Paul Tripp, Timothy Lane, and Ryan Kelly -- Panel Discussion (Session 6)

well I'm gonna ask Paul and Tim if they'll join me up here we get to sit down in these comfy seats here I'd think that we what I thought you'd go longer than that that was actually pretty easy and simple could have been much more painful if you refused to come up for a long time you said come we said no works well you guys have given us some great questions and more than we will be able to get to and part of that is volume of questions a part of it is also the kind of questions that came in with this kind of topic a lot of questions come in that are very situational very contextual here's my story here's the scenario we won't answer those kind of questions but here's what we'd like to do we would like to answer your questions that won't get answered today in another format so if you asked a question that didn't get answered you won't get an expert like Paul tripper Timothy Lane answering it for you but thankfully but we at Desert Springs would love to answer it for you we don't know who wrote in what question write names won't put to them and our contact information so you'll need to submit it again if you want your question answered and we don't answer it here today you can email us at info at Cesar Springs Church org and one of our pastors will get back with you either with a phone call or email to talk to you about it and it and try to understand what's going on especially if it's one of those kind of questions that's situational so let me ask you guys why not answer questions that are situational that that it's someone's story it's a scenario why is that less than ideal to to answer that in this kind of format you know I I'm very aware that a conference with the topic that we have been dealing with will draw up out of people those kinds of questions that there we live in a fallen world we live as flawed people in a fallen world God's grace hasn't completed its work with us yet and I'm very aware that there are people who have been listening who are facing hard things and as Tim was saying they're not general they're specific there concrete yet there are so many details that we don't know and would we know those details we may have a very very different way of responding to the question I actually think that it it honors the importance of those situations not to cheapen them by a quick answer in a situation like this we love you we we know that what you're going through is real and sometimes hard and we want to honor the importance of those things by not acting like we know things that we don't know I've I found in council I know Tim would agree with this we're in the beginning I think I have a bead on things and as I hear the story I have a completely different response and so we want to be careful yeah okay good all right so Tim what do we call this thing that we're after this weekend we've called it one another ring it's a bit of a made-up word the Puritans called it in every member ministry but can we just brainstorm different ways of putting this yeah I mean I I think of it as interpersonal ministry I often talk about how we should be traffic trafficking if you will in gospel conversations and I like to qualify that by telling people I'm not asking them to put their relationships on steroids and do all kinds of unnatural wacky things you know to try to force Jesus into the conversation but we're how many how many of us here have two or three people that really know us well that know what our struggles are what our strengths are what our weaknesses are what our current circumstances are what we've been through where we're growing ways that they can encourage us that's that's the level of fellowship Koinonia shared life together I think that we're after so you can come up with probably two dozen ways of describing that but but that's that's an initial way that I like to think about it Paul's actually have three so you have three well I was gonna let them come up with the first two and then you fill out the next but if I could just respond I I think that that what we've developed over this this weekend out of God's Word is just a biblical definition of friendship this is the kind of friendship that God has called us to sadly much of what we call friendship just isn't really that by biblical definition I mean I would argue that most of the people that we say we know we don't actually know we know a husband who's attached to a wife and we know the kids that belong to them but the interior of their story you know the where they struggle with temptation or where they feel alone or overburdened or there tend to question the goodness of God we don't know any of that stuff because we don't really have friendship that exists at that level and so I'm not I'm not stepping out of friendship into this weird uncomfortable ministry thing it really is this this kind of friend God has called me to be and the ultimate example of that is Jesus who is a friend of sinners and I would say that we would argue that this has got to be organic you know I don't know if it was your brother not that said something like you know I don't spend quantity time with my kids I spend quality time and he he just kind of deconstructs that you have to spend quantity time with people in order for it to get to the level of quality that it needs to be and and it's got to be organic and it's a real challenge in our in our society in our culture to have those kinds of friendships because we're so busy we're so active people are transitioning from place to place we're distracted by all kinds of forms of wonderful entertainment I love all of them I engage in all of them but you know we allow them sometimes to get in the way of building these these rich friendships and I think we have to also be realistic I can't have rich relationships with 300 people but but do I have a core you know around me and I think of them in terms of my coven ental responsibilities if I'm married that's the first relationship that's important my kids next my church my neighborhood my community you know those coven ental connections kind of help govern where am i developing these meaningful relationships and and how many can i realistically have at this particular stage of life season of life and I would add it's it's worth asking the question what set of values determines the way I spend my time and it's it's I find that a very convicting question I mean it's it's possible for me because I tend to be one of those project oriented people to load so much in my life and my schedule that I have little time left to do this thing called relationship relationship takes investment it takes work it takes time and so what happens is I fall into the pattern of trying to squeeze a hundred dollar conversation into a dime moment it doesn't work because I'm cranked up because I want to get this out and the person that I'm trying to talk to feels that energy so they get a bit defensive and it just becomes a mess well that's the result that