the only true way to be satisfied with yourself through life is to be as vulnerable as you can and to model that for other [Music] people welcome to beverages bites and banter this is a show where Spencer and I talk about the most important things in life things like coffee and bourbon and Technology we also discuss important life lessons that we've learned over the years so basically almost any topic is fair game but today we're going to talk about a particularly difficult topic it's also very relevant in today's world the topic is layoffs so we're joined by Todd Ellis who worked at Microsoft for 22 years before his recent layoff Todd welcome to the show hey thanks for having me good to be here yeah glad to have you here I wish we could have you here on a completely different topic but this is an important topic and we appreciate you coming on to talk about it with us yeah thanks for having me yeah so be before we jump into the serious topic let's talk about beverages right it's in the title of the show Todd what beverage did you bring to the show well I'm glad you asked because this is a special occasion I don't usually drink this I have Johnny Walker Blue Label neat very nice yeah it's delicious drinking it neat too I like that yeah pey very nice awesome Spencer how about yourself what' you bring I almost bought a compx box Pete monster which would have probably compared to that Pete but I I didn't want the smoke today so I brought a Mallen fine Oak tenure oh I haven't had a scotch in a while like what am i g to have today scotch and it's got this one's been Aging for quite a while it's just smells caramel and delicious and I got I've got some typing to do tonight with the writers group so Little Red Bull to go with it I can't disappoint Jim and only bring one Dr with I appreciate that I like how you're thinking about me when the show's not going on and prep for the show sorry I didn't mean to make you almost spit out your drink there but almost lost I appreciate you thinking about me being disappointed if you don't have two beverages on the show so thanks for that I appreciate it well for me I actually went with coffee I've had a long day I'm tired um I wanted some good coffee and I found good coffee so I have a delicious coffee that I haven't tried before this is a new one for me I ordered this one this is from cosmic dust this is their Polaris see if you can see that box Cosmic dust Polaris and this is a a blend of Guatemala and Ethiopia so it kind of puts together the best what yeah I love I love that right so it's got the the chocolatey caramelly notes going on the nuttiness and then that fru coming in and the acidity that the Ethiopian brings it's delicious it's a fantastic coffee I really it it's like it's an outstanding espresso by the way so Polaris from cosmic dust coffee first time I've ever had Cosmic dust totally work did you order that or is that a local local joint no I ordered it I believe they are out in California I I should know where they are but yeah yeah San Jose that's where it was San Jose those are my two favorite regions so yeah Guatemala delicious like just as a single origin Ethiopian of course delicious as a single origin you put them together and you make espresso and Magic happens so so thanks you got a cup of magic them I I do I do have a cup of magic and I'm going to really enjoy it they used to have a eth Ethiopian sedamo that they sold at Starbucks and I I had that and I was hooked like I was buying it by the pound and then it came Obsolete and I was like why why would Starbucks copy become obsolete that makes no sense whatsoever you know interestingly I tend to avoid Starbucks Spencer and I have talked about this a few times and you know for me I think Starbucks has traditionally their traditional Blends their traditional roasts are over roasted for my liking that's my personal par hear that a lot yeah and they they're great for those really sweet dty drinks though that everybody loves right like you get a caramel frappuccino and that tastes delicious together but to me that's dessert not not coffee like when I want want real coffee so but but Starbucks has done a good job of introducing some really nice coffees over the past few years as well so I don't want to be like a Starbucks Basher and be like oh I hate Starbucks I don't I don't hate Starbucks but I do for that's far as like pure coffee goes you know their their stuff that they used to have was over roasted and now they've gotten into some much better stuff in my opinion yeah I have to say when they had their Reserve coffee everywhere in their single Origins and they had their Clover system where they could just make you a hydraulic pressed cup of coffee that was amazing but it was it's been disappearing everywhere well this morning at the airport I had no other choice there was Starbucks there and I'm like all right I want coffee so so I got I got one of their Nitro cold Brews and I just had them put some soy milk in it and it was really good I really enjoyed it so kudos to them for that it was a it was a very nice cup so highly recommend that if you're find yourself in need of a coffee fix and Starbucks is around try that cold brew it was good yeah High caffine there too yeah yeah yeah maybe it was just the fact that there was only one Monopoly in the airport I promise I'm not that much of an addict where I was just jonesing for coffee but it was it was definitely enjoyable good all right so we're going to talk about this topic today of layoffs and layoffs look there there's been so much that I see because I pay close attention to the tech world because I live in that Tech world and that's the space that I do business in every day and you know it's it's difficult not only watching this seeing this in the news when we see layoff after layoff but also we've got a lot of friends I'm sure between the three of us on here we have lots of friends who've been laid off this year or since covid basically right there's been a lot going on there was a huge amount of hiring and now we've got all these layoffs and mental health is is a very important topic to myself I really want to bring that conversation forth more I think I think it's not spoken about enough and I think there are tabos around when people do have challenges with mental health and those you know I think those tabos shouldn't be there and I think the more people talk about it the more you know we'll break down those those walls and and and break down that taboo and help people understand like hey you know mental health is just like taking care of your physical health it's