October 18, 2015: Sunday Forum: "To Heaven and Back" with guest Dr. Mary Neal

Mary just said the flowers are beautiful and yes they are we just celebrated the 50th anniversary of Linda recline service here at the Cathedral she's a director she directs our altar Guild and our flower Guild and uh so the the the members of the altar Guild have really pulled out all the stops of the flowers this week so um enjoy them and take a look at all the chapels in the cathedral while you're here so good morning and welcome to everybody both in the building and in cyberspace I am the dean I'm Gary Hall the dean of the cathedral and it is my great pleasure to welcome you to this conversation with Dr Mary Neal uh the author of to heaven and back a doctor's extraordinary account of her death Heaven angels and life again just a couple of logistics Dr Neal is going to read from her book a passage from her book to Stark and she and I are going to be in conversation for a while and then there will be cards being passed out among you uh NAD is standing over there if you want a card Nat is the guy to look to to get you one we will collect the cards um uh as they're ready and then after the last 20 minutes or so we'll really be Mary responding to questions from you all then afterwards we have copies of the book for sale in the Bookshop which is very at the very West End of the building uh to your left on this level and Mary has agreed to sign books so they're available in the Bookshop Mary will be signing them afterwards and this really is a wonderful morning for all of us um Dr Mary Neal is an author and board certified Orthopedic spine surgeon born and raised in Michigan go Blue she graduated from the University of Kentucky different School UCLA Medical School go Bruins and completed her orthopedic surgery training at the University of Southern California Dr Neil Serge is the director of spine surgery at the at the University of Southern California and is now in private practice she lives and works in Jackson Hole Wyoming a very different biome from Los Angeles yes it's I've I've had the pleasure of meeting Dr Neal before and I read this book I read this book several months ago and I've kind of gone over it in the last couple days she has an amazing story she's an engaging person and we're going to be in conversation about this book and we hope you join us so welcome thank you very much it's a privilege and thank you for being here chapter 10 death on the river even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death I shall fear no evil for you are with me your rod and your staff they comfort me Psalm 23 4. when I first realized that I was pinned in the waterfall I did not panic and I did not struggle but I desperately try to get out of my boat by using some standard techniques I repeatedly and forcefully tried to reach the grab Loop of my spray skirt but the power in the water forcing my arms Downstream was too great and my attempts were laughable I tried to push against the foot braces I tried to jiggle the boat I thought about my family and desperately tried to raise my head out of the water in search of air but I quickly realized that I was not in control of my future God had saved me more than once in the past so I once again reached toward God and asked for his divine intervention I did not however demand rescue I only knew that he loved me and had a plan for me and I asked solely that his will be done and at the very moment I turned toward him I was overcome with an absolute feeling of calm peace and of a very physical sensation of being held in someone's arms while being stroked and comforted I felt like I imagined a baby must feel when being lovingly caressed and rocked in his mother's bosom I also experienced an absolute certainty that everything would be fine regardless of the outcome I thought about my husband and my young children about the Longs and about my life on Earth I thought about my relationship with God I was grateful that he was holding me and marveled at the intense physicality of this feeling I knew with an absolute certainty that I was being held and comforted by Jesus which was initially quite surprising to say the least as I am just an ordinary person and one of billions on the planet I do not currently have the words to explain how it happens but at the time I understood perfectly how it could be true that Jesus was there holding and comforting me yet simultaneously and similarly could be present anywhere else on the Earth holding any other person who called for his help as he held me Jesus Took me through a short review of my life and if I had had any preconceptions about death it would have been to assume that a Life review would be the stereotypical image of one's life flashing before their eyes but that is not what my experience was I was shown events in my life not in isolation but in the context of their unseen Ripple effects well is it while it is easy for all of us to see the impact our words or actions may have on our immediate surroundings it is often very difficult and nearly impossible to see the impact of events or of our words spoken when seeing dozens of times removed and this is profoundly powerful through this experience I was able to clearly see that every action every decision and every human interaction impacts the world and far more significant ways than we could ever be capable of appreciating as one of I'd imagine this is a profound part of my experience it also stimulated my recollection of a long forgotten poem that hung on the wall in a in the home of a childhood friend I had absent-mindedly read that poem each and every time I entered their house and now fully appreciated its words the poem was Footprints in the Sand and spoke about how God walks next to us and never leaves us during this journey of life although I felt God was present and holding me I was still entirely conscious of my predicament and of my surroundings I was able to feel the current pushing and pulling at my body and feel the pressure and weight of the water I could not see anything or hear anything but I was acutely aware of everything that was happening around me and within me I was comfortable calm and