NATO members not pulling their weight | Ben Hodges | TVP World

as the NATO communique speaks of conditions for Ukraine to join the alliance there are certain conditions the existing members must also abide by these include the contributions to military spending at two percent of their respective gdps that's right and how do they fail in reality and is Europe really reforming itself in adequately really so here to talk about this is Ben Hodges former commander of the U.S Army in Europe hello and welcome sir welcome to TVP world thank you very much for the privilege so first and foremost I believe that it is really right for lead rightful to to ask first so do you think that Europe is rearming adequately not adequately some countries are obviously Poland uh in the Forefront of that and several countries have improved or increased their preparations but it's not just about the two percent it's about the Readiness of what you do have it's about integrating the territorial Defense Forces and the various reservists uh the way that they do in Finland for example it's also about resilience protecting infrastructure whether it's your cyber infrastructure or your energy infrastructure and then finally it's about improving protection of our of our civilian population I mean the Russians have demonstrated that they will use multi-million dollar weapons against apartment buildings and so we do not have enough air and missile defense to protect half a billion European citizens and also uh from from what I'm seeing you also can't uh can't afford well can't afford you couldn't you can afford it but you no longer want to protect the Pacific on your own at least in terms of the United States this is a big part of what's Happening uh today we have members from the indo-pacific and also from Down Under Australia and New Zealand um what do you think can be agreed out there well the United States does not have the ability to to protect all of our strategic interests in the Pacific region uh or in Europe so we desperately need to work closely with all of our allies and that that's why President Biden has made it a priority since the day he became our president to repair reinforce our alliance and agreements with partners and and various coalitions around the world so of course we we all have interests that are Global including Poland I mean Poland depends on freedom of navigation for export and import and respect for international law and transparency and respect for human rights these are all things that are at stake both in Russia's war against Ukraine and in China's threatening activities in the indo-pacific region so we don't have enough which is why we have to work closely with all of our allies right um and also I believe that it's mentioning that as the alliance approaches 2024 the 10th anniversary really of the defense investment pledge which is the two percent of uh GPT GDP now my question is because there is there is some debate on this some say that well the two percent is a flaw some of them say that it's a ceiling and um then again although um the general uh NATO Secretary General Ian stoltenberg says that well it is one of the most important parts that has to be reached until 2024 still some countries are reluctant so my question is can we afford not to spend on security having also in mind the war in Ukraine and the fact that the uh the threat coming from Russia is still real but look this this war Russia's war in Ukraine is uh what failed deterrence looks like the uh the Russians were sure because we failed to respond after their invasion of Georgia uh and after their invasion of you in 2008 and then their invasion of Ukraine in 2014 because we did not really react in any meaningful significant way they felt pretty confident that they could roll into Ukraine in 2022 which they did they saw that we were a mess coming out of Afghanistan they saw the domestic turbulence in the United States uh after January the 6th and they saw Germany was still building North stream too so they were pretty confident that NATO would not respond in a meaningful way so that's what I mean this is what failed deterrence looks like so uh the emphasis of the alliance on unity and on improving capabilities with exercises increased defense investment is an important part of making sure that deterrence does not fail again but the the two percent this is this is a metric but it's not the metric it is a floor not the ceiling but of course I mean it's a fact not every nation is going to reach it I do think that it will be very helpful having the uh approval of NATO plans for the defense of NATO's Eastern flank that this is significant because this is a tangible requirement now that Chiefs of defense and Ministers of Defense can point to when they when they are arguing budget with their Parliament or with their uh prime minister and finance minister to say look we Poland we the U.S we Germany we Norway we agreed to these plans now we have to Resource them so I think this actually will be even more important than just the two percent pledge all right and I just wanted to stick on this uh two percent pledge now some countries they might not be able to to reach this which I also believe should be a floor um now how do we how do we make sure that countries do at least of reach that two percent is there some kind of uh incentive or is there a stick perhaps what's on the course of course the what you're addressing is an important point but it also is a reminder that NATO is an alliance and and the nature of coalitions and alliances or the Nations will do what nations will do uh not every nation agrees with every Other Nation uh even inside the European Union uh as you and your listeners well know Poland has disagreements with other members of the European Union about different things so there is no stick that we have uh per se for somebody that doesn't measure up doesn't fulfill their obligation but this is where um leadership by the United States the leadership by the Secretary General leading by example as Poland does as Lithuania does to keep pressure on those Nations who don't um have not lived up to that two percent obligation but at the end of the day um continuing to focus on what is required to fulfill the the plans the defense plans this to me is going to give new leverage to put pressure on Nations that they have to fulfill their