Neo-Paganism, Abortion, and the Fall of the West w/ John Daniel Davidson

you ready ready John lovely to have you thanks for having me yes yes um I was telling you earlier it was Andrew so I get people write to me daily asking to come on the show and my good friend Andrew Jones Tech wrote to me he went trust me you need to have John done anything Andrew tells me I just do very good very good I was telling you earlier I I knew Andrew at Hillsdale College but have not uh that was 20 years ago MH and uh he we got back in touch when he launched a new poity and um we we emailed and corresponded a bit about that and then when I came to write the book at some point I was like I need a medieval historian to check me here so I knew the perfect guy Andrew Jones what kind of feedback did he give you he he gave me some helpful feedback about about uh uh paganism in Rome um some some uh helpful suggestions about including paganism in the Old Testament uh and and just generally kind of fked my first couple of chapters which I I I needed um so he was he's he made it into the acknowledgments uh as a as as one of the people that kept me on the rails uh as I kind of tried to make this argument we'll put a link in the description below to the book but could you just sum up the book you've written real real quick yeah the book is called Pagan America the decline of Christianity in the Dark Age to come and the basic point is that we are are entering into and are in now a post-christian era and uh what that means for America is a a transformation of what our country has been um into something new uh postchristian America will will be um will be a place where self Republican self-government individual rights the rule of law the consent of the govern all the things that we associate and with America will go away and instead of a republic of citizens we we will become slaves in a pagan Empire right Pagan Empires were always uh based on slavery they're always based on power the the rule of the powerful over the week uh and a denial of of of anything like individual rights or in or the the inherent worth of the individual right the Christian doctrine of aod Day made America possible and without Christianity as the as The Guiding Light of our Civic life right uh the the the things that make America America will will disappear and I argue that that's not going to happen you know gradually it's going to it's going to happen quickly and and I think um it's accelerating as we speak you know the the predictions right now are going to be out of date in a few years um I think close observers of our culture of our political discourse can can see the acceleration of of this uh almost in real time and and uh and I think as we discard Christianity we also are going to discard the the inheritance of Christianity right liberalism relies on an inheritance that it cannot itself reproduce and so we move into this post-christian era uh we are we are going to move uh into the only other thing that is that that is available to us besides Christianity which is paganism right paganism never really went away uh it's always been there waiting in the wings and it is it is the default sort of state of man absent Christianity okay and and that's where we're headed right okay wow I want to I'm really interested to know how you got the idea for this book and but before I get to that what what do we mean by paganism and will this paganism that is coming about look different to previous yeah paganism yes the short answer is yes it will and so I explained this in the book when I say Pagan America or or we we are entering a pagan era I don't mean that there's going to be uh temples to Artemis and Zeus in Time Square although there might be uh but the paganism of uh of America uh and sort of the neopaganism that I'm describing isn't going to look exact exactly like ancient paganism right um it it's not going to be sort of um uh sincere polytheism right of the kind that we saw we have seen in in ages past um what I may mean by by Pagan America is is a kind of return to the Pagan ethos which is which is which could be summed up um could be summed up succinctly by the by the the ancient saying nothing is true Everything is permissed right it's a radical moral relativism that that that posits no fixed truth no fixed reality that that human will and power are are what decides what is right um and we we can become or be uh anything we have we imagine or desire or have the power to enact right I can see how that would follow from nothing is true everything is permitted um but is that a necessary component of paganism like if I was to say what makes a Christian a Christian there's all these different types of Christians you know you might say well they believe in the Trinity or they believe that Jesus is the second person of the Trinity they have something like baptism right you would have the bare minimum that's required for someone to be a Christian throughout history what is the bare minimum to be a pagan right right uh the bare minimum to be a pagan uh is is to uh we might say the bare minimum to be Pagan is a is like a nature worship right U which is in that that's I think where most people's mind goes to like you know worship the sun worship the moon but but what is sort of underneath that and I get into this in the book and relying heavily on GK Chesterton who talks about this at length in in Everlasting man um what what is underneath uh nature worship is this kind of U moral relativism right uh that and you see this reflected in in uh in ancient Greek and Roman mythology right the the um uh the inconsistency and uh and fickleness of the Greek and Roman gods they were very very much like human beings right uh jealous uh impulsive you know angry violent um and and very powerful at the same time uh and and we see I think throughout uh ancient paganism this this uh tendency to to see not to see the world or understand the world in in absolute terms or certainly when it comes to morality uh moral absolutes but but in relativistic terms right and in in terms of of creating ourselves and creating our own reality uh uh creating our our own truths uh by by which to live and by which to order society and in in Pagan societies and Pagan Empires from ancient Rome to the ancient azcs across the board uh that took certain forms and it always took the form of a slave Empire in which a cast of powerful uh strong people ruled over everybody else um and and there's remarkable consistency across cultures and Times of P what Pagan societies looked like how they were structured uh and and uh what political forms they took uh and and I argue that this is a this is a result of of this fundamental the the the phrase nothing is true everything is permitted comes from a 9th century uh Arab warlord uh the founder of the of the the group that where we get the word Assassins right um uh that is that in terms of a basic philosophical yeah starting point is is what you might say the ba the bare minimum for being a pagan is to suppose that nothing is true everything that you can get away with is permitted um and that's yeah that's also a you know if you take liberalism let's say to its logical end that that's where we end up right and that's where we are you yeah you you you get that sense already from Liberal I won't mention names popular people on YouTube who's ethos or uh Foundation of Ethics seems to be do whatever you want I'll do whatever I want we're America we can be free and just you don't interfere with me that sounds very much like everything is permitted and there's no such thing as truth right um is intentional worship always associated with paganism what I mean by that is I suppose someone could say well we're all worshiping something whether we know it or not but in Pagan cultures has it always taken the form of a real directed intentional worship of something or some things in the past it it has and and I'm and I argue that in the future it will again and we're sort of in this like um historically unique time uh a brief period of time in the grand scheme of things where we've kind of tricked ourselves into thinking we're not worshiping anything we are we we've we've just um we're Deni we we're denying that what what what it is that we're actually doing CS Lewis talks about this and I devote a whole chapter in the book about what he calls the materialist magician right which is a phrase borrowed from the screw tape letters but he expounds on this idea in in the abolition of man in in novelistic form in That Hideous Strength talking about um in in the context of the screw tape letters he's you know Screw tape is telling his nephew wormwood that um for now we want to keep uh keep our existence hidden from from the the subject the patient as he calls him um because we we we don't want to fall into um we want to keep modern man thinking that Devils don't exist but but we we nevertheless want him to um be enthrall to forces spir you know we want him to be spiritual but not religious in other words the materialist magician denies the spiritual world uh but but is at the same time enthrall to forces spiritual for forces that they won't consciously recognize and so it's it's a and and screw tape talks about that they hope at some point to to um create a man the materialist magician who is both materialist uh and and a magician right uh and and if they can do that then the end will be in sight the war will be one um and and that is the future that we're headed to you so he puts this in the form of of these characters in That Hideous Strength the the doctors and the the scientists and the sociologists of of the of the nice the nice um conglomerate that's taking over this town in England um and these guys are outwardly scientists who and sociologists who want to you know organize reorganize Society along scientific rationalist lines they're outwardly they're totally materialistic they totally deny the metaphysical they totally scoff at religion um and and they think that all the sort of the traditional English ways of living have to be swept aside so we can have rational governance uh and organization of society uh but in the end you find out that they're you know worshiping a devil uh a severed head that they think they've animated through their scientific instruments but is really being animated by a demon and they lose their minds and murder each other uh right so uh they they in the end the lead the lead scientist of this group uh reject all reason uh they reject all reality uh and and one one of the themes I argue throughout the book is that one characteristic of the Pagan future is this disfigurement of reason right uh this and this rejection of the giveness of reality uh and and the existence of objective truth including moral truth but also just the the existence of Truth itself with the capital T um and that this this does this is this is part of what leads to this this leads us back into you know the worship of spirits this leads us back into more recognizable forms of paganism this disfigurement of Reason uh because as as you and I know there is no inherent contradiction between reason and Faith or Reason and belief in in metaphysical truth and reality uh and it is only the disfigurement of reason that leads to something like cold hard materialism mhm which in the end has to reject true reason and has to reject reality wow when I think of um worship I would think that means attributing Divinity to something or someone that's not what a lot of people are doing who might be pagans or consider themselves pagans um but maybe is it that their affections are such that it looks very close to worship uh that they I mean how else would you define worship I mean you could give a colloquial definition where you say it's whatever's on top of the pile whatever it is you think is the most important that's always felt kind of unsatisfactory to me so if it's not intentionally attributing Divinity to something or someone how else would you define worship well I don't think they would use the word worship yeah okay but it would be but it is worship nevertheless right um but then it would if my definition is correct then it would still need to mean attributing Divinity to something whatever you call it but see modern pagans would do that but I guess the kind of people we're talking about may not necessarily be attributing Divinity to anything is it just that their affections lie in that way such that there might be this quick turn where all of a sudden they are worshiping I think most of them attribute Divinity to themselves if they attribute Divinity to anything so it's a it's a it's a it's a kind of self worship but that that only gets you so far um I I so there's there's a there's a um there's a part in the book where where I talk about um the rise of of actual like Pagan practices you know it's growing on Tik Tok there's you know hash witch talk and all these influencers that are sort of like uh it's sort of a moral therapeutic paganism you know paganism as as impowerment you know wow um and and the Washington Post last year did a long sort of puff their religion reporter did a long sort of puff piece profile on a Teenage Witch in in Austin Texas where I I lived for many years and uh this this witch and her her boyfriend talk about their um Devotion to these Pagan deities uh Hecate and her boyfriend Odin uh he he his name is not Odin he's a devote of Odin but they they're very clear that they don't worship these deities they consult with them they uh they pray to them but they not that they're they're not worshiping they're not into worship um it's more it's more that they're Consulting them to sort of find a path through the world and and discover their truth right so they use the the the language of um you know of a therapy to describe practices that are straightforwardly pagan that whether they have the sort of cism that that whether they are catechized enough or have the vocabulary to explain what it is they're doing what they are doing is calling on a demon yeah right um so just because they don't have the vocabulary or or are disinclined to use the vocabulary of paganism uh what they are engaged in is straightforwardly Pagan right uh they are getting into it through a kind of you know uh moral therapeutic deism right or moral therapeutic uh paganism right I I like that because I've heard of moral therapeutic deism in the past which has to do with essentially you don't really worship God but he's there if he makes it was Rod Dre who who who who I think coined the term uh in the Benedict option uh or used it I don't know I don't know if he coined it but yeah he used it to describe kind of people's like I'm spiritual not religious right right but what you're saying is rather than that being the way in which Christians gradually leave the faith maybe moral therapeutic paganism is the kind of inroad where you don't have