of our terrestrial capabilities uh sure but it there's also they also have the opportunity or the ability to use a ground launch capability to attack a satellite and take out uh some capability on orbit Mr secretary uh John Plum the assistant secretary of defense for space policy told reporters on um April 5th that Washington was in discussions with Russia about the weapons plans an apparent confirmation that Moscow is at least engaging on the topic um is is Russia developing an an anti-satellite weapon with nuclear capabilities um certainly I I uh would not want to get into a discussion of uh intelligence U uh information and an open hearing but certainly we can we can have that discussion so Mr the reason why I ask you the question and the reason why you're stumbling is because the Biden Administration refused to declassify this information so we're not able to have an open public discussion but one thing I'm concerned about is that Mr secretary in your entire um written testimony you never mention anti-s satellites as a threat you certainly don't even mention nuclear weapons as a threat but the administration's moving forward trying to get the UN Security Council to take action I believe that this is a the Cuban Missile Crisis in space and this Administration is sleepwalking itself into an international crisis and I certainly want to encourage you to encourage the administration to declassify this and take every actions necessary to avoid this space race uh that could as the our ambassador to United Nations says be a nuclear weapon space race gentlem times expired here I recogniz as a gentleman from California Mr G Mindy uh thank you uh my colleague from Connecticut talked about cutting a sub uh we make choices here as you do at the Department of Defense also uh Mr secretary on December 9th 2022 you gave a speech where you said nuclear deterrence isn't just a numbers game and and that thinking can spur an arms race you stress the importance of working to reduce the global role of nuclear weapons which we just heard from our colleague and I happen to agree for years I've questioned the viability and the premise of the Sentinel program in December the Department of Defense announced that the ever escalating cost of the Sentinel program now estimated that at least 137 billion dollar had breached the critical non procur limit and that by law the program must be terminated unless you Mr secretary certify that the program is one essential to National Security two that there are no alternatives to the program three that the new cost estimates are reasonable and four that the program is a higher priority than programs whose funding must be reduced am I correct in saying that you are aware of your task that lies ahead I am sir I'm pleased to hear that because even without the required analysis by law that the Sentinel program far too many Pentagon leaders have said and I quote The Sentinel will be funded will make the trades Mr secretary can you assure us that you will require require that a truly fome and critical analysis of the Sentinel program will be made and that the alternatives for example a submarine will not be funded so that the Sentinel program can go ahead I I can assure you that uh we will um conduct a thorough analysis uh in accordance with the non mcer act responsibilities and the responsibilities that you've outl mind U um as well so thank you Mr secretary I believe you have until sometime in July to make that decision and along the course in early May or late may you will General Brown provide to the Committees the analysis required by law is that correct we will we'll we'll support the timeline to the secretary to uh make his determination uh in your opening remarks General Brown you said that quote our investment and nuclear capabilities reflects a judicious balance between advancing Cutting Edge Technologies and phasing out Legacy capabilities fourth grade math would indicate that at $700 million a copy $137 billion dollars can buy you somewhere more than 120 B21 bombers complete with an ISRO or perhaps seven Columbia class submarines for $137 billion choices to be made here is an attack submarine important is an additional 20 or so B21 bombers complete with an lsro important more important than a sentinel can the Minuteman 3 be life extended and by the way committee members why do we consistently write into the ndaa that there must be 400 icbms there's been no analysis to indicate that and as the joint requirements office oversight Council actually Revisited the military requirements necessary for the nuclear Enterprise has that been done General Brown that is part of their task is to continue not just on the nuclear portfolio but across all of our portfolios for um our joint War Fighters I await that analysis I yield back chair recognize a gentleman from Colorado Mr Lambert thank you Mr chairman uh secretary Austin your written testimony says that the fiscal year 25 budget invests in air and missile defense systems which will quote preserve our ability to deploy combat credible forces when needed unquote however the missile defense agency's budget you delivered to Congress was almost $1 billion below fiscal year 24 budget projections it canceled cut or delayed several munitions programs in fact the day after I protested these Cuts recently to the director of the missile defense agency Iran La launched a direct and Massive Attack on Israel that included over 100 ballistic missiles 30 cruise missiles and 150 attack drones yet we have limited stocks and we have allies and friends who are desperate for us to give them some of our limited stocks so why did the department choose these drastic cuts to missile defense at a time when we need it more than ever to protect our homeland and our allies and partners well thank you sir as we stated as I stated earlier uh because of the F uh we did have to make uh some choices and there were always tough choices uh and we recognize that uh that that uh we needed to invest in uh current Uh current Readiness and we put $147 billion request on the table to do that uh and um going forward uh we will uh invest in those things that we weren't able to invest in in this budget uh if we get support for an increased Top Line in the out your okay uh the chairman asked you both specifically to give an example of something that's been deferred and I've got one here I'd like to refer to the budget you've submitted also delays the Glide phase Interceptor this would be a defense against Hypersonic weapons until after 2035 that's 11 years from now and yet they have this capability today Russia and China both especially China so how is this meeting the threat of hypersonics when we have this threat staring at us today to to put it off till 2035 yeah again for those uh capabilities that those Investments that that wouldn't deliver capabilities until after 2030 uh for this current uh budget we decided to uh to not invest in that but uh invest in that in later years so well um thank you for clarifying that but I'm thinking we need to reexamine sure there sure there's a lot of priorities here but this is one we've got to reexamine um also changing gears to nuclear deterrence when the Biden Administration came into office one of its first acts was to offer an unconditional five-year extension on the new start treaty I believe this was a shortsighted gift to Vladimir Putin according to the state department Russia is now in its second consecutive year of viol ating the new start treaty and last year the Strategic posture commission a bipartisan uh committee composed of great experts published its report that described the current nuclear modernization program of record as being necessary but insufficient given China's breathtaking increase in nuclear capability uh General Brown I'll ask you this one so neither Russia or China are appearing at all interested and coming to the negotiating table and yet we now have the growth of a third nuclear superpower in the in this world so a new start treaty is probably going to expire in three years without being renewed by the Russia and the US what should we be doing to prepare for that eventuality thanks for the question and what I would say is uh what we need to do is not only think about the Treaty and I realiz that'll be