different but it's kind of the same thing when you have a physical problem you go to the doctor if you have a mental issue that you need to work through you should go to a doctor who specializes in that right there should be a parallel between those two but I don't think it's still looked at that way today if you talk about mental health problems you might be seen as weak or there's something wrong with that person and it's like totally the wrong way to think about it so with layoffs today I think that is is having a big impact on Mental Health across the board I'm going to bring up a couple of numbers here I want to talk about the scale of layoffs for a second I pulled up some metrics from layoffs.fyi these are the biggest Tech layoffs since covid-19 and so they've got this top 10 list and in the top 10 list they've got Tesla Google meta Microsoft Amazon by the way meta and Amazon are on there a couple of times I think this was like they were collecting each individual layoff how many folks were laid off in that round Ericson sap huge companies and when I look at the numbers 14,000 12,000 11,000 10 10 10 9,000 right these are huge numbers of people in the tech industry that have gotten laid off since covid-19 and so Todd you were one of these people you were one of the people that got caught up in this one of the lucky one of those lucky yeah and so tell me about it tell me about your experience with that give me a little bit of background on it yeah so it's it's funny that you mentioned the mental health piece first and it and it makes me think about before I before I was laid off luckily I was at a very interesting point when Co hit a lot of strange things happened at Microsoft in my experience a lot of the culture that they had been trying to work on a lot of the the things that we had done in a more soft kind of focus completely lost focus and and it wasn't like overnight but in the context of 22 years it seemed like it was very very shutter shutter wise right and and I remember thinking to myself why am I doing this I sat in my living room one day which had become my office and I remember my wife talking about how how much I used to love my job and now I would sit at my computer in front of everybody and there's a whole another story there but and I would I would l lose my like is this really what we're doing like is this we've come this far and this is it and so that culminated into I took I don't I can't remember what they call it like a shortterm disability leave like a mental health kind of and it was kind of trending at the time like people were starting to realize oh this isn't really the normal world but I attributed to a lot more than that and I remember talking to other individuals who I trust at Microsoft who had taken similar breaks and they told me you know it's very scary to try to do that and it's very surreal and I thought it's not going to be that hard right like we got these great benefits like you know we're kind of in a we're easing into a different kind of era it seemed like into this you know culture and you know everybody's you know respectful and and doing all these things and I remember the hardest thing probably the hardest thing I'd ever done at work personally was hitting the submit button to take that and I thought if you're this scared to hit the button to take a break for your own mental sanity how has work weaved its way into your life in ways you haven't even realized and I so I push the button and then you know all this whole chain of events happens but um that was before the layoffs but I I do I I wanted to touch back on that because I work out a lot because it keeps my mind right if I don't do that I'm just in a bad mood like all this other stuff happens but I had never thought that I would face shame for trying to take a moment for myself in a place that was so outwardly espousal of go ahead and take time for yourself go ahead and you know we're fine with that everything's going to be fine you know we use this as a benefit so so I just want to touch on that and I want to say to everybody who's who potentially is listening you know you have to prioritize your physical and your mental health before everything else because if you don't have that your tank is constantly dry and that just leads to a whole host of other problems so um yeah that's sidebar but but yeah my my Microsoft hang one second there Todd I I want to just I want to touch on that for a second so touch it there's so many there's so many companies that do have that not a mission statement it's it's like a philosophy in the company where they they espouse hey you know what you do need to take some time for yourself and you do like take time off take your vacation time and I think many people still feel really guilty about taking even just vacation time right and and to to even consider taking a mental health leave right that's that first of all it's a big decision so kudos for making that big decision kudos for Having the courage to push that button by the way and start that chain of events because the reality is that none of us really know how our company is going to perceive that about us there's definitely a stigma we know like this has been engrained into us we like we don't talk about mental health very much at all in this country we we just don't do it and if you do talk about it people tend to shy away from the conversations and maybe look at you a little bit weird and it shouldn't shouldn't be the case so kudos for that but I think part of this is making sure like part of this conversation today is making sure that people understand it's up to you to really take that step like they have to feel empowered to take the step that you took that you were brave enough to take and they have to find that courage somewhere within to recognize that hey I actually need to take a break and then have the fortitude to see it through and to push that button and to deal with whatever comes out of that yeah for real yeah thank you it's I think it's a lot about personal awareness like I probably wouldn't have seen it if my wife if I if Co hadn't forced me into my living room she would have never seen that and I would have just thought I'll swallow this this would just be another day in the office or you know like I can get over this toughen up you know all these different you know buzzword or you know but if if she hadn't seen that I would have never flagged it and I would definitely wouldn't have done it and in hindsight that I did it opened up a whole new Avenue like multiple Pathways of doors appeared for me like oh you don't