>>> THE ASSEMBLED GROUPS OF INDIVIDUALS IN KEY BATTLEGROUND STOPS AND GOT THEM TO CALL THEMSELVES ELECTORS, CREATED PHONY CERTIFICATES, AND THEN TRANSMITTED THESE CERTIFICATES TO WASHINGTON AND TO CONGRESS TO BE COUNTED DURING THE JOINT SESSION OF CONGRESS ON JANUARY 6th. NONE OF THIS WORKED. BUT ACCORDING TO FEDERAL DISTRICT JUDGE DAVID CARTER, FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP AND OTHERS LIKELY VIOLATED MULTIPLE FEDERAL LAWS BY ENGAGING IN THIS SCHEME INCLUDING CONSPIRACY TO DEFRAUD THE UNITED STATES. >> HI, AGAIN, EVERYONE. IT IS 5:00 IN WASHINGTON, D.C. AND I'M SIMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND IN FOR NICOLLE WALLACE. THE FAKE ELECTORS SCHEME WAS AN ILLEGAL ATTEMPT FOR DONALD TRUMP TO CLING TO POWER. AN EFFORT TO CROSS SEVERAL STATES TO GIVE THEN VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE AN ALTERNATE INCORRECT SLATE OF ELECTORS TO CERTIFY ON JANUARY 6th. FORMER VICE PRESIDENT ULTIMATELY DID NOT INTERFERE IN THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE CERTIFICATION, BUT FROM THE WORK OF THE SELECT COMMITTEE AND VARIOUS OTHER REPORTING, WE KNOW HOW DEEP THIS PLAN WENT. NOW A NEW REPORT BY CNN REVEALS EVEN MORE HOW FAR TRUMP ALLIES WENT IN THEIR PUSUIT OF THIS SCHEME. NBC NEWS HAS NOT MATCHED THE REPORTING. IT FINDS WHEN THERE WAS CONCERN THE FAKE ELECT CERTIFICATES FROM TWO CRITICAL BATTLEGROUND STATES WERE STUCK IN THE MAIL ON THEIR WAY TO THE CAPITOL, QUOTE, TRUMP CAMPAIGN OPERATIVES SCRAMBLED TO FLY COPIES OF THE PHONY CERTIFICATES FROM MICHIGAN TO WISCONSIN TO THE NATION'S CAPITOL RELYING ON A HAPHAZARD CHAIN OF COURIERS AS WELL AS HELP FROM TWO REPUBLICANS IN CONGRESS TO TRY TO GET THE DOCUMENTS TO THEN-VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE WHILE HE PRESIDED OVER THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE CERTIFICATION. THESE DETAILS COME MOSTLY FROM THE ARCHITECT OF THE FAKE ELECTOR PLOT HIMSELF, KENNETH CHESEBRO, WHO PLEADED GUILTY IN OCTOBER TO A FELONY CONSPIRACY CHARGE IN GEORGIA AND HAS ALSO MET WITH PROSECUTORS IN MICHIGAN, NEVADA, AND WISCONSIN WHO ARE INVESTIGATING THE FAKE ELECTORS IN THEIR OWN STATES. HERE'S CHESEBRO DESCRIBING THE PROSECUTORS IN MICHIGAN. THE PANIC AMONG TRUMP CAMPAIGN STAFFERS JUST DAYS BEFORE THE 6th. >> OH, HE WAS CHECKING THE TRACKING. THESE ARE TRACKING -- AND THE THING EVEN MORE ALARMING IS THE WHOLE POINT OF THE ARCHIVE IS ONE IS RESERVED IN FOR THE PRESIDENT OF THE SENATE IN CASE THERE'S A PROBLEM WITH THE MAIL. SO THE GENERAL HOUSE OF THE CAMPAIGN WAS ALARMED AND WAS CHARTERING -- THEY DIDN'T HAVE TO CHARTER A JET BUT THEY DID COMMERCIAL. >> WELL, IT SAYS THAT ON THE E-MAIL. >> I