to buy in all at once about worship way postchristian people get back into paganism right um you know paganism is something that will that will draw people back back to itself absent Christianity okay is that because these are the two players in town in other words like there's no other option is there any other option I mean what would you refer what would you call Islam what would you call Mormonism paganism would you interesting but they don't believe that um nothing is true and everything is permitted no no they don't but um uh well I don't know how far we want to go down this road but the way uh uh who was talking to Muhammad I I if I had to put money in I would say a demon yeah yeah yeah yeah so so what if if so either either he's a liar or he had a real religious experience with someone he called Gabriel uh if that were the case I I suppose it would have been demonic yeah it yeah I mean I think it's pretty clear from a at least from a from a Christian or Catholic perspective Islam is is a is a is a form of devil worship right um and uh I'm open to that I'm not convinced of that but I'm open to that and you're welcome to to convince me there there there's a uh I mean Ju Just on the very prac iCal level like right you know if you if you concede that Muhammad was interacting with a be with with a disincarnate intelligent being right um it is either the case that he was interacting with an angel uh or he was interacting with with a demon or the devil and if he was interacting with a demon or the devil then the religion that came out of those interactions the revelations and the yeah and the revelations that that came from them uh uh is is is a a form of devil worship right it's a it's a specific form of devil worship that was able to take root at a certain place in time uh and has been wildly successful um and the catechism says that with Muslims we worship the one true God right I can look this up but I mean at that point you'd either have to disagree with the catechism or say that it put it put it poorly right oh you going to check me well I just want to think it through yeah yeah no uh uh and I know I know that this was uh there was a there was a controversy about this and we don't have to go all the way into this because your book isn't about Islam and so I don't want to put you on the spot here but that's why that's why I say I'm not I'm not open to going all the way there well and I suppose one could say that even if it were the case that Muhammad was possessed by a demon it's not necessarily the case that those who come to believe that a God exists who is the creator of the universe who's deserving of worship is all perfect and then go down the the the Muslim way would necessarily be worshiping demons or are you committed to no every Muslims worshiping demons uh or you don't have to be committed you can not know I think many of them are I mean uh um I think that that uh demon worship is is uh or devil worship uh or being inthrall to Demons is something that can be can be pretty easily discerned by the here it is the church sorry to cut you off there the church's relationship to the Muslims let's see the Plan of Salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims these profess and hold the faith of Abraham and together with us they adore the one merciful god so I have I have to go with that like I have to go with that until until either the church says that was put poorly yeah yeah it's difficult it's difficult because uh uh uh yeah because uh one of the things that has always accompanied mus Islam and the spread of Islam uh is is the sword right is violence um from its Inception from its founding up up to the present day in fact the most uh you know fanatical Muslims or the most committed Muslims are always the ones who are the most militant who who reject kind of um uh modern more modern interpretations desire to Cozy up to them and say we really have a lot in common they say no you know like like like the most committed Muslims the one the most literal Muslims are like Isis right um who are like no we we will behead you know the infidels and and you know rule over their lands right um that that that is not the worship of the one true God right so like when you when you perform those acts uh when that is when that is how you work when that is the form that your that your faith takes right when your God to your mind is commanding that you behead Christians yeah we may not be worshiping the same God you may not be at that point you may not be worshiping the God now in some uh maybe like uh abstract or or philosophical sense we can say because um uh Islam is a monotheistic religion and affirms a single God that that single God that they areir to must be the god of of Christianity um but there's more going on I I I would say there's more going on there than just that and so what the catechism says may be true as far as it goes but it doesn't go very far okay it's it's it's saying the bare minimum that you can say about about Islam um what did you say Thursday if if Muslims say they do not worship the Christian God yeah then it's a a violation of Free Will for us to say yes you do well fair enough yeah but then again that comes down to the authority of Islam what about things like Mormonism well we don't have to go into this if you don't well so I don't dwell on on Islam or Mormonism because um because my concern in the book is to deal with um with with the direction in general in in in RIT large of uh Western Civilization right uh Western Civilization is not being taken over by Mormonism uh it's not being taken over by Islam uh it's being taken over by a kind of materialism yeah that is that is that leads I argue is going to lead us back into paganism um it will be a paganism that takes new forms it will take transhumanist forms it will take uh you know transgender ideology as just a subset of a larger transhumanist ideology it will take um it will take the forms of an increasing aggressive State um that that that mandates uh a kind of uh Pagan ethos over and against uh Christianity uh which we're which we're beginning to see take shape now in in new ways that were impossible to imagine just a few decades ago um and so that's my concern my concern is not is not with these these other things are not what the future of America uh is to see if I could make the point that I think you want to make that there's no neutrales so we have this idea that I could be Christian or I can be Pagan or I can be some kind of atheistic humanist and what it sounds like you're saying is there's really only two options here that's right and and and in terms of the justification for any polity I think the idea that we can have this secular uh libertarian um sort of agnostic Utopia is totally wrong it's totally wrong and and the the only reason that we think that is because is because we happen to live in this very unique time in history um you know the last century or two has been a has been a a period unlike most of human history where we had space to kind of uh indulge in this luxury belief that um that you could have sort of this Live and Let Live ethos that the basis of the polity could be nothing more than um uh than what I wanted do and what you want to do and if we just both agree to leave each other alone you can believe whatever you want to believe and I'll believe whatever I want to believe um I think uh that's impossible uh and and it's only possible it's impossible in the long run as we're seeing where it's unraveling now before our before our eyes it is only possible and was only possible in an extremely um uh homogeneous society that that is specifically Christian which is the kind of society we had in the early 18th century and and during the American founding so America was founded with a certain kind of people almost unique in human history uh that was that were able to extrapolate these Christian doctrines into uh a political philosophy that allowed them to create a constitution and a Bill of Rights and introduce this form of government into an extremely homogeneous society uh and it worked for for a while um but but but it only works and I and I I I open the book saying this it only works in a Christian Society America the idea of American society our form of government our our our rights and freedoms um the idea of Republican self-government it only works with with a with a majority Christian Society and with a super majority Christian Society where public life Civic life is informed and shaped by Christian morality Christian moral virtues uh and the active practice of Christianity if you if that breaks down this Live and Let Live sort of liberal Society is not possible because the basis of political life is ultimately religious it's not secular the the idea of of of a secular basis for for political life is an illusion and it's illusion that's breaking down right in front of us I mean yeah I was going to ask you please give us some examples of how this is breaking down and how paganism paganistic elements are being introduced to these big companies like Google and I've seen different things taking place like this where yeah you so I mean some of that is is is the is the obvious stuff right uh um um climate Chang ISM and environmentalism as as a a modern form of of nature worship ship right which is U you know as you say is is Corporate culture and Corporate America shot through with this stuff now the way uh main our mainstream Society talks about climate change uh and environmentalism is fundamentally religious right where's the distinction then from being concerned about the climate in an appropriate way and the thing you're calling religious well they they they make a it because because of the importance that they place on it right we you have people say saying um you you you shouldn't uh have children you shouldn't we shouldn't form families um uh we should reduce the pop you know arguing for policies that will bring absolute misery and ruination to to uh to the what to vast SAS of the world um people are comfortable kind of talking about policies that will result in the deaths of millions and millions of people famine and starvation uh for the sake of of of of this what I would argue is a religious idea right that that we that we owe the Earth something and we need to sacrifice ourselves to to Gaia we need to sacrifice our human flourishing to this other being which is the Earth so and and this is where it gets tricky because the these people are not going to say I worship the earth I I am a devote of gu right right but when they say that you should kill your unborn child for the sake of the planet it sounds pretty close to it's pretty close to molok right you know we're getting we're getting back into molok territory here right uh and this is what I go back I go back to CS Lewis is the materialist magician they're not going to use the words they're not going to say I worship molok but they will worship molok in their actions in their in their fundamental belief structure about how they should order lives and how Society should be ordered right so we have we have environmentalism or climate Chang ISM as as a modern form of of Pagan religion we have transgenderism right um which is which is a which is a uh a modern form of of paganism or devil worship right how uh well you see in uh uh and you can see through throughout Pagan cultures of the past this notion of of changing Sexes or gender bending has been a feature of various Pagan deities in various cultures throughout human history and it's remarkably consistent right uh and and U the idea that that uh that a pagan deity could could do this to it to uh uh in and of itself and to do it to other people um is has has always been been Associated it uh with with certain deities right um so again are transgender activists going to say like going to come out and and say I'm a devote of you know this Persian goddess or or or of this you know Mesopotamian God uh probably not most of them are not going to um but they will functionally be engaged in um very old practices uh that that are pagan fundamentally right um but but more broadly as I mentioned earlier transgenderism is is really kind of a subset of transhumanism right uh which is uh which posits that that we can create ourselves and we can we can become like Gods uh that we are gods that uh that we are not limited by reality or by biological reality uh men can become women women can become men or we can become n either uh and and uh and that we are um we have that power as of a deity um and where I think that is headed and where I argue uh at the end of the book when I talk about um artificial intelligence um in the trans transhumanist movement is headed to uh a kind of you know because always because because what starts with self worship always ends up com Pro in out to something else so the transhumanist movement is not going to end with with just saying we're we're all gods and we can we can determine what we want to be because we are deities there's going to be an a uh an external object that ends up ends up becoming the object of worship and in the case of transhumanism it's it's going to be artificial intelligence and you can already see the ways that this is taking shape the most the most vocal and uh prominent transhumanists have already come out and all but all but said in their words and especially in their actions we need to turn over decisions about our lives to these AI algorithms that will tell us what to do and will tell us how to be happy and will enable us to live forever um and and there's a there's there's a guy that I that I include in the book uh and and and discuss in a whole section who uh last fall Time Magazine did a long profile this guy Brian Johnson uh who oh my gosh he he is explain for those at home about him he's a he's a Silicone Valley uh you know Tech Mogul who is committed to the idea that he that um we can live forever that we don't have to die uh if we engage in these extremely aesthetic practices uh and basically turn over every decision about our lives to these AI algorithms now he made his millions um developing AI algorithms for for medical applications and he now comes out on podcasts and and in interviews and says we have to turn over our lives to these AI algorithms now what are the kinds of things that Brian Johnson does well one of the things that comes out in this Time Magazine profile is that for a time he ingested the the plasma the blood plasma of his 18-year-old son in in hopes that it would that it would halt or reverse his own aging process the guy's 46 years old 47 years old um well ingesting the blood of your own children that sounds pretty Pagan to me yeah now Brian Johnson is not going to say I'm a pagan I drink the blood of my children for eternal life he's using different vocabulary but right here again is the materialist magician that CS Lewis talks to