policy makers but from my perspective as a as a chairman as a war fighter is making sure we are getting capability um in in our nuclear portfolio but also a conventional portfolio I sat down with the the Strategic posture commission we talked not only about our nuclear portfolio but also our conventional capabilities as well and what's really important to be able to do that is to uh have consistent funding uh consistent demand signal um to uh provide that that capability as we work with our defense industrial base and those are the things we'll need to do as secretary highlight right now we're focused on Rance based on the fiscal responsibility act uh but as we look to the out years we do need to focus on not only uh get you know identifying the capability but giving it consistent funding and then being able to accelerate that cap into the hands of our our war Fighters okay well well thank you both uh we are addressing some of the immediate needs right now I believe in a good way but we really need to look at these out years for what's going to be coming down uh later thank you Mr chairman are you back thank you gentleman chair I recognize a gentleman from New Jersey Mr nocross thank you chairman and to the witnesses for being here today and certainly for your service to our nation um in your opening remarks and quite often prior to this we talked about the American defense industrial base and certainly coming out of the pandemic and since then with the wars raging uh primarily in Ukraine we've seen the imbalance that we are having in industrial base that we have those risk in the supply production and the delivery uh and certainly you have started and we must have a what I would call more aggressive uh posture in order to build that up uh because not only does it need to be resilient and reliable it also needs to be affordable and certainly starting from behind the Finish Line uh building that up in a quick way is usually not the most efficient so to date and this would go to you secretary Austin is what has the department done from where we started a few years ago on this quick uh and immediate need to build up in particular our munition space could you elaborate on some of the steps we've taken yeah in order to maintain our Competitive Edge we're going to have to continue to invest uh in in Munitions uh and um and we we're doing that we've done that uh with your help as you know for the for 24 we asked you for uh a number of uh multi-year procurement authorities uh and you supported us with that request uh and uh over the last three years or so we've invested uh north of $75 billion in Munitions uh which uh and this I might add in a supplemental that uh that you just uh approved for us uh there there are resources in that supplemental that help uh that we that we apply to the uh industrial base and help them expand to increase their capacity to meet the current demand and the demand in the future uh so I want to thank you thank all the members for that uh but we we put a lot of work into uh working with industry leaders to you know to uh increase increased capacity increased capability and and again with your help uh that's uh that's been very effective now we also need to work with allies and partners uh to increase International capacity as well and my uh D my under secretary for acquisition and sustainment uh is leading the charge to work with other other countries uh to uh to promote uh them expanding their industrial base as well even after everything is all said and done as you know we're going to have to make sure we're producing enough capability uh to help help allies and partners who've dug deep uh in support of Ukraine and and and other things help them replenish their stocks after we've repl our stocks as well so well certainly appreciate that and sending the right signals to Industry so that they are prepared is incredibly important and that leads me to the next question the assessment and how we're going to manage at some point hopefully sooner than later that we are going to build not only our stocks up to the tune of 50 billion under the aid package but to help our allies and partners how are we going to send the correct signals to Industry that when we meet that it's just not going to drop off uh Mr Courtney talked about the submarine base of years ago and what happened that when we abruptly stopped how are we going to manage our munition base that we're building up now but when we backfill how are we going to handle that well it's some uh certainly something that uh that we are focused on and we will continue to work with with industry on um there's certainly when the when the demand uh shrinks a bit uh we have to be cognizant of the fact that we have to have a capability to rapidly expand uh if required now there the way that we produce Munitions the way that the way that we uh design production lines all of those things have to be taken into account maybe there are things that we can compress uh uh so that we can rapidly expand when called upon to do that but those are things that uh that we're taking a hard look at and uh um and industry has been very supportive uh thus far and we I expect that they'll be supportive going forward we got to send the right signal to them to to the point that you're making certainly uh and we also have to look at the reserved Munitions that we've had in the past and say is that adequate given the way that Ukraine and other areas of the world have really op operated in the last 6 months to two years uh certainly that is incredibly important and I yield back I think the gentleman chair not recognize a gentleman from Virginia Mr Whitman thank you Mr chairman I'd like to thank our Witnesses for joining us today thanks so much for your service to our nation General Brown I I want to discuss the cost and exchange ratios between our weapons and weapons of our adversaries you know I've talked all the time about the way we win this competition is we have to get more per our dollar than the Chinese get per their Yuan or the Russians get per their Ruble and unfortunately today that's not the case I know you've supported ccas and and and that sort of uh accumulation of mass where we can do quickly I think that is absolutely where we need to be I want to talk a little bit about the unit costs of where we are today the unit cost for an sm6 missile is $4 million the unit cost for Shahed 136 the kamakazi style drone that is being used by Iran against Israel being used by the Russians against Ukraine is $50,000 a copy I'm not a mathematician but this is not sustainable I want to show the other slide too where we talk about the annual production for sm6 missiles United States we build 125 sm6 missiles a year if you look at the production of Shahed 136 6,000 a year I'm not a mathematician but this math just doesn't add up there's no way that we can counter both in mass and in cost what we're seeing from our adversaries and this is in many other areas around the world and we've seen this this developing capability I want to make sure that we're doing more to do the right thing to counter these threats I want to know why does why does a joint staff using the joint requirements oversight Council continue to support Exquisite requirements in the face of these Expendable platforms that are adversaries are using listen we're going to go Winchester really fast not just on ammunition but also on money tell me tell me how are we getting to a point of where we are able to counter these class 3 uavs with mass and affordability well I I appreciate your question because I'm in the same spots you are and that's why I often talk about the uh we have to have capability in capacity it's one thing to have highend capability but limited capacity or low end capability with a lot of capacity and we've got to be able to balance across that and so the examples you used on the for the sm6 particularly and you look at the events that happen on the on the 13th of this months uh we used a combination of capabilities to include air to a missiles am9 am9 x's and A1 120s uh and so we got to have a range of capabilities in addition to non-kinetic capability directed energy uh and so that's where my focus is as a chairman and uh I I am very much focused with the Jrock that to change that