Mormon Stories #809: Mike Norton (NewNameNoah) Tells His Story Pt. 1

hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon stories podcast I am your host as always John Dolan I am super excited for today's interview it was October 19th 2017 and we are coming to you recorded from someone's gracious home in Murray Utah and we have a crowd of people here gathered to enjoy a special interview with I would say one of the most controversial figures in Mormonism of the past two decades his name is Mike Norton and I first learned about Mike back in 2004 2005 when Mike along with his friend who whose code name was Hyrum started a podcast called the church is not true and that was a podcast that I listened to before I started Mormon stories podcast and that was part of an inspiration for me to start Mormon stories podcast from a lot of different perspectives and so but but it didn't take me long after listening to that podcast the church is not true to learn about Mike Mike had a history from even before that podcast as far as I know Mike was the first if not one of the first people to record the LDS Church's temple ceremonies and put them on the Internet he also created a website as far as I know called Joseph live.com and which would sort of stand outside as I remember temples like the Manti temple and hold up the sign and advertise that website to people who are coming in and out of the temple now I may get some of these facts wrong but these this is my memory of Mike since then Mike has has done other things after they ended their podcast Mike kind of disappeared for a while as far as I was paying attention but then he resurfaced doing something super controversial which was to assume someone else's identity as an active Mormon become fully active in the church as a resigned Mormon okay under the name of this other person who lent his identity to Mike and then Mike got active in the church got a calling and received a temple recommend under a fake identity and then re-entered the temple to record the the new temple ceremonies to sort of capture all the changes and that's about as hardcore gangster of an approach to dealing with the LDS Church as I've ever heard so we'll be talking about that and then most recently it was Mike Norton who was the first to as I understand that released the video of Savannah that ended up going viral and global and as I as Mike's told me I think tens of millions of people across the world have now watched that video of Savannah which is the young 12 13 year old girl who came out as lesbian during her testimony in her Mormon award and her a member of her bishop her guest her to turn off the microphone or turned off the microphone asked her to sit down before she was able to finish her interview so Mike has been involved in a lot of stuff and I've known about Mike for a long long time and I for a long long time I didn't want to interview Mike and we could talk about that but I'll just explain why I've chosen interview Mike so I didn't interview back for a long time because I didn't really have a sense for who he was or his motivations and frankly especially while I was active in the church and extra sensitive to being exceeded I didn't want to do anything that that could jeopardize my membership since then I still will be candid I've been really torn about Mike's tactics I don't want this interview at all to be construed as an endorsement of Mike's tactics necessarily because these are things that I personally wouldn't do many of the things he's done and there are things that I wouldn't encourage other people to do especially when it comes to breaking the law if if there been instances where he's broken the law and we'll talk about that but uh but I also believe that you know there are issues and controversies around you know how sacred the Mormon temple ceremony is to people violation of the church's property and just you know what does this what does Mike's actions do to the reputation of people who leave the church does does the sorts of actions that Mike does give post forms ex-mormons a bad name in the sense of making sort of fulfilling the stereotypes that the post Mormons are angry and bitter and and broken and sad and and willing to do anything to harm the church and I'm not saying anything bad about Mike I'm just saying those have been the types of things that have given me pause about interviewing Mike I'd say one sort of thing flipped me maybe a couple things flipped me recently to make me open interviewing Mike the first was a private conversation I had with Mike over the phone where he started talking to me about his motivations and if I can be totally honest he actually started crying during that phone conversation about how how you know what what his motives were how important this work was to him and he showed this real emotionally vulnerable side that showed to me sort of the heart behind what he does so that that sort of made me say wow you know Mike's Mike's a little more nuanced or a little more sophisticated or complex than them probably his public image and so that that made me want to say hey that's something worth showing and so just like with that Sean McCraney interview I did many many years ago where so many people saw him as this evil anti-mormon he showed a personal side that was actually quite revealing and interesting to my listeners you know I I am engaging and approaching this interview was sort of the same intent so I have talked to Mike and I've requested of him before this interview that we not you know say explicit things about the temple that would be offensive to our believing listeners that we do our best not to use this opportunity to trash the Mormon Church or be disrespectful to it the spirit and the heart behind my intention of this interview is to show Mike's story and to show kind of what makes him tick and what motivates him and to try and probe a little bit more to understand why he uses the tactics he does so hopefully that's where this interview the spirit of this interview comes from I'll just also say something that may be viewed as a little bit controversial I see you know I've been willing to interview Mormon apologists on Mormon stories because we try and and do a balance and I see Mormon apologists as no more ethical than in their in their in the outcome of what they do then the work that Mike does so I'm not saying their tactics are comparable but in terms of the ethics of the outcome of the work of Mormon apologetics versus the ethics of the outcome of Mike's work I don't see apologists as having any any more of an upper hand in terms of morals or ethics than Mike and so if I'm willing to interview and I'm eager to interview Mormon apologists then I feel like it's fair to interview Mike because I feel like the impact of his work is as is as legitimate as the impact of the work of Mormon apologists so we can talk about that more in future episodes so that's my long disclaimer before we totally jump in I just want to thank everyone who supports Mormon stories podcast your donations make this possible so if you appreciate this work if you benefit from it just know that all this is possible because of the donations of those who contribute to the Oba stories foundation and the mormon stories we're going to be doing more events like this in the coming months and years we're in the Salt Lake area and maybe other areas we invite people to attend these events not only so they can get a personal sense of these interviews but so that they can ask questions and meet some of the people involved so what we're doing to sort of thank those who donate to is that we make sure even though these events are free to attend we offer Mormons stories and open-source foundation donors first opportunities to join these events so if you want to be a part of these sorts of events one incentive is to become a monthly subscriber at ten or fifteen or twenty five or a hundred bucks a month whatever you can afford and one of the benefits you'll get is you'll be put on an email list and give an early invite so for those of you who are here who are donors I just want to thank you for your support because you make all this possible so thank you we we are looking at setting up a patreon website that we can use to help incentivize other people to donate to Mormon stories so be looking for a patreon website called Mormon stories in the coming weeks we'll tell you more about that as we solidify those plans and then finally we have various workshops and retreats coming up to support transitioning and post Mormons please go to warmer stories org slash events their events in October and November of 2017 in the Salt Lake area and in San Francisco area so we'd love to have you attend if you can so those are all the business items Mike Norton after over a decade of being aware of your work welcome to Mormon stories podcast thank you thank you in fact you actually your third episode was hiring my my podcast partner back in 2005 that's right in fact I did that interview before he interviewed Greg Prince and that we you talked with Hiram and specifically talked about the plan to interview him and meet separately he and I separately and and so people that are that are shocked that you would you know interview me I just tell him he's been we've been talking about doing this for ya for well over ten years yeah so check out episode three of Mormon stories with Hyrum which was Noah's compadre in that early podcast all right so Noah I'm Mike Norton or Noah came from that's my new name wait that's right no that's what new name Noah I should mention that that's the handle you go by your name Noah so Mike let's begin by just talking about your early Mormon story talk about your if you want to talk briefly about your ancestry do you have Mormon ancestry were you a convert to the church were you bored of the Covenant yeah on my father's side my father was a fourth generation Mormon so I would I guess it'd be fifth and and my children or sixth generation Mormons my mother was a convert to the church