Narcissism | Chuck DeGroat | Steve Brown, Etc. | Key Life

[Music] hey where's eat I know where I am not here so what is Steve Brown etc without Steve Brown its etc he's an old white guy an author broadcaster and Seminary professor who's sick of religion and he's brought friends please welcome [Music] glad that you joined us it is etcetera it's Steve Brown etcetera without Steve Brown this week I'm a little bit out of breath cuz I just I just ran into the studio because I forgot my show prep in the other room yes Matt Porter did write me show prep this time thank you let's let's just see how it goes I I love that I can just stumble in here and it's so good forgot it in the other oh no I've been looking forever do you know what's a set I've been looking forward to reading your lines so today we're gonna talk to chuck the groats about narcissism narcissism is my favorite thing to talk about other than myself Matt Porter here isn't a narcissist Matt Porter is humble Matt Porter is smart these are math words yes you can follow Matt Porter on Twitter at a Matthew a porter that's Matthew Porter well I'm glad you're here our producer because I didn't have words no words no words our producer jinx is here working hard in the little glass booth jinx kind soft-spoken honestly I'm suspicious it's always the quiet type I don't know I didn't expect that from the neighbor he was just and Kathy is here the soft feminine side of the program she would never be full of herself ever because that would leave less room for sugar and spice and everything nice I will say I wrote that line you need a vacation son all right all right so what's with Steve is he out on vacation is that what's going on I know what we we pushed him out of here and and yeah he is he last week he said I hate vacation I said I know he goes I hate stay in here too I said I know life really sucks for you well I don't know I don't know man I'm looking forward to having him back is he coming back next we all know okay Chuck DeGroat is our guest and he is a professor of pastoral care and Christian spirituality at Western Theological Seminary right is that kind of like Zach and you know five times seven times Christian of the you know it's not like that at all yeah right I forgot this is Zach's award even though Zek isn't here you have to hold it carefully though cuz it's plastic it's rooted in Christian history it's a contemplative practice it's all kinds of wonderful things it doesn't even mean that anymore Eric it just means he knows something about the Enneagram yeah we talked about the Enneagram a couple of weeks ago the last time that I hosted the program and actually the Enneagram may come up in our conversation today as we talk with chuck about narcissism yes I'll stick around yeah and Chuck is an honor speaker consultant and therapist his books include leaving Egypt topics people to love and my favorite really made a big impact on me whole heart in this busyness exhaustion and healing the divide itself just what the doctor ordered for my midlife crisis please do check that book has it helped yeah it has yeah that along all begins that along with the medication is that why you left us everywhere there is there is a wake of pain and my behind my midlife crisis so Chuck hey man hey happy anniversary and happy Anniversary to you Chuck and I shared the same anniversary we were married on the very same day Wow yeah I've both been married for but not to each other didn't know each other when you got married that's right well how about what year was what anniversary was this future 25th we were married on the very same day a joke no the same day could be like 5 years or 25 years oh ok that's amazing isn't it it's cool yeah awesome synchronicity did you go to Amelia Island to Chuck no no I didn't know I didn't I went to Applebee's [Laughter] triplets baby it's on me alright so we're gonna talk we're gonna talk about narcissism like you said and I think it would be good to start with oh well I should say chucks working on a book on narcissism and it's what when narcissism narcissism goes to church when narcissism comes to church yeah yeah through our InterVarsity press and it should be out I'd say winter maybe spring of 2020 ok it's done it's just in the process now yeah alright so and is it going to keep that same title or is that confirmed or yeah that's it that's confirmed ok so look for that when it when it comes out and and go to what does it Chuck to grow dots what net net think yeah didn't yeah didn't move fast enough to get the dot-com huh so many other ok narcissism nurses alright we're gonna talk about narcissism going to church but I think it would be good to define terms because that word gets thrown around a lot and especially recently and I think it's kind of like a new go montoya you know I don't think they watered means what you think it means at least I suspect that I've got it wrong in some ways I do have some questions about it so can you kind of define what we're talking about when it comes to narcissism yeah well when we talk about narcissism there's a general caricature of it you know people throw around the word about politicians and pastors and everyone in between right but it's really I it's when we when we use it more responsibly we're talking about narcissistic personality disorder right which is a part of the sort of like the psychological Bible that dsm-5 and it's called a personality disorder which means it's sort of a long-term condition of sorts right some some mysterious combination of nature and nurture you know some mysterious combination of your biology and and your upbringing but it's a long-term condition so it's not something that is it can be treated in six therapy sessions or or through some medication it's a way of being it's a way of relating in the world and narcissism itself is a part of a series of personality disorders that is character characterized