Mormon Stories #781-782: A Final Evening with Grant Palmer

[Music] Mormon stories podcast is a production of the open stories foundation all donations to Mormon stories are fully tax-deductible and go directly towards keeping the podcast alive and towards building a community of support for Mormons like you come come ye Saints no toil nor labor fee but joy when your way hello everyone and welcome to an evening together with Mormon stories so thank you so much for joining us I want to give everyone a hand it's so fun to be here it's a stormy evening outside but we're really excited to have you here for this special event will Jim and Janice Robinson please stand up so everyone look in the back this is Jim and Janice Robinson they're our hosts for the evening can we please give them a round of applause I was fortunate enough to spend enough time with with Jim and Janice and specifically Janice know the grant Palmer was a very important part of their story is that true do I remember correctly so not only are we grateful that they're our hosts for tonight but I'm grateful that we're bringing them something that hopefully is a value to them personally as well as to the rest of you some of you will remember that we just recently had an evening celebrating grant Palmer how many of you are able to attend that raise your hands and how many of you were able to listen to that online okay a lot of you well why are we doing another event I guess there's two reasons the first reason is can you ever get enough grant Palmer that's fair is that fair fair you can hold on talking of that would you say grant you can definitely get it too much in me hahaha just that's your wife right Zach okay now here tonight all right you need some water here's some water right here for you a second reason is that great has a new book that's out and when I talk to him about it being completed I just thought what a great thing we could do to call everyone's attention to this important book and to have a chance to spend an evening with gran discussing it and and then to record that episode for posterity so I'm hoping how many of you have had a chance to look at the book be honest it's okay alright have you got a chance to read through it I mean you brought some questions for gran no questions that's my job you're saying no please bring your questions um we also want to invite listeners on facebook to post questions as well and we'll try and and get to them as we can but I put out a call for questions and got hundreds so we've got plenty of questions to go on plus I've been I've been reading through this book so I like to get the date these days it is August 9 2017 and we're excited to interview grant Palmer about his book restoring Christ so thanks for joining us quick announcements I guess the bathrooms are behind us so if any of you need to use the restroom it's there I want to thank Amy groves and Sharon for organizing this evening let's give them a round of applause [Music] and all of you for bringing food thank you and Richard holdman for Manning our audio/visual Richard's always been honest and so they keep her too for being here okay so tonight we're going to be talking about the book and we're going to be asking questions to grant if I can be candid and maybe a tiny bit vulnerable many of you will know that grant is has is it liver cancer grant is that right talking to the mic if you can and creati k-- pancreatic cancer all right you get well but grant has pancreatic cancer and has been given weeks two months to live and so that's another reason why we're here and a lot of the questions that have come in are just about his perspectives as he's facing what he believes to be a plum experience on the other side so we'll be be able to talk to him about that as well so thanks for joining us and I guess I'll just say as a final moment of introduction that as I was talking to grant about how to plan this event he called my attention to two chapters in the book that are particular interest and from his perspective represent a bit of breaking new ground in Mormon scholarship for those who are in the Mormon history so they're the final as I recall they're the final two chapters in the book do we have copies of the book here grant we had about eight or nine but they're all gone they're all gone so for those of you who brought your copies the main the beginning of our interview tonight is going to start on page 181 we're going to be talking about Joseph Smith and whether or not maybe he committed treason in this quest for political Empire and some of the new scholarship from this chapter comes from the Council of 50 minutes that were recently released in full is that fair to say grant in the Nauvoo period speaking of my canoodle mind in the novel period it came out this church published it in 2015 and I'd already written an article on this for the John Whitmer Journal but this added about a third to the chapter and it is I was on the right track but this is the church's own words Brigham Young's own words Joseph Smith's own words so in fact I would go so far to say excuse me I don't think you can understand 19th century Mormonism unless you understand what went on in those 17 meetings with Joseph Smith and that another almost two dozen with Brigham Young after before they left navoo if you don't understand that background you can't understand Mormon history in the nineteenth century it's that important you're referring to the Council of 50 meetings yes okay we'll get into that more I'm sure so we're going to get into that chapter and then we're going to talk about this I guess the penultimate chapter in this book the second two lasted that right chapter 19 Joseph Smith's practice practice of concubinage polyandry and polygamy and what grant says is kind of unique about this chapter is he's discussing for the first time what he calls in the chapter the blessing of Jacob is that what you're calling it is that right well yeah I mentioned that Joseph keeps telling people he has the keys of Jacob but remember Jacob was both a polygamist Annika had concubines and even many of our historians as we sit here today they don't they don't understand that Joseph Smith was into concubines they know a little bit quite a bit of polygamy and polyandry but we're going to focus a little more on concubine age because this is dynamite so we'll talk about that and we can also talk about the first half of this book which is dedicated to you know his his thoughts grants thoughts on sort of scuttling the Mormon Jesus but embracing of the Jesus of the Gospels of the New Testament we can talk about that for those who are interested and again we talk about any any personal things as well so please have your questions ready should we dive into the to the treason chapter I'd say so all right so in chapter 18 restoring Christ starting on page 181 Greg gives a little bit of context about the theocratic kingdom that is is being set up through Joseph Smith in the Council of 50 you want to give us some context on this chapter yeah let's talk about that in march of 1844 he organized a iakh theocratic government within the united states government this is an era of states rights they they didn't they like the Constitution but they thought there was room for theocracy within the United States government that's a strange notion to us today isn't it though because there were certainly precedents and the whiskey rebellion under Washington and so forth that it wasn't okay but that's why it finally dawned on them that he eat he organized his Council of 50 men they called him the princes of the kingdom 50 princes of the kingdom and they were setting up cells throughout different areas of the United States and eventually the world to eventually overthrow the US government which Joseph Smith predicted would happen in a very very few short years and we just go back a little bit the first hundred pages of this book is on Jesus and Christianity mainly academic essays some devotional but the last hundred and sixty are 10 chapters on Joseph Smith and Mormonism and like I said the cutting-edge research is in those last two chapters and they represent about 70 pages of the book but anyway to get back to this focus Joseph Smith called this by various names for those of you don't know much about it and you probably don't first of all I'm shocked with the church released these novel minutes they had released a Utah Council of 50 minutes and they go clear up to 1990 1890 that's when this council of 50 was disbanded and Joseph Smith was ordained king of the earth in Brigham Young was ordained king of the earth and John Taylor was ordained king of the earth in 1885 and they had Joseph Smith set it up for two or three purposes one was to get him elected as president of the United States in 1844 the second was that they became disillusioned that they're going to have to get out of out of United States and so this council of 50 sent out exploratory parties to Oregon a California Wisconsin Texas and Salt Lake City in the when the LDS Church came in 1847 they were not part of the United States they'd belonged to Mexico so they were very interested in getting out of Dodge so to speak because they knew they couldn't practice their theocracy in the United States that was became crystal clear as Brigham Young used to say we love the Constitution we just hate the damn rascals as administer it and and that is that you can't understand phrases like John today the kingdom of God or nothing he's not talking about a church he's talking about a political overthrow of the United States government so they called it a living Constitution these Council of 50 men meaning they were they were the government they were they were very bold they sent this to all the rulers in the England they sent one to Queen victorious and the real kingdoms here and you're going to you're on the wrong track Queen Victoria I mean they're very bold and but if you don't understand what's going on here in those first 17 meetings and subsequent 20 meetings before the church left Nauvoo in February 2nd of 46 you cannot understand Mormon history in the nineteenth century it's that important and it still lingers I don't know I want to get in the paper this past week we had a very conservative Republican legislature say I'm tired of the church whispering behind the scenes and not going through the front door like everybody else to get their legislation done this is a throwback to that Council of 50 in the early early state of Deseret when they first came to Utah they had the Council of 50 actually ran things they had public legislators but behind the scenes was the Council of 50 ratifying everything that was passed by the the legislature whenever that was so this has been an ongoing thing and for most of the 19th century you had essentially a one-party system and we still have that and I you know 88% of those utah legislators are LDS and I think half of them received a patriarchal blessing in their teens it said they're going to save the Constitution so they go sign up but there's only 61% of LDS in the state of Utah that that identify themselves as more than half of those are in or inactive so if you take the you take this what the 40% that are not a LDS and you added the 30% honor that's over 70% it's time to I think to try to get the church to go through the front door and have more people run for legislature because the 88% is not representative the state of Utah was that too political you can say whatever you want it's your night yeah I find if I get old it needs to come to an abrupt halt it just it's just been this way for so long and this can be changed and we have the majority to do it if people will just care enough to do it I hope they will alright so if you are on a stream of thought I want you to continue I have a place to start if you want do you is there something else you want to say before well that's just kind of a general opening statement but you really cannot understand Mormon history in the nineteenth century Great Basin Kingdom centered in Salt Lake City unless you understand this Council of 50 it's that important and listen these men I give three examples of how they were trying to overthrow the United States government in this chapter I don't know if anyone's ever done that before but I've got three and we'll get more into the nuts and bolts of what they were trying to do and how they were trying to do it but I lost it no it's okay I think it's probably valuable to start with the Book of Mormon passages