perspective to ensure that we are not just focus Fus on this high-end capability but we focus on a range of capabilities to sure we have uh uh uh many opportunities and options um that are cost- effective against the uh the threat very good thank you secretary Austin President Biden has said in the past that we will defend Taiwan if they are attacked by China in your estimation do we have the capability and capacity today to adequately equip our forces to pursue this mission of Defending Taiwan our our uh our military is the most powerful military on the planet uh and not only do uh do we have more capability than anyone else we in in terms of the ability to uh to use uh what we have on hand and to integrate uh fires and to and to maneuver responsibly uh and effectively we also work with allies and partners and increase their capability as well you've seen us do that pretty effectively uh in the in the indopacific thus far and we continue to build upon that AAS was mentioned earlier this is a a uh an incredible capability that's uh that's a GameChanger and uh and it will certainly add to uh to the overall uh deterrence in in the theater uh but there are a number of examples like that throughout so let let me drill down a little bit further when we look at what we're going to face in that theater we're going to be operating in a highly cont environment which means we have to be able to reach Chinese assets at long range in order to degrade that environment to a contestant environment where we have a much much better Advantage tell me where are we with magazine depth and capability and capacity currently with long range Precision strike Weaponry in that theater well we we uh again I think when you look at uh at our capability I think we're we're in a pretty good place we never have uh every everything that we want but certainly it's it's the mix of capabilities that's that's important here uh and uh and that's our goal to make sure that we have the right mix of capabilities to to ensure that we can be effective gent's time expired here not recognized gentleman from California Mr Connor Thank you Mr chair thank you to the witnesses for your service to our nation president CC of Egypt has said that an invasion of Rafa would have catastrophic consequences both for the humanitarian situation and for broader Regional peace and security president abas has said quote it would be the biggest catastrophe in the Palestinian people's history and yet this morning I read that prime minister Netanyahu is saying with or without a hostage deal he plans to go in to Rafa Mr secretary we're the greatest nation in the world we're the most powerful nation in the world this is not a time for vague ambiguity will you please commit today and send a clear message to Mr Netanyahu that he should not go in to Rafa what we have emphasized uh throughout uh is that we they must do um what's necessary to protect the civilians in in the battle space a much better job of what we've seen thus far and as you know there are uh north of a million U civilians that have moved into that space that if they if you're going to conduct operations then then those civilians must be accounted for and hopefully moved out of moved out of the area uh and uh and certainly we if if they were going to conduct operations we want to see a different approach uh to those operations as well uh but uh thus far we've not seen uh the civilians moved out of the battle space uh and uh and again what they have said is that uh their operations will be sequential where they uh account and account for the civilians and move the civilians out of Harm's Way uh before they would uh let me ask you this Mr is there would you oppose it if you don't see a plan if tomorrow he goes in without a plan would you oppose that of course I would and would there be consequences in that case if Netanyahu goes in without a plan the consequences of course that that would be determined by the president would it be on the table to stop offensive weapons if he did that again those that's determined by the president what would your military advice if you did that I'll never share my military advice that I give to the president with uh with anyone so let me ask this though you would you would certainly oppose it without a plan do you in your years and I you know how much respect I have for you and your service do you really believe that there is a conceivable plan of evacuation that would save civilian lives and allow Netanyahu to go into Rafa could you come up with such a plan I could and and uh but it it takes time time and uh and and of course uh we we see some signs that uh that that they are moving towards that direction uh but in terms of uh all of the things that need to come that need to take place before uh you know an attack happens now we've not seen um a number of things that we believe that that will have to happen before what are those things that you think need to happen in terms of a plan that would give you confidence that civilian would be protected and they have a plan uh the question is can you execute are you executing the plan and and how much time are you allocating for what are the mo main concerns you have of what you've either the lack of plan or lack of execution that lack of execution and what what what would be the spec specifics of what you would want to see that they're not doing today uh making Pro Provisions for the uh for the civilians wherever you direct them to do do you have sustainment uh uh in that area um you know do you have the ability to to move them from where they are now to uh to wherever you're going to direct them to uh and then are you willing to protect them as you do that so uh you know the the housing the uh uh the medical care all that stuff that that uh needs to be in place um you know we we've seen some signs that uh that some of that's coming together but uh but clearly not enough where would they move these million people too so you're saying before they go into Rafa they would need to move all the million people out of Rafa who are civilians I I doubt that they'll move all of them out but certainly the propep preponderance of the people are sure and they can only go north and I let my times almost expire but there two 300,000 left I mean do you have a sense if they were to go in how many debts civilian debts we're talking about or I mean if they were to go in well there have been far too many deaths civilian deaths already uh and uh we certainly uh if they were to go in we certainly would want to see uh things done in a much different way uh and and the number of Civilian deaths would would depend upon what they're doing and how they're doing it uh but again um the two things aren't gentleman time expired chair and I recognize gentlem from Georgia Mr Scott thank you Mr chairman I asked unanimous cons unanimous consent to submit for the record an article from Financial Times dated April 28th 201 24 without objection so ordered titled Western banks in Russia paid 800 million euro in taxes at the Kremlin last year figures represent a four-fold increase on pre-war levels and come as profits jump at European lenders still in the country and uh Mr McCord I know you've gotten away without questions but since your degree is economics and M with a masters in public policy and we'll come to you with part of this um in this article one of the paragraphs reads Western lenders have benefited from the imposition of sanctions on most of the Russian financial sector which has denied access to the Swift International interbank payment system that made International Banks a financial life line between Moscow and the West secretary Austin when you uh started you said this a choice between democracy and autocracy I agree with you 100% um Russia has faced sanctions from the us and our European allies uh those stions have in many ways been ignored uh India has certainly bought oil from them skirting sanctions and and we talk about China we expect that from China uh I would have hoped that India would have supported um democracy a little better than they have uh my question secretary McCord is um how to the Department of Defense and US inter agency partners and the militaries of our European allies coordinate to ensure the sanctions enforcement