NSE #33 | Noam Chomsky with Paul Mattick

hello and welcome to the broken rails new social environment I'm Sophia and I have the pleasure and privilege of being your emcee today a few quick notes before we get to started on today's very exciting talk we'll be recording this meeting for the rail archive if you would prefer not to be seen you can disable your camera by pressing the stop video button in the bottom left corner of your screen will keep the audience on you into a question time which I will kick off about halfway through the talk the rail team will be helping out with tech if you have questions and our production assistants Malvika and miko will be typing closed captions to make our talk accessible you will close with a poem as is traditional at the rail and now it's no further ado I introduce Tom attic our politics editor in the field notes sections of the rail hi Thank You Sofia and could you still get rid of that little waiting room sign it's looking like you Thanks I'm very excited today to welcome an old friend teacher and inspiration don't chance key to these discussions I can't think of a more interesting and important person to discuss the ongoing events with and rather than waste a lot of time telling you all who he is because you all know he's probably the world's most important and well-known linguist and probably at the moment the world's most important and well known left-wing political commentator so that said I welcome you new and I'm going to start by asking you a question you when I first contacted you you said I've never been so busy this isn't an amazing moment but there is a constant stream of things to talk about and people who want to talk what are the special challenges of the current situation why is this moment so particularly important well this moment is particularly important for reasons that are not being discussed of course naturally properly everyone is consumed by the immediate crisis the corona vote because it nothing everyone shut down the people are losing the jobs were dying the economy is collapsing people who are paying attention or sequestered of course they're paying attention today but we're going to recover from this crisis somehow after lots of pain cost deaths be a miserable time but we will recover we're not going to recover from other things that are happening right now like the melting of the polar ice caps or the opening the opening of the ending of the regime that has somewhat protected us from terminal nuclear war it's being dismantled before our eyes by the White House that's these are things we're not going to recover from in fact we'll be lucky if we survive as the year and those who are simply there there is there are we're all told that we should just pay attention to the immediate crisis not think about the future there are those who are thinking about the future for example the fossil fuel companies and their agents and the White House they're thinking about the future they are planning to create a world which is harsher and more brutal than the one that we are now that has brought us the current crisis so they don't relent they keep at it all the time and if we let them forge the future world will be in even deeper trouble so take the president's budget for the next year which symbolised very well what the ruling classes have in mind take a look at the President's budget mid-february pandemic is raging and what does it call for cutback in funding for the Center for Disease Control throughout Trump's term he's been cutting it every year also destroying programs that could have protected for the u.s. from the crisis leaving us uniquely vulnerable so the first point in the budget is let's make it worse let's defund the things that might protect the population from a health crisis and a future pandemic we deserve likely however the budget did is call for increased expenses in some areas one increased subsidies to fossil fuel corporations okay so on the one hand let's continue to reduce any protections for the population on the other hand let's continue to accelerate the race to the abyss which global warming but that'll be profitable for the fuel companies and it will help my electoral chances more funding for the bloated military which already spends practically the entire world now of course more funding for his famous wool why because yeah that raisin votes among deluded people who think that the miserable refugees fleeing from our atrocities in Central America are a danger to them so that's the mentality of the those who are trying to shape the world in the interests of profit power and corporate power and so on they don't relent they keep going okay now if you ask what we should be we should be asking the urgent question we should be asking the immediate one is why did this pandemic come in the first place we be asking them scientists are well aware that if we don't deal with those causes another one is going to come which will be even worse because it will be intensified by the global warming that's proceeding we're talking so what are the roots of this crisis they're not very subtle but to deal with it won't be simple but they're pretty obvious on the surface it begins with a crisis of a crisis of the and of the inherent logic of capitalism ok it was none right after the Czar's crisis it's 2003 which fortunately was contained a scientists were personally well aware were openly saying there's another one coming probably another coronavirus unless we plan for it well who can plan for it the obvious answer is the drug corporations overwhelmed the funds like given huge gifts and the World Trade Organization ludicrously called free trade agreements fighting protectionist investor rights agreements she gave them just pour money into the pockets overflowing with money they have all the resources so why don't they do it because there's something called capitalism you're supposed to make profits if you're a corporation the one job is to increase profit and market share and of course I salaries to the CEO or merit in fact akin to break back to suffering through for 40 years since we almost the corporation is green maximize profit for the shareholders wealthy anything else you do shakes the foundations of civilization so they can't do it well you make more money on things with himself tomorrow than I'm planning for a severe crisis of my common of Secutor so they're out well is another possible agent we could become involved the government the most basic research the main research in almost all areas including the technology you know using Thomson public funding national institutes of research universities and so on so the government could do it but there's an impediment it's called neoliberalism particularly savage forms Calvinism wrong with Athens inaugural speech which is something smile that's that government is the problem solution to translate that into English it means we should take decisions away from the government which has a floor that's partially accountable to either now we should place decisions in the hands of private tyrannies which are totally unaccountable that's wrong Reagan read the script handed to him by his master so the government that's the second blow then comes it's then come to third I should say every country was suffering from the first two but then comes then comes the third how different countries react to it they did you act differently mentioned help from react mainly through this four years when information was funny all the time to cut funding for the Center for Disease Control to cancel programs including programs of scientists in China they were preparing for this total that okay then comes with crisis misplaced through it because there's a tremendous amount of wine actually not contradiction on December 31st that China informed the world that they were beginning to see pneumonia liked symptoms when unusual kind with an unknown he do it about a week later very property the Chinese scientists have identified sorts that identified the virus by January tense they had sequenced provided information