OKD Working Group - Documentation Subgroup Meeting 09-07-2021

[Music] well let's get started with the documents meeting i put a link to the uh agenda in the chat and um go ahead and put your name in the attendance there and this is our meeting for september 7th 2021 and take a look at uh the agenda real quick um [Music] and since diane is here uh there's a couple of items that were sort of hinged on diane from the last time that are there um yeah so take a look at real quick if there's anything you want to add to the agenda or remove from the agenda let me know now before we delve into everything um i was going to add in a note i have um and i think i told brian um a number i bruce about it i said is it bruce it's brian in this sorry there's too many bees here today sorry about that guys um i have a a resource that we can apply to cleaning up the github pages making them look a little more beautiful from that i use for the common site so we'll add that into the mix today too and then i was going to invite him to come to these meetings excellent all right well let's jump into what we have here um the and this actually i had skipped from last time we can take skip out we can be here since diane i was here so charter update and questions um i i was not around for the charter uh creation process today and these are more questions for you um when we look at the charter um there's uh some hold on let me see if i can pull it why don't you share put it up the url and put it up on the screen so we can yeah let me pull it up right here so it was a long time ago yeah and that's under the okay day community uh one so let me a couple of manipulations here here on my screen uh in okay great so if we look at the charter this was done last done in 2019 um and there's references here to uh stuff and um there's also um so my first question i guess is in regards to the cncf stuff it seems like this could be rewritten uh in a better way so do we want to actually take a stab um in the coming weeks at sort of rewriting this a little bit because it looks like there were some ideas that were tacked on like this sentence here seems like it was sort of tacked on at the end as an afterthought well just originally it went through um so so let's go back to the origins of um okd just for a second so um you know there's a couple couple of things is one is we did not push um openshift into this as a cncf project because um in the early days because origin was something um separate and then it morphed into a kubernetes thing um which was a cncf project which is why the reference here is to that um so some cncf reference should be in here because we are related to a cncf project aka kubernetes and a bazillion other things that the cncf has under its umbrella now um i think what um provide guidance and coordination for cncf pride the above paragraph the cnc for cncf projects working within the sig scope i think what we did we must have lifted this paragraph from a cncf governance document and it should we should change that to maybe sub projects just the word sub dash projects within the working groups scope because i think we started out as a sig and it never got updated so i'm perfectly okay with if you want to make today like just work to change that first first paragraph and make a create an issue for it and bring it to next week's meeting to make that correction um and take out the cncf reference in that first one i think that's totally fair game um i think the one the second line is is there be just because there are so many um engineers working in cncf projects and fedora projects and red hat projects to clarify that so i would leave that in there um that that to me actually resonates or what we're trying to clarify here so people don't come here and mistakenly think okd is uh sig or sub distribution or something's related to the cncf so for me it clarifies something that um you know for wandering fools who come in and land on this page and might think we are part of this cncf because we have things like k3 and you know other sub projects so that's kind of important i think one thing one thing i think we might want to do is to and i'll give it a stab sometime in the next couple days rework that paragraph so that it reads something along the lines although the okd working group is independent of both fedor and the cloud native computing foundation dot dot dot uh and then sort of it then incl phase into that second paragraph stuff so in other words sort of flip it so that it's sort of uh although we are independent we provide this and blah blah blah blah does that make sense yeah it make the proposal make log an issue just just do it and um we can hash it out i um you know i think if we change it to change we definitely need to change the word sig to working group and we definitely need to take cncf projects and change it to sub to projects you know sub projects or something like that like this docs group is a sub initiative of the okd working group the other thing is did we ever land on an official um word or words to describe the relationship to ocp there's been several floating around there was sister there was it's not upstream so what do we what do we want to say and i think that this should be i think was this a sibling yeah we're sort of trying to work towards getting to upstream someday maybe but uh i noticed that uh 4.8 is actually out yeah we were i remember vadim uh and christian mentioning that it was going to be soon and that it would be 4.8 would be the turning point but i think actually that didn't happen yeah no i don't unless they contradict me i don't think that's that's