and how does Ukraine win if the sanctions are not enforced and Russia's economy is allowed to continue to grow uh Mr Scott I would say from the start the administration's approach on Ukraine has been emphasized in agency Treasury and state in particular have the lead on on some of the items you mentioned export controls and sanctions but we we have between military assistance you know security assistance economic consistence humanitarian export controls and and sanctions applied that whole government approach uh you're citing I think some of the if you will human nature problems that you have of incentives around the world to to try and evade these uh for for individualized gain perhaps but I know that uh treasury in particular has worked hard to uh to to have a have a effective regime on the front I'm half my time's gone Mr mord I appreciate your answer I I I respectfully disagree with you I think that the Biden Administration could have could have done more to enforce the sanctions and I think that our European Partners could have done more to enforce the sanctions and I think that if Russia's economy was not growing then Russia would not have been able to reconstitute its military and its military industrial base the way they would have and and and it would not be costing uh the ukrainians what it is in in in people and it would not be costing the world what it is in in support financially and with weapons if the sanctions had been enforced uh General General Brown what is the impact on the battle space when sanctions are not enforced well you know not being incress with being a war fighter uh I think the key part I would to highlight to you is the uh uh access to capability on on either side and uh that can determine the uh the outcome of a military conflict the the qu quantity and the quality of the weapons that your opponent has because of the money they have is is that a safe answer that's a fair statement that's my concern with the sanctions not being en forced not just by the Biden Administration but by our European Partners as well um do you have the necessary authorities to take military action against the shadow Fleet uh of vessels that's illegally transporting Russian oil and and and funding Vladimir Putin's War that that is not something that we are from an authority standpoint that we are uh as a military um focused on right now I mean we've been focused on supporting Ukraine um and we work uh closely with the agency on how we identify uh to address uh uh I have I have a tremendous amount of respect for you General Brown and and you too as well secretary Austin but I will tell you supporting Ukraine means defeating Vladimir Putin in Russia and if we're going to De defeat Vladimir Putin in Russia then we have to do two things one is we have to enforce the sanctions so that his economy will fail and he cannot continue to to reconstitute his military and build the weapons that he is and Supply the weapons that he is and and the other thing is we've got to be willing to punch him back inside Russian territory and so when I see uh a Biden Administration that won't enforce the sanctions and our European allies not enforcing the sanctions and then when Ukraine hits Russia in Russia B saying please don't do that anymore T not recognized gent from Massachusetts Mr KY thank you Mr chairman I want to thank our uh country's leaders in defense for their service uh eight days ago uh I was in uh at the Polish uh Ukraine border visiting with our 8C Airborne who were doing uh a logistical job that no other country in the world uh could do uh and thank them for their service seven days ago I spent nearly an hour in ke with president zalinski uh during that time we had a far-reaching conversation but time and time again the uh the most important thing he hammered in to all of us there's only four of us bipartisan group but uh was the need for air defense you know in Ukraine they have an air defense in keev their second largest city was getting pummeled as we sat there harke uh with major attacks uh he thanked us for uh the supplementary package but can you tell us what uh we're able to do to help Ukraine's air defense the resilient country they're producing their own armaments in the midst of a war uh but what can we do to improve that uh air defense well certainly thanks sir and first of all thanks for uh for visiting and uh and thanks for your support uh and along with all your colleagues to get uh to get the supplemental approved that uh that was a big measure of assurance to uh to our our colleagues there in uh in Ukraine and to uh our our allies in uh in NATO um so as you know um I I convene some 50 countries uh every month to talk about uh uh how we're going to continue to provide uh uh security assistance to Ukraine at scale and speed uh air defense has been has long been one of the things that we have emphasized over over and over again when people were talking about other capabilities we continue to emphasize that this is what Ukraine needs most and that's playing itself out to be true we watch Russia uh continue to launch missiles that have been supplied by uh by you know um North Korea drones that have been supplied by I'm sorry to interrupt by do we have the assets uh in place that you know Patriots missile systems in particular uh among that 56 member group group to to do more in immediate sense there are countries that have Patriots and so what what we're doing is continuing to engage those countries I have uh talked to the leaders of several countries uh you know myself here in the last two weeks uh encouraging them to uh to give up more capability or provide more capability and uh and so we're going to stay with us uh and and you know I talk to the Minister of Defense uh of Ukraine every week uh and so you he he is clearly aware of what what we're doing engaging others and looking around the world to try to get additional capability but will you have our commitment and my commitment as I talk to our Alli leaders which I do several of them every week in my two capacities in committees so I'll continue to emphasize to them the importance of doing that too one other quick question you just to exp expand a little bit on what representative Conor had just said uh few people in the world I think know as much as you do uh about uh the difficulties and challenges of urban Warfare uh uh I think I believe you have and I know the president has talked about lessons learned that we've learned as a country ourselves uh you you talked about some of the military logistical issues can you just briefly in the short time here there are other issues too in Lessons Learned uh in those types uh of warfare situations uh and they affect the civilian population too can you just briefly tell us what you've learned it's clearly one of the lessons that we've learned is is that uh you you have to make sure you're doing uh all you can to uh protect uh civilians uh and and because if you don't then uh then uh you'll create a longer term problem for yourself as uh as some of those civilians then then turn against you in the future and and so uh We've emphasized that a number of times to our colleagues and and continue to do so and I talked I talked to to uh my counterpart in uh in Israel on a weekly basis we've talked some 40 times since uh 40 plus times since uh October 7th and these are things that we continue to hammer home but I I think it's an imperative yeah and I must say uh your constant uh efforts all through this uh given the fact you overcame some of your own health issues is really extraordinary and I want to thank you for that and now you back Che not recognize gentlemen from Tennessee Dr dejar thank you chairman I thank the witnesses for their service and appearing here today uh General Brown has the need for landbased leg of the nuclear Tri Triad decreased since the decision was made in 2014 to recapitalize the ICBM Fleet uh no it is not okay um since that time China has undertaken what multiple stratcom commanders have described as breathtaking expansion of their nuclear Aral including a massive investment in Silo based icbms do you think that that strengthens the case for modernizing our ICBM Fleet uh it does and I I would say just uh when you think about a complete nuclear portfolio not only