actually have to work as hard as they say you should work or you feel like maybe you should work or you know and but there but there is a lot of the word that keeps coming up is shame but it's there's a lot of like I don't know the word for it it's it's close to shame but it's more like um it's like self- disappointment if that if those two are not the same I'm not sure but like I remember thinking if I push this button I've become weaker in the eyes of everybody that I know at work and what a what a terrible feeling that is when work is supposed to support you through through that they give you these mechanisms to do it you know so yeah it's wild because there were mantras of it's okay not to be okay coming down from the top and you put your own mask on first yeah to you are not your work there's so many that they they use and that that's another point that I hadn't really thought about but you know they they make it it's funny that there's laws that make it so employees can take mental health breaks and you know it's like they hide behind this facade of Corporations not specifically Microsoft but they they like that's a last resort right like oh I guess we'll comply with the law because you've told us you need this thing while they tout go ahead and take time you know just talk to your manager everything will be fine you know those features can wait it's it's not a big deal you know and so there's that and then on the other side of that is the guilt you feel for not getting the things done that are already your deliverable so you have you know performance reviews and all these metrics and Milestones you're supposed to hit now I can't get it done so then you're doubly feeling like you know a complete waste of space because you're like well if somebody else could do this why have I why am I here anyways and now they're going to look at me like I'm weaker when I come back so I it's a it's an interesting thing but yeah I think awareness is the first key that brings up an interesting thought in my mind that you know I I'm not sure why I didn't think about this before why aren't companies holding training sessions on how to recognize that you are heading down a bad path mentally right what are those warning signs so there's all kinds of trainings that companies provide and it's amazing all the training that I know I've been provided over many years in in working in corporate jobs about how to do my job how to do it well how to move on to the next level how to do all of these great things I have never once even heard of a training on how do you take care of yourself how what are the signs to look out for to know that you're pushing yourself too hard and maybe you need to dial it back a little bit maybe you need to take a little bit of a break I haven't seen that now maybe some companies do that I haven't come across it but I think it would be an amazing idea so if anybody is listening that can actually Implement that in a company there you go yeah I think it's something that companies really need to seriously take a look at they have some but it's like it's buried deep in the libraries of learning or it's or it's something that only after you push the button do they you they hand off to a third party and then those people typically will be like hey is this burnout like here's some meditation Stu like it got better with Co there's there's a lot of Silver Linings in my opinion that Co brought to the Forefront where we would have just been still driving blindly on autopilot if if that hadn't happened of course there's tons of negatives probably more negatives but if anything I think that it it upped the it upped The Notches of awareness for a lot of people and platforms like LinkedIn too like there's a lot of people who have permeated LinkedIn who are like look like this is real and here's how I dealt with it and I know this is a a professional platform but I'm going to drag this into the light so it might not be the company's doing it but it's there's a professional um focal point where it's now it's becoming more normalized I think that's great all right so let's try and get back on track a little bit so you took a leave to get the rest that you need to get that recovery time to get yourself into a better place mentally what happens next yep I can't well we're going to get off on a lot of sidebars but I'll try to compress it so basically what happened was I came back from leave jump backed into my work and swiftly realized that the management chain that I had was not really behind me in in taking that break like like they said all the things but here's here's your full plate again and then oh by the way we've just been piling more on while you were gone so you're going to need to hurry up and and go so I stepped back and I I did a throttled I guess throttled re-entry back into work where I was like I'm going to go parttime I'm going to do this you know I'm going to I'm going to work back into it so so if if that trigger happens again I'm going to be able to realize it and then I'm going to be able to pull so like you said I was at work I I worked for Microsoft 22 years never had a poor performance review ever in my entire life and when I came back 3 months after that was my performance review and I got what they call a IR so I can't remember what they call that insufficient rewards there it is insufficient results results that's the one yeah and so that to me was like this is how I get rewarded like like I take time off based on your suggestion and I go away and I come back and I rant back in so I can be the best contributing employee I ever like I feel I can be and then you give me this you know this this black indelible ink marker on my thing right and so that that that I think that was the thing that really solidified a lot of the feelings in my in my heart about about working about seeing a seeing a company as a as an entity that you could be loyal to almost like like a human like oh you guys are Trea me well I give you my time you know it's amicable like we're good right no after that it wasn't that so I came back to work I worked for about another year after that and then and then the rift happened so it was kind of like um it was kind of like a a blessing in disguise except for you know it was it was definitely shrouded in shame like what like oh this is the end I didn't get to say anything this is the end of the the era you're out see you later you know like like no real precursor to how or why you know there's no visibility into what happened they blame it on algorithm you just been randomly won the lottery and you know