about the genome to the entire world then comes the question of countries react some reacted very quickly and effectively the countries in me East agent for free instead of Taiwan after the New Zealand spending all reacted quite quickly when they have the disease pretty much under control Europe at first day much attention to me finally started in there anyways Britain at first following of course there was suicidal but they quickly reversed origin now I'm moving in the same direction then comes the bottom of the barrel the United States Donald Trump and his administration they did nothing well it's not that they didn't know they were getting constant consistent briefings in fact we know I've learned alien points from the intelligence agencies saying there's a serious crisis situations but Trump was busy looking at his TV it's just as it was just a call tens of thousands died right now the United States is the epicenter of the crisis mr. Roy but finally in March something got through through the trunk my suspicion is proved that it was the decline sharp decline and stop something yes I think that's correct that's what you do anyway he noticed but then we hear a different thing no I was the first person in the world who discovered to recognize that there was a pandemic it's my super genius turn on Fox News that evening Sean Hannity or Twiggy it's the most brilliant decision history remembers and then we go onto the next week's we're just trying to find scapegoats let's try to find some way over the road from the crimes you committed my first it's China China is responsible no look at the newspapers it's morning Trump is fuming it says he's trying to figure out ways much China particularly their sovereign immunity so everybody country consider them sue them for millions of dollars for things he didn't next was the world it's China centric we should be provided with ten times the funds of China but China so powerful as they control them so it's the world vote for the position I won't even bother looking at the argument but the effect is not physical Trump defunded the World Health Organization what and he is known as we know know this administration was moving to destroy it what does that mean that means that unknown numbers of poor suffering people in Africa are going to die they're reliant on World Health Organization expertise of doctors and treatments not for the corona voyage that's still coming but for many other diseases so let's kill lots of black Africans but it might improve my likeable standing okay that's the next and it goes on from there we didn't continue a couple of days ago from fired the head the scientist was in the head of heads vaccine development in the United States he had a reason the scientists dared to make some critical comments about the quack medicine since trying to I mean that's what we're living it so three telling to you know I went with three major problems the logic of capitalism the particularly savage form of capitalism called neoliberalism the criminals and the white house is an unusual sort and given these three closeted factors to pretty close of that or three different sort of levels of agency the system as a whole it's particularly virulent contemporary form and the particularly horrible bunch of people that are running it in the United States what do you see as the openings for people to react and to deal with the situation with which the Earth's population is now being faced by this development what should we do in a minute thing is to get rid of the malignancy in the white house that's poisoning us and will continue to in works ways the second thing is to join those two masters who are working to create the future of society in their interest join them and work against them work to photos these courses they can be done domestically can be done internationally so just to give at home that means continuing the activism that has been going on that was kind of coalesced in the Sanders campaign kinds of activism little bit underway and very successful Sanders campaigns in contrary with people say has been surprising success it's it's first of all initiated programs that are enormously significant so we're going to have to have some form of green new deal if we want to survive a couple of years ago this was all from the whale from the distance if mentioned it was rid of you and now it's in the center of the legislative agenda what happened when young active a group of young activists sunrise movement crest forward with their campaign for occupy janitorial offices congressional offices well they got some support from the young congressional representatives who were swept into office on the Sanders way especially Alexandria testing of Cortez a senator senator from Massachusetts said mark you've been interested in climate issues joined and now it's on the agenda that's a big change that kind of act ISM has to continue and it has had an effect Oh Joe Biden is not my favorite first to put it mildly but if you look at his program it's well to the left of any program as a proceeding the Democratic candidate not because it was the choice of the DNC but because they're forced to it by the shift of the popular base to an activist left that has to continue there is a traditional left position on elections which seems to have faded into the woodwork but we should realize that the traditional position is they don't matter that much and what matters is your ongoing activist work which would be just as relentless as the work of the masters if it isn't we're in trouble to be more diligent every once in a while an event occurs called an election which you should spend many maybe 15 minutes on when you take a look at the electoral choices handed to you would say past good is there a significant difference if there is I'll take off a couple of minutes and push a lever and then voting booth go back to my work if there isn't I'll ignore I didn't vote for a party to do something else and that's what it should be doing I had an effect we know it can have an effect public action and initiatives and activism has had effect some Richard Nixon on Ronald Reagan any half-human president it won't have an effect on Donald Trump he's going to be rocks he and the people around and will be rock solid and offices I'm referring to people after unit who care for the country to some extent not just for themselves so that's the kind of thing we should be doing thinking about the looming crisis that are not far there are much more serious than the and even this pandemic again the grim effects of ongoing global warming the terrible threat of nuclear war which is being raised by the destruction of the launch control regime by provocative military operations on the Russian border by these in the Middle East we should talk about this - crumbs cribes has been to dismantle the Iran agreement that's very serious the whole world is against it and he had to do it because it was Obama's agreement and therefore he has to do the opposite it's one of those two principles of the Trump administration extremely dangerous it's raising in the prospects of it first of all it's extremely harmful to the people which would say that tightening the sanctions against Iran which are illegitimate in the first place tighten them in the midst of the pandemic is just savagery beyond words but it's also raising seriously the threat of war there are simple ways around to discuss them not being discussed those are the kinds of things like I wanted to say just to follow up on this that this is in many ways an unprecedented situation will excitement catastrophe on the way and then the shutdown of the world economy in response to a pandemic this is something that's never happened before but as you said the more serious danger that lies behind it there's also a nest Oracle novelty but one of the important things that I see you as bringing to this moment is an enormous historical knowledge and in a long personal knowledge of activism and political activity what would you say that young people need to keep it moving as