I've loaded my life with so many things I just don't have time to do this thing of maintaining relationships keeping them healthy enjoying the good things that God has called us to the really beautiful good things yeah but you can you can buy sort of the American Dream and all that it entails and have little time for this much more important much more beautiful thing are we saying this is just Christian to Christian and it is irrelevant this thing called church the church is optional or maybe it's a good place to hook up and these Christian to Christian relationships what's the relationship between church and these things that we're talking about the way that I think about that is that is that preaching is incredibly important because it is the formative discipline of the church it forms the formative found we're trying to get everybody going in the same direction everybody understanding the same same things everybody writing on the same tracks what personal ministry does is take that formative foundation and it it offers it it in corrective discipline that that what I we do generally in preaching we can now do a specificity in the life of this particular person so so personal ministry needs preaching because that's where the foundation is laid for people a way of thinking about themselves and thinking about life personal ministry then takes that and and applies it to everyday life so they're the complementary you you need a church that's healthy in both areas yeah I think the the the church is a place where you are being brought into covenant --all relationships with one another there's a commitment I'm you know we're called in Hebrews to obey and submit to leaders and we're to commit to one another there are these there there's this covenant whole relationship that we shares brothers and sisters in the body of Christ so that membership yeah I think I mean it works itself out in this concept of I'm a member of this particular body I'm a member of the broader body of Christ but I'm going to invest my time and energies here you know what I'm gonna do it through all the vicissitudes and ups and downs of whether or not I like what the church is doing now I know we have bigger questions you know when do you move to another church but I've been in church for 12 years at since I left the pastor it my family's gone there and over the 12 years they're probably I don't know 200 300 800 things that I haven't liked about what's been going on in the church I think I'm probably in a normal church you know and it's it's not big stuff I mean so it's a good Bible base good theologically oriented place but I've made a commitment and I don't let me get too technical here but I do think the sacraments of Baptism and the Lord's Supper are helpful for us the sacrament of baptism believe there's an end we'll call to believe but be baptized what does it mean to be baptized you're being incorporated there are a lot of spiritual images there about being cleansed and all but it's also incorporation into a new community and the Lord's Supper is discern the body of the Lord that's not just me thinking about all right am I am i living rightly before the Lord but there's also that corporate dimension as I come to the Lord's table because in chapter 10 of first Corinthians 11 first corinthians paul says we are one loaf in Christ so as I discerned by the Lord I'm coming to the Lord's table regularly saying what are my relationships like in this local body so yeah there is there's definitely church membership commitment fouls that one take to to live your life and persevere in the context of relationships even when you don't like what's going on all the time the way that I think about membership is it's a localized and concrete way that I give myself commit myself to the larger work of God's kingdom what does it mean to seek God's kingdom here's what it means I give myself to the work of his church I submit myself to the leadership of his church I commit myself to the Ministry of the church it's all very specific concrete verses this general kind of thing you know where we sing in a kumbaya moment and then we go out and put another thousand dollars on our credit card which means we can't contribute to the church because you know this is a way of making it specific and concrete why wouldn't you associate yourself with a solid Bible believing ministry committed local church expose yourself to it's ministry give yourself to its ministry that's seeking God's kingdom yeah okay to put these two together then time spent right you said relationships require time you can't microwave them down to a minute or something and in membership or you know officially overtly committing to a local church that means that membership in church life can't be sitting in the back coming in late sitting back sneaking out during the last song and thinking that there's my church and church life right so can you talk about that what's it look like then to be in a church I mean specifically what's it look like to be in a church and establish these relationships can you give some examples that ways in which it's different than sitting in the back and attending church like you attend the movies yeah when I when I used to pastor I used to we had a new members class people that were interested in becoming members of the church and I would say you know here here's a bar this is like the low end bar in terms of you being involved and committed in this church you're you're you're in you're involving yourself in corporate worship there's a place where in a smaller context you're being known and you're getting to know and then you're you're in some way learning how to serve and use your gifts for the good of others so that right there is is the low bar but that's that's essential for what it looks like to begin to live your life out in community within the context of this particular local church so I think there's a there's a critical difference between attending a church and giving myself to the minister of the church what-what given myself to the ministry of church means I'm going to expose myself to the ministry of others that means I want to be known I'm not afraid of being known I think being known is a grace and then I give myself to ministry to others so I want to know others because I'm not the Messiah I can't minister to that which I do not know so that's what means knowing others and so it's not that I'm attending something it's that I'm part of that something I'm an organic part of what that something does it's very different from just showing up on Sunday yeah okay so when is it right to leave a church then because you know I hear a lot of good encouragement for commitment and staying with it even if you have 800 complaints over a decade so someone wrote in I'm in a church that has a deep-seated culture of self-righteousness in legalism so I keep on forbearing or is it time to go well I'm way too righteous to be involved with a self-righteous Church I can't even answer the question I can't even