you just don't have a job anymore and so I think that that was that left the the worst taste in my mouth overall about it but yeah yeah so you use that term riff by the way I just want to be clear about that that's reduction in force right so that's yeah it's a nice way to say getting laid off or a bunch of people got laid off right reduction of force so rooll elimination Your Role has been eliminated yeah and and look been there tomorrow somebody else can do the same job you know I wonder I'm really curious I don't have any metrics on this and I'd love to find out how many people actually have been laid off like out of the whole population what percentage of the population has ever gone through a layoff Spencer two two for you Qui at Microsoft well yeah yeah I've gone through one this my as well right so I'm going to wager it's pretty high right it's a pretty high number and very often I I'd wager to say the majority of the time these layoffs aren't a result of poor performance they're a result of hey you know every department has a certain number of people that have to go now you know managers decide who gets to stay and who gets to go and that's you know first of all I've been on the other side of that equation as well I've been the person who's had to make that decision and I can tell you I have to it is it's it's exceptionally difficult as well now it's a much better place to be than the being the person getting laid off but I do have a lot of compassion for the folks who have to make that decision and have that conversation and then I also recognize that for the people who stay for the ones who made it through there is also a Survivor guilt right they're like wait a second all of these great people that I work with just got laid off why am I even here like and there is this guilt and this doubt that starts to creep in yeah right and so I think in these in these situations lots of people are really mentally impacted by this right their their mental well-being is impacted whether they've been on the layoff side or not or they you know they had to do the laying off or they were a Survivor so it's hard you're like going through the stages of grief it's yeah yeah absolutely so you got laid off and and so this takes a toll on you mentally what what happens next at first at first it was surreal like I like 22 years is a long time you know you muddy the line between who you were before you started or who you are personally and how the work impacts the things that you do and you associate I did anyways it's easy it's very easy to associate with the work you do as being part of your utility or part of your your your personal net worth if you will so when you go from you know I do all these things to they don't want me anymore this which is pretty much how I felt like now I've been shunned to what am I going to do next there's a there is a whole host of Hues that come in your mind like it it was it was over at first I was pretty I was shocked obviously and then but like you said it was it was I had seen a couple people who I thought there's no way in hell they're going to get laid off and then they got laid off so I felt and I felt that through reorgs too where large companies will reorganize every once in a while and you know they'll kind of do just like a small riff and I had always wondered like how have I made it through this like that guy was way better right like I have no I have no reason being here when that guy has to go and so i' I felt both the sides the only side I have f as being in the managerial position and having to decide who fate right and I think that that's I couldn't even imagine what that would be like but um so so first it was it was surreal and then it was um I I struggled a very long time with the acceptance and beginning to understand the route of unwinding like now that I'm not this anymore what does that mean like I would come out to my to my computer my setup right and I'd just be looking for something to do or looking for something to involve myself in that that seemed like it had some sort of res Lance to the work that i' had been doing and nothing obviously there's nothing there right and then you know you get ultimately you have to go to work you have to turn in all your artifacts you know here's your badge like all these things and it's so palpable like the feeling leaving there is like it's it's like it's like Spencer it's like grief like you're just like really like somebody had just died and and you're just like I guess that's it and then you drive home and then you're on your way to your new life whatever you choose to make that so I think there's a cautionary point where you know a lot of people can get caught up in the turmoil of of not being not having awareness to separate those two things or see themselves as a as a separate entity of of their work and their and their personal life and I think that the faster you can see that the better off you're going to be if you're able to so I went to you know a therapy I went through a lot I'd already been meditating for a long time but I spent hours in my hop tub thinking like what am I doing like what am I supposed to do next you know where is this path going to lead meanwhile you know my wife's like I haven't worked in 20 years really so what am I going to do you know and then all the kids like so there's so many different depending on where you are in your life I think there's a lot of different there's a lot of different threads that can pull on you in in a in a host of ways but you really need to if you if you're able to find some practice find something that keeps you centered in the reality of what's actually happening and and that was the key for me so you know and obviously there's all kinds of offshoots you know how long it takes to get back to work do you need to go back to work like what's your financial system look like your situation like there's all these different things but I mean for me my sanity was based in you know a lot of the learnings that I that I had learned along the way at Microsoft which only furthered the heartache because I'm like man they gave me so much and now it's like now they don't want me so I don't know it was very strange but spiritually I feel like I I found a lot of grounding there and after that it was after I was able to I think one of the biggest hurdles I had was being able to openly talk about it with my family like it was it's hard to to say we're not going to have benefits anymore we're not going to be able to do the things you know I'm not going to make this money anymore so what are we going to