joined in her early 20s because she was dating my father and he was LDS and and she had a you know a reason to to join I was born and raised in the church what we're uh primarily Colorado and and Southern California near Bakersfield in the San Joaquin Valley had a happy healthy upbringing and childhood I was a youngest of seven kids six boys and one girl and I actually got baptized to just just a few days after my eighth birthday which I thought was kind of cool to date I was baptized on the 4th of July 1976 so it was the Bicentennial my I remember my dad telling me the reason for all these fireworks is because you joined the church anything back then I was I was smart enough to know that wasn't entirely accurate but to be told I I loved the church growing up with the exception of a very very brief period maybe I'd say maybe nine months to a year when I was about 15 16 years old I guess 16 I went inactive for a period of time you know typical teenage kid I just wasn't wasn't interested in going to church for four three hours a day about three hours every Sunday so I went an active for a short period of time and worked with a bunch of friends at all smoked and it got to the point where I I actually started smoking cigarettes a little bit and and that was my my brief fling with inactivity and but did your family like was it a traditional Mormon family did you have family and evening scripture study traditional Mormon family in that we would about once every two or three years we would Fowler Gwen half family home evening I don't know I don't know a lot of people actually have family evening every single Monday most people it seems like it goes in spurts where they vow they're going to they do it for a few weeks maybe even a few months and it's kind of Peters off and they stop doing it our family was no different I mean I grew up in the church when when we would go to church literally three times a week it'd be twice on Sunday you go first sacrament and go home and you come back for sin is school and then the kids of course would come in what was it Tuesday night I think for for primary and and that was primarily in Southern California so the nearest church house was probably 15 miles from my house or so and and you know I I went to seminary action Colorado lived in Colorado Anna's a little kid than California parents got divorced moved back to Colorado with the seminary and in the early 80s back when you know seminary consisted of getting up at 5:30 in the morning and and going to the local church house where half the kids would be wearing pajamas effectively you pull up two chairs one for you one for your feet the teacher would bring doughnuts every every Friday and I thoroughly enjoyed it to do four years of seminary I did not I I did three years of seminary the reason I didn't do four is because I I moved to Utah essentially my senior right before my senior year and I attended seminary for about two weeks and hated it hated it from day one it was nothing like seminary in Colorado there were no doughnuts there were there were textbooks which I kind of blew my mind I'm like wait wait we have textbooks for this I thought the scriptures were textbooks we had homework it just they suck the fun out of it we didn't have you know scripture chases where we get together with other seminary classes and so I just I lost interest in it very quickly and unlike a majority of the kids in the class it seemed I wasn't forced to go to seminary it was it was voluntary and I made it very clear within a couple of weeks not interested I don't I don't like it and I'm not gonna do it and I got no pushback when when you were a teenager did you have a testimony did you want a testimony did you try and obtain a testimony what was your spiritual life like as a teenager if you had one yeah I mean I had various callings as a kid you know maybe the teachers quorum president and and III give the two-and-a-half minute talks occasionally I believed as much as as any kid I mostly believed because I was born and raised in it I literally knew no different so I remember trying to pray more oh nice promise trying to find out if it was really true I do I'll admit like in my opinion again like most Mormon youth I did not actually read the entire Book of Mormon as a kid in fact the first time I read the entire Book of Mormon was on my mission and and people who were are being completely honest I think you'd find that that's very common very common for for people to read the book of Mormon for the first time while they're actually on a mission you I'm just noticing something you keep try as you portray different elements of your story it seems important to you to sort of communicate what other people's experiences are relative to yours I'm curious what makes you feel like you need to do that because I think that I think was an average Mormon I when I got on my mission I like to think that I I stepped up my game a little bit do you feel embarrassed that you your family didn't have family meet me every week or that you didn't have a testimony or didn't read the book of Mormon before do you feel like you have to justify that no no not at all I I mean I really think we were average okay that's what I think if you took a hundred and random Mormons off the street and asked honestly how many of you actually have family home evening every Monday I would be shocked if it was more than like twenty so what made you decide to go on a mission when you when you waver didn't I almost didn't actually I I was I was hanging out with the wrong crowd when I was 16 smoked a few cigarettes I drank alcohol one time when I was when I was 17 but for the most part I mean I was I was a good Mormon kid I was afraid to go on a mission because of two reasons number one I had a girlfriend I was pretty sure that that if I went on a mission saying what happened to me has happened 10,000 times before and she Dear John me and and you know go off with somebody else that she'd be married by the time I got home and also frankly I I'm embarrassed by it now I'll act at the time confidence in myself and my ability to learn a foreign language and I was absolutely terrified that I would get sent to like China or Russia or even Mexico I didn't speak any English I didn't take any any language classes in school and and my personal confidence in my abilities were I just I thought for sure I can't even a foreign speaking mission and I was terrorist about that the irony is when I went on my mission it was in in the MTC within 24 hours I'm seeing these these potato farm and kids from Idaho and they're learning Spanish and French and all that and I and I instantly realize okay I if that kid can do it I could totally have done this so now in hindsight I actually wish I had gone on a foreign speaker ization especially Spanish what high school in Utah did you graduate from I did my senior year at Logan High Class of 86 didn't collect cash Valley yeah so you were born in 68 I was born in 68 and and moved around a little bit because my father is work but did you do any college before your mission no I never done any college okay so you go on your mission to where California Ventura mission okay so you go back to California yeah in fact it's funny my first area was Bakersfield which was less than an hour's drive away from the town that I that I grew up and I call home and that was Visalia California so my very first area was although my hometown wasn't in our mission it was a very very close for a mission and I actually ran into several people that that knew me and knew my family and and were shocked that I was back in California on a mission so what again I I may have missed this what led you decide to do the mission given all your insecurities I prayed I I knew how much pressure there was to go on a mission and surprisingly for me there wasn't that much pressure like I said there's six boys in my family of the six of us for one on a mission I didn't feel an overwhelming amount of pressure from my family I just kind of felt pressure in general and one day the bishop and I was actually I'll move to Utah I was living with a brother of mine that was just a few years older and he was essentially my legal guardian I was 16 and he was 23 so there wasn't pressure from him or anybody else but the bishop just called me in his office one day and and told me that the Lord has called you on a mission and and would you be willing to accept the calling and I I told him I would I would have to pray about it honestly I my gut instinct would have been to say no if he said give me an answer right now yes or no I would said no what happened when you prayed about it I drove to the parking lot of a Logan temple um late at night the gate was open there was nobody there and and I prayed fervently seeking guidance regarding whether I should go on a mission or not and and frankly I described it then and I would describe it now the same way i i i I got an answer to my prayer that I thought was was unquestionable it was almost as if I could hear a voice an actual audible voice the answer was so strong and the answer I got was you know what the right decision is make it and and I honestly i sat there and cried because my attitude was well there was my girlfriend but I've got to do the right thing and I felt like the right thing to do was was to go on a mission so so I did what's up a mission er were you I was i I was me I was passionate I was imperfect got in trouble one time because I kissed a girl a girl an award that I was in dianna Darlene she uh she slipped me a note one time when I went to her house my companion I went to her parents house for for dinner and slipped me a note underneath the table and and made it very clear what her intentions were and she wanted to meet me privately away from my companion and we made arrangements to meet outside of the house where my companion our a living and made out with Diana Darlene and she told her best friend who told her boyfriend who was a former missionary from our mission who told our mission