Monarch 10EE 7000 Dollar Mistake: Figuring out it's Problems...

hi folks welcome back this was a seven thousand dollar mistake um today's video i'm going to take you through it i've turned it around and got power to it so we can see what's wrong with it and why i probably would have never bought it in the first place the back story five years ago a friend of mine purchased this online sight unseen from an auction he bought it rented the truck rented the trailer came to houston picked it up and brought it over to my shop where we were going to have a scraping class he wanted to check it out make sure everything was okay before he took it home to austin i was pretty busy during streaking class i usually playing a lot of straight edges for the students and i was not really paying attention to what was going on with this i ran them some power over to it and over the course of about four days i saw some pretty sad faces i kind of got interested then and went over and looked at it this is a monarch 10 ee arguably the most finest precise tool room lays ever made you still buy a new one today i think they're 168 000 and it's probably better called a remanufactured by monarch they go around looking for good casing or castings because they just don't cast them anymore and then they bring it all back to factory specs and there are some doozy of factory specs this isn't a south bend this isn't the old clapped out lathe you find just about everywhere nowadays this machine i i forget the run out and i may be wrong but it sticks in my head that 50 millionths run out on the spindle i have to look it up but i it's what i remember precision bearings in the head the bearing for the front alone cost twenty eight hundred dollars and it's got fifteen hundred dollars worth of bearings in the back of the spindle this was a world-class machine notice i said was this is a little bit more rare than normal this is also an inch metric machine which just by changing some of the levers here you can cut either metric or inch threads i want to go around and show you kind of what we found and what it's going to take to get this back to where close to where it was it'll never be the same because frankly it would take me years to make it the same and i doubt if i could i bought this from the current owner and tried to pay him as much money as i could for it i am selling the blue lathe that we were going to remove the spindle from and put in this one i'm probably not going to part it out there's a young man that i've been kind of mentoring a little bit and he knows full well the dangers of that lathe and that it's not it's too easy to go in reverse but with my help he's willing to give it a shot at restoring it which i think that'd be great now let's go over some of the problems that we found this lathe first off let's start with the headstock now the headstock gives this portion up here this is a chuck guard that i believe is original monarch kind of got some screws out of it that's easy to fix it's got a bracket that is cast and fits perfectly on these ways i believe that came from the factory this is a d13 spindle has little locks right here that lock a uh either a collet chuck or a regular chuck to the nose in fact here is a collet chuck that goes in here and then you take a collet wrench or a chuck wrench and you tighten up these screws these are little cams that go around there's three of them about 20 inch axles and lathe has a d8 which has eight studs sticking out and then this is a collet spindle for c5 problem is this machine has been crashed and crashed badly um we took this collet spindle off our excuse call it i could see better see where the lines are it looks like it got a little line there that lines up on the top of it for the unlock position that comes off andy put a test bar in that collet and started turning it and found that something was wrong real wrong this spindle has been re-ground in sight they put a spindle on a grinder on here and they re ground the outside of this the reason i know they did was because the inside they didn't touch and if you put an indicator on the inside this is out of round by two thousandths of the this is dead on accurate the problem is when they ground this to make it accurate they shorten the nose and thus the taper and so none of the jaws or none of the chucks will fit on here right and they wobble to get over that they put some lead tape in there and cranked it down as hard as they could but it was still really out of kilter when you measured it the reason it's like this is because somebody was running the along and not minding what they were doing and they crashed a work piece or a chuck or something into the cross slide and the reason i know they knocked it into the cross side is because this is a piece of base on that and i don't know if you can see i'll try in here it gets you some light on right there there's a crack and it goes down underneath that bed and comes out over here they hit that cross side so hard it broke off that delt dovetail it's still there but it's not connected to the rest of it and you can even feel how it ramps up when you go up there we've got to fix this and i'm of two minds right now because it's such a small total area i think i'm going to gouge this out and go back up underneath there and over here and tig weld it with some easy tig weld rod that i found now i love that rod you don't have to preheat or anything or control the heating afterwards some great stuff but because this is just this one area i'm