marveled at God's presence when I no longer felt myself trying to breathe I assumed that I would die my thoughts are turned to my husband and my children and as I pondered what would become of them without my presence as a wife and mother I was deeply and profoundly reassured yet again that they would be fine even if I died as I waited under the water I thought about and analyzed my life I thought about its course my choices my Joys and my regret regrets what about everything eventually I thought about how bored I was I was tired of thinking and I was tired of waiting I was ready to get on with the journey whatever that was meant to be and with the reassurance that all would be okay regardless of the outcome I found myself impatiently urging God to hurry up so we sort of left you there you're going to have to get the book and read what happens next um can you say a little bit uh just the back story of that trip to Chile and why and how you found yourself in that in that predicament and I are Avid kayakers we've kayak for many many years throughout the U.S and with kayak internationally a number of times of ours are professional boaters and run kayak and rafting trips to South America and for a number of years we had talked about going with them and when my youngest child who is now a grown-up here today was old enough for us to leave the country without our kids we decided to go to Chile and kayak with them so we spent a week of kayaking wonderful rivers and on what was going to be our final day of kayaking anyway we had decided to kayak a section of river that was well known for its waterfalls and these are not uh the Great Falls these are not Niagara Falls they're not crazy but they're drops of 15 to 20 feet which were well within our scale skill set and quite reusable you would have to navigate those we were in kayaks individual kayaks yes and my husband actually wasn't on the river with me that day he had for the first and last time in his life had terrible back pain and was uh off reading actually in the sunshine and so I went down the river with these friends of ours who are professional voters and it was with them that we went over the first few drops and had no problems when we approached the first major drop we had selected a smaller shoot or a smaller part of the waterfall to go through but another kayaker had sort of bobbled her way and and was stuck or pinned sideways in the drop and this is a high volume high flow River it's not the sort of thing it's not like a lazy river where you can turn around and go Upstream and so I was already in the current and committed and so I was then forced to Veer over and go over the main part of the waterfall and that is the beginning of this Great Adventure and just so that if so can you say just a bit about how you came out of that whole experience I mean after you died and then were rescued well I was never actually rescued in in that sense the current eventually pulled my body over the front deck of the boat and it was only as the body was flushed out Downstream that I was pulled to the side of the river and I absolutely don't believe in coincidence but the only reason I was even pulled to the side of the river was because the bright red life jacket that actually was my husband's that I wore that day because he hadn't been kayaking was ripped off in the current popped up Downstream and one of the fellas who had been trying to recover my body saw it and thought that he might want it back and it was only in grabbing a life jacket and starting to swim to Shore that he felt my body hit his feet so he was able to grab my body and pull me to the side of the river it's a very long story from there to my return to Wyoming but afterward I had multiple injuries I mean I came over the front deck of the boat and so as that happened my legs bent back on themselves and I'm an orthopedic surgeon I know what broken bones feel like and I I was very aware and uh very much in the moment I even when I was under the water and knew that I'd been under the water too long to still be alive to still be conscious I never had the experience of being conscious and then unconscious I had the experience of being conscious and then more conscious and so I was very aware of everything and I could feel my knees bending back I could feel the bones breaking and I remember at one point thinking okay I must be screaming and I would take a moment to do a little self-assessment exam and realize that no actually I felt great I wasn't screaming and I wasn't in pain and I actually despite having multiple broken bones and torn ligaments and all sorts of problems I didn't have pain for almost two weeks during this time when I felt that I was neither here nor there now obviously I mean one of the book is about the process about the transformative effect that this experience had on your life you did have a faith life before this right and so can you say a little bit about your your faith experience before this event and your faith experience afterwards I was raised in the Midwest and like a good Midwestern kid of the 1950s I went to Sunday school and in fact I have a grandfather great-grandfather and his father before him who were ministers and I did go to Sunday school I did you know go through confirmation and accept Christ as my own and on the surface one would think that I should have had a deep Faith Life but I think that one of the really beautiful aspects of this experience is that I was a very what I think a very typical Christian not only then but still today in that I went to Sunday school I took my kids to Sunday school and I certainly would have said that yes I believe in God and yes I hope there's something more yes I hope it's all true but I really think that it was more of a an intellectual thing I certainly bought into the idea of being a good person and trying to live an honest ethical life but that's very different from cruelly accepting Christ as the center of one's life it's very different and so I wouldn't certainly in no way have been described as a zealot I mean I think I I saw my faith life as a nice adjunct to my real life but like most people who are well educated accomplished driven you