president and I was I was demoted from district leader this is well past the halfway point of my mission demoted from district leader to junior companion but I was when I say I was a passionate missionary I was just as aggressive and passionate of a missionary as I as I am a an ex Mormon missionary now for example the very first area of my my mission Bakersfield I said to my training companion why don't go to this Baptist Church down the street and let's ask the minister if we can teach his congregation about about what we believe and he thought I was crazy and and I said I'll do the talking and he said so we did and I made it a habit of every single area of my mission we would go typically just the Baptist churches occasionally a non-denominational Church and my spiel was essentially I would say to the minister you know a lot of churches like to teach their their congregation about what Mormons believe and sometimes they give the backs a little wrong and and so we thought perhaps if you ever have any intention of teaching your congregation why not let him get it straight from the horse's mouth why not let us come in and teach your congregation about what Mormons believe and and the very first one the minister's name was Garth black and he kind of patted me on the shoulder and said well he'll thank you I I appreciate that offer and I'll keep that in mind and and of course the answer was no and I did that in every area of my mission and my last year was Thousand Oaks California my second-to-last companion Jeff Adams and I went to the First Christian Church of Thousand Oaks we sat through their services at the other services I went up to the minister and gave him the same spiel I you know we'd like to teach your congregation some time and he said well I think that would be a lovely idea and I just looked at my companion he looked at me and I said you know we have a lot to say we might actually need two Sundays if maybe we could take two Sundays that would be fantastic and he said I I think that could be arranged let's do that and and it wasn't the next week but the week after that and the week after that we taught essentially the equivalent of the gospel doctrine class who taught all the adults in the First Christian Church of Thousand Oaks what the Mormons believe and so we kind of compiled six six missionary discussions down into two brought the sister missionaries in of course we sang a song to bring in the spirit and give them all a copy of the Book of Mormon and that was actually the my last area by mission I went home a month and a half after that but it was it was the highlight of my mission I mean not a lot of people can say they literally taught a congregation on their mission does your baptisms on your mission yeah you know I think just about everybody goes on a mission if they're honest they'll say not only did they have baptisms in most cases they know how many they add and I was no different in fact at the end of the mission our president would actually tell us well let's see elder looks like you had you know X amount of twelve twelve baptisms on my mission we're we're knew those really special conversion experiences for you or oh yeah the families they want I couldn't think a name still David Nichol Joyce Bryan her daughter Brooke Hubbard James Roth felt yeah some of them some of you know how it is when you're a missionary you get transferred to new area and and there's a baptism that week as far as the mission president is concerned that's your credit yeah you could you could be teaching something for six months move yeah new companion comes in and they get the credit for the baptism so I didn't really care about the credit but but yeah it happened where I have some baptisms that meant the world to me and taught them from day one and there are some baptisms that I met him a week and a half before the baptism but you definitely had some conversions where you felt very connected to the people oh yeah and we met a lot to be a part of those conversions yeah overall did you serve did you serve as successful and worthy you know complete mission with the exception of Diana yeah I extended my mission twice actually I had the opportunity to go home I think it was September 16th of 89 and I was bothered by that because I I went into the MPC on September 23rd of 87 and I didn't feel fulfilled serving less than two full years so I asked you know it can can I go on the next transfer and and the next transfer was like October 7th and that came and and and right before that came I asked the mission president you know could I could I maybe go to the next transfer so I went up being released on Halloween of 1989 and I loved it I didn't obey all the rules there was there was a time my companion and I got in our car and we drove to the Hollywood sign and and literally danced on top of the Hollywood sign and I've got pictures pictures to prove it the Hollywood the Hollywood sign was not in my mission boundaries so you know we we've been a rule here and there like a lot of missionaries we would occasionally unhook the odometer on our on our car never buy a used car from the LDS Church the missionaries had and odds are they've unhook that odometer because you're limited on miles so you only have so many miles every single month and when you run out of miles you just stop driving the car so we learned very quickly how to unhook the odometer on a 1987 Ford tour how do you unhook the odometer of a car it's very simple surprisingly yeah so so so some are gonna say oh well see Mike Norden had a very early pension of breaking rules I think you for breaking rules goes back to that surely child I said oh yeah early so so if someone were to say you know oh well you weren't really ever converted you weren't ever really committed to the church you were troublemaker from the start it sounds like what you want to say is these are just normal things that that average Mormons do I I would challenge you to find more than a tiny handful of missionaries that did not at some time or another break the rules on their mission I mean I I was at a 19 year old kid you've you're going to do things you shouldn't do you know you can call them sins you can call them whatever you want I would occasionally break the rules and I don't think that made me unique or different I know for sure I was average in my mission ap's and zone leaders broke major rules yes and I actually live with some is only just for a period of time one of them went up marrying our mission presidents oldest daughter I saw them break the rules all the time right so yeah it was it was nothing unusual to break the rules occasional Before we jump into sort of your path post mission to leaving the church if you reflect on your time up to the end of your mission in the church especially in your adolescent years did you have any just marvelously positive spiritual experiences including your mission and your adolescence and did you have any damaging or harmful experiences three adolescents that up in to your mission in other words before we talk about you your path leaving talk about the extent to which you loved and we're grateful for your participation in the church and what extent you experienced things that might have been damaging and harmful to you you know in hindsight hi if I had damaging or harmful experiences in the church I have blocked them out of my memory so no no deep shame from like masturbation or you know sins you committed or ecclesiastical abuse or any of that sniper though you know I I tend to be I can be very sarcastic which does not trans way translate well into the written form sometimes I think a lot of times I'll see comments online to say that Mike Norton he's an and so yeah you just don't get me um I I like to say that I have a as they say back east they a wicked awesome sense of humor and and I'm very sarcastic and and but a lot but about your experiences I loved the church growing up I truly loved it in fact I actually was kind of the unofficial mission apologist to in my mission at the very beginning to my mission I decided we need to learn what the enemy is saying and the enemy were the anti Mormons because the people we're going to encounter this and I had two years ahead of me and I knew I need to have the answers these questions so when when I am encountered with it I can give a solid answer because I know there's answers because I knew the church was true and so right off the bat at the very beginning of my mission I developed a plan to to get my hands on as much anti-mormon literature as possible but I didn't want to pay for it so this is before the internet I called a number in Salt Lake Utah lighthouse ministry and talked to a lovely woman named Sandra Tanner and and I gave her some spiel where I told her I was investigating in the church I told her my real name my name is Mike Norton I'm investigating in the church I'm thinking about joining the LDS Church somebody stole me that that you might be able to help me out and and and share some information with me and are there there's others like you I've heard names tossed out you know Walter Martin and and Edie Decker and and and of course yourself and Gerald can you can you help me not only did Sandra to send me the books for free but she also gave me the home phone numbers of literally every name every big-name anti-mormon you can think of from from Walter Martin the Bible answer man to Eadie Decker and dick bear Chuck and Dolly Sackett I had all their home phone numbers and so I would call them all and just pretend to be an investigator and asked if they could you know help me out and steer me in the right direction if they have any material I'd be happy to read it and I started getting all this anti and warm and stuff in the mail and and I one of the first ones I read was the god makers and the god makers solidified my belief that the church is true because and I've talked with that Dekker about this before ed Dekker is the author of the god makers or one of the co-authors you know he made a well-known