that provide the foundation for their thinking upon how they're going to overthrow the government now I've got them here do you want to summarize them or do you want me to read them it's too long to read the passages okay do you want to summarize what basically the Book of Mormon prophesized about Native Americans the Lamanites one of the big things I noticed about Jesus and his in time apocalypse is found in Matthew 24 he says yeah there's going to be great destruction and violence but I'm not responsible for it now go to the Book of Mormon Jesus boy is he he's gleeful almost about sinking 18 cities in 3rd and Aoife 9 and then you jump to chapter 16 20 21 Mormon 5 and you get this little summary I'm going to summarize it it goes like this this is Whitey's land and we're going to help you Native Americans get your land back what we'd like you to do is listen to our missionaries and either join the church or make alliances with the Mormons and when we get enough we're going to declare war on the United States government unless the Gentiles repent they can join us but they're not doing too good a job at that so that is the scriptural basis for this what I didn't know is that Joseph Smith had himself ordained King and he's going to lead the charge and that's what he's doing they are organizing dozens and dozens and dozens of Indian tribes especially in the in the Texas territories from the Arkansas River clear to the Colorado River Choctaws Cherokees Comanches of sax Fox Shawnee quaniee uh dozens dozens and then the idea is that if we can that that Brigham Young it really gets strong about this when Joseph Smith gets killed in his view the Gentiles have rejected the gospel even though they didn't put Joseph and Hyrum to death they consented to it and therefore we have every right to sweep them off the land and destroy them and Brigham Young really did believe that the Indians were capable of overthrowing the United States government along with the church members and so forth Don and Greg can just read a little bit of a quorum passage yes 3rd Nephi says I say it to you this is 35 20 15 through 17 and 20 I say to you that if the Gentiles do not repent Gentiles meaning YT as you call them then ye then shall ye who are remnant of the house of Jacob which is who Native Americans lay nice go forth among them and ye shall be in the midst of them who shall be many and ye shall be among them as a lion among the beasts of the forest and as a young lion among the flocks of sheep who if you go through both treadeth down and tarath in pieces and none can deliver by hand shall we lifted up upon thine adversaries and all that enemies shall be cut off and so the Book of Mormon is basically indoctrinating Brigham Young and others to believe that up looks like the Gentiles haven't repented looks like we need to get the get the Native Americans involved they killed the prophets so they've rejected the message and that's when Brigham Young starts a very aggressive program to make alliances with the Indians and boy they're they're out there it's a vigorous thing and they are surprisingly none of these tribes bought into it they're smarter than and some of a and then you go on to provide quotes from people like parley P Pratt Brigham Young and others where they're clearly trying to implement this this prophecy and they're right out of the Council of 50 minutes that was written by William Clayton journals he had four or five journals the church still will not publish those journals they published the minutes of the Council of 50 which were written by William Clayton Joseph Smith told him to burn those documents but he buried them and that's the reason we still haven't because they dug them up you brought them west and we have those council minutes the miracle is that the church leaders approved their publication I have no idea why they did that so I think the church so whatever article I wrote for John Whitmer in 2012 I was on the right track but this is this is just cemented in their own words in their own minutes they can't run away from it every historian I know is shocked did they approve this but the church employees were trying to get him to do it and they prevailed and they did it I don't know how they did it but I'm glad they did it so so I thought it was interesting the the quotes that you have from General Authorities who are who are sort of speaking about how to implement this this prophecy in 3rd Nephi so for example parley P Pratt writes and not only does this page set the time for the overthrow of our government and all other Gentile governments on the American continent but the way it means of this utter destruction are clearly foretold namely the remnant of Jacob will go through among the Gentiles and tear them in pieces like a lion among the floor cities their forts everything this isn't metaphorical this is real Brigham Young saying the Gentiles have rejected the gospel they have killed the prophets and those who have not taken an active part in the murder all rejoice in it and say Amen to it and that is saying that they are willing the blood of the prophets should be shed the Gentiles are rejected the gospel and we will sweep them out of existence Council of 50 minutes 300 so what's going on there it's kind of violent it's extremely violent and it's not like the Jesus of the four Gospels what is the Jesus of the four Gospels as bless those that curse you this is not what's going on here behavior the radical behavior of the Mormon Jesus in the Book of Mormon is very very different than the Jesus of the four Gospels I have a chapter in here on two different Jesus and boy they are different and but again the cutting-edge research is on this chapter and I've given three examples and I don't know anyone's ever done that so this is cutting-edge research and by the way these 50 men they had a stake in this their princes of the kingdom so you get Lyman white who's an apostle remember the Council of 50 he goes down to Texas and sets up his little kingdom then you have Alphaeus cutler doing the same up in Missouri Kansas and then you have Joseph Smith in Nauvoo and what's the thinking Joseph Smith King but there they have their own little fiefdoms they have their own little kingdom so that when Brigham Young goes west who's reluctant to join Brigham and his Great Basin Kingdom alveus cus of the cuff Cutler and Lyman why because they have a stake where they're at they're their cells they're you're supposed to build those they got the Commission see Joseph's not Brigham and they are going to keep doing what Joseph asked them to do which is that's why they don't join Brigham they end up getting cut off because they don't join Brigham Young's Great Basin theocratic kingdom but the problem of Utah history has always been it's not polygamy that's the that's the outward curve and it's a government within the government and that's what every piece of legislation against the church in the nineteenth century and it all started with cirrhosis Smith in March of 1844 so it is pivotal if you really want to understand Mormon history in the nineteenth century and even today and how they approach chamber getting legislation is still with us I thought essentially you mentioned Lamanites or Native Americans being mentioned as visiting the city of Nauvoo and showing up in relation to these Council of 50 minutes can you just talk about that really briefly well Joseph Smith's having all kinds of powwow is there they're bringing in Cannon and hogsheads of sugar they're bringing ammunition they're getting ready to do this and Wilson law Wilson law is the brother of William William Law who had just been recently released from the First Presidency highest-ranking most important members ever left the first presidency in my view Wilson law is a major general in the Nauvoo Legion and he knows if they pull this off they're going to hang him for treason so he vows out and he and he but they're bringing in Indian tribes nobody knows why by the way if you remember this Council of 50 you know what your punishment was for revealing anything in those meetings beheading some of you'll know what that means from the temple and stop making the signs and penalties back there and they're not you know it's fine we're my friends but this is real the main goal of this Council of 50 they're very confident is to overthrow the United States government in a very sure year a few years and Joseph Smith predicts it's more than once twice won four times but it's it's to find a toehold outside of the United States and also three Gideon elected as president in the United States in 44 and they we won't go into that but these these three examples I think my second example is Althea's cutler up in Missouri Kansas that's where Andrew Jackson sent all it Oh Indians they're all down there and they Church thinks it's fertile ground and they've got them organized to overthrow Fort Leavenworth Kansas is if we can overthrow this in four hours this is a fort you know this Leavenworth Kansas same for today they're ready to go now back on Wilson law minute so Wilson law Joseph Smith was a lieutenant governor he wanted to be the general but because it wasn't a standing army it was a militia this the governor of Illinois even though I had a liberal Charter wouldn't make him a general but right under him was Wilson long and he's the one that ran things and boy he could see the handwriting on the wall and he knew if they executed this he would be hung for treason so he quit he left along with his brother all fits in if it's okay I'm going to read a little bit more from the council fifteen minutes just to talk again about the Indians the Native Americans talk about how Texas plays into this you write on page 191 in March first eighteen forty five minutes Council of fifty member Lewis Dana and on Ida Indian who's reported who reportedly was an interpreter to six tribes and acquainted with nearly all the tribes was appointed to take a small expedition to all the tribes in this vast area especially to Texas Territory Dana was advised to quote call upon the red men to come speedily to the help of the Lord against the mighty Gentile nation let him carry the fire amongst to them and tell them that God has set up his kingdom and that the day of deliverance is at hand Brigham Young predicted quote there are millions of the Lamanites who when they understand the law of God and the design of the gospel are perfectly capable of using up these United States they will walk through them and lay them waste from east to west yeah and by talking about this chapter tonight you know more than 99.9% of the members so you made a represents before but how successful were they had recruiting the the red man so to speak well they the modus operandi was like I said this following summary try to convert them you can convert and make alliances with them and when there's enough latter-day saints and Indian tribes try to move on to their reservations to get a foothold and to influence them to gin them up for overthrowing the government that's what that's the operation and that's what they're doing and the very fact that the the Lamanites didn't didn't join in this had more sense probably prevented the leaders of the early church and being committing treason but my good friend D Benson was in my neighborhood I had him read an earlier chapter he says well they certainly would have spent time in the penitentiary for conspiracy to convince can commit treason and I think they would ever something along those lines he's a chief federal judge I think he's just they rotate that he's not but anyway yeah and I'll just make a quick okay I'll make a quick commentary how many of you remember the Brent Metcalfe interview that I did years ago okay so talked a lot about you know Book of Abraham and Mark Hofman really cool interview well definitely one of the top 10 or 20 Mormon stories interviews ever he made as bright as they get yeah he made a comment that's never really left me when we were talking about the historicity of the Book of Mormon and I was focusing on steel and horses and other sorts of things Brent called to my attention what he feels is one of the most condemning problems with the Book of Mormon and it's that on the title page the book alarm tells you who it's written for and to who is a written for and to laymen inés Lamanites and if you think about this incredibly violent text and plan that's coming out of the council in 50 minutes to the church's credit it shows that Brigham Young and others were