FORGET IF THEY CHARTERERED, BUT, YES THIS IS A HIGH LEVEL DECISION TO GET THE MICHIGAN AND WISCONSIN VOTES THERE. AND THEY HAD TO ENLIST A -- YOU KNOW, A U.S. SENATOR TO TRY TO EXPEDITE IT TO GET IT TO -- GET IT TO PENCE IN TIME. >> THE SENATOR HE'S REFERRING TO, REPUBLICAN SENATOR RON JOHNSON OF WISCONSIN, WHO WHEN ASKED FOR COMMENT BY CNN REITERATED HIS PREVIOUS COMMENTS WHICH SAID MY INVOLVEMENT IN THAT ATTEMPT TO DELIVER SPAN THE COURSE OF A COUPLE SECONDS AND THAT IN THE END THOSE ELECTORS WERE NOT DELIVERED. THIS NEW REPORTING PROVIDING A WINDOW INTO THE LAST DITCH ANTI-DEMOCRATIC EATTEMPTS BY TRUMP ALLIES TO KEEP THE FORMER PRESIDENT IN POWER DESPITE HIS ELECTION DEFEAT, ONES THAT SPECIAL COUNSEL JACK SMITH EMPHASIZES IN HIS INDICTMENT WHERE HE CHARGED TRUMP WITH CONSPIRACY TO DEFRAUD THE COUNTRY AND OBSTRUCT THE PEACEFUL TRANSFER OF POWER. AND THAT IS WHERE WE START THIS HOUR WITH FORMER CONGRESSMAN FROM FLORIDA, MSNBC POLITICAL ANALYST DAVID JOLLY, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR AND NBC NEWS LEGAL ANALYST, PAUL BUTLER. SAY THAT FIVE TIMES, PAUL. AND FORMER FBI COUNTER INTELLIGENCE AGENT PETER STRUCK. AND ALSO THE PRESIDENT OF THE NATIONAL ACTION NETWORK AND HOST OF "POLITICS NATION" HERE ON MSNBC, THE GREAT REVEREND AL SHARPTON. DAVID, TALK ABOUT THE LENGTHS -- I MEAN THIS REPORTING FROM CNN IS JUST STUNNING. THE LENGTHS THAT THE TRUMP CAMPAIGN WENT TO, THE TRUMP ALLIES IN ORDER TO HAVE THESE FAKE ELECTOR CERTIFICATES AT THE CAPITOL ON JANUARY 6th. >> YEAH, SIMONE, FIRST, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING I DON'T THINK WE'VE EVER REALLY FOCUSED ON, HOW DIRTY IS RON JOHNSON IN ALL OF TIS, RIGHT? HE DOES ALL THESE INTERVIEWS, HE KINDS OF PLAYS UP HIS WHOLE I WAS PROTECTING THE ELECTION INTEGRITY, BUT HE WAS VERY MUCH INVOLVED IN THIS. RON JOHNSON KIND OF SITTING IN THE U.S. SENATE AS ONE OF THE CHIEF CONSPIRATORS IS SOMETHING I THINK WE OFTEN OVERLOOK. BUT I ALSO THINK ALL THIS INFORMATION FROM THE PHONE CALLS THAT WERE MADE TO THE ELECTION CANVASSERS IN MICHIGAN TO THIS EFFORT HOW WE SHUTTLE A SLATE OF ALTERNATE ELECTORS TO THE U.S. SENATE, IT ALL ACTUALLY GOES TO DEFEAT THE FUNDAMENTAL CLAIM AND DEFENSE OF DONALD TRUMP. RECALL DONALD TRUMP'S IMMUNITY CLAIM, THE ONE THAT HE LOST IN THE D.C. CIRCUIT, THAT JACK SMITH WANTS HEARD IN THE SUPREME COURT AND ULTIMATELY WILL BE. IT IS THAT SOMEHOW DONALD TRUMP WAS ENGAGED IN ACTIVITIES RELATE TODAY THE OUTER PERIMETER OF THE PRESIDENCY. THAT'S NOT THIS. IT IS -- YOU COULD PICTURE A WORLD IN WHICH THE PRESIDENT IS INTERESTED IN FAIR AND FREE ELECTIONS, IN THE ADMINISTRATION OF FREE ELECTIONS. BUT IN THAT CASE A PRESIDENT WOULD