Niqab in the Maliki School w/ Shaykh Mahmud Shabeeb || NBF 330 || Dr Shadee Elmasry

back and the Sun is really like a cure for us uh let's talk about our topic for today uh as I mentioned uh we put out a clip the other day from this live stream answering and and a Facebook post answering the question of Nik being uh Mak in the M school and then the reason for that is being or excess in religion Allah asked for everything to be covered except the face in hand and yet someone does more than that however we also noted that in the case of FNA if there is a fitna that this ruling then their face covering can become obligatory right even in that case if there's a fitna uh this was clip was released at Ramadan afterwards a very strange thing occurred because although the this saying of mine is very very widespread and I just transmitted what had been taught in 1998 by the student of and Muhammed in Morocco and trans heard it again many many times over 20 years and heard it from just this last year from so repeated what I was told which is a permissible way to answer questions when you're repeating from a reliable scholar but nonetheless and I think for other reasons probably other than the issue itself it ended up becoming a group of guys uh really almost I would say not just disagreeing like ganging up on me almost okay which was in the month of Ramadan and never had time to answer so I thought about this and I said look if the sh are saying something over this many sh are saying something there has to be a reason behind it so uh I began and wrote a Arabic summary I wrote the summary in Arabic first and then I sent it to my teachers and and other who are not my teachers but who I became connected to and I got a peer-reviewed paper which can be accessed uh at Maliki fic qaab and I'm going to ask oan to put it at the top as like a recent post so if you even if you go to Malik q.com you could see it there Maliki QA is a good website uh in which uh you can get uh answers to questions with the text with the direct source from the maab from reliable books not any book claiming to be from the medic mhab is a source but let me preface at the heart of the difference of opinion on this issue it's not really about n Only okay it's about two other things the first one of them is that when we're reading the same text okay when two parties reach opposing conclusions from the same text how is such an impass handled how do we how do we handle it you're we're saying that we're reading the same text and coming to different conclusions well naturally and this is the whole purpose of following a maab a living maab is that we we kick it up to a higher Court we go to the Elders of the school of thought right the elders who have know these texts better than us will tell us the meaning of the text we're not saying that the statement of the Contemporary scholar will judge the maab no we're saying that he will judge the meaning of this text that we're disagreeing upon okay so if then both sides can uh produce peer-reviewed papers or approvals from yes your your understanding is sound and your understanding is both sides can produce this then we could say we have a or we have an we have a difference of opinion no problem but if only one side can produce that and the other side cannot then we have to Simply say the F the other understanding is wrong simple as that or we could say it's weak and that's what I did I took ex firstly you made an intention make intention that I just want to go know what is the truth of the matter and I'm not going to go with a confirmation bias looking only for my side of things that's the first thing you have to do we went then and looked at the different and discussed it on the phone with different and in passing messages back and forth over time to come to this conclusion which again you could read at Malik q.com nikab and all that I have to prove is that this is what I said is a it is a Val you can give F by it you can say this open and publicly and answer questions by this and live by this okay what are the key terms here first of all is face covering in any form the word is the head covering which as we're going to see can be pulled over oneself to cover their face uh that's is pulling it down okay is what you see usually in Afghanistan it's a it's a cloth you cover your whole body with it right you cover your whole body with it the so it's over the head but it covers the face and the Torso and then theik is that which covers only the eyes uh sorry the nose and the mouth and it could be done in two ways I could uh wrap something around like this or I could pin a a separate piece of cloth to my hijab or and pin it down so those are some terminologies that you need to know okay to begin the original state of a woman's face and hands are that they're uncovered that's the original state okay by the text of the Quran what is the proof of this in the Quran women are no longer permitted to you oh Prophet right after this nor as replac ments even if you are impressed with their beauty okay how would the prophet sallallah alaihi wasallam be impressed with their beauty okay if this is forbidden how would they be if their faces are covered sorry how would their faces be covered how would he be impressed with their beauty if you can't see their faces so the mm Moon here the implication is that he can see their faces otherwise how would he be impressed with their beauty secondly and I'm quoting from this is not from myself it's from the great of Tunis okay tell the believing women tell the Believers to lower their gaze there would be no lowering of the Gaze if faces were covered okay there would be no what would be the point of lowering the Gaze if all the sahabat face in Medina were covered okay the next foundational point and this is really one of the most important ones in the Miki school as mahm Shabib who's going to Be Our Guest is going to explain right now the women the rules for coverage women's coverage outside of Prayer in regular everyday life is listed in the rules of prayer and there's no separate chapter on women's clothing in regular everyday life okay so the assumption is that there's nothing better than andah and Hajj is an act of worship in which a woman can in which a uh a woman cannot avoid men okay is such an act of worship that's from the so therefore what Allah tells us about a woman's closing in is her closing outside of let's turn's mic on camera will pan it when he speaks in yeah give a to my man tax season is over some of our friends are free uh out of jail I'm he got his get out of jail finally uh I'm joined by on if you can yeah if you can oh no not like that but if you want to put a second camera otherwise when he speaks right then you could turn it to him so you know what we'll do I'll go over all this yeah and then you can speak and then m is coming on to even if you want to speak other than that without the camera that's fine no problem so the first point being that uh Hajj is an act of worship in which there is no doubt that a woman will be seen by men and Allah tal forbids the covering of the face in this okay we're going to see here the she owes a fidia if she covers her face right so based upon this and is reflecting what the Malik is is that a woman's clothe outside of Salah is found in the chapters on uh and Salah in her everyday life there's no chapter in the books on a woman's clothing in everyday life so what what Mahmud pointed to and what pointed to is that the rulings are one and the same these are called sha sh they call that's what they call something is out of its place it's out of its place so like gold for example you want to know the rulings of wearing gold and yeah silver and uh you know gold plates and these kind of things it's in the section on uh Tara Tara which is something that you wouldn't expect exactly likewise for example has which is like things we need to know but is not necessarily found in any chapter specific it doesn't belong in any set chapter Kabam miscellaneous issues that are important to know okay the next uh so this is a foundational ruling and what mm shab what uh says is at the face and hands in worship and out of it are one