New Audi RS4, Old Audi RS4s, New RS4 v C63. Phew. - /CHRIS HARRIS ON CARS

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That's an excellent video. And I'd have to agree, the B7 RS4 was, and quite possibly will always be, the best one.

👍︎︎ 7 👤︎︎ u/stevegasm 📅︎︎ Jun 21 2012 🗫︎ replies

I do wish he would start off with the RS2, where Audi and Porsche got together and made a monster wagon. This car combined the Audi quattro and power plant with Porsche suspensions and handling techniques. That started the DNA strand for the RS4 that made it so different from cars we've ever seen before. Audi ran away with the compact power wagon market.

The C63 may be more of a driver's car, but for the rest of us who don't want to throw our valuables and loved ones into a tree but still want to go fast through the corners, nothing beats the quattro stability. It's really the most usable power you can have, torque aside.

👍︎︎ 6 👤︎︎ u/torquesteer 📅︎︎ Jun 21 2012 🗫︎ replies

Chris Harris - the best motoring journalist in the world? I think so

Love the B5

👍︎︎ 3 👤︎︎ u/[deleted] 📅︎︎ Jun 21 2012 🗫︎ replies

I find it weird that he didn't like the dynamic settings or using the dsg in the manual mode. That's where all the fun is.

👍︎︎ 1 👤︎︎ u/thecheatah 📅︎︎ Jun 28 2012 🗫︎ replies
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The RS4 sits at the heart of Audi's performance car range. It is its core performance vehicle, which is strange because it's a small estate car. But that's the reputation on which Audi's built itself. This is the new 2012, 450 horsepower S Tronic RS4. But I suppose to understand what this car is, what it stands for, and what it wants to be, we ought to take a look at where it came from. So this is the story of the RS4. And so this is where it all began-- the B5 RS4 from 2000. This car makes me feel old because I went on the original launch. And I remember that day very, very well. Because we all landed at Munich airport, saw the estate car and thought, 381 horsepower-- that's quite a lot. And it didn't weigh too much. It was about 1,600 kilograms. The Germans then said, go out for a drive on the Autobahn. Go down some country roads, see what you think. And we all came back going, how fast did you go? And everyone said, about 175 miles an hour, and then the limiter cut in. This was explained in terms of tolerances. Because they said the tolerances were a bit weak on the limiter. The fact is, it was a genuine 180 mile an hour car. But apart from going really, really fast, it didn't have that much to offer. It was a bit loose to drive. It understeered. It appeared to have very little body control. It would smack into its bump slots at the merest hint of a bump at 55 miles an hour on some roads. And the brakes were pretty terrible. The break pedal was a typical Audi. The steering wasn't very good. You get the story. It was one of those classic Audis. It was a really fast car, but that was about it. And I've come back to it 10 years later, and I really, really like it. It's got so much character. And you know what? The turbo motor has got enormous torque. They only claim 325 foot-pounds. That was actually more than the car that replaced it. But it feels just so pokey. You leave it in fourth gear, pull out of a village, and it just surges away from you. But it was a classic Audi. And you know what? It still feels like it. This is a very fresh color. It must be some special run-out model. I can't remember whether they did one. It's yellow. It's got some Porsche-style Recaro Pole Position leather-covered bucket seats. It's got an Alcantara wheel. It's lovely. It's a really, really nice thing to be in. It just struggles with its suspension. I'm sure you can sort that out. I did some research on these the other night, because I might be tempted to get one as a kind of family car. And maybe if Neil wants to wreck it as well, we can use it for shooting. But it seems there's so much you can do with this car. MTM and other tuners have got them well above 550 horsepower, and they're still absolutely bulletproof. This motor, remember 2.7 Biturbo V6, was tuned by Cosworth. In fact, it was completely redesigned by Cosworth. And it's so strong. Really nice car. And do you like the way it looks? I like the way it looks. I think it's really, really cool. It just looks punchy, and big shoulders, and angry. And of course for the UK, where I live, this is the perfect estate car. You can get four people in. You can get a load of luggage. You can get your dogs. And of course, it's all wheel drive. So when it lashes with rain-- not like it's doing today, although it did earlier for a little bit-- this remains a very fast car, as M3s just spiral off and hit trees. The B5 RS4 was actually a cult car from the moment it arrived. But the car that replaced it is arguably the definitive RS model from Audi. And this is the car that kind of defined what Audi RS could be-- the B7 RS4. 420 horsepower from a naturally aspirated, 4.2 V8, 317 foot-pounds of torque, so less torque than the car it replaced. But a set of dynamics that were best described as completely un-Audi. That's how I wrote about this car when I first drove it back in 2005. I remember thinking, the biggest compliment I can pay this car is to say, it doesn't in any way feel like an Audi. It steered properly. It rode pretty well. It had a brake pedal that, if your shoe leather was within three millimeters of touching it, didn't force your head through the windscreen. It was just a really nice car to drive. And it left us all thinking, why would you have an M3 again? It was a datum point for Audi RS. But do you know what? They've been so hit and miss since, that I think this B7 RS4 presents perhaps the biggest challenge to the new car. Because the new car's engine is very closely related to this one. It has a DSG gearbox. Now that's going to make it faster and more efficient. But this car's six-speed manual, is an utter, utter enjoy. It's so much nicer than the shift in