Non-Verbal Communication in Leadership with Joe Navarro

you know joe thank you for joining me and and you know as excited to chat with you and as i've gone through your book and learned a little bit about you i love hearing the stories and books i think to me that's what makes books impactful and as we were just chatting here this is the line that to me because you said it many times and to me as a leader it's the quality that i think is most imperative so i'm going to say this in my opinion being exceptional so your book be exceptional being exceptional right is really about being empathetic i i think you nailed it i i think you you nailed it squarely on on the head if you ask people do you want to be average nobody wants to be average right no no hands go up unless the guy was asleep and suddenly he's woken up but if you ask who wants to be exceptional everybody raises their hand but then comes the next question well how do you do that how do you do that because if you're telling me that you're going to work harder or you're going to spend more time away from home or you're going to do what and you nailed it on the head is this this concept of of empathy of of being outward rather than inward of uh of leaving things better than they were um that is really hard for a lot of people i know you've had you know you've come across a lot of navy seals and and these are really special folks and you know when when you when you talk to them they're very humble most of the time you know they walk around you you wouldn't even know their navy seals unless as in my neighborhood you notice that their legs are not like your legs and um but you know the the philosophy of um leaving things uh of better of of making those key sacrifices uh for uh for a greater purpose um as the navy's seal say it's not for everybody and so when we you know i often say in america this is a great country if you're average you're going to get a paycheck but if you're exceptional you're going to have influence and very few people rise to that level and i think in part it's because they're not taught what to what those things are that will make you exceptional because if it's a car yeah you could have a dozen cars and maybe they'll disappear the next day we don't we don't really teach this how to how to go that one step further so let's tie that back into it i'd love to you know as i made the comment and you backed it up because it's it this to me is is the greatest opportunity in leadership today and especially generationally is understanding what true empathy is right and i think that's a challenge because it's it's it's hard to really i think in some ways understand define and as you did a great job of kind of sharing your story i want to ask this question is what do you feel as i just stated that is the barrier from people being empathetic if being exceptional is about being empathetic and that is the greatest key in leadership and as we what do you think holds people back what's that what's that part of them that holds them back from being empathetic that's a fantastic question and no one else has asked me that and i'm and i'm glad you have i think in part it's not a simple answer because in part sometimes it has to do with how rigid we are how closed off we are i i love it when when uh when i'm at at a foreign hotel and and i hear somebody from the united states and they've traveled for the first time and they say oh wow this is pretty neat or look this is really cool it's like what did you expect and and they're and their eyes are open nothing opens your eyes like travel nothing creates more empathy than than travel of being proximal so one of them is having that open mind that that receptiveness um two is and i see this with with great leaders you know what whether you whether you go back to world war ii and you you saw eisenhower mingling with the troops right before d-day or um or alexander the great i talk about in the book going out before before a battle and just what we would say today just hanging out with the boys today would be hanging out with the boys and and those fearsome women and getting a feel for you know are they up to the challenge and so forth and i think to be empathetic you have to be in the thick of it if you are a thousand miles away 500 feet away 20 feet away with a closed door you're not going to achieve it you have to be present you have to feel it smell it touch it and experience it and i've run into some people that think there need to be these divisions where well i'm not going to go down there what me stand in the loading dock and and see what that's like you know and yet as one example from this very senior guy in new york he was taking me about in his building and he says i found out more about shipping problems from the people in the loading dock than all my executives they can tell you who's ticketing who who who's uh taking their time who comes in late who's having problems all this stuff and you cannot possibly empathize i i think you could argue it's you you cannot empathize if you are not there i think you can have sympathy i think you can have understanding but until you know i i remember being at a crime scene it was about 118 degrees in yuma arizona and beautiful place yeah uh i used to go through a set of tires on my bureau car every month it was it was really it was so they would just well we bought cheap tires they would just explode but until you've been at a you know at a crime scene like that you don't understand the the this the life what these people went through you really don't understand how do you testify in court if you can't present that total picture of living in poverty alcohol abuse on and on and on and so i i i think you have to have that open mind i think you have to have a proximity but as you know one of the key things i talk about in the in the book be exceptional is you have to