icbms but also with our uh our uh Maritime based uh capabilities but also our bombers all those play a role uh particular when you think about the aspect of uh not only you have a PRC that's advancing but you also have uh Russia uh as a uh nuclear a threat as well okay so to be clear it's your best military advice that we'll need an ICBM capability for the foreseeable future is that correct it is because that that it's all part of the Triad and each part of the Triad actually plays a key role to ensure that we're able to uh not only our strategic detur but the extended detur it provides for uh our allies and partners as well good thank you secretary Austin I agree with your sentiments that Ukraine is morally right in its resistance against Vladimir Putin and the Russian army however I don't think that alone should guarantee United States assistance to carry on this fight in perpetuity without any clear coherent plan or strategy and these feelings are shared by my constituents in Tennessee and I think their frustration is building as the question of what the endgame is here continues to go unanswered can you help us today describe how things are going to turn out better in in the upcoming eight months we're over two years into this War uh We've contributed a lot of money we've just approved another 61 billion how do you see this playing out over the next six or eight months yeah we thank you sir and thanks for your support uh with the supplemental um we've been clear from the very beginning that what we want to see is a democratic independent and Sovereign Ukraine that has the means to defend itself uh and uh and deter aggression uh going forward now there are some things uh in in the immediate term that I believe believe that Ukraine needs to needs to be able to do one is to maintain access to uh to the Black Sea uh because um as you've seen here recently they have uh they have managed to continue to export grain uh uh you know using a Black Sea Quarter U they also have to defend uh in the in the north and east where uh we see Russia mounting uh in uh increased uh small attacks and and probably uh maybe are looking to mount a larger attack in the north and east that's their industrial base so they have to they have to support that and then and then the third thing I think uh they need to do is is to uh Place additional pressure on Crimea as you know Crimea Russia is using Crimea as a u as kind of a Transit Zone to to push up um supplies and uh and Personnel in supported their efforts in southern Ukraine and Eastern Ukraine so uh again our overall goal is to make sure that Ukraine at the end of the day remains a democratic independent and Sovereign uh state that can defend itself okay and that doesn't really answer the question as far as the strategy maybe I didn't ask it directly enough but I mean as far as an endgame do we see a peace settlement do we see outright Victory how long will it be before they come back to the well we just did 61 billion uh you know there's been a lot more prior to that uh what can we tell people I mean the president actually did try to explain this a little bit last week in response to the aid package he was on TV or at least a visible press conference where he tried to describe it we've been imploring the dod and the administration to tell the American people why this is so important why this investment is there so what is in your opinion the endgame timeline when will it be needing more money and you know what's Victory look like as is the case with most uh conflicts as this type it ends in with some sort of uh uh negotiation uh and U and again uh if that happens when that happens uh we want Ukraine to be in the best possible position to be able to to achieve uh its goals uh and and negotiate uh uh for for the right things uh it it's up to Ukraine when that happens uh and and and what they what they choose to uh to agree to or not to uh our goal is to make sure that they have the security assistance to be able to uh continue their fight to protect their Sovereign territory gentlemen time expired chair not recognizes a gent lady from Michigan Miss lutkin hi Mr secretary chairman um Mike good to see you all um uh I'm I want to ask a question a little bit different than my peers um that comes from a a looking forward at threats um Mr secretary um you know your job as the secretary is to deal with everything that's going on in the world and it's it's messy right now but also Al to look at Future threats um and I want to put on the table um this idea that the United States is poised to let in a huge flood of Chinese electric vehicles into the United States in the European Union they let in their first Chinese EV in 2021 they now have almost 25% market share so all the cameras light detection um lar excuse me radar data collection cameras all the stuff that we have concerns about even putting on our military vehicles right Chinese origin um equipment we would never put on our military vehicles are now poised to be flooded into the United States driving around everywhere collecting data on our military bases on our key infrastructure um as someone who develops our war plans on other states you can imagine how interesting that data might be to adversaries um so I I have a few questions I asked similar ones to the Secretary of the army when she was here um they're not gotcha questions I'm just I'm a CIA officer who was trying to process um that we you know were concerned about data you know who owns the data of a thing like Tik Tock and the idea of a fleet of vehicles coming into the United States collecting all this data that's housed and handled by the Chinese Communist Party really bothers me um as a national security issue so but just a series of questions they're not gotcha questions they're just legitimately you know would we want a potential adversary to have high fidelity 3D maps of every military base and installation in the country we would definitely not want that would we want a potential adversary to have high fidelity maps of infrastructure such as power plants ports highways and bridges absolutely not would we want any potential adversary to hack into ground vehicles and PR pilot it remotely or disable a vehicle in the United States no would we want a potential adversary to be cut conducting cyber Espionage collecting sensitive intelligence through any phone or Bluetooth enabled device on a ground vehicle no okay you you you get my point here I think the the thing that I'm concerned about um is that um the United States we're a free market economy we value that we're good capitalists um but in today's day and age some of the most dangerous collection goes on through commercial means and obviously I'm from Michigan you don't have to guess why I'm asking about this um um because we are making the American Vehicles where the data is housed here um we asked for a report from the Department of Defense a year ago about the National Security implications of Chinese connected Vehicles we have not gotten that report um I know your your um Congressional Affairs people are behind you I'd ask that we actually see that report because this is about preventing future threats not just dealing with the admitted mess that we have around the world um um changing gear um uh I just have to ask we had General Cilla the head of centcom here in front of our committee a few weeks ago and I asked him as one of our most decorated officers who got shot three times in mosul has served in Iraq has served in tough places what is the military strategy for Rafa can you articulate the Israeli military strategy for going into Rafa I I'd have to let the Israelis articulate that strategy have they provided it to you um we've we've gotten uh some Concepts but uh in terms of detailed plan okay so no we haven't gotten the military plan for the the pier that's being set up as I understand it as many as a thousand us uniformed officers are going to be involved in setting up that Pier a smaller number will be resident there if we are shot at if more artillery um is shot at us who is responding and with what um operating procedures is that military responding yeah I've uh Joe Brown and I have spent uh quite a bit of time with uh General Killa working through our our Force protection plan and I'm