and the same same H so if there's K somewhere there's K somewhere else it's it's K outside too that's his point here okay because the K is going to be established all right what about the mothers of the Believers this is a very important question because if the mothers of the Believers did something shouldn't we do it too shouldn't at least be men for us we have telling us that this is specific for the mothers of the Believers it's a specific rule for them has nothing to do with us oh women of the wives of the Prophet you're not like other women you have other rules in addition they have many other rules in addition to to this that's specific to them such as they can never marry again okay now seeing that this is the case now hence covering the face deviation from the rules ofah and to deviate from that is only appropriate if there's okay so covering the face is only appropriate if there is an external cause for this the external cause is custom being a custom of people or being or having a FNA what is a custom a custom for example the T used to cover their face because of the sand and it became something that is their custom and the scholars talk about the that that was their custom how did it start it started off because there's so much sand in the desert that they cover their face and it became a custom for them became their clothing right imagine if we had to wear covid masks for another three years probably wearing a mask will become a fashionable thing over the time over time and it become a custom or what is the here is when she speculates says when she speculates or is absolutely certain that a man is looking at her with pleasure and I would assume that her or her right her she assumes that or her we assumes that yeah so it's even for men you're not allowed to look at the face of a Woman They say without the permission of her and her sub and her W yeah you can't even look at her without the permission of her with pleasure of course with pleasure yeah so here that's the FNA if she assumes or speculates she thinks oh that guy's looking at me in a funny anyway what do I do let me cover my face real quick if the guy goes away I remove it and we're going to show this this is important because uh one of the things that uh one of my teachers made us do in Egypt is he gave us different books from the maab and he told us take out from the books like he would split the sections on the students and take out what are the like default rulings and then take out the for each R so you have the so a ruling is either going to be uh obligation or recommended or permissed ible or disliked or that's going to be the default ruling and then there are the he says meaning that it's placed for them both in other words that like rulings are not either wag or yeah it's that you have a ruling that's obligatory and for it to be an obligation there are causes for it to be an obligation conditions for it to be an obligation and hindrances to it being an obligation and if any of those three Chang it changes the ruling from one section to another so you could have somewhere in the books when you're reading a or or something like this uh you can take the impression that the default ruling here is Mak for example and then you go somewhere else and you know no actually it's permissible but it was Mak to a reason and so you have to read very carefully and when they give reasons for things a lot of times that's an indication that this is what's going on and so you have to like read very carefully and and really map that out so this is what uh and you pointed this while we were discussing this in in Ramadan that it is face covering right it's you don't do it and it's discouraged for you to do it okay according to to to to what we're going to cite here unless there is a reason so what's the reason she knows that a man's looking at her for FNA okay or she even assumes it now now we ask the question when when the appears what is the ruling are we saying she must she may or it is recommended for her to do so and the answer is that the the M opinion is that she must the M opinion if you know that she's looking guy's looking at you and glaring at you the dominant opinion is that she must do this and who says this sawi sawi said is obligatory on her to cover her face if she thinks there is fah now we have the opposite from abdah it is not necessary on her and is on the man to lower his gaze yeah Allah commanded him to lower the Gaze in the Quran not her to cover her face said it is not obl at but it is recommended innah and here we're going to have an because some of the websites that you see out there they say this is the ruling he says no where did say this this is where like you just mentioned context is important where did he say this he said this on the discussion of lowering the Gaze the whole chapter that he's discussing on is the chapter on right you come upon a woman suddenly I asked wasam so I suddenly see a woman the prophet said lower your gaze so what's the context of is talking here context of being looked at right the context of being looked at not M he's not talking about he's not talking about it he's talking about covering uh your face if someone's looking at you that's the whole chapter that he says this in his commentary onl okay now you have some has made a distinction showing you that although we have a dominant opinion we have on this big time we have sayings on this ah made a distinction he said if she's extremely beautiful she covers if she's regular like anybody else then it's men if there's if the is there okay all of this disregards covering due to FNA not covering absolutely that means a woman is going to get the male in her culdesac is it something that's recommended for her to cover her face no of course not be excess okay also disregards a Muslim looking at her remember Hajj Muslims are there m Muslims are there what about a non-muslim the non-muslim does not believe in lowering the gates there's nothing for a non-muslim to say that he has to lower the Gaze he doesn't even believe in it in his world view in his law okay as a result to that Al said all of the body of a Muslim woman is must be covered at all times in front of a non-muslim right and that's the saying of Alish who came later you don't find this in the very early texts right you don't find it in in the early text this between a Muslim would CAF right and we can ask Sheik Mahmud about this all right now wrapping up because we're going to bring mm on uh in in in one minute okay how does a woman cover as for covering the face okay how does she do it or actually first we're going to cover what about covering the face without a reason we talked about the reason now what if there's no reason the reason to do so is excess in religion and it is extremism I translate Hulu as as going to an extreme okay and I maybe you shouldn't say the word extremism because it's associated with terrorism right we can say going to an extreme right excess and it's says the woman who prays does not repeat her prayer because she did what she was asked to and more and she did more that she did something discouraged right except that she did something discouraged since this is or extreme now what is it that was discouraged was it the the way she wrapped her face yes and no or is it the full coverage of the face she in fact did two discouraged things the first one is covering without a reason that's what's because if I were to cover my face in a certain way there's nothing extreme about the manner in which I do it there's no about that there's also no if I pray with my hands or my face wearing a a coverage why is this because you may not know why is this because we're commanded to to to prostrate on seven limbs the hands and the face you can't wear something that covers your hands and face it's Mak so if I us to pray on my sleeve like this right say I pull my sleeve out like this and I I make suud on my sleeve that's Mak right or if I have my scarf like this and I put it on the ground and I cover my face and I make suud on it I'm wearing something that would block my face and hands from touching the ground so if she wears a garment like this right and praise with