Modi’s a Dictator & His Return Would be a Disaster: Finance Minister’s Husband, Parakala Prabhakar

is he a dictator or not now yes of course he is he is he's not a Democrat he he doesn't bother about the parliament he doesn't bother about Center State relationss he doesn't bother about the office of the uh president of India he doesn't bother about uh anybody in the in the in the in the government and you know he he he can he can he is no more what he used to be in 2014 A Team India which is prime minister and the chief ministers it is your answer to my question is Narendra Modi a dictator was of course he's a dictator yes he has set India back in terms of economy at least 20 years to 25 years in terms of polity at least he has taken us back to pre-independence St in terms of social Fabric and you know scientific temper and the values of the Society of secularism of you know India belonging to everybody he has taken us back to the days of 1818 or even before that or even to the Middle Ages a return to power of this present government with this kind of a narrative with this kind of a track record current it would spell disaster hi I'm Karan taper over the last few years I hope you've been watching my program the interview on The Wire during that period I've interviewed doctors politicians businessmen scientists authors and even the occasional Noble Laurette for me it's been exciting I hope it's been enjoyable for you but these as you know are tough times and if this program is going to remain bold independent and sometimes even defiant then I think we need your support at the end of the day it's a truism but editorial Independence is best defended by the viewers so if you would like this program to remain the way it is forthright outspoken and interesting then would you consider supporting us all you have to do is to click on the description at the bottom but more than anything else I hope you will continue to watch the interview your viewership means an awful lot to me hello and welcome to a special interview for the wire could Narendra Modi end up losing the forthcoming elections and if the answer is yes what is the explanation on the other hand could Narendra Modi also end up with with a sweeping majority if the answer is yes what would be the likely impact on India's Politics as well as its democracy those are the key issues I should explore today with the well-known author Economist and commentator parakala praka Dr parakala is also the husband of Finance Minister nirmala sitaraman Dr parakala whil Narendra Modi Bo that the BJP will get 370 seats and the NDA will cross 400 in interviews that you've recently done with deepok Sharma and Neu vas you said that Narendra Modi and the BJP will struggle to get to 220 230 seats can you start by explaining what brings you to this conclusion Karen thank you very much for having me it's always a pleasure speaking to you um you know um let let me break it down into two parts the first part is that I think uh 370 and 400 par is just a very very intelligent trick played by the ruling party and the Prime Minister I'll tell you why one if they have not said that the debate in the country would have been whether they're going to return to power or not whether they're going to win this election or not now the debate because they have said that the debate now is whether they'll it is possible for them to win 370 or is it possible for the NDA to cross 400 so it is it is Shifting of the terms of debate that they've achieved by boasting that they would cross 370 or they they will win 370 and they will cross uh 400 now my uh uh estimate why the BJP the ruling party under Mr Narendra Modi will struggle to get 220 230 is as follows um you know in still about 24 uh 2014 the BJP at its peak was able to get hold of about 20 22% and not more than that I'm not talking about the allies and you know NDA and all that and in 2014 they rode a very popular way which was launched by the India against corruption and because of that a lot of middle class Urban professionals they were disgusted with the corruption that was going on or what perceived corruption that was going on and then you know the strong marketing of Gujarat model strong leader decisive new policy paralysis kind of a narrative also pitched them the additional thing and that has taken them to about 27% also and I'm not talking about you have to um see that you know the Allies votes are not counted here but just the BH Jan party now in 2019 balakot and you know other things pulama they have added a bit more but now I have come to this uh estimate especially after what what what is called the Modi gate the the the Electoral Bond scheme the kind of Scandal that is now you know current it's very difficult for many people to really you know get an estimate get an understanding of how fast it is penetrating into the common people people are talking they may not know the nuances of electoral Bond but something has happened you know a lot of money has changed hands this narrative has gone very deep into the people and the most important Point here is is that the moral High Ground on which the barh Jan party and Narendra Modi government has been standing all this while has collapsed now now when when this receipts the 2001 2004 the approval that uh the the BJP got if that Reeds then they will back again be back again to to 20% 22% 23% so this is one the the second thing if if you look at the states of course we will discuss those States also but this is the overall Logic the overall framework within which I place my argument now Narendra Modi as you know has boasted that the BJP alone will win 370 seats yesterday we checked with the BJP press office and they said we should estimate that they will contest something like 450 seats if that is what they actually contest then the aim to win 370 means they're winning 82% of the seats they contest that is a fantastic strike rate would you say that is impossible to achieve it is impossible that's what I've have been arguing how many seats do they have to contest you know not just the nominal contest but serious contest that in order for that for them to win 370 this if the if the strike rate they're expecting more than 60 or 62% of strike rate even that is on the higher side I think they are living in modi's Paradise in other words an 82% strike rate is ruled out by you possible current impossible it's just not possible especially you know if you if you if you look at seriously what is happening in the country we we'll come to that you know we we will see what exactly is the the situation in the country Dr parakala if Modi is unlikely to cross 220 230 seats compared to 303 in 20 19 he's presumably going to lose a lot of seats in Northern India where precisely Northern India do you see the losses taking place um Karen um let us see now first of all which are the states which have given them a huge support in 14 and 19 to utar