imagine you tried you're trying to get your head around that one Arden I see struggling I feel like I entered a vortex and he just did you open the door imagine so we told him if he got us up here on stage at some point this thing would would ya something we're gonna something what happened I would like to repeat the question how about you Jim you know I actually think that that question is probably very similar to an individual asking a more complex counseling question okay I'm I mean there's some good books that people could read on hey here's some things to think about I I think in our our culture and I don't think I mean saying anything new that we are typically more consumer-driven when it comes to church we're there to see what we can get out of it and it you know that that's got to be challenged initially and I think what Paul says and what I was saying in terms of here's a bar that's got to be in place but we we have to we have to commit and we have to understand that as soon as I enter into a local church I've just added one more Center to the mix and how I process whether or not I should continue in this church is a little bit more complicated and I think we could we could understand I will say this I don't think that a single church is the right Church for every single person and you can legitimately leave a good Church well to go to another church because of its emphasis and strengths and your gifts and and those are our valid things to do and it can be done in a very godly way yeah and I would add to that if if there are things happening in a church that are disobedient to the call of God first church or that distort the gospel of Jesus Christ then I next ask the question Who am I in this church am i at a place where I can engage leadership and conversation I can affect change or not if I can't then then probably I should move on second thing I would say is in a way that's very very important ministry is all about trust it it may be my issue but at some point if if I'm sitting in the pew as it were and I can't trust the person upfront it can't work now maybe I'm saying I I need to deal with this but I'm not doing that well that's an unhealthy place to be because I need to be fed I need to be able to receive and so I think what we're saying is this issue is not always clear it's it's messy we're not called in the New Testament to give ourselves to a church and never ever leave but one thing you know for sure if you've been in a situation where you've been webbed into ministry where you're receiving the good things of the gospel you're part of what God is doing in the lives of others and that's because you've experienced knowledgeable relationships a solid worship if if you leave it's gonna be a while before you replicate that you may be in a new church but you're not gonna have those knowledgeable relationships right away you're not going to be webbed into ministry what right away you ought to seriously consider the impact of that it could be a decade before you would replicate what you so quickly left ya in by and large today there's this consumeristic mentality like you talked about the may see if ocation yeah Church and people leave too quickly oftentimes right yea or wrongly you know maybe a good and godly way to leave begins with talking to an elder or pastor yeah I always appreciate it as a pastor when a a couple or a family would come to me and say hey here's what's been going on we're thinking about moving over to this church we really like what you're doing here but we feel like this is a better fit for us and I would say bless you go go and go in peace and I hope flourish and continue to grow in Christ this this church that I pastor is one of millions of churches in the world I don't expect my church to minister to every single person on the planet you know another thing I think could be helpful and it's something that I've I've done I'm in a situation where I'm not in leadership in a church I'm involved with the church and there are times when I have to go to somebody else who's mature who's sitting there next to me in the pew and say here's what I'm thinking here's I'm seen am i right am i hearing this right have I misunderstood something because this is a theme of mine you don't actually make those decisions based on the facts you make those decisions based on your particular interpretation of the facts that's all human beings operating and so you may have missed something your interpretation may be wrong it may be valuable talking to a mature person who's sitting down there with you are and maybe you'll realize that you've just you've just misinterpreted things Paul our pastors Q&A luncheon on Friday just a few pastors here in town you drew something on the board of concentric circles related to layers of leadership and responsibilities and the church really it's a how word ministry should be pervasive in the church could you just lay that out without having a dry erase board behind you can you just leave if you can follow this I I drew this picture of these these concentric circles in the inner circle is the pastoral staff the next circle would be elders and deacons the next circle would be ministry leaders the outside circle would be everybody in the church you want everybody to be committed to the Ministry of the church you want everybody to be knowledge and trained in the ways of the gospel now what this means is these guys in the center because everybody's being trained won't be just over whelmed with ministry because they're trying to shoulder the whole Ministry of the whole body of Christ because they have all these different people to refer people to let me give an example maybe there's a person out here who's a fairly young believer but they can be an encouraging they can walk with somebody they can pray for them they can encourage them so these guys here have plenty of people to refer people to they don't they won't get overburdened with ministry it works the other way the guys out here won't get over their heads trying to deal with things and are capable of dealing with because they have all these people who are more mature than them to refer people to so together the body of Christ is ministering everybody's involved the immature people are not trying to do things that they're not yet able to do because they're people here who are active the people in the center the leadership are not trying to shoulder everything because they have plenty of people to mobilize seems to me that's the model that the New Testament is is laying out now if that's gonna happen there's three things that have to happen all the time the first thing is everybody who comes into the church needs to be given that vision they need to be told of their moral responsibility to participate in the sanctification of the people around them that that's a big and call to and that vision we want to hold out all the time in small groups Sunday School classes preaching whatever vehicle we have second if you call it give people a vision you