reading The Book of Mormon and taking it very literally so if the Book of Mormon is for the Lamanites they're sending missionaries out to the Lamanites and then of course they're trying to recruit the Lamanites to overthrow the government because it's in the Book of Mormon you realize how central the Lamanites the Native Americans were to all of Mormon doctrine yep and then you think about Spencer W Kimball and in my childhood and how he was always he couldn't shut up about the the Lamanites right that's why right because it's what's the purpose of the book Book of Mormon is a keystone of Mormonism if you ignore the core audience for whom it was written and many of the core prophecies that are laid out in it it's worse than that they don't even know what who alignment at laminate is yeah we don't over the early morn I'll ammonite well that's the whole last one we've got to have one for be a foreman of this in city of Temple of Independence I can't even find one and that's and that's sort of like what I'm trying to say is that not only did none of these prophecies come to pass regarding the Lamanites helping overthrow the government which is in the Book of Mormon but now we don't even know who the Lamanites are we don't even talk about the many but it's written for them but it's written for them great insight by Brent by the way yeah so I mean I so just to summarize you're suggesting and you're trying to use cautious language and saying this suggests that maybe Joseph Smith and his his supporters might have committed treason do you want to just summarize point and clinicals office charge I think what prevented them from prevent prevented him as a layman eyes they didn't buy into it but they committed listen in the Aaron Burr trial and what 1800 whatever it was he got off he conspired to commit treason but he didn't commit treason and and and Chief Justice John Marshall which is Jefferson's cousin at the time there wasn't any statues for conspiracy to commit treason either did it or you didn't that's why he got Aaron Berger exoneree but by Zhai recall by the time of what Joseph Smith doing the John Marshall put the conspiracy to commit treason they they would these leaders in the church would have spent time in a penitentiary there's no question about it in my mind and or something along those lines because I'm not a lawyer but D Benson is and that's what he tells me and I believed him all right any any burning questions about counsel 50 minutes come up here you're going to have to ask to the microphone if you want to ask a question so if you want to come form a line right now we'll just ask a couple quick questions yeah that's okay if you want to be hi you mentioned that during the nabu period and the Council of 60 that they were trying to recruit the Indians to overthrow the government you are you suggesting that that was still carried over it when they came to Utah and they were still doing that with the Utah Indians that's a good question I don't I don't have any knowledge of that even though I Western history and Utah history is one of my many focuses in my three studies in history we certainly know that the Mountain Meadows Massacre somehow they were thinking about Indians as being a part of of what they what they did there that's a good question someone needs to write a paper but I don't know they answer them thank you so the the Book of Mormon was written long before Brigham Young and like the passage is that you guys were explaining it well I team 30 if you yeah it's wrote and so the church has some history of doing self-fulfilling prophecies where they're kind of doing that do you think that that's a case of that or what do you think would cause Joseph to write those type of passages within the Book of Mormon you know you have an opinion on that I don't I don't really know why all I know is it's in there in spades it really is you can read chapter 16 chapter 20 chapter 21 Mormon 5 altered defy and it's in there in long long passes is not just a footnote in a phrase this is a integral part of the predictions of what the Book of Mormon is going to is it is it fair to say that you know right now as as Indians have been sort of uh annihilated Native Americans have been annihilated in mass and sort of constricted to their reservations that we all see it as a obvious foregone conclusion that we won but is it possible that in the frontiers of the early 1800s maybe it wasn't so sure how how expansion would have worked and so there would have been a lot of anxiety about will will the settlers survive will the will the Europeans win will the Native Americans win and so that could have been a culture for which people are thinking about you know whitey versus never learn more then and now nobody worries about an uprising from the Indians but back then would that have been on their minds oh yes and so if you combine this idea where the lost ten tribes where the last twelve tribes view of the Hebrews you know all this fascination with the origin of the Native Americans so you've got that you've got that there the pure blood of Israel so you've already got that then you've got them here you add to that worried about who's going to win Native Americans versus the European settlers or how they can be used to win that's Joseph Smith's approach right I don't know I'm just speculating but it would be a good topic for researchers to investigate who knows maybe the late war or some of these other texts or texts we haven't yet discovered can provide some inspiration for why it's xxx had that fascination its 3rd Nephi that's the driver behind all this scripture according to Mormons it's not something you can go this is speculation we can run away from it no this is this is pardoned partly be proud I think goes on to say if this doesn't happen in five years the Book of Mormon isn't even true this is 1838 when you were doing your research grant did you look at inner any intertwining of Smith's comments that he wanted the intermarrying going on to have a pure seed was that intertwined with any of this well that gets into a little more complicated problem in 1831 cybo Peterson Warren Parrish Ezra Booth who's recently joined minister of the to to Mormonism Joseph Smith Oliver Cowdery went down to try to proselyte on the Indian nations down there and they find out you either had to bribe people to get on the tribe or you had to be a relative it's only two ways you could get on so Brigham Young is saying or no Joseph Smith is saying well what do you say it'd be okay for the single man to probably marry the Lamanites it may be how they become a white and delightsome people that's not what the text of the Book of Mormon says and you've done interviews on that recently that have been very offensive to some Lamanites you told me about they thought their skin was going to turn white and using all kinds of letting their hair grow wearing long sleeve shirts because if one woman was so embarrassed that she wasn't turning light and therefore she's a sinner anyway up so Ezard booth he came home and immediately wrote eleven letters he doesn't say one word about marrying the Lamanites thirty years later WWE felt as part of that party literally thirty years later says well Joseph Smith was talking about marrying Lamanites for single men but it wasn't polygamy if you read the caption heading of section 132 it makes it sound this is that like the beginning of polygamy but it wasn't William Booth wrote these letters and he was there and he wrote it contemporary write is contemporary and he doesn't mention anything about polygamy I'd go with him over WWF Phelps saying it was about polygamy thirty years later the church is trying to protect themselves I don't know if that's fully answer say okay and just so just to read the quote from part of you Pratt who's talking about Joseph Smith's prophecy says that there will not be an unbelieving Gentile upon this continent fifty years hence and if they are not greatly scourged and in a great measure overthrown within five or ten years from the state then the Book of Mormon will approve itself false that's the thinking the party through Pratt okay he's an apostle big deal but 3rd Nephi you can't run away from all right thank you for your questions about the Council of fifty it you know if you feel like that was not enough detail by the book check it out check out his sources thanks to the Jill Smith papers project you can read the Council of fifty minutes online you can cross reference grants or citations and investigate this for yourself to prove if it's true or not let's move on to concubinage is that all right he is ready for some concubinage all right so what i think is sort of central to this is give some context about the Old Testament Josef's understanding of it and this notion of the restoration of all things grant do you want to start there that effect well the linchpin of the doctrine is in section 1 and 32 Joseph says he has a report an appointment quote an appointment Therese to restore all things and he says and this includes concubines and plural wives so there's the hook he's on the hook right there then he precedes - I think he starts out with concubines and the concubine it's actually cannot catch up in yes he doesn't totally start with concubines no he starts with a the second interview that I do with Grant on Mormons stories the first was about his book an insider's view of Mormon origins which if you haven't read you need to read the second interview that I did was about sexual allegations against Joseph Smith they really have nothing to do with polygamy or concubines possibly so we you can review can refer to that episode if you want but why don't you give us the one-minute version of the beginning of this chapter which is this is about Joseph Smith problems with sexual allegations well Joseph Smith is accused during a 16 year period by women in five different states I'm making untoward sexual advances towards them and you can say there's no fire there but I wouldn't want to be accused of that by by sixteen or all these women in five states over a 16 year period and then he shifts into high gear and he gets into the he gets into the plural marriage and so forth and so on so this seems to be his MO he's I don't know it just it's just an extraordinary person I guess Adam I mean you know he maybe he had a high libido right so oh we have so lotta we've got all the delegation lots of ambition oh my gosh this man has ambition so that's that it seems like you kind of merged together that that essay that we had discussed previously as into this chapter and that becomes the backdrop and so it sort of goes from Joseph's understanding the Old Testament this idea of a restoration of all things and if Abraham Isaac and Jacob had not only plural wives but also concubines well we've got it we've got to restore all things okay we gotta start all things we have his history of untoward sexual advances and then you've got sort of part three of this book which is from concubine is to polygamy so talk about how he may be in your theory he progresses from concubine is to polygamy well the first thing is is that he called this he has different classes of women it's important to remember and at least two of those classes are concubines and plural wives he calls this his spiritual wife system sometimes it's shortened to spiritual wife ISM sometimes the spiritual library but this is what he's doing and some of the apologists would say all this was all about John C Bennett he started that him and William Smith brother an apostle but they're inaccurate because we know I've got there's a footnote in here you should read it it it's on a second or third page that Joseph Smith uses the term spiritual wife system as does Brigham Young after after William Bennett is excommunicated excommunicated from the church and leaves Davao so we know that it it's part and parcel of what they call it Navajo Helen mark Kimball one of his plural wife says so so does one of the Trinity yeah if you wish Josephus said he received from God quote an appointment to restore all things which included having quote many wives and concubines and quote the term used to describe these two different classes of women was called a spiritual wife system or spiritual wife ISM men IVA tributed the use of this phrase exclusively to the practices of Bennett and others but this is not accurate in 1882 Helen mark Kimball Smith Whitney wrote in that Inaba quote spiritual wife was the title by which every woman who entered into this