know God and Faith Life was here and everything was great as long as you know what God wanted was in line with what I wanted it's like asking for his will to be done I've often said that when I ask for God's will to be done that was the first time I ever meant it because we all say the Lord's Prayer we all you know ask for things but we all kind of feel like we know the best answer to a prayer to to his will and so my faith life at the time I would have described as pretty typical I would describe it as an emotional Christian meaning when things are good it's easy to have faith when things aren't so good your faith is shaken which is very very different because one of the things this experience has done for me is absolutely transformed that hope that God's promises are true or that Faith which is similarly still based I think on circumstances or perhaps based on other people's experience but it transformed it into an absolute trust that God's promises are true and trust is different trust is really a daily choice and it's with that trust that I think you can transcend circumstances your sermon this morning talked about happiness and happiness is really an emotion based on circumstances when things are good great when things aren't then you're not happy whereas the joy that comes from a Faith Life joy that comes from a trust that God's promises are true is something that transcends every circumstance and that's what my faith life is now it's not a Faith Life it's a sense of knowing and trusting it's a trust life rather than a faithfulness it is it's a trust life and it and that trust life I believe is really what the goal of every Christian or every person pursuing a Faith Life should be because I believe that every person can experience God's presence in their own life and every person while they not only do they not want to have a near-death experience um not every person is going to have that sort of experience but I absolutely believe that everyone can have the transformative aspect of that experience now for those of you that haven't read the book this is not just a book about a near-death experience or death experience and a happy ending this is also a book about some other real suffering in your life right and so you know your sons can you say a little bit about your son Willie and how you came to sort of work through that given your given given this new uh orientation and Trust right my oldest son was a a remarkable young man and when he was very young four or five we were in conversation one day and I made some comment about well when you're 18 something and at four or five he looked at me and he said but I'm never going to be 18. and I don't know how many of you are parents probably most and it it pierced me he said it in a way that pierced me and I said what they were jokingly I thought it was odd and he looked at me said but mama you know that's the plan and that was it never said another word but I never really forgotten that and during my near-death experience when I was my kids would say before I was kicked out I I was given information some of the work I still had to do and at that time I was told of his coming death and given expectations with regard to my expected response to his death and how I would uh during that time help people turn toward God instead of a way and help people not only see the beauty that had occurred in his life but really the beauty in his death and so when I was sent back and during the 10 years between the time of my near-death experience and his eventual death I woke up every day wondering if that would be the day and it certainly changed the way I parented but it was interesting because eventually he was killed he was hit by car and I I was as emotionally devastated as any parent would be and I've often been asked well gee did this experience help you did it comfort you and my answer is yes and no because again it goes back to this trust I knew on any given day if that were the day that my son was killed that it was part of the plan for his life and while certainly every day I hope that the plan would change I had an absolute Trust that if it did not change there would be incredible beauty that came not only of his life but of his death and again going back to these unseen Ripple effects real time we can almost never see the beauty that comes of an event but the further an event is in the past of course we're able to look at events and see the incredible beauty even when at the time we thought they were terrible and so I had an absolute Trust that there would be a great beauty that came out of his life and his death I also knew from my own experience that he wouldn't have wanted to come back I certainly didn't want to come back and I knew that there really is life after death and I absolutely believe that God sends his most gentle Messengers to come and collect this when our time is up and I'm sure that Willie will be there waiting you know what took you so long and so even on my most sad day and I I loved him deeply I still love him deeply I could you know cry today certainly sure um even on my most sad day I can absolutely claim that I have an absolute Joy and an absolute trust in God's presence God's love and God's plan for all of us I want to ask you and I want to remind people first of all if there are cards with questions on them if you want a card NAD over there has them and we should begin collecting them um uh because I know probably a lot of questions two questions about being a physician and I'm just following up on what you just said so you interact with people a lot uh in your work so how is this how is this whole experience and your your new attitude towards God and the world how's that how has that impacted your your practice and your engagement with with your your patients and colleagues knowing that there really is a god that is real and present and active in our world today every day that there really are Miracles that occur every day changes everything about life not just my practice but everything about life because even if all you do is accept that there really is life after death it changes the importance of every moment because all of a sudden truly every