it she's done a Mak for that reason that's Mak right the first Mak the second is the when when tells you there's nothing and in the the wearing a barrier right in blocking in Salah that blocks my hand from touching the ground there's nothing about that for example if a guy is praying and happen to be wearing a glove for no reason like it's not cold it was cold then it's not cold anymore and now he's in the Masid but he doesn't want to take his gloves off and he prays with his gloves that's that's Mak because you now aren't touching the ground but it's not right there's no in that so what mean when he says it's the excess of covering right she she she did what she was told meaning she prayed with her head covered but she did more covered her face which was unnecessary what's the other evidence that we can say that this is what he meant is that if you keep reading he starts saying well what happens if she prays with her head uncovered so the man manner of the rap is not what's being discussed here it's the the amount of coverage okay this is important to say um as for the manner in which how does a woman cover her face the manner in which she covers her face we mentioned this and we take the example from the mother Believers AA when she went to Haj and the obligation to cover her face was no longer there then what is the manner in which she did it she states we were with the prophet in make at if riers came near us other people came near us we would pull down our head cover all right to not be seen by them all right when they moved on we lift it up again so what does she Pro by that she proved that the face covering is only due to a reason okay if it was men why not keep it right why not keep it now we have to talk about some other things too uh really let's hypothetically say there is a reason if there is a reason to cover your face there's a man staring at you in the mid there's a man staring at you in Hajj then what is the manner in which you cover your face you cover your face let's say start with Salah Again by is dead by covering something from the top why because if you prostrate on that it's not considered prostrating on a face covering it's considered the head covering and the books have said we're allowed to pray make sujud on a head covering right but you would not cover it like this because that's a face covering so that you can actually touch see Alia is asking this question what about a prayer mat this is why I said wearing coverage a barrier wearing a barrier it's Mak discouraged to wear a barrier uh when we pray that covers our palms and our face it could be separate let's say it's a bit muddy I put a straw mat out no problem let's say I'm not question the the the nature of the floor I put a a mat out that's no problem I'm not wearing it okay wearing a face cover or hand Palm coverage is Mak but the the that I pulled down is not face covering it's head covering and it's permissible for me to to to prostrate on the tip of the kofy or the tip of the turban so the is is considered a headdress not a face covering what about Hajj in Hajj what are the rules of Haj in Hajj a woman is the of a woman is her hands in her face she's not allowed to cover her face okay uh she's not allowed to wear a face garment or wrap anything around her face or her hands mentions this specifically if a man is staring at her in for example what how does she cover Again by is by pulling something down why because that's a head covering and he specifically says if she was to wrap something something wear a like this it wouldn't stay unless she ties it in the back and that would be wrapping something around a limb okay outside of these situations if she's walking and not in not in Salah she's just walking in the street and a guy she's on the subway how does she cover her uh her her face is it Mak for her to wear no nothing is Mak outside of the Salah and if there is you're on the subway and a guy staring at you you can cover your face in any way shape and form you want right wrapping it up you could up to down like a bandana all none of the there's no in that so the the discouragement of in Salah is being a barrier in is wrapping something around the limb the the the uh your limb which is your head so those are the main of the of the issue now let's go to the who who affirmed what we're saying here mm Shabib says I affirm that this is the maab and that merely pulling the Garment over the face is not the reason for the discouragement Okay the reason for the discouragement of face covering without a reason is excess and extreme in religion Dr Muhammad Abdullah the relied upon position amongst them the malakis is discouragement absolutely and the reason for this is going to Extremes in religion he says at the very least he the one who says maku has not departed from a well-considered statement in the maab number three ibraim sometimes you see ab and see some you see AB different uh spellings he's a professor at the Shar College of in morania and he confirms the relied of on position for malakes regarding face covering without a reason is discouragement because it is going to Extremes in religion one thing to point out this is after you sent them this entire all of these by the way I sent them this article I wrote the article in Arabic first the first thing I wrote the article in Arabic and I just translated it after after that next one of Medina he says I have read the summary written by sh and found it to be an accurate and detailed summary of soundly transmitted and explicit texts so we now have how many countries two countries so far now we go to the Third Country ahed who actually became annoyed this is even a subject he thinks it's an absurd even to discuss this okay but nonetheless he sent me a nice voice message okay and he was very considerate and and contant to answer back and he gives a total different perspective in addition to all this with has confirmation from he says in the Hadith that Allah T has remained silent about matters out of Mercy for you so do not pry into them he says this matter is not one of those things rather Allah has spoken about it in other words the Shar has spoken about it Allah and his Messengers spoke about it he says it is clear guidance in the of if a woman reaches the age of maturity okay it is not good for anything of her body to be seen except for this and this what he's going to point to is that if the prophet said it's not good for her not to be seen therefore there is a reason for her face to be seen it's a total different evidence that he added to this and he said that the face and the hands are not AA they may show them there's no disagreement on that he he confirms that this is how the women of the of the companions used to live in the majority right if not the vast majority okay they didn't cover their face from Men He says it is for a woman to cover her face for no reason is discouraged by and blameworthy why is that he says because it is a cause of Suspicion and doubt anyone who wants to commit a crime covers their face whether they're man or woman they conceal their identity by covering their face identities are known by the face okay if they cover one will not know who's a male and who's a female a male can then go in the women section if every whole society's wearing any man can go in the women's section right it's a harm to women any person can dress in and steal no one will know who's who right there'll be even if they're Witnesses no one will know what your you so this ISB has a quote that he says anything that is a becomes Mak okay so he says for these These are reasons because it causes doubt it's suspicion it's concealment of who is a man and who is a woman hence it is blameworthy rationally and textually okay um we're going to move to our guests before we move to Our Guest one last comment I have to make about some people who I did not expect to have uh nasty comments that got personal I said there are two issues about this it's not just the first issue is if there's what is the method of knowing what the text means isn't it to kick it up to a higher authority the Elder sh who know better than us what the text mean second issue is this thing for