do well no more pizza night no more frivolous over here you know it's like you have to start shrinking it back and once you can audibly come clean I think the the earlier you can do that the better off you're going to be and that was my experience so yeah those those have been my takeaways so far and you know just know that the light's going to get brighter on the other side hopefully depending on what you find on on you in your experience on that Journey so you used this word earlier you used the word shame and I think it's an important word it's very powerful word and you you it sounds like you were ashamed that you were laid off it's something that isn't even your fault happened to you right y yep and it's a feeling that is not surprising in any way but it's a feeling that we shouldn't have when we get laid off we shouldn't have shame there is a mandate that comes down to ber Brown yeah there's a mandate that comes down and it's a it's like hey we have to reduce headcount to cut costs it doesn't say anything about you as a human being it doesn't say anything often about your performance now that I'm not going to say there's nobody that's ever been laid off in the history of laying off that was not U living up to the expectations that people had for them at work sure that happened but you know we've talked about you and your role and you were doing well at your job right and so there's so many people again especially right now so many people getting laid off they're not poor performers they are really good at their jobs and so to have shame it's a terrible thing that they're having to endure if you feel like you're ashamed of being laid off you shouldn't and you shouldn't have to endure that and so you you mentioned a couple of things that help you get through that you mentioned talking about your feelings yep yeah let's jump into that for a second because I think this is one of the most important lessons I've learned over my years is I feel much better when I talk about it and as a guy as a man in our world we're often taught to kind of bottle things up don't share your feelings if you do share your feelings sometimes you get made fun of right by other guys it can be it's it's just a societal thing that has happened and it keeps being perpetuated but I've also learned that confiding in people I care about people who are close to me Spencer and I have great conversations we share feelings all the time and it really helps me work through things Spencer I think it helps you work through things oh yeah I share my feelings with my family I try and be very open about it and I know that that helps me tremendously so talk me through a little bit when you when you made that decision what was that like for you to to Really open up it was it was it was very difficult and I think it was it was it was full of errors in a way that in a way that had often held me back so I have a very interesting outlook on children and a and a very interesting outlook on parenting and a very interesting outlook on communication and I think I don't think like most of those were born from from my own experience in childhood like we didn't talk about anything and when we did it was terribly awkward and it was just as quick as we get done with it that's it we're just going to shove that behind us and we're done with that and so I've carried that into my life where I I really don't have hadn't had um meaningful conversations with my kids aside from you know like the typical life things where it was me showing vulnerability or modeling ways that I think humans should be that I've learned along my path and it wasn't until I wouldn't say it was it was because of my layoff but it was it was definitely not much before that when I started realizing that the only true way to be satisfied with yourself through life is to be as vulnerable as you can and to model that for other people because if if you just tell somebody to do something or you say this is what it worked for me that you know that's just prescriptive it's like oh like here's a map go find the treasure right like how often does that work out never right so I mean you got The Goonies but that's rarely that do that sh happen right so I I realize that if you start to model these things for people my family included it might be completely awkward and it it will be completely awkward it was for me but but if I'm having a conversation where I feel like I'm holding a conversation with you or something that I feel is going to bring me to tears that is going to be exponentially more powerful than me being prescriptive about what I think you should do and so I began to open up in a way that I I hadn't expected but now I won't say it's second nature but I definitely have a lot more positive attributes about me and and I've received feedback from my family where they're like you're completely different now because these events have happened and like it's almost like they're grateful I'm so grateful you got laid off and we don't have enough money anymore because now you can be the person that we wish you had been does that make sense so I mean I get I get emotionalist talking about it but it's it's very in in several ways I would say that that you know Sans all the around it losing benefits and all that other stuff probably losing my role at Microsoft as been the most eye-opening experience in a positive manner that I've ever that I've ever had in you know in every facet of my life probably so yeah that's amazing to be able to take such a extreme positive away from a really terrible situation right yeah yeah and and I was going to touch back on something you said you know if you if you have if you're a shitty worker or a shitty employee and you get laid off for that at least you at least you know like you can put that back on yourself you're like come man I should have done my job better ter you I should why' you keep me was awful totally screw that up yeah I I can't believe you kept me around that song but when you but when it's nothing it's just like all you have is question marks and it's just like you have to find it yourself and so I I keep pounding on it but awareness is the key like you have to be aware of and accepting of the things are happening to you and just realize that this is just a moment in reality and this is just one stop you know on the bus of Todd or the bus of whoever and you know you choose to get off you choose not to like whatever it is but you have to realize you have to keep moving forward so yeah that's my take on it all right so you've done a lot of good work you know emotional important