moment matters every decision every action every human interaction matters and so it can't help but change everything and one of the ways that it has changed my interactions with other people including in my practice is that first of all I know that even the devastating injury that brought the patient to my office is part of the plan for their life and that there will be great beauty that comes of it and so instead of seeing AI an accident or a disability as something terrible that oh we just have to try to make the best of this I truly believe that it is an incredible opportunity and I'm able to work with patients to see it as an opportunity and as a result I have story after story after Story of patients whose lives were dramatically changed I mean I live in Wyoming these are working people coal miners Ranchers and their life is done they don't have education to rely on they don't really have any other skills yet I have seen people go on to do things they would never have dreamed possible because they flipped the switch to realize okay God really has something in mind for me that is greater than what I can imagine so it's changed the way I interact with them I certainly never prayed for my patients before I I do pray for them I pray for myself but it changes human interaction because I also know that God loves every single person as much as I know God loves me and so it changes the way I interact with people who I might not otherwise really like either I don't agree with them or whatever it is about them but it changes my view of them because I know that God is within them does that make it hard as a surgeon I mean I've talked to a number of Surgeons about what it means to cut into a person and sort of how you have to sort of abstract yourself a little bit from the reality of the person if you're going to do that and yet you also engage them more and so you're still doing the the hard physical stuff of surgery and at the other hand you're also engaging them as people does that ever feel like a contradiction or is that all fit into a holistic I don't think it's a contradiction because I I understand what you're saying about separating yourself from the individual but I would say that I am now completely the opposite I feel like I am entirely a part of them and I don't actually feel like it's me anyway I feel like in any situation we are all the physical people who are uh doing the work but we are not the ones that are responsible really for the work or the outcomes I mean when I was being resuscitated I was dead I mean I I've been without oxygen for 30 minutes I was purple waxy fixed and dilated pupils the people who resuscitated me have certainly seen dead bodies many times I was dead they teach water rescue and part of it is exactly what you're saying which is divorcing yourself from the individual and just going through the protocol and doing the work despite having done that for many years they were never able to divorce themselves and it's a long story but that is absolutely the only reason why I came back and they're the first to say that they were physically the hands doing the CPR but they had absolutely nothing to do with what actually happened and so when I operate on people it's really very much the opposite for me now necessarily think about oh hey this is my next door neighbor but I very much feel that I am part of who they are what they are really something uh one I have one more question and then I'm going to collect the cards um we talk a lot in the current world about science and religion you're like the poster child for Science and religion I mean being an orthopedic surgeon is about as hard-headed hard-headedly scientific as you can be but you also have this deeply transformative religious experience so how do you hold those two things together in your mental intellectual spiritual life I am definitely a scientist and I'm also cynical and skeptical and everything else but having said that what is clear to me is this division between science and spirituality is entirely artificial I think that as scientists we create this division because science is its own faith it's its own religion and I think that spirituality for most people is very frightening partly because it's a control issue because we want to control things we we think that we can control things we try to Define things so that we can put it in a box and that's what science does and scientists think that people of Faith want to try to control science but they're not exclusionary science is very good at trying to understand the how of everything well spirituality isn't trying to define the how spirituality talks about the why of everything and so they're really not incompatible in fact I think they're really very much compatible and they very much augment each other I mean spirituality is not trying to to answer the same questions but how does the scientist in you account for the fact that after 30 minutes without oxygen you should have been brain dead right I mean right so I mean I should have been dead I should have been brain dead and I should not be here talking to you today right and so in some ways your experience transcends what we know of physical reality 100 and I spent many many months trying to come up with an alternative explanation if I were going to accept my own experience as real and true it also meant that I accepted what I've been told is Real and True including the coming death of my oldest son which obviously I would like to Discount and I spent many many months trying to come up with a purely scientific explanation and that's a whole hour discussion in itself but in the end none of those explanations were valid and in the end I I concluded that my experience had been outside the bounds of medicine outside the bounds of science but when you really talk about okay what does that mean and I would go back to say that with scientific discovery if you're going to be intellectually honest you have to recognize the limitations I mean we don't know much in fact the more we learn about the human body the more we learn about environmental issues and the balance of ecosystems the more really we recognize we don't know I mean we