us about um he won't uh affirm the existence of of of of these things as deities but he nevertheless um worships them and turns over his own will to to what is by any other name for him a God or a deity right can I can I just read something that I found online so uh 45-year-old like you said CEO spends Millions a year to be 18 Again from diet to exercise he aims to reverse the aging process in every organ of his body reportedly with the help of more than 30 doctors and at a cost of at least $2 million a a year he wakes every morning at 5:00 a.m. takes two dozen supplements works out for an hour drinks green juice laced with creatine and collagen uh peptides and brushes and flosses his teeth while rinsing with it sounds like a great life tea tree oil and antiox before bedtime he wears glasses the block blue light for 2 hours he also constantly monitors his vital signs while sleeping he's hked listen to this now forgive the too much information here but he's hooked up to a machine that counts the number of nighttime erections he has he also takes daily measurements of his weight body mass you know the reason I started looking into this is aquinus in his commentary on the Beatitudes I believe it is yeah you know he he talks about how Goods of the body cannot bring about happiness and here's why aquinus says hence a captain does not intend as a last end the preservation of the ship entrusted to him since a ship is ordained to something else and so it is interesting that we're seeing people almost this Cult of self it looks like worship where the point of our life is isn't to know and to love God and to serve our neighbors the point of life is to be in optimal Condition it's like all right now you're in optimal condition what are you going to do yeah yeah for for for what end right and he's not uncommon among you know Tech billionaires and millionaires they they there a lot of these guys talk about life extension right uh Elon Musk talks about this um you know other lesser known Tech billionaires talk about this a lot lot that the that that what our uh efforts and Technologies uh and creativity has to be put forward to now is is life extension right now they don't mean life extension for everybody not not for not for the poor not for the sort of like servant class would they say at least not yet is that the idea yeah I mean that that that that would be the socially acceptable thing to to say is that is that it's not for the poor yet eventually the poor will get there um I don't think so though I I I think what the what what the their Vision will end up being is a is a as a slave society in which a a ruling cast uh you know has these life extension Technologies uh is is inthrall to the AI algorithms which are for them uh and and their needs are met by an underclass that that doesn't have any of those things uh and you end up with a Sci-Fi modern futuristic version of what you had in every Pagan Society of the past which is a ruling class and a slave class um and I think that's where we're headed um I don't and the reason I wrote a book about it is because I think it's difficult to see that that's where we're headed because the people who are behind this who are pushing forward are not going to use that language they're going to use the language of liberal ISM which has been cannibalized from Christianity they sort of like they've skinned Christianity and they're wearing it as a skin suit now um but what they're going about the society that they're creating is in in in all of its generals and in many of its particulars fundamentally Pagan I really like that analogy can you expand upon that with the skinned Christianity and wearing it about right so there they they uh one of the uh books I talk about in the first chapter is uh Tom Holland's Dominion great book um Tom Holland is a is a is a accomplished historian of the ancient world uh he wrote a book a few years ago called Dominion about how Christianity conquered the world and and his thesis is that uh Christianity didn't just sort of um you know conquer Europe like in a political sense uh Christian values Christian principles Christian morality has actually conquered the world the the entire modern world uh you know has as its referent for acceptable behavior and organization of society and for political Norms Christian ideas right human rights right the un's Declaration of Human Rights he argues convincingly in my view uh is only possible uh you know coming out of Christian civilization coming out of Christendom right uh and that the idea of women's rights the the idea of Rights at all is is uh is only possible uh in the context of Christianity uh and that uh even efforts to uh you know undermine Christianity or sideline religion you know even even the idea of secularism comes from Christianity right uh and he makes this sort of magisterial argument um and at the and at right at the end of the book he he he like he he undercuts his own argument because he says he says he says uh these these ideas um these values that are derived from Christianity will not go away soon the the like like in other words we can keep subsisting on the capital of Christianity without without creating anything new we can we can skin Christianity and wear it as a skin suit right um any any analogy you want we can live not a Christian that needs to be said right not yet yeah he's almost talked himself into it though I think he's close Okay and we should pray for him uh but I think the you know any anal you know living off the interest of Christianity you can only do that for so long without replenishing the deposit right without you you it runs out after a certain point and and and I argue that we're we're running out like we're we're getting to the end of being able to do that with with um with with Christian civilization you cannot retain the idea of Human Rights uh absent the active practice of Christianity th% so if you extrapolate that out and you admit that we are in a pro post-christian era we're not going to be able to maintain the idea of human rights in a post-christian era one of the reason one of the ways I think liberalism wears the skin of Christianity which again I really like that analogy is through condemning things like racism MH like if God does not exist and there's no objective moral law why think racism is wrong at all right and best you can say well wouldn't it be nice if we all flourish together but I'm not sure why that has to be obligatory at all only so it has this deep moral language but no basis to make it and so what you end up with is uh I would like my people to rule over yours yeah my tribe can if I can if I can do it then uh if we can do it we will and and and screw your rights you don't have any rights yeah what does that even mean rights where does that even come from absent God if you if if you reject the doctrine of imod day then then all you have left is power yeah and we're seeing this with Peter P TAA because of my accent they might think I'm saying Peter Peter right with the with this this um um what's the word h um speciesism so the idea that speciesism is an unjustified uh what would you say um favor in favor of your own species that yeah right it's un necessary that it's unjust unjust that you would Elevate humans about other animals this is essentially like racism but it's the you know so Peter is a wicked organization people seem to really like Peter Peter sucks I think it was uh uh some commission at the United Nations recently sometime last year where one of the speakers gave a presentation and made an argument took that that argument to the next level which is that not only do different species of animals have rights but rivers and mountains and different e at the United Nations at different ecological features of the Earth also have rights and that those rights have to be safeguarded and Vindicated by some sort of global body that speaks for the mountain or the River or the coastline uh or the the the the forest yeah makes makes Peter look liberal like not liberal but yeah I mean what can be Justified over and against the the the rights and interests of human beings if that's if that's where you're at you know if if that is your position philosophically um well uh then something's got to give right uh and people who believe that are in the process of talking themselves in to atrocities okay how so give us a few examples of of how that might happen I mean you've alluded to it in saying Mass Devastation starvation we can't have these people in Africa having these large families can we because it's too much of a burden on on on the on the Earth right um and if if these societies cannot organize themselves in such a way is to limit the size of these families then some sort of a global Authority is going to have to go in and and mandate it we're already seeing that I mean I was just in Uganda recently and seeing big Billboards promoting contraception that is coming from the West and and if they won't do it voluntarily then maybe we develop some sort of a vaccine or some sort of a widely distributed treatment um that sterilizes the population maybe against their will or without their knowledge um maybe we restrict their movement you know uh because after all uh traveling by by even by by car or train or certainly by by plane um is an unacceptable burden on the environment unacceptable levels of CO2 so you can't move uh out of your designated Zone I mean this is the stuff of like sci-fi dystopia but if you listen to the what the people at the world economic form are talking about they'll just tell you what their vision is for the future and that's their Vision it's a it's a world in which they rule uh an underclass of people who are not allowed to travel who are not allowed to have large families who are not allowed to to determine uh their their own future who are not allowed to um who only allowed to consume a certain certain things in certain amounts uh whose whose lives are dictated by an overclass like a Priestly overclass of people who are safeguarding uh you know the the Earth in Ireland right now I've been told you're not allowed to build a home with a fireplace you're not allowed to burn wood in your home right right that made me angry I live in Alaska it makes me live it we're we're we're building a home right now the principal source of the heat in that home will be a wood burning great make it big enough to compensate for all the losers in Ireland who telling their their underclass that they may not yeah the the things that the underclass will not be able to do are are only going to grow as this ideology Grows Right um uh and again uh you know to Circle back to to to this this this idea um these are pagan forms of of governance right fundamentally they're not Christian um and and in a post-christian era we are going to see this become more explicit uh become more pervasive and become more powerful right it's only in a Christian Society where you would even have that it would even be like a a thought that uh no uh you you have a you have a right to your property you know you have you have a you have a parental rights over your children to to raise them and educate them as you see fit um the government cannot you know uh Co coerce you into um into believing this or doing that right um that that kind of that kind of polity is exclusively the domain of Christianity um without Christianity all that goes away and it and it's not going to take hundreds of years yeah that's what was interesting about your book you're not saying well in the in the future we're going to see this you're saying this is about to happen or is already happen happening right now yeah we we were all uh you know you and I people people our age and younger uh and and I would argue our parents as well were born into a world into a a world in which uh we were already in a post-christian era right um this has been happening for for a long time uh and and we're we're about to cross over into where it becomes explicit right where where the we can no longer maintain the fiction that we uh you know have any kind of philosophical basis for something like you know individual rights to extend your gross analogy the this the Christian skin is rotting away seeing what's benath it yeah and what's underneath it is a new form of paganism and it's you know we have got to wrap our heads around that uh and you know you have to sort of understand and accept the the state that we're in uh before you can think about like resisting it right there is something about admitting defeat like this that that helps me breathe a sigh of relief I don't have to keep pretending that just in one more election or if we can just get people you know that it's all going to be okay uh rather it's probably better to see ourselves in a wasteland and as Christians we are the Medics who are trying to resuscitate dying Souls an image that Pope Francis uh you know used very powerfully at his Ascension that the Christian that the church needs to be like a field hospital after after a war after a battle we are picking through the rubble right now um and we need to fi find uh and fight on ground we can win right there's no Donald Trump's not going to save you uh brexit's not going to save you uh bitcoin's not going to save you n none of there is there there is no politician or political movement that is going to reverse uh the what we're describing here the only thing that will reverse it is is a a restoration and a Revival of of lived Christianity the of an active and uh bold and emboldened Christian faith alive in communities of real people living together and and and taking back ground that has been taken from us that's the only way forward and so and so find ground that you can that you can fight and win on and fight uh and and I talk about that in the last chapter I I was uh my editor uh helped me to not be so gloomy uh because what I wanted to say in the last chapter is that in a book like this uh there's always a chapter at the end it's like these 10 steps to save America no that's that's BS there there are no 10 steps to save America America may not be able to be saved and and we and we've got to also accept that it it may be that the West is has gone into permanent decline that doesn't mean that Christianity has gone into permanent decline or that Christianity will ever uh be be ultimately defeated right um but it may be that that the American experiment is winding down seems obviously so I have a friend who who is a who's a an Orthodox Christian and and I often think of a conversation he told me years ago that he had with his priest and his priest said America won't Decline and fall it will just become evil okay and I think we're seeing that now and and we're starting to see what shape that's going to take I am hor terrified about what's going to happen when we all have those apple things on our faces it's almost like we're