emotional work and you've been looking for a job how's that gone yep how's it going uh man man well at first that's a funny question at first I started looking at jobs for things in the same field things that I I I knew I was pretty well I'd been told I was pretty professiona there's that shame again right the impostor says you're you weren't as good as you thought cuz apparently they let you go anyway so I started looking at at work in that field just here and there and I was like it can't be that hard to find a job well hundreds of applications later that didn't work out right and so AI is blooming at the same time so I'm talking to all these different people they're like oh well your your resume is never going to make it through ATS because you know you didn't format it right and blah blah blah and I'm like okay well I'm not spending $1,000 to rewrite this somebody somebody's going to look at my resume and they're going to talk to me and they're going to realize this is the person that for this job well that never materialized and then I started thinking well I I had I had embarked on I'd kind of given myself a one-year deadline at work to where I I I entered into this coaching class I was like you know what if work doesn't work out or when doesn't when work doesn't work out when I don't get the role I want at work professionally I'm going to create it for myself and I'm going to base it in coaching and all these different things and so that came and went and I and I explored you know making a Consulting business and you know doing all these things to to bring what I had learned in the workplace emotionally vulnerability wise you know mindfulness wise all these different things how could I do a better job to consult companies about how they could do better for their employees and then I and then I put those two narrative together where obviously they don't care because now they're trimming every all these soft skills there's gutting people like I couldn't even believe what the things they were I was hearing not just Microsoft but it at several corporations and I was like well that's not going to pan out and so I thought well you know what all I really need is health insurance cuz I've got a large family and I'm like you know what you know I'm fortunate enough to be able to sail on money for a while I'm just I'm not going to create anything new because you know there's so many hooks in that and then you know am I just going to get shamed again because nobody wants the thing that nobody wants now so I just stepped back and as I as I whittel away at my health My Healthcare savings account paying for the benefits that i' had been so fortunate to have at Microsoft I finally realized that $22,000 a month was an egregious amount of money and I'm not going to be able to keep that going taxfree so I thought I'm just going to get I'm going to get the lowest level job I can find with great benefits and so I W I was shopping at Costco one day and I noticed everybody looked happy so I went up to the front of Costco and I was like why is every all these employees look so happy around here and he's like I don't know if you think they look happy you should apply at Costco and I did and two days later Costco called me back and they were like we would love you come in for an interview the first people I I swear to God it was probably more than 300 applications I had put in over N9 months maybe maybe a year and they were the only people that ever got back to me and I thought is this really is this really the landscape we're working in like really like I've done all these things and I might not be able to articulate well I I know historically about myself like oh what' you do you know that did this thing and you know some people want to hear I impacted 12,000 souls and this org and other people want to hear you know whatever it is they they all have a jargon or a speak that they have right and I didn't have that and I don't do well at like I don't do well at bolstering my own efforts like oh I did that thing well just cuz that's what everybody should do that's how I look at it but other people like wow that was awesome like that it was that's just being human right so those two things didn't work I went and got a bluecollar job at Costco I drive a forklift and a p Jack and I'm I Whistle all day long and I tell people thank you and I write thank you notes and I I'm just happy as a clam and it's it's been the best thing ever so so far that's awesome that's and today's my first day of benefits so so I I hit the Milestone at the lowest level I wanted and now I'm crushing it so it's fine congratulations that's awesome congrats on on getting those benefits and you know while we were setting up a time to do this you went fishing so you have time to do some fun stuff to do some things that are really good for your mental health yeah i' like to me and my wife got together she went she's gone back to nursing she's a pediatric nurse and that's all she's ever done and she went back to nursing obviously more more than she used to but we just consider ourselves semi-retired and so I think by having a mantra or a like a a label in your head as dangerous as labels can be I think that having a maybe maybe it's an agreement with yourself I'm okay with you know not working a full 8 hour day that's fine with me like I know what I'm there to get and I know what I'm there to put into it and so it's okay with me she know she's like I have to I have to uptick my work a bit my hours because you know we have to pay for these things and I she's okay with that but we want to go do things that are fun you know in August I'm going to Wyoming for a week to hang out with my kid and Fish on the snack River like it's just like and I'm willing you know the other part about this is is B boundaries there was nothing more solidifying about my boundaries like I had I had drawn Cy pretty pretty clear boundaries at work like oh if this meeting if I don't feel like I should go to this meeting I'm going to tell you no and they like what do you mean no well you can just send that an email I you know everybody says that but it was like if if it's not a good way it's not a good use of my time I'm not going or I'm going to tell you that I'm not going or you can take no through however I won't be there whatever it's not get Ed of my time and I built on that in in the in the last year when I was laid off by you know here's here's my non-negotiables and they're pretty solid right I mean they can change I can change them if I want but if if I don't get if I every year since I've started