resources to draw on in meeting these challenges in confronting trouble and confronting neoliberalism and in confronting the dangers of climate change where should people look you know what are the tools that are available insofar as you can draw on your experience and knowledge of the past to suggest what pants that people need to take in the future just take these things we've just been talking about the activity is a small group of young people in the sunrise moves me to place on the agenda something that's essential for survival it's not a small move take the climate strike last October tourism isn't my key for educational purposes one thing that should be shown in every classroom in the country and every public meeting I think is one of the most dramatic events that I can recall in my lifetime it was a meeting of the diverse conference in January every January rich and powerful people call themselves the masters of the universe get together see the corporation if you go skiing and Davos Switzerland and talk to each other about my wonderful they are and so on it's that kind of important meeting this last January the meeting opened with two talks two keynote addresses the first one of course was a Donald Trump well it's worth listening to ranting and raving about how brilliant he is and how wonderfully visit my office everyone else was and so I almost kind of embarrassing the people of Davis don't really like him he spoils there is vulgarity spoils their image dedicated humanists who want to help the world but they they don't like him they gave him rousing applause because he understands something that they know is crucial whose pockets to fill with dollars he understands that so he can be a voltage thug but as long as he devotes himself full time to enriching the very rich and corporate power no accepted so rousing applause for Donald Trump then came the second talk seventeen-year-old girl Greta Sundberg gave a quiet series factual talked accurate ending by talking to the people there and saying you are betraying us polite applause I don't run the head nice little girl go back to school we've got it in hand don't worry that should be shown everywhere very striking and it's the kind of answer to the question you raised read-a-thon bird representing the people of the world especially the young people on this malignancy being cheered by people like him who want to increase their wealth and power and control and that's the world there's an old phrase for cold clasp on that no one used that phrase called something else but that's where we stand and which one is gonna prevail but one of them has old the wealth and the power the other has all the people if they do something not if they don't mean that that's what significant I should say this is also happening quietly though it should be upfront on the international scale you take the Trump administration was the chaotic it's hard to detect some kind of thinking behind it other than me but there is some geo strategic planning it's the basic idea is to construct a reactionary international an international of the most reactionary States led by the White House of course Italy include Brazil under Wilson our own it's a small clone of Trump include the family dictatorship Cindy in the Gulf region Saudi Arabia a dictatorship and looking Egypt under the worst harshest dictatorship it's and its history but also some dictatorships they're like a great friend of include Israel moving so far to the right that you need to tell us but to see it at this point making by now making public the classic links inside for many meetings with you both dictatorship going a little to the east and including India under Modi who's trying to dismantle much less than ending in secular democracy again introduce a Hindu a solicited between nice people like or bond and Hungary turning what was a democracy into dictatorship Mario Sylvania in Italy's gets escapes out of helping refugees from Africa drown in the Mediterranean another ring names of such states once the reactionary information that's being formed before the rise as I said they're relentless they don't stop the meanwhile is another one being formed of getting for Blizzard but it's important that reverse of gender - I mean it's opening meeting the couple weeks I think it was initiated by Bernie Sanders and Jana so our fathers we've founded a group called the m25 which is a europe-wide fine to salvage what's worth saving in the European Union and get rid of the robbed so these stupid to get him whether they want to bring in the local self in fact most of the world so we have two internationals for me and one of them our will states that the other people Watson international analogue domestic concert at home so these things are continuing and plenty of opportunities we're not living in totalitarian states they have a lot of freedom it's refreshing compared to what other people say invisible so we can do lots of things just do them and that means even doing things like brushing believers so why isn't Trump why isn't like Sanders the Democratic nominee then what happened during the primaries one thing that happened we should pay attention to is Sanders was hoping for a surge of young people who are you as I said it's a minor interruption of activist activities what is an important you don't you've said those 15 minutes you're getting you're changing what happens if a listen to you so one I'm one thing that you haven't mentioned is with something which has struck me and that present is the upsurge of speaking of people the absurd effect activism among rank-and-file workers all over the United States as well as other countries morning tomorrow there's a major general strike tomorrow with lots of groups will steadily I mean the labor movement was one of the first priorities of the neoliberal capitalism bistec destroyed the labor movement because that's theme has always been the main force that brings people together the women's in the forefront of social progressive social change so he had to get rid of them and they understood Reagan in the United States Thatcher in England the first move would undermine the Lakers Reagan went as far as to moving scabs unheard of South African the United States of young tolerated so bring in Scots five corporations quickly once they said the door was open encounter 14 others joined in which strikes with slabs and intimidation then Clinton comes along with his own techniques in Australia later than thought labour was seriously beaten back but it's coming back I'm talking very interesting ways started with non-union activities in the red states dreamer feature strikes features like these are not for labor states now it spread to the majors industrial unions and others and my old friends the IWW it's Friday tomorrow there's supposed to be a day laborer some of them in very significant so Amazon workers wasn't carrying out labor actions for some time there's been just B's US dollars which I names for me life significant legislative actions against a little warming and to face determines Amazon into a carbon-free they made over some period is a changes that came from with militancy of Amazon workers by their continuing like they're central to tomorrow's happen so yes that's restoring and reviving revitalizing Abram essential importance momentum get back to my own childhood in the 1930s in 1920s labor had been crushed by Woodrow Wilson amused that bridge but it revived and that's what led to the New Deal my early memories I've seen workers on strike that that's a textile but even done by the mid thirties to sit down to us just don't strike so very frightening to the owner because a sit-down strike is just one step before saying we don't need the bosses we can take it over and run it ourselves it's a fragile system of domination and control when it could collapse well when you get to the point of sit-down strikes then you start getting measures or the measures were significant very significant change life enormously made major effects that lasted until really until the late seventies and