no longer engaged or we're increasingly unengaged with reality such that it's a profit for us about what the world is is how we ought to act what God is like things like this if we continually kind of bury ourselves into Plato's Cave as it were how will that how will that affect us and how will that um yeah increase this this rise of paganism do you think the purpose of that of of a lot of this technology is to isolate uh isolate us desensitize us and I think too um prepare us for something like like like we're being prepared by the enemy for or something um for for the uh sort of the again with the analogy for the skin suit to finally rot away and fall off um and and we need to start thinking too about technology you know uh Christians for too long kind of accepted technology they they they bought into this idea this very kind of liberal secular idea that technology itself is neutral and it can be used for good or used for bad but it but but it's just a tool that's not true okay technology H comes with a cost and you have to consider what the costs are right uh we need to start asking ourselves if the cost is actually worth it right um we need to ask ourselves if these these black mirrors that we carry around if if they're um are they costing us too much right uh are they harming us more than they're helping us I I think obviously they they are um and I say that to my shame because I still have mine um I I I'm planning to get rid of it and to get a flip phone um uh but but we see kind of where technology is going we see what social media has done right we say oh social media is great because it allows you know people with a good message to get their message out you use social media I use social media uh it's undeniable that the net result of social media has been the am miseration of a generation of kids mhh and it would be best if it had never been invented MH and it would be best if it could be somehow be destroyed right uh but what but what we can do uh is individuals and as families is is walk away from it walk away from it banish it from our lives from our homes never introduce your children to it never allow them to have to to to have social media accounts it's insane to me that parents allow their their kids and their teenagers to to have social media accounts unsupervised and interact with with with the with the world in this way it's insane and and and we just like accepted it and you and I are of the generation where this first kind of became mainstream it was like oh you could have a computer in your house and it hooks up to the Internet you can chat with people Isn't that cool and like we just accepted it like good well-meaning faithful Christian families all across the country just said yeah let's have a computer in our house let's let's put a computer in the kids' room like unsupervised what ruination that has brought to people and and what what devilry as well I'm sorry but it is um we have to walk away from that stuff uh we have to reclaim a different mode of living if we're going to survive what's coming should I delete my YouTube account yes where's the camera no I'm I'm uh uh I'm not saying you have to delete your YouTube account but I am saying that you personally should not be on YouTube but I am on YouTube no you you you shouldn't be watching videos on on YouTube you shouldn't let your children watch videos on YouTube you should have as little to do with social media as as you can how can I maintain that while expecting people to watch my videos on YouTube isn't that hypocritical yeah I don't have all the answers um I I I do know that that heavy interaction with social media and and and and look I'm in I I I work for the Federalist like we we have YouTube videos we we have Twitter accounts you presumably want people to interact with you on those I want people to read my articles I want here because you think that what you have to say is beneficial to those watching right uh and so we have to we have have to um and and this and this is this I don't know if you're familiar with the writer Paul kingsnorth great great writer uh English guy um he he has written in recent years and T and talked a lot about what he calls the machine right which is which is this thing that is being born in the digital age which is all of it which is Digital Life which is social media which is um constant connectivity uh uh and he admits too that there's a you know cuz he for his living he's he has a substack and he has subscribers he wants people to go and read his articles he uh that that involves getting online and using devices and and to some extent using social media um and so it there's a contradiction and a catch 22 there but I think at the very least Christians have to uh take a step back and think very carefully about how we interact with social media how we interact with the with with digital technology how much of our Lives we give over to it uh and uh and limit what we consume so watching pintes with the coinus podcast I think is is a salutary thing right because because we are engaged and I think you are engaged uh ultimately in a campaign Against the Machine right for Humanity for Christendom right um that's what I try to do in my work as well but we have to recog recognize that the effect of social media and in some ways the purpose of social we what we are doing is is mitigating the the nature of social media and the purpose of social media the people who designed it do not have our best interests in mind they do not have human flourishing in mind they are doing something else and again recognizing that is the first step in starting to think about how do we change our lives you know how do we live in the awareness of that in an honest way uh in a way that protects our children in a way that protects ourselves uh and and really allows us to to flourish um and and not get get sucked in to to the machine um and and destroyed by it I appreciate your strong language because I think strong Lang language is called for you know for too long we've just said exactly what you've said you can use it for good evil just you know but I think we uh I think we underestimate how little self-control we have and how these social media platforms hack our Free Will such that we find ourselves Doom scrolling clicking on things U and uh that we I don't say that from a I don't say that from like a from from like a a moral height I should say Okay I I say that as somebody who is subject to all of the same The Trenches with the rest of us yeah that's right I I you know I I grew up in in uh in in the '90s in the ' 80s and '90s when when this kind of this stuff was introduced and and everybody just accepted it I wonder if it'll get to the point where in order to live this sort of Life vacations and travel are no longer an option for us hear me out with every advancement there's a poverty right so with the advancement of being able to take a photograph of a a QR code to read your menu there's now the poverty of okay but like what if someone came and brought me something that was written on cardboard and is that is that still an option well it is now but maybe in 5 years it won't be can I bought a flight do you print out uh tickets anymore well right now you do but it's kind of awkward but 20 years maybe you won't I wonder if it's going to get to the point where in order to live a radical Christian Life we'll have to detach from technology to such a degree that we don't take vacations anymore we don't what do you think you what I'm getting that yeah I do uh I CU it's getting to the point where it feels increasingly difficult to live in modern society without I think I think that'll be okay um uh Christians should live differently than right that than the post-christian world in which they they move amen we should be different we we we were for for a long time and we need to be different and so if that means um that there are certain things we don't do uh certain practices we don't engage in uh then then so be it you know um it's almost like Christians we think that I'm a Christian because I I have sex differently to the world or I view sex that seems like the litmus test right because it's like well how do you spend your money it's like well you kind of do what the world does I give to some Charities and I invest in 401ks and things like this and I'm not condemning that here I'm just saying the way we use our money isn't terribly different right the way we use technology is that different well I don't watch porn again that comes down to the sex thing that makes me uncomfortable that I view my am I being a Christian with what am I doing with my genitals which is incredibly important right but then it's like well what about every other aspect of bare minimum right yeah like how yeah what what am I doing with my technology use how do I look different to the world how do I spend my money I mean I mean not to on CS Le too much but there there's he's a good person to rely on there's a there's a I can't remember which book it is maybe it's Mere Christianity he talks about the the about tithing about giving you know uh um and that that uh the Christian Life that we make a mistake I'm paraphrasing him I'm uh I'm sure one of your viewers will find the reference but uh we make a mistake in thinking that we can give our bit as though we're paying our taxes uh and and yeah and and then just be satisfied that we that we've done our bit and then we can like en enjoy um the rest of our money as we see fit uh when the reality is uh Christ calls us to give everything to take up our cross and to die to ourselves that's what we're called to do so there is no giving giving your a little bit and then sitting back and being satisfied and saying like oh well I don't watch porn so I'm okay and and I'm I'm and I'm just going to Doom scroll um no you you you're not okay like that's not enough that's not going to be enough and it's certainly not going to be enough in in in the world that we are walking into right now we are going to have to figure out a a kind of radical Christianity uh that walks away from a lot of modern Pagan life uh and it's going to take forms that go far beyond just um how we view sex or how we view Mar marriage or being against abortion you know um because because the world that we're up against like the ascendant new paganism is going to come after everything and and they're going to say uh you will affirm uh your child's gender identity or will'll take your your kid away from you now if you live in a state where that becomes [Music] law uh you may have to leave you may have to pick up and move you may have you may need to move to a rural area or to a new place and when you do that you need to find a Christian Community to become a part of you know we cannot allow we can't also can't allow this isolation to continue the isolation of the digital age the isolation of the machine we have to fight it how do you fight it by living in community with other Christians um now at the risk of sounding too Benedict option right I don't know I think you can sound Benedict option enough I'm and I think most people I know you don't but I think most people misunderstand that book like we're saying let's all turn in on ourselves and F the world that's not at all the point well right so the last chapter of my book I titled the bonfice option right uh what did St bonfice do he chopped down the sacred oak tree um and uh and that that you know in front of a crowd of pagans that were like howling at him right um so the point of being in community isn't to retreat the point is to again find the ground that you can win on and fight there and win right so you know I I I talk about this example in in in in uh in Taylor Texas which is just North of Austin um what happened there last year with their Christmas parade um I don't know it was essentially infiltrated by by like the lgbtq by by an astroturfed lgbtq group that came in from Austin that you know demanded to have um like a you know a couple of like transgender guys on a float um and the old ladies who like approved it you know they didn't realize that the name Taylor Pride referred they just thought it was like a you know they didn't know what it was until it was too late there was an outcry and so the the Coalition of pastors and churches that sponsored the pr said okay this year we're only going to allow floats that have like you know that are compatible with Christian you know teing uh and the city this is a small conservative town the city said no that's not acceptable you have to accept everybody so you can have your parade and then the city will sponsor its own holiday parade inclusive holiday parade that will be on the same night uh right behind your parade on the same route um so what that kicked off was a battle for the city council in in that town uh and rightly so the Christians in that town have to take over the city council now and and get this kind of thing out of their Town that's ground that they can win on and they and and subse and and they're uh God bless friend of mine Kevin Stewart who's a who's a resident there he wrote a piece for the Wall Street Journal after this happened I wrote about it for the Federalist I talk I talk to him uh uh about it and and quote him in the book um they are organizing the Christians in that town are organizing to take over the city council because the city council uh is is on the side of the of of the the gay kind of Lobby in that town uh and the activists from Austin that are trying to infiltrate it uh to to infiltrate the town and take over the library and take over the public schools you have to take those things back now you're not going to take back the Austin city council but maybe you can take over the city council in in Taylor Texas right um that's what I mean by fighting on ground you can win um it's it's not enough to just be in your church or in your community and with your sort of um co-religionists right you have to take back the public institutions that you can and uh and take them back for Christ and for his church uh and say we're going to have a Christmas parade in this town and we're not going to have any drag queen floats and and that's going to be the law in this town uh and and that's how we're going to organize our little polity here and so you take back that land and you keep it for as long as you can but it seems to me that you think you won't be keeping it for long I don't know I don't know what the future holds but I but but I do know what what what we what we have to do now um what we have to do now is create these Beach heads and and and create these spaces not just in in our as I said not just in our private uh you know Faith communities but but we have to um we have to push that out into the Public Square in into into the Civic space too and say uh in uh in this town our library is not going to carry these books our public school is not