need to call them to commitment how about making straw life decisions to position yourself to be part of what God is calling you to do for example let's say there's a couple who's begun to give themselves that commitment that kind of ministry they've begun to realize their particular gifts the receiving ministry from others and the husband gets an opportunity for a very cool job in a city across country they don't actually need a bigger house they don't need a better car they don't actually need more money why wouldn't we have that conversation with them why wouldn't we at least engage the conversation about why you're making that decision well that decision position you more to be involved in the larger work of the kingdom of God maybe you should say it's a wonderful opportunity but we praise God for what he's called us to it is our life to be part of this we're gonna stay committed third thing as you're calling people to commitment it's it's sort of unloving unkind to give people a vision and call them to commitment and they don't know how in the world to do this thing they're committed to do so you got a train train train I think Tim and I both have given our lives to this but we believe the the local church should never stop training people you don't have a training class for three months and never have it again for five years because everybody needs to be trained so they can answer the question here's what it looks like for me to be part of what God is doing in the lives of somebody else so we never stopped giving people vision we never stopped reminding them of their part in God's work we never stopped calling them to structural life commitments and we keep training training training is really wise made me think you know Samson's strength was tied to the his hair is it possible your wisdom is tied to your mustache he's been saving that Hey it's it's not I have to say this because it's not actually a mustache it's a mutation I have three of them on my back so that was very that was very hurtful ted has one on his knee my mom had one right here was so sad we'd say mom's shave we're going out to eat hey you and I you and I know that Ryan didn't come up with that line somebody somebody had to well a follow-up question was is Tim have you ever had mustache Envy I have working with Paul all these years it was funny when I'd left my church and Clemson it was because of Paul Paul they were looking to add another pastor on the staff and when I left Paul came down and preached and thinking in the final service when I was there right before I actually took off they gave me what was kind of a makeshift mustache that they taped onto my face because they knew I was going to work with Paul and everybody it's very sad in ministry when your mustache is better known than you man when there is a Twitter site with your of your mustache yeah there is Paul Tripps mustache that's a Twitter that may work to your advantage in your case somebody somebody recently had an interview of me of an upcoming event that was just my moustache floating in the air so I've now been pushed aside it's my moustache that's doing the ministry well as the moderator who derailed the Train let me bring it back and there a couple other things that one let's go back to this training thing how can how can Christians grow in this thing of in every member ministry or one another ring huh how can first pastors train them what's that look like and in the on a church member responsibilities how do they pursue that and grow in it the way I think about this is you want to start with your core leadership you want those people to be trained you want that group to be the best mutual ministry small group in your church you wouldn't be wonderful if people would look at that core group of leadership and say if we could experience with their experience we'd be so excited and that that's like an infection then that moves out and then you you you call people to that commitment and you make training opportunities regularly available and and I think it's important that you place that training not in this weird world of formal counseling yeah where I have to sign up as a counsel Lee and you have to announce that you're a highly trained professional you you stick that in everyday life there are times when I lose my way and I need Louella to put her hand on my hand and say what are you doing what's going on and she reminds me of Who I am she reminds me of the gospel that's where you want to put it or one of my grown married children text me dad what do I do about this that's where it's gonna live for most of them most of us won't be in office most of us won't have those kind of formal relationships but we need to be we need to have our potential for those encounters raised for example let's just say Sally is going through her 15 year old son's book bag because she can smell it from the kitchen and it's three stories up in his bedroom because there's been lunches from probably three years ago still in their book bag and she finds a joint in his book Bank for those who are not into current council our culture I don't mean a knuckle I'm talking about marijuana it would be trouble - that's right if you find appendages in there it's a whole different issue and she calls you on the phone what happens next is what we would call counseling what happens next is personal ministry I'm not just concerned about that all the unbiblical advice giving by professionals I'm concerned about the thousands and thousands of those encounters that take place every week in a body of Christ and people don't realize what we're doing what they're doing and so here's a very significant spiritual issue and very often we just give quick advice out of our hip pocket not really thinking about how the advice you give is going to set that family on a very important trajectory and wouldn't it be wonderful for me when I got that call to feel like I have some sense of what I should do next that's training it's it should live at street level in everyday life I think I think this is a really critical place where you're wanting to give folks very practical skills because if you if you talk about let's be more intentional about our relationships let's get more involved one another typically we're going to err on the side of saying well how do I fight you no point out the sin in this other person's life how do you know and so we we almost without realizing it encourage people to do awkward inappropriate things that are unloving and they think that they're actually doing what we've asked them to do to be more intentional and I would say three great categories to think about as as people interact with one another within the context of the body of Christ would be the category categories the good the hard and the bad and whenever you're interacting in a relationship and you're getting to know someone what are the good things that God is doing in their life I want to lead there I want to be on a scavenger hunt for God's grace and the mark of