confident that uh he's put the right measures in place will the Israelis be responding if the United States is shot at Israelis uh will will provide uh additional Security in the area that's right I I just think given the differences I think we have with the Israelis on civilian casualties we better better be get right clear about what the response is going to be when we are shot at since I don't think many Americans feel that it reflects the same values that we have here thanks very much ladies times expired here I recognize gentleman from Florida Mr Gates let's stay on the same subject Miss lockin just said there'll be about a thousand US service members operating a pure system off of Gaza how many of them will have guns Mr secretary well typically all of the deployed service member carry service members carry guns and they have the ability to protect themselves if if challenged so if someone from land in Gaza shoots at our service members who are on the $320 million Pier that we're building you're telling me our service members can shoot back they they have the they have the right to uh to return fire to protect themselves now well do we think that's like so now I want to move to the likelihood that you think someone from land and Gaza might shoot at our service members on this pier do you think that that's a likely scenario that's possible yes this is a very telling moment Mr secretary because you've said something that's quite possible that could happen right shots from Gaza on our service members and then the response our armed service members shooting live fire into Gaza that is a possible outcome here so that we can become the port authority and run this pier right uh that's correct you I I expect that we will always have the ability on the ground President Biden told the country that we weren't going to have boots on the ground in Gaza and we won't okay but you guys parse the distinction between like when Americans think boots on the ground they think American In Harm's Way or engaged actively in a conflict you guys seem to be sort of um saying that boots on a pier connected to the ground connected to service members shooting into Gaza doesn't count as boots on the ground it it does not I think you're going to find the American people have a different perspective on that and if we're going to have people shooting into Gaza we probably should have a vote on that pursu into our War Powers but I want to bring us now closer to home and the F-35 program is the F35 program a failure no it's uh so let's go over how much does an F35 cost well it depends on the variant but uh 100 million sayfe safe to say 100 million a copy okay so we just had the Air Force in here and I said what percentage of these f-35s are fully Mission capable and they said 29% do you have any basis to disagree with that assessment I don't have any basis to disagree with secretary so at a 100 million a copy 29% being fully Mission capable does that seem low to you it's a complex airframe and and again um there are a number of reasons why a platform could be uh not operational any one given time but right but I mean said that it is a it is probably it is one of the best aircraft in the inventory the best aircraft in the inventory well Mr secretary uh there's a GAO report that takes a very different view Mr chairman I seek unanimous consent to enter the GAO report entitled F35 sustainment cost will continue to rise while planned use and availability have decreased without objection so ordered it reads cost to sustain the F-35 Fleet keep increasing from 1.1 trillion in 2018 to 1.58 trillion in 2023 yet DOD plans to fly the F35 less than originally estimated partly because of reliability issues with the aircraft the f-35's ability to perform its Mission has also trended downward over the last five years is there any of that in the GAO report that you disagree with uh I don't no okay so how many hundred million paper weights do we own I I would not categorize the F35 as a paper weight well if if it's not Mission capable if it's what what do we just stare at it and admire it we we continue to work to make sure that we uh we get our aircraft operational and continue to uh and I don't know don't you think that 100 million to clip more than 29% should be fully operational and if the fact that we can't get them operational you know you know what secretary Kendall said when he was sitting in that chair he said the core roote of the problem is that we had let Lockheed Martin build this thing and then we gave Lockheed Martin the full system performance contract and they keep buing us according to the GAO and we sit around staring at aund million airplane that can't fully perform the mission and you're sitting here telling me it's it's not a failure just own up to it Mr secretary just say this airframe has not delivered it's too costly it's not it's not being utilized as we should and we should never again make make the mistake of doing a full system performance contract with the very person who built the aircraft could we agree to that I agree in the future we should take a we should have a different approach I'm sure the secretary also the committe things that he was doing toach quite quickly gentleman's times expired let me uh give people our situation awareness votes have been called there is a series of nine votes uh six Amendment votes or two minutes uh my plan is to continue you for about another 15 minutes before we recess and then come back at the conclusion of the votes the walk off time will be 12:30 uh with that chair I recognize a gentleman from Massachusetts Mr Molton thanks Mr chairman Mr Secor you said your budget priorities are near-term Readiness modernization and support for troops and families those absolutely seem like the right priorities for me uh chairman you've famously said quote accelerate change or lose and of course you're talking about our pacing China a pacing challenge China primarily but Mr secretary you also explained that your budget quote dials back some modernization now how is that compatible with accelerate change or lose so those platforms that won't deliver capability before 2030 are the ones that uh we chose not to invest in in this budget now we recognize that we will invest in those uh those programs in the out years uh and that'll require an increase in the Top Line Mr chairman most of this committee is in wholehearted agreement that this budget is inadequate but why would you delay modernization rather than following the lead of the Marine core and just cutting old systems many of which are big and expensive to maintain well that's uh that's part of the dialogue we have with uh with our Congress and that's the challenge that I see in some cases where uh and it as we look at the capabilities that we have to have today at the same time the uh as we transform the force to the Future and uh balancing between the two and that's where their focus has been um uh across the force this is an area that we got to continue to have dialogue of the things that we were willing to let go of so we can actually invest in and modernize in the future well I I have no doubt that this is your uh philosophy I question whether it is really the focus across the force I mean I think with the exception of the Marine Corps and and a a bit of credit is due to the Air Force as well here there's been a real reluctance to divest of old platforms I mean I asked this question of army leadership just last week I said give me an example of one old platform that you're cutting to make R room for modernization and the secretary of the army used the future EC connaissance attack aircraft a future capability she's talking about cutting a future capability can you give me Mr secretary just a couple of examples of old weapon systems that are big and expensive to maintain that the Army is cutting to make room for modernization well certainly uh Ian if you had the secretary of the army here and to speak to that I'm sure that what she told you uh is is accurate so I don't I don't want to I won't challenge that but there are things like older artillery platforms like uh the uh M 7 uh that we provide it to uh uh to Ukraine that we no longer uh uh use in our in our inventory to the extent that we were before that uh that we are you know