by more drama and more grandiosity and so typically with narcissist we see people who tend to be more grandiose powerful they lack empathy because they can't really feel what you feel they really can't get down to the place where you are so they're sort of always living in a one-up place it's always about them egocentric arrogant and and in some cases able to sort of use words that sound like humility but avoid humility at all costs so is this something like autism we're not not directly like like autism but in the sense that there's a spectrum like you can be a little bit notices and you can be like way out narcissist that kind of thing that's right yeah there's a spectrum and so when you do testing and I do I've done a lot of testing over the years particularly with pastors for narcissistic personality disorder you'd be on a spectrum of a slight elevation what we call narcissistic type a little bit higher elevation which we call narcissistic style or a personality disorder which is obviously more troublesome hmm my counselor actually told me that I have narcissist narcissistic tendencies no yeah you yeah which I reject wholeheartedly no no no it's it's it's difficult to kind of navigate this and and it raises a lot of questions and and it one of the questions that came up is is this something that is nurtured I mean is it something that you grow even if you're on a low end of the spectrum then there's these circumstances and there's this soil and fertilizer for growing and your narcissism is that is that possible yeah I mean I think there is a component of nurturing that's involved right I think there is a basic disposition you know I think we're all born with if you've got kids you notice particularly yeah narcissism is sort of nurtured in the soil I often say have shame it's not like the narcissist is told when they're young you're the best you're the greatest you're gonna be number one it's not that it's often the opposite of that where there's some sense of deprivation some sense of loss some sense of shame some sense of failure and and so this becomes a wall of protection around you I've got to be strong I've got to be powerful I can't let anyone touch the you know the that sort of the the pain pain vulnerable interior mmm-hmm yeah I heard one time somebody asked how do you become a great writer how do I help my child become a great writer just withhold your approval the rest take care of itself so Steve often says if you're worried about your salvation whether or not you're saved well then you probably are saved because when you worry about it you know thatthat should if something if you weren't spiritually alive in some way that wouldn't even be a concern could I say the same thing about narcissism that if you're worried about being a narcissist you're probably not yeah yeah that's good that's good and I think there's some truth to that I mean particularly as I've been doing writing on this I've had so many pastors get in touch and say I you know I'm wondering about this now like when you with me on social media do you think I'm narcissistic and yeah I think that you're pretty sure sign that that perhaps you're not maybe you're elevated on the spectrum a little bit but people who are narcissistic personality disorder are not that curious yeah no self-awareness thing all right we're gonna talk about narcissism and we're gonna talk about when narcissism comes to church and how this personality disorder can be kind of nurtured by a congregation by the position and the effects that it has in a church and you're gonna want to stick around Chuck the groats is our guest and again let me just mention this book wholehearted in this busyness exhaustion and healing the divide itself that's a really good one and go to Chuck the grout net and you can get articles on this subject and many others join us on the other side of the break this is etc it's Steve Brown etc without Steve Brown [Music] [Music] welcome back to etcetera Steve Brown etc without Steve Brown this week and the gang is mostly all here we got Matt and Kathy and jinx and John and the little glass booth and all the important let's play the game does the author know the title of it yeah during the break during the break our guest Chuck the groats was having a little debate with himself on what the title of his upcoming book actually is and I think we landed on when narcissism comes to church so you're gonna want to look for that later this year or early next year maybe yeah so and go to Chuck DeGroat net and get all the latest there so in the last segment we are talking about narcissism today and we define terms and talked about the spectrum and how it can be nurtured and the the book is really about as the title suggests narcissism in the church so I'm interested in a number of things like is it let's start here is it the position that draws narcissus or is it people come to the position and then the circumstances are grow narcissus so let's start there yeah isn't it interesting because the stats tend to show that and an inordinate number of people are drawn to ministry who have some spell they're on the spectrum of narcissistic personality disorder right so but we're not really sure why there's not been enough research done around this I do tend to think that there's something about the role the position the authority of an ordained minister you know being able to say thus saith the Lord this you know how many of us are afraid of public speaking and then you've got the small percentage of people who actually want to do public speaking and they want to speak on behalf of God people like Steve Brown who is notably absent from the program today you know I think we heard in the last segment narcissists don't want to be confronted with the fact that they're no no not at all but but yeah there is something about that and we're not entirely sure why we just know that they're drawn for some