"Okay tape's on" My name is Detective Brad Hoover, my badge number 6188 and I'm with Toronto Police Service Sex Crimes Unit. The time now is 2:05 p.m., we're
presently at the Kingston Penitentiary in Kingston Ontario, in a boardroom, and as thick as the main
building you'd call it. Present in the room here if I could just have each of you identify
yourself for the purposes of the videotape that's being made. Seated to my left, off-camera
and now sitting at the table, is your counsel. Just identify yourself. "Yes certainly. It's Anthony
Bryant." And straight across the table for me if you identify yourself. "Constable Darlene Coulas,
badge number six four eight three from Toronto Police Service." And seated to my right, if you could just
identify yourself. "Paul Jason Teal — a.k.a. Paul Bernardo" And again my name is Brad Hoover and today is
June the 7th 2007. Mr. Teal, the reason that we're here today is to speak to you regards to a
couple of incidents, a couple of matters. First of all before we start I just want you
to make sure that you're aware that what we say is being videotaped here. "Yeah that
works." I'm just going to start this audio tape I forgot to do that Now I just started this audiotape here we started
the interview at 2:05 p.m. my name is Detective Brad Hoover all you're not presently being
given a caution or anything and I want you to understand what you're saying to us today
is voluntary. That means that if you don't want to talk to us you don't have to. Your counsel
is present and if you need to speak to him you certainly can but I just want to make sure
you understand what you're saying here is voluntary and that we're interviewing you as
a potential witness. Do you understand that? "Yeah" Just a little bit of background about the
first time we met back last year in April of 2006. That was in regards to a letter that you
had sent through the attorney general's office that filtered down to my office in regards to
some admissions that you made about some sexual assaults that you committed. I'm here to tell you that
I have concluded that investigation and that there have been two offenses that I have been able to
identify and with the information that you've provided to me at that time was able to conclude
those matters as having been committed by yourself So for that I thank you for that information. "Sorry,
you've identified..." Identified this offense, no no no no I have identified the offense that you were
talking about and based on that information I was able include those cases that actually provided
enough information that I was satisfied you were the person that committed those offenses. "Okay." That make sense? "That makes sense, what about ones that you thought that I came forward with that maybe you thought that I
didn't do? Were there any of those?" There was none that I thought you didn't do. There were some that I didn't have enough information to either identify the offense because you were unable to provide enough details at that time, or they may not have ever been reported
to the police. As you said when we spoke, some of them were I won't call them minor type offences but ah — "No, I understand" — offences that may not have been
reported to the police. "Ok, um, well, I turned on the TV, I waited for Peel Regional to come by;
September rolls they say, they make a public announcement, it's written on my file here, that
that I lied to police and I did not commit the crimes that I said I committed, the offences in Peel Region. Okay, big problem." I have spoken to Peel Region
and they have told me that they don't have enough information at this point
to identify anything that you, the letter that was sent to the police to through to the police
wasn't specific enough to identify any offenses Now that's something that we can talk about sort
of following this interview and if you want to get into that we can talk about that. "Look, I've been sitting on this for years in this place. It's written on my file and it makes me seem like always just this crazy — you guys love
doing that — I'm just this crazy psychopathic liar Why was that statement issued? Why didn't they come in
and talk to me if they didn't have enough information. We were waiting, now that tape, you can play that tape
back, I asked you guys is Peel Regional gonna come in. I sat here month after month after
month — no one came. I turned on the TV in September Peel Regional, you know, declared that Paul Bernardo was, you know, this crazy liar to police. What what what's the fundamental problem here?" Well "I know I mean
justice, the Canadian way and and no one comes in and now you guys are saying that you didn't
have enough information? Well..." I can't answer for them specifically as to what they did or didn't
do. I can tell you that because they're a separate police department I don't have any control over
what investigation that they did do I can tell you that I have spoken with the investigator
in Peel Region and they have told me that at this point they don't have enough information to
move forward. They haven't been able identify any offense that was specifically talked about. "That statement you're
giving me as much different the public statement they said which said I was a liar." I don't, I don't... "The same game, they didn't come in if they don't have enough information, while don't you come in get the information.