hopeful that i can weld that back together then grind it back down to where it works otherwise i'm going to have to get a piece of drawer bar and just make a whole new base so i'm going to give the welding a shot there you can see when they were working on it we pulled off all of this mechanism so that we could see what was going on we also scraped the bed of the vise and used it as a measuring platform along with a kingway to determine the wear on the bed now remember this is a precision precision bed flame hardened ground this is a newer model this is a baby in monarch terms this is a 1990 born in 10th month of 1990 most of the ones you see are 45s 40s 50s 60s this is kind of unique it's got some water on it right here on the flats there is minus seven thousandth down here is minus five thousandths over here it's zero and over here it's three thousandths so i don't know how big of a problem is and i haven't seen the underside of the carriage but i suspect it's worn too now these are some of the gears a little backlash in this not a whole bunch there's not much you can do about it because it's geared gear small gear driving this gear this is a kind of an oil filter that's all clogged up and there's trash and stuff in there this is going to have to come off just it's this far along i'm just going to take it on off and when i do i'm got a crazy idea to grind this bed in place now the bed stops right in here can you are you watching here come on get back here now the the bed starts right in here and goes to there and you have to take off the head stock and you have to do all this stuff [Music] then it has to be ground well i'm set up for planing and i don't think grind my planter's gonna touch this surface easily and nicely you know we're only talking taking off maybe seven thousands so i have a grinding spindle and i'm thinking of a way to make it perfect out here without going through the mess of taking everything apart will it work who the heck knows i'll give it a shot now this is the business end of the drive system i've taken off the the two covers here in fact i've taken the covers off the whole machine so we can look at it good this machine has a five horsepower dc motor that's buried behind this gearbox this gearbox has a high and low range and you shift it from up here and it's called belt drive and then called back your drive the output of all of this goes through this big toy and it's almost a one to one ratio this is a little bit smaller this is a 3500 rpm motor driving this delay that has a speed of 4000 rpm as you can imagine that's fast for a manual lathe it has two v-belts matched v-belts that come from the bottom pulley down here go around the top pulley they have two idler belts right here and these have aluminum they're made of aluminum on the outside and they have a little bit of wear in them so we're going to be pulling that off and i'm going to put these on the lathe and true that surface back up so it doesn't wear in anymore the whole thing about this lathe is getting rid of vibration so they designed it so you could have an almost flawless surface finish by using all the technology that they had and this technology is still great today this is another idler that goes for this back drive belt this drive belt drives the gearbox so you got three belts two matched v-belts and a one-inch flat belt for the gearbox this is the oiler for the gearbox you can put oil in here it's got a sight glass around the front now this gearbox has a you add oil on the top and then it has a side glass down the bottom well whenever you buy an old machine you're kind of stuck in that you don't know the history on that machine i don't know if this gearbox has the correct oil in it and i don't know if this gearbox has the right amount of oil because can't see through the site window down there luckily this site window is also the drain for the the oil so i'm going to put a wrench on it and pull it out and drain this unit so i can put the correct amount of the right oil in it same with the head same way with the gearbox who knows what they put in it you know this was a corporation owned this machine and unfortunately people are involved that don't own the machine and they just ah this will work and they throw what in what they think can be okay and they may have done the right oil i don't know that's the problem i don't know so i've gone through and just till we tear it down have filled the spindle box and the gearbox with the correct oil the apron is not connected we'll get to that later so i the only thing i need to do now is drain the oil out of here and replace it so that's the end of the the drive section this is a little break so that it can lock the spindle so you can change um chucks and things on it down there and it's got an electrical interconnect there's also another electrical interconnect right in here that's hidden behind this uh slide for the idler pulley and it is a interlock that pro protects the gear tray from going into back gear if the machine is turning over 200 rpms i don't know where it's getting its input for how fast it's going but i did find that that's not working and that plunger sticking out will inhibit you from going into back gear so more on that later i mentioned earlier that this machine has a bent spindle and several viewers say oh it doesn't have a bent spindle all i know is this was all ground off so it's made the spindle useless to me it needs a new spindle so you can put on chucks properly and if i ever want to put a collet