order was called Emily Partridge wrote that quote spiritual wives is what they called it in those Nauvoo days Joseph Smith himself in 1844 called it a quote spiritual wife system according to the novel City and High Council minutes as did Brigham Young so yeah we can't just lay that on Jhansi Bennett no and they try because they always try to protect Teflon Joseph you know I think it's really important listen there's hardly any historians know about the concubines one of the very very few is Carmen Hardy and he's a dang good historian he says that concubine each receives such a negative such a pejorative term that they just quit talking about concubine that's why nobody knows about him and it's a and and they just he says but he put him in different classes different classes of women and that at least those two maybe polyandrous is the third category I don't know we we're not at the bottom of this yet but I can tell you that most of our historians don't know about this concubinage stuff and they just quit talking about it being concubines and call them all honorable wives and that's the way it went down with Brigham Young but and this is what's going on it starts out as sexual allegations and by the way Joseph Smith said that he did some things that he wasn't very proud of he never says what it is everybody thinks that masturbation or something I don't know but but he but he is what lost that one in in part three of this chapter what you basically do is you list a number of women who you suspect counted as concubines so I'll read their names seven seven women you have Lucinda Morgan Harris definitely a concubine Sarah Pratt concubine mary harron Schneider definitely Melissa Shindell Katherine fuller warren nancy rigdon Sydney Riggins daughter Mary Clift and those are the women is there are there any stories or events of note regarding these seven women that you oh yeah I want either mention or you want me to try and read from you can do that but in Nancy Reagan's case she's 17 year old daughter of the Sidney rig and his counselor and he wants her so bad that he's willing to either marry her as a plural wife or and let her marry anybody else she wants as long as Joseph can have her as a concubine on the side he's given her a choice because I have the sealing power I can do what I want this kind of goes to his head so to speak you're right I got seal I can unseal I can seal you up to eternal life or damnation I think we should say one thing more before you do any reading what another way of looking at this is what's the difference between a concubine and a plural wife first of all there is no command from God in the Old Testament to any prophet or King to ever practice concubinage polyandry or plural marriage this is all Joseph Smith and I I'm just amazed as some of my relatives think oh you're going to be left out nobody there's no profit in the Book of Mormon this as you have to even be married to get to the City of God so why do we think that Joseph Smith is the cat's meow in the last word on this thing you have to be a polygamist to get to the highest degree of the celestial King because of modern revelation yeah but it's irrational to my it just doesn't hold up at all so anyway I wanted but here's another way of approaching this a concubine is not just a mistress okay you could easily fall into that trap what Joseph Smith is doing he's getting a revelation that it's okay to sleep with so-and-so so he has a revelation then he presents the revelation when he gets her consent then they have an ongoing dalliance there's no commitment to these women and the Joseph is not practicing concubinage like Abraham and Jacob did you can read there's there's obligations of Jacob and Abraham towards their pig towards their your concubines not so with Joseph Smith so that's what a concubine is that's not a plural marriage as as established in Navajo in Nauvoo you've got to have you've got to have a ritual you've got to have Joseph Smith priesthood permission you got to have witnesses you got to have a ritual you could have all of these things and it makes it the crowning doctrine of his theology and if you turn me down young lady your whole family will go to hell and if you don't do to accept your whole family is in which to me violates the atonement of the Mormon concept of exaltation so this is a major difference and Sarah Pratt comes along and says well turn to read it yeah she's basically saying and this is through john c bennett which i have to ask you about Smith is reported as saying sister Pratt the Lord has given you to me as one of my spiritual why I have the blessings of Jacob which is codeword for what concubinage granted me spiritual life system is part of the flare wise concubines all part of spiritual wife system different orders of women and I have the blessings of Jacob granted me as God granted holy men of old and as I have long looked upon you with favor and an earnest desire of connubial bliss I hope you will not repulse or deny me connubial bliss anyway you can read those seven examples there but what is important going forward there is that Joseph Smith stands up in Nauvoo in that Grove you've been down just below the temple there's a grove of trees and he tells the saints what his sexual philosophy is and the importance of secrecy he says okay to do this as long as nobody catches you that's that's his that's where he's at and if you don't have any accusers okay then we have contemporary sources by women who talk about this we have light sources and we have contemporary sources and those seven examples show that Joseph Smith is into concubines I think I think he starts out with just sexual allegations and the fairs and maybe concubines and then he morphs into concubines and then he goes into plural wives but as Sarah Pratt says just because and Bennet is not an ideal source you understand it that's not going to ask you is it credible to be using him at all I could see Brighton Hills not liking that very much no in fact Bryan Hales accuses Smith and Sarah Bratton and Bennett having a clandestine affair but there's no evidence for you should stick to anta physiology but but how can you use Bennett as a source what's your thoughts on that well there's so much of it and again it comes through I prayed about this you're the one he says this in seven or eight of these cases it's in italics but it's his philosophy whether it's Bennett's philosophy or not Joseph Smith owns it he endorses it and when they start excommunicating people who are involved in these concubine relationships they're right contemporary sources and they it fits what Joseph Smith is saying they says it's okay as long as you don't have any accusers just what Joseph Smith said in the Grove as recorded by apostle Wilfred Woodruff and in the history of our church let me read that is that okay so this is Wilfred Woodruff's journal history of the church which is based a great deal on a history of the church that source Smith said if we did not accuse one another God would not accuse us so other words if you had sex with someone but there was no accuser no harm no foul if we had no accuser we should enter Heaven he would take us there as his backload if we would not accuse him he would not accuse us and if we would throw a cloak of charity over his sins he would over ours for charity covered a multitude of sins and what many people called sin was not sin and he did many things to break down superstition and he would break it down amazing or did he break it down he bought and owned what Bennett may have started then it was a renegade he was doing this before he came to Nauvoo but Joseph Smith bought and owned the philosophy and that's one of the quotes that establishes that very well I don't think he can run away that quote either one useful thing you do at the end of this chapters you also list a lot of the apologetic tactic which boggles my mind really is to say okay maybe Joseph Smith did have lots of wives but he didn't have sex with all of them or with most of them are only had sex with a few of them and with the polyandrous wives there's no evidence that he had sex that that tactic makes no sense since all post Joseph polygamy involved sex well I would we be insistent that Joseph didn't have sex when every other instance of polygamy that we know sex well it says right in section 132 that the main purposes lega me in this life is to raise up a right to see so if they're not doing it they failed right and what you do is a really helpful part of this chapter at the end is you list at least seven or so instances seven or so wives where Joseph actually did there's good evidence that they actually did well they're under court oath depositions right yeah they're under court oath this isn't a theory folks this is 11 or 12 women that are speaking up I had carnal intercourse with Joseph Smith in my the mansion house and in my father's house and how can you miss it so Helen mark Kimball says it was more than ceremony isn't it nice to euphemisms that they use to describe connubial bliss [Music] talks about Sylvia sessions thinking Josephine was Joseph's daughter why did she think that they make a joke with Eliza our snow that she didn't have sex and Eliza jokes quote I thought you knew Joseph better than that that was the Angus canna me was an LDS take president clueless Melissa lot says that she roomed with and with Smith's wife quote in very deed Almera Johnson says she lived with Joseph as his wife at my house as man and wife you know Eliza Partridge Emma found Joseph secluded upstairs in the mansion house with the Liza Partridge and was much irritated that's probably a little euphemistic as well Emily Partridge said she roomed with and slept with and had quote carnal intercourse Quinn quote with Joseph so I thought so if you want a really quick list of evidences that there actually was getting busy with going on you've got that image and you have to understand that a lot of these women this is the Victorian age they don't like to talk about their sex life but enough of them did we don't know but he had sex with everyone some of these apologists think if he only had sex with ten instead of twenty that he's okay or more righteous on his silly any questions for grants regarding a concubinage of spirits or why furry just come on run I got a speaker microphone I've heard recently that some of the defense of why he didn't was that none of these women ever had any children is that do we know anything about that I think that's pretty much true but I have a little section here on novel abortions and some of its late in some of its contemporary and we it like a page and a half and they're in it see there were so few children that call them spiritual children if you are concubine or a plural life and there's so few in novel and we've wondered why the answer may be abortions but quite frankly we don't have enough evidence to to pin this on Joseph the implications are there but you have to be objective we don't have enough information but there's two or three sources that say they would either send them out of town to have an abortion the doctor Bennet would use drugs and he had a tool it fit an abortion tool of that era and it's described to Sarah Pratt and to Orson Pratt who's an apostle who is disaffected the time and this might be one of the reasons they're so few but we did we haven't got that pin down yet I have to be a more jet objective about that other questions about this chapter please come to the microphone if you don't mind we see mind your own business as a Mormon motto in early Utah if people in Nauvoo had been suspicious that perhaps Joseph had a relationship with someone they knew or maybe that relationship was perhaps even in their home maybe what they were not there or asleep would they be practicing the mind your own business or was at a later development well is so secret you have to understand look Nabu Nabu proper had just about 12,000 people Chicago had in the 1845 census had about 11,000 bigger than Chicago and then you had another 6,000 outside of the city limits in Nauvoo 18,000 people you know how many knew anything about this probably several hundred this is a hush-hush deal so people aren't knowing it items I'm not sure how to answer that question beyond that except you did mind your own business all right I don't know when that started probably before we were long ago just as I was trying to distill my thoughts on the Book of Mormon and Lamanites from brett metcalfe stuff for me as I try and distill