the B5. In fact, as a package, the RS4 Avant, to me, still looks like one of the most attractive small cars on sale. It's beautifully proportioned. And BMW, to this day, must be thinking, why didn't we build a small estate car, because Audi's running away with the marketplace. The shift from B5 to B7 brought a completely different character as well. Whereas the turbocharged B5 is all about torque and surging performance, this is a V8 you've got to rev out. It wants to get beyond 7,000 RPM whenever you can. This is the first time I've ever driven them back to back. And I have to say, it's quite eye-opening because the B5 is a more effortless car and gives its performance more easily. This thing, you've got to be right up. And you do enjoy it when you're up it. But then it uses so much fuel. And it is just quite busy. What does the new RS4 have to do to be better than this car? It has to be very, very talented. It really does. I can't see it being an awful lot faster, because it's going to weigh a bit more, even though it's got a bit more power and torque. That should even out the power to weight ratio. I'm sure the DSG gearbox will do some good things for it. But do you know what? As an all-around package, I think it's going to struggle to be better than this car. It doesn't seem like five years since the B7 RS4 left us. Maybe that's because it still looks and feels so fresh. The new car is supposedly faster, more efficient, and better handling. But I also want to know if Audi has returned to the old car's character. It just felt so right. Will the new one? Oh, we're in Austria, by the way. Now as ever with these press drives, they are a less than perfect affair. We haven't got much time. The roads are a bit wet. That kind of helps the four-wheel drive RS4, I suppose. But it'd be nice to spend a bit more time with the car to get to know it. But in the time I spent with it, there are two things I want to talk about. First of all, choice-- choice of electronics, chassis configuration. I think the RS4 probably has too many. I get in it and I can choose how the throttle responds. I can choose how the steering responds. I can choose how the dampers respond, how the differential responds. And do you know what? I've been playing with it for three hours and on a mixture of roads, and I've not found a single setting that kind of does it all for me. I'm constantly having to fiddle and play. And I don't necessarily like that. The other thing is torque. I want to talk about torque. Because I think this car is in some ways defined by it. It doesn't have much. And 317 foot-pounds is about the same as the last car. And it weighs a little bit more. It still revs. It'll rev to beyond 8,000. And it's utterly glorious when you do that. The question is, how often do you actually do that on the road? Torque is such a useful commodity for getting around and living. And the RS4 is actually a wonderful car for just living. First off, in the RS4 you avoid all the dynamic settings. Dynamic chassis gives you damping that basically wants to throw you off the road. It's so stiff. Avoid the dynamic steering. To me, it adds a load of weight that I don't want. It's electromechanical in this car. So yeah, we're back in the realms of not quite knowing where we are on the road. There's not much feel. I mean, Audi has traditionally struggled to give steering feel with a hydraulic pump. The combination of Audi and electromechanical steering slightly fills me with the fear of God. This is the optional dynamic steering, which is a variable ratio. So it's quick at low speed and slow on the motorway. I didn't find it intuitive and would just have the normal rack myself. On these damp roads, though, it's a really fast, capable, competent car. But it's one that feels big. Does it feel better than an RS5, which is a car I didn't actually get on with? I think it does feel a little bit better. I think there is some of the suppleness there was in the B7 RS4. But I still-- you know what? I don't think it's a return to their absolute glory days of that last B7 RS4. I'd want to spend a bit more time in it to really get to know it. But you know what? If it was just exceptional, wouldn't it be leaping out at me straight away? Wouldn't I be thinking now, I want one of these? And I'm kind of not. OK, torque. 317 foot-pounds is quite a lot. But you have to work this car to get around the place. Just leave it in drive, and then use it as an automatic gearbox. And I reckon, unless you absolutely pin this thing, you're at the mercy of fast diesels. And that should not be the case in a car that's got an RS badge on it. As a package though, this remains a really nice car. I've always found the RS4 a bit confusing. Because though it's never been quite as good to drive as the equivalent M3-- although the last one did run it very, very close-- but as something to live with, as a package to live and use every single day, the practicality of throwing the dog in the back, have the children fight behind you, and have your lady wife next to you, it's been a lovely car. It's just been so usable. And when you wanted to go fast, it would go fast. And it had the all-wheel drive traction as well. That hasn't really changed. It still is a compelling package, because it has all those things. It has space, all-wheel drive. And for me as UK buyer, road user, traction is everything. Much as I like doing skiddy stuff, well, I don't live my life like that. I'd like to go sideways about every single roundabout on the way to Tesco, but sadly, it's just not practical. I also think this car looks great. They've got the bubbled arches just right. The interior's high quality. Audis are just items, aren't they? They're beautiful items. And we know that. Gearbox? Well, it's so effective and efficient. The shifts are really fast. In automatic mode, it's predicting what you want so well. Do I miss the manual? I kind of do. But I have to say, in this kind of car, this gearbox does work. It's not that bad. And because it's so intuitive and sharp, I'm not going to kill it with the gearbox. As I said, I think the torque is a bit more of an issue. Some stats on that chassis. The crown-gear center differential controls [INAUDIBLE] 40, 60 in normal driving. But up to 70% can go forwards and 85% backwards in extreme cases. There's torque vectoring too. Those wavy break discs shave three kilograms. 