be able to observe the needs the wants the desires but more importantly the fears and concerns of others a truly empathetic person can sense and feel and understand this person is scared this person is worried this person is going through anxiety and what as a leader what as a leader can i do one of the things they they don't teach in business school and i've been to all of them and i've been to all but here and in europe and the one thing they they i see over and over and i asked i asked the instructors um where do you uh where's the section on the the amelioration of fear and they look at me like what that's that's one of the jobs of a leader to get rid of obstacles and get rid of anything that would cause fear because as you know fear can damage you fear can leave you trapped you people don't even go out of their house they live in fear and yet that is one of the responsibilities of a leader you know we often talk well they they have to have a mission and a goal and this and that really what about the fear that apprehension that we all have that were you know this could not work or maybe this will get in the way or that a leader's responsibility is to assess for for fear and to diminish that fear and yet look at how many people fail to do that today in fact there are people now that dedicate themselves to just artificially create fear because it can make them money it it it gathers people around them but it accomplishes nothing absolutely very short-lived it's a very short-lived right exactly you know it's kind of like you know that that that firecracker burns burns fast and hot but it doesn't sustain and so it's not gonna create this warming fire over time it's just going to be something quick and you know it brings with all those you know different types of metaphors and similes that you could go into um but the great leaders that i've known um they sense when you know our swat team uh you know we were outnumbered i remember one time we had to go into this is this is the only it's not in the book but it's the only time that uh uh our swat team had to go into us into a small city a town in in puerto rico and it's the only time that we have had to evacuate from there with with helicopters standing by ambulances standing by and walking backwards out that's how dangerous it was and i remember the uh our swat team commander at the time larry lycar and the whole way out he's checking on us are you okay are you okay maintain that calm that's the job of a of a leader to attenuate fear and and apprehension why because we function better no i love it you know this is one of the things that i picked up and and again be exceptional in your own book you've read a ton of books and a lot of great information but yet to me to see the desire that you've had to take this interest in human you know i don't say human function but human function in the sense of nonverbal communication right that's that's a functionality and and to me the the the cool piece that i saw is when you immigrated to the the united states and you're a little boy right and you didn't know any language and you got thrust in this situation to me that's when you started to learn that you had to look at all these nonverbal cues in order to understand your surroundings to me that's where the seed was placed i in my opinion do you feel like that was the case i i i think you're exactly right i think well it interestingly enough you know we came here as as refugees thinking that we would only be here a few months we came from cuba okay and we i only spoke spanish and so we thought okay there's a revolution in cuba it'll be over soon and we'll we'll we'll go back but as a child you have to rely on something and the only thing that i found comfort in and i think you nailed it is wow the body language it's the same you know when tyler smiles at me i know what that means i know when tyler looks away i know what that means and so it was something that as a child you know my parents were both working two jobs as waiters in miami beach they weren't around and so i had to latch on to something that um that gave meaning and um and so i became very sensitive to that and i i think my mother would tell you you know my uh all the way down to to when i was eight and nine years old i always paid attention to the body language more than what people were saying because inherently i found it more honest and i and i think you've seen it in relationships when you when you walk into a group and uh you see the person that eagerly seeks you out and says hello the the person that just uh is is you know overwhelmingly um happy to to to see you versus the person that just you know kind of looks over and does one of these things and i think universally we we we put more reliance now on words when really um it's about the non-verbals i think the best relationships is based on on non-verbals when you see leaders when i see colin powell take a stage and and and he has his command presence and he hasn't spoken yet and you realize this is all about non-verbals that you can have people really influenced uh just by your demeanor by your kindness by again your empathy these these are powerful tools powerful you know it's it's funny as you say that about cullen and you know i've never met him and you know i of course admire the guy but as you're talking about that i think about all right how does he he stands very very composed not overpowering he's you know he will accept what's there i'm just thinking of the times that i've seen him in his body language without ever saying a word and you're right that it it gives this presence of hey if there's someone i want to lead me it's him he's composed in in his you know demeanor shows that i'm not going to try to overpower you i'm here to be a rock almost and we're going to get through this together that's what i feel based upon how he presents himself