some other reason became personal and people really started almost like ganging up on me and I'm like okay this is happening I'd have no fine I'm not going to back down but uh I didn't have time amongst them who I didn't expect was a translated Facebook post which I saw from Hass Alani you know what he said I don't care if he disagrees that's not the issue he said nasty people I don't have the Arabic I only saw the English nasty people it's not people it's one person which is me okay nasty people have clipped out of context so what is the Assumption there the Assumption there is intentionality to lie about the and to lie about the so I have a nasty people took the clip I don't know what the Arabic was but nasty people took I said maybe someone mistranslated maybe someone took over his Facebook okay okay okay because sometimes when people have different uh Ms they go further okay the that someone can clip and sent to him and just to uh make the point clear on uh cuz this was other comments on taking out of context you were there sitting next to him and you asked and the first time I heard this was I was sitting in front of him um and this issue came up and he answered the same answer that you gave so then I came back the next day because we had like 10 days of uh many hours of Q&A session so I came back the next day with hashid dusuki in front of me and we went through a lot of these different uh thing and he was still adamant on the same uh on the same thing with quoting everything from thei that we have mentioned so it's not taken out of context at all yes you could disagree with him that's fine no right even me when I heard from I wasn't necessarily convinced cuz I had other as well so but the matter is as you said how you deal with these you don't now go into uh intentions and distorting the m and this and and especially when look this is a lot of mash who are saying this when it's a lot of mash who are saying this not just like any Mash left and right these are senior Mash in in some of these cases at the very least it should make you take step back and see that there is something going on maybe it's a maybe there is some misunderstanding that happened somewhere in the text but this wouldn't be if I'm saying if that's the case this would not be the first time that this happens no right and this is this is like the entire history of um this happens and then later come and they fix it and so on and so you acknowledge that okay uh if it's a then show how it came up and show your answer and we move on but to go and add all of these extra is not BEC You See this is not like issues that people theik to take out of like on the dog right on the on the dog people they take that the Maliki say that the dog is they understand from that that you can own a dog in the house no one ever said this and so that if somebody says that they should be responded to uh relatively harshly you know to to an extent you know there should be but when it's a lot of mash who hold this opinion you might want to calm down a little bit Yeah and uh I mean number one hypothetically uh I was totally wrong right why not assume that it was an accident that was a mistake does the person have a track record of being a modernist liberal right for you to think that secondly on top of that I wasn't wrong on top of all that yeah okay [Laughter] now second brother who I didn't expect a comment from from him was so web so Webb is a beautiful hearted guy I I really like him right but the one thing and and I have no problem with uh what he said in the first paragraph the bottom paragraph Was a little bit of a Zinger sh so he don't get emotionally charged up when other brothers charge you up get charged because this thing was started with an emotionally charged response that got everyone angry okay now first thing to say you ask it's only a few months ago you were in a very worse position and everyone was ganging up on you right or wrong for the Playboy interview and that sister that I don't know what was that you supported her whatever and then Daniel came and did what he did with you that was not nice right so you know full well what it what it's like to be ganged up on okay so that's number one that you should realize hold on maybe we shouldn't be adding these little zingers okay to the people because at the bottom you said listen if you're going to quote talk to us first or talk to his Western students first second thing why are you assuming I didn't in fact I'm about to bring on the air someone far senior to any Western students uh yeah Omar bring us mahm on the air that's why I didn't consult with any of the western students and again this started from you hearing it from Mash in Arabic why why consult why consult Western students thank you thank you thank you and ultimately the was with ABD Shakur okay who says that the only the the nature of the rap is why it's Mak that's number one number two he says it's outside of Salah okay uh the only quote they have is for that and what other quotes he had for that okay uh but that part of the rapping right ABD Shakur I have asked many people and I highly recommend you just produce your opinion here maybe we'll all learn something peer reviewed I got five I wanted to get seven I wanted to get two M from Morocco well the first one was got busy he didn't answer yet second one is that this paper is being was sent to the Moroccan feta board like the national feta board for them to stamp it or not or to tell me what they think of it we're seeking the truth we're not seeking to for confirmation bias and then get as many people as you can to support you no so you may have a point okay but up to now all the including ABD Al muak said no there's nothing to do with the nature of the K here being the rap all of them said this that we consulted okay so bring your evidence right or bring a peer- reviewed paper so some uh have something similar to what ABD Shakur said and then some of them to his post of the rapping uh other than that that that one is a little bit of everything else everything else I mean it's something I've been taught before then you have which part the recomended yeah or and these kind of things or for however the yeah yeah he's saying without the it's with it's and then we have uh ABD Hamid he said that it's not um it's never Mak but there's no distinction between yeah and this is based on reading the text uh and then you have other Mash who fully agreed and then others who agreed but had a different take like yeah and all of them we are not all of them but some of them that we mentioned uh we had discussions and we brought the other side and we went back and forth uh to try to get down to the bottom of the issue like uh Dr Muhammad Abdullah the one uh you quoted him you know I set him all of the other side and everything and we went through some of the uh some of the texts likewise he went with some of the students of as well going through some more details in the text so it's not like we're here just like oh how many people can we get on our team you know we're going we're going through the lines text line by line and understanding where is this coming from and is this something that you can transmit is there what work holds even without um not aware of one not aware of one that's Point number that's a very important Point without we say yes that we agree with that amongst other opinions without we found nothing by the way as says if you don't find anything that's not a proof but you need to find something to make it uh to to to to claim your point and number three that the nature of the r there's nobody mentioned that at all okay that's not mentioned uh uh so again just because we haven't found something doesn't mean it's not there the ball is now in the opposite sides Court to produce something similar to this m [Music] so I'm going to translate mm is an scholar he is the head and the the the director of the med Institute in Cairo teaches in Cairo recently published a 1,000 pag book on Malik and is a student [Music] of for [Music] [Music] [Music] can for [Music] for for [Music] mm shab first met in high school and he was studying in the AAR high school system and there he was