happening we originally were the upstream for ocp back in the day and then when we switched over to kubernetes kubernetes became the upstream and we became a sibling and i think sibling stream is the best way to describe it um you know other yeah a sibling stream yeah does that work for everybody else in the meeting here i want to make sure everyone feels included in that uh well it makes it makes sense i guess then the question is if everything that red hat does is in quotes open source close in quotes therefore ocp is as well then on paper it doesn't make sense to say that we are the open source version and then it becomes more confusing about exactly what is the relationship well sort of a branding issue i know but yeah that's what i was going to bring up right now openshift is no longer um yeah no longer one thing right and even as a product even ocp then there's okay and there's a bazillion different met you know managed service things and um yeah so oh what's open source about origin which is what's in the origin repo is what we are the the siblings dream of so i you know i the only thing that and the thing that the code that in i'm trying to figure out how to word this best because it's a wordsmith the origins um code runs on rel right so you you need an open source or you need an operating system that's open source to make an a true open source distribution of open shift and that's what okd is so it's not confusing yeah it's not confusing at all no no no no and it's only taken me eight years to get it out that way but it is really it is it i think the more interesting thing about this distribution is its relationship to fedora core os and that's what makes a true open source distribution of you know because otherwise you're constrained to rel and if someday they came up come out with a rel that's licensed in a way that could be open source then that then what bruce what you were describing yeah the code mate or that's in the origin repo may be open source but the thing that it runs that it's required one of the other required pieces components um isn't yet okay so that's uh that was a can of worms uh question but i think it provided at least a little bit of clarity on what we should put into this right now i mean the word upstream is uh i guess has well since version four it's never been true yeah absolutely yeah those and and what we use internally to describe this and there are other projects that are similar to this um that that are that that have a sibling stream approach as well and i think you're going to see acm and ocm advanced cluster management and open cluster management have some semblance of a similar thing going on but we'll we'll see how that all plays out too another thing that caught my attention in this was um uh the little statement that says um things that are out of scope would be initiation of new open source projects do you have any sense of what what the history of that item is um just for my eyeballs highlight that line on your screen there you go yeah so um i think we would not be for example kicking off as an okd working group our own version of say um a monitoring project like prometheus or that that what we're trying to do in this working group is work on okd and the okd bits and parts that's you know that was and i think that comes also from um some guidance we got from the cncf um reviewing what the cncf was doing and what some of the other projects were doing too is that we really wanted this group to focus on that on just okd so just picking up on that diamond if we go and create a okd operator project is that not new open source project well operators is a nice new can of worms and it has its own community and i think what we talked about at the last working group meeting and i tried to get um austin mcdonald who's coming should be back for our next working group meeting to come and talk about how to get it how to build a better relationship with the operator framework community which is a cncf project which is where if we were going to do something operator-ish we should work with them or be a sub-project of that community um and so that actually would be out of scope i mean we might be able to kick off a discussion group or a working group around it but if we were going to kick off you know okd operator framework or you know that sort of thing like that changed the technology that is in the operator framework or expanded upon it then we would go we we this is my opinion and i have lots of them um we all have them um that that we should go and work in the operator framework to do that work like you know sometimes you'll see rancher and the k3s folks go and work in the kubernetes place to get uh an extension to make something work with rancher those those kinds of things that that would be my clarification for and so for me and that this is for me because i think i was around definitely when this was being written and copied and pasted from other places that line still rings true um and and because we are so closely tied at the hip to ocp as a sibling stream um it's this difficult dynamic where we even inside of red hat push our people to contribute further upstream if they need something to um get into openshift like go put it in put make it available to everybody every kubernetes um or every operator framework person um rather than put it just an open shift and because just an open shift means so much more than just putting in creating an open source project and that probably didn't help at all but hey yeah but but i think there it's again complicated i think because uh there's a whole pile of operators that we have