movie the god makers but and I told him this before and I'll say it again it is complete trash it paints Mormons out to be literally Satan worshippers and it's just one of the most poorly written pieces of crap I have ever read as a Mormon I thought that way and I feel that way now as an ex-mormon I have told Edie Eckhart to his face frankly if it wasn't for you and your piece of crap book I might have left the church when I was 19 or 20 years old how did his work make you think the church was true it didn't it just strengthened my testimony that that the anti Mormons have to lie and just make stuff up because my brain rationalize it as well you know if if they're lying like this it's because the church is true I mean why not just tell the truth you don't tell the truth because the truth is damaging to you and I was absolutely convinced the church is true and and this just proves it because the anti Mormons are just saying crap and Walter Martin the Bible answer man who I believe is dead now you know he had a book like a maze of Mormonism or something but he also had this this this whole slant of Mormons don't believe in the right Jesus and and so they're all going to hell and I just thought well what a load of crap but I got into Sandra Tanner's book Gerald and sander Tanner's book one of them I think she sent me a couple of them and Mormonism shadow and reality or reality but that scared the hell out of me honestly I I got halfway through the first dozen pages and stopped reading it that was the one book that was seriously frightening me and what I was the frigging because it seemed it was just so matter-of-fact it was so black and white I mean you know she has photocopies of pages from you know the Journal of discourses and there's things in there and I'm reading it and I checked out a couple of her sources just to verify that these sources were accurate and true and it bothered me some of the things that the early church leaders would say at Brigham Young three monks had some horrific things and that was disturbing to have primary sources oh yeah yes sir okay I'm gonna pause for a second because I what I asked you was reflecting on your early years in the church did you have positive experiences overall and or negative experiences and I do want to talk about your perspective on the Tanners and a decorative use the question so so just if you can you what I heard you say was your memory of your time in the church was overall very positive up through the end of your mission what one of my one of my earliest memories of the church was actually in the in the early 1970s sometime the church came out with a big thing pushing food storage and all that and I remember going to the supermarket with my father and a couple of my brothers and we got four or five shopping carts full of food that we stocked our pantry with and and I remember distinctly thinking that this is this is in preparation for for something big I mean the prophet has spoken and the Prophet has made it clear get your food storage because you know these are the latter days but and I still looked back and then as a fond memory I mean it was late at night I think it was midnight or something and my dad want to go shopping when when there weren't a lot of crowds there and I just enjoyed it I I I had a happy healthy childhood in Mormonism loved with my mission you know had you know a mistake here there broke a rule here and there but the most part it was an exceptional experience what is that what is your fondest memory as a Mormon the most emotional spiritual uplifting memory as a Mormon after I got home from my mission I worked in the Logan temple originally I was hired to be a custodian and then wound up doing security so I was I was I was a security guard in the temple in Logan and I had the entire building to myself several nights a week from essentially from midnight till about five o'clock in the morning I had the entire building to myself to me as a faithful believing Mormon in his early 20s who was relatively newly married that was pretty cool I mean to have the building to yourself for hours and hours I spent a lot of time in the celestial room of the Logan temple with without a soul there just me me and my god what would you do there pray pray you know I could think of it more as is meditating than prayer I don't think I was necessarily just praying I think I was just trying to soak up the the temple and mostly I was trying to I was trying to understand the temple because I mean my first experience in the temple I was 19 years old it was 1987 back in the day when they still had the penalties and I guess that was the negative the the one negative I can think of was my very first time going through the temple I had two brothers with me one sit in each side of me my mother was there on the other side of the room and you know I was born and raised in a church and with a with with the exception of the brief fling with inactivity when I was 15 16 years old I mean I was active in the church my entire life thought I knew what thought I knew it well and and I believed I had no reason to believe otherwise that not only are we in a normal Christian Church one a very very special Christian church because this is the only church on earth that has the the official stamp of approval from from Jesus Christ himself and I was I was horrified during the endowment ceremony I was I was terrified I mean at one point I'm literally drawing my thumb across my throat swearing an oath that I will never reveal what I'm doing I remember as I did it turning my head to the left trying to see my mother out of the corner of my eyes because I remember sitting in that endowment ceremony thinking to myself is this a nightmare and am I am i awake and actually is this actually happening because it was it was so foreign to anything I never experienced and I know I mean unless you're at least 47 years old odds are if you're a member of the church you have no idea you didn't you didn't go through the temple when when we were chanting in a foreign language you didn't go through the temple when you're you know pantomiming slitting your own throat and your stomach and pretending the rip your heart out of your chest and and being touched all over your body with oil and water by complete strangers and essentially being just this side of naked I mean you know the Washington anointing ceremony up until 2005 required you to put your underwear on during the ceremony and it it freaked me out but I went with you know the rationalization which was you know you just you have to go a lot you have to you know there's so much deep meaning in the temple and and you have to go a lot to really understand it so I spent a lot of hours when I worked in the temple in the Celestra room trying to understand it and trying to trying to commune with God and and get some sort of inspiration I went to the temple all the time there there was one other I guess you could say a negative experience to me when I got married I got married six weeks after my mission I mean I was how is a good six week said to them in her after you know there was the girl that that I fell in love with before I went on my mission she waited and she waited oh I told her when I went on my mission um I encouraged her to date I said don't you know don't just sit around waiting for me Isaac date if you find another guy that you think is is a better match for you than me take it and and and you know this send me a letter and just be honest with me and she did she added a little bit when she was when I was on my mission and I got back and we the funny thing is is we were actually technically we were engaged while I was on my mission and right before I got home I actually dear Jane Durr I wrote her a letter and I said I really feel like maybe I should should be able to date other people I had it I had one girl in mind I a girl I met in the MTC your name is Lisa Barrett and and Lisa and I wrote to each other while we were on our missions became very close to her just from writing letters back and forth and I wanted the date Lisa Barrett so I actually dated for a couple of weeks after my mission so we actually got married four weeks after my last date with another with another woman and we told her parents actually we announced the wedding two weeks before we got married when we first told her parents we're getting married in two weeks I believe our mom's first response was oh no are you pregnant oh no and now I just we just knew that if we don't get married soon we're not going to be worthy to go to the temple because you know we were I'm at was 21 she was 20 and you know hormones raging and all that and and we hadn't seen each other in a couple of years we knew if we don't get married soon it's not gonna happen in the temple so were you married the Logan temple we did get married and looking temple December 16th 1989 and you were about to say a second bad expiry you had in the church related to related to that actually when I took the woman now we're divorced now we got divorced a few years after we left the church but she's a mother of my children and and I was deeply in love with her at the time I took her through the temple for her first experience and a few people out there might not be aware of it but when a woman goes to the temple for the first time and it's because she's getting married their groom their future husband is the one that stands on the other side of the veil and is the one that that's doing the handshakes with him at the veil and and is the one that they whisper their new name to and we get through the process we get in this lush room I keep in mind she's got a large family and very very active family almost all of them extremely active conservative Mormons Salveson is a good people I did a shout out of this Allison's Mike and Carol II Salveson were parents and a big family so a lot of were there we get in the celestial room right after her first experience in the endowment ceremony and this was December of 1989 so the penalties were