studying f but uh the it was academic purely and some of the teachers weren't even strong and he ended up studying in the Masjid as many people do just to find a quiet place so he studied in the Masjid ofed in Cairo uh and far away he saw ahed maybe Omar you could bring up his picture please uh teaching a with only two people there which was strange would have had many people there but he had received some is that he should go and teach at the Mas of but was of the type that he never announced himself he would never um promote himself and he would just go and give his class and he wouldn't care if there was one or two or three people or more so he went and he was the third person to sit on on that which would become a massive in Mal through over the years so that's a summary of what mm just said about uh his his first meeting with uh she Subhan for 10 years he says he didn't miss a single d [Music] all of it 10 years and then there was times where either one of them had to travel or work then he uh after those 10 years it was on and off due to now um graduating and teaching and the shik traveled and he traveled but for 10 years as a student Mahmud studied and didn't miss a single D of Ahmed all right we now turn to the Q&A I'm going to do a Q&A with the Sheik on uh on the subject matter NE [Music] and for for n upon okay so the answer Sheik says is a couple things number one is that what were the Arabs what was the Arab dress before Islam is that they would in uh by and large in the majority case or the default case cover their hair with a scarf and throw the scarf in the back the Quran was revealed and said the has to cover your J so therefore the Quran affirmed the face covering uh sorry affirmed the head covering and commanded corrected the chest covering and left the face as it was number two he says what is the one of the proofs from the Sunnah that the sahabat lived like this without covering their faces is that you find many many stories in which somebody in a male says so and so came mentioning a female female such and such went okay so how would he know who she was okay if her face wasn't covered another examp example is a narration of a woman who came with her face covered and the female companions showed for this they showed that this was odd they thought this was odd they said you go to the prophet with your face covering she said I just lost my son at least I shouldn't lose my ha either she had just lost her some male relatives she said at least I don't lose my modesty either my so he says that when a woman was shy she would cover her face or if there was a reason she would cover her face but it was not the default okay we go to the the next question is going to be on uh is the women's clothing outside of Salah learned through the chapters of uh uh for n for uh said that the apparent of the maab is that the rules of a woman's clothing in Salah and and in front of nonah men a Maham is a man she cannot marry like her brother or her father and the word for that isab man a man that she must cover in front of is that Salah and regular everyday life is one and the same but he said it is is what is apparent in theab there is no specific text for this but it is very apparent that that's what it means however it's not impossible that someone would research in the meab and have a different opinion uh he also said that regard this is a very minor difference and that on this should not ever lead to anything beyond a cordial scholarly discussion or debate and that he prefers that these discussions be held in a uh in secluded format Forum uh such that people don't take different ideas that the people who speaking on da and and are having a which is an argument or and then they end up taking sides and then the hearts start to separate so that's the summary of anything to add any so far no okay any questions to do you want to add let me okay okay next question uh no it's first the she said it the covering of the face is only if there is a FNA and he said it is relative uh no so Sheik responds it that it's about FNA and it's about uh who was perceived as uh attractive and as a result he said you could go to countries where people are dark they're not attracted to anyone light countries where people are light were not attracted to anyone dark uh [Music] no no [Music] no she he said that it's both actually it's it's the attractiveness of the woman but it's also the Gaze of the man and he said a woman would know that a man is looking at her and such a way uh and that he continues to gaze upon her and looking at her in a way that she feels uncomfortable with but he said in the main a man would may see a woman and not look at her for for the intent of uh pleasure and so both of them are the uh reasons for the fitness so what FNA means covering the face for FNA it is the great attractiveness of a woman the point that she's going to cause FNA or it's the man himself who's looking at her in an inappropriate way as [Music] and Subhan Allah no agent now sh uh responded and I asked uh and I said that many websites there are some uh websites run by some Safi Scholars and I'm saying Safi not to put them down just to describe their manh that are very popular in the world in the Arabic world that states that uh in the M school is absolutely meaning at all times not in outside FNA no FNA um and then uh mainly FNA or no F so they who said it isah for her okay so I asked the is this was talking about if there's FNA or if or all the time and the Sheikh said even if he said all the time we don't take the M from he's not a source the primary source in the because he's from the are the later Scholars and the is divided into two types two types of Scholars the beginning and the L early ones and the later ones the early ones are from imik to abani and then the latter ones are from abani onwards and people sort of differ on AB himself is he from the he's like the figure right um and so therefore if uh someone from the said something that's not doesn't make it the final say the source uh and that when you compare that if it contradicts something from what is earlier or even if it doesn't it's not is not a source that's summary of uh what the Sheik said what else did I missed may have missed something from that for the most part that's for the most part that is the answer uh [Music] [Music] no so she said no I so I asked the question about what I had written in the paper as it said would appear to be that is speaking about in FNA case of FNA that it's m in FNA and does a agree to that that uh conclusion or does he find that to be weak or to be uh wrong outright he said no what really appears to be is speaking absolutely that is absolutely yeah okay next question uh for [Music] n so I asked the question let's hypothetically say there's a FNA meaning a guy staring at her is her face covering waj or recommended is it oblig are recommended or merely permitted or is that that he has to cover his lower his gaze he said it's wag and that not only because nikab will cover the face but will leave the eye and sometimes the eyes themselves are a place of beauty and we actually saw this in Co when women started to actually feel terrible because they were getting asked out or talked to or hit up or looked at when they were wearing their mask when they took off their mask no one starts chatting them up anymore right so they would feel offended but that actually proves the point the it's really a common sensical observation sometimes there is just Beauty in the eyes alone so he's say the is saying Nik which is covering the nose and the mouth only is not sufficient if there's FNA the whole face has to be covered he said it could be covered by anything by her garment or by uh a book or by a piece of paper like this as I showed and I asked about or by anything and then as soon as the man leaves she doesn't have to do that anymore okay uh sh said and the question was that what happens what is the ruling on a woman she wants to cover her face without a FNA like she's a regularl looking woman she there's no one around to look at her in this manner or the men who are around her don't look at her in this manner there's no F at all but she