exactly you know when i when i look at colin powell and i and i've presented at events where he is uh been at or i look at somebody like mary erdos of of of jp morgan and you realize what these individuals these leaders uh have in common is their gestures are very smooth they have smooth but broad gestures and they can afford to do that because they have confidence in themselves they don't have to be jittery you know one of the things that that i often used for teaching is i have two photographs of two individuals and they're both in uh military uh fatigue uniforms and the only difference with i i don't show the face the only thing is different is one has the little badge of the the insignia of a corporal and the other one has the insignia of a general and i said how many how many of you would be able to notice them if it was just based on their behavior and their behavior is totally different it's totally different those little insignia are insignificant when a general walks into a room you sense it when a corporal walks into a room you sense it why because they're non-bi their nonverbal communication is different well at the same point in this discussion i think if there's a case and talk about if there's a general that walks in the room that you're like i'm with that guy as opposed to a general that walks into the room it's like i'm not sure about that guy it's based upon how they walk in it's right it's how they present themselves and and that's in any border it's not necessarily the military it's anywhere it's like how that leader walks in as you described earlier are they walking in looking at people or are they so they're brow furrowed and they're just direct to the points like i'm not sure i want to follow that guy because is he worried about himself or me yeah i i think you you have a point you know most of my business is in the financial sector and their their concerns and their genuine concerns are customers keeping customers taking care of customers their clients um making sure that their everything from their curbside appeal to their personal appeal is the best that it can be and and and and you're right the leader that who that comes in and engages each and every person maybe they can't talk to everybody because there's too many but boy they sure make that eye contact and they acknowledge each other and uh and they turn yield and and do all these things that when you walk away from that meeting you say i want to attend the next meeting and yet i've been led by people who it it's like i i hope i never have to come to this meeting another meeting like that with this clown again because you know it their mind is uh is on themselves they could care less about what you're going through and um but we go back to that first thing you said it's it's about empathy and really in many ways that's that's what the book is about is you can only create psychological comfort through empathy empathy is you have to be able to observe what is going on in the room and i think that's why i dedicated so many years to studying nonverbals and most of my books are on that subject is if you can't tell your son or your daughter is having issues when when they walk through that door or you can't tell that something's going on in this meeting that you know i sense something isn't right then you're not properly observing because it's often just there for you to uh to pick up on well you know that chapter in the book to me was very i think it it's powerful in the sense that and as we're discussing this this empathy which i think is so hard to define in our world we're not sure but this idea that i can learn those skills you know you shared multiple times in in the book about how as a as a young agent as a you know fresh in the borough bureau that you had to learn how to you know understand who was a threat who wasn't what how did they carry themselves over and so on right and that was a skill you developed no different than you know how you handle a weapon everything else and i think to me that's what's really i think important to know as a leader is once you have a person like you had agent moody or or those of us have our spouses whoever it may be that says hey um you don't realize the impact you're having on people because of how you're showing your body language you know and for those of you when you read the book it's you know you can talk about you know agent moody joe yeah but i i think that's important that we understand hey you can learn and develop this stuff it isn't a god-given talent you either have or don't you can learn and develop it yeah thank you for pointing that out um the assumption that somehow this is sprinkled on you and and you're born that way is such a fallacy i i do think that that you know some children from a young age begin to realize that they have a role and i think they realize it i i i've seen it with with uh with children i i saw it today um at the ymca where a a young a young boy took it upon himself to uh help the other children who didn't have goggles and i i i was astonished i said he's doing something no other adult even thought of uh scrounging around to help his uh his mates he's probably 11 years old he's already showing leadership um but the the traits that for instance um you need for the job of law enforcement um where the public all of us you know the first crime scene i went to was a bank robber in phoenix in arizona and you know you get there i was 24 years old i walk in the door and there were four tellers i believe and two managers and they're looking at you like well you're our salvation and i was like god help us all i'm just i'm only 24. and uh you know but but you realize they're expecting you to remain cool calm and collected to take charge to seize the crime scene to make sure that everybody's separated to um to calm them down and and explain to them physiologically what