Ronald Reagan very sure that's what should be done but nevertheless I think this might be a good time to ask for a few questions there's so many people are watching and listening in that obviously very few people are going to be able to speak but this might be a moment to ask our guests to propose questions which address wonderful thank you both so much I will be moderating technically the Q&A portion and I'm first going to call upon Jeremy Ziller to ask a question Jeremy you can unmute yourself Thank You Sofia and Thank You Noam and Paul I had a question so from my perspective the rising complexity of technology and the systems that are coming about and the lack of visibility into the decisions that the technology in these systems are now making it on our behalf from my perspective is one of the biggest rising problems that's not being talked about and one of my assumptions in doing and I do a lot of this work myself my assumptions is that the the language and greater transparency has a significant role to play in making digital services more inclusive and more equitable and more accessible so do you have any advice for individuals on how they can bring about change to write to counter rising complexity well the complexity is real but it is not out of the range of the general public to sufficiently understand not the details but to get the basic idea so there are two things to do one is to impose to gather that you're part of the technology culture so inside of compel the industries to become transparent like the Amazon workers forced changes in the Amazon system again nowhere near enough significant ones about people working for Google Microsoft Apple and others won't be doing the same kinds of things from the inside for the gym for the everyone else forced them by public pressure public activism banging on the doors the traditional image peasants with pitchforks forced them to respond when they do the hafta respond to public pressure and so for example there was a leaked memo from a JP Morgan Chase recently biggest bank in the United States very interesting memo said of course we're following it's going to and place it risk the survival of humanity and the bank has to think about changing its policies as funding fossil fuels because we are under reputational risk what is me those are the peasants with the pitchforks and we have to maintain some sort of image to them if we want to keep control otherwise they're going to get rid of us why should we have facts like this why not of public banks in which the public runs you know so we have to be concerned about reputational risks so from the outside there's plenty of pressures when the inside does work to be done maybe these huge monopolies should just be broken up maybe they should even be placed under public control maybe they should have workers on their board all sorts of things that can be done but you're right these are serious problems technology's complex you don't expect everyone in the world to understand the intricacies let's say it's like even the technologists don't understand until opaque but you can understand enough so as to carry out meaningful activities to deal with the problem and you're right it's a serious problem I'm the degree of control over us that a couple of corporations had faced for astonishing there's one of the things that's been undergoing on now it's just I don't want to take too much time so I'll just mention it as what's called surveillance capitalism massive surveillance of every person everything - do you have a cell phone there's information pouring out every minute whether you want to do it or not to the central corporations which have come from Assam if you drive a car the electronics in the car is sending out information to the car manufacturers of course it's all getting time to Big Brother on top as well this is when you get to the internet of things so cold you know your refrigerator has electronics on everything around you collecting information and that information is for domination control so it's something very much to be concerned about yeah and that information that's coming in those devices is going to multiple parties that are making helping to make decision so it's no longer you can call an organization and refute a claim it's now you're announced ten steps removed from the entity which in some ways in a lot of ways removes the need for reputation option on there's even experiments beginning that you began in Sweden but it's moving here to place chips and workers the inducement is if you have a chip you can get a coat get the machine or something but of course what the chip does is give information to the bosses this is an advanced form was what used to be both Taylorism control every action that every worker makes so that you get maximum profit maximum control go back to the 19th century a business enterprise had a guy sitting in the chair watching the detective sewing machines making sure they were working but now it's advanced way beyond chips and workers day this is a big step towards a real dystopia but all of these things are around on there they're monopolized in various commands powerful ones do we have the question oh yes we have many questions a lot of excited guests here ready to speak with you next I'm going to go to Miko Miko you are now unmuted sorry I know them thank you and Paul thanks everybody like my question is um it has to do with funding let me just find it so with so many anti climate change movements and conservative sociopaths getting mass corporate funding how do you think it will be possible if it's possible to fuel democracy essentially how can we get funding for democracy do we even need funding there's something called people actually one of the major contributions of the Sanders campaign was to break with over a century of American political history in which elections are pretty much bought times there's very good working academic political science and Thomas Ferguson's pain which means done it took of his work which is quite effectively that you can predict the outcomes of election and pretty much just by looking at campaign funding goes back to the 19th century it's really taken off in recent years Sanders broke was that is the first person to come very close to winning the nomination and possibly the election didn't quite happen but it came remarkably close with no funding from the corporate sector no funding from private wealth no support from the media aided him just from people okay shows it can be done it's not the first time as a labor movement didn't get for attending hidden rights movement didn't get to court for chiming with freedom riders were being killed in the South the women's movement didn't get for Sunday and people can do things man I have to understand that that's how positive change has always taken place doesn't can't take place because some rich guy decides let's make the world better that comes from that kind of relentless pressure that we've been talking about we've seen that it works Sanders made it very clear that it can even work in the political system so Jane before on one side you will silence on the other side people thank you very much thank you next we will head over to Raymond Feuer Raymond I'm unmuting you now mr. Chomsky is it time to read Thomas mouth loose again does he have anything to say about this present moment overpopulation yes that's a problem serious problem but like every other problem that exists we know how to solve it there's a very simple solution to the problem of overpopulation it's called education of women it has been remarkably effective from rich countries to poor countries from Germany and Japan to Kerala and India one of the poorest parts of India but which happens to have been wrong I hesitate to say the words in the United States should say it in other countries it's been run by the Communist Party of India for a long time which is introduced as legislation one of them is education so that the population is decline in fact in the wealthy countries the population is declining so fast there's