still intact and she says to me in the Celestra room with the fakest smile I've ever seen on her face and she said it like a ventriloquist so that nobody could read her lips she smiled and she said I don't ever want to do that again and I said wait why and she goes I don't ever want to do that again and I go oh no no it gets it's better and you just have to go through a lot and yeah it was a lot then and she goes I don't everyone to do that again here comes my parents shut up and I'm like alright so if we got out of the temple get in the car the first thing I say to her in the car was okay let's talk about what you said in the celestial room well and she goes I do not ever want to do that again why and she was I think she's a little upset that I didn't warn her I didn't give her any any heads up in my defense I wasn't I wasn't allowed to I mean you know we we swore oaths to never reveal what we were doing then I didn't tell her nobody gave me and he heads up and and and I wasn't about to violate my covenants and tell her by the way we didn't you doing handshakes and you're gonna have to pantomime slitting your own throat and yeah I didn't I didn't tell her hindsight I wish I had but she was horrified and and this was December of 1989 keep in mind we left the church January of 2002 I went through the endowment ceremony probably 50 maybe 75 more times I mean I worked in the temple and I got off work at 6 o'clock in the morning so there was many times so after I got off work I'd go through a session true to her word she never went through another endowment ceremony ever again and that was that was disturbing to me too to have the woman I was about to marry tell me with with a look of true terror on her face she was she was frightened that she never wanted to do it again and this was supposed to be the pinnacle of of our experience in a church I mean you know it doesn't get any bigger than then receiving your endowments and being in the celestial room and she's telling me it that's not happen again ever so talk about what led to you both leaving the church and I'm being so committed and so development so we got married in 89 we had had a few kids we're very active in the church and in late 2001 my wife and I were Co teachers of the gospel essentials class and this whole time you're a believing or devout member oh yeah and back at one point in the early 90s we're live at a Logan and early 90s I saw that and in The Herald Journal in the newspaper that Ed Dekker the author of the god makers was coming to Logan and he was going to speaking at this church and I I was just like oh hell no not not in my town so so I gathered some dirt on ed Dekker I reached out I got ahold of his ex-wife and I basically said give me everything you got on Ed I want the good the bad and the ugly but let's emphasize the bad and the ugly and and I made up a little flyer and I eed goes to the church I waited and tell the little things started so everybody's inside and I went and I put these flyers which didn't really attack Ed's message it just was a personal character attack on e deck himself trying to discredit it's it was a very very typical Mormon response don't don't attack the message because it's you know it's kind of hard to attack the truth so you attack the messenger and that's what I did I put these Flyers on the windshield of every car in the parking lot and somebody caught me and they and they took all the Flyers off all the windshields and astoundingly handed them back to me and they said well these aren't welcome here thank you very much we're gonna have to ask you to leave the property well this church and Logan only had one driveway one entrance into and out of the church and I was wearing a shirt and tie so I just stood outside of that driveway and at the end of the service when everybody got out and they're driving out there's a guy standing there wearing a shirt and tie handing out flyers and as those people were walling up with their cars we're all that windows down I would say hey thanks for coming today I appreciate it thank you so much thank you thank you and I'm handing the most flyers basically just sharing personal dirt on Ed decker I want I won't share that now because it's it's really irrelevant Ed's personal history is is irrelevant to to the what I said it was true is all true but it was not flattering for Edie and then the next day he was going to Brigham City so I went to Brigham City and the church he was speaking that there is right on Main Street I think it's called the church on Main Street or something in Brigham City but everybody that came into the church literally had to walk right down to the public sidewalk and walk in the door right there so I stood on the public sidewalk handing out flyers to people telling them you know this is making a personal character attack on the the the messenger that they were about to listen to at one point Edie came out of the church had a semi-private conversation with me it was it was me and Edie and my older brother Dawn and Edie and Ed has threatened to sue me over the years and has made thinly veiled threats to to come to my place of employment and confront me on the slim chance Edie has you know watches this special message add if I may bring on it you you can't sue somebody successfully for telling the truth and I just I I thought the man was a a liar my personal opinion was he was a liar and and he he was just I felt he was a scumbag honestly it just he was he was attacking the church that I loved and held dear and and even as an ex-mormon now I can now look back and realize if it wasn't for the God makers at and and the lies if every anti-mormon book was like the Tanners man holy cow I'm almost sure I would have left the church significantly earlier i I I almost blame Edie Decker himself for staying right Church as long as I did so what made you leave the church September 2001 I was I was making good money I wanted to buy something to hang on my wall in my living room that would be a fun conversation piece and would combine my love of church and history I'm a I'm a big history buff so I thought wouldn't it be fun to to buy an original Mark Hofmann forgery I mean that's a great conversation piece you know and the home teachers would be over they'd be like just is that Joseph Smith's you know sons blessing or something another at my mike goldrich and I wanted to buy like you know the Joseph Smith the third blessing but it wasn't for sale but there are mark Hoffman original and Mark Hofmann forgery's for sale he made an awful lot of them and he over five thousand maybe ten thousand dollars you can you can buy a good one you can buy a doozy and in the process of trying to find a Mark Hofmann forgery for sale I accidentally ran across his web website it was like dr. shades page on Mormonism or something to that effect run by a guy named Jason galantine and he had the story of the Kinderhook plates and a lot of people aren't familiar with that I will nutshell the Kinderhook plates in two minutes in 1842 there is a all the Mormons are living in Nauvoo Illinois there was a town 90 miles away called Kinderhook Illinois and a couple of guys made this little scheme where we're gonna make these bogus little plates so we're gonna put some chicken scratches on them we're gonna bury it in the hill at nighttime and then in the daytime we'll dig it up and tell everybody oh my gosh look what we found eventually words gonna get back to the Mormon prophet Joseph Smith and you know he might want to buy this because you know that's just what he does and their plan worked pretty flawlessly actually the the bogus little plates that have become known as the Kinderhook plates found their way to Joseph Smith I'm sure somebody said oh you know who could translate that the Prophet Joseph Smith so Joseph Smith gets ahold of these plates and I'll paraphrase but it's close to an exact quote he said of these bogus plates that were made a few nights before I see they contain a record of the man with whom they were buried he was a descendant of ham the loins of the Pharaoh and he received his kingdom from the ruler of heaven and earth and of course the crowd of Mormons around I'm sure cheered oh yeah you know the the Mormon newspaper and Nabu the times and seasons had copies of all of the the plates there six plates the front and back of all of all six of them on the front page of the newspaper another local newspaper referred to these Kinderhook plates as nothing short of a sequel to the Book of Mormon the problem is is that as an amateur apologists on my mission I knew about the Kindred plates and the church even ran an insane article about it back in the early 80s when one of these plates was was found and they did some testing on it and verified okay they're definitely bogus and the church published this and said this you know these plates are bogus but the church's spin on the Kinderhook plates was slightly different than the version that I was reading online and it dawned on me there was it was a there was a slight difference the quote that was attributed to Joseph Smith where he said I see they contain a record of the man with whom they were buried blah blah blah the church's response to that essentially was you know some member wrote this in their journal and and unfortunately when BH Roberts was compiling the history of the church he took it from a third hand account and turned it into a first-hand account the truth the matter is Joseph Smith didn't actually say this somebody wrote in their journal President Smith said the plates contain a record of the man with whom they were buried and so on and so forth you know where where he got this idea we just don't know but unfortunately it made its way into the history of the church and it is what it is well the person who wrote this in their journal was William Clayton Joseph Smith's personal paid professional secretary who also in his journal wrote let's see I think was Doctrine and Covenants section 130 131 132 and I was I was upset I mean I'm a history