they're going through and and and all that stuff and and you and as almost every athlete an elite athlete learns is you become a role model by looking at those traits that best serve you and others to be that role model that you have to carry yourself in a certain way a lot of the coaching that i do which is one-on-one with executives involves this that all of a sudden they've accomplished a lot very quickly but they don't know they they haven't had those you know in the old days you went to general electric as a 20 year old and 15 years later now you became an executive and you were mentored now we have to create our own mentorship program so that we can begin to use those behaviors and it's all about behaviors behaviors that you can learn so that you can be more patient so that you can engage people so that you can communicate with them and and again is when we go from being average to exceptional is what does that take that that need to communicate more effectively to be able to observe more effectively and then to be able to act more effectively those things they're just not showered on us we have to go out and learn how to do it so that we can then measure what is our effect on others because in the end and you know this tyler as carl sagan said all we are is the sum total of our influence on others that's all that's the only thing that matters and until we begin to shape that and mold that um we're not at that exceptional level but as we get closer to that you begin to see the influence that we have and influence isn't about walking around with your chest held high and your chin high it's about the gratitude that people have for being in their lives and whoa how many people can achieve that yeah well i mean it's it's what jim collins writes about and good to great it's that you know that level five leader and and that person that does have that tremendous trust and influence and thereby legacy impact and i think the great lesson that you know i've had to learn i've had to learn empathy and for me i think it come back and i think back about your experiences as you share that there is there's everyone has a catalyst point to where oh this is how is in my mind this is going to be the shortest route to get it done but oftentimes we find going back to that firecracker it's like that's only short term and we don't learn that hey you know what that may get it done today but is it going to get it done tomorrow and the day after and the day after that and to me that's that great executive learning cycle to say hey you got here great but guess what what got you here won't get you there and let me start to clue you in if you're going to lead people and you need to build rapport with them you got to connect with them you got to show that you care about them if you ever want to achieve anything because if you don't treat them as people man you're not going to be a leader long yeah you're exactly right you know in the book i i wrote write about this wonderful man and his wife george logo thetas in in new york and you know over the years he he has struggled with uh you know issues and and travel is difficult for him but every year he makes it out to every office around the world and i go george why do you do that just just jump on a zoom call and he he just shakes his head and and his wife needs ya [Music] she says joe you've known my husband 20-plus years haven't you learned anything he wants to be in the same room he wants to look at him he wants to hear the stories he wants to share the coffee he's not there to look at the books he can look at the books on his computer he's there to influence them by his his his his presence and he builds that into the equation how many people build that into the equation for most people it's an accident oh i was here so i stopped by to say hello but that's that's really what makes for an exceptional individual when i look at the jane goodall and and how she changed our perception of everything just by how she looked on our nearest cousins apes and said look at them as something to be valued not to be shot not to be captured that how we look at things how we engage with them and then turning to a public which was reticent to accept her philosophy and begin through her own nonverbals how she engages she has persuaded millions around the world to be more empathetic to to to the animals around us she did that one little level at a time she didn't set out to make this quantum change but those incremental behaviors how she looked at the animals how she talked about them her refusal for instance to number the animals as scientists had done but to actually give them names began to change our perceptions and how she tells the story all of her stories are stories of empathy find one book that she has written where it isn't a story of of empathy and you can't find it they're all about no i mean empathetic understanding yeah well i mean i think they you know the great opportunity and especially as we've gone through the the pandemic exposure and and how that's changed human interaction and people are yearning to get back into interaction but you know as companies and businesses understand hey how are we going to operate i think there's great opportunities is you know i've learned a lesson as others are learning a lesson is man the the soft skills the people skills that being able to read non-verbal cues those are the things that are going to set great leaders and businesses apart over the next generation because we've either missed that opportunity or we have people that have have done more online we've done more away from computer we're not touching people we're thinking hey you know how can we automate that and i believe this and i hear this from you is there's a a tremendous level of connection that you surely can't automate you sure that you nailed it again you surely cannot automate it nor can