working I take my birthday off April 22nd birthday birday birthday I take it off and I don't work if you're going to tell me I can't have my birthday off I'm just going to go find another job like now it's just so easy to say but who says that right like nobody's going to say that you know so I don't know it's it's it's it's better aligned with my values and my principles as a human and a and those those things are now I can't claim they're fully in alignment but they're pretty damn close and it and it feels great sounds like you're in a very healthy head space right now and I am I it also sounds like you're going to take that with you let's say you decide to jump back into the tech world right like everything goes through cycles and the tech world will cycle through and hire people again and maybe you decide to do that maybe you decide you don't want to do that and you stay where you are but I've had a feeling if you decide to do that you're going to go back into that with a completely different perspective and really have some firm boundaries in place yep yep they're key they're key for me yeah I think that's another one of those important life lessons that it took me a very long time to learn was really Define those boundaries well so every interaction we have with people we work with people we work for people who are you know in different parts of the organization every single interaction really offers up an opportunity for us to put boundaries in place for example I work really hard I'm not any different than most people I work very very hard during my normal working hours and yep I'm a person that will put in time after hours when I need to I really try and get as much done and I plan out my days and my weeks to get my job that I need to know that I that I know I need to get done in a reasonable amount of time and when I'm when it's after work when it comes time to be with family I've learned very late in life to set those boundaries to not answer emails it's so tempting it's so easy to pick up your phone answer an email or answer a text message or whatever your corporate messaging platform is it's so easy to do that it's also if you train yourself properly it's really easy to not do that to commit to spending that quality time because the reality is we don't get a lot of it we don't get that much time for ourselves and our family and so that's one of my my personal favorite life lessons that I've learned is to shut it down take that time to shut down at night and now again there are there are weeks where I know I am behind and I need to get some things done and I try and communicate that to my family and say look I'm behind right now I'm going to be working at night I don't like I I need to get these things done but at least it's about communication right so there's that communication they try sometimes it can come out the communication doesn't happen unless they receive and understand the other side yeah it's it's hard it's hard sometimes to communicate he I need to put other family time or to chores aside to get this stuff done it's critical well and sometimes we get that communication back in a way that we might not want it to come back at us also right and so we have to be we have to be willing and that's the other interesting part is being willing to when you when you open yourself up and you are letting people know what you're doing what you're thinking we might not get the response we expected back in return and that's okay because everybody's going through their own stuff and everybody has their own needs at that given moment in time and so I've had that situation happen as well where I've opened up and said things and communicated and got back not a not the response I was looking for or anticipating but had to sit down and realize that hey everybody's got their own stuff going on and I need to recognize them as well at the same time yeah you said an interesting word there expectation I've learned a lot about expectation in the last four or five years but I think it all boils down to one elegantly simple statement is uh expectation is the parent of all disappointment so like if you expect something you're G to get it wrong every time because there's always that it's like when you flip a coin on something you know exactly what you want as soon as you flip it I'd like to POS a question for both of you we talk about these boundaries and what are you both said oh I learned this late in life are there tactical things like oh here's how I learned this or here's what become what became blindly evident for me that enacted this set of rules or this way of thinking this set of I can definitely comment on that so for me it was getting that feedback directly from my spouse so for me when I was really caught up in work I was ambitious I was wanting to get ahead and I thought that the right way to do that was by working really hard and and showing how committed I was to putting in the required work and so Spencer you said something really interesting that this was this was really the Catalyst was vacation time I would go on vacations with family and I would do work during vacations and my wife was just done with it and she was just she just had it with me and she just let me have it when we were going on vacation and she was like you are not allowed to bring your laptop you're not allowed to bring your phone and I'm like what are you talking about she's like you work all the time you're supposed to be on vacation and you're not paying any attention to us your family and that hit me hard and I realized she was 100% right and it wasn't worth it like what was I doing that wasn't that wasn't even an expectation from my company I was putting that expectation on myself as an idiot right and like that was me thinking in completely the wrong way and I was doing that to myself and I was doing that to my family which was worse right I could put up with it if it was just me so that was my big moment where I it was like it was the trigger for me really rethinking exactly how I go through life and how I approach my work life balance what's interesting what's interesting about the gy is if you yourself as a worker don't have a b aren't lucky enough to have a boss that's going to help you see that and push you to say no turn your off it's really easy for the company to take advantage whether on purpose or not on purpose and just let you do it yeah and that's one of the ways I learned to put my phone in the drawer and walk away from it was I would tell my workers the same I would tell them that but I wasn't practicing like who wait wait