buff and it felt to me like the church was intentionally altering history they were they were intentionally hiding the truth they knew damn good and well that William Clayton was was known for his impeccable record keeping and they would they wouldn't have their cake and eat it too they wanted to say okay this page of this man's Journal totally unreliable we don't know who this guy is 16 pages later this is the Word of God in its canonized Scripture and I just thought as a as a Mormon you can't have it both ways either the man's reliable or or he's just some unreliable source you can't you can't have it both ways but the Mormon mind and me rationalized it I thought you know what maybe this is why the Prophet Joseph Smith was was was killed maybe this is why the Lord allowed him to be killed because he knew that he was going to going to translate these bogus plates and maybe turn it to you know the book of Kinderhook and I thought the Lord will never allow his servant the prophet to to lead the people astray so maybe that's what happened and I thought you know Joseph Smith isn't perfect he had he had an ego I'm sure he I I think at the time I felt like if somebody's bringing him in these these plates in there saying hey what does it say he didn't have the courage to simply go boy guys I am drawing a blank on this I really don't know or the Lord Himself didn't didn't whisper it him with the still small voice and say those plates are fakes they're trying to fool you I mean in the Bible I think you've got the Apostle Paul there was an incident where somebody tried to con him and his power of discernment kicked in right away and and you know he called BS on the guy but that didn't happen Joseph Smith so I thought maybe maybe the Lord allowed him to be killed in Carthage because he was about to lead the people astray but I had to know for sure and I asked myself is possible is there anything else that maybe he lied about and so I went to Deseret but I didn't trust the anti and Mormons I went to desert book and I said essentially give me everything you have ever the church has ever published on the Book of Abraham if it has the word papyrus papaya Book of Abraham or pearl a great price in it I want to buy it and I got a stack of books and flyers and magazines and all sorts of stuff and I was self-employed at the time I basically told my employees I'm taking a little leave of absence I need you to run the company was this bail bonds yeah bill my house I was my father-in-law and I were partners in a bail bond company and it was it was lucrative in Ogden it was all over the state I and that company was my baby I named the the company I had the logo created I answered the phone for every jail but one in the entire state of Utah if you were in jail and you called the company hasn't existed anymore but if you called our company in any jail in Utah but one I was the one that answered the phone and I customer service was my specialty if somebody called me at 3:00 in the morning and they said you know can you get me out of jail I would be pretty much using socks on before I was done in the conversation and be on my way to the jail before we even hung up so I did very very well with it and you know it made a good living and we took a leaf I took leave and I spent what clued you in to the idea that the Book of Abraham may have problems was that dr. shades website or do you know it was this remember I felt like it's it was it was the most recent I mean you know with the exception of the document comments it was the most recent thing that we had that Joseph Smith had translated and and we had the papyrus I mean you know the papyrus was found in the in the what 1966 so we had the translation we had the the original source and I thought this is a good way to test and see if he's if he was telling the truth or if he you know did he lie about anything else right so there are problems with the translation of the Kinderhook plates maybe there were other translation problems okay so you study Book of Abraham and what you find out you have to go in the Book of Abraham because we have all episodes about that what did you you know what did you conclude from your study I I read honestly for 18 hours a day for probably about a week and a half and I I went through those books pretty quick I'm reading Hugh Nibley books and and I realized very quickly into my study of the Book of Abraham that it was a fake I and I actually got very angry and as The Incredible Hulk would say you you don't want to see me when I'm angry I was very angry I felt very deceived I felt duped I thought the evidence is overwhelming nobody I mean you could take the fact the fact similes that are in the Book of Abraham and they're the pearl of great price to this day take them to any Egyptologists in the entire world and show them the translation and ask him is he close I mean I mean is he in the same ballpark he's not even playing the same sport it's to say that his translation was was ridiculous would be an understatement and I quickly realized the word Abraham doesn't even know but no I mean it it's I was shocked I remember thinking to myself oh my god he made it up he made up the Book of Abraham and I just my head was spinning it and I'm like now I know I've really got to dig into this what so the next step was was the doctrine covenants I got a photographic reprint you can buy them online of the original documents in the book of Commandments 1833 and two years later he came out with the Doctrine and Covenants he made a few alterations you know and and so at the 1833 book of Commandments 1835 drachma and covenants and like a 1984 document covenants and I read chapter 1 verse 1 in 1833 1835 and 1984 and I had pins and highlighters and I'm marking these things and marking changes and it's funny people talk about the changes made to the Book of Mormon there's nearly four thousand changes made to the Book of Mormon most of them in my opinion are relatively minor not a lot of doctrinal you know changes the changes to the Book of Mormon dr. King all right the changes to the Book of Mormon rahael in comparison to the changes in the document covenants if the Book of Mormon has 4,000 changes the Doctrine and Covenants if it has less than than 10,000 changes I would be shocked I mean right off the bat like literally in the first couple of verses I'm like wait already he's changing now this isn't something that was translated from reformed Egyptian into English using the gift and power of God this was God talking to Joseph Smith his scribe writing it down I mean how was how was this lost in translation because there is no translation process but the changes were just massive in some case it was an example of a couple measurements I mean the ones the one that stood out the most me was there was a there was a verse that said something to the effect of the Lord telling Joseph Smith that he'll only have one gift and that is the gift to translate the plates and that's it well that is 18 33 now a couple years later Joseph sinking okay I got a I got to do more than just plates you know I mean back then the Mormons attitude was what if you what if he done for us lately and so he knew that I I've got to keep the con going so so he made some significant changes now instead of just being blessed with the gift to translate the plates he was blessed with the gift of Revelation and and many more wonderful prophecy yeah it was it was disturbing in fact I believe it was David Whitmer who wrote a pamphlet called an address to all believers in the Book of Mormon he also wrote another one called an address to all believers in Christ where and I'll paraphrase here he said something to the effect of is there any man who would profess a belief in God that would believe that he would work in such a manner that he would give a revelation and then a couple years later completely reverse the wording and intent of that original revelation if David Whitmer was pissed and and he didn't leave quietly I mean he left the church and he was writing pamphlets and spreading them amongst the members of the church because he felt like Joseph Smith was a fallen prophet he may have been a prophet he may have been inspired to write the book of Mormon or a translate the Book of Mormon but no he's any other changes that made you super upset that you remember well I remember one which is either the original book of Commandments or Doctrine and Covenants are both basically explicitly forbade polygamy they denounced the practice of polygamy and said we have one husband one wife I'm paraphrasing and then we we fast-forward seven or eight years or 100 years or however long it took dnc 132 comes in saying the opposite of what the early I think what struck me the most of the Doctrine and Covenants was this is really although I'd read it before I read it on my mission this is the first time in forever read the Doctrine and Covenants and and not just the dnc but but three different versions of it that I realized there's literally nothing in this that's really prophetic there's there's nothing at all I mean even like his you know people will say Mormons will say oh there's a Civil War prophecy and and my words of advice are you take a closer look at the Civil War prophecy you you read that you look at the history of the Civil War and back in the day when Joseph Smith said that to say that boy man we're on the verge of a war and and if it starts anywhere it's it's it's gonna be it's going to be South Carolina I'm telling you because the people in South Carolina are really getting pissed that'd be like today saying you know one day there will be a nuclear war and when there is North Korea we'll play a hannah it it's like well yeah it was it was common knowledge at the time that that there was a lot of turmoil in the United States regarding slavery and and and and South Carolina was a hotbed of that turmoil but also if if a civil war hadn't have broken out starting in South Carolina it probably would have been taken out of the doctor because