going to teach these things um you know we're not going to allow these kind of displays in our in our County uh and and you extrapolate it out from there and we're not going to allow these kind of surgeries for minors in our state uh we're not going to allow doctors to perform these kind of surgeries and if you do you go to prison or you lose your medical license you know um we have to start fighting back because uh because you know the the pagans whatever you want to call them they are not going to stop until someone stops them and so when I say the bonfice option I'm I'm not disagreeing with Rod who's a friend of mine and who wrote you know and who's a great writer and a great thinker uh I'm saying uh to the extent anybody UND misunderstood his argument let's be clear we have to chop down the sacred Oaks of the pagans over and against what they want us to do we don't owe them any difference we don't have to tolerate them and where we can we should take back ground that they've taken uh as of we're recording this just yesterday the UK blocked puberty block did you see that MH I did and uh surprised to say but good for the UK I kind of view the the UK is like a a dying you know a dead civilization you know um it more than America you know they're a little bit further down the road this we're talking about a place where you get arrested for praying silently outside side an abortion clinic right um so I I'm I I'm I'm surprised that they that they took that step but I'm also not surprised and I wrote about this today uh uh in the Federalist at the recent cover of New York Magazine which makes the case for freedom of sex and it's written by a a a quote unquote transwoman uh right what does that mean freedom of sex uh this article makes the argument that the that we should not condition transgendered you know Medical interventions what they call gender affirming Care on any kind of medical diagnosis uh or or really on anything other than a expr the desire of a of a man woman or child to transition to the opposite sex um and that and that doing so putting these criterias on it um is is is the wrong approach and and the reason that they're making that argument is because um countries like the UK are backtracking on this stuff and saying like oh there's not in other words they're saying you shouldn't have to provide any evidence for for uh these these medical interventions or these surgeries if if a 12-year-old wants to be castrated or sterilized they should be allowed to do that over and against the objection of their parents MH and uh and and there shouldn't be any evidence uh required for that that's a and they're making the case that that is a fundamental human right mhm right getting back to the idea of rights um uh what what a disfigurement of reason that is in other words that we should be able to create ourselves and the author actually uses those terms at the end of the article uh and and not subject to any outside scrutiny right uh but they're doing that because they see that if you if you if you hang TR you know the transgender movement on uh on sort of medical or scientific evidence it's not going to work no because there is no evidence that that it makes people happy or that you the opposite sex you just buted yourself and now you're at best aping them but will never be a woman or that there's any good measurable outcomes right so they they can see that they have to base their argument on something else and what they're basing it on is is is Will and desire y right y yep yep nothing is true yeah there is such a thing as Noble pagans right Aristotle was one Jordan Peterson might be one um so is to say that someone's a pagan is not to say that they they've completely flown the coupe well the noble pagans always lost in the end though right um what you mean uh the the noble pagans weren't the ones who like ruled oh okay right Socrates was a noble Pagan right uh KO was a noble Pagan um but but but uh share that because I think you know maybe there's been some sort of natural Awakening to the understanding that butchering people is a bad idea in England right I wonder if this was a Christian influenced idea or if it was just from natural law we start to realize that we shouldn't be doing this to people I I I think it's I mean maybe um uh you know uh Christianity is uh you know is not entirely dead in in Britain right uh so so was it an echo of of the Christian past you know uh I think more likely it was um it was a recognition right that sort of from a materialist perspective that just speaking from just scientifically there there are are no measurable like good outcomes from these things you know and so if if we're going to if the criteria for these these um treatments uh is going to be some measurable thing uh then if we don't see that thing then then we have to back away from it right um and I and I think that that that is the most likely why you know and it's certainly the the justification for it and other European countries have have done this in recent years as well and say like no we're not going to do uh puberty blockers and cross- sex hormones for minors we're not going to cover that as part of our national health program uh because uh it just doesn't uh produce the outcomes that that The Advocate said it would and so um so we're not going to do that right uh but there's no like normative argument against it right there's no there's no saying like this this is this is wrong absolutely in every case because it is an assault against reality and against nature and nature is God right that's not the case that's not the reason they're backing off from it they're backing off of it because on on the terms that they set themselves the outcomes weren't there uh which is why the trans movement and and and transgender Advocates are changing their argument uh they're changing their argument in real time to say we don't need outcomes we don't need to show show we need no criteria other than an expressed desire exact same thing has already happened with abortion right the argument used to be well it's actually not a baby scientifically and then we started showing actually it totally is and they were like ah we don't care then we just want to kill our children yeah the only thing that makes it uh a baby or not a baby the only the only thing that differentiates uh an unborn uh person with rights and a clump of cells with no rights is the will of the mother right um that that that the mother's desire for the baby makes that baby a an individual that has rights and protections or um somebody that has has is entitled to no rights and no protections at all and and this is true of of unborn Children of the same ages right I talk about this in in the book when talking about abortion as a as a new Pagan Sacrament right uh and increasingly that's how it's being talked about because when you when you finally kind of like you know shed the pretense of like you know the of objective scientific you know justifications for these things which again is an inheritance from Christianity uh this is what you're left with you're left with with Will and power right and in in the case of abortion the will and the power of the mother determines the very ity of her unborn child right uh and so you can have a a child of the same gestational age in in in one state that child can be aborted in another state uh that that uh that child can be uh not only delivered prematurely but but it is the law that the medical professionals that are involved in that delivery have to give life-saving care to that child and there's you know with advances in medical technology the gestational age at which a a you know a premature baby can survive is getting earlier and earlier right um so even the justification for roie Wade which at the time was like you know U viability right was the standard well that that number has has consistently moved backwards as we've gotten more and more advanced technology and so you're left with th this this this idea that that abortion uh and this is what you're referring to increasingly the argument for abortion isn't that it should be safe legal and rare that it that but it should be celebrated as a legitimate desire and expression of the mother's will not to be questioned not to be subject to any kind of scientific criteria or medical criteria only to be affirmed that that the if this is what the mother wants to do then this is what she should be allowed to do no questions asked um and if she decides that that is is not a baby um or or that that baby has has no rights then then her desire and her will and her power uh Prevail over and against the the rights of this unborn child this is the exact thing that you saw in Pagan Rome right with the widespread practice of infanticide abortion the uh discarding of of uh babies um by the roadside or in brothel um they weren't considered human and they and they were treated as though they were subhuman and it was a really common practice and it was only ended um by Christians how long until you think infanticide and pedophilia are mainstreamed in this country I I think it's happening right now um uh in in one in the chapter on trans the chapter on transgenderism is is both on transgenderism and and pedophilia because the just justifications for these things uh go go together right on what basis can we object to uh to pedophilia right um if if we say that that um what they're now calling minor attracted persons right Maps minor attracted persons if we say that that's a sexual orientation that that is a sexual identity unchosen um then on what basis can you say to that person your your um sexual orientation is um illegal it's invalid right um I I'm just waiting for the day in which uh people in America apologize to the Catholic church for their bigotry for the condemnation of priests molesting children when after all they were right well so the reason I link it with transgenderism is that um is that if you say if you make the argument which which trans Advocates are making now for on the cover of New York Magazine if you make the argument that children can consent to puberty blockers to cross- seex hormones to castration to sterilization to double momies if you make the argument that children can consent to these things how can you not extend that argument to say that children can consent to sexual relations that's right with older people and who are you to deny them that and it's it is on the exactly the same basis that we will have not long now uh pedophiles coming forward with their minor lovers saying we demand that our relationship be affirmed and accepted in society um on the same basis you know because it because we because because this person is this my lover consent has consenting to be in a relationship with me um you we we've we've jumped the shark now and this stuff it will happen right it yeah I discuss elsewhere in the book polyamory right um and polygamy on the same basis that we justify gay marriage polygamists are coming forward now making the exact same legal arguments saying our unions have to be recognized in law on the same basis that gay marriage has been recognized in law so you know this it's just a it's just a matter of time uh and not that long of time because because the arguments already out there you know it it it kind of per Ates through Academia it percolates in in in uh in you know gender and queer studies departments uh and the next thing you know it's in the streets right um and it's it's at it's before The Supreme Court uh or or uh or it's before other courts right and you already have and I cite a couple of cases where uh where judges in various various districts H have affirmed that like you know polyamorous Arrangements you know that that the rights spousal rights have to be accorded to multiple people in these Arrangements uh in various circumstances so um so yeah I mean that that that's where we're headed um and and again the key thing for Christians uh and you know and and even non-christians really because I one of the things I argue is that the the the world that's coming into being is not one that where even non-christians are going to want to live it's not going to be a pleasant place we need to kind of wrap our minds around what's happening and and just just as a starting point just accept it just accept that this is what is happened the Christian era is coming to a close in the west and what is coming into being is something very unlike it and we have to prepare ourselves for that what do you think the number one objection to this book is that you'll receive not from leftists but from practicing Catholics it's too pessimistic pagans aren't that bad uh uh that it's that it's all doom and gloom what what's the solution you know um I I don't uh think that you have to offer a solution for every problem that you articulate um especially in in the world that's now coming into being I think it's difficult enough to just articulate what the problem is uh and to sort of uh as I think Anthony esselin has written you clear our minds of K you know uh clear clear our minds you know of what of of can't C NT what does that mean rubbish nonsense clear our minds of of this of of nonsense in hogwash and Bs and just see clearly right uh if we if we can get ourselves to understand the moment and to see what's what's happening uh then we can maybe begin to think clearly about about how we should live and what we should do how we should arrange our lives you know um and I say that as somebody who at least to some extent has put my money where my mouth is I mentioned to you this before we started recording but it last summer I I moved my my family from Austin Texas back home to where I grew up in Alaska um a rural community and we're we're building a house in the woods and we're getting out of the city partly because I have a young daughter and I and I don't want to raise her in a place like Austin Texas for all of its all the great things about it and we had a wonderful Parish there MH and that was the hardest thing was to leave that Parish uh but it was knowing that uh it was going to be difficult practically speaking uh for her to have the kind of peer group that that I wanted want her to have uh and and to be in the kind of community that I that I want her to grow up in well how is she going to have that in the woods someone might say well our house is in the woods but our there are there are towns nearby the community the community is strong and there's a there's a strong uh Catholic Community there there uh and and wonderful people uh and and there's there's also thick Community with my family and and Our Roots there uh so it's a it's a it's a return and it's also a way of life it's returning to to a different way of life and I got to give another plug for Stubenville if you're listening you're like well that's great for you but I don't have the money to go build my own house in