I mean either I'm lying or not lying and this goes to the crux of this argument. Either I'm a liar to
you, that I'm lying to you right now about everything like I did to Peel Regional, according to their story, or
I'm not, and, you know, I I just I just I'm not gonna sit here and, you know, come voluntarily and have people
come — you guys banned me from the press, you roll your stories over and you constantly say that I'm
a liar, I'm a liar. I made mistakes 17 years ago, so okay, fine, I did, but but now we're talking about
today and you're not gonna roll forward that I'm some psychopathic liar sitting in jail claiming
other people's responsibilities for other crimes This is a total of cross-examination point
you want started this thing James Lockyer is gonna grab a hold of it and say, well he lied
about other crimes, you know he's a crazy liar. Why didn't you guys resolve this?" And again
I can't answer for what Peel Region did or didn't do Jurisdictionally we're kind of bound... "Well, still, there's the
good guys and the bad guys, you know, what I mean you're on the same team." Yes we are, but as far as
us investigating matters that take place outside of the actual Toronto proper, that's why
Peel Regional has their police service and, like Detective Hoover said, we can't answer as to what
they did with their investigations or the many issues that they were looking at that transpired
out in their area and we really can't speak to that. Now whether that's something you wish to have your
counsel deal with someone and that something else, but unfortunately there isn't a lot Detective Hoover and I can do with regards to those things "Well, you've been watching this thing and they should subpoena these guys from Peel Regional They can bring out all the
facts to show just where I lied that if I'm a liar. That's what I say to do it because either
I'm a liar or I'm not a liar and I'm not a liar but you guys are trying to paint me as one. The
public, court of the public, they turn on the TV in September of last year and I was this crazy
liar. That's what the TV reported and not only did the reported there, they wrote it on my file.
I've got to right in my cell: Paul Bernardo, Peel Regional said Paul Bernardo lied to police about
crimes he didn't commit and said he did." Okay "I mean this is this, that's just awful. I mean come on, enough
manipulation, you know what I mean, either you tell the truth or don't, otherwise the whole purpose of
any interview is just stupid, because if I'm this crazy liar, I'll be sitting here lying to you
about everything, right? Right? I mean, why wouldn't I am just this crazy liar." And then, again, I don't I don't
know exactly what was said by Peel Region I'm not here to answer to what they said, they're... "You
know, it's one thing, you know — I'm a human being and to say that I'm a dangerous offender and raper
and killer and all this stuff is fine. I mean free publicity, you know, get that real tough-on-crime, get that
bad guy, but but when you go to a certain point of lying, it just, I mean, it affects me totally, you
know. I made mistakes, I made mistakes long time ago, but don't say that today about this because then
we're liable and we got a big problem because I'm looking at you and you're the bad guys, because
I'm not doing anything wrong. I'm out telling the truth and you guys are walking around issuing
statements that I lie here, I lie there. No?" Well, I mean, those aren't statements that were issued by Detective Hoover or myself or... "I know, but it's the same it's Attorney General who sent you guys down
here, he's fighting the case, he's taking this ball pitch back, right, so it's really all,
it's the same organization. It's the Attorney General I see him on TV talking about it." But this is a
separate matter from what those issues were "It's still the Attorney General's office." Yeah may very well be but, so, we can't speak to anything that Peel Regional does or
statements that they release out to the media, because they have... "You
know, it's the same thing if I'm a liar take the facts that that they have, they come down
and talk to me any cross-examine, any defence lawyer can call them up and show me where I'm lying, because you're
not gonna find it. Maybe there's a minor mistake here and there — I think I have one thing about some tree, driveway where trees were, you know memory gets a little old over time, but to say that is just ridiculous.