DO WHAT WE SAW KIND OF WITH BUSH AND GORE, THOUGH THEY WEREN'T PRESIDENTS. THEY WOULD HAVE THEIR JAMES BAKER, THEIR WARREN CHRISTOPHER ENSURING THE PROPER ADMINISTRATIONS OF ELECTIONS HAPPENED. THAT'S NOT THIS. THIS IS THE DIRECT INFLUENCE OF A PRESIDENT TRYING TO RIG ELECTIONS IN GEORGIA AND MICHIGAN AND WISCONSIN AND OTHER STATES TO GET HIMSELF MORE VOTES. AND I THINK ALL OF THIS INFORMATION, ALL THESE DETAILS ULTIMATELY SERVE TO DEFEAT THE FUNDAMENTAL DEFENSE OF DONALD TRUMP, WHICH SOMEHOW HE WAS ENGAGED IN A PRESIDENTIAL ACT AND THEREFORE IMMUNE, NO, HE WASN'T. ALL OF THIS INFORMATION SUGGESTS THIS STOPPED. >> IT'S JUST SO UNDEMOCRATIC. PETE, WE KNOW THAT KENNETH CHESEBRO, THAT HE IS UNINDICTED COCONSPIRATORTER NUMBER 5. IS THERE ANYTHING ELSE WE KNOW ABOUT POTENTIAL COOPERATION BY HIM WITH FEDERAL INVESTIGATORS? THIS TESTIMONY TO MICHIGAN LEGISLATORS -- PARDON, TO MICHIGAN OFFICIALS IS JUST QUITE ASTONISHING. >> WELL, IT'S CERTAINLY INTERESTING, SIMONE. AND GIVEN THE DETAIL THAT CAME OUT THROUGH THESE RECORDINGS, ONE OF THE VERY INTERESTING THINGS THAT WAS INCLUDED IN THAT REPORTING WAS A STATEMENT I THINK FROM CHESEBRO'S ATTORNEYS SAYING THEY HAD APPROACHED JACK SMITH SEVERAL MONTHS AGO AND OFFERED TO COME IN AND SPEAK TO THEM AND THEY HADN'T RECEIVED A RESPONSE. WHY THAT'S INTERESTING FOR A COUPLE OF REASONS. WE KNOW CHESEBRO HAS BEEN CHARGED IN FULTON COUNTY, GEORGIA, AND REPORTING AS YOU INDICATED HE'S SPOKEN WITH FOLKS IN WISCONSIN AND MICHIGAN. HE ISN'T SITTING DOWN IN PROPER SESSIONS AND SWORN TESTIMONY, BUT IT IS CURIOUS JACK SMITH WHOSE TEAM, FOR INSTANCE, HAS GIVEN RUDY GIULIANI A PROPER SESSION HAS NOT YET PURSUED CHESEBRO. NOW, ON THE ONE HAND THAT SPEAKS TO JUST THE HUGE AMOUNT OF ALLEGED CRIME HERE. THE VAST COMPLEXITY OF JUST ACROSS STATE AFTER STATE AFTER STATE THAT JACK SMITH HAS TO LOOK AT, NOW IT COULD BE THAT INVESTIGATORS AND PROSECUTORS WANT TO GET AS MUCH INFORMATION AS THEY CAN BEFORE THEY TAKE CHESEBRO UP ON HIS OFFER, BUT I WOULD CERTAINLY EXPECT THAT AT SOME POINT, THEY WOULD TAKE HIM UP ON THAT OFFER EVEN IF IT DOESN'T RESULT ON ANYTHING SIMPLY TO SEE AND HEAR WHAT IT IS HE HAS TO SAY. >> YOU KNOW, PAUL, THIS POINT THAT PETE IS MAKING I THINK IS REALLY IMPORTANT BECAUSE THE FAKE ELECTORS PLOT IS A VERY BIG PART OF JACK SMITH'S INDICTMENT. ONE, CAN YOU SPEAK TO WHY? BUT, TWO, WHY DO YOU THINK JACK SMITH AND HIS TEAM HAVE YET TO SPEAK TO THE ARCHITECT OF THE FAKE ELECTORS PLOT, KENNETH CHESEBRO? >> SO KENNETH CHESEBRO HAS SOME BAGGAGE. HE'S MAD BECAUSE TRUMP'S TOP CAMPAIGN GUYS LIKE MATT ROMAN AND MIKE MORGAN APPLIED TO DISTANCE THEMSELVES FROM THE BIG LIE. THEY CLAIM THAT AFTER THE ELECTION