Pradesh Bihar Rajasthan madhya Pradesh and of course their home T that is Gujarat this is the core area and this area has reached saturation now I feel especially after I I get to know the reports that are coming out especially from the fmcg uh companies and the kind of rural distress and other things that we read about and we see um and you know the the the the Mand has not really taken off they they they pinned a lot of Hope on that if you if you look at these Dynamics then I think in these four five states they are losing not less than 50 to 60 seats there itself you're saying in States like Gujarat madhya Pradesh up bear they're losing up to 50 60 seats out of what they won in 29 yes that that's a very likely scenario how do you see Mr Modi and the BJP performance in South India in 2019 he won 29 out of a total of 129 seats where do you think he will end up in 2024 current the largest chunk of the 29 had come from Karnataka and Telangana gave only about four seats now in Telangana they they will be they will be much down they will be down probably uh to about two U but you see they will compensate those those two in Andra Pradesh because now they are teamed up with the tan party otherwise they would they would have drawn a blank in in Andra Pradesh they probably would be about two or three from Andra Pradesh but Karnataka they're going to suffer a huge setback because you see in in Karnataka their entire strength even even even as evidenced by the the the recently concluded last year's assembly elections also their strength mainly came from the coastal k and Bangalore and the surrounding areas now these two areas too are very very distant from very tough for the BJP now how many seats do you think they lose in Kata I think they had virtually all the seats baring one or two how many will they lose they just lost three seats last time I think uh this time from 25 they have I think uh it's very difficult for them to cross 15 and they will pick up one or two in Andra Pradesh as I said and and Kerala and Tamil Nadu they're again going to draw a blank so in other words you're anticipating a loss of up to 50 60 seats in Northern India and possibly somewhere between 10 and 13 seats in Southern India that is an overall loss of something like 70 seats all together 70 72 73 seats which is why the Tad comes down from 3 303 in 2019 to roughly 230 this time around uh I I would like to add one more sentence here curen uh normally what happens and what many observers ignore is what is called the band wagon e effect you know when you when you start losing 10 when you are poised to lose 10 you might end up losing 12 or 13 you know that is the bandwagon so if they are if they are losing if they're poised to lose about 50 or 60 they might end up losing 70 to 75 in other words the bandwagon effect works both ways when you're gaining you could gain more than you expected to gain when you're losing yes if you're poised to win 15 you might you might win 20 but if your PO to lose 10 then you might even lose uh you know more than uh 10 15 or even 13 if Modi and the BJP can cannot cross 230 which is 42 seats short of the majority what sort of government will we have are you anticipating an opposition Coalition or will Narendra Modi and the BJP successful in cobbling together a fragile majority of their own um Curren we'll have to go a little bit into the background because you see the the uh the uh current uh ruling Co actually you know they started talking about India only very recently otherwise they were not even talking about the BJP government they were talking about Modi government now after Modi government from Modi government they graduated to BJP government and from BJP government they're talking about IND government and you know they they're trying to get everybody on board now so many people are on board now why because they're panicking now when when the ruling party is strong there in any way going to form the government a lot of people flock to that they jump onto the bandwagon but you see because of their conduct over the last 10 years it you don't see evidence of winning manners by the Coalition managers by the Prime Minister by the leadership they they they were so aloof and you know they they they were unfriendly to allies and they they didn't even bother for a long time so when that happens when all this is built up when they are falling these so-called allies would like to push them even further rather than coming to the rescue so are you suggesting that a government is difficult for Mr Modi to form if he ends up at 230 and and you know I do not see an Evidence of the present leadership um has the skill or the temperment to go and you know win allies strike bargains even take that I do not see any evidence so I think very difficult for them to you know stitch together compromises and alliances so you're saying if Mr Modi ends up with just 230 seats he may be the single largest party in the Lok saaba but he will be forced to sit in the opposition because he doesn't have the temperament he doesn't have the skills he's not behaving in a way that he can stitch together the Allies needed to form even a fragile coalition government therefore opposition is where he's headed for yeah nor does his uh even his team the team also doesn't have the kind of skills and the kind of uh you know where withth all to stitch an alliance and and strike Bargains and compromises so according to your analysis Dr parakala Modi is heading for opposition um that is the most likely scenario that I see current yes okay against that fact ground let's at this point ask you how you view the Narendra Modi government that's ruled the country for the last 10 years in your book The Crooked Timber of New India you say and I'm quoting our democracy is in crisis our social fabric is torn our economy is in Peril and we are being dragged back to the Dark Ages what is the impact of ten years of Narendra modi's rule on India I stand by every word that I wrote then in my book and I would like to add one more thing to this is that you know um India also had especially after you had uh the revelations about the Electoral Bond I think this is the most corrupt government also in in in in the history of India having said that let me uh let me see let me tell you what I feel you know this this government what it did over all especially to the economy is from being a fragile five they have taken us to a country where there are fragile 82 CR people from fragile five we have become fragile 82 CR people this is one the second thing is that inequality is so high now that 1% this is this is the world inequality report lab report um 1% of the population has about 22% of its income and 1% of the population has about 40% of its Assets Now the philosophy of this government seems to be you know give five kilos of food grains to poor people and five airports to my friend that seems to be the that that seems