Just like you guys didn't go, uh, you guys polygraph Karla yet? Ask her about it? Nobody from the General Attorney’s office go down there? Nobody cared? Again — I know — but it's the same problem because you're making me out to be huge liar and and this is a problem." Well, I don't have any doubt as to what you told us before.
The facts that I can verify I believe were true And from what you told me you haven't told
me any lies yet, so I have no personal reasons to believe that your lying. "Exactly." So... "Exactly." So...
"But this is was different story than I've got in my file..." And I don't know what's in your file
because I'm not privy to that information or what's there or what's not there I'm just telling
you from my perspective and from an investigative perspective into what I've looked into, to what
admissions you've made back in April last year to me, I'm I'm satisfied I've done what I can
do as far as the investigation. If Peel, if you'd like to provide me with more information about
the specific occurrences that occurred in Peel Region then we can talk about that after the
focus of what we're here for today. "But it is part of the focus." Well it is and it isn't. "Well I think it is."
I mean, obviously directly we're here today to deal with the Baltovich matter that you're aware of. "But dealing with me comes down to credibility Comes down to credibility, absolutely it does and that's
that's what we're here to talk about today and so let's let's deal with that and then we can deal with the other stuff afterwards. Is that ok? "Yeah, go ahead, just making my point on it because it's gonna be addressed
sometimes." Absolutely it will. "It should have been dealt with a year and a bit ago. So" "Well, not quite a year, actually." A little over a year ago.
Um, I have some questions that were that were given to me to ask you in relation to the Baltovich matter,
the Robert Baltovich matter before we do that I just want to say you understand
obviously the importance of telling the truth and the consequences potentially of someone
who lies to the police and not telling the truth? "I think we discovered that actually I was
referring you guys tell the truth." Right, okay, so we're aware of that in this matter I believe that you
had some conversation with your council into the regards to it and there has been some discussion
about polygraph testing in this matter. Is that true or not true or do you recall that? "Wha?... You're opening cans of worms everywhere." No, I'm just asking you a specific question. "You know that goes back to you guys
polygraphed everyone about the Camaro, you didn't polygraph Karla, and in two years since, have you
guys gone down there and asked her? Have you settled the matter with it because you could say I lied
or whatever about polygraph but have you asked her? Because it comes down to a lot of that issue." OK.
"You know I mean have you asked her? Has the attorney general gone down..." OK, I don't know Let me tell you a little bit; my involvement
with this overall investigation of the Baltovich is very limited. The only knowledge that I
have is, as to what investigation has been done or hasn't been done, is specifically what's remained
the conversations I've had about this interview here today, okay? Who or what other witnesses there
are, I don't know. "In answer, in answer to your question, I don't want to go off in tangents, but
all these all these issues are relevant. I know you don’t think they are. In answer to your
question is, we had some discussion on it but when Corcoran and the OPP came down before Karla
was released I told him I'd be willing to take a polygraph on anything and everything would you
in turn are you going to go down before you release Karla and just asked her — she's not gonna take it
she's gonna fail on on all these issues — did her hand cause [inaudible] blah blah blah did this
Tami happen in July, was the girl in January actually kidnapped and not somebody I
picked up at a bar that she tried to roll over and all these other issues all relevant all
relevant, and and, so then I addressed it to you guys when you came back again last year I
said yeah I'll take a polygraph on anything because I I'm not telling a lie on a thing. Are you, have
you, again, I asked the question have you guys gone down there? I know that Karla's free now. I'm not in the
business of putting her in jail, it's not my thing but my point was, did you ask you her the question
just so we get the story straight I mean if she refuses, well, there's there's a reason why she's
refusing and again you guys couldn't provide the answer and now almost a year later again you don't
provide the answer. So, I mean, you know, I don't know what you're asking me, you're asking me to take a
polygraph when you were willing to ask her?" Well again "I mean..." This this my part of this investigation
is is limited to what we're saying here today so the the details of all of what other witnesses
may or may not have been asked or done, I don't know and as a as a potential witness
I'm not allowed to tell you what we have done so now I have to sort of be careful about the
way that it's answered or even what you think my answer might be. "Yeah, I know, I just just wanted for
the record that I gave you good information which you guys could have independent of me could have