on a uh on an issue in okd um that we've been talking about for uh a long time and it's uh many of these operators on the ocp side uh seem to be part of openshift like serverless for instance is one that you know keeps coming up and came up through my email this morning and it looks like it's sort of uh at this point practically trivial to get it on to quay and it's sort of been that way for many months it looks like going through the the issue but it still hasn't happened so that so to me that is not a new project but is it a project that's an okd project or is it a serverless team project or serverless project well if you if you can get them to do it more power to you yep so but i think there's another issue here so there's the individual operators and where possible they should be in the community pub rather than any special one but there are certain number of operators which as bruce said are quite tied to the ocp product pipelines githubs the things that are in the registry.red hats sort of repo and then to make them appear we need another um build olm catalog which would be an okd project that we possibly wouldn't want to give to the operator framework team it's going to be the okd that replaces the red hat catalog in ocp so i think that if there's a distinction here that that i that i have in my head between an artifact like a container or a catalog um specific to our community or our ecosystem versus um a full-on project okay so that's that's that's i think what when initiation of a new open source thing so if we have to create an artifact such as a catalog or a container or an image or and we have to work with other people and coerce them into building it for us and maintaining it that's a different ball of wax than initiating a new open source project yeah i i guess it i guess it's equivalent to vadim's installer repo it's something that he had to do to make okd work but it's an asset in the okd project rather than a separate project yeah and there's a reason they call it artifact hub and the cncf because they're getting and at first i was completely resistant to that i wanted it to be operator hub you know because everything should be but then once they kind of explained it to me a little bit like the thick skull i have the idea of artifacts versus um simply operators operators are artifacts and there's helm charts are artifacts and those things are artifacts but this line that he's got highlighted here initiation of a new open source project is different to me so um yeah so that that's just around that one line but i i and what it means to me is that there is this a log jam around collaboration and build processes of those artifacts which is what i'm trying to get the i think i said in the last working group meeting is trying to find a person from the operator framework group to either come or tell us where to go not where to go but where to go which meeting to go to to get this work unlock jammed together and i've asked austin mcdonald to come think he's done with his class on the 10th which i'm not sure that so he should be able to come next to the next working group meeting so i i guess what i'm taking from this is the content of this current document if we don't understand it and we've been part of the community for a while but it suggests it does need wordsmithing to add clarity around the finer points that we've just discussed here so we do need to sort of make sure that it's from somebody new it actually reads and they can understand the final nuances of what the document means yeah and i agree with that brian i think that one of and the reason i brought this up was as okd becomes more solidified and there's some things i'll be talking about towards that i'll be bringing to the group towards the end of the meeting um that there's more of an interest there's an increasing interest in making okd more stable and better documented and as that happens the charter and the processes are going to become more and more um official and real as opposed to things were kind of wavy in the beginning and whatnot um so i think it would be good to revisit this um it sounds like folks have interest so um we can work at updating this and then seeing if that aligns with process and see if process needs to change with the larger group so an example of that is this this says here about membership that membership is actually determined by putting in a a uh issue and saying that you're a member and then that gets recorded in the members dot md file we've not done that for as long as i've been part of the group no one's actually done that now it hasn't been modified for two years right exactly so i think the question we'll have to come to the group with some larger questions on this even before we modify the document is do we want to still follow this process uh and if so then we need to vote or we need to um start doing that process or the larger group needs to vote to say no actually we want to change the charter because this process is too onerous or there's a better way or something like that and that that i think that's it the first stuff um editing out the cncf and the sig words that i think we can do in a quick issue and get that through whether or not we want to go to this membership.members.md format and start using this because we don't really currently vote on anything um we haven't and i think you're right we've hit a maturity level and an adoption level of okd out there in the world where we may want to do this we may you know we may decide you know there's something we need to do um that that requires a vote um beyond you know consensus in the the meeting