becoming a problem my latest Reuters it's not a panacea but it's a very essential and simple I move to deal with the mosses problem mouths words the other things like to providing them basic assembly assistance programs health care information about family planning all of those things that has a big estate but notices that's being killed not only by the Trump administration but by the holy far-right in the United States it's kind of striking to see people militantly opposing any any possible rate of abortion at the same time actively increasing the worst kinds of abortions illegal abortions you don't have some that claiming he's gonna have illegal abortions dangers here and then you go to a place of asafetida members so we expand expand population we expand illegal abortions in order to win some points for elections here I should say there's an interesting fact about the Republicans the factory sixties and early seventies the leading figures in the Republican Party that Ronald Reagan George HW Bush were all what we now call her choice strong Reagan when it was governor of California in the 60s passed one of the most advanced legislations to in the mid-70s a Republican strategist full of ivory not an idea he realized that if the Republican Party protect pretend I stress pretends to be opposed to abortion they can pick up the ginger evangelicals and without of northern castles so on a dime everybody switched milling Maddie the boy that's the way politics but there are things do real problem right there are solutions thank you very much and thank you for joining us again Raymond so next we will go over to Joan ki Joan I'm going to unmute you so you can ask your question thank you so much for sharing with us your time and for insights I just wanted also asking on behalf of my nine-year-old father who was part of the movement that led to democracy in South Korea in 1987 what explains the inability of the left wing to unseat Trump Johnson and so many others the counter humans like them because despite we have such a collective pool of brilliance of such great minds but there hasn't been really any sort of massive persistent or coordinated action that would overturn this near alike regime and I'm sorry I've been getting a little bit emotional but this what you've said is really struck a chord first of all partly it's what I said before it they notice incidentally that in the 2016 election as you know Trump lost the popular vote by quite a lot not to several men the right-wing Republicans these days we'll aware that there are minority party now that's why they're turning over heaven on earth to keep people from voting like in Georgia the Stasi agent probably would have won the last election but the guy in charge of the election commits to mission happened to be her opponent and he just blocked huge numbers of african-american votes there's efforts to destroy the Mitch McConnell and his accomplices with doing everything they can to cut back on voting rights to make it harder for the wrong kind of people the year I should mention something something is the other factor that I just mentioned about how elections generally are fought we know there's another general point that isn't discussed very much it's not even research very much it should be some years ago a very good political scientist who works on elections and so on Walter Dean burned them made a very interesting cut very carried out a very interesting study he take a look we took a look at modern voters in the United States but half the population doesn't bother vote and both of your elections many more he looked at their socio-economic profiles and he compared them with Europe turns out but it's very similar to the socio-economic profiles of Europeans vote forth Social Democratic and Labour Party's same kind of people here don't vote why one thought comes to mind because there's nobody for them to vote for okay try to create the kinds of so from democratic parties that exist also in the world for me that's terrific Paul obviously that's nowhere near enough but at least it's something that the United States take a look at the United States think of it for a minute it's off the spectrum and then all sorts of weights take a look at Sanders is main programs well universal health care free higher education can you think of any other country that has universal health care can you think of any country that doesn't have it left of the cart almost everybody has it rich countries poor countries the same with universal health care you know for free higher education none of the other wealthy countries most of you have it at poor countries like Mexico about it so what Sanders is saying is let's see if we can rise to the level of other countries in the United States that's considered revolutionary to reticles of Americans to accept what does that tell you about the reigning culture we're very much a business run society we have two business parties one more dedicated to business one a little more to the public we're very much unlike other countries that's an opening for activists let's do something about it starting with your neighbors and your community your state's on and on change it into a modern country well it can have the things that other countries have and then go on now there are advantages here in many ways this is enough this is an unusually free country there's limitations but comparatively speaking it's very free even it's compared with the other advanced countries okay that offers plenty of options it's got a long history of really serious activism seems like the civil rights movement the women's movement anti-war movement the Central America solidarity movements are something that has never happened in the history of imperialism it has never been a time in the whole history of imperialism when people from the mainstream churches in Kansas elsewhere went to countries that we were attacking to try to help the victims that has never happened in the entire history of imperialism it happened here so there's plenty of good things here to build on plenty of bad things to overcome that gives you the opportunities to do something they're there but you have to pick them up and take us thank you very much next we will head over to mark mark I'm going to and meet you I thank you for taking time for us today this is a tremendous opportunity for all of us I wanted to talk about something more specific what should we have done to prevent the Merrick garland disaster the failed garland nomination to the Supreme Court um in my opinion this was you know it had ramifications way beyond its immediate circumstance and I asked this because because this happened it can happen again and you know it has it has a ripple a a very scary ripple effect um what can we do to prevent this from happening again or better yet to correct this well there's one immediate thing and that is to vote the Republicans out of office on the Republican Party used to be a political party I mean I go back to the 60s I voted for Republican congressman because they happened to be the ones most amenable to work on the anti-war movement in the civil rights movement they used to be a political party that changed my starting with they started with Reagan to an extent but then particularly with Newt Gingrich Dennis Hastert my particularly Mitch McConnell it was the real evil genius of this administration the Republicans just went off the rails they're no longer a normal parliamentary party I gave an example with them it just gives you an example and climate change you go back to 2008 well McCain was running for president yeah mild global warming the planks in his flat for the Republicans in Congress were beginning to slowly towards some attention to global what happened when they cook brothers huge monstrous energy corporation had been working for years to try to prevent through this heresy from developing and recover employee they came in like a juggernaut bribing senators intimidating other senators threats of them chosen candidates huge lobbying campaign a strip tariff they did everything well