closer through it this id is two thousandths off so it's got to be fixed or it's useless the other problem is remember i said this was probably the most accurate tool room lathe ever made and it's because of the relationship of the drive and the spindle and and the bed but the spindle uses some really expensive bearings right in here and if this got hit hard enough to bend the spindle break the tails of the uh cross feed dovetail and mess up other parts in that cross feed it took a heck of a blow to the bearings there's two of them right here they're 2 800 dollars for them you can't buy them anywhere but monarch uh they're custom made for them some people have over the years had some made but i can't find any of those anyway to me this whole spindle needs to come out even if it's just because the taper's messed up on this end so i've been investigating that this i'll show you the inside it's got a little brass funnel under the oil field so when you pour oil into it it funnels it out let's see if we can get closer now it's pretty simple the spindle goes all the way through this cavity and it holds up this gear this gear a shifting fork another gear up here for the tachometer and then there's a nut right here that you tighten up the bearings that are situated inside this housing i have to make a new gasket the back bearings are in this guy this housing back here and you can see that it has oil lines running everywhere so we then go outside there's another like a there's another sprocket maybe it's a good word that engages the pin on this lock then you have this double belt and then you get on down here in the spindle lock to get this out this lock will come off unscrew this take the belts off loosen up all the pulleys inside and pull it out the nose loosen six bolts here and then the whole cartridge and spindle comes out this way any questions i have tons of them okay to recap i highly suspect these bearings took one heck of a wallop they're really precision bearings and if you hit the spindle this hard i find it hard to believe that those bearings didn't take a heck of a hit too this is no good got lots of work to do on the cross feed and now let's get to the other problems if you remember this basic lathe has been in production since 1939. still buy one today we got 000 now the same basic casting has been around all this time in the stuffed electronics or electrics for the old motor generators down in all these compartments it's very well thought out this compartment on this machine is totally empty you put a beer keg or something in there this compartment is also totally empty except for one little strip this compartment holds the motor and on the 1941 10es that little hole down here on the bottom compartment well you can't see that little compartment just below that red tag holds a whole bunch of electrics and there's a big dc motor put in there that you gotta adjust the brushes and everything this ain't one of them this is one of the more modern designs sorry for the extra noise i had to turn on the phase converter this machine is a modular machine it's one of the latest drive systems they made and it's much different from like a model or any of the works in the drawers they call them works in the drawers because everything was down in one of those compartments and you just open it up and it came out on a little door this has none of that this has a big green cabinet on the back it's got a pump which is located in this back cavern as opposed to the 1940 or 54 model that i have that's on the side in the back this is a rheostat to control your reverse speed this is a for the pump let me turn on the power this is for the pump well first you gotta hit the on pump works i don't know if it's pumping but it turns on this is a stop button and this is the button you push to start the electronics in motion now this machine has a dial that goes up to 4 000 rpms and it supposed to be able to do 4 000 rpm as it came from the factory i'm going to turn it on and put it in ford gear and show you what's going on [Music] first i'm going to put the oil back on because it's a pumping [Music] which is a good sign but when the top's off it doesn't work too good okay [Music] [Applause] see how long it took to spin up right now it's doing about 600 rpms speed control still works on it that's in maximum [Music] wait a minute this is supposed to be over here then watch this watch how fast it breaks that was pretty anemic it's like it has almost no breaking at all now this is a dc drive motor that is a four quadrant and it can go just as fast in reverse as forward and the braking on a properly functional one is almost instantaneous something's wrong this is only going 1400 rpms it should be doing 4 000. it doesn't have any breaking and it's just weak as i'll get out starting it up so what do you do you start digging and that's where we found the last bit of the 7 000 mistake now this is a modular control box for this machine all the electronics are in this machine back here it's got a door interlock has come down to be open i'm going to use a little camera so i can get in here and show you what's going to see it's not pretty this there's the control panel for this machine these are big breakers that will not turn on the machine if the doors open because of this interlock right there a contactor up there another set of three phase the crappiest wiring job i've seen heck my grandmother could do better than this she's been dead 30 years controlled wires run with the main lines go