Paula Vennells was 'lying' about Post Office scandal, claims forensic accountant

and affirm declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give that the evidence I shall give shall be now in its third year the post office public inquiry hearing testimony on a daily basis of lives ruined I hadn't stolen any money so why am I paying something that I haven't stolen the day of sentencing the judge accused me of stealing from old age pensioners Tracy fell said at the inquiry which is probing what's been called the greatest Carriage of Justice in British history the sub postmaster was only 19 when she was wrongly convicted of theft and sent to prison for six months one of thousands of lives damaged the inquiry has given us a window into the heart of the Scandal and tonight we can open it a little further what did the post office Executives know and when it's been revealed that the inquiry now has 80 covertly recorded audio tapes of senior post office Executives during this Scandal tonight Channel 4 News can reveal some of the contents of what was said by Susan kryon the then post office senior lawyer the post office had called in forensic accountants in 2012 to investigate the Scandal a year later those accountants issue their first report and meetings are called which are covertly recorded at one the post office lawyer is worried about MPS in Parliament who are campaigning to clear the names of the sub postmasters we've obtained a summary of some of the tapes Susan the post office lawyer refers to Paula Paula venel the post office boss having a meeting with James R bunot an MP tomorrow at 10:30 a.m. and then Susan reports that Paula was concerned to shut down the MPS there is also a record here of senior post office staff wishing to in some way control Alan Bates and his campaign on behalf of the sub post Masters Justice for sub postmasters Alliance as well as MPS Susan the post office lawyer talks about managing the justice for sub postmasters Alliance and then again Susan asks if there is any way of shutting down the MP's cases what's meant by shutting down isn't explained we approached both women for comment Paul venel declined Susan kryon didn't respond but what about the other people in the room also on tape the forensic accountant second site called in by the post office to investigate the Scandal we asked second site's co-director Ian Henderson what he made of the summary of the tapes the significance is it was yet another attempt by post office to prevent these matters being uncovered uh James ALB and a small group of MPS um were determined however that second site should be allowed to investigate these matters post office did not want these matters to see the light of day and to be investigated that's the same post office of course who called in second site in the first place to investigate this whole Scandal and the more they investigated the more they found that the problem was in the technology the post office was using not the sub postmasters at all the post office would end up severing its contract with second s there is more the summary of the covert recordings also show second s's co-director Ron warmington failing to get Vital Information from the post office Ron says we haven't received adequate information in any of the cases other than Alan bates's own case Ron says that in 15 out of 31 cases that we've received through the office of James Arnot we have in effect nothing so no investigative work can realistically commence then a possible reason for holding back information is on the summary it comes again from the post office senior lawyer Susan kryon secretly recorded Susan has formed the view already notified to Second site the forensic investigators further cases should not go through the second site process but rather through a post office limited managed process with senior oversight we put this to Susan kryon and Paula venel Paula venel declined to comment Susan kryon didn't respond Angela nice to meet you here to help the recent ITV drama featured the key second site post office investigation the drama matches the fact that its team remains angry about ordinary lives ruined two years after second site warned the post office that prosecutions could be unsafe and two years after the post office's own lawyers warned them as well Paul lenel the post office CEO said this to a select committee of MPS in 2015 and if there had been any miscarriages of Justice it would have been really important to me in the post office that that we actually surface those um and and as the investigations have gone through so far we've had no evidence of that and as you'll know we're Bound by the disclosure act to make known anything that we come across that that might contribute to that you're sitting next to Paul lenel in the select committee and she is saying there is no evidence of miscarriages of Justice at that moment what went through your mind she's lying to the select committee yes misleading Parliament misleading Parliament you've no doubt of that no doubt whatsoever and her motives would be cover up covering out what the truth coming out the truth being the truth being the problems with um Fujitsu the problems with the Horizon the fact that post office had known about it for many years and did very little about about it and were