wants to come her face what's the ruling on this the said that at that point if there's absolutely no at all it's Mak to do so and the reason for this is that uh it's as if you're saying the Shar of Allah is incomplete Shar told me to cover my face and my T and the rest of my body except my hands and my face sorry my head except my hands and my face says if you're saying the sh of Allah is incomplete he also limited this said we're talking about the medi school if you want to exit the madaki school if you want to say I rather prefer the opinion that says it's obligatory or it's recommended there's nothing uh no one stopping anyone uh and nor would it be considered something like uh blameworthy if someone went and relied upon another mhab in a matter that they feel comfortable in right um so he he made that uh distinction okay now um I think we've covered everything pretty much right we don't need to cover the barrier or the this summarizes it uh do you have any other comments or questions for the no I think that's all I think we got we got everything uh just summarized actually why don't you summarize Yeah so basically that the default ruling is that it's Mak as you said before and then the ruling will change based on the that are there so it can become either recommended or waj so then the default ruling Mak and then it can change so that's there you go that's basic summary is that it is Mak due to excess in religion uh but if there is a external Force that which is FNA or custom or great attractiveness and Beauty abnormal attractiveness and Beauty then we have a we have a reason now then it could become or permitted and the dominant opinion is okay no [Music] no okay uh [Music] no so the question was that uh the final question I asked is all this we're talking about the Muslim who who is commanded to and believes and has a concept of lowering his gaze all this talk now we ask the question what about the non-believer who doesn't believe in lowering the Gaze nor does he have any sacred beliefs that tell him to do this the answer to it is that the mashur in the madaki school is her whole face should be covered in front of such a a man who doesn't have any beliefs about lowering the Gaze and he said that this divides into two categories the first category is this the the country and the land in which the Muslim uh are are are in charge and are in power and are in strength yeah and that cord cannot harm her then she then he shouldn't see any Muslim women uh in contrast to a situation in or a land or a country in which the non-muslims the Muslims are not in charge and her wearing of of Nik or face covering completely would actually be a cause of her being further hared I got that did I get that right yeah and then did the Sheik uh give a ruling on that or did he say yeah he said in this case then uh to avoid that harm she would not be required to cover and if she wants to hold the um the hardship that comes with that then she may do that okay so in that case she is I guess yeah she has the choice in a state where the non-muslims are in charge and Muslims are not in charge and a woman can be uh called names she could be abused in some way shape and form mistreated because of the because of the covering of the face she has a choice now she can either bear uh their that hardship or she can avoid that hardship okay and so she'll be avoiding it'll be basically the two Le lesser of two evils all right so so she I just wanted to confirm with the Sheik that she had the concept that she has the choice uh to uh cover or not to cover be if she's going to be abused we see in France they're going after them if you walk down the street here you may be called names right and there's great hardship and there are many people who complain of psychological harms because of the years of also sometimes odd for the kids you walk into you go and Ali's going to play soccer on Saturday morning in the spring and his mom is wearing nikab there's a hardship there people look at her strange and they may say say comments and today is going to be far worse than before with the right Wingers going crazy right I would say you probably if you're hanging around people you can get away with it because they're so weird and they love the weird right uh but if you're around right-wing people or just maybe in the middle you may have problems so in in summary she's [Music] [Music] well for no the Sheik said I said shik what is the final piece of advice and the Sheik replied that the final piece of advice is Brotherhood amongst the Muslims particularly those who are seeking the truth and avoidance uh that of allowing differences in furu furu are the like the branch issues or debatable issues or matters that are discussed amongst the scholars to be a wedge between our hearts and our Brotherhood amongst ourselves and that these things should be discussed if there is a great difference of opinion privately amongst uh the people um if there is an like that until we get to the correct answer or consensus also said that it's important to to recognize and separate between those who are out to change the law of Allah and those who are out to respect the law of Allah as for the uh latter ones who are respecting it and and honoring it and practicing it then with them they deserve ad and they and uh theas or the sword of ignorance the accusation of ignorance shouldn't be used on anybody uh and that truly beneficial knowledge is not the amount of reading that one does rather it's the ability to practice their knowledge and to act upon it and to benefit others by it so that is beneficial knowledge not uh so reading so many books or having so many quotes memorizing so many narrations so that is the uh um beneficial knowledge that which is acted upon and benefit yourself and others and as for those who have a record and they seek to alter the Shar in other words progressives and modernists and liberals he said there is no ad with them and there's no Brotherhood with them because they're altering what is sacred so he said when someone makes a difference has a saying or says something that we feel is wrong we have to ask what kind of person is he is he someone who always trying to change the Shar or is he trying to reach the truth but he made a mistake and if he made a mistake we do that in private and we don't insult him and try to attack him for that reason uh commentary yeah I think that was a good explanation on on how to deal with the text uh that last part about in front of uh cfir cfir men cuz we were discussing about that that if this is also then how does that work in uh in today's time and I didn't really have an answer for that but uh that that settles it so it's again coming back to that point of when you're reading the you have to be very careful and pinpoint down what's meant to be like uhit and what's what can change and what's established and what can change based off of context or time or or or or Consequences um and all these things that we always learn in and what are those things that are not and then how do we apply that and then that goes uh back to the to the to the Muti you know these kind of things the of that is not going to be a student it's going to be a mu right and it's his right to do the of that and yeah what do you think I was chatting with Rami and we talked about the method of uh uh for example albani and his methodology his methodology to go straight to the books he doesn't go to any Elders right he goes to the books and he analyzes and I thought you know what and the maab method is both but primarily you go to your teachers to make sure you understood the matter properly then you could read books and even when you read books you go back to them to the Elders of the matter to make sure you understood properly this is a rational thing rationally you're going to come to a better conclusion when there's discourse with the veterans yeah I actually believe that if a person only had to pick two if you kept the company let's say imagine you kept the company of of let's say especially the who live in Cosmopolitan areas where so many come their way the B the nomadic they know the but they may not have so many things coming