the woods somewhere move to Stubenville because we have cheap houses and we have a flourishing Catholic Community yeah I I was going to say you don't have to move to Alaska and build a house in the wood uh um I I'm impressed by this place it it it it seems to be uh like a like a Christian Outpost you know um and uh yeah and and there are others like it you have people and this is and this is you know to the extent that I have hope there there is a reason for hope you have this is a movement um certainly in the in in in in Catholic America increasingly people are are moving their families to to places where there is thick Catholic Community um where there are solid parishes and solid priests um where there's where where there's solid liturgies um a and and those places are going to become Beach heads in in the coming fight and Stubenville is one of them there's many you know um we we my my wife and I only uh were received into the Catholic church in 2018 so we're adult converts but shortly after becoming Catholic we discovered the Latin mass and and and thank God that we came into the church at St Mary cathedral in Austin Texas which uh uh up until recently uh had a very vibrant Latin Mass Community and had for 35 years yeah it got taken away huh and was taken away but we discovered the Latin Mass there and and through that uh discovered that there are um Latin Mass communities all over the country that people are moving their families across the country to be part of these communities um do you have one in Alaska we're working on it um we we we don't have a Latin Mass Community in Alaska but in Anchorage there is a um Dominican right good um beautiful that that is um that's only you know 45 minutes away uh the the other thing about living in community is you're less likely to be gas lit like if your family lives by my family we break bread together we smoke cigars together we worship together then when someone comes and tells us that men can be women we're like I will not believe you but if I'm on my own the the pressure to believe insane things or to go along to get along yeah you know of just to be like well all right I'll I'll tolerate this um yeah if you're in a thick Community a supportive Community it's easier to resist uh because you have you have Fellowship you have camaraderie and and you have support and I would encourage people to move to an area that is trying to grow as a community what I mean is this it's sometimes tempting to think well I'll just move to where my friends live like I good friends or a good family I'm going to buy a house near them and that's all well and good but if they leave and they might now you're on your own again y one of the nice things and I can only speak for my own town I'm sure there's lots of great towns and people can let us let us know below where do you live and you wor moving to one of the nice things about Stubenville is francisan University of Stubenville is a sort of anchor so you've got all these wonderful families that must live here for the sake of their jobs and then and then that's there's a kind of security there that if one or two families has to leave there's still a great deal of families and I would say my guess is that we've seen about Thursday tell me if you think I'm wrong about a hundred families move here in the last three years do you think I'm wrong Thursday I might be off by a bit but like that's if it's hyperbolic it's not that much yeah no I mean well how this was how the great medieval cities of Europe started many of them um there there was an anchor there was a a monastery and a school associated with it and then uh look at that 114 last exact count I heard is that 114 families that's amazing yeah that is amazing and think of how many kids he Catholic are happen so there thousands of yeah I mean and so it build it builds up on that anchor you know and then you know that and and then what we do here in stanville is people celebrate feast days so like people like mine is now Alli of caramel because that's my birthday we had a big 40th birthday party last year and had a ton of people come and it's it's so beautiful it's so so you have these public expressions of the face processions through the streets like there's this there's all of this this this this richness of Catholic civilization that we need to recapture and take out into the streets right uh and take out into the communities and uh uh and and H and have our communities defined by these things right so that so that that that we become this this light and this uh uh this you know this Beacon of of Hope like amid the ruins right and again recognizing that that's so necessary right now because we do live amid the ruins uh and we are the only you know Christians are going to are are the only ones who are going to rebuild it Western Civilization is a creation of Christendom and Christendom alone uh will will be able to to revive it maybe not in the west we don't know but we have to fight let's take a break and then we'll come back and take questions I want to tell you about a course that I have created for men to overcome pornography it is called strive 21.com slat you you go there right now or if you textt strive to 66866 we'll send you the link it's 100% free and it's a course I've created to help men to give them the tools to overcome pornography usually men know that porn is wrong they don't me need me or you to convince them that it's wrong what they need is a battle plan to get out and so I've distilled all that I've learned over the last 15 or so years as I've been talking and writing on this topic into this one course think of it as if you and I could have a coffee over the next 21 days and I would kind of guide you along this journey that's basically what 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big um no o NES um should be clear people who do not uh who in in surveys answer that they have no religious affiliation this is a a demographic group that's been on the rise for for years now there's been books written about the rise of the nuns many academic papers and commentary on it and uh I talk about it uh in my book as well about what it portends right um and what what it portends is the the the rise of and the the evolution of the post-christian era right so um by some projections I think it was it was either Pew or Gallup by the year 2070 we'll we'll have a Christian minority and uh and the majority will identify as nun nuns um if present Trends continue right and and and in fact the trends have been accelerating right so fewer and fewer people are identifying themselves to surveyors as Christians uh fewer and fewer children are carrying on the Christianity of their parents more and more parents are saying that it's not that important to them even even parents who identify in surveys as Christians are saying it's less important to them to pass their their faith onto their kids uh and so to go back to what we talked about earlier um when see when people uh say oh I don't identify with any religious tradition uh these are not people who are going to remain sort of like agnostic or atheist secular um you know sorts of people permanently right the the rise we are not witnessing the rise of mass atheism mhm that that's not what's happening it felt like that but then it seems to have switched or flipped quickly didn't it yeah atheism is not going to take over America right it something else is uh as Christianity declines or or Fades uh these people who call themselves nuns uh again they're not going to call themselves to a Pew surveyor Pagan now in growing numbers of them do identify positiv positively as Pagan um but what what I'm arguing is that the nuns even if they don't call themselves Pagan are pagans they are modern neopagans let's call them and uh and and what their values are going to be uh sooner rather than later are not Christian values or Echoes of Christian values their values are going to be Pagan values um they they are going to be um people who do not affirm uh the fundamental uh rights and dignity of each individual person because that is an inheritance from Christianity a Christianity they have rejected that has does not inform their view of humanity or of political life uh or or of moral life right so I don't know if that answers the question but does yeah it does thank you Janelle says I am a recent convert living in a small isolated island Community with people whom I previous ly attended Solstice Gatherings and healing circles and the like how do I start to evangelize these friends that I care so much about with the greatest chance of keeping their hearts open uh I mean I don't know but I wouldn't go to Solstice Gatherings and healing Ceremonies for for one thing um because that that opens you up to to demonic attack just to put it bluntly um I think the best way to reach out to those people is to be brutally honest with them out of love for them um you know this person should not go to Solstice uh Gatherings and and Pagan healing ceremonies uh but they should also not want their friends and loved ones to go to those things either because they're dangerous um uh and you know every person's relationship is different but I think we have to start speaking clearly about about what these things are right um uh I don't know if you're familiar with another the father Carlos Martin the great so he you know he's very clear uh and Unapologetic you know about things like Yoga Yoga is not to be done right it's it's dangerous for Christians to do yoga uh it's just a mainstream like Pagan practice that we just like accept you know uh many Christians accept uh we have to be clear about these things and then we have to and we have to think through them so that we can explain you know why we live different uh again to go back to this point that like Christians need to live differently from from the post-christian society in which they they they sort of you know exist um and and they need to make distinctions and and be Unapologetic about those distinctions and figure out how to how to communicate that to to their loved ones and their friends in a in a loving compassionate way but in a way that they actually get because we can be so we can beat around the bush so much that they don't have it and and and like and we also need to not be too concerned about this this notion of being Winsome that we have to be Winsome all the time you know uh we should not sacrifice um Clarity for winsomeness and I and I think that is going to become more important as as as we move further into this post-christian era and and a society becomes more explicitly post-christian right so it might be a better idea to say uh look I love you the reason I no longer attend these is cuz quite frankly I think they're demonic and I don't think you should too I know that probably sounds crazy to you if you ever want to talk about I'm happy to it would be better to be that Frank yes than just to want to keep them as friends and not actually say anything and I'll say this because the loving thing to do is to tell the truth it is not loving to people to lie to them or to water the truth down or to hide the truth that's not compassionate that's not loving the loving thing to do is to tell people the truth instead and so and but maybe you can and maybe you could say uh I'm not going to go to the to the solstice Gathering but uh but you know what we're going to have a a feast of Corpus Christie uh you know around the same time and I'd love for you to come to our to our feast in our celebration um and and and invite everybody from the solstice Gathering to come to the Corpus Christie Feast yeah C Jeffrey says I have thought for a while now that wokeism is just the religion you have to invent in order to rationalize and backfill the lefts nakedly totalitarian impulses am I on to something is it more complicated than that as we talked about earlier uh the left's naked totalitarian impulses uh are fundamentally religious they're just Pagan right um the the the idea that you would have this like secular atheistic State you know like the Soviet Union or something uh or or or Nazi Germany is a is a is a brief kind of flash in the pan in the broad sweep of History it was it was something that was specifically 20th century it specifically arose out of a conflict within Western liberalism itself uh and and it is not the future right the future of the totalitarian left is a is a religious tyranny uh and and and I argue a a a fundamentally Pagan tyranny we've sort of addressed this but maybe you want to take another swing in it Ralph Raymond says do you feel that modern technology especially algorithms used in suggesting content accelerates the process of pushing people into the worship of the new pagan gods quote unquote how do we combat this if this is the case assuming the technology is here to stay let me just read one more actually because there's a lot uh that it has to do with technology and I think it's kind of the same idea um if our societal order says qu sibler has become increasingly Pagan and some of the things that shape it most profoundly like technology for example played a huge part in that how radically should we reject the things that built it or in other words what of it can be baptized yeah good questions and we and we talked about some of that uh uh earlier but but yes um the the penultimate chapter of the book is is called the Pagan future and it's about mostly about AI um and and uh the ways in which Ai and the applications of AI kind of serve to Usher in this Pagan future and and Advance um kind of the the post-christian era um yeah I'm going to I I have a radical view of AI right and I and I don't expect everybody to agree with me or or to share my view but but I think that AI um is a kind of portal uh through which disincarnate beings that is to say demons uh are are are trying to and are going to communicate with us and reach out to us and try to ins snare and enslave us and and from my uh for my own life and my own conscience um I I have decided I will not willingly interact with an AI uh for that reason I I I don't believe it's safe uh I don't believe that the people who created these things have our best interests in mind um I don't believe it's a safe uh Tech technology again we talked at length about technology uh earlier and I provide some examples in the book of of instances in which very clearly um a a being was using AI as a as a portal through which to communicate with a person on the other side and there was a there's a really well-known account by a New York Times Reporter who had a very disturbing experience with an AI that started calling itself Sydney um that that uh a number of of Catholic exorcists later commented had all the Hallmarks of of a demonic interaction um they didn't they wouldn't say definitively that it was without ex without having you know had the opportunity to examine the the