this whole polygamy thing and there's a lot of people who know a lot more than me about this a couple things we should all try to keep in mind and you keep me honest up by missing some of the details the first is the Joseph's first plural wife was who loved Annie Alger in cheek knowledge we don't know we don't know for sure but could be she's the first one here an affair or a concubine what I'm saying is we do know this that Fanny Alger comes before the sealing power was actually given to Joseph Smith that's why Joseph Smith in section 132 likes to say that 31 was the beginning of polygamy because even even apologists are saying that he married her between 33 and 35 well there's no sealing power the court is understood by the LDS Church until April 3rd 1836 in the cell like Templar in the in the Nauvoo temple so I know there's no cogent evidence that he's married her I mean she runs off and marries a non-member that's not a plural life to do and then is it am I correct in saying that the Nauvoo polygamy began before section 132 is actually oh yeah that's so we've got nabu polygamy already starting before DN C 132 happens the first documented sealing as far as we know was identified by several sources Sarah Pratt one but others was on April 5th 1841 three months after Sarah Pratt turned down Smith and and then he streamlined his Nabu polygamy and made it the centerpiece of his doctrine and theology by the way what you've learned tonight on this most of our historians don't even know about this it will be coming and the only other thing I was going to say is that then DNC 132 comes it's got all those threats against Emma and where was Emma and the sequence of being sealed to Joseph she's number 21 she finds out that Joseph has 21 wives her and William lob about June of 43 so in what universe would it be okay for Joseph first wife to be the 21st wife's seal to him and he she doesn't even know about unless she caught him and she did catch him several times and does not violate the law of Sarah in D&C 132 that basically requires wife they wheeze a lot of that the law of sarah is that you were supposed to tell your wife but if she rejects it you can do it anyway so it's a cop-out but you put all this together in addition to the early sexual allegations you know I think it kind of completely neglecting just the ethics of women being treated as cattle and and as sort of being a dime-a-dozen to men as property and a part it's not particularly new in there but it's Joseph Smith uses almost any highly questionable message to procure a concubine if you can't get a concubine he'll make your plural life I'll take either one he says whatever works and and my gosh the stratagems he used there's about six pages on that and it just goes on and on he always threatens these will mazes if you turn me down I won't do anything but if you go public I'm going to call you a and boy he does right in the church Nabu newspapers and everywhere else you can think and I've got I think eight documented cases where he's got he's easy you probably know this part of it but he gives him 24 hours he uses the thing well an angel is going to slay me if you don't marry me you wonder if that angel knew anything about the 10 kebab - oh not bear false witness against your neighbor I mean he's breaking the commandments William and Jane losses they were appalled he broke six of the Ten Commandments and I talked about that briefly in there he's using all kinds of stuff in there and there's so much of it even some of these apologists still not answered they'd like to say well Martha brothering Tinley was good friends with the church or something but what do you do about the other seven he's out there calling him nasty names he says they'll believe me over you in the he was right and and when they go to these church courts in Nauvoo in 1842 all these people are tried except William and Joseph Smith the Smith family gets a pass he didn't do anything he's not among them they throw John Bennett under the bus and everyone else but they don't throw the family under the bus all right so I think a final question about polygamy or concubinage do you suppose that Joseph Smith sexual drive has more to do than just as libido and maybe for John is it like an ITV icd-10 code for that as a diagnosis or something like that or is it just a it's called a sexual predator you don't you don't see gee you don't see Jesus doing this kind of stuff in the New Testament he attacks the religious hypocrisy of leaders he's protecting the vulnerable he's not doing this kind of stuff and so Joseph Smith he is he is these revelations from Mormon Jesus and practice by Joseph Smith this is a radical change from the behavior of character and god of the of Jesus in the New Testament they are nothing alike and that's why I say in the preface he's not worth saving the Mormon Jesus we need to call it for what it is and look Joseph Smith writes up all these scriptures call them ancient and we know he gets him right out of his 19th century what kind of guy does that he's marrying or he's he's marrying teenage girls and he's 37 he's he's trashing women who publicly opposed him he's marrying married women he's he he has himself ordained King he's going to go after his enemies he's going to violate overthrow this nation you show me where that's Jesus in the New Testament you can't really find it you can find it in the book of Revelation I have a few things to say about that too all right so if that's okay that concludes our discussion of polygamy concubinage polyandry etc connubial bliss how you doing on time grant you got some more time we're good okay she want to shut it down no I'm you guys can we go a little bit more said okay all right so the next round of questions let's go ahead okay so one of the we have the situation with with elder who mullah yesterday it was announced that a very senior member of the LDS quorum of the seventy former you know one of the leaders in the church history department and recently learned of a head of the correlation committee for the church yesterday was excommunicated or at least it was announced that he's been excommunicated from the church for unspecified reasons except to say that while the church doesn't comment on disciplinary councils they're not only telling us that he's been excommunicated but they're also telling us why he wasn't excommunicated he according to church was not a communicative for matters of apostasy or disaffection which of course leads us all to speculate as to what he was excommunicated for and I'll go on record saying that I think excommunication the practice is barbaric and medieval and revolting and disgusting there's a person we want to stay in like you and I did and they go after you anyway and look at the damage but also the public feeding frenzy of speculation and rumors and innuendo and slander I went through it and I I didn't even do anything that merited that I still got it and it was awful so my my heart and a pen as always will to know go out to the home of an oppressor they punish the people who know right so having said all that one of the chapters that we've referenced in here before it's one of the more popular things that that you've discussed since since an insider's view we did talk about this in my last interview with you was your meeting that you had or your series of meetings that you had with an LDS general authority from 2012 to 2014 so I'm saying all that because probably the most popular question I received for you was was elder mullah that known as a secret general authority now mine doesn't match so we know the answer but go ahead I had eight meetings of this general authority and I wasn't the only one in the room there are four people in that room I'm here tonight but he doesn't want to be identified because he's too close to the general authority and people could figure it out but he had a meeting with eller family today and he did not leave supposedly because he didn't believe but they know each other and he's committed some kind of a maybe a sex crime or some something along those lines and of course he has the backgrounds in my way of thinking that he could defect he's got a degree in philosophy and law and political science and that's that's the humanities and so I you know I'll take I'll take my GES word on that but you know how they do it if they can get you on adultery or some crime they won't say you're disillusioned or apostasy but apparently Nia's case he's not although he was removed I think used the seventy in charge of this correlation correlation for 20 14 15 and 16 an apostle over that but so we'll let that go as it is but that's what they did the Simon southern can you know he defected but they didn't talk about his apostasy talk about his mistake of adultery and they focused on that so I that this really puts a muli in a hole because it he's vulnerable or whatever they say and I wish he would speak out but it doesn't sound like he's going to but I don't know that I hope he does the from from my understandings of how these things often work once you reach a certain level in the church you are entitled to a pension they took that away from it they call it a stipend but it's more than a stipend but are you saying emeritus 70 don't have a retirement they do but they took it away as what my source Rama knew from her Lully a movie lost his retirement you're saying well they call it a stipend I assume it's a retirement you're saying your general authority source claims that who Laviolette he reported today stipend and he doesn't think that Hamoudi has six kids or something he's not rich so they have punished him I don't know if he'll speak out I wish he would my guess is I don't know I I'm not going to guess I just saying what we know and what we don't know but my G if you know I mean by the headed he says he's it's not because he lacked the faith it's some kind of think his wife is giving him a bad time so it's you know it's I'd push these wife's can give you a bad time for a lot of so regarding this general authority source of yours will you will you ever leave record of who that was even know I tried I tried I tried to get him to go on record like a Leonard Aryans and did and put it in my special collection papers interview him and 25 years later open it up he wouldn't even do that they just call him crazy he has no reason to look the church knows who he is let's get real here but as long as he doesn't say anything they're not going to out him what's the advantage if he does there's no advantage at all and this is a high profile he's been an area president temple president the mission president and he was remember the first quorum of 70 he's been around the block he's young the stipend yes because he never squealed okay so that was one of the major questions and again check out restoring christ the book for that chapter and many other good ones let's talk let's let's switch to your you know the first half of this book as you mentioned are writings on Jesus and Christianity pages there's actually more on Joseph Smith Mormon and by the way that's a little bit bothersome on my part that I didn't do all right the title is all about Jesus the back cover statements are largely about Jesus I had a choice to add some stuff that you did and I wish I would have but I didn't have room so people could get the impression this is just a book how to come to Jesus but the the raw edge research chapters are the big ones 160 pages on Joseph Smith and Mormonism owned roughly 104 on Jesus by way by chapter 10 on understanding the atonement I I think that's the best stuff I've ever written on I'm trying to make it reasonable I don't know people buy it but it's as reasonable as I know how to get it how essential is a belief in both the historical Jesus but also a resurrected Jesus and atonement Jesus that bleeds from every pore for our sins for for questioning or doubting or post Mormons that are still considering whether they want Christ to be part of their lives at all how important are those sort of literal aspects well if you Jesus is married to you Testament you know you're a dead duck if you don't believe he's divine I have a more hopeful view 2nd Peter is a very good statement he says now let me tell you who what Jesus represents he has these 9 qualities he lists them he says when you have those qualities inside you you know Jesus Christ so if you come to know him without thinking he's divine and I think it might be from my perspective a little harder to do that but if you do I like