the Spirit that I see in their lives then I want to be listening to the hard things what are the difficulties that they're experiencing I want to be attuned to that I want to be prayerful about that I want to encourage them through those difficulties and then we can talk about you know the the responses the struggles and the giving in to temptation said we can get there but those are I think nice categories and I mentioned this during our break if you look at John's letters to the seven churches and Ephesians the only church that he starts with the bad is I think the church at Laodicea every other church he starts with the good in the heart and so they're just as a practical paradigm for interpersonal conversations I want to listen for and find the good in in what God is doing in people's lives I want to see the difficult and then I want to be concerned about the bad and how can I even in those contexts encourage someone to grow in grace you know I think what often happens with people as they're going through a difficulty that the the difficulty looms so large it clouds their vision of God's presence and His grace I was sitting with a family that you would say was a very broken rather chaotic situation as they and they were so discouraged and as they told their story I saw God's grace all over the place but they didn't and that's where I started I I started I I don't I don't want I said to him I don't want in any way minimize what you're going through but I've been blown away by the grace of God this evening I start talking about that husband has tears streaming down its his face the wife reaches over and grabs the hand of her husband they were holding on to that grace with both hands that's what they needed that night we were gonna get to the hard stuff but they needed to see that God is with us and in us and for us and they had lost sight of that something to add to you guys talked about this at lunch today that part of the equation is just doing it just doing it so the training very important yes there is a way to botch it for sure to be less encouraging than you could but I think most of us feel like oh I'm Paul Tripp I couldn't figure out all the grace buttons to push and I don't know what to say and III don't have enough scripture memorized to be able to encourage here but but at lunch you guys said just do it and I think that's part of it part of the equation here here's a skill that anybody in this room can do and I don't care how old you are you can listen to someone well and you can say this after you listen well how can I pray for you that that's biblical counseling and you know that's not going after the jugular and what's the sin in your life and what's the idol listen keep your mouth closed you don't have to give advice all the time you're gonna have opportunity to do that as you build trust and relational capital how can I pray for you that that ministers to people I bet when people do that to me I I am I am so helped and encouraged when people say can I pray for you how can I pray for you that that's that's I mean you know it's not rocket science it really isn't and we want to kind of you know move quickly - this kind of formal counseling professional skills all that do we need to know all the current modern problems and diagnoses and techniques and things of that nature but when it comes to everyday life listening how can I pray for you and I would sort of repeat the theme of what I said today we're not people mechanics it's not a I'm gonna fix you agenda it's it's how can I reflect the love of Jesus how can I encourage confidence in the Savior so maybe the question is what's it look like to love a person's going through this maybe that would be just going over their house and babysitting the kids and saying get out of the house maybe that's just a card that says I'm my hardest for you I have a sense of how hard this moment is for you I'm praying for you I mean just asking that simple question what does it look like to enter in to this situation with the level of Lord Jesus it is this just when their sin that needs confrontation or just when there's a problem that needs comfort no because you're you know you're you're building relational capital all the time I I said it this week in an hour our lunch conversation is too bad we couldn't fit all of you in the room that if if I have hard things to say to two people and one of them doesn't know me at all and one of them has grown to know me and they know that I love them which one is predisposed to listen to what I have to say it's obvious and so I take my relationship seriously because I don't know when the love that we've developed is going to be employed by the Lord in a very important moment in that person's life so I'm not just looking for ministry moments that's just kind of weird and creepy because you know I now you now know I'm your ministry target I don't want to be your ministry target I want to have a god-honoring love relationship with you and here's a way of knowing whether or not you're doing that well is whether or not people come back if people aren't coming back then something's wrong if they are there feeling is if you're welcoming you're listening to them you're caring for them good someone asked what's the relationship between relationships and my own Bible and prayer and communion with the Lord or hot as the vertical relate to the horizontal I think the question really is does my devotions my quiet time does that that feed into me being ready and quick and eager to speak into people's lives you know Jim you know at least when I when I've been doing in more formal context pastoral ministry de cycling one-on-one it was not unusual for something that was striking me in terms of my own prayer Bible reading or maybe something a book I was reading for that too to enter into a conversation I would be having with someone now I wanted to make sure it fit but there's oftentimes a direct connection but I think I think it I think it goes both ways I mean they're there feeding and informing one another my time in the word is is informing my conversations with people my conversations with people are coming back and informing what I'm thinking about as I read the scriptures how does how did the scriptures relate to real life that I've been encountering and experiencing in my relationships with other people so it's just a nice a nice relationship between the two and I think there it one of the things that happens to me in that regular personal time of devotion and meditation on the gospel is it develops in me that renewed sense of my own need that that I am surely more like than unlike any person I would Minister to and and that does introduce health into my ministry to other people because I'm not a fixer I'm not thinking that I've arrived and you haven't and I'm gonna help you get there and then then invariably like Tim says if I think about the people that a regular meant meet with I I don't have a regular counseling schedule but there's a regular group of people