0 to 60 takes 4.7 seconds. Top speed is 155 or 174, if you pay some crazy sum to have the limiter lifted. When you drive it like this, and you get all that noise, it's pretty magnificent. And I wonder whether Audi did make the right decision to not have a turbocharged engine. Because that's the crux of this. If this car had one or two turbocharges, it would have a lot more role on performance. It would be a faster car in everyday driving. I suppose there is a slight mismatch going on here. The powertrain in this car is really at you. It wants you to get up. And it wants you to get your foot down, to get all the performance, to get beyond 8,000. Below six, it's just not that quick. The chassis, though, isn't quite as willing to play the game. Because in the harsh chassis settings, it doesn't perform that well. It's just too stiff. And in the softer ones, well, it's just a little bit softer. But on damp roads like this, there's no denying. It's a clever thing. Maybe Audi organized the rain so that it would just show off this car to the best of its abilities. But what's this car up against? To me, the RS4 has become a car that anyone that wants compact performance that doesn't look too punchy from the outside, but has subtle strength and is kind of visible to those who know what they're looking for, to me, the RS4 is that car. It kind of defines the marketplace. But there is one other car that kind of does it as well. It might even be a bit more exuberant. And do you know what? Even though we're in Austria, we just happen to have one with us. Now, in the world of the mental, small estate car, this C63 AMG does kind of reign supreme, doesn't it? 457 horsepower-- and this is a key figure in this little competition here-- 442 foot-pounds of torque. That's over 120 foot-pounds more than the Audi RS4. And on the road, it absolutely dominates the way the cars behave, or the differences between them anyway. Because the Merc-- you really can leave it in a lower gear and haul. In the Audi, you've really got to row the gearbox. It's a very different engine. The Audi feels very motorsport, very rev-hungry. It makes that quite distinctive, almost DTM-style noise that they've engineered into it. This car is just a muscle car. It really is just mopar out of Stuttgart. It's absolutely sensational. It's rear-wheel drive so today, on slippery roads, it's interesting. And the traction difference between the two isn't actually as massive as I thought it would be. And the Mercedes, of course, is just massive fun when it does start to move around a bit. You enjoy yourself. But let's come back to these being everyday cars. Which one would you choose? Come back for that in a minute. Let's do a bit more driving. In the Mercedes, you don't configure anything. You get in, put a key in a hole, turn it, and go. It has the MCT gearbox, which means that you can put it in a manual mode that will shift quickly. But it's still nothing like as fast as the DSG. As an automatic, it's very, very nice. You can just leave it in drive. And it seems to just shift when you want it to shift. It's amazing. It's like it's sort of linked into your head. Steering, again hydraulic-- it's just simpler than the Audi. It's a theme that runs through this car. It's not as complex on paper. But when you get in it, it just kind of works. It doesn't have a load of chassis settings, and throttle settings, and what have you. It just has a massive 6.2 liter V8, nice hydraulic steering, nice damping, and it just gets on with it. And I find that recipe quite compelling. I think it's a lesson for perhaps where we might go in the future. Just because electronics give us a load of choice doesn't mean we need the choice. The C63, then, is probably a better one-stop option, than the RS4. That doesn't mean I think it's the overall better car. But I need to do a bit more driving. So we'll come back to that in a second. There's no doubt that the Mercedes is the faster car as well. It just picks up from zero revs, and it goes at any point in the rev range below about 8,000, because the Mercedes won't rev to 8,000, that is. This car just feels punchier to me. And this doesn't even have the optional performance pack. And it doesn't have the optional differential. If it had both of those, I think it would be a foregone conclusion. But then the price gets quite punchy. The Audi is actually a bit of a bargain for the money. But I'd like to know what the options are. Because you know what it's like with these German cars-- tick a few boxes, and before you know it, you've got an expensive machine. OK, these are the facts. The RS4 looks great, goes fast, and is especially good in the wet. The trouble is, it lacks torque. The optional dynamic steering is pants. The optional Dynamic Ride Control with MMI plus makes the car too bloody complicated to drive and to do voiceovers about. In the B7, you just got in and it felt right. In the B8, you have to fiddle. From the apex to the exit of the corner, the new car is a real improvement. But the rest of it is just lacking a touch of magic, which is harsh, because the C63 is dripping with magic.
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Channel: THE DRIVE
Views: 2,314,020
Rating: undefined out of 5
Keywords: Audi, RS4, b8, b5, b7, V6, V8, mercedes, amg, c63, 6.3, 6.2, estate, wagon, quattro, RS2, 4wd, all, wheel, drive, performance, super, comparison, test, review, bmw, m3, chris, harris, on, cars
Id: 4HYdVXmYA-w
Channel Id: undefined
Length: 17min 5sec (1025 seconds)
Published: Wed Jun 20 2012
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