well it didn't spread to all nations and I've heard rationalizations people saying but see that's the beginning of all wars that like the people act like before the Civil War there wasn't more anywhere in the world and now it seems like we're there's always some country that's at war and it's just ridiculous there's there's nothing prophetic in the Doctrine and Covenants and I went through that relatively quickly and realized okay well the doctrine communist is worthless but surely maybe maybe maybe the Community of Christ to the reorganized Church maybe they have it right maybe maybe Joseph Smith truly was a prophet maybe he translated the Book of Mormon but then he kind of became a fallen prophet and and maybe I'm just in the wrong branch of Mormonism maybe I should be in the and the reorganized Church of the community of Christ maybe I should be a Strang aight i don't know so i doand to the Book of Mormon and I wanted to know if the Book of Mormon could possibly be a figment of Joseph Smith's imagination like the The Book of Abraham like the Kinderhook plates like the Doctrine and Covenants and and I looked at the Book of Mormon not so much from a a doctrinal point of view III I figured you know how do you test it you know the the Bible says prove all things hold fast that which is good so I decided I'm gonna prove it I'll prove the Book of Mormon either true or not true from a scientific point of view I wanted that to use the scientific method to determine the truthfulness of something and so I looked at everything from a archeology and geology and botany and linguistics every single field of science said this book is not true and and at that point I was a surprise died already you know came to conclusion The Book of Abraham was nonsense the the document Covenants is worthless and then I realized all right Native Americans aren't Jewish immigrants who rode around the planes in horse-drawn chariot Sweeting steal weapons and armor they didn't have domesticated elephants if that's in the book of ether you've got domesticated elephants in the Americas roughly I believe that was supposed to be about 2600 BC it's it's so ridiculous to say that the Native Americans were riding around the planes and horse-drawn chariots I have an analogy I tell people what if I sold you had a book and I said this is Thomas Jefferson's personal journal covering the years 1775 to 1777 and it sits in Thomas Jefferson's handwriting but in the middle of the book he says I told this General Washington that I would drive my Corvette to meet him at McDonald's and and if I couldn't do that I'd just VAX him a copy of the Declaration now now if I if I tried to sell such a journal nobody in the right mind would believe this this was legitimate and that's just three very minor little anachronism I mean come on Corvettes McDonald's fax machines Thomas Jefferson they're really only about a hundred and fifty years out of date right well Native Americans writing around and horse-drawn chariot 2,000 years ago is roughly fifteen hundred years out-of-date domesticated elephants in the Book of Mormon yeah there there are roughly 3,500 years out of date and so it's not like is this one anachronism there there's there's dozens of nakon isms you can't have Native Americans harvesting wheat and barley and having cattle and honeybees it just it was so ridiculous and I literally would call museums I would call because I I still didn't trust those blasted ant I am Mormon so you know and so I I would call like I remember calling the the Denver Museum of Natural History and getting a hold of the the the main curator that the the head honcho at the Denver Museum of Natural History and I asked him a simple question are you familiar with the Book of Mormon and he said I am I said is it even possible that the Native Americans had the steel weapons and wheat and barley and horses and chariots and all that and he said absolutely not it is not just not possible it is preposterous and and he agreed with me that I asked him if there's anybody else any experts in and the subject that might be able to help and he said well by me besides me I could I could give you the names of hundreds of experts in any field of science you want whether it's archeology or linguistics genetics zoology botany well he said there's he said there's all of the evidence says the Book of Mormon isn't true so take that you know for what it's what it's worth and I I didn't just call one guy called multiple museum directors and asked them and they all just kind of immediately scoffed and patted me on the proverbial head and said Oh bless your heart no no not only is it not possible it's it's not even remotely possible and and I knew honestly I knew it wasn't true I just I knew it III tell people now with putting Mormons bear their testimony and they say you know I know the church is true I say well I know it's not and you have your faith and and your feelings to back up your belief that it's true I have literally every single field of science telling me that it's not you in fact that's why I don't believe it because of all the evidence that's not because I went out looking for the evidence because I believe wasn't true it's I believe it was true I went out looking for evidence and and realize it's it's not true not only would I bet my life on it that it's not true I I would and I have but bet the eternal souls of my children on it because when we left the church my wife and I and our kids we didn't you know I mean it was my entire family I left the church when I told my wife I will never forget this we left the house or going out to dinner and I had to say a word to her it had been a week and a half maybe two weeks of mean just reading constantly all day long I mean we're talking literally 18 19 20 hours a week I add a rather I was getting very little sleep and as soon as I woke up I would be reading out I'd be reading while I was laying in bed we're driving down the street and I said to her what would you say if I told you and I and I kind of paused because I knew that once the words came out of my mouth I couldn't take him back and I and I knew what the potential repercussions would be I knew I ending my marriage right there on the spot I said what would you say if I told you that Joseph Smith was a pathological liar and the church isn't true and I didn't even make eye contact with her I'm driving and I'm just and I'm just kind of waiting and I pull up to a stop sign and I stop and I turn in a look at her and she has tears streaming down her face and she says wow why would you say that what what why would you say such a thing and I said because the church isn't true and Joseph Smith was a pathological liar and she screamed and she'd go home you know we're not going to dinner and she was so upset and and we sat down and spent the next three hours I spent the next three hours with all its evidence putting it out in front of her eye it's still and I'm into this day it was that was one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life why are you getting emotional right now cuz I don't talk about that often and it was at the time it was the worst time in my entire life honestly I was born and raised in the church I loved it I lived it and I left it I it rocked her world she she she was very upset I mean she was instantly in tears insisted we go home and I said yeah well we need to go home we have a talk and I spent three hours just showing her everything and she she was like okay you make a compelling you make a compelling case but you know our testimonies I mean I mean we felt the spirit and I I told her about another thing that I think might have been the the deal-breaker for her for me I came to the conclusion the church wasn't true but I was I was like 99.9% sure it wasn't true but you know I'd had these spiritual experiences in my life you know the spirit had told me that it was true and all the evidence said it wasn't and I thought I really wanted to a spiritual confirmation that the church was true as well because I had that the physical proof but I didn't have the spiritual testimony to back it up well to digress just the pinch about two and a half years before this incident in in late 2001 I was diagnosed with with Parkinson's disease and it scared the hell out of me I I realized that you know I'm a you know I mean I saw enough of Michael J Fox to know that's my future and it was very frightening diagnosed by by more than one doctor neurologist and I remember praying constantly at this time and I was standing in the shower I'm gonna say it was October 4th of 2001 and I was praying in the shower and at the time if you know much about Parkinson's he's one of the first things that go is your ballot I had horrible balance absolutely horrible balance I could not stand in the middle of a room and close my eyes without having my hand on something without without falling over relatively quickly as my balance was was just terrible I took medication for I took a pill three times a day and on the morning of October fourth I'm standing in the shower and I'm praying and essentially said in my mind to God I I have come to the conclusion that the church is not true am i right and I want to make a real symbol for God I figured you know Joseph Smith prayed he got an answer to his prayers help God appeared to him I didn't necessarily expect God to show up in my bathroom but I did expect an answer and I I firmly believed the church may not be true but I was convinced there is a God and if there is a God and if he cares all about me he will answer this prayer I was legitimately disappointed when I got out of the shower and did not see a yes or a No written in the steam on the mirror I mean I true that I that's how much faith I had I had so much faith that God will answer my prayer that I knew there will be an answer and I will get it and it will be undeniable and the answer didn't come that day it's kind of disappointed actually I went to bed that night and as I was crawling in the bed I realized I hadn't taken my