that we're moving out of the inventory but some of these things that are no longer uh useful for the Army are useful to us in the next fight uh in uh as far as the arm is concerned we're able to transition those uh those items to uh uh to Partners and and allies who who need that kind of capability well let's do that I mean let's sell them let's get some money right but we've got to make money in our budget for modernization because if if we don't accelerate change accelerate not just change at the rate that we're changing right now but accelerate change we are not going to be able to keep up with China and Mr secr I just want to be clear you are endorsing the secretary of the Army's response to my question name an old system you're cutting when she named a future system that you've chosen not to invest in no I I the reason I said what I said was I I I really don't know the full context of but but to to your point that is a future system and not a not a system that we would typically look to divest of the systems that we want to divest uh are the systems that are too too expensive to uh to upgrade to modernize or are no longer re relevant in the future fight now I mean we we we live in a world where $5,000 drones can destroy $5 million tanks now I'm not saying there's never going to be a use for a tank again but we're still building a lot of Tanks Poland has just agreed to purchase a whole bunch of Tanks I don't know what what nation they plan to invade with these largely offensive weapons but that doesn't seem like a very wise investment for us or our allies so I would just encourage you I know there are a lot of tank supporters in Congress there are a lot of F35 supporters in Congress but you've got to come to us with tough Cuts because coming here and just saying we can't modernize is not acceptable replicator is a good example of a of a revolutionary change but when they came before the committee I asked them you know you Ukraine is innovating a lot on drones just tell me when is replicator program with rgdp going to catch up with Ukraine that has 7% of our GDP and they said at the present Pace we're not we can't beat China at that rate gentlemen's times expired CH I recognize gentleman from Nebraska Mr bacon thank you chairman Rogers and thank you to all three of you for being here today I want congratulate General Brown on becoming chairman we were Colonels together one stars and base commanders in Europe so congratulations uh my first question is to secretary Austin concerning the Ukrainian Aid is it the administration's plan to send longrange atacam uh to Ukraine I hope I hope hope it's yes we we have already done that sir already done it so but the the intention is to keep sending more well we we will provide as much capability as we as we can okay I think that we we want to ensure that we're sending difference makers they are not feeding into the gridlock from my from my perspective uh General Brown want to talk about nuclear survivability you know for 29 years we flew the Looking Glass 24 hours a day with a general on board that could take over our nuclear forces of the White House the Pentagon or Stat compet in 1990 we stopped flying that mission and had it on a ground alert primarily we think the threats are back to what they used to be uh with what with the behavior of Russia and the behavior of China and now we have weapons that can strike Us in 15 minutes so we think it's even more imperative to have this capability what are the plans to to bolster our nuclear command control survivability this is a uh uh representative it's a ongoing conversation about how we uh uh Advance our our nuclear commanding control and maintain that nuclear commanding control in the uh in the environment we're operating in today uh particularly against a threat I would also say as the you advanced technology there's also opportunities to change that approach as as well and so that's where our our Focus areas are of as we look at the combined joint all de command and control how that also feeds into our our new commanded control as well I know there's alternative ways to to provide that same capability but my impression has been this has been under discussion for years now I think at some point we need to resolve it and have a plan so that we can and it's not really for us it's for Russia and China to know that no matter what they do they can't catch us asleep and can't decapitate us and so it seems to me that we should have a plan soon because I just feel like this has been an ongoing discussion of what we could should be doing uh so I just want to submit that to you back to you secretary Austin on Taiwan deterrent starts today and I'm under the impression we're being told that there's a huge backlog of weapons that we owe owe Taiwan one one report was 20 billion what are we doing to expedite getting these weapons to T Taiwan well I stood up a tiger team uh to address this issue uh as soon as uh we came on board to figure out what the nature of the backlogs were was and then uh what are the things that we can do to work through those backlogs and uh and and get this capability to Taiwan and others quite frankly as quickly as possible uh they came up with a number of insights uh that task force still exists by the way and uh and my challenge to them is to continue to work through U challenges and uh and obstacles to make sure that we're moving as as rapidly as possible as you know sir there are a number of things that go into this equation you know industry uh uh industrial issues and challenges um you know you name it but uh but again I think we have been able to to to move some things forward a bit faster but this work needs to continue uh continue on we're going to reduce the backlog I can't predict to you what exactly when that's going to be but I think uh you know it's uh is a thing that we'll stay focused on so yeah day one of the war is too late and we just know the best way to stop it is sea mines Harpoon missiles long-range ER fence and so I think you know obviously it's imperative that we expedite uh those deliveries my last thing I would like to point out to secretary Austin or at least discuss we put a a 31 recommendations together improve quality of life in the military one of them was a targeted pay rise for E1 through E4 and some of the leaders in OSD not saying yourself push back on that saying the pay is adequate but yet we have good evidence that many of our Junior lists are on food stamps relying on food banks and we just think we got to do better and there was an article that came out today or was yesterday that fast food restaurants are paying more than our e4s are getting who are who are not married so we we hoped that we'll have your support uh for a targeted pay rise for E1 through E4 and with like 15 seconds left would you care to comment well I want to thank you for the support that you've given us uh today you know I asked you for a 4.6% pay raise uh for the forest in 23 you supported us in uh in 24 the the budget that was just appropriated uh we asked you for 5.2% pay raise uh you supported us for that that's time expired not recognizes G lady from New Jersey my intent is to recognize gentle from New Jersey and the gentleman from Indiana and then we will recess till about 12:35 M thank you Mr chairman and uh Mr Secretary General Brown thank you for coming today um I'd like to start off because in February I went with a h codell to Rafa in part to see what was going on because of the concerns over the building humanitarian crisis in Gaza um we then went to see Netanyahu and I I said to him at that time that there was a growing humanitarian crisis which he needed to address urgently um I encouraged him to open up arz the arz crossing to get more humanitarian Aid into Gaza he did not address this in any marked way until the world Central Kitchen bombing in April at that time he did begin to address it but still not nearly enough to stop the ongoing crisis moving into famine in certain parts of Israel so part of National Security memorandum 20's requirement is that the dod weigh in on Israel certification that they are addressing this humanitarian crisis and that's coming up in a little bit over a week as I understand it um Mr secretary can you tell me about your conversations