you delegate it um no you know covet taught us many things number one it taught us all of a sudden i'm hearing from executives i mean from beijing to south africa to everywhere they're writing to me and saying i can't read people all i can see is their face and their some of the faces of people in the office are covered oh all of a sudden body language is now important okay um the second thing we learned is how resilient we are as humans and how quickly we can adapt i used to maybe make one skype two skype calls a month and now i you know we went to 80 percent zoom calls uh overnight but we also learned the the efficacy of it and that is that there's a lot to be uh shared by being able to see each other to to engage each other that warm smile that greets us that those arching eyebrows that get excited as we get excited about a topic and and so forth that communicates a lot you know going forward uh you're you're right also this is an opportunity for leaders and the opportunity is in this how are you going to handle it when part of the workforce is somewhat hesitant about going back into the workplace that you as a leader as i said one of the things that a leader does is attenuates fear that you have to create a empathetic environment where those that are still concerned about their health are respected and those that think you know everything is back to normal they also have to be respected but you also have to give guidance you also have to realize that people are going to be standing further away from each other i my company's already observed this we've done multiple studies now where when people have gone back to work they don't realize it but they're standing about eight to uh 11 inches further than they were before and and this is just a a natural phenomena that humans are not um faucets that he we will be coming back into the workplace and we have to give leaders have to give workers their their compatriots they have to give them the opportunity to vent because they're angry they're upset there's a lot of depression as in my own life we we've lost people in my own neighborhood i know of of three losses and this is significant and people will need to get this out of their system as we get back to that more focused work so leaders are going to have to provide that amplitude to be human and to adjust to the the the circumstances that that are still with us but what a great opportunity for leaders to really demonstrate um how much they care i yeah i i have to go back probably um maybe 70 80 years to a time where um where leaders had this opportunity to really demonstrate um this level of of of caring and and i and so i think it's it's it's a great opportunity yeah i mean it's something that i i see as leadership it's a great learning lesson and it's it's going to be a divider and to me and i want to share this with you and i want to get your take on it you know as we've talked about this empathy we've talked about being exceptional we've talked about maybe you know what are those barriers this is my belief and this has been my experience the thing that held me back from being more empathetic was my insecurities about where did i fit how did i fit what value did i bring in so to me i i believe that's the greatest barrier and i'd love for you to you know think about it if you think about it now you get back to me later but you know think about it to me that's the biggest thing if we can come to grips with our insecurity we all have it i have it you have it everyone listening has an insecurity and yeah go ahead no i was i i think that's a profound statement um and it bears uh examination because we we all have insecurities i i remember as as a young agent i had insecurities and uh and what we have to surmount to to be empathetic when we feel frail because when we are insecure we're we're frail we're we're not as we now say together and uh and so it's i think it's difficult to to uh to to be empathetic and yet at the same time how many times have i learned that i can strengthen myself by going beyond myself and taking care of others by displaying vulnerability right by it's when you're vulnerable enough to embrace that insecurity say hey you know it is what it is i'm gonna and and to me i'd love if you know maybe another conversation over you know you know something in florida where we sit down and enjoy and say hey you know what body cues hey i'm fighting over insecurity and that i recognize that i'm like oh now i feel secure in this conversation this relationship this interaction with us like i understand you have some hesitation and maybe i have a station but now all of a sudden we've opened each other up that vulnerability means now all of a sudden we are compatriots we're going to go forward in this because to me there's probably a lot in that and it's that that on you know taking off that armor allowing for that insecurity to say hey i admit it yeah it's there i've accepted it now that vulnerability is going to allow us to you know go even you're you're exactly right i was i was in manchester uh england right before covid like two weeks before they shut everything down and i've i've given thousands of talks and um i'm just getting ready to to get on stage and the gentleman hands me a little cup of water and i notice my hand is shaking and um and i and and then they call me and and and i'm walking out on this stage there's four or 500 people there and i just i just said it i i said folks i i don't know why but i'm nervous and i shouldn't be i i should be you know and people say oh you never you never tell the public you're nervous oh sorry mate but i'm nervous and i don't know why and um after the event was over you know you're only on for 15 minutes and we had a book signing and i had people come up to me and say you know i'm asked to give speeches and i always get nervous and i you made me uh happy to know