we had we we are close to that i think um i think we're we're close to that so it's not a bad time to revisit it and if so then get everybody to do this that considers themselves an active member and that would be not a bad thing all right well then i'll add it to the agenda of the main meeting for next week just a little bit of time to introduce this issue and see what the main group thinks um and anyone else that's that's on this call i'll take a stab at some of the stuff up towards the top here if anyone else wants to as well yeah i would i would ask you to keep it as simple as change as possible you know um because this did go through a legal review and i'm hesitant to ask red hat legal to do much more than um look at it again quickly because that takes time all right okay oh sorry is it worth having a separate repo for five documents or should this be merged into the okd main repo or i think this is so that's an interesting point because we've got the community which is the the working group stuff and actually the meeting notes maybe it makes sense for the meeting because we talked about oh the meeting notes are in the hackmd but they could be in the okd.io or they could be in the community one it is kind of distributed and so yeah yeah i am not an expert on documentation or where things should go this is probably pretty apparent the hesitation i have about moving this out from the openshift repo itself is that the okd one the okd dot io repo where we're going to go on to the next topic here that we've now got that um is in a weird wonky um repo directory too it's openshift-cs which actually stands for customer success was the team that the website the team that worked on it with me and created it ages and ages ago used to be called the customer success team and now they're been changed their names ten times since then so i think it's more likely that the okay something has to give yes and and it's a bigger conversation um about where are you a solution might be to rename this to be the okdio in openshift community and to archive the one in openshift cs i think that would be my druthers but that then becomes the other problem of permissions to do anything um because then the openshift repo basically is i 99.9 percent red hat engineers will have permission to do anything um i there might be a few non-red hatters who are associated like with fedora and linux that might have permission i don't even know but i would say so that's the other thing so it's freedom versus um respect maybe how's that that brings up an interesting point though so if if we wanted to do the agenda items and have the chairs be able to modify the members file wouldn't the chairs all have to have yeah well i guess you could they could submit full request to the community repo but for me working on the agenda i wouldn't want to submit a pull request and work on the so that so either i would need access or not me being representative of anyone who's not part of the red hat those chairs would have to have access to that repo to the community repo so i think the bigger car i'd like to have a conversation about that with vadim in there because he is sort of our liaison to the engineers who have the privileges to do all of that um and that could be the next working group meeting and add that into the agenda about how can we this rag-tag bunch of repos how can we make them into a more respectable um and still have the ability to edit and do what we need to create a site underneath this yeah because because because i guess we want to consolidate where we can i mean but also like bring vadim's installer from his personal github into an open shift an okay d repo so yeah it sounds like we do need a discussion around our use of github which will come into all the permissions and ease of use and but i think it's worth just trying to remove i mean i don't see a point of having a repo with five documents in a document repo somewhere else where everything's kept together so and and maybe the answer is just to move all this under okay dot io and get move okd dot io out from openshift cs into its own github tree of things at this juncture and then that would be yeah and link i like that idea that that one sort of resonates with me okay so i don't we're we're at halfway through the meeting i do want to get to the other thing so i've added repo discussion added to the main meeting agenda um beta site brian do you want to give us an update um i think you were waiting for diane to publish some buttons oh okay diane actually gave me permission so i pushed the button myself but i actually put the link in so if you just click that link and let's take a look and this is the repo that um that brandon i'm hoping will be able to help us make pretty right so the first thing you've noticed i have totally removed all of the middleman i've totally removed bootstrap this is a pure um markdown site so everything about okd banner is now comes from markdown so we can go and change the home page we can change all the document it's all just marked down now in a git repo and if you go to the very little top to the left of the search and you'll see a little toggle switch so we've got light and dark mode and depending on the browser it should automatically pick up your system's preferences and just switch automatically um if you shrink it down so if you just move the browser to these just shrink it leftwards it is fully responsive so it it can be used on a mobile if you just keep going just keep going smaller and smaller just imagine it's like a a mobile phone size thing you'll find that the the sidebars vanish and then we get