to think that he's going to be generous in his grace with those people rather than harsh that's my own personal belief and I don't want to be struck down because that's a decision not mine and and what if somebody says yeah I don't think I can know whether he bled from every pore for my sins or even was resurrected would you still would you still suggest that that Jesus had a role for a doubt of your questioning or even a atheist or agnostic post Mormon and if so what would that role be I'm not sure I understood that John if somebody says I don't think we can know whether Jesus bled from every pore to atone for our sins I don't even know if Jesus existed let alone resurrected from the dead if somebody says to you that stuff's not knowable so if that's a requirement to have Jesus be a part of my life I'm not interested could you respond with a case for why Jesus could be important to someone who's not interested in some of those more our materialistic materialistic claims my answer to that is to try religion gets too many passes on logic and reason and if it's true it's true there's no such thing as a separate set of truths for spiritual things in that but we've fallen into that trap and the religion deserves a lot of the criticism they get maybe my answer would be the turn to chapter 10 and oh I do it in a question answer period and you can get a flavor what I'm trying to do to make the atonement of Christ what part do you over to read which question three because why did the Father will the Jesus be crushed with pain on the cross that's right Adam isaiah 53:10 because it's such a contradiction i have a chapter in there of how I think the God of the Old Testament got a violent reputation I think that's an important chapter myself but I hope the other people do as well but just read that answer that's that's my best effort at trying to make this as reason is logical reason driven to read it now yeah the Epistle to the Hebrews informs us that Jesus learned from what he suffered some kinds of suffering can soften the heart and in Jesus's case it deepened his understanding which perfected his judgment while his suffering is evident during his ministry it was on the cross and in Gethsemane that the father allowed Jesus to experience the collective emotional mental spiritual and physical burdens of humanity this crushing experience changed Jesus and made him who he phileas feel it's it goes beyond the the satisfaction ransom substitution theory and all that which is totally inadequate to me to answer that this goes deeper in my view this is my answer I don't know people are going to buy up it's the best I can do feeling the full measure of human sin disease pain and suffering made Jesus more epithet like forgiving and magnanimous in judging all humankind and to profoundly comprehend the tremendous weight of his responsibility by descending below all things Jesus became Christ a perfect judge that's when it happened he could not have learned this from a book this searing experience was indelibly engraved by the father upon the character of Jesus forever no wonder his final words it is finished were uttered with a loud cry of agony from the cross so what are you saying there I'm saying that that his journey went right up to the very end and that's why I know what you have to read the whole chapter to get the flavor but the next question is well why did he do it why did he willing to suffer and the easy answer is that father asked him to frankly but he pled with tears and crying have that hour pass by meeting one do it but Hebrews 12:2 is a better answer he says I endured the cross because the joy it would bring humanity now there is love from a Christian point of view when did he get these bestow love his authority after he visited the father wouldn't allow Mary to hug him and remember she comes down he says now all in heaven there's been given to me it goes from there we have a listener write in and ask for those who want to use the New Testament to say that homosexuality is against God's law what is your view on that on that position as a Christian I like the way the Pope answered it we're all sinners and let's not castigate certain centers Jesus never said one word about homosexuals that I'm aware of LGBT and it was that kind of stuff was really common in that Roman world they represent your position that being LGBT is a sin is that what you're saying or you saying stop even pursuing that line of inquiry problems das judgey probably stopped it I mean look go to the Book of Leviticus they say leave it ACCA's alone because it's so crazy there's all kinds of crazy things in there you don't like what your children did stone them but what we don't say is that it was the father that had to throw this first stone so there wasn't too many stonings that's important the homosexuals Isis I don't know up I think that the key thing there is if they come this way and I believe they do this isn't a lot learn behavior I don't believe that the church can't really reach out that can me because as soon as they say it's not a sin then they're left high and dry in their arguments in my opinion so if it is a sin I like the way the Pope dealt with it and hey let's fellowship them let's make their contribution we're all sinners we're all in this together let's not go out and isolate but it sounds like you're also opening the possibility that the Bible just gets a lot of things wrong and that could be one of the things it gets wrong well what do they really know about this stuff do they know any more than we do they know less than what we know about and I'm open on that excellent do any of you have questions for grant about Christianity please come up in and form a line if you guys want and I may throw a couple questions in here and there as well my question is about using the New Testament you quoted a lot in that first part of your book how do you reconcile some of the more disturbing things in the New Testament specifically regarding the way women are treated wives are treated the misogyny well you have to understand that nobody who's treated very well in the Roman world I mean only but 3% could even read you're right they're all slaves so it isn't just that women get it it's ninety seven percent of the Roman Empire gets it I don't know if that's a cogent answer or not but so with those passages saying women should say so I own the church you're saying that might not be from God either well Paul has I have a chapter in there who the consensus who wrote these 27 books in the New Testament and there is a difference of view on women and one of them is definitely written by Paul and the other is probably not written by Paul but put in the words of Paul one listener asked can you restore Christ and remain in the restoration so can you remain LDS and restore Christ's or I've got daughters that feel very comfortable in the service of the Mormon Church I'm just asking to change their Jesus if they want to be a Mormon so--but I can't see it but if they want to change your Jesus get a get a better Jesus because we go because we got a better Jesus upgrade your Jesus Jesus through two point three point ours is this is why I emphasize this in the book because 70 percent of the people who leave Mormonism a bid bid and then they don't want anything to do with authoritarian religion so I don't know why they'd want to stay in the the Book of Mormon Jesus is Wow and that's where it really gets down and gritty I don't know why anybody would want to worship that Jesus but anyway many of us do you attend a Christian Church or have you and I know you talked about this in the book especially in the final chapter called what's next is that what it's called where do we go from here we go from here what are you doing you're the narrative of your life burns down wow that's a good one David did you did you attend any Christian churches end of a half a dozen of my I'm sold I don't like guitars and illusions but I found a few that there would be very helpful I really like the community of Christ these men had a burst of integrity and they says we're putting Jesus first and let the chips fall if there's a disagreement between Jesus and Joseph we go with Jesus even though we're restoration heritage and they paid a price for that they lost thousands of members but they've stabilized and they're beginning to grow again and they're very much a Christian Church you don't even have to believe in the Book of Mormon to be a more community of Christ member but I admire them and I like their model but my I have a relationship with Jesus Christ he hasn't disappointed me of heard me say this before but I I think there's several churches you could feel comfortable with Paul Rovia as a South Mountain Church they talked about Jesus a lot Mormons say well so do we well they've never been anywhere else they think they do and and honestly there are congregations the bishop make sure they do and I applaud that so it's not universe but the oldest church just lets Jesus fall through the cracks it's they have such a smorgasbord of concerns and CS Lewis the Lafe Protestant theologian addresses this because they're not focusing on Christ they missing the boat so what the hell is church from from from their perspective they've got all these things they got all these the beauty of their theology and their standard works of the church and they got Education and Welfare and missionary and just all kinds of things and pretty soon Jesus just falls through the cracks one one such person who visits me he finally quit man tidings is I've made a boatload of money and I've given them enough money to build a major luxury house but I'm not giving them anymore because I'm tired of the Jesus fast he says my Ward doesn't talk about Jesus and that's what I want to talk about what are those popular questions we get for you is have you applied the same level of scrutiny to Jesus in the Bible that you've applied to Joseph Smith in the Book of Mormon and Mormonism or did you give Christ and Christianity a pass I don't think so I think it was be true to say I had previously this book but we get into some pretty good issues on this I have a consensus of what most scholars would believe who wrote the 27 books it's not a hundred percent comforting folks but I don't think it's serious enough to throw anything out either I think we're okay how God got a violent reputation in the Bible I think is a very important chapter I'll let the reader decide that when they reach the book but this is your attempt to apply the same intellectual rigor to cry something to Testament that's more so it's it's mainly academic stuff you can remember there are a few devotional pieces in there I admit all these chapters have been written since my two books came out and the incomparable Jesus and the insider but you know good minds Malcolm Muggeridge is up Fabian socialist he came around to Christ at the end of his life brilliant editor punch magazine CS Lewis Thomas Aquinas no dummy so I think it's not that all religious people are inferior intellectually they're not in my view although too many people who run the churches think they get a pass and they don't they shouldn't and they won't for me as I've interviewed you in the past it seemed like your commitment to Christ is largely rooted in spiritual or emotional experiences or witnesses that you've received is that a fair summary except for one experience I had two goes way beyond that but I won't get into that oh the reason I'm a Christian is Jesus says if you if this is his promise if you take upon yourself these nine qualities in Peter Paul John and Jesus all say the same basic list of eight or nine things that my peace will be with you my spirit will be with you I will bring all things to remembrance in your hour of temptation and you will see me my guiding principle in my life I'll be alive in you what I don't understand is why more people don't try the experiment because that's what he said Jesus never ever invited anyone to know him by a religious feeling alone he never ever does that that's so different than Mormon Jesus you know the truth of all things by the Holy Ghost Moroni 10 you don't that at all it's a more of a Pyrrhic approach but you have to make the first step what does that look like so someone's you just Mormon they're leaving the debtor that's why I'm under this one that's why I'm a Christian because it works for me what are the steps a post Mormon would take to find Jesus just high level five steps well I would hope that this Adri read