at them every day nonetheless any of the the veteran Scholars you kept his company for 20 years another person he never was allowed to meet a but he was given all the books and the dictionaries to see what the words meant for 20 years then you have them you take your Dean from one of them you have a choice I toldi I would far prefer m over reading books and I remember very well was a teacher of Hadith and other subjects and we're reading so many hadiths I drive up an hour to read with him and then we end up reading like and I'm like how about if I read the Hadith myself and circle the ones I don't understand that would me make more use of my time than reading Hadith that I already know he said brother SHI I'm not worried what you don't know I'm worded what do you think you know that was really important because it's what you think that you understood is could be the problem what you know that you don't understand is no problem so I uh what do you think of the concept of mul the importance of mul IM makes an important point and he says that uh in the beginning uh knowledge was in the chests and hearts of men and then it became in the books however the keys to those books are still with the men meaning they say they mean the scholars that's what they mean by uh so the key to understanding the TR you know even knowing which books to use there's uh you know you go to the mash for that how to understand it you go to the mash for that um yeah there can be discussion and sometimes you end up searching something and you come back to theh and you realize you actually understood it and the she was wrong but it's not until he gives you that confirmation that you're comfortable until you get to the point where they give you the authorization that okay this is someone who understands who knows he can on his own he knows how to use these books he understands the language in them uh and he can interact with them and so on also a purpose of a DI is different from a researcher a Di and a common who deals with common questions every day um for him the going back to relied upon Muti who's been around the block the whole um knows them right or the M whole Maliki School may know them or any mhab is actually sufficient for him it's a you're you're just quoting yeah that so and so said this is the that's allowed and they they mentioned this in the in the books of fat that's not even giving a f that's that's not even giving a so that's actually a great point is that the the regular D he's dealing with people he's a and he does not have to do a a full on every that it suffices him to do from his and then everyone can go back to those if they have an issue exactly it's it's when someone is doing a nobody expects him to say right when you do a means like or how would you translate that best like you're trying to verify an issue or verication yeah a thorough verification of something yeah then you don't expect someone to write uh well my Sheik said right you're expecting some actual in that case that can only the only place I could see that coming into play yeah is on uh doing of different Mas or something like this yeah uh things that require judgment calls uh in that case that might be appropr because that's going to be the one who has taught and memorized and sat with for 4 years and knows the inside out and he knows the behind every ruling um because there's certain issues that come up they require a judgment call so you might uh go back to the m to get to what they've said and then you go backwards you work your way backwards to get to what they said and you would say this one made the Judgment call other than that though I don't see where that would come into play the the books are there um and we can look at them and I think that the shik may have skimmed that one section I have to make that correction I actually have to write that here about that he holds that most likely meant it and there's the the proof over here where that you're showing him and you're going through and you're trying to fix anything that needs to be fixed and that's how is back and forth it's a back and forth and and and uh I'm I'm going to fix that part I'm going to correct that part and then but also have to add that what he said that that's it's not a very strong if it's only coming from because he's from the so that was his response to that but let's hypothetically say it is there talks about that you can have Poss multiple uh of opinions that can be given fet by can you talk about that yeah when there are multiple sayings that can be given F the opinions on the are they're going to be so the is relied upon opinion it's one of the following it's which is agreed upon in the not not like mean only within this with the then after that you have the MH which is the dominant opinion there's a discussion around that and then the which is the stronger opinion and then there's a discussion uh when there is a distinction or when there is a contradiction between the m and the which one is first that we can leave for another day then after that you have the MWI which is you have multiple opinions let's say two or more mure opinions or two or more opinions meaning they're all strong or they're all MH okay how do we decide which one is is going to go there's a discussion on how the Muti uh will deal with that some actually say if you were skilled enough to get to the point to declare that it's m you have to complete your B sub you can't just say and then some say that you can give a choice to the must and then some say you give what's more uh PR like the strict the stricter opinion and some say you give the more lenient opinion so there's a whole discussion around there so these are opinions that you can uh you know share or that you can act upon the M they relied upon opinion and then after that you have the sh which is irregular like only one person had this opinion or a weak opinion and now these two they can only be used in fatwa due to something else like a or you know all of these kind of things when situations of fatwa come across when there's Mas when there's hardship and these things that can be used using different different maxims legal maxims that the MU will take into consideration to use it and then after that and this is very important there's one last thing called which is if it's an opinion that is not was not it's a weaker opinion or a opinion in the and it became widespread in an area and then they call it meaning that it's what the scholars have given fatwa by as the norm then this actually becomes the and you can't give F by other than that yeah and then this has two types it can either be it could be General meaning so for example multiple J in the same town right uh if there is a for it it's allowed to have multiple Jas in the same town not in the same mid in the same town right and that's and is it's a general that you know the malis have given F by in all times and places then there's ones that are it's only to specific regions uh and then to be able to use that you need to know why it was why this happened and how it happened and all the history behind it uh the MWI the two equal opinions is it by numbers how is it by no usually we're looking for for an us so for example if it's if it's uh if it's like multiple mure opinions we want to see two so this is an important Point who declares that something is M to begin with uh so there's a level of uh scholar in the M which is a he's the one who declares that this is so he does of the right of the opinion right so for example they mentioned that like IB Rush right is higher than IB Baza so you have different classes of that so like if IB and Ma are both saying something is M then we might say these are two M opinions whereas if it's IB Rush versus someone who is lower than him then we'll go with r so the so it could even just be one and one what do you mean one and one one one much within the and another much no you you need to know the level of each one and where they where they stand so like IB Rush is higher than IB and so on mentions this in in the so are there any who actually wrote down all the names of the and and gave that kind of classification uh that kind of grad