a hamburger menu and it just sort of it's all responsive um so think this is now a point that if people agree that they're like this we need to get people to test it play with it you notice i did move the menus from the top to the left because i found that getting around the place required two clicks now we can just expand the section so if you're looking for stuff you can just go and expand the section try and work out where stuff is um so my next point is to now populate it with um [Music] primarily what's on the original site and yeah so the question do we want a landing place for documentation i i'm not happy that we just jump out of the site and sort of abandon the okd site to go into documentation i'm just wondering do we need sort of a landing site with a link to the the documentation rather than just busting out click on documentation again just show me quickly what it does when it goes there um i mean i'm okay with it going to that other site because it means that michael burke keeps maintaining it the guy who's not on video right now um mostly because and because it's something that's generated oh yeah i'm not saying move that content here but i'm just saying do we want a a page that then gives you the option that this is going to the documentation site so a documentation landing page right again just jumping from the menu yeah go for it yeah that would probably be good um so yeah yeah i think i think you're right about that yes i'd agree with that um and the other question i have is these things that say temp content community adequate is there stuff to grab and put in there or do we need to create that well we were gonna you were gonna look up diane the um uh rights and responsibilities type stuff from other communities i believe that's on diana all right yes yeah that was uh because i i think the gist was that we wanted to get something that is um you know like the cncf has has a nice uh guidelines basically in code of conduct and and whatnot and i think that um you know having something there would be good but i mean we can search out stuff but you had volunteered if you're strapped for time we can i would actually add a code of conduct under help or somewhere community etiquette and then just we'll grab a code of conduct and put it in there but yes the other thing that we had from last week which was we're going to ask for you is do we need any legal notices copyright license i noticed some other open source sites have that in the footer i didn't know whether we had any legal requirements or we wanted to or go to the okay the existing okd site for a second supposedly there isn't anything on there either yeah i don't think so i i i don't want to make it anymore bd.io and then go to the very bottom because we're powered by github now yeah well i tell you the minute corporate corporate branding sees that logo at the bottom they're going to yell at me anyways because it's out of date and openshift online i don't even think is a branded thing anymore it's now something else it's gone no i think you're okay the way it is i actually like the way it looks um so the missing pieces that you need me to do is how to ask for help community etiquette um let's walk through it from the top what's what do you need to pull over still brian yeah i mean there's a lot of stuff i mean i was really focusing on the styling and getting the css right so i've not really been looking at the content i've just started moving the guides across i haven't actually pushed it yet so i've just started moving the guides which is under the getting started we've talked about moving the content from okd main repo there's that big readme there which has a lot of stuff in it so some of that stuff will come into the installation and i believe we want to talk to vadim in terms of what he thinks should be in this section and because he created that um initial thing um blogs so more or less i've moved across with their then it's the community stuff and it's the community contribution stuff which a lot of it i think we're gonna have to create from fresh um i want to put a section in about how to update the documentation so people know how to actually use mk docs and make it really easy to get people to do that stuff and for next week i would focus on that so that everybody gets to see it but i think if we run this by it looks great thank you for it first first and foremost um is there anything then if we get any um styling or css issues that you can't handle or you don't have time to handle that's what i think the third party contractor i have and i'm not a web front-end developer so if they want to come in and do it properly you know what i think you've done a very good job to be quite honest um let's what i would what i would say is um let's show it to the larger group next week get their feedback if they say oh that's ugly or that doesn't work or that's not you know working for them on their browser or something let's let the third brandon work on those issues for us we can even tag him he's got a luminous coder you'll see him in the okd repo and or maybe other repos every once in a while um so he could he could do those things but i think the stuff where we have to create the content he doesn't know enough about who we are and what we're doing um to do that other than maybe a grammar check checker and i think one thing we can do is vadim hasn't been able to show up to the last two main meetings at the next main meeting if he's there we can talk to him about splitting that stuff off of the okd repo uh read me uh and some of which will go into installation some of which will go into um you