wait I actually have to practice what I'm saying but so Jim you so you felt that viscerally you're like you're right but what' you do after that right cuz I think I think often times it's like when I think of like social media right like it always steals your attention back like suddenly you're like oh here I am again wasting endless hours looking in this suck hole like yeah what what steps did you put in action right yeah you're right so there was the trigger right and then there's the process that everyone has to go through and so there you're 100% right there's a process it was like okay I'm going to do better and you you genuinely want to I think it's like anything where you're trying to change behaviors it takes a little while to change those behaviors and you have to be diligent and you have to be cognizant and you have to be willing to get smacked a little bit again right get the smackdown from from the wife again and like hey remember when we talked about this well you backslid a little bit hey you have your phone at the dinner table and you're looking at an email right now right and so it took time it took a lot of conscious effort of me thinking and realizing hey my family is way more important to me than any job will ever be that's like I can't even believe I got myself to this point and yes I I had I was surrounded by people who were very similar to this right and so it's easy to to just get wrapped up in it and let it snowball and so it took a lot of work and mentally kind of checking back in with myself am I living up to what I want to be to the behaviors that I want to have and talking directly to my wife and saying hey thank you for pointing this out and keep pointing it out like please cuz I know I know I'm going to slide back and I'm good with you pointing it out as much as you need to yeah so what I heard like like accountability yeah accountability and and self-awareness right like those were the keys yeah and intentionality he didn't say that word but I mean he was very intentional and this is and and knowing what the heck you want I know part of my a lot of my career in my life I've been dragged around by just where are things going like what are my goals what do I want how do I know I want to actually prioritize something yeah true so all of that is to say that I it's not that I don't work hard still but I'm very intentional yeah well I guess iess the riff my friend ask I should ask those those people who pay me if I'm working hard enough but don't ask them yeah but you know there there's that sacred time now and so I'm I'm very cognizant of it and like I said it's not it's not that there aren't weeks where I know I have to put in more time because hey guess what I'm at a serious a startup everybody knows what that life is when you sign up for that or if you don't know you learn really quickly what that life is like when you sign up for it but there can can still be a good balance in there and that's that's one of the things that I am holding sacred now very intentionally Spencer there is great intention to really work hard on that and so guess what I still backslide hey I'm human like everyone else right we all yeah imagine that all of those imperfections they they keep coming out right but it's how do you get rid of the shame from that first of all I'm not ashamed of it and I I I firmly believe that we should not be ashamed of who we are like these like this work thing that we do if you get laid off don't be ashamed of that there is no shame in being laid off like period there is no shame in asking for help there is no shame in recognizing that you need a break for your mental well-being there should be no shame in any of those things and I again and I've learned I'm getting pretty old now if you're watching us I have lots of gray hair you don't look that right bald head and gray hair so I've learned a lot of lessons over time and and definitely being just in in that moment when things are going bad for you understanding that happens sometimes bad stuff happens and it's not your fault maybe if bad stuff is happening it might be your fault like own it if it is is right but don't be ashamed of it shame will get in the way of this process of of healing right so just own that learn the lessons and and move on and try and move forward and try and do better all the time and a lot of times there's things that weren't your fault and you just have to understand hey I'm in a situation how am I going to get myself out of the situation and think through it but be willing to open up about it to other people yeah it's like you get this choice you can dwell on it you should definitely grieve on it and understand but you get this opportunity of breaking the cycle you were in and this new season of change that's before you so can you can you be present through it and present in what's coming yeah yeah there's two quips two quips I learned uh the only way out is through and the other one it struck me on the way to work one time I used to have a 2hour commute each way and I started listening to audio books like just ridiculous of audiobooks and this spe specific phrase I had to pull over on the side of the freeway and I was just like wow did I really just hear that and it put so many things into Focus for me it was instead of focusing on the things you dislike focus on the things you like and I thought wow like how much time do I spend focusing on the things that I wish I could change when really there's no way I have control over any of that like how much time do we spend on that right and so I think it you know it's a perfect way to wrap that up it's just like you know realize that these things are happening around us they're not happening to us it might seem like they're happening you know at us or to us but really if we if we're able to take a look at the opportunities that are afforded by all the hardships that come our way that's the only reason we're actually here besides procreation right like we're just learning machines and that's what we should be doing so you know don't be afraid of it just go into it well I think that's a great way to wrap up this show so Todd thank you so much for coming on being vulnerable and being open and honest with us it's it's amazing to be able to do that I think that's going to help a lot of other people to get to that place so thank you thanks so much for doing that and for all the listeners thank you for for joining us today on this episode of Triple B we hope that you're going to join us for our next show but until then have a great day and be good to each other [Music] h