book that has the grading I'm not aware not aware that books like books like the help with that um and then really every for the most part a lot of things are found in the commentaries on the introduction to KH beautiful a lot of these conversation where he says yeah uh a lot of the commentaries have that these details what else did I wanted to ask you I wanted to say okay if I remember um what else do we have here I think we mallah we covered a lot here and we even opened the door and this is the different live stream than before but it's necessary and it's good to have a live stream is just solely on and there is an assumed knowledge that you're going to have this is not one of the regular streams where you don't know anything you could still listen and benefit uh but every time every once in a while you have to have that and also it's good when these kind of like differences happen that we sit down and say okay here's how we got to where we got it's very useful because the it just shows our Dean is not taken yeah we go to the mash but there is also there is a level there is a perspective not a perspective there is something to be said for having the evidences behind something yeah and you know going back to the books and everything we learned a lot I actually because of this I'm more convinced that the default ruling of the of and everything is is Mak than I was before cuz before I would hear it from and you know here's the thing someone like who's an old man you're not going to go and annoy him the whole day you know show me this show me can you read this book to me you know he's dealing with hundreds of people a day um he had his time where he was doing the whole day right and he's now in his old age you you know there's a certain level of respect with older Scholars that you have you get the answer and then you have to go back and figure it out on your own so this was good for because before I would I would take it and if I would teach the M I would teach it how I understood it say and said but like now this has pushed me more in in that direction which is which is good and also I uh I'm going to add this section where he said that uh the cfir is is distinguished between uh in his position of power or position of weakness when they're in a position of weakness is different but when they're in the position of power to harm the Muslim woman then that she has the choice then to Bear it or not that I'm going to add that yeah and and that's a totally different like here's the the thing right um when you're trying to apply in different times and places yeah yeah it's in the books but also it's not because the and the like all the considerations that you need to take when giving fatwa it's not in that book yeah you know so you need to re-evaluate what's going on where you are when you apply a ruling so if it's a ruling that has behind it right and there are other things that are going on that maybe the earlier didn't take into consideration then that needs to be taken into consideration and as we said a more senior sheh is going to make the Judgment call on that not you know not me and we also have to look at uh realities on the ground uh we can never separate our theoretical knowledge of of sh from the actual realities on the ground and this is something actually pointed to in his voice notes is he said that uh why is this discussion even happening when is so widespread like be even just wearing hijab is not even happening why are you discussing this because these days you have you have more important issues where you have for for example we're talking about this issue but you have another issue of we you know there's always complaints that that come and I'm sure You' heard them too of uh women when they have you know women have amongst other women too right and one thing that's widespread is that when they have all women parties they go crazy right they start because the the you know the women have to cover up to the knees in front of other women yeah so a lot of times they're not holding that they're wearing very tight clothing and everything then somebody takes a picture and they spread it around and it goes and gets to even the men and the women start CU even a woman in front of another woman who is not trustworthy meaning that she would go and describe her figure and look to other men should be covered in front you should be covering in front of her and this would happen actually when I was in when I was in college right there was those women who would go around and tell the men you know this woman she's like this and you know they would describe each one that's that's a big danger and that's a much bigger harm which is also why the ruling on covering in front of non-muslim woman is the same because she is not commanded she doesn't have a sacred belief that she can't describe it to somebody and then you have and then you have women who are you know they wear the hijab but it's not hijab really because of how tight the clothing is and uh and a lot of other things excessive makeup that's being worn uh then you have the issue of premixing between men and women so all of these other things are huge yeah uh issues that are happening that need to be focused on yeah whereas this issue you can talk about it day and night by the way whatever proof we're bringing no one's covering their face right to let's be real here right very few people are you have to be a very heavy evidence and with no way out for someone to do this in a western Society I mean we show the ruling and it's up to them to follow but then when you see there's other things like for example like what's the bigger issue all the harms that we were just mentioning the and the and so on or a woman who is not covering her face around other women who are not wearing anything at all yeah Subhan Allah that's true that's true and uh final point that I wanted to make is that I'm sure somebody's going to say I cannot believe three men have a podcast on discussing women's clothes this is actually not about women's clothes this is about F and how to deal with f and how to deal with difference of opinion and how to deal with texts and how to understand when there's a difference of opinion on what a text means uh and what does it look like when you when you bring it to a a a an elder yeah that's really to me the the more important issue it just happens to be that it's the exactly and secondly uh so cuz we're not even preaching this we're talking about the knowledge of it right secondly we're going to talk about this issue regardless women or not because it's Quran at the end of the day Allah is speaking so we're analyzing Divine speech this is not uh go around telling women they can go write their paper too you can write a paper too and you could write a paper on the of men no problem if a woman wrote a paper on the of men no muslim man would ever say stop talking about men's issues no she's talking about Allah's speech and the prophet's speech so there should be no haraj in a man discussing a woman's matter if it's from the if they're really discussing the Quran and the Sunnah and vice versa right now preaching is going to be another thing right telling people what to do is a whole another thing right but nonetheless preaching should be what should be preached is what is accepted without any difference of opinion as an obligation and what should be condemned is what is condemnable in the by all four schools as Haram without any difference of opinion that's the the commanding GR forbidding wrong you learn those as the adab of commanding right and forbidding wrong um would you like to take over I have to go get my kids no we can close it up you good okay Al all right so always a pleasure to have shik Haron with us uh And discussing these matters we're not going to do Q&A we'll take to Q&A tomorrow I got to go and um do a pickup everyone for for Allah Allah I

Channel: Safina Society

Views: 13,037

Keywords: dr shadee, dr shadee elmasry, nbf, niqab, niqab gloves, safina, safina society, shadee elmasry, shaykh shadee elmasry, sheikhferozahma nouran, speakers corner

Id: lGqEtv_lBYg

Length: 98min 28sec (5908 seconds)

Published: Thu Apr 18 2024