verified my story or not and whether you guys do or do not is your business. Like I said, I'm not a
prosecutor I'm not here to point a finger at anyone but I showed you where to go so if you
guys don't do that your business. But you know to me, it's like if you didn't, why didn't you if
you want to know the truth about things." Right. "So..." I understand that and I understand what you're saying, so, what we're here to talk about today, obviously you know that this statement may be used in court or maybe sent to court as a voluntary
statement. "Yeah." Okay a polygraph obviously is not something that's court admissible but I'm not
sure if you're aware of that or not. "Yeah I am." So its not before the court So the crux of what we're here to talk about is that it
has been suggested that in the continuing case of the disappearance of Elizabeth Bain and
the charge of murder against Robert Baltovich that you are the alternative suspect, or an
alternative suspect. Are you aware of that? "Yeah, yeah." Did you kill Elizabeth Bain on June the 19th 1990?
"Well, it's a loaded question. I mean are we gonna go back and go through the time sequence of what
happened in my life. I mean I could just give a yes or no answer but you know there's a lot of
issues about that." Right. "You know, Karla's, my role who did what, where, when — this is why I said did you
guys you know go down there to get a polygraph to get to see if she was telling the truth. Like, why
didn't Bevan do it in the first place? I mean his polygraphing everyone over the Camaro, why would
he make a deal with someone and not give them a polygraph? It's incomprehensible to me. You
know because now I'm sitting — my file says her version, and it's a lie. You know, you know what
I mean?" Yeah. "Like you know and I'm not making frivolous points here. I mean, and now you're asking me
after you after you said Peel Regional said I'm lying about this, and then you're saying I'm lying
about my profile, you're saying I'm lying if I'm better or not, now you're saying hey did you kill
this person? I mean well you're saying I'm lying here here here. I could say no I didn't, but I mean you
already said I'm lying here with Peel, you're saying..." Ok, I'm not saying anything about who's lying
I'm simply, um... "And I’ve given you directions to go to find the truth and no one's done that." And I
have asked and again I have told you that I've done investigations on information that you've told me,
and as a result of that information I have been able to verify in my mind where you've told me the truth,
so if Peel Region is lying about you or someone else is lying about you, I have no control over that or no...
"It goes right to credibility." Well absolutely it does and that's I guess the the easy way
today is to if we can go through will answer the questions and yes I hope to be able to go
through some timeline to identify where you were what you were doing specifically in relation
to this this case. "Anyways I know I'm giving you guys a hard time about certain things but, I mean, really,
I'm a human being and when you guys do all these things I've gotta... anyways, I'll try and truncated it
a little bit more but, anyways, the answer to that is no, but the 800-pound gorilla in the room is that's a life-25 sentence,
you know, it really comes down to credibility and not only credibility but then again timeline.
I mean. between what Karla's and my roles were respectively and this and that. The answer's no
to that question." Did you have anything to do with her disappearance? "No." Did you know Elizabeth Bain? "Not that I know of." Had you ever met her? "I'm gonna answer that with I don't remember Because if I did or I didn't, I don't remember But I know an ex-girlfriend try to say it but, like I say, I don't remember" You are they obviously are
aware of her disappearance? "Yeah, sort of." Do you recall when you became aware of this? "Best that I can recollect after in September "Didn't follow the news much" The date obviously June the 19th 1990 was... "But
but but, you know, other than that I don't remember, maybe I heard about it before but I can't recall if I did or not. But I remember in jail I had newspapers after that fact and I saw something on it" We'll sort of get into that a little bit
when we hope to go through a bit of a timeline with you as to some things that may jog your
memory as to.. "We're talking now." Back in that time. I mean If you asked me what I was doing three weeks
ago on Tuesday I probably couldn't tell you unless you put some reference to it so hopefully
be able to do that and again obviously June the 19th 1990, do you know what you were doing that
day? "I have no recollection." I have a document here in front of me that references some points in time around
this, the June of 1990 period from police investigation. This is what indicates
you may have been involved with or may have certain things that you may have
done and I'd like to go through a couple of them that sort of may sort of assist
you in remembering what we were doing back in 1990 The first part of June 1990 actually June
the first, Karla had a doctor's appointment where she was complaining of pains in her
right side, perhaps she had something to do with the rabies shot, does that ring any bells?