part of NATO plans and then of course if you do comprehensive robust exercises Nations that have not invested as they should have this will be revealed in exercises when they can't meet or they can't do what they're supposed to do and so this is going to be a long process it's actually a never-ending process I mean every American president since President Truman has complained that our allies have not done enough so I think what we have to do is just keep focusing on capabilities on Readiness Doing Hard exercises and and keeping the pressure on those Nations that fall short now part of the problem with two percent is that each Nation calculates their two percent in different ways I mean some Nations like that have been two percent from the beginning spend a huge amount of money on Personnel costs to include pensions that doesn't help with um anti-tank or air defense capabilities for example so that's why I'm not so uh concerned about two percent I'm more concerned about do Nations have capabilities are they able to do their part for Collective defense do we have the ability to move I mean I would be in favor of giving Nations credit if they can increase rail capacity for example so that we can move more quickly across Europe I think there's there's creative ways to do this right and and looking at the situation now we are actually with a live footage from uh sooner meeting with Voldemort zelenski and we know that they are at the bilateral meeting um or do you think that president can expect from Rishi sunak from this meeting well the UK has been one of the leading uh supporters of Ukraine they were the first to provide Western uh produced tanks that put pressure on all the rest of us they were the first to deliver long-range Precision weapon their Storm Shadow and now France has followed suit and I don't understand why my country continues to resist providing the atacum's 300 kilometer range long-range Precision weapon but UK is providing real capabilities and so their support for Ukraine is very important and I would expect that uh right now president zielinski is hoping that the Prime Minister will continue that but also at the Diplomatic level I have to say I'm disappointed that the alliance the the the language of the communique yesterday was weak I think people in the Kremlin must be uh enjoying reading this because it shows those that we still win the West despite the hunt a huge amount of billions of dollars in Euro that we have spent to help Ukraine most of the countries in the west including the United States and Canada still can't say or won't say that we want Ukraine to win and that we will I don't even want to hear we're with you for as long as it takes because that means nothing what we need to hear from my president and hopefully from prime minister is that Ukraine's future is in NATO and it will be in NATO and then we need to hear that Ukraine must win for all of us and we're going to make sure that they win to me it's ludicrous that NATO an alliance that was created for the defense of Europe will not allow Ukraine a nation that is defending Europe successfully against Russia that they're not allowed in NATO so uh we we've got a lot of work to do to to ReDiscover the sort of bold leadership strategic leadership that created the post uh War uh International rules-based order that's right the wording was extremely vague and it looks like more uh foot to dragging and speaking of dragging feet there's Germany and now uh the bilateral meeting just before the one with the Prime Minister Rishi sunak was with Olaf Schultz Germany's Olaf Schultz Germany f as we all know at the beginning of this War I was dragging his feet for a very long time now do you think this will change what what uh what can zielinski expect from Mr Schultz right now well yes of course uh we're all frustrated that Germany perhaps was slow getting started the fact that they were still working on North stream 2 up until the end of 2021 I think contributed to Russia's confidence that the West would not really respond in a meaningful way but I suspect the Kremlin never in a million years that they would see the picture that you're showing right now of Olaf Schultz uh and president zielinski together uh with Germany being the number three contributor in terms of equipment and resources to Ukraine uh I I think the Russians must be stunned at how much Germany is doing and um you know the decision by Germany to to deploy a brigade to Lithuania permanent that'll be there probably about 20 25 26. that's I I can I'm sure people in the Kremlin are in disbelief that that has happened or that Germany would have just LED this largest ever air exercise the air Defender that was just recently completed 250 different aircraft LED conceived and led by the German luftwaffe so should Germany do more absolutely should Germany provide long-range Precision weapons like Taurus absolutely um but at the same time Chancellor Schultz number one he's having to overcome Decades of his own personal political philosophy and then of course as you know Germany has a coalition government and Coalition governments require hard work to to get things done in the competing priorities so while I'm not excusing slowness and I wish they would do more is a lot more than I would have thought possible and uh the latest package that Germany just announced more tanks more ammunition more Martyrs more air defense systems um I I would say that's moving in the right direction now I would also say that the relationship between Germany and Poland is an essential part of NATO deterrence and stability and Security in Europe so while Germany and Poland will disagree on things and there of course there's history there I think too much time is spent complaining um from Poland about Germany it's just reparations I understand it absolutely it's definitely we see that it's a Time for Action and definitely also with the recent meeting between Chancellor Olaf Schultz and President voldem reserenski we see that well Russia's as you said will be uh stunned and definitely let's hope that they will stay it this way thank you so much for joining us Ben Hodges former commander of U.S army Europe thank you so much sir thank you very much

Channel: TVP World

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Id: ODOOSmzA5k8

Length: 15min 3sec (903 seconds)

Published: Wed Jul 12 2023