I meet with for just fellowship and the things of the Lord invariably I'll think of conversations that we've had they will come to mind as God works in my heart he's also crafting me for ministry to other people so I think there's a a very important contribution of those personal times to the the ministry of friendship and fellowship that we've been we've been talking about yeah the answer I think is in the passage you you preached earlier Paul Colossians three six 3:16 let the word of Christ dwell richly within you and then you speak and admonish one another can I can I give a caution there yeah I think it's very very important having said that that you not let your personal devotional time be kidnapped by ministry so when you're there all you're thinking about is other people very often when I'm doing a marriage weekend I'll say two wives I want to pass you for a moment please don't sit here and listen for your husband listen for you and if your husband don't don't sit there and listen for your wife and so I don't want to get to the point where my personal time between the Lord doesn't have me sitting at the feet of my Savior with an open heart it just I'm always thinking above the people in my life because it loses a very important piece of its significance if that happens and that is a temptation you know someone asked the question is there a category of deep clothes godly relationship for which there's little conflict is it possible for a relationship to grow and for it to be godly and to be pretty easy and peaceful because guys just or guys and girls are husband and wife just get along not if it's with me okay I I mean I think Tim may have risen to that level of sanctification where he's a southern fellow they're nice that's right they're just they're so nice I thought I was going to do it these southern guys I never know if they're mad at me or not now in Philly you know that's right there's no doubt you know look I think that that by God's grace incredible transformation can happen in a relationship I I think of where Louella and I were in our early days I mean there are times when I look in at that couple and I think it's hard to imagine it's the same couple and there's a way in which now there's an easiness to our relationship I didn't say sinlessness but we get at confession and forgiveness so much more quickly we deescalate things so much more quickly praise God for that would I say our relationship is completely conflict free no but we really do celebrate the wisdom of God's Word and the presence of His grace in our marriage because it's rescued us from us and and so we've developed a culture in that relationship where we're just not afraid to go after things as we once were I can remember the early days we we took seriously that passage that says don't let the Sun go down on your anger and so it be laying in our bed propping our eyes open waiting for the other person to confess first we had more sleepless nights just out of stubbornness and and now it is just not like that so it's that balance are we free of sin no have we grown yes is there room to grow yes and I would say that we need to grant ourselves room for differences in terms of temperament how we're hardwired you know our personalities are different too you know you might have a couple that's that lives more out loud than another couple and you know there there's there's no one couple or a relationship that's that's normative the question that you're looking for is is their growth and grace are you seeing more and more the fruit of the Spirit that that's what you're after it's not how come my relationship with my spouse doesn't look like Tim and Barbara or Paul and Louella it's are we as a couple given who we are in terms of how we've been hardwired temperamentally our own unique sins and struggles our sufferings our history all of that how are we together growing in in grace and I think that means sometimes it did conflict between couples is going to look different I know a couple that works at CCF and what conflict looks like in their home is when she asked him to do something and he raises the newspaper to avoid having to look at her now that's very different than what conflict looks like in my marriage all right my wife and I are much more verbal and and but he would say there's really no difference in kind there may be in degree but it's the same struggle there's that same conflict going on but it just looks differently I think from couple to couple from the relationship to relationship and I would add even even within a relationship let's say marriage the two people may have different ways of going after those things that are within biblical boundaries so Louella would be slower more contemplative in her way of dealing with things I want to get at it I mean there was one moment when I'm sort of saying we got we got to deal with this she walks into the kitchen and I follow her said we got to deal with this and she walks upstairs into the bedroom when I father said we gotta deal with this she walked into the bathroom she finally said I'm trying to get away from you you're not getting something here and she was she wasn't being mean she was just saying I need space I'm committed to deal with this thing but this is not the way I do it and I've had to learn not to ask her to deal with those things in the way that I would deal deal with it she's just as committed to deal with those things in a biblical way but the nuance of that is different from me all right let's talk about forgiveness Tim your your message just a little bit ago probably raised some questions for people they're probably wishing that they could have submitted questions after that talk and not before so forgiveness isn't forgetting and forgiveness isn't the same thing as reconciliation and forgiveness isn't the same thing as trust suppose someone here says you just obliterated everything I think about when I think about forgiveness I think of forgiveness as being this blanket and it being unconditional and really really I mean can you just go at it again kind of maybe give a a buttress defense for what I think I'm just trying to highlight the horizontal piece is a little bit more complex than the vertical in some sense you know and whenever you're dealing with another person issues of trust issues of not forget you know of always remembering what was done to you those things are much more nuanced and complex I think scripture certainly speaks to that and and I think the the passages that I referenced particularly clarifying that jeremiah 31:34 i will i will you know separate your sense from the east west i will remember them no more just really getting a sense of what that word remember it's not a memory word it's a covenant word it's a promise word I I think it's important to nuance it that way because I think it's much more realistic and true to how God made us as human beings and the reality and the dynamics of of sin and how they play themselves out do you think some people think that they