Amna: In our interconnected, globalized economy, goods produced in one nation end up on shelves and in stores halfway around the world. And while consumers hope there's some way to protect the workers who make the products we buy, some American companies have recently come under scrutiny for alleged links to forced labor. William brangham speaks with the journalist behind a new investigation documenting the forced labor behind Chinese seafood that ends up on American plates. William: In recent years, Americans have been eating increasing amounts of seafood. It is considered one of the healthier sources of protein but a series of new investigations about the outlaw ocean project reveals that the way a lot of that seafood ends up in our stores and on our plates comes at an extraordinary human cost. Specifically, workers from north Korea who are forced to work in Chinese factories. Here's an excerpt about lolo of outlaw ocean's recent -- >> 2023 was a highly successful year for this seafood processing company based in China which opened a large plant edit compound in this Chinese city that sits along the north Korean border. The company doubled the amount of squid it exported to the United States. In celebration of its success, it threw a huge party at its annual meeting with dancers, fireworks, and a high-tech light show. The problem though is that a crucial reason for their success was its widespread use of cheap north Korean labor. I was part of a much bigger state run partnership between China and North Korea, where workers are selected by the north Korean government and exported across the border to work in Chinese seafood plants. This is a huge problem, because it violates very clear and strict U.N. Sanctions and U.S. Law prohibiting the use of north Korean workers in this very fashion. William: Jordi B Tao is the reporter you just asked joining me now -- jordi B Tao is the reporter you just heard -- joining me now is the reporter you just heard. This incredibly harrowing investigation looks at the series of these Chinese seafood plants in the city you just mentioned near the north Korean border where tens of thousands of north Korean workers. Explain to us how did those workers get from North Korea into China. >> This is a long-running program between China and north Korea. The two governments coordinate the selection of workers for the industries and then transfer them into the country usually under a two-year contract where they stay in China, most often at locked down plants where they are not allowed to leave. The north Koreans seek these jobs because they typically pay much better than what they can earn in North Korea. There's a rigorous selection process in North Korea for those who get to go. They are mostly women and the selection process by the north Korean government usually means they don't choose people that will defect. William: This is labor for Chinese factories. What is the upside for north Korea? >> North Korea, because of the sanctions, is desperate for capital, for money. So, this is a multibillion-dollar moneymaking business where they send their workers abroad and that foreign capital is a strong capital, Chinese capital that they can use to buy weapons or oil or consumer goods. William: Let's look at another excerpt about what the conditions are like in some of those factories. >> Workers often have to sign two or three year contracts after they arrive in China. Managers confiscate their passports. If workers attempt to escape or complain to people outside the plant, their families at home could face reprisals from the government. The work itself is relentless. Shifts at the seafood plants run 14 to 16 hours. Workers receive up to one day off per month and few, if any holidays or sick days. In seafood plants, the women sleep in bunk beds in locked dormitories, sometimes with 30 people to a room. Workers are permitted from tuning into local TV or radio, and from leaving factory grounds. They describe lowliness, violence, and a crushing sense of captivity. William: Your report documents even worse conditions. Violence, sexual abuse, particularly among the women you are talking about. Can you describe a little bit about how their lives are like? >> This is a brutal type of work. Long hours in tight quarters, relentless pace. They are captive on facilities that are run by men. This was one of the big revelations, the extent of sexual violence against the with it, quite especially when work stopped because of covid. There was no work and no income, and therefore, the women were pressured into prostitution. William: I think a lot of American consumers would be horrified to think that the conditions under which food they might be eating or buying of the store come out of conditions like this. How does that end up here? Which retailers are we talking about? >> Unfortunately, it is most retailers, most of the large ones. This investigation that looked at the use of north Korean labor found some of the seafood was ending up routing through plants that are supplying, which McDonald's supplies. Cisco also is getting seafood from these plants. Then, the major grocery store chains, giant, Walmart also. The globalized world we live in and the way that seafood in particular largely wraps through China means that many, if not most brands in the U.S. Are tainted by this. William: When you approach these companies and say here is what we are documented coming out of China and the conditions there, what do they say in response? >> Most stonewall us and don't answer questions. Some engagement say we are taking it seriously, we will get back to you. Still, others say we have taken this seriously. We have severed ties with this plant in particular. The overall underlying issue is the audits, the inspectors that they are supposed to be doing to check for these issues are not working. This auditing market which sends inspectors into plants, whether it is soccer balls, iPhones or seafood around the world, has big problems, big challenges. Often, they are not doing unannounced visits. They are doing announced visits so they tell the plant when they are coming. That is a flaw. The other big flaw is China is a distinct environment and there are certain things not allowed in China. If you want to stay in the country, whether you are a journalism organization or seafood company, there are certain no-go topics and he was rights -- human rights are not topics you could bring up on Monday and still expect to be in the country on Wednesday. William: The project is called the outlaw ocean project. Thank you for being here. >> Thanks for having me.