able to recover losses directly from sub postmasters we put that opinion to Paula venel she declined to comment when the inquiry started 2 years ago venel said she was truly sorry for the suffering caused to wrongly prosecuted sub poost Masters and their families she fully supports the inquiry adding that because it's still ongoing it would be inappropriate to comment but in the notorious case of sub postmaster Joe Hamilton we know the post office had evidence that her prose ution may not be safe years before Paul lenel said that to Parliament here's the investigation report into Joe Hamilton carried out by the post office marked confidential having analyzed The Horizon printouts and accounting documentation I was unable to find any evidence of theft or that the cash figures had been deliberately inflated yet Joe Hamilton would be charged all the same this report was sent to the post office in 2006 that's 9 years years before Paula venel told MPS the post office had no evidence of miscarriages of Justice simply one piece of evidence of many the post office declined to comment saying it fully supports the public inquiry as Joe Hamilton has told the world the post office very clearly new and new for years but that was not what it told Parliament or the post Masters themselves Alex Thompson there well the former labor MP now Lord bunot who's campaigned on the horizon Scandal for years joins me now from Westminster um a conservative MP I beg you pardon um Lord of bunner when they're talking about shutting down MPS they're talking about shutting you down aren't they they are clearly and trying to shut down Alan Bates and the justice for sub postmasters Alliance they had already let's not forget shut down the post sub postmasters Union the national feder Federation of sub postmasters by paying for the whole of that Union and as a result the sub postmasters got no help at all from their own Union but it's interesting isn't it because MPS are supposed to be treated with respect they're supposed to be listened to they're supposed to be able to Lobby on behalf of their constituents and they were trying to shut you down yes um because Second Sight were getting too close to the truth and the truth was very damaging for the post office so they were trying to get rid of us Troublesome MPS as quickly as they could they were trying to kill off the Scandal weren't they yes they were as Ian Henderson has just said they were trying to cover the whole thing up and it is always the cover up that makes things much much worse which is why Paula vel's said in her evidence to the select committee something that was simply not true well exactly I mean Ian Henderson is is perhaps Bolder or less polite he's quite clear he says when he heard her say that there was no evidence of miscarriage of Justice she was lying yes he's in no doubt about that do you agree I do it's quite clear the post office had instructed its own insurers two years before she said that to the select committee that there was a risk that there were miscarriages of Justice am I to believe that that didn't get to the chief executive I'm not um so clearly the post office was lying to the uh to the select committee and I wrote to the speaker two or three years ago to say that that lie had been told and that evidence needed to be and that something needed to be done about it it is getting worse and worse exactly on that point about something needs to be done it is a very serious issue isn't it to lie to Parliament to lie to MPS at a select committee very very so what happens now well I think it is time that the police began to operate with rather more speed and uh and Effectiveness than they so far have it's now three years since Mr Justice Fraser referred two people to the police for uh investigation into possible perjury in front of the courts but I think that uh we mustn't wait for the post office in quiry to produce its results I think the police should be acting now on the basis of what we know right now that there's no need to wait for the inquiry criminal prosecutions criminal investigations should be ongoing yes the post postmasters deserve that Justice is visited on those who did them so much wrong as quickly as Justice was visited on the postmasters themselves I mean one of the other bits of the information in the film really just asking you in terms of your source of personal involvement was your constituent Joe Hamilton you know the information in the film shows that there was no evidence of theft it was written down but they prosecuted her anyway that is well known it'll be well known to you but I wonder does it still have the ability to shock you what is being uncovered at the moment the ground that we're going over now this is a story of profound corrupt at an organization owned by and overseen by the government I think it is deeply shocking yes Lord of bnot thank you so much for talking to us this evening thank you

Channel: Channel 4 News

Views: 730,062

Keywords: post office, fujitsu, patterson, paul patterson, horizon, post office scandal, post office inquiry, mr bates, mr bates vs the post office, postmasters, sub postmasters postmasters scandal, post office workers, alan bates, IT software, channel 4 news, c4 news

Id: dYYHi2CP7x8

Length: 11min 44sec (704 seconds)

Published: Tue Jan 23 2024