the party collapsed climate change that's pressure from the right and what you pointed to do something extremely important one of their efforts to try to hold on to power even though there are minority organization and they're going to become more than one of the ways is to stuff the Kois all the way up not just the Supreme Court all the way through the judiciary with young ultra-right lawyers be sitting there for a generation I was able to be able to block any model the implementation of any mildly progressive legislation less when the darlin case was striking exams Mitch McConnell as of course you know simply would not let it come to a confirmation yes he said no when I finally Obama appointed me it was not just Berlin lots of other cases I think he controls the Senate this party was just abandoned parliamentary politics but he was able to stop most of Obama's appointments now evolved was not appointing less liberal justices he was appointing centrist moderates but they don't want that they don't want people on the far right all the way up and down the line and one of the results of another four years of Trump will be the pillow succeeded so much under control but no matter what people want they'll be bucked but the governmental whether that's part of the effort to maintain control for concentrated private power cord with power private wealth even though they're losing the population so yes was appointed to these very submissive it's a crucial incident than a major movement is going on and will continue if they can hold on to power that's one of the reasons they're trying so desperately to cut black voting now making the onerous restrictions that you have to pass to get registered when I couldn't pass we don't remember that section of the Constitution you have to say no it's that kind of thing even voting day what why is living on Tuesday so why hasn't he been spun bits on Tuesday because of working days working people have a hard time why can't people register on Sunday boy because a lot of the black population goes to church and Sunday morning and they could be all together in church they could go out to get registered afterwards we don't want to love that I'm there step after they work very hard they're relentless yeah there's a serious class war you don't stop you look at everything you can do to make sure you can win okay all the way across the board doesn't have to happen why try to destroy the postal service what Trump is trying to do which is a lot of reasons but one of them is you could have voted by mail get rid of a lot of these efforts to control things actually it's a much deeper reason for trying to get rid of the postal service it might occur to people to ask what the framers had in mind when they placed the Postal Service in the Constitution we're supposed to revere the framers we're supposed to Revere one part of the Constitution the Second Amendment just totally falsified oh forget that so we're supposed to love the Constitution carried it under arms why did the framers what opposed to the circles well there's a reason they wanted a free press they wanted a free independent press that's the way they interpreted the First Amendment so they wanted to subsidize the press why do you subsidize the press personal service very low rates for a distribution of the village journals and newspapers but most of what the postal service did in the early years you don't want people to know that then they might start asking questions and maybe there's something we can do through governmental structures which will open up the country to somebody besides the rich and powerful why is it that the United States is one of the very rare countries that doesn't have public broadcaster there's no BBC in the United States not that the BBC is perfect by any means plenty of flaws but it's much more independent in corporate media why doesn't the United States have why doesn't have radio why didn't have television programs in which you have serious discussions and debates let's say this way other countries very reasons there were big battles about its major struggles about it when radio came online in Berlin television came online the public lost private power one but just as in the Garmon case it could change there have been plenty of cases what can you do when the public in that case remove major changes so the opportunities are there just the gospel especially you have to know these things cashman's not gonna know these things unless activists work done and once across the board everything we've been talking about smoke they look like small things maybe if they had up that's why the Masters are constantly they've worked trying to control everything that's I don't know if you know the organization Alec the American Legislative Exchange Council one of the most important organizations in the country let's say it's a kind of a lobbying group for big business major corporations across the board and members of it they carry out very smart strategy they lobby States they try to pressure states to put in very reactionary legislation most states are state legislators are pretty much amenable to pressure and it doesn't take much money to you know Jennifer the state played for surfer in fact most people don't even know who their representative is do you know so they operate kind of in secret they're easily susceptible to pressure I don't have to make money for their next election campaign Alec is pushing through amazing legislation at the state level and if you do that enough it finally becomes overwhelming one of the things they're trying to do was destroy public education let's do it at the state level do it step by step one of the things they some of the things they're doing our mind boggling so there's a phenomenon in the United States that's both wage theft employers just refused to pay wages they refuse to pay overtime it's illegal unless it's enforced do anything about it so one of the Allied efforts is to try to make it unenforceable so no way to enforce stopping wage stuff this runs the billions of dollars a year Rafi's of Norfolk and there is literally no stone left unturned by the masters they're constantly that one of the most insidious efforts are getting pretty close for you is to try to get a congressional amendment that will impose the budget constraint constraints on the government which says you can't you have to keep the budgetary constraints okay what does that mean it doesn't mean you're gonna stop funding the military it means you're gonna stop funding all social program balance budget now in many states you have that at the federal level that's the end of if you get enough states to ratify it you could get it through and they're getting pretty close all in secret I mean not literally and see it's available to the public look you don't know about it unless somebody tells you about it you're not gonna see a headline in the New York Times about Fox News nothing said you hated trying to take away all you know your social benefits but activists renters we could go on which is for a long time as I say its class war the guys who have the wealth and power are working constantly everywhere to try to ensure that they can keep it and magnified it that's the rest of us let them do it do it wonderful this is a great moment to segue to our publisher Fung I would like to ask you a question thank you you brought up the Great Depression with brought to my when at the time you were growing up in Philadelphia from a poor family but you say your parents was very educated they read many books they went to poor dude reading plays and public debate and so on and it was the time when the emphasis on the arts and culture was the prevailing energy of humanistic tradition of inquiry that provided the people real comfort to ease the suffering of their poverty and whatnot I just wonder it now because when you brought up the late 61 came together and protest against the Vietnam War and you know civil rights movement woman rights movement and so on and I remember reading which road is blue after September 11 even