"None at all." In the first part of June you had a Nissan 240sx is that correct? "Yeah." You're making several
trips into the United States June 2nd June 3rd June 10th June 16th. I think at that point you
were involved with cigarette smuggling and things like that from what I recall. Is that no? "That would be. No, that wasn't until after we moved out, so." Ok. So, making several trips to the States within
a couple of days that's something...? "When we started the relationship we were going over
all the time so just for personal reasons only" On June the 16th you shopped at Ruff Hewn. Is that Niagara
Falls, United States, is that store sound familiar to you? "Yeah it sounds familiar, I have no idea if those are the dates, but you got a receipt for it." I think there must be a receipt and again I don't have all the details I'm just going by what's on this sheet of paper — it's a black expandable binder, does that... "I can't recall 100 percent but..." That would have been around the same time. That was about a week prior to, if you purchased one of those, Elizabeth Bain going missing "I have no idea when I purchase it, I just recall
I had something like that, like an accordion binder type of thing June June the 16th again, thats woulda been the same day in St. Catharines you attended a movie Back to the Future
3. Do you recall when that movie came out? "I have no idea" There's a receipt for a cellphone
purchased at a Radio Shack at the Town & Country mall at 6366 Yonge
Street. Do you remember buying a cellphone "I know I bought a cell phone around that
time because when I declared bankruptcy I handed my other one in and I bought the Radio Shack one I don't know the dates." That would have been the
day after Elizabeth Bain went missing Does that... do you remember anything you were involved with around that time? You say you were going bankrupt so what type of activity were involved in sort of on a day-to-day basis?
"The only thing I remember about the bankruptcy that happened around a couple days before
the the sexual assault that the composite came out, that was — if i recollect correctly — it was two days before I filed for that "But I couldn't even tell you that date, I just
know it was some time in... what date did you say that was? June the...?" June the 16th of 1990. "When was
that sexual assault, the one with the composite, was it the 24th What date do you guys have for that?" There was one, there was a sexual assault
in May of 1990. "That the composite one? In May?" I think that it is but it doesn't say that
specifically here but shortly after that... "My time line's off." "Um, I don't know." The end of June of 1990 that was the original, when someone identified you potentially . as the Scarborough rapist... "When
was that, the end of...?" That was June 28 of 1990 Lori Homolka's 19th birthday was
June the 22nd 1990. Do you recall her going to her birthday? "I know, I know it was
around that time but I don’t specifically recall that birthday" The only reason it might have sunk in is she would have then been of legal drinking age and perhaps you [inaudible] "Way before that" June 21st so after just the day after you've
bought the cell phone you made a purchase at "I'm sorry, you know saying what 19 for this girl's...?" June 19th was the day she went missing "What day did I buy that?" June 20th was the day you bought the cell phone. June 25 "I must have declared bankruptcy around then because I got that cell phone — I had to hand my, all my, uh, items in to the trustee and I had a cell phone, so I went in and got a Radio Shack one, so it would have been right around the same time, I don’t think I went a month without it I don't think so, I might have, but anyways I don't know, it was a while ago, so memory's a bit fuzzy." Yeah, May the 29th which was just before that about a month before that that was the day that
the police released the composite. "Ah, so it was May" "So I lost a month. That's what happens you lock a guy over fifteen years and then bring this all up "The memory gets fuzzy. So I guess
I waited a month to get the cell phone." About a month to get the cell phone. Did you recall anything
what were what were you doing sorry during that month? Anything? "Probably the same thing says they're
going across the border, back and forth, recreational stuff "I know Tammy happened in July. That was I think third week
in July, for the first time but this was back a few months" Okay, so just prior to Tammy's birthday there
was some shopping at a Canadian Tire store... "Lori" "Lori's birthday. Sorry, Lori's birthday. Two times in one day you went to Canadian Tire on Sheppard Avenue 1019 Sheppard Avenue. Do you normally shop at Canadian Tire stores? "Back then, yeah. That's before all
these super center, Walmart's and stuff" Do you ever recall having any conversations
about the disappearance of Elizabeth Bain? "No." If I if I played you a, it's going to play
us a short audio clip. It's a conversation that you had — or a conversation between Tony Moore who was an investigator with the Toronto police and Karla Homolka.