with the Israel um your discussions about our values and why this is critical and what the response has been well a point I make frequently with uh my counterpart uh and uh and and encourage them to do what's uh everything that they possibly can to protect the civilians in the battle space and use uh weapons uh appropriately now this is a professional military and my my expectation and the expectation of our government is that uh you know they they do in fact do that uh so this is again a to answer your question a conversation that we frequently have and uh and again um we'll continue to have those conversations because it's really important uh in terms of uh you know the uh you know our our assessment the assessment that's upcoming as you know state is working on that assessment and uh I'll confer with uh with secretary blinkin at some point uh but uh but we've not had that uh that conversation yet so and along the same topic um we continue to hear Netanyahu say he's invading Rafa the president continues to push back against that there still seems to me to be no viable option for a humanitarian Corridor even a place to receive the 1.4 million people in Rafa right now with tents or humanitarian Aid certainly the vetting process alone while Netanyahu suggested it would take him two weeks to do I I don't think any of our military would suggest that that is enough time can you talk about any discussions you've had with the Israelis regarding Rafa and if you what you believe their War plan there is right now again I you know emphasized a number of times that that uh they must do what's necessary to uh to take care of these civilians that are not not combatants and and move them out of the battle space and and take care of them wherever you move them to uh and and you have to uh allow sufficient time to do that appropriately and and we've had that conversation a number of times uh I have seen some seen them do put some things in place but you and I know that there's a lot more that needs to be done before um you know um we can say that they've accounted for these civilians and and and taken care of um I've also asked them to uh to do things sequentially so that must be the first thing that must be done before they consider any other any other military operations so thank you and then changing topic um you know I've I've grown increasingly concerned because we've seen some of the Supreme Court cases on abortion and recently one of those has been in tala the emergency medical treatment and Labor Act um and title 10 does not cover that title 10 does not cover what mtala calls stabilizing care for our civilian facilities meaning it's not just the health it's not just the life of the mother it's the health of the mother I remain concerned that our service when women um are not being given the opportunity or the protections of their health and that means that in these hospitals their reproductive organs are not protected so in other words they the doctors are not required to give them treatment um simply to preserve their ability to have children in the future um have you looked into this and uh are we taking any further um steps to protect our service women and give them better reproductive healthare now we we've not uh the reproductive Health Care policy that uh that we have in place does not uh specifically address the issue that you raised but uh it it's a valid issue for sure I would recommend you get her an answer for the record because we got to go to Mr Banks G A times expired gentleman from Indiana is recognized General Brown according to the blue star fam's 2023 annual survey of military families trust in the military is down to the lowest in that it's been in 20 years down sharply nearly 20% since President Biden took office the poll also says that only 32% of military families would recommend service to a relative that's down 55% since 2016 the national independent panel on military service and Readiness poll says that 68% of active military members have witnessed the politization of the military and the Reagan Institute poll in November of 2022 says that only 48% Americans had a quote a great deal of trust in the military down from 70% in 2018 what what do you attribute that to I appreciate the question and uh uh you know I don't sure what I attribute it to um but one of the things I'm focused on and I highlighted in my my message to the Joint Force is trust is the foundation our profession and what I'm focused on is as a uh as a chairman is that uh our trust goes through our members to their families our look at leadership and to the nation you would agree those are disappointing numbers startling uh if they are true fact I I will tell you that uh um you know as a senior military officer I want the nation to trust us and when I see numbers like that uh it is uh disappointing and my goal and is to leave by example General Milly testified in this room that quote I want to understand white rage what is it that caus thousands of people to assault this building and try to overturn the Constitution of the United States what do you think he meant by that and was it appropriate I I don't know what he meant by it was it appropriate uh you know I'm not going to comment on it General Millie confirmed that he secretly called speaker Pelosi about President Trump's mental Fitness and nuclear command Authority do you think that's acceptable conduct of someone in your position well I'll tell you in my position what I what I will continue to do is provide to professional military ADV would you ever be open to a call with speaker Johnson about President Biden's mental Fitness I I'm going to when I talk to speaker Johnson I'll talking about the things that tied to be apprpriate though would it someone in your position I I'd focus on providing military advis General mil Millie told his AE that President Trump was preaching quote the gospel of the furer do you think it's okay for the chairman of the Joint Chiefs to compare the commander-in-chief to Hitler well in my position uh I I would really yes or no General that no is that appropriate it's not appropriate General Millie testified uh in a question to me that he quote does interviews regularly with print media books documentaries videos on TV because quote it is a part of a senior official's job do you agree that talking that frequently to the media is part of your job do you talk regularly off the Record to book authors I since I've been in position I haven't talked to a book author I do talk to the media author okay General Millie testified to the Senate that he talks to the media quote two three four times a week and that it is quote very important to make sure that senior officials talk to the media do you talk to the media four times a week uh not quite that frequently no during his farewell address in reference to president Trump General Millie said quote we don't take an oath to a wannabe dictator do you think it's acceptable to cause the current commander and chief a one be dictator I I choose my words wisely it's not appropriate is it to call the commander-in-chief I want to be dictator your term ends on o in October of 2027 there's a presidential election coming up the current president might win the former president might win um that that's why this that's why this matters and the the politization of the military is something that I think all Americans care deeply about because it contributes to that decline in the public public trust it contributes to that historic recruitment crisis that we find ourselves in today and I'm just curious General I've always wanted to ask you how can we repair the Damage Done by your predecessor who has a who will always have a reputation as perhaps the most political General that's ever sat in the position that you sit in today well what I'll focus on is uh you know leading by example uh knowing and following the uh what's expected of us as as military members and staying true to my oath I think it's really important thank you I yeld back I thank the gentlemen uh as I said earlier we will now recess for votes uh my plan is is we walk off the floor at 12:30 we'll reconvene approximately 12:40 e e

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Length: 116min 0sec (6960 seconds)

Published: Tue Apr 30 2024