struggle with for forgiveness because they think it means total forgetfulness sure yeah I see it all the time and and let me give you an illustration let's let's pretend that I'm I'm in a business with a brother in Christ and I discover that he has embezzled a major amount of money that have put the business at risk now I forgive him I vertically let go of that offense and Trust it to God I don't treat him vengefully but I realize that he in in ways that are very significant is enslaved to material things that he's attached his identity and meaning and purpose to material things and that war is still going on inside of him and so I cannot entrust any longer my financial well-being to him it would be unwise in fact it would be not loving to him because that would tempt him more he would have more wherewithal to do the same thing again so in that way you could argue that not continuing the business together is an act of forgiveness I'm loving this man I'm ministering to him but I'm also being wise in terms of the call of God to be a good steward of the resources God has given me I'm not unforgiving I care for that man I want the best for him I want God's best for him but we can't do business together right now because there's still a spiritual war going on in his heart that I don't have the power to remove I think we're often in those situations and I think it does become very confusing when you say if you forgive a person you'll always be fully reconciled to that person in the way you were before the offense it's just unwise this side of eternity that's not always a wise choice I actually think that's what Jesus is getting at in that complicated you know someone slaps you on one cheek turn the other if he takes a tunic give him another it's that idea of going the distance with people what you're saying is this and I've actually had to do this in my own family with my younger brother I had to say I love you I'm committed to you I want to have a relationship with you and I'm not closing the door on the possibility of us having a relationship and when you're ready I'm ready that was me turning the other cheek I'm saying I'm still here you know I'm not going to shut the door on this relationship but I can't continue to let you do X Y & Z it wouldn't be loving it would not be a proper thing to do in relationship to my wife and kids and and so you know I want you to hear me loud and clear I love you I'm here when you're ready to do the relationship right and us have a meaningful relationship I'm all-in I think of it this way that the the love of forgiveness includes refusing to return to that cycle of evil again because that's not good for you that's not good for me that's not honoring to God now if we could be in a different place I'm all-in this is not an act of vengeance I don't want to hurt you I'm not saying you treat me this way you don't get me anymore but I'm recognizing that what is necessary for us to have a relationship is not presently here that's a grief to me I would love to love to be able to return to that but it's not always the case speak to someone who hears this and thinks oh good I guess I do forgive that person and get wall is up and it really happened so now they've used this as an excuse to say I forgive you keep down they're hard they still Hey I tell you what I what I immediately think as you began talking is don't try to make that assessment by yourself I am I am so easy easily able to swindle myself I mean the person who's thinking they forget I person so I'm so able to recast something as forgiveness that's actually vengeance get to a mature person get to your pastor and talk through what you're feeling what you're doing because what you may think it's forgiveness may actually be holding on the offense it may be vengeance sometimes it's it's it's nearly impossible for me to clarify my attempt my intentions by myself I had a moment like that where it was very critical and I went to the five people that know me the best that could just weigh in and I just got a unity of response that let me know know what I needed I couldn't of done it by myself I was too close that's and by the way that's a great application for what we're talking about when we talk about one another being willing to seek out godly counsel when you know that they might tell you what you don't want to hear you know I like to surround myself with people that are gonna kind of you know feed me what I need to hear what I want to hear but saying I need to open myself up to other counsel people they're gonna potentially see this differently it's gonna be painful for me to let go of what I think is right and what I've convinced myself is true but I need to be I need to be humble enough to put myself in that situation I tell ya I don't I don't go there naturally and and but it is it is a mark of the Spirit at work in a person's life when they're willing to do what I like to do is get counsel from people but I tell them the story in a way that they are inevitably going to exonerate me yeah it's like surely as smart as you are you'll agree in this idiot I kind of relate to that someone wrote in we know that hearts are sinful and sneaky deceitful but is it possible to be too introspective into suspicious and then to to be too negative we're constantly negative in our assessment of ourselves that is a great question I do how people change seminars all the time and I typically say there are two types of people here swinging in different directions on the continuum there unreflective activists people that just like to be busy and they're probably thinking oh Tim you're complicating Christian life we've got you know people to win to Christ we need to get out there there's work to do the cultures going to hell in a handbasket we've got to win people for Jesus and then on the other end though you have what you might call the morbid introspection 'us and they're going to tend whether they're hardwired temperament temperamentally whatever has potentially happened to them they struggle in that way they're going to tend to just continually turn inward and and there's a real caution I think as we think about self-examination and and the Bible is very very clear Psalm 139 search me O God Philippians 2 do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit what's Paul saying make sure your motives are pure so he's asking us to look within and I think that the the two things that need to be a part of godly self-reflection and self-examination are things that move you outward in two directions and that first movement outward as you look inward and as you see your own struggles and weaknesses and sins is you are immediately moving outward to Christ for grace if that's not happening then we have we have some issues and then the second movement outward is this this turning inward and self-examination is not only moving me out to flee to Christ for grace and to grow in gratitude for His mercies for me but it's moving the outward in new ways to other people that that's where