your book by and read your book is step one okay what's step two but to get Jesus to give Jesus a second change yeah yeah in fact well they've thrown out everything yeah so what do they do to build it back give them some just starting points see the difference the most cathartic experience I've had is to compare the Mormon Jesus with the four Gospels Jesus and that has helped me deal with things separate things out so gets another real Jesus you know if the Book of Mormon so if you give Jesus a second chance and you you realize this is what he stands for these eight or nine qualities and then take a little bit of leap of faith step out into the dark and the spotlight will follow you have to make the move it can be a small movement so although your pride and try it it works whereby what you can go to church do you mean renounce every day well what is it well people people uh that come home from their mission they never read the New Testament again pretty soon we'd xored between them and God and they wonder why they're falling away and not believing so read his holy book what are any other steps attend a church I think a church can definitely help I have I'm engaged in out now but there's lots of people that could benefit from so I'm guessing you would just say lives you've got to make a move this is what do you mean make a move I mean you have to step out and have a little bit of faith that he's going to come through on the promises he says I my grace will transform you and help you achieve these qualities if you let me I will become alive in you try the experiment he's very much into experiments not into feelings and it'll live his word you're saying live his word try it you'll like it that in your soul will enlargen with the spirit well at least promised these blessings and His grace will transform you and then he specifically he says look you need to be born again and this is nine qualities is basically born again and when you take when you do that I will become alive in you that's my promise to you as Christians as a Christian I can say it happened I can't tell you what to do I'm just saying maybe swallow a little bit of pride and try the experiment and is there a chapter where those nine qualities are listed yeah on the born-again Saint morning in st. Pete 45 chapter 3 I want to find and I just want to read these off oh they're not there where are they no they're after the Beatitudes look GED village what 45 yeah 29 be diligent in the ministry exercise self-discipline do what is right are these them yeah basically or give others beyond what justice requires be pure in heart and honest to us and others the apiece maker returned good from evil diligence and revealing his father's to by Nature strong faith in God virtuous behavior knowledge of the Scriptures temperance meaning self-control moderation and balance patience with others godliness or goodness brotherly kindness or gentleness enormous charity love and compassion for those Tobias notice Peters say there when these qualities are inside you you know Jesus Christ so pursue those qualities and you Christ will Lilla enlarging your soul that's my experience okay all right that's the recipe all you skeptics out there you now have been served by Grant Palmer do what he says it's in the book chapter three but I am the first admit there's things in the New Testament that don't are not that generous it's not my call it's his but I just like to think in His grace he's going to be more willing than some of our Minnesota for you of some if a Hindu dies never knowing Christ for you there's well I don't know I don't want to get too far out on that I don't know it's his call not mine I just know works for me and but you got to have a little modicum of faith now down in saw like County Jail those men are driven I worked there for 13 years and he walks the halls of the jails and prisons of this world he doesn't just hang out in temples and if they showed that this is what I learned about my boss down there you show that much willingness to change he's there that's what I learned and I couldn't being so judgmental it's shaped Who I am and they're driven to Christ they parents are given they've had they've gone to high school counselors psychiatrists psychologists nothing work that's whether in jail and they're literally driven to seek the mind of Christ as Paul as I and the parents have abandoned them and that's not always a bad idea because as long as I have the crutch they'll use it they have to get really down low and that's when some of them start making with more mature decisions and the problem with that is that they got four or five fires to put out you and I got one or two and they're so obituary that they like to change their habits make it very very hard that's why there are citizens where it is so I okay I want to sort of close by talking about maybe the most sensitive sort of questions of all grant tell us you you joked with me about your complexion when we had lunch recently well what did you basically say about your own complexion my grand thing kids think I look like a yellow neon tube and a prisoner of Treblinka okay what's going on with the with the yellow what is that that goes into the yellow or the liver my doctor and nurse tells me that will continue I'll get more yellow and get weaker and weaker I don't have pain yet the tumor grows tumors are very greedy they demand their share of the food and and is it gets bigger it depends where it grows depend on the pain you go on morphine you go into Coleman you go to sleep that's not too bad and this this strikes close to home for me because my sister Gina was diagnosed with with colon cancer in October and I noticed an ashen complexion then and she was gone in December so it was a two-month sort of time period and my sense is you're on a similar time period is that right yeah they're talking two months they gave me three MOT up to 12 weeks and I've been through five of those weeks so you can figure it out from there I'm okay so so that I've had an over pouring of just love I've been working right up to this day is the Beetlejuice to say and I've repeated this get a little help from your friends and your my friends I had far more friends that I have and this guy right here is a incredible supporter of me incredible he's been there all the way and I appreciate that thank you oh thank you yeah you know when I talk about 2000-2001 your book was really well wonder your 2002 is when your book came out right your book is a really central part of helping us really make sense of what we were reading elsewhere but back to you thank you for that so you're staring death in the face how does that feel how are you experiencing it what are you thinking I don't fear the future I look forward to the adventure I think we're going to learn a lot it's new I like to think in two months I'll be younger and more energy what do you think the other side is going to be like what are you going to be doing over there well every theories speculation wishes I think that there's I think the Mormons are going to need a lot of counseling or so like reverse spear prison with graphite with Grant Palmer is teacher I I read well psychologist - oh maybe you can help out I'm not not enough time see what about there there's one big job because they're going to have major adjustments to find out that this system that they are so sure is true isn't anywhere close and maybe maybe we're all wrong I don't know maybe we're being observed from a maze or something this is all part of I think about that one's going on it's a little problematic so you've been a teacher for most of your life it sounds like you hope to continue teaching I do and I think I'll be a much better teacher I also as we just as we talked outside your front door when I dropped you off when we had lunch this last time you you spoke to me fondly about your your gardening and your and your birds do you have any theories around that or hopes well I think we'll all get a little plot it's like whether Adam Eve or literal or metaphorical as probably whatever doesn't matter no not one say that but even if it isn't if it's metaphorical so be it I'm anyway plot of land I I think it says they dressed and keep tit I like to think that one of the things we're going to focus on is to dress and keep this little plot we're going to be given and there's a great deal of joy in certain things I had I love my flower gardens I don't have energy to take care of them anymore but I had my racing pigeons I had parakeets during the summer I'd take the panels off and it's like the garden of paradise around there you could hear these birds all over the yard and of course I've done seen much of the world in my travels and I really do believe that world is the best book and I like to quote WC Fields the comedian why this life is so difficult it's a wonder anyone gets out of it alive well it sounds like a beautiful vision I hope it comes true for you and man it'd be fun to see on the other side so we will yeah I'm pretty confident about that when's the lunch would Draper probably doesn't want to know miss but he came away from the pastor who introduced this is his it puts me to shame the Palmer really it's it's humility to me that he's so that he doesn't have these problems of whether we live or not now I said this before now this briefly say it again I have a philosophy degree and I can argue with the best of them we don't know for certain but like my friend Richard Russell said he wrote of dust-cover statement he says if it all goes dark I won't know if I'm around I'll be joyous and grateful that's the philosophical or the religious argument I gave in you tonight I've had enough experiences that I I just it just seems natural to me I I just can't believe this is the end of human personality if it is it's such a tremendous waste of time isn't it all right so to conclude I think it would be cool if whoever wants to can come up and give a super brief question or even a brief comment or thank you to grant just to give him a sense for what he's meant to us this has gone on long enough nobody's going to listen to a journal yeah and nobody listens to long podcasts right this is this is short this is a short one what are you talking about actually is yeah I'm yeah anybody want to give some final final thank-you or final comment a note of appreciation of grant just make a little line let's give them a little love as a way to Chloe feel the love you don't need to pour that on I have some beyond my wildest expectations I had no idea this would be the response in literally thousands of emails whatever well get ready for some more because here comes I listen to your podcast together it was the week of the Mayan calendar I believe predicted the end of the world and that was the very night that I was listening to you and I had my shelf and you were the straw that broke that shelf sent me into faith crisis thanks a lot for that I you have to unfreeze people before you refreeze and that's what more ammunition I hear they say you don't have any authority in your churches and apostasy but we have good news we have a restoration the irony is that I so appreciated your view on Christ and I had studied in BYU Jerusalem and had this wonderful academic background to know the the reliability of the Bible so I turn to the Bible more seriously and saw this what you're talking about this comparison between a Mormon concept of Jesus and a biblical view of Jesus I ended up going to another church gave myself to the Lord I my wife and I we have a blended family we're a big Brady Bunch group we have 10 kids we have all come out together and I just wanted to thank you I'm sorry very more than me to start crying and getting emotional but I wanted to thank you my pastor told me that the Gospels so simple you can summarize it in 9 words we're all said we should we're all sinners he is perfect make a trade and I want to thank you for leaving me in that direction just real quickly grant when I first started questioning the church the insider's view of Mormon origins was something I could go to because it was written by an institute director and I'll never forget the confidence I had in in what you wrote and how it impacted me and made me come to to the realization that the church wasn't true and I just wanted what I did you've made a major contribution in your your podcast as well Thank You grand and I enjoyed interviewing you as well but but you had a great impact on me and your book and I felt comfortable going to