though is written in the late 90s it's called achieving our country and he one of the few people we know because you also mentioned John Dewey in several of your last interview and I'm just rereading Louie right now on his book particularly his perspective of how to advocate vocational education and an academic education being equally valued what happened in the book Richard Rory's book where the radical life became coach Oh laughs they were sent to the Academy and then there was a difference between Coachella and reform and reform is laughs so my question to you is that in which way weakens again and this is why we admire so much about Bernie Sanders doing to advocate for education being free what you know if we don't achieve that goal how can we inspire um academic friends and Kali to write for you know working-class American to begin having a real genuine conversation with them so they don't feel neglected like the way it has been for so long with proper to this point start with tomorrow one of the leading forces in the strike tomorrow our teachers as I mentioned teachers from poorer States who are educational systems if I happen to live in our zone which has the second lowest funding for education in the country plenty of rich people in Arizona go to Phoenix havens a rich people coming from the Midwest and one of the in the Sun for the retirement very reactionary but it's like the immigration that's harming Arizona is not from the south it's from the north anyway teachers went on strike for here in Arizona a red state the slogan is invest for edy invest for education they're not just going on salaries are ridiculously low but they're not just going for wages they're calling for decent schools fund the schools make it possible for children to be able to learn that's the main thrust of the teacher strike had some effect it's got a lot of popular support I should say pretty much across a pretty broad spectrum they've got a lot of fun funding from people and so I see their signs are up all over the place they get something out of the legislature and the governor not enough but that's the kind of thing that mess the way you get good schools okay could be done from kindergarten to university here happens a lot of the state legislature dennings you as your BC colleges just trained people in business schools or jobs and what do you need all this crazy humanities philosophy all that kind of nonsense and it just is subversion and we don't want that I think probably the one thing that the state runs is probably the Freedom Center established by the Koch brothers to teach right-wing propaganda with the rest of the university military business but it can be changed and people live in the state if they want their children to have a decent education they can work for it and something to do it and in fact it's changing in interesting ways so but similar things are true around the country so I think the answer to your question is the same as the answer all Christians do you think now that we being forced down because of the pandemic in other words from greatest ability is to mobilize speed as his power something he learned from Mussolini but now we are being forced to slow down become nature need to help heal her body wouldn't this be a good opportunity for to mobilize advocate for slowness which is the overwrought of a patient respectful time Corinne everything has been so detrimental to the position of humanist inquiry so this is a time which we can write a poem make a painting conversation like this is the on a solution that we can really use as an agent against from exactly and we happen to be in forced isolation but in the modern world plenty of people have ways to communicate and almost everybody has a smartphone or something well so there's lots of ways of interacting and it can be used for educational purposes and for organization you can organize through social media being a workout planning we can start pressing for them in fact we can do it right now even in the electoral arena and one of the things that Sanders is doing right now apparently is trying to impress the party leadership for more progressive programs and the formal program of the party well you can say those are just words who cares I think they don't have to be just words you can keep their feet to the fire is that are likely with constant protest and activism kind of thing the sundries movement did the amazon workers do don't always do that lots of opportunities were always I mean part of the propaganda that were said is your hook you're helpless you can't do anything that's what Sacher with a famous statement saying there's no society you're just individuals crossed into the marketplace helping try to protect yourself we're gonna have the copy of Ayn Rand and say on prior to beat everyone else up and get rich okay but you know a lot to work together it's not true I thought we see it very dramatically right in front of our eyes just take a look at what doctors and nurses are doing I mean heroism working day in my very dangerous conditions they don't have equipment because of the malevolence of the government but they're doing it you take a look around at communities around the country and around the world a lot of them are self organizing the community groups are forming to you know help out some disabled guy first one being about civilian civilian culture in other words we too can mobilize and we to technology in our advantage if we know how to support it and that's what we're trying to do in the social environment yes I think more to learn how is not difficult we can start with simple things one of some of the best mobilizing I've ever seen really effective ISM I lived in Boston most my life is in a core area of Boston area few organizer started to try to bring people together who feel helpless can't do anything I tried to convince mothers of mothers let's see if we can get it if we can convince the City Council to put up a try think like in a place where kids have to walk to school so they got together they finally got a traffic-free teaches you something forget together you can do things under the next one okay that's the civil rights movement damn Lex didn't save enough lunch counter II get arrested would've ended he didn't came back the next day some white students for you to get seated where I was going to you South China yep very dangerous thank you thank you very much we have time for about two more questions is that good with you mr. Chomsky yes great so next we will go over to Justin who had a question about parliamentary system I'm going to unmute you Justin that's well I will go to the next question while I wait to figure out this next we have John John Sullivan I'm going to unmute you hi uh thank you uh known for the great talk my question was just about sign sign of American relations the president has been using increasingly hostile rhetoric against China during this pandemic and I just like to know how concerned do you think we should be about deteriorating relations between the United States and China in the coming decades well let's notice that the deteriorations are one-sided we're the US government not you and me but the guys around Trump inner circles are desperately seeking to try to blame China for their own crimes take a look at the press this morning big articles on how the White House is planning all sorts of attacks on China and mobilized the population so that everybody's gonna rise up against China because look what they did to us we're all locked up with China's for was it China's role it's not by January 10th with extreme rapidity China had tiny scientists had found the source of the pandemic and given the information to the entire world many countries reacted okay are in pretty good shape this one this country betrayed its own population more than anyone else now they're trying to cover up for does that mean China was perfect no a lot wrong with China but that's not why they're going after China they're going as for trying to enforce it was successful what you just take a look at the programs