you know we we just scratched the surface and so I think ultimately if you be if you're intellectually honest about science you do what I do which is live in the gray Zone there is a huge area that is not understood and most of us aren't comfortable with that but I've become very comfortable recognizing that there's a great deal that we don't know there's a great deal we'll never know and that's okay I mean we don't need to know everything our need to know is a need to control I uh I can keep asking questions all day but um um unfortunately other people want to get into this conversation so thank you Mitchell um how do you respond to the skeptic who says you had a psychological trauma not a spiritual experience right and what I would really say is I challenge each of those people to actually go and look at the literature and look at the data as I said it would take an hour to go through all of the all of the information but the fact is the handy explanations the currently popular one is oh gee it's just a release of neurotransmitters and if you just look at that one explanation what you've what you discover is that indeed there are particular neurotransmitters that can stimulate a hallucination that has some Crossover with near-death experiences but when you look at the physiology of a Dying brain first of all those neurotransmitters are released in a level in a concentration that is absolutely toxic to brain cells and the most sensitive cells in the brain to that type of toxicity are the very cells that create memories and one of the most profound things about near-death experiences is that the memory is a different quality people with near-death experiences recall the details as precisely and accurately 70 years later as they do when it's happening it's as though we're experiencing or describing something real time in the present tense instead of a memory and so when you look at the physiology of all the various explanations you start to realize wait a second it doesn't quite work you can't have toxic levels of neurotransmitters released and death of memory cells yet have these incredible memories so for each one of these explanations there are clear problems that's really interesting right I didn't I so my real answer to the people who want to throw out any of these explanations is that's fine you know just look at the research my own feeling is I never really care if anyone believes me or not because that's it's not my job to try to convince anyone that's not the Mandate I've been given all I really hope is that people are challenged to go out and prove me wrong I mean I would say for anyone in here my real hope is that you go home and say ah she seems nice enough but I I don't believe it I'm gonna look at my own life I'm either going to do the research to show that her experience wasn't real or more importantly I'm going to look at my own life because I don't believe God's there God may have worked in her life and oh you know Reverend Hall like well of course because I mean he's who he is but I absolutely know that God is real and present working in every single person's life but you have to look and that takes time and effort that leads to another question that someone asked which is and I imagine you must know a lot of people who've had these experiences who are not Christian so this person asks do other people do people of other faiths non-christians have near-death experiences and if so is Jesus has Jesus been a part of their experiences to the extent that you know near-death experiences are actually really common which is one of the things about them that eventually you have to put some credibility into the experience if for no other reason then they are remarkably common they occur across ages they occur across faiths they occur across cultural realities the details varied a little bit I mean I for example am absolutely moved by color and flowers and the Aromas of flowers and that's what I was shown and I believe that God presents to us the experience that we will understand if I heard beautiful music listen to country western music I wouldn't really appreciate Mozart whereas my husband of course will hear beautiful beautiful music so God presents to us I think different realities at least in that initial phase present throughout different cultures and different faiths and what's interesting to me is that 75 percent of atheists who have a near-death experience encounter someone they identify as Jesus atheists guess who experiences Jesus the least Christians wow that's interesting it is interesting very excited about why that is or is that any thought about why that is I'd like to say that I know what I know and I know my own experience it has been said by others that you know God gives us what we need not what we want uh so you don't need I mean a Christian doesn't need Jesus in the way that someone who is and might perhaps uh this question well you these are very these are very detailed questions some of them while you were on the other side did you see and or have a reunion with loved ones in your family who had died before you came back I did yes and no I was immediately greeted by a group of people Spirits beings I'm never really quite sure what to call them because those words mean different things to different people and I absolutely know that if I'd taken the time to look at them and actually look at them I would have recognized them as people who were important in my life circle whatever that means it sounds a little goofy but people whether it was a grandparent I'd never met or people who who are important in my my life circle and it's difficult to explain but I I was in a hurry they I was going down this incredible path to this great Dome structure of sorts that I knew was the point of no return and it was so alluring and exploding with this unbelievable love of God and all I actually wanted to do was get down the path and so with these people you basically blew these people I did it's terrible you know I feel a little guilty and if I had any knowledge that I was actually going to have to come back I would have taken the time to actually look at them and say okay you know taking more mental notes