medicine that day I take it three times a day I hadn't taken it that day and I was tired had been reading all day didn't really give a lot of thought I just like whatever so I got up the next day and it was just habit every day I get up I take a pill and you know usually around lunchtime I take another pill and at nighttime I take another one but the next day October 5th for whatever reason it it just didn't cross my mind to take my pills at the end of that day I remember laying in bed thinking to myself why I didn't take my might man my medicine yesterday I didn't take it today and yet I was having no trimmers under normal circumstances if I if I skipped one pill my wife could usually tell and she would ask me did you take your pill this morning because I would have a tremor in my hand that was it was pretty obvious as long as I took the medication I was okay the tremors were were minimal if at all my balance still sucked but but I didn't have tremors long I took the medication and I didn't take the medicine on the next day or the next day I just stopped taking it and yet the signs that the symptoms of the Parkinson's just disappeared I I told my wife I said by the way because she was you know concerned about the the spiritual aspect of it we got our testimony maybe the evidence says no but our testimonies and I said I have a testimony I asked God I told God point-blank the church isn't true I want an answer am i right am I wrong I said I haven't taken my medicine in two weeks just what do you mean I said I haven't taken my medicine in two weeks and she knew that it's not possible if I hadn't skipped that medicine for two weeks I I would be trimming you know having trimmers like like crazy she actually made me stand up in the middle of the room with my eyes closed I'm like yeah look here I was standing on one foot I'm telling you I said my balance feels like it's back to normal it's it's just gone and to me at the time that was that was an answer to my prayer it was almost like God was saying to me congratulations you've graduated into reality here's a little graduation gift you want a miracle I'll give you a miracle and I took that to this day that was 2001 I have never had any symptoms of Parkinson's disease since October 3rd of 2001 I have had people say well maybe you were misdiagnosed maybe you you know I I don't know III really don't know and I don't care I don't I don't say that I was cured all I know is it's gone and is there a chance I mean one way to think about that is and I you know I once had an experience where I was talking to a friend who was grieving over the fact that he had presided in a State High Council in a disciplinary council where a woman had committed adultery and she was being excommunicated and he was reflecting back on having played a role in her excommunication he was feeling so much guilt and shame that he had taken part in the shaming of this woman that is he retold the story to me in the basement of my Logan house his hand swelled to twice their normal size it was sort of this hive-like reaction to the stress that he was experiencing from the remorse of having taken part in such a dehumanizing experience that's that's why I saw severe physiological reactions to the trauma of a faith crisis or is it possible that those symptoms those tremors were simply physical manifestations of the stress and the anxiety and the distress you were under trying to make sense of everything and that once you arrived at the simple conclusion for you that it just wasn't true that that alleviated the distress that your body was under no I was actually diagnosed a couple of years before we left the church [Music] I you know III don't understand it I I believe in God I still do i yes I identify myself as a deist I believe in and even when I say God I sometimes will put in quotation marks I believe in a higher power I don't think this higher power cares what kind of underwear we wear I don't think this higher power cares whether we give money to a multi-billion dollar corporation or the minister down on the street corner I frankly sometimes I think this higher power is as like a like a like a ten-year-old child with an ant farm that forgets about the ant farm and puts it in his closet I don't necessarily believe that that that God is a loving father in heaven who knows us each individually by name and can and knows how many hairs are on our heads I and ironically I believe that when we die our spirits our souls that the spark of energy that's in a state gives us life goes somewhere and I think when we all die that spark in us that gives us life I think all of those sparks go to the same place and I think that place is God so in an ironic way I think that we become part of God when we die I mean oh people give Mormons a bad time yeah you believe you can become gods I don't think that we can become gods I think we become part of whatever God is so does that mean you feel like God maybe build you from your Parkinson's I do I believe in miracles I I firmly believe in miracles and you know you can define miracles however you want but I I have I have witnessed a miracle myself in my own body and I know I've had people numerous people over the years you probably misdiagnosed it you know what whatever all I know is I had all the signs and symptoms of Parkinson's had tremors every single day for years had to take medication for multiple times a day and and and I didn't intentionally stop it's not like I said you know I'm gonna test God and and it's not taking my medication this is the thought of taking their medication just crock didn't even cross my mind so to conclude this first episode of your interview I just want to say I'm loving it so far that was very powerful I think a lot of people are gonna find what you've shared so far very meaningful I'm gonna ask you to end with a very specific targeted question I don't want you to talk intellectually I don't want you to tell any more stories I want you answer this question emotionally okay I referenced the very beginning of your interview that when I talked to you on the phone and you cried that moved me and you've been brought to tears a couple times just during this hour and a half will you please explain to me emotionally what those tears were about when you talked about how difficult it was to tell your wife that you no longer believe in the church emotionally what do those what comes up for you when those tears started falling what why why do tears come to your mind emotionally as you retell that experience you want to make me cry again ah Mike what are you feeling right now and what are those feelings maintain what are the it's it's recalling the most devastating horrible experience of my entire life I was born and raised in the church and literally knew no different my entire life I was 33 years old and had three kids was very act in the church and and to realize almost overnight I mean it was over the course of a couple of weeks that it wasn't true and my world was spinning and it was to tell my wife that who was also born and raised in the church who comes from an extremely conservative family that the church isn't true I honestly I knew at the time there's a good chance this is going to lead to to our marriage dissolving it was it was the most difficult thing I've ever done in my life to tell my life I couldn't even look her in the eye and literally did not look her in the eye as I told her I was looking straight ahead as I'm driving because I couldn't look her in the eye and tell her everything we know everything that we love it's all a farce it's a fraud Joseph Smith was a charlatan we've been duped we and and and during the course of our three-hour conversation I her we're gonna we're in a cult and and now we've got to do something about it and so the emotions behind those tears just list the emotions right now we're the ones that are experiencing right now it's just I mean sense of loss I felt like I mean I had a friend years ago that lost one of his children and every time he would talk about the loss of his child he would start crying man and at the time I've never lost a child I didn't understand it well I couldn't relate to it I could certainly understand it you lose your child yeah I'm years later he would talk about it need to start crying and and I kind of feel the same way now it was an overwhelming sense of loss that this this church that I knew and I loved that I defended it that I served a mission for that I extended my mission twice everything that I knew to be true was was all a con it was we'd been duped and you felt anger I was extremely angry and anchors of secondary emotion so there must have been overwhelming sense of loss guess so sad very sad I mean I'm not sad now I am elated that we left but thinking back on that and and and turning to the mother of my children and saying something to her that instantly brought her to tears it was it was devastating to me when I discovered it it was devastating to her when I shared it with her and and you know I I told her we now we've got to get out thank you Mike this concludes part 1 of my interview with Mike Norton we're gonna immediately start part 2 but I just want to thank everyone who supported us so far I want to thank those of you have tuned in thank everyone here for being a part of it it's been beautiful and I really look forward to part two so don't go away come right back and join us for part two of our interview with Mike Norton to talk about how he goes from leaving the church to an activist output gently against the church so thanks everybody thanks for tuning in you

Channel: undefined

Views: 77,084

Rating: 4.4776387 out of 5

Keywords: lds, mormon, youtube, faith, doubt, transitions, mike norton, newnamenoah, book of mormon, doctrine and covenants, joseph smith, lds mission, missionary, temple

Id: OO70OQEedUg

Length: 100min 11sec (6011 seconds)

Published: Fri Oct 27 2017

Reddit Comments

[u/YOUREABOT]

It was actually called "Dr. Shades's Mormonism Page," but that's okay. : -)