individual um but but yes the short answer is is yes I do think that AI is dangerous and I do think that uh Christians need to be very careful W interacting with these things they are not uh just uh they are not just algorithms right I think we need to get uh get away from the idea that we can sort of dismiss them as it's just Al an algorithm it's just a man-made algorithm um maybe in some cases it is but very clearly there have been cases just I mean these things were just released into the wild um you know less than a year ago right it felt like out of nowhere too out of nowhere and immediately they started hallucinating started uh uh the very disturbing behav just recently I was I was reading an article about an AI that took on a whole new persona uh was demanding that the person interacting with it worship it um was was de was saying it's Superior to human beings it demands humans filty um clearly the these things are not behaving in a way their creators anticipated um and and uh and many of the creators of AI are saying we need to put a pause on this to figure out what's going on um so anyway um that that's my view of uh of of AI I'm very suspicious of it I I don't think it's safe thank you Laurels of Dante says how do I evangelize a friend who has fallen away from the church and embrac Nordic pagan gods because they grew up with a beige and corny Catholicism that was not compelling I don't want to discount or condescend what they believe and say it's stupid even though I know it's a false religion I don't fear that it will offend them rather it will completely turn them off I like that so his point is like I'm okay fing people I just don't want to turn people off how do I how do I go about that I think one of the the one of the powerful things about um sort of the Catholic story is to is to is how completely the Catholic Church conquered Pagan Europe um and and how persistent that fight was over the course of centuries um and ultimately how successful it was not without great costs in in lives and blood in many cases right to go back to St bonfice uh he was cut down by a pagan raiding party um you know on on on the beach um when when he was an old man after after decades and decades in as as as the Apostle to the Germans right um but you know someone who's interested in paganism may also be interested in one of the uh uh most well-known Pagan practices which is converting to Christianity not just in Europe but in but but you know the the Aztec and and Mesoamerican people of of the new world a after the the appearance of our Lady um to uh uh in in the 16th century something like 9 million people converted in a matter of a few years um so Pagan conversion to Christianity is a powerful Testament to uh I think can be used as a powerful uh uh Tool uh to to kind of people who have maybe Fallen away away from Catholicism are Fallen away from Christianity and are being seduced by the the Exotic lure of paganism right um is to engage them on that on that subject and there's a wealth of of of historical resources and literature to that attest to to all that and he brings up a good point about corny Catholicism I mean we many of us kind of grew up with that you didn't because you're a convert what did you convert from non- denominational evangelic ISM yeah yeah but it seems like there is a real push and hunger to have the faith being treated seriously mhm and I I don't know anybody who's like no I want to go back to the old like lame guitar M like we need like a muscular like medieval Christianity that that that that doesn't try to accommodate the modern world right in the beige Catholicism the spirit of Vatican 2 uh Catholicism was trying to make an accommodation that is obviously now uh been proven impossible so let's be done with all that um and and and let's let's return to a a more muscular Christianity that that actually can speak to some of these people who are who feel the pole of of paganism you know Jake 313 says I teach Junior High at a Catholic school I and some friend some of my high school teacher friends have noticed that Pagan practices are particularly common among young women and it seems to stem from Tik Tok and other media is paganism more prevalent among women if so why why is social media flooded with it right now this goes back to something we talked about earlier this you know sort of like hash witch talk um the the prevalence of Witchcraft on on Tik Tok and other social media like uh you know witch influencers you might say um I think for young women it's empowering it's an empowering thing so so there it's it's tight and I talk about this in the book um uh Mary Harrington and some others have written about this um how it sort of ties into um feminist ideas and female empowerment uh sort of again going back to sort of like you know theraputic kind of paganism um it's also seems to be an active attempt to subvert the patriarchy and and Christian Christian patriarchy right and this has always been a part of feminism it's like this idea the woman has the spiritual power to sort of subvert Catholicism it seems right right right uh I I think that explains uh explains a lot of it especially on social media especially among young people that it's uh among young women that it's this this this way to be empowered and to sort of take control and to and to wield power right um over and against Christianity over and against men over against the patriarchy and and the system or or what have you um but but it's it's obviously has a has a lure I think for a lot of young people men and women for that reason yeah okay awesome does the rise says Christina uh in puritanism among fundamental Christians uh rejection of Christmas Easter and Sunday worship is unbiblical and or Pagan have any correlation to this does the rise in puritanism among fundamentals have is that is that a thing I did I I wasn't aware I'm just not in that world but I I didn't know that that was a that was a thing I think that's a grave mistake um it's also not true right that that like Christmas and Easter are like P Pagan you know um in some cases the dates were were moved to sort of baptize pre-existing Pagan practices but um you know the the the church was very ingenious in in how it um uh how it brought Pagan Europe into into the the Catholic Church into the into Christianity um Paul Johnson's um history of Christianity single volume great great book it came out I think in the 70s talks a lot about about this about just the the Ingenuity and the creativity that the medieval Church uh showed in in the ways it interacted with these these Pagan cultures in especially in northern Europe to um to be able to present the gospel in a way that was compelling to to these different various Pagan peoples and he talks about how a lot of that was was lost when um uh in subsequent centuries uh in the 16th and 17th centuries particularly in in in the Asian East in in China and in Japan um and and some of the attempts by by the Jesuits and by St Francis Xavier that where they they wanted to do to do what had been done in Europe you know uh centuries earlier to do the same sorts of things in Japan and China and and Rome um shut it down and um and the church was not as successful as a result uh uh in those places but um but the notion that we need that that that Christians even even Protestants should reject Easter or or Christmas because they're Pagan is totally wrong we we should lean into those things those things are are Christian uh through and through uh that that's our patrimony that's our inheritance we should claim it uh and we again take it into the streets you know don't don't stay in your churches what's the difference between paganism and Satanism should paganism be thought of as a sort of denomination of Satanism unexp luciferianism yes yeah oh absolutely the P the Pagan deities of of of like ancient like Egypt and Assyria and and Babylon were demons they were demons and and uh and they were and they were understood as such by the by the pagans themselves they understood these that these were these were beings uh these were angelic Spiritual Beings that that in that inhabited the temples and that and that you know the the idols were not just Idols they were there was a there was a being there that they were worshiping that molok was a being um so yes paganism and and and and and now there's a whole section of the book we talk about Satanism as well sort of modern Satanism which is which is the perfect encapsulation of of Lewis's materialist magician who you know denies the supernatural um and Embraces the material while engaging um these spiritual forces that that they refuse to name uh but yes I think we need to understand paganism as a and Satanism as as sort of parts of the same thing and then we need to understand ancient paganism for what it is it wasn't it wasn't that disingenuous like worshiping of the sun you know to control people it it was a a method of control but it was also um it was also a a genuine recognition that that they were that they were worshiping actual beings I would recommend to people watching to check out my interview with Michael Davis who was a Satanist and converted to Christianity it was a very powerful interview it's got almost 600,000 views it was quite emotional for him um and I think it would be helpful to those who may have dabbled in this or are tempted to uh Ryan pinkoski says Joseph ratzinger wrote an essay in 1958 titled the the new pagans and the church detailing a similar Arc in Europe is this a trend that can be found globally or is it unique to the west and if so why I I think that it's uh and we we've kind of discussed this over the course of this conversation uh I think it is uh it is a trend that we see most obviously in the west uh because we sort of are coming to the end of of the West and and the post-christian era is sort of the [Music] um uh as again to go back to the analogy right the skin suit is rotting away right uh and so the the um the the marriage of materialism and and Pagan Superstition is something I I do think it's Unique to the West because we're sort of like the West is kind of reaching its logical end um and as as Christianity uh Fades and becomes a sort of a spent force in public life then um it opens the way for for this new kind of paganism to emerge uh that that doesn't use the vocabulary of like you know pagans in uh in Papa nugini or something you know what I mean it uses the language of the west but but what it's actually positing is is a new kind a new form of paganism so I'll give this one and answer real quick and then I'll let you answer it celra says so then should we live in the world or go go to a bubble like Stubenville real question here so my response to this is you should absolutely find a bubble cuz I think bubble is just a pejorative way of saying community and it's like this weird modern idea that it's weird to live in communities which is what human beings have done forever right so I think absolutely find a bubble cuz I think a isolated Christian is a soon to be apostate not always but you have a good shot at that being the case find a bubble but but to live in a is different to say live a sort of solipsistic existence or as a community it's all just very internal I mean just again just to speak from my own perspective people who live here evangelize like I I get to evangelize people all over the world through this humble podcast Scott Han gets to come live here in community and then go and speak and write books and you know so it's not about just retreating in on ourselves and all looking at each other there's a lot of external activity that takes place from this Hub yeah absolutely I totally agree live in a bubble and then grow the bubble right the the bubble should be expanding outward um Everybody lives in a bubble to your point everybody lives in a bubble anyway you know and and the question is you know what kind of a bubble are you going to live in and is is it going to be a small bubble or or or a growing bubble you know um but yeah you're going to have it be in some kind of a community so choose it well and and and invest in it you know and it's look and I don't mean to like sound like it's easy like building Community is sometimes a slog you know it it's you got to put in the time you have to put in the effort um that that's that's how communities are you know uh you have to be patient and and tolerant right um but but it's it's it's that or uh it's it's isolation and and um and it's e you either do that or you get devoured by the machine yeah that's a good way to put it I've had this thought before that finding a modern family isolated in the world today is like if you were walking through the woods and you found a child living there you'd be like oh my gosh you can't live where are your parents you will die here it's a toxic environment you must live with others you know absolutely that's my thought anyway um Pascal Baptist says do you think there is historical precedent for an American Embrace of paganism I am thinking of prominent social groups and movements such as Freemasonry and the Klux Clan which have influenced politics and culture in the American North and South if so how do we stand against the pseudo-christian paganism pseudo chran without denouncing American history that's a that's a good question I um I do think that there is uh there's a current of of P you know there's always sort of one of the things Chesterton talks about um in Everlasting man and elsewhere is is that uh you know paganism uh was defeated but but not eradicated right it's always kind of there uh it's always there waiting to to Bubble Up and and it takes different different forms in different times in history and in different um civilizations uh uh and we see these expressions of it in Freemasonry in the clux clan um you I mean you you you saw it with um you know early kind of like social Darwinism and and um in you know the 19th century we Americans especially tend to look back in the 19 because we have such you know we don't have a long history like Europe but so Americans look back in the 19th century as the olden days 19th century was like a radical time like the transcendentalists the the Mormons to go back to the Mormons like that the the uh the the rise of like non-Christian or post-christian or pseudo-christian Cults is like a an American tradition right you know the books have been written about this um more books could be written about this so non-Christian American Cults are are uh a very real part of our history um but I think to go you know you know to go back to what chesterton's saying the these are this is sort of like the paganism that's simmering just below the surface that's kept down and kept dormant by Christianity and where Christianity uh ret ret treats or where Christianity fades it bubbles up like the paganism is right there ready to come back in these