RUDY GIULIANI AND KENNETH CHESEBRO WERE RUNNING EVERYTHING. BUT CHESEBRO, HE'S LIKE, WELL, IF I'M GOING DOWN, I'M TAKING EVERYBODY ELSE WITH ME. SO THAT'S WHY WE'RE GETTING ALL THESE JUICY DETAILS. JACK SMITH ALREADY KNOWS ALL OF THIS. HE REALLY NEEDS THIS TRIAL TO HAPPEN BEFORE ELECTION DAY. THAT'S WHY HIS FEDERAL ELECTION INTERFERENCE CASE FOCUSED ON THE PERSON WHO IS MOST CULPABLE, FORMER PRESIDENT TRUMP. THAT'S WHY THERE'S ONLY ONE DEFENDANT AND ONLY FOUR COUNTS. BUT CHESEBRO IS AN UNINDICTED COCONSPIRATORTER IN THE FEDERAL ELECTION INTERFERENCE CASE. HE COULD BE CHARGED LATER. THAT'S WHY HIS ATTORNEYS ARE RIGHT NOW REACHING OUT TRYING TO MAKE A DEAL. >> YOU KNOW, REVEREND SHARPTON, I WANT YOU TO LISTEN TO MORE OF WHAT CHESEBRO HAS TO SAY. HE IS TALKING TO PROSECUTORS AGAIN IN MICHIGAN. >> HE FINDS REPRESENTATIVE PERRY WHO GETS A STAFFER TO GREET AND MEET US AT LIKE 3:45 P.M., AND SO -- AND I DON'T KNOW WHY WE DID THAT. SO MIKE BROWN -- I HAD THE WISCONSIN STUFF. MIKE BROWN HAD THE MICHIGAN STUFF. AND THE GUY WITH PERRY AND WHATEVER HIS NAME IS AND SOME OTHER FELLOW THEY WERE LIKE STAFF MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE, TOOK THEM AND SAID WE'RE GOING TO WALK THEM OVER TO THE SENATE AND GIVE IT TO A SENATE STAFFER, WHO I GUESS IS SENATE STAFFER FROM JOHNSON. AND THAT'S HOW I DON'T KNOW WHY LOGISTICALLY WE DIDN'T TAKE IT DIRECTLY TO JOHNSON BUT THAT'S HOW WE DID IT. >> REV, HOW ALARMED ARE YOU THAT AT LEAST ONE MEMBER OF THE HOUSE AND ONE SENATOR WERE ALSO INVOLVED IN THIS VERY ILLEGAL SCHEME. >> IT IS EXTREMELY ALARMING BECAUSE WE'RE SEEING PEOPLE THAT ACTIVELY TRY TO UNDERMINE THE DUE DECISION THAT WAS MADE BY VOTERS. I THINK IT IS ALSO INTERESTING THAT WE SEE THESE REPORTS COME OUT AS THE SUPREME COURT NOW IS HAVING TO DEAL WITH WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN TERMS OF MAINE TAKING TRUMP OFF THE BALLOT AND COLORADO. SO DON'T FORGET ALL THESE SCHEMES WERE CORRESPONDING WITH JANUARY 6th TO STOP THE CERTIFICATION. THE MORE THIS COMES OUT, I THINK THE MORE THE SUPREME COURT HAS TO LOOK AT THIS WAS AN ACTIVE ATTEMPT TO CREATE A FALSE SET OF ELECTORS TO UNDERMINE AND IN MANY WAYS THEREFORE DENY THE AMERICAN PUBLIC OF AN ELECTION OR DUE PROCESS ELECTION, WHICH WAS AN INSURRECTION. HOW IN THE FACE OF ALL OF THIS IT BECOMES MORE AND MORE DIFFICULT FOR THE SUPREME COURT TO COME BACK AND SAY WE DON'T KNOW IF THERE WAS AN INSURRECTION AND THE 14th AMENDMENT AND THE THIRD SECTION OR FOURTH SECTION DOESN'T APPLY. WHEN THERE'S AN ELABORATE SCHEME. IT CLEARLY WENT ALL THE WAY UP TO DONALD TRUMP WHO LED THE JANUARY 6th MARCH AND RALLY AND SAID BE OVER THERE. AND THIS IS ALL BECAUSE THAT