you know mysterious reason to the position to the power you know it's a special position and narcissists like to feel special you know I'm set apart you know I've I've been called to a particular kind of task not only that God has called me to a particular kind of task you know it's a little bit different than you know maybe I'm a lawyer I'm an educator or something like that know God has specially called me to speak that's behalf and so yeah yeah we see significant rates of narcissism among pastors and more so than in other professions right it's higher so I mean it's it's higher in particular kinds of professed professions right politics and law and acting and stuff like that but like yeah in ministry you wouldn't think so you think ministry would draw the humble among us you know but but but here you go so it's among those that are that have a lot of narcissists in those positions it's not higher than like say a politician because I picked that up somewhere it's somewhere that it was actually yeah war prevalent and it and it very well may be I'm not sure because you know there there just aren't studies done on this I mean if you go looking for them they're just not out there there's a recent Canadian study but it's it's limited to a mainline church in Canada but there aren't the kinds of studies that you think I've I've gathered this from 15 years of doing psychological assessments I'd say that when I do assessments of church planners narcissism is definitely a lot higher with a church planner then for instance someone who wants to do chaplaincy right I can make anecdotal statements like that but we really don't have the hard research on this you know all right Matt you guys there's some yeah there's some times like little red flags I mean that you know I'm not trying to throw rocks at anybody but you're like oh this is the Matthew Porter global international world wide ministries do not what is it about confronting the Lord's anointed or something like that they love they love that line right well I love it Steve says like yeah put a guy in front of 500 people five feet above everybody else shine a light on them what's gonna happen then ask him to be humble yeah well but Chuck when I hear all that kind of the things you're talking about I'm like okay this is somebody struggle this is this is something that they have to work through and in in that sense I'm like well that's you know I'm sympathetic and yeah I hope but then that's but that's not the end of it that's the thing is that that condition seems like invariably hurts the people around that person and that's that's where the game changes a little bit for me how does this manifest itself where do you what do you see most often yeah like a Jeff Fox Foxworthy like you might have a narcissus pasture you know if this and that yeah well you you often see it manifest in in well you can see it manifests in a variety of different ways like I've seen it there the caricature is of the large church pastor like you'd use at Matt Porter International Ministries you know but I've seen it in rural pastors of small churches you know wherever you have a platform wherever you can say thus saith the Lord whether you have ten people that are that are there listened to you or a hundred or a thousand you can find narcissism the way we see it manifesting more and more though more recently and you know there there are some notable public examples of this over the last five years or more I'm sure probably over the last thousand years but uh you know we we see it in men in particular and of course there are more males and pastoral ministry than females that may change over time but we see it in men in particular in large church congregations large staff that exert an inordinate amount of control or power over those staffs there they have the final say there the final authority they may speak of empowering others but they don't empower others they may even claim to be a Galit Aryan but if you're a female on staff you don't really feel like you've got a place I and and so there's always this sense that they're special and you're not and and you tend to feel it if you're on staff and I often talk to staff members on staff with narcissistic passengers they'll feel like on the one hand when things are going well man they're loved if they're loyal if they say good things about the pastor their love therein but the slightest bit of disloyalty the slightest critique and you're on the outs and you may be on the outs for a day a week a month or you may get a you may get an overt threat or you may get a really covert threat you know just kind of distancing so we're seeing it more and more in kind of larger church contexts so back to this idea I'm sorry Kathy did you okay back to this idea of lack of empathy so in a relationship like one on once a pastor and somebody in a congregation or on a staff how does this lack of empathy manifests and how do they kind of manipulate people yeah and crush them under their power and ego yeah it's this lack of empathy peace is really important and I would have said 20 years ago it was a much more sort of notable characteristic that that a narcissistic pastor in particular a leader let's just say wouldn't have the capacity to sort of feel what you feel are getting your shoes you know like gray Brown talks about empathy is like getting down in the hole with you you know I'm with you and your pain rather than being outside the hole going I'm sorry you're in a hole sorry you're in the hole right now what's happening now maybe we can talk about it after the break he said nurses are learning psychological language so they've got language that takes them south right my audios cutting out a little bit over the bumper music but if you missed it Chuck was saying they have language now that makes them sound apathetic we're hearing where they're not so we're gonna get into more of that on the