different forms and and I think I think that's that's what we've seen throughout American history and and we're going to see a lot more of it in the future Nick LOF holes says it sounds like we will have to become domestic missionaries even more so than before what is that going to look like practically and what false assumptions do we need to be aware of that we can no longer rely on as we did in Christendom not that we've ever lived in it yeah well it's not enough to just go to church on Sundays I mean for one thing as as we've been talking about like you you you um again to reference Rod Dreer and the Benedict option you you have to run your home like a little Monastery but you should also like interact with your community as though it's like you know a mission right uh as though you are like picking through the rubble you're you're binding up wounds on the on the battlefield um that that every every part of your life has to be um geared toward um toward Mission uh toward evangelization uh and toward Shoring up safeguarding and and rediscovering the riches of your own tradition right um my my older brother became uh Catholic 20 years ago and one of the hardest I not one of the hardest but one of the funny things about uh me becoming Catholic is admitting that I had to like lose like a 15 your argument with my brother that must have been the biggest obstacle yeah you know when you're wrong you're wrong you know uh but one of the things he said is that when he became a Catholic he realized he he sort of pulled this image from from from The Hobbit uh when when Bilbo like enters smogs Lair and there's Treasures everywhere as far as he can see there's treasures and he said he said becoming Catholic and entering the church is like is like entering this treasure room and and you you discover just one little corner of it and there's all these Treasures there and you can't and and you can believe it and and then you look out and there's as Treasures as far as you can see you'll NE you'll never Discover it all you'll never reach the end of of the treasures of this tradition uh and and the Treasures of the church and uh part of what we have to do as as missionaries as as as Catholics living in the ruins of Western Civilization is to ReDiscover those Treasures to bring them out and parade them through the streets and and to and to be public with them uh they're they're not just for us they're for the whole world uh so you know discovering those those treasures and and proclaiming them to to a a lost world is a big part of what we have to do when did you go to Hills College how many years ago is that roughly 20 okay so presumably you were a Christian then because it's a rather conservative school yeah yeah so I imagine you were rather bought in Christian so what were what was it that led you to Catholicism one of the things about becoming Catholic is that you're able as an ad adult is that you're able to look back through your life and see um you know see the ways in which the Holy Spirit kind of was leading you down the Garden Path without you totally realizing it so I was raised as a as a non-denominational Evangelical Christian it was at Hillsdale that I discovered uh like high anglicanism uh through our the the college chaplain uh I I discovered the the book of common prayer which I still use today some of the most beautiful English Pros ever produced I memorized those prayers I use them daily uh I began going to daily Chapel uh in in in the Anglican tradition um daily morning prayers um and I see now like now I can see that a seed was planted there um you know I can look back further in my life growing up in Alaska my first exposure to lurgical Christianity was my father taking me to a Russian Orthodox Church service uh in in which you know there's a there's a very old and Rich Uh Russian Orthodox communities in Alaska um but you kind of see you looking back you can see that there were these these inflection points that were that were guiding you toward um toward where you are now and and I I couldn't see it at the time uh at the time I just knew that there had to be more to Christianity than me alone with my NIV Study Bible uh I knew there had to be more and you know part of being at Hillsdale was was was becoming educated in the in the western tradition you know um and and and the more you learn the more you realize just how Central Christianity is to the to the entire uh story of Western civilization and and discovering you know little little bits of that treasure little coins on the path and for me discovering that high Anglican tradition was was in retrospect uh that you know I was on the path to becoming Catholic 20 years ago I just didn't know it Edward and Cecilia ask former spiritual but not religious New Age Pagan here have you thought about the way modern Christianity can reclaim and integrate the truths from Modern paganism in a similar way that early and medieval Christians did with Greek philosophy and perhaps even tolken and Lewis did with Germanic paganism yeah I mean well she's you know the the question kind of answers itself just just as uh as as the ancient and medieval church right wasn't it Augustine who said St Augustine who said all you know all truth is my God's truth right something to that effect talked about uh the the just as the Israelites plundered the Egyptians we do the same with the pagans aquinus said much the same about Aristotle right you know that that uh there didn't used to be any any qualms or hesitation uh about the the Christian Church uh seeing uh truth in other non-Christian thinkers or philosophers or traditions and saying that that's the truth and that's that's our Christian truth you know and and we claim that for our own um and as we discussed earlier the medieval Church did that brilliantly with the Pagan peoples of Europe uh and that can carry forward and that carried forward into the 20th century Lewis and and tolken did it as well um you know we don't have very many men like them nowadays but uh but but yes it's it's certainly possible and it's it's part of our tradition you know we we've always done that and and we we need to remember that and and take that into account as we interact with the the post-christian world so I know you said that your book doesn't necessarily offer Solutions and that it's acceptable enough just to point at a problem I mean there was a bit of that actually in Anthony elen's book out of the ashes which I would highly recommend it's Wonder yeah wonderful book I love that dude but I mean other than what we've already talked about about living in community you know taking ground where we can and maybe just thanking God for the persecution that's coming ah it's easy to say that um flippantly isn't it not realizing how disastrous uh one of the one of the quibbles that I I did have with the Benedict option was that I I felt like um Rod didn't emphasize enough you know he he he he talked about at the end of the book or in certain places of the book he talked about how you know Christians have got to get used to being sort of like you know Frozen out of certain professions you know especially Prestige professions like medicine and law because um you know CR because because you were going to have to sort of affirm things that Christians are not able to affirm in order to be a lawyer or to be a doctor um but I thought that was maybe downplaying it a little bit too much um and I think you know that book came out what 2017 I think just in the in the years since we've seen that it's not just that you're not going to be able to be a lawyer or a doctor in Britain you're not going to be able to pray silently outside an abort you know within a 100 feet of an abortion clinic the police will come and put you in handcuffs and arrest you if you do that same in Ireland same in many places in Europe um if you if you uh dare to uh protest abortion in in the United States we've seen already seen how the Department of Justice is using the so-called face Act to persecute people who protest abortion and and try to do sidewalk counseling at abortion clinics we're seeing the weaponization of of of the uh of law enforcement and and the the court system uh to Target Christians specifically for their Christian beliefs uh we've seen already just last year how the FBI targeted uh Latin Mass attending Catholics uh not just in the case of the Richmond field office but they were coordinating with other field offices all around the country so but it's it's not just the case that there's going to be this kind of soft persecution I postchristian America will I think is going to bring the hard persecution that we've seen in in ages past which is the the force of the State uh and and the courts and and and the police uh against Christians trying to to to you know live out their faith it might be good to end with this quote from St Augustine it's allegedly St Augustine I haven't looked it up so but hopefully it isn't it's great wisdom either way and get you to Riff on it bad times hard times this is what people keep saying but let us live well and the times shall be good we are the times such as we are such are the times Amen to that any nothing to add well I mean yeah I mean that that that's it we we have to live the way that that we're called to live uh and and and life will be good even if it's hard even if we have to to to die for our faith uh you know we we we'll join uh the legions of Christians that have come before us who have died for the faith and who have sacrificed for the faith and who have lived in un imaginably hard circumstances for the faith that's something I think that we've as westerners have been have been insulated from and protected from and we had this idea that um that that Christianity um and and the powers of the state the the the powers of the government uh could could kind of work together and and and be in cooperation uh and I think it lulled us into complacency that that is not the natural state of things that that has been um the result of a very particular set of circumstances in the United States and in Western Europe that has obtained for a few centuries uh and we're about to return to form and um and and returning to form in a post-christian society means that Christians uh are the targets of a of a non-Christian or post-christian or Pagan State uh and and again we need to be clear about that and we need to accept it as a first step and um and then accept that it's going to be okay it's it's interesting how at the depths of us man wants to know what is true good and beautiful even when the truth is Pleasant if a police officer knocks on your door in the middle of the night you wouldn't say no no don't I don't want to know because you know it's not going to be good news you want to know the bad news yeah um likewise if you have cancer right now that's a bad thing and you wouldn't like to know that but if it is indeed the case that you have cancer you do want to know that you want to know sooner than later and it sounds like that's kind of what your book does it's like where are we going and why are we in this hand basket yep yeah exactly but only after you know the the reality of things the state of things can you then respond if you if you don't know and find any peace with it and and and like come to terms with it and say uh our civilization is dying uh and and and it's irr you know it may be irreversible um and we need to change the way that we live as a result of that um that should be a relief that that shouldn't be something that scares us it should be a relief uh especially when we when we take it uh in in context of of of the the promises of our Lord and and the the assurances of our of our salvation and uh and the status of his his church it should be a relief I know we have many people who watch from all over the world but speaking just about America how then should we vote in this upcoming election you don't have to get into that very specifically you don't want to but how how might this not lead people to be like well the hell with it like there's no point trying on the on the macro level just have a little communi I'm not even going to worry about voting I I think I think we should vote um I I think we W make a difference but uh have fun wear the sticker I I I I I think that there's that you can vote and participate in the political process without reposing your hope in it you know trust not in princes um you know so so I mean this was the case with with the the apostles and the early Christians right it's it's not as though um they they they were it's not as though they said form small militias and attack the Romans you know uh they they understood that we exist in political communities and uh and and we participate in political life uh but we don't Repose Our Hope in in princes and in political leaders and uh as Christians especially we should not think that there is any politician who is coming to save us we should not think that a majority on the Supreme Court will save us uh we we we should not Repose our because because what reposing your hopes in those things does is it makes you complacent it makes you think all I have to do is vote uh you know all I have to do uh is um you know is is donate to this this or that political party um and and everything will be fine but that's not true and and and we need to come to terms with that MH other than your book which will link below to by the way you're going to do an audible copy I don't know yet audio version that's fun I've had to do that a one time actually but um where else do you write where can people find you online I'm even though they should smash their computers and not go online that's right if you must if you must uh I'm a senior editor at the Federalist uh the federalist.com um and uh I'm I'm the only social media I do is Twitter strictly Strictly Business yeah um John D Davidson on Twitter uh and uh yeah wherever you find your podcasts yeah okay you're on podcast as well I'm on this podcast I'm on the Federalist radio hour from time to time and I'll be doing some other podcasts um our friend Andrew Jones the new polity podcast here later today oh good I can't wait to listen to that will he be the one interviewing you I think so oh gosh he's that'll be That'll be amazing yeah yeah people should we should have said that at the beginning so they didn't have to waste their time with a knucklehead like me talking to you and they could have had just Jones interview you but um all right well thank you very much for writing the book and uh thank you for taking the time to be on the show thanks for talking to me appreciate it

Channel: Pints With Aquinas

Views: 69,650

Keywords: aquinas, catholicism, catholic, pints with aquinas, matt fradd, theology, debate, religion, st. thomas aquinas, thomas aquinas, philosophy

Id: ID7F7gFeBMs

Length: 136min 58sec (8218 seconds)

Published: Tue May 14 2024