into the motor there's only one place i even see any shielded cables somebody's been in here these are two big transformers that the incoming power which is 480 right now is transformed down to 120 volts on each one and then they combine the 120 volt output of each to make 240 goes through that little fuse box and up into this board now there's also another 480 to 120 transformer that is providing the control voltage for the machine you know what the problem is have you seen it yet there it is that drive has been put in place it's made by baldor but it's a rebadged k and b board in there so it's made by kmb and whoever thought that this would work in this machine was sadly mistaken this board cannot control the field of the dc motor it has outputs for field you can go half which should be 2 120 and you can go full which would be 240 but it doesn't control the board it just is there so what has to happen this has to come out and the proper one put in its place i can't afford a proper one from monarch so another gentleman and i along with don who may not look like it but he's an electronic engineer i'm going to be working on a new drive for this machine and i'm going to clean up this mess the drive may cost three thousand dollars for this thing hopefully we can get by with some used parts but that's another reason this is a seven thousand dollar mistake with the back end of the machine i've taken all the compartments loose it's got some chips down there this is the back end of the dc motor now on the 1954 motor out there it's got a ac motor with a blower and a generator on this end all designed to power that motor this motor it's just been taken care of by the electronics while we're back here one time this had a digital readout on it dro i don't know if i'll ever put one on there i don't need one well you can see now what problems i'm facing resurrecting this lathe and you can see why i call it the seven thousand dollar mistake should have never been purchased for that amount of money but that's what happens at an auction and you know people look at things and they say hey i like that one a 1990 tinney wow it must be great well unfortunately these things come from a manufacturing or tour room where not everyone takes good care of them and this one would be doomed mainly because of the spindle and the drive the drive is going to cost a lot of money to fix and there's just no way around that the spindle if i had to buy a spindle for it and the bearings especially i i just couldn't see it luckily one of the viewers terry from british columbia was very generous and just happened to have this sitting on a shelf i've been working on this today cleaning it up this is a 10 ee spindle i'm not really sure what your model it came out but judging from what i see everything's the same on there now this is the front section that you jack out and and the spindle comes out this way out of the nose this is a bearing race and here's another race this is the special flange bearing that's got a flange on it 2800 for those two pieces this is a separator and then this uh nut which on this one both of the set screws are out so i don't know if they've taken it out for what reason uh that's how you set your preload on the spindle so we're gonna have to rob parts off of that one for here for locking it and also one of the cam locks is worn out and so we'll take out the cam locks of that one and see if they're any better i mean this part of that other spindle is shot so hopefully this one fits in there i'll take up this cast iron and then re-scrape it and grind it get it back to the normal shape and uh got a few extra things in case there's a problem in there that's the tachometer gear [Music] i spent a while polishing it up and buffing it and cleaning it today guys i really really really love these little milwaukee fuels a friend of mine down in south houston turned me onto this for this i just use a lambswool buffer and believe me they make all kinds of accessories uh different pads and things for these things it's my drawer we all aren't even looking in the right place that's my drawer of different pads and things you can use anywhere from really fine sandpaper to the felt wheels which is what i used on that on up just really aggressive pads you don't have one get one those are great you got a little drill adapter and they've got a quarter that's all i have for right now i'm going to be filming everything i do for this i kind of wish it would just run but none of the machines i ever get just run so i'm used to that we'll clean it up i tried a little bit around these plaques these are some nice plaques maybe we'll get old don to put the black around them again and shine them up the paint on this thing isn't the worst i've ever seen but this isn't going to be a full tear down and restore around here it's like the old cowboy saying get her done most of the machines that come into my place i make sure they work mechanically i can live with the surface not being perfect up here i don't like it but it takes a lot of time and when i get more time from being retired then we can do stuff like that but right now i need this baby to work because i got a whole garage full of machines that we got to fix thanks for watching and thanks again terry i think it's going to work i'll pull it tonight and we'll see

Channel: Steve Watkins at Work

Views: 34,022

Keywords: Monarch 10ee, Machine Shop, Restoring old machines

Id: I-fsppDRBsc

Length: 39min 57sec (2397 seconds)

Published: Tue Mar 01 2022