other side of the break Chuck the grout is our guest narcissists it when narcissism comes to church is the book that's coming out and he's got a lot of articles on narcissism and many other things Christian spirituality and included at Chuck the groats not dotnet please go there and join us on the other side of the break for more at cetera [Music] hey welcome back so glad that you joined us on etcetera this week it's Steve Brown etc without Steve Brown he will be back next week right no he's not really you're serious about that my hosting again next week I don't know all right all right well come back some I had to discuss that with the whatever he is yeah the producer Matt Porter that's important so our guest today is Chuck to grow we're talking about narcissism specifically when narcissism comes to church let's title of a book that he has coming out later this year early next year and on the other side of the break we were talking about how the the pastoral position is like Steve said you know you you take a guy you put them on a stage five feet above everybody else you know give them a microphone shine a light on them and tell them to be humble well it's it's kind of that ripe rich soil that grows narcissus but also attracts them and we were talking about how that affects a church how you might see you know okay these are some signs that you know our pastor might be a narcissist but that we started talking about how that could be kind of manifested in a relationship like one on one narcissists are marked by a lack of empathy and they are also pretty manipulative in their relationships can you talk about that we need to flesh that out some yeah yeah so I one of the things I'm saying was 20-plus years ago when I was getting started in ministry pastors didn't have as much psychological agility you know we didn't we weren't as comfortable with our messes you know Steve was talking about this kind of stuff back then but you know we weren't as comfortable now pastors are more comfortable with psychological language and what's interesting is they're they're using that sometimes in ways that can make you think that they care and connect to you but but I'm calling this the phenomenon of vulnerability not vulnerability but fo FAU X oh nice and so it's sort of like wow I I think they care it seems like he gets me it seemed like he he wants to know what's going on in my life but but there's not really a capacity to be with me down in that whole empathetically like we're talking about and it's a whole other way of feeling duped I mean people who who've experienced pastors like this leaders like this husbands like this feel really duped because it was like oh wow I thought they got me I thought it seemed like they were in it with me but really the whole time it was about them and their agenda hmm so okay Kathy oh well I was just thinking the whole thing about empathy um you know I don't have PhD after my name good thing but our wit it always seems to me that women are better at this than men are anyway the whole empathy thing and that kind of thing so as you mentioned just a little bit ago about you know the change with you know more women in the role of pastor is it possible that some of that could change as a result of women holding that position and secondly and we won't be able to probably get to both of them but yeah does this this whole issue with the narcissism thing can that not also spill over into the leadership you know like the elders or whatever a particular denomination you call these guys who are in the same way you know in our particular denomination you call them ruling elders versus teaching elders but they're all elders and there are all in positions of leadership and authority and sometimes you look and think you know what were you thinking or where are you going where are you going yeah on the first one I mean numbers for narcissism are higher for men generally than for women but in one church that I was involved with consulted for a bit it was a pretty progressive Church female lead pastor and it was just as toxically narcissistic as any kind of more conservative fundamentalist church that I've ever been on I am in charge I'm special I'm powerful don't question my authority but I think the second piece of what you're getting at is that narcissism can bleed into systems and there can be this kind of interplay between the narcissistic leader and followers that assemble around and and affirm affirm the leader and you see this in a variety of different stories that have come up over the last 5-10 years where there's no recourse I mean the the followers are so loyal to the leader you know and there's never any sense that they challenge them and and even even if a narcissistic leader leaves the the impact of narcissism is still in the system like they don't know how to do anything differently and so it's still a system that tends to be more arrogant condescending special you know controlling manipulative etc yeah you know I'm interested since this is key Life Network we're all about grace here we believe that it is all about grace and I I got a I think that that that kind of thing where you're very concerned about I want to show unconditional love I want to show grace I want to love people the way God has loved me and then you got this narcissist and you're in this atmosphere of grace that can be toxic can't it I mean what were using yeah no I I've experienced this I think this type of narcissistic leader twice and in both instances it was not just the person they were surrounded by a team of people who allowed that personality to flourish and it wasn't just that they were loyal it was this defeated dead-eyed kind of like that's just how John is that just how Jimmy is and probably yeah and probably using the language of grace yeah to say oh well let's give him space oh well he failed in the oh yeah now we're gonna not hold him accountable