the Trump programs - the tariffs and the rest of it they have to say what they're doing it's not secret we have to prevent China's technological development okay the United States happens to be quite backward in Internet facility where I live have to be a couple of miles out of town so there's very weak signals well there's a country physik company in the world called hallway which has top-flight cheap equipment well they're going all over the world installing it but we've got to prevent them from developing I mean obviously you can't let people here use it but we've also got a hamper their development oh he's got China is way in the lead in producing sophisticated solar panels and wind turbines on electrification of vehicles way ahead of the rest of the world we've got a stop that we don't want them to succeed in doing that because it might just help people but it might harm the us power and corporate profits so let's prevent them from developing look I'm not extolling China we could spend two hours talking about hideous things that are going on in China you could but that's not what all this is about it's about preventing the successes take a look right now there's two countries in the world which are acting the sector's need to help others Germany's a rich country and they've got the situation pretty much under control and a couple of miles from Germany in northern Italy was a raging pandemic was China is Germany helping them there's something called the European Union is Germany helping no but they are getting help from Cuba Cuba sending doctors the way it's done for many years the Cuba's under the heels of the United States will try to crush it for 60 years ever since candid crushing sanctions terrorism somebody survived one model of genuine internationalism in the world so they're sending doctors to northern Italy with Chinese help - providing also doctors with lots of equipment this is happening all over the world do you see any other countries doing does that tell you something something to think about in fact the United one of the arguments today if you look at the price against trying to punish China is that we need them if they're sending us materials of meaning to try to control the pandemic that raged out of control because of our crimes now we have 2x China for help right equipment so we got to be careful about punishing them but you should remember that in the United States there's something called the Yellow Peril goes way back to the 19th century the Chinese are going to come over here and destroy us and we have to wipe them out with bacteriological boards this keeps being revived the nineteen fifties I was really the Chinese are planning to destroy the American the Red China that's easy to arouse this among the American population deep-seated racist fear of those Chinese horrible trainings now it's being revived again to improve Trump's electoral prospects that's the only reason doesn't even help corporations arms their supply tonight of course they're willing to tolerate it because the guy in the White House the wealth into their pockets tolerate these antics too but they don't like it they don't want it is enough the gangsters reelected they'll do anything for that kill a lot of black Africans sort of children the concentration can say whatever they kill a lot of Americans or whatever you think anything to get really in fact we see it so obviously in front of us it takes genius to miss it they take Trump's latest tactic that's all the problem of the government we can't do anything federal government happens have all the resources all the wealth but we can't do it but you do it the government you don't have the resources you don't have the opportunities you can't make using South Corea you can use your probe what lies behind that tactic pure sadism what lies behind it a pretty healthy if anything goes wrong which it will since we're making it harder if anything goes wrong we can blame it on the duck governors Mitch McConnell can come and say it's all the blue states that's because they waste money on pensions for firefighters and teachers and all that kind of nonsense now it's there from Mitch McConnell okay so if anything goes wrong with the virus the governor's for especially the group state if anything happens to work by accident the trunk and say look what a genius I am Sean Hannity they'll say you know greatest figure in human history you can't lose as long as the population stays subordinate and doesn't see what is right before their eyes which is not easy nobody's telling it to you think the little work to notice it that's what I couldn't so forth people like you lift the veil get people to see what before their eyes make it understandable if they don't have to affect it making change powers in their hands no that's back to one of the first books of modern political science by the great philosopher David Hume first principles of government open it up first paragraph power is in the hands of the governed those who are governing power and maintain itself only by forcing consent okay important words power is in the hands of the people they have to consent to submit themselves the knights and princes and corporate managers and so on and it's a thin system of control it's very fragile you expose it to sunlight it evaporates that's the job of activists and there's plenty of opportunity I think that's the thing to keep in mind have to keep in mind another appointment if you'd like we can transition to the poem now you've been very generous with your time and we appreciate it very much I'm sorry to all the questions we weren't able to get you today hopefully in the future there will be more opportunities and so without further ado I would like to introduce Zoe hit sig who will be our code today Zoe had sig has a book forthcoming called mezzanine that will be out in June Zoe I'm going to unmute you now thank you so much Sophia and thank you to the Brooklyn rail for an amazing conversation it's a true honor to share this virtual space with someone who is so deeply influenced my thinking both in my poetry and in my scholarship I'll be reading a poem called silent auction as Sophia mentioned for my forthcoming book and it's actually one of three poems in the book that has this title silent auction please let me tell you what it is to make market paint the sky purple K hospital down blue parents house violent table above the muddy need River I can see from my purchase where I'm writing now pretty pricing patterns contain damning dispatches think of the market as your rain it is rain high frequency rain and there's never a highest bidder it is bullets blown to sky and deflected high frequency bullets filling the sea with their shells pick this one pick high frequency pick no.1 you are in bed with your stun gun we have a market failure we prepare to cover the sky in sodium bicarbonate we already have Empire let us make market here where the huddling audience bids against us the other side is shadows the huddling audience bids against us against time against blueprint the negative space is time it is not enough to press into vellum and displace natural dye vellum that came from ancient mammoths that mammoths ate stellar gas at noontime being too large noon for him is always be too large amortize the Sun thanks so much thank you very much Zoey what a wonderful way to close an excellent conversation it's it's been a pleasure to have you mr. Chomsky Paul victim we hope to see you again soon we hold this talk daily at 1:00 p.m. and tomorrow we will have the artist rah rah rah rah is Nia and we have many more exciting guests next week thank you thank you thank you very much thank you take care take care of yourself thank you Tom

Channel: The Brooklyn Rail

Views: 22,331

Keywords: Interview, live conversation, artist, artists, poetry, poetry reading, The Brooklyn Rail, Brooklyn Rail, Phong Bui, The New Social Environment, Art, contemporary art, poet, Noam Chomsky, Paul Mattick, Chomsky, Zoe Hitzig

Id: VLwjqrfRAYM

Length: 98min 11sec (5891 seconds)

Published: Fri May 01 2020