know nightlys whatever we want to call the you know the stuff related to the nightlys for 48 and whatever um so yeah i think the larger group and also seeing if we can pin down uh vadim to really give us his perspective on sort of breaking up the the installation instructions and stuff that's in that okay but but i mean i said once we've got the once i've got the instructions there the idea is then that this should become a very dynamic site everyone should just be able to add content quickly um and even if you just want to put us something on the heading that don't install 4.81 because it's busts this week and then next week when we fix it we can take the thing off the home page we can do things like that very very dynamically it's it's it's not difficult to do so excellent all right is there anything else on that before we move on we've got a handful of other things to get to um so there really is are we so we're saying there's really nothing in terms of uh like copyright or anything like that that needs to be um added to it if so then we can just uh strike that um and not worry about it yeah okay so delineation of resources for the working group and okd users we need to change that text at the top and give that to diane so we've been kind of putting that off as we worked on other things but i will work diligently on that if anyone else wants to chip in um i will do it as a as a document um maybe in the okd.io repo or something like that um and then this will be the text we put at the top of the google uh chat group that makes it clear that that's more for working group business and then also change the text in the slack channels um to point to hey create a discussion item and you know we mentioned this last time uh vadim has really been doing a great job of transitioning stuff to the discussion items that really aren't bugs they're not issues um they're discussion items because it's someone needs to know how to do something or something like that and i i i think we're narrowing in on a very efficient process so and yeah this is that item diane for um look into the working group guidelines and conflict resolution yeah now that you have if you get brian if you get the mk docs documentation in um i will grab those things and i will try by next tuesday to get that in so that people can see it and we can look at it as a group as well see if that works for folks and bruce i heard you you started to say something go ahead uh yeah and i was just thinking that uh something that i didn't see in our process that might be useful is with respect to docs okay which is that uh whenever in theory whenever there is some confused user that had to put in a discussion to get themselves out then the docs should be adjusted so that they wouldn't have been confused and that's sort of analogous to the the philosophy that uh whenever you find a bug manually you put in an automated test so that you don't get a regression yeah and i've been kind of doing that some you'll notice some of the things that pop up in the agenda are things related on like repeated questions um and so it like at the main meeting i'm gonna bring up uh the topic of single node clusters and also um uh bare metal because we're getting a lot of requests in terms of documentation and in terms of issues in regards to both of those and i think we need to flush those out because a significant number of okd users are looking for home lab single node cluster um you know and and and sort of the minimal installs and bare metal right and stuff like that so we need to up our game in terms of documentation because we're getting a lot of questions and a lot of issues that are based on sort of lack of documentation and some things that have not been tested in theory the single node stuff should be easier with 4.8 it is but i don't know if you caught that discussion uh the past couple days vadim was under the so in our faq it says that you can do a single node cluster by just setting in the install config the number of control plane to one and the number of compute to zero that actually doesn't work in four seven not in four seven right and no one really knew that because it hadn't actually been tested and someone brought it up as an issue the democracy actually i thought it was clear because uh like certainly in in all of charles single note installs that he's been doing for the last year uh you have to hack a bunch of things right and that's it it dawned on me like well yeah why are we why is charo having to do that and when there's this it hasn't been tested and sure enough that's the issue so it does work with eight i tried it actually earlier today uh and last night so it works on four five uh it does not work on four six or four seven it does work on four eight so we'll need to update the docs on that and up and up our game in terms of testing uh to catch those cases yeah well it's actually a feature in 48 right i'm surprised i never tried it on four five because i don't think it was a feature then it wasn't a feature and that was actually something for ocp that was touted as a feature was single node clusters right um but yeah back to your original point yes i think each i think it's an iterative process that each time we come across something and folks should if i don't catch it if there's like something in the chat or email or you hear it someplace else that we're lacking in documentation or we're lacking in testing of something like please bring it to our attention so that we can add that in as a test as a as well it's tricky because you get uh hidden assumptions right like i sort of assumed that everybody knew this