that somebody experienced like you gets nervous and i said i i get nervous all the time and and there was something about opening up that that uh showing the humanity of it that um i i think was uh was very rewarding and at the same time i think it builds us up too and and saying i'm human i have sentiments um and i you know the the old um and i understand it in law enforcement you have to have this veneer because um things can happen and they can turn bad really fast but i've never hesitated to show my emotions i have cried at crime scenes i have um you know even in court um and i just front it and it is it is what it is um i've i've done heroic things um but you know do they measure as much as that openness i don't think so i think just being open and letting younger agents see that hey it's okay to cry um i i think that has greater merit than anything else that uh that i've done well i think you know it is emotions are part of our our nonverbals right how we display that we can't hide that and and to me as we come back to this you know this whole display of empathy and to me it's a it's a spectrum i've talked about this on my podcast before it's you know at one end you're hard and callous the other end you're a doormat and to me it's somewhere in the middle that's healthy and to me explain you know those emotions are what allow people to to to come together and it is that being because empathetic to me can't be one way it is you know if i'm trying to you know connect with you and i'm joe you know ask me about you and tell me about you and i'm learning and i'm carrying we're going through those things if i hadn't learned about you know you it's kind of like and you're the whole time stiff well this conversation wouldn't be valuable right it's not one way but it's all of a sudden if i start to open up and i start to smile do all those non-verbals that you've identified as you saw with when you were interrogating people or going through it's like the more that you cared about them the more they just opened up and they wanted to go with you right oh it it it it's absolutely uh true i i was interviewing well i i i write about it in in the book what you know let me just say this because i think you hit on an important point being empathetic doesn't mean you're somebody's chew toy it doesn't mean people walk all over you not at all you can be empathetic and and be hard as nails and what i mean by hard as nails is that you're not going to violate the law you're not going to violate morals and you're certainly not going to violate ethics because the violation of ethics is the antipathy of uh of being empathetic you you a you know especially in my role where you know i'm sitting there in the book i talk about this criminal really a despicable man because he was a a pedophile and you know my job is to get information not to act tough not to you know make him feel feel bad that the judge will do that my job is to get information because there's a lot more uh victims and my my my empathy for him is not because of his crimes my empathy for him is in that he is a human being and i'm going to treat him with respect and that's and that's it and and and that's it and um when you can do that and and i've done this with some of the worst people and i've had them come back and say you know i i talk to you because you're the first person to treat me with respect you're the first person in law enforcement that hasn't called me a maggot a or this or that and i'm and it's like and you're telling me that that's the key just just being empath just being a nice person just being respectful is all it takes and in a way that's exactly what what it takes that um i'm not gonna bend the rules i'm certainly not gonna cheat the justice system but i but i will i will i will grant whatever i am entitled to grant under the auspices of being empathetic that if a person needs water if he needs medical treatment if he needs um to get something off their chests that i i'm gonna provide that and i think there's a misunderstanding about what empathy is that somehow you have to put your life on hold and um and uh and acquiesce to uh to others and and that is not empathy at all yeah well i i agree and and again i you know so much great value that i've learned out of your book and can't wait to you know digest even more and so joe thank you so much for joining me today um i've gotten tremendous value out of it and and i truly hope to be able to call you a friend and say hey would love to have more of these discussions because again you've you've dug a hole here to where i'm very interested in my own experiences but i believe from a leadership perspective it's our great opportunity absolutely of course we're friends uh i i make friends for life i don't make friends for uh for 15 minutes just just think about the things that you do every day where you give opportunities the way that you ask questions the enthusiasm with which you do it how you turn yield in our conversations many of these things are nonverbals but they register they register with your guests they register with with your audiences and that's what sets us apart that's that's when we stay begin to see ah those are the exceptional traits they don't cost exceptional traits don't cost money but they cost effort and that's the big difference so i congratulate you well thank you joe that's a great little note to end on i love that and hope everyone if you didn't catch that rewind it back 15 30 seconds and and make sure you write that one down joe thank you for your time thank you for your contribution and just being you and and really diving into this stuff that that really intrigues you because we're all better off for it thank you very much

Channel: Tyler Dickerhoof

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Id: f47bUU4I5YA

Length: 45min 28sec (2728 seconds)

Published: Tue Dec 21 2021