I'm just going to play to see if this sounds familiar or if it jogs your memory
as to any conversation you may have had Had there been any discussion about Bain's disappearance? "Umm, I think the only thing that he ever said
was about her was that her boyfriend did it or something like that but there wasn't any real extensive discussion but he talked
about like all the women that were disappearing" Again that that was a conversation between
an investigator Tony Moore with the Toronto Police Service and Karla Holmolka. Does that conversation, is
that something you may recall saying that to Karla or talking about that? "Well, you know, she went down 'Paul did it.'
Catchphrases at trial — 'Paul did it,' 'It was Paul.' She's continuing right here, the fact
of the matter was, since I didn't pay attention to anything, I didn't watch the news back then, I
was too busy doing other things. I didn't pay attention but there's the profile is a serial killer pays attention to all the news media, this narcissistic personality, blah blah blah All that crap. I don't know anything about this case now, I don't
know if this guy did it, I don't even care I'm not a prosecutor, you know, do the right thing for
society blah blah blah I don't know if he did it, I don't have the facts to know if he did it, and
I certainly didn't know back then, so to say that for me to make, she's alleging that I made
a statement 'the boyfriend did it.' well, you know some cases I have followed because I'm in
jail and I've nothing else to do but watch the TV, but I weigh the facts, you know, I take, you know, like did OJ like do it for example, right You weigh the facts about whether he
did or not, he got off, so I think that's the law but I would have had to weigh the facts. I don't know
the facts in these circumstances so there's no way I can make a statement such as that. How could I say
he did it if I don't know the facts of the case So, no, she’s, she’s incorrect" And it may depend on when that conversation took place between between her and and that investigator "Well, Moore, wasn’t he back when that deal was made? "Moore, if I remember reading the transcripts that was a name from day one, when she signed her little twelve year deal, no polygraph required. Hey I'm I'm giving you the truth here, you guys
can prove me wrong, go down there ask her You're gonna get a no. I keep telling you but no one
does it. But on but you know so that's sounds like a conversation but that's what you
do, you want to blame it all on the other person You know, you paint that scenario.— psychopathic serial killer" Do you do you know Robert Baltovich? "I’ve seen him on, you know, on [inaudible] TV or whatever "Okay, so I purposely avoided this case." Right.
"I don't like this shit on my mind, do you know what I mean? Anything to do with... You know, unfortunately when Karla came out I watched and tried to discern truth, fact between fiction
a couple of years ago but otherwise, you know, I don't like to get into these things.
I've had 100 lifetimes of all her stuff and I don't want my mind poisoned with this
and this and this, so in this case I avoid it as much as possible But I have seen his face on the TV" Anything else you'd like to
tell us about this investigation? "No." Okay, the time now is 2:35 and we'll
conclude this portion of our interview "Okay."