we that's where we want people to be moving and so yes I do think there there is a danger in becoming morbidly introspective feeling this sense of guilt and shame and being overwhelmed with that that certainly can happen and more some of us in this room are more susceptible to that than others it's it and it is a place where we're the the gospel of Jesus Christ is counter-intuitive because a normal human culture I establish my sense of well-being by assessing my performance and I establish acceptance by others by the degree of my performance this is a different ballgame I don't have to beat myself up because I'm not measuring up because Christ Jesus measured up on my behalf my well-being is not based in my measuring up so he's not a humble and godly thing to remain in guilt and not go to grace and gratitude no it's not because in fact my confession that I don't measure up and my celebration of fact that Christ it is what honors God mean to the degree that I keep beating myself up what am i doing I'm rejecting the sacrifice of Christ how is that honoring to God how is it honoring God to be so defeated that I can barely get out of bed in the morning because I'm I'm listing all of my iniquity every day how is it I mean that's that's the exact opposite of the gospel the gospel is that in the face of the impossibility of my ever measuring up to God's standard Christ did that for me now that is immune I don't care about growth of course I do that I don't want to do better but at the deepest level my security rest in the performance of Christ on my behalf he is my righteousness in light of that you can have a self-forgetfulness that allows you to focus on loving others right and and I mean I think I think all this is right I think one of the things that it also has to factor in here is there probably people in this audience who have either had something done to them or they've done things that they're deeply ashamed of and they struggle with deep shame and guilt and that's a whole different issue of growth and grace and I would commend to to you if that is a struggle of yours and if you're working with people that struggle with shame and guilt guilt deep residual shame and guilt they feel dirty and unclean again because they feel like they've been contaminated by something that's happened to them or because of something they've done shame interrupted by Edie Welch it's a new book shame interrupted by Edie Welch I really would commend that that book to you it it really does a nice job I think of addressing the particularly the shame side of the human condition and the impact of sin and suffering that that we we experience looking outward to people now other people not just ourselves someone asked is there a point when you're trying to speak into another's life when all you get in return is manipulation and meanness does the proverb do not answer a fool according to his folly fit into this whole equation of our relationships with other side how does it work you know sure you've got to recognize futility you you have to recognize your limits that there there is a moment where you've said everything you can say and that what you do after that almost begins again in the category of trying to do God's job you're gonna do whatever is necessary to get changed in person's life and and I think when you're there it begins to go dark you you actually may deepen the trouble you're on somebody like skin and you're looking at for every opportunity and it just becomes impressive now that doesn't mean I give up because I believe in the power of Almighty God I have to share this example my grandmother was a dear sweet believer she was blind and she memorized extensive portions of Scripture just by listening to him on tape over and over again she would she would every day she said I I travel the country praying for all of my children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren but she was married to a horrible man he was angry he was abusive you couldn't imagine living in that relationship and she got to a point where she knew she couldn't talk to him because it would just make him violently angry and so she decided she would live the life of Christ in front of this man he came to Christ at 76 and at his baptism which I will never forget he said I could argue against the theology of the church I could argue against his programs I could say it was just a money-making machine because the offering was always always central to the service but he pointed to her she couldn't see him do this when it turns he said but I could not argue against her life for her 3 yeah and he said finally I said to myself I want to know the God that this this woman knows and I would say that right there taken to a whole different area of life is the lesson for parenting teens you you you are growing in wisdom to know when there's a moment of teachability and when you need to back off I often say because I tend Paul I'm like you I want to get in there and deal with it I say for me oftentimes with my kids as they've gone through the teen years the most godly thing I can do as a father is shut up that I mean I just have to be that that confrontational with myself I just need to close my mouth and I need to be patient and I need to say you know what I may not get to deal with this now there's a pattern I am concerned but maybe a week from now maybe a month from now maybe a year from now but this whole issue of choosing your moments wisely and not always feeling like you've got to insert your opinion into the mix to make sure everybody knows that you're right and they're wrong yeah and think about this you may be riled up it's not good for you in that moment they're riled up it's not good for them in this moment God's good this person lives with you you'll get another up that's right that's right they're not going anywhere you're still feeding them they'll be right for those of you don't know Paul has a book on parenting teenagers called age of opportunity I I would heartily recommend it not thank you for that help yeah well on that note why don't we wrap this up many things to you guys for your ministry among us this weekend you you didn't hear this conversation because the one that Tim and I had together what I think it's important to say we are both very aware that it's much easier for us to communicate this stuff than to live it we're not grace graduates these truths are precious to us because we desperately need them ourselves and and I would say if you if you think of praying for us pray for that pray that we would be by God's grace men who who live what we teach all the time and don't leave with some preconceived notion that you're a wretch and we've got it all together spend a little time with us it won't take long I promise it won't take long you'll be really encouraged well thanks so much guys we've been helped indeed you

Channel: DESERT SPRINGS CHURCH

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Length: 69min 10sec (4150 seconds)

Published: Fri Mar 29 2013