under it under the name of grace they just kick around crazy sorry real quick no no I say no I agree okay all right so we're gonna talk more about that on the other side of the break and we're also gonna talk about the Enneagram the nine types you heard us talk about that on a previous program look for that in the archives it's Steve Brown or no sorry key life.org key light org just look for Steve Brown etc in the program's menu on the right side of the page go to the archives there so if you were part of that you're familiar with the any graham we can look at how narcissism shows up in all of the nine types we'll get to that on the other side of the brain [Music] welcome back to Steve Brown etc without Steve Brown it's just etc today some of it cetera is here we've got Matt Jenks John Kathy I'm Eric the former producer and now sit in the oh yes yeah and thanks for joining us glad you're here Chuck DeGroat is our guest we're talking about when narcissism comes church and that's a book that he has coming out if you'd like one of the books that's already out I recommend wholeheartedness busyness exhaustion and healing the divide itself he's also the author of leaving Egypt and toughest people to love and so we're talking about narcissism in the church and frankly I forgot no no there was something before the Enneagram wait we talked a little bit about the people who surround the narcissist oh the grace yeah yeah we didn't get into how this whole focus on grace will enable and a narcissist how does that yeah weird I mean that's just got to be horrible yes I totally particularly in pastoral ministry in a place of authority right because grace can be sort of a he gets to do whatever he wants to do kind of thing I don't understand grace like that right I'm maybe I a little bit uh inclined to Dietrich Bonhoeffer that talks about a more costly grace that requires something of us you know requires integrity requires faith on the faithful faithfulness requires honesty and so you know when there is abuse when there is pain when there is trauma caused by a narcissistic leader and that leader may be the debris field is so large that that leader needs to step down that's not graceless Nastase to that leader to that pastor and of course one on one you're going to extend grace and you're gonna care well right but I often hear you know well we've got to extend grace we've got to let him get back into ministry you know it's six months or maybe even it's six weeks no no that's not helpful at all you know grace I think is is often the work of caring deeply for this for this issue that I as I said earlier the word we often uses characterological it's long term it's a personality disorder which means that it's not just a kind of I caught it like a cold and it can go away if I rest for a week but it's it's sort of deep in our psyche and requires some long-term work and long-term therapy mmm Matt now I might correct it understanding if I'm understanding how this kind of manifests itself and hurts people around the narcissist it's not necessarily that it's outward verbal explicit abuse it's sometimes it's kind of low-key passive-aggressive yeah throwing stuff that just kind of there's nothing you could pinpoint maybe that he said this or maybe there may be gaslighting yeah it's just this just this guy's subtle psychological thing that just absolutely corrodes yeah we we often talk about the distinction between a more grandiose narcissism to more vulnerable narcissism or overt and covert narcissism which is you know some of it is just really blatant and and and you can see the abuse and you can see the debris field from you know a hundred miles away and some of it is really covert and gaslighting is the word used I think Eric you you just sort of feel crazy you know and why do I feel so crazy it must be me right yeah more sinister if there's just an ugly feels more sinister yeah yeah yelling match everybody can see it mm-hmm yeah you know I think that would be a really good segue into what you're doing in the book but yeah the nine types of narcissism that is has an underpinning of the Enneagram can you talk some about that in the the remaining time that we have yeah well this I think I hope is a genuinely unique contribution at least I wanted to because I'm an any graph for so I want this to be particularly unique and special but I haven't seen anything on this and I call it the nine phases of narcissism it's how narcissism can show up in these different in these different energies of the anagram you know and just briefly we don't have enough time to go through this in depth right you'll see it in kind of the the rightness and the certainty of the Enneagram one you'll see it in what we call the benevolent narcissism of the antia grab to where it's just like sort of give give give to get right you'll see it in the the three can tend to be a little bit more grandiose success in achievement-oriented you know maybe a little bit more of the classic narcissist cuz it's on the way to the floor before which I I see is just not unhealthy at all just really special the five is often the intellectualist you know the guy who knows way more than you do you know the six tends to be really hyper vigilant you Eric you shouldn't be doing that you know you what are you smoking there Eric you should be doing that right now you know the moralist mmm my wife is a six by the way my wife would say my wife is a six yeah I have I have a very sexy wife the seven the old the old any grams expert one of the classic experts Claudio Naranjo calls the seven the classic narcissist you know the experienced junkie the person who's always kind of looking for the next big thing you know the eight might even be seen as a more classic narcissist you know sort of compartmentalizing his his pain and projecting power in all of his relationships the nine might be the most subtle of all right hmm because the