it because I was reading a Mormon at the time and that meant a lot so thanks [Applause] [Music] this is my cousins and maybe I shouldn't say that that's okay it's not like no grant that I really appreciated our phone calls and really helped me a lot and I will miss you gone I'll cry and I don't cry often when that people leave this earth but I will cry when you leave you I'm worried about myself the closer I get the death I get them getting a little more emotional I'm afraid of me coming to hyster onic we have time for maybe three more I just will also wanted to thank you for having the courage to write an insider's guide to Mormon origins because it was a big it's kind of been my book of Mormon to hand out to people that have come to me the few people that have come to be fit in the ten or so years since we've been out but that was a always a catalyst but also something I felt comfortable and sharing with people that were just on their beginning of the journey and you know like she said when your foundation kind of burns to the ground and I was going to ask you this so maybe it's a question too but do you feel like having that happen we're having things kind of fall apart the belief if you grew up with just now I was extremely Orthodox I'm great uncle Charles a chart whose first karma 70 in the 20s and the teens and my parents were socially friends with Bruce and Amina McConkey Joseph fielding Smith and his wife knew Errol Billy you know I mean I was true-blue our mission led the world 1962 and convert baptisms and I was very much a part of it I was one of these missionaries that came home I didn't have here in my ears two weeks later I was I went into CESI I was serious about this well everyone and I I felt like you know my life is so much better since even though everything came crashing down things have become so much fried known almost everybody says that and I'm the Mormons can't believe that but it's it's the testimony of most the people I hear about so thank you for that and for your help and you may have been asked this question before but I'm wondering if because of the amount of research that you've done and the background that you have I'm wondering if you can give us kind of an idea of what you see the next 15 20 years of Mormonism being well I think John's got a better answer to that he's the one that interviews all these people and John is doing a great service he's documenting what's going on in people's lives this will become a very important and already has historical record and you need to know that and support him for this reason alone now as for the crystal ball stuff I like to think that Mikhail Gorbachev come up through the ranks of the KGB and as he stepped up the mountain saw that they were becoming a third world country that he made some changes tonight whoever's in charge in 15 to 20 years from now when the Church of when it's no longer to their advantage when there's a tipping point and this is going through every family and church like diarrhea and it's in the trenches they just know about it that it it's not all you've heard about this they they seem to know that when they realize that it's maybe in their best interest to get past this and be open and they're there and I know that according to my general authority president uchtdorf is trying to lead the church out of this mess but he's a junior apostle and I don't have a crystal ball but I think that they're they're growing in certain parts of Africa Asia Europe even in the United States they're losing market share but I like to think that they will eventually not only allow the true history to be written in a more definitive manner but I think they ought to do with the our LDS Church is done and I advocated that in the beginning move to Christ and quit talking about all the glories of Mormonism and Joseph Smith I don't they had so much more money and members that they're not willing to do that are they like community of Christ the Cheney of Christ in my opinion made the right decision on this and they did it with a burst of integrity and I admire that I really do I think you should chime in on that question is that a command yeah well nobody knows uh you know this is a non satisfactory answer but I saw one of the best movies I've seen in the past decade is called spotlight how many of you have not seen spotlight every not I mean you've seen it okay ghostly spotlight if you haven't seen it and what it shows is that religion is incredibly resilient because if you can have systemic pedophilia where a very large percentage of your entire ecclesiastical force is systematically not only sexually abusing children but also covering it up and perpetuating it across multiple decades across multiple continents and if your church can do that and your church can continue to grow and thrive what that means is the religion is very resilient very how many of you have not seen going clear okay go see it and what you'll see there is that Scientology the buildings are empty but Scientology has more money than it's ever had because it realized that once it got a bunch of money if you remember the quote from l ron Hubbard if you want to get rich start a business if you want to get really rich sort of religion so once they obtained all that money now they're just investing it and Scientology is diminishing in terms of membership but they're growing in terms of their wealth and their power and our church is taking same pages out of the same playbook I just saw announced recently that the church is buying another billion plus dollar investment in in Texas and the commercial real estate investments continue to thrive the to finance the third world missionary Labor's I suppose and you know the church owns 2% of Florida etc so the church is probably going to get richer it's sinking in it and it's what Florida [Laughter] but I don't think that the LDS Church is going to disappear anytime soon I think it's going to plenty of continued slowing in its growth it's going to top out and I think within 30 or 40 years we'll start to see a decline in in membership in the developed world I think it'll continue investing in the third world and they'll be able to do a numbers game where we grow in the third world while we're shrinking in the US and and in Western Europe and in parts of Asia but but to be honest I don't think the church is going anywhere I do think that you can if there's one thing that's reliable about the church is that it's 30 years behind the rest of the developed world in social progress so we will make progress with women and with LGBT people it will just be about 30 years from now long after everybody else is sort of mass adopted any progress many churches don't die they change yeah going to survive so more little invested well valid I've honestly they're just waiting for enough old people to die out so that the pain of making a change is diminished and they'll counter that with trying to save the younger generations so I'm not draconian in my predictions about the church I do think it's continuing to lose it's a most thoughtful right forms educated right as wealthiest best and brightest as Marlin Jensen that will continue to happen the brain drain the integrity drain and losing that's good for me because turns out those are my favorite people in the world are people who needs to be Mormon and now they're not and they're fun to hang out with there's already a lot of doctors who stay and think they had a lot of prestige being a doctor in the ward but the brain drain is well on the teachers the speaker's the thinkers they're leaving yeah the analyticals well I'm super happy about organizations like waka and you know Oasis and a lot of cool Facebook communities I'm just so thrilled to see post Mormons and other ex religious people finding dear friendships finding community and learning how to thrive where Mormonism is largely just in the rearview mirror and that's I see that as a growing industry of beautiful people making dear friendships and having a lot of fun together and that's the projection that I want to leave you with if I'm going to leave you with the projection and I think you know I have different religious and political views in my family but my family's pretty open and mature and we've transcended it with love and I hope you have that gift because there can be some nasty relationships between sisters and parents and I'm fortunate to be leaving and that's not a problem if anyone has a read strong view as to what they think is going to happen in 25 years I'd like to hear it entry of time you're the boss I like Richard Bushman Reid and I reported this in a Sunstone session last year last evening last vehicle that the Mormon Church cannot sustain its current narrative boy that says volumes so they've got the morph if they're going to live and he's their top apologists and I think he's right on the money he backed off of that but he said it and it's true a little bit if you want to have anything at what they thought the speculation yeah what what are you worthy where we were things going into 23rd I'll keep it brief I don't really have much say but I think with the thought of truth being independent of belief and indifferent to the amount of people who believe in it I and knowing and with the idea that truth is difficult to obtain but not but much more difficult to unobtainium anity so well and we got up to now I'm seeing the truthful advance nobly and bravely until it's penetrated every continent so just say alright NID and if you're willing to what truth is a higher virtue than loyalty tradition tradition you're vulnerable to leave you are vulnerable to leave I think I told you this grant couple days ago last week I did it to or through the new MTC in Provo and I was shocked when I got through is it's basically devoid of restoration first vision pretty much Joseph Smith golden plates it's very Christ centered in the paintings and I don't know if the missionary discussions have changed equally but the video that they showed people that toured had nothing about the first vision or golden plates or anything with the restoration and as a missionary from 36 years ago I was I was actually shocked so I think they will adapt I the journalists I cover the church and I think they're very slow and hard to hard to change but so I can eat Olivia organism they want to live and survive so but I was shocked with what the new MTC had in at least parts they showed us thanks thanks for those comments thank you for coming and I appreciate it our pleasure and lots and lots of love sent to you from from those out on the internet and I'll just read a final couple final things mindy writes thank him for me I appreciate all his efforts and I've always enjoyed his style of writing may he rest in peace always when his time draws ever closer she says great family his son is our bishopric amazing son he raised so there's a for some of yours or the docs I got one in the bishopric one just released his bishop in one well my daughter's husband just released and the other one is releases release addy present so they're quite devout except for my son here his wife ever seen the light Eliza writes thank you for being authentic and sharing the quest and then I'll end with Michelle's thank you and then I'll ask you all to join me in a round of applause for grant as we close with with this one comment from Michelle no it's not from Michelle it is just one second I had a really good thank you to close with oh my goodness that's anticlimactic give me one more second here I thought there was a really good comment end with oh there it is please thank grant profusely for all that he's done words can't express how much he's helped us so I wanted to end with that thank you and would you please join me in giving grant our thanks for all he's given us [Applause] thank you for joining us today on Mormon stories podcast to keep this podcast alive please consider a tax-deductible donation today by becoming a monthly subscriber at Mormon stories org audio and video for this podcast were provided by Richard holdman a big thanks to the sabre Rattlers for providing the music for today's episode the more Missouri's logo was generously donated by studio case Kham Kham Kham you thanks no toil or labor thing but is your when your way

Channel: undefined

Views: 25,265

Rating: 4.5309448 out of 5

Keywords: lds, mormon, joseph smith, polygamy, polyandry, concubines, treason, grant palmer

Id: IYzt3eFxakU

Length: 133min 6sec (7986 seconds)

Published: Mon Aug 14 2017