thing that that uh i originally learned a long time ago from charles and i'm wrong right exactly and that happens to me a lot of times in reverse oh yeah and i appreciate that about you bruce i you've brought some things to people's attention over the you know past year or two that's been like well this is supposed to work uh and it's not or you know it says here in the documents yeah and that's been really helpful okay so uh we're punching again on name and scope of the installation doc because vadim wasn't at the last meeting i'll put it on the agenda again for the next meeting um so inclusive language update brian you're sort of hinging on the folks that yeah so i have a little little update on that i don't know if brian if you've gotten any um feedback from them i think we closed that ticket yeah that goes away when we switched to mk docs we have to rename the master branch to main when we do that switch over but i'm making sure that all the content that's in there is appropriate so once we do the switchover we rename them up the master branch we set the cname tag redirect it and then that ticket goes away yep i think that thank you for summing up and the other thing is i know that will yuri's in on european time will gordon just went on pto but um yuri is um waiting for us just to say when we want to repoint the site over to that so it's just a dns name change so um as soon as we get our content in there and group approval we can make that happen and it you know whatever it takes 48 hours once the the foldover goes and the sooner the better in my humble opinion so um and that's why getting if if we need brandon to give you a hand brian um just ping me and chat and we'll make this okd middleman thing go away very far away the one thing i it should probably be pointing out for folks that are watching this is that when we say that the ticket will be closed that doesn't mean that we're going to stop at least that the documents group isn't going to stop like continuously scanning docs for things that need to be made inclusive and we're not gonna you know and in fact this came up i think in what we put at the top of the google discussion group and at the top of the slack may want to reference the code of conduct slash community guidelines stuff um and have a reference in there to the inclusive language because i am noticing in the chat there's a lot of hi guys hi guys hi guys and although there's the the cncf has that bot that like says maybe knocks you down yeah right you know it would be better to actually have something ahead of time not after the fact yeah yeah so so i don't want anyone to get the impression that we're just gonna be done with it after this um it's some it's an ongoing process right to continuously make sure docs are up to that standard um uh creep build dock outline for vadim this is gonna be brian and i um we're gonna hold off until the beta site is ready until vadim can attend a meeting and we can and and and vadim has time he's in incredibly pressed for time right now and um so we have to i think brian and i will do most of the work and then just run it by the team uh upgrade path notations bruce that was yours uh that was a discussion last time yeah and i don't even remember what that was referencing so the idea was that um we would actually uh flesh out upgrade pads because there was you did find some documentation all right right on upgrade pads and and could we turn that into a like a table or something and can we better understand what red hat meant and right well it was partially just defining what the notations meant but um there are some related things like some things that have come up recently is that uh in okay there's there's there's basically three places where a version of fcos comes into play um and at least if like the way i build things on uh vsphere um i start off with a version of f cos that's in a uh where the iso is mounted to to initially boot the hosts with and then that one pulls down um a version that's referenced uh in in the uh uh the uh initial uh ignition sequence and then that uh assuming that boot and everything bootstrap and everything makes it up then it pivots to a current version right but actually interestingly enough vadim uh last week in a conversation was said to someone well we're not really using a version anymore because it gets modified and it's a rebuild basically of the mod so it's interesting for folks that don't know the way the ins the okay installer works it actually downloads a version of it you started with your initial version of fcos which is downloaded directly if you're using ipi or you have to manually provide if you're doing upi that gets booted into then a new version of fcos gets created with tweaks for okd and then it boots into that version and then there's more stuff that gets installed on top of that right so yeah uh and so it's not even it the documentation needs to be clearer about what you're starting with and what you're going to end up with because the question that sparked vadim to respond was that someone asked like well if when i do the um os rpm tree uh command to look at the version it doesn't jive with what is it is it version that's out there like available for downloading uh you know in the end and right in the end right and then it's a referencing some machine config something or other but along the ways depending on which versions you get some of them don't work right uh and and there's various things that can happen like when you when you go from uh one major release know like 32 to 33 to 34 to 35 whatever then you can get into things where the keys don't work so