nine looks like the peacemaker but the nine can be really passive-aggressive and so really unhealthy nine can have tendencies of what we call borderline personality disorder which is a real close cousin to narcissism and it can be really confusing because it's like she seems really nice you know but I but I feel crazy I feel beat up around her hmm so each son manifests a different sort of face of narcissism if that makes sense and I would assume and then this goes to what may be my last question that's like you know other aspects of the Enneagram there's a unhealthy way of being a tie and there's a healthy way of being a type and so you said before this is a disorder this takes a lot of care it's not solved in six weeks but is it something that can be healed yeah and that's where we get back to the spectrum I mean those on the spectrum that that are narf statistics style or type who have some curiosity ORS Matt said earlier self-awareness there there's room for healing it might take a little while what you find with narcissistic personality disorder often is that there's far less curiosity and there's a lot of resistance and and so that takes a lot more work and a lot more time and often if he's a leader or she's a pastor or whatever the the role stepping out of a role of influence or stepping out of a role of power because that's just toxic that's just not good it's often from it's often when they get to a place of humiliation or they see it impacting their family or they've lost their livelihood that you begin to see the beginnings of the kind of humility necessary for the narcissist to really begin to change yeah because self reflection is the most dangerous thing right for the new so scary yeah because because it gets to that that route of shame yeah yeah that caused it yeah yeah like I remember I was working with a man who pastor and a very successful one who there there was a moment where he let me in and he felt like a little boy like seven year old boy and he let me in at that moment and it was like you had that moment then he shut it down and he never let me in again and it was like ah there you were you know yeah such a scary place but healings you can go into it hey Chuck Janna thank you so much for joining us today on the program and do look for Chuck's book that's gonna be coming out later this year or early next it's when narcissism comes to church you can go to chuck de grote net you can get a lot of articles on a variety of things very healing and challenging especially if but you're a narcissist you dare to look into these things and there are also events Chuck goes around the country doing doing various talks and workshops so look for that too thanks again Chuck we'll be back with a little bit more [Music] [Music] welcome back to etc Steve Brown it's better without Steve Brown this week I'm Eric Massey Eric jinx here John here and Kathy the soft feminine side of the program in charge of guest relations we were talking during the during the break about what's coming up next week and frankly we have no idea yes we are exploring so many options too numerous to mention and I would just like to say that Eric because mr. Brown's out of town Eric is somewhat in charge of this and that's why we have no idea what we're doing if we we might we might do a rear and if it does happen live I'm hosting right you are hosting and you have such a veritable plethora of personalities yes you can go to I'll see what I can dredge up yeah drag Matthew along with you while you're eating some good stuff man really enjoy this was an incredible conversation talking about narcissism but enough about narcissism let's talk about me I didn't like it when you got into the anagram thing again because I still have no idea where where I yeah where I go with that in heaven oh good thanks jinx I appreciate but gotta look into it go to little Cosmo quiz we did mention the Enneagram I would say go what if it's depressing well it will be challenging but it's going to be challenging I said depressing go if you go to any a Graham Institute I don't care if it's or net but they've got it aside or they've got a great test that you can take and it's so enlightening come on you got to dive into it it's great those book tests it gives us such a language to commit to it after I took SATs in high school so man and and you know since we are all about grace do heed those words that Chuck gave us about how grace can enable a narcissistic leader sometimes the most gracious thing you can do is remain in relationship love them and love them by removing them from that position especially if it's that kind of narcissus personal narcissistic personality disorder that's just so hard to overcome that's not gonna be like hey we forgive you and everything's gonna be okay get back everything you're hosting next and you know what in in and there's gonna be times I would think where that person is not going to leave you might be the one yeah for your healthiness to go yeah I'm gonna leave yeah and especially and I didn't get to talk to chuck about this but if the leader is really into preaching grace and then he uses grace as a cloak you know say hey you have to forgive me you have let this go we've seen that it's complex complex stuff so I do look for his book I think it's gonna be great if any of his other books are an indication of what's coming with when narcissism comes to church by Chuck the growth all right next week something grand and glorious though we have no idea what its going to join us until then may God bless the hell out of you [Music]

Channel: KeyLifeNetwork

Views: 1,601

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Keywords: Steve Brown, Grace, God, Key Life, keylife, sbe, Etcetera, steve brown etcetera, steve brown etc, Chuck DeGroat, chuckdegroat.net, narcissism, church leadership

Id: tmEkUtJoBNs

Length: 41min 5sec (2465 seconds)

Published: Sun Jul 07 2019