but I did kind of blow them off it was like come on so I did at the time have an absolute knowledge though or appreciation that they were people that had known me and loved me as long as I've existed and I knew that I had known and loved them but beyond that you know I I'm kind of embarrassed that I didn't you're task oriented even in yeah you know what yeah I am a concrete thinking person I am very linear um how did Angels appear to you what did they look like and which ones met you during your experience and how do they appear to you now I'm always a little hesitant to use the word angel or being or because again some people have very rigid definitions for what an angel is and you know how many angels there are on that sort of thing what I will tell you is that these uh people that greeted me uh were so incredibly um loving it was as though they were wearing they did have a physical form head arms legs they were wearing these Robes of sorts that are very difficult to describe because they were explodingly brilliant and they were exploding with not only a Brilliance that really came from within it wasn't like a light was shining on them uh but exploding with God's love and and it was as though I was was looking at the northern lights in that um it was very the edges were a little indistinct and again color is important to me and and they were just uh every these robes were were brilliantly sort of translucent or pearlescent with not bright colors but sort of colors and it was as though it was the essence of the color and and more than anything there was really a shift in time Dimension not quite sure what the words are but there was also a shift in uh senses you know here we have five senses and that's it whereas there it it was different I could uh understand them or understand the robes and and the robes were almost like they were woven out of fibers of Love which doesn't really make sense but uh it's difficult to explain and and I've lost the rest of the question but my question was do you have continuing experience right here and um I don't see the spiritual world is here and our world is here I think that uh the spiritual world is all around it it's as though we're living in a two-dimensional world and the spiritual world is that Cube surrounding us right and I don't know if the fourth dimension is the right terminology but I believe that we are in the midst of it and so I do think that there is crossover and what allows that crossover I don't know and some people definitely have a greater sensitivity to the spiritual world I can't say that I do but I also am very linear I'm very concrete you know Isaiah can't can't delve into that I gotta focus on your focus is on doing what I have to do it but I do think that there is crossover and why God allows an angel or a you know Guardian Angel to come and sit next to us on the airplane to to help us in a time of need or why you know someone comes in and out of your life or I absolutely believe that angels cross over I don't know what controls that but the other thing is that I at this point have heard hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of stories of people who have either had a a Spirit come to them in a dream or they've had an interaction with an Angel that you have to start believing it even if you're cynical at your core if you hear the same thing again and again and again and again and again there's got to be some truth to it and so I absolutely believe that Angels come in and out of our life it's biblical and I don't think it happened just then God is alive today present today and in our lives today agreed um which that leads to another question do you believe that the dead can see and interact with the living in an in a short answer yes for many of the reasons I just talked about I do think that there is this crossover I don't think that you know the dead are hovering over us having said that um I'm absolutely convinced that you know they have work to do and I don't know what it is but I know that they have work to do I know that they are aware of what is happening here on Earth and happening in our lives um and I know that from things that has have happened in my own life and I know that from things that have happened in other people's lives and they've told me about it so I do think that they're around so when people lose a loved one oftentimes they just think well but you know they won't be there to walk me down the aisle or they won't know that I've given birth to this beautiful child all sorts of Life events but they really do they are aware of what's happening again it's not that this is God's world and this is the earth world it's all the same one last question I I could go on all day but I have to get back to work um in 15 minutes um do you do you feel um differently about medicine today do you believe you're a stronger doctor after this experience and a more integrated person being a doctor is one facet but I think that one of the failings for most of us is that we can personalize our life and I'm a doctor and so I act like a doctor here I'm a businessman so I hate this business and then I go to church or I go to my kids school or go I go home and we're different people in different settings but one of the things this has done for me is to realize that no it doesn't work that way I am exactly the same person in every setting because once you realize that it's your heart it's what's in you that actually is you I mean you have to be that person in all settings well this has really been fascinating Mary is Dr Mary Neal her book is to heaven and back we have copies uh out in the bookstore and she has agreed to sign them this has been a fabulous conversation thank you thank you very much and thank you all for being here [Applause] it was great foreign

Channel: Washington National Cathedral

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Keywords: Washington National Cathedral, Washington DC, cathedral, music, architecture, choir, organ, singing, tourism, tourist destination, united states, To Heaven And Back, Sunday Forum

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Length: 50min 40sec (3040 seconds)

Published: Sun Oct 18 2015