so when it downloads it they can't confirm it because it's you know they've updated the keys and they've just done downgraded haven't we because we have so many issues with networking i believe we went back back a level right network manager yeah right yep gotta love the uh yeah so there's so in instances where uh now i i think i think that those things are made into the frequently asked questions of uh hey this version of fcos doesn't work for these versions of okd right so slowly slowly we seem to be improving those sorts of things it might not that sort of stuff that would be useful in the uh installation information or a given release is what things you have to use when it matters yes yeah absolutely so this is a question to michael is there any way we could get a versioned set of documents for okd like they do for ocp because we only ever get the latest so if anybody's currently on an earlier version we couldn't put that information in good point like burke are you still around he's on the street he's there yep he's here he doesn't have an answer he doesn't like between four seven and four eight or you know can there be different you know uh minor version uh document loads i don't see why not we do that for three yeah because i'll hit each version for three right yeah because if you look at the list we've got all the threes then we certainly just yeah just can you look into that for us and i will do that generate that that would be pretty bloody awesome um and that would but yeah then we'd have to review them too but but also isn't it time that we removed some of the threes because they're no longer i would like to grandfather some of them or grand grand grandparents some of them i guess well i think but i don't think red hat supports any of them at this point no there's just three moments in the wild that's the problem um right yeah yeah michael is is 311 still documented anywhere for ocp yes they're still supporting yeah i've just looked at the list we go back as far as 1.2 we could take some of them out um what is on the list um michael for open shift how far back do they go for open shift good question maybe a moment uh it goes back to 3.0 yeah so if we could make maybe what we need to do is send a notice to the first find out if you can add more variations on four point x and then do a notice to the mailing list saying okay we're going to grandfather the documentation prior to 3.0 we're going to and stay in line with whatever openshift has for documentation otherwise use the wayback machine um and and then clean it up just do a notice and that from the okd working group docs and socialize it at the next these ideas at the next working group meeting next week jamie will do and say that this is our our intention is to do this and if anyone has any objections um let us know and michael just just to sorry diane i didn't mean to cut you off go ahead michael just to get a sense do we have the so right now the way things work is you're generating with a script the okd docs off of the ocp docs and just changing the names out we put in a ticket for like a minor tweak here or there can we actually put in a ticket for like a new page to be created or anything like that or is it or are we just being limited to tweaks of what gets generated no definitely a new page okay entire books assemblies inside of a book don't tell them that that's a new project right there an okd book everyone else no it's an artifact all right well actually you know there are a number of books out there that that are i don't know it could be okd books yes that uh are sort of you know like free for download red hat pdfs yeah or buy it from o'reilly or whatever uh those i don't think have been updated what what's what's that michael i'm sorry by books i mean if you look at the docs.okd.io site everything in that uh table of contents on the left side what's new architecture installing we call those documentation uh selected version yeah look at that these are all books right because these are gonna be separately accessed right exactly right um if anybody wants to write an okd o'reilly book let me know and um if you have that much time on your hands uh don't tempt me because i actually to get into that with you but i think that's another whole life work yes uh i want to close out we've got one minute left just so folks know we were approached by the red hat team um that's uh basically building off of uh kubrt uh for the virtualization stuff in ocp and they want it to work better on okd uh so we will be talking at the main meeting uh about this next week but if this is going to come into play in terms of documentation making sure that we um uh promote and encourage and test documentation relating to using uh cooper uh for virtualization on okd so just want to throw that out there real quick does anyone else have any last minute things uh before we sign off we have one minute left uh they read the outreach to the mailing list about uh pruning the older versions whose action item is that uh that's mine i'll go ahead and take that okay thank you um what i would say about that is michael burke if you can let us know um that it is possible officially that it is possible to add the four point x um versions i will do that um then send the email out will do michael and i will uh convent all right uh we are at time thank you so much folks and uh appreciate all of your hard work see you next time all right thanks brian take care big time

Channel: OpenShift

Views: 81

Rating: 5 out of 5

Keywords: OpenShift, Kubernetes, OKD

Id: D3yXlXzzMi8

Length: 59min 14sec (3554 seconds)

Published: Mon Sep 27 2021