to be the the philosophy and you know I was shocked current recently Professor pangara who is one of the important uh persons in their in their economic uh Team um said don't lose sleepover inequality you know it reminded me of uh U you know G and gecko greed is good inequality is good and the chief economic advisor said somewhere that solving unemployment problem is not the remit of the government and another economic aaric of the regime said there is there is poverty of ambition among our young people you know when when the youth unemployment rate in this country is 24% and the unemployment rate among young people aged between 20 and 25 is 40% now we have the mandarins of the regime talking about inequality is good um you know unemployment is not our remit and you know it's there's a Poverty of uh of you know ambition and you know the look at the look at the hundreds and thousands of people who are queuing up to get recruited by Israeli government to go to Gaza knowing very well it is a risk to their life sure is the kind of uh that is the kind of of you know distress that people are in now this in addition to this you have you know uh States being squeezed of their legitimate Financial uh um transfers and then minorities are under threat our democracy is now has become a mockery because you know you you are running the Lo saaba without 140 more than 140 opposition P you suspend them and pass bills you know in terms of handling the economy to come to that specifically in your book you talk of what you call Narendra modi's staggering incompetence why do you say that when this year we could be growing at a rate that is just under 8% and when Mr Modi claims that he's lifted 250 million people out of poverty why do you call that staggering incompetence oh there are there are several difficulties and several problems with this kind of a methodology that is one the second thing of course the most important uh uh uh problem that I must point out very very very uh briefly is that when they say that they they were growing at 8% why is this that consumption is only growing at 3 to 3.5% so you don't believe that 8% figure no not at all not at all there's a huge problem in this now you see internationally it is acceptable to have a have a A variation of about. 5% to 1% between the national income accounts and the national consumption accounts but here it is about 4% so which means I think this figure is so much inflated so much exaggerated that that they're trying to make it into a uh a huge uh you know uh uh propaganda stuff what about the claim of lifting 250 million people out of poverty I I'll come to that current the point is this the point is that when they say that they were growing at such a high rate of growth 8% why is it that the household savings is at the lowest historical low of 5% why is it that the household debt is at a historic high of 40% not only that even the national debt has grown over the last 10 years by more than 120 lakh Pro who is accounting for that one now look at this this this is the the there is there is very interesting uh um you know massaging of figures here when you talk about you know so many millions of people were lifted out of poverty now you see uh when people talked about per capita income then they said look per capita income probably is somewhere it is high but if you don't have access to schooling Health Care roads infrastructure information all these what is the point so you need to bring in these elements also so therefore this concept of multi-dimensional poverty was brought in now here the government of India is playing a trick of you know they are not talking about the income part of it they were talking about you know what is the infrastructure that was created therefore they are saying that you know multi-dimensional poverty has come down but then the the the Computing of even these things are having a problem because you know earlier can I can I interrupt no just one one one sentence Den current earlier 1 kilomet of a four lane road used to be 1 kilm of a four-lane road now 1 kilometer of a four lane road today is 4 kilm so therefore when you boost up everything by a factor of about four and then you see we have brought down the multi-dimensional poverty now it it is it's it's a laughable proposition so you're saying to me that this claim that we have lifted 250 million people out of poverty hinges around this concept of multi-dimensional poverty and you're saying the problem with multi-dimensional poverty is it pays more attention not to income levels which are not growing but to other things like health education Etc which are misleading at best and you know I want to I want to point out one more puzzle and see what you make of it say for instance uh you know in in in 2014 April the World Bank has declared in 20 14 April that India has become the third largest economy in 2011 that's on record in all the newspapers have published that now how many times does our government want us to become third largest economy one the second thing is now we claim that we are now the fifth a second when we be when you claim that the World Bank says we became the third largest economy in 2011 is that in purchasing parity terms yes that that that that's what the World Bank had said very clearly and we don't talk about that at all now why so you're saying that the achievement of becoming the fifth largest economy last year is in fact misleading because we were already the third largest I mean we're getting confused over here so I'm asking you for a bit of clarity but briefly because this point will now begin to confuse the audience horribly no I think it's the government which is confusing or the government which is confused the data does not confuse one more Point let's let's let's let's extricate ourselves from this because I don't want the audience to get confused and L track on this point this is simply to do with definitions about what is the largest what is the second largest and how it's measured let's get out of that let's focus instead while we talk about the last 10 years of Narendra modi's rule on Narendra Modi himself do you believe over the last 10 years he shown that he's a dictator or is that an exaggeration no I'll come to that just allow me one sentence um yeah very briefly when you say that we have overtaken United Kingdom and become the fifth largest economy United Kingdom is a is a developed country if you have overtaken a developed country you would have become a developed country are you a developed country but again at the same time the forgive me sir we need to be clear over here because we end up horribly confusing the audience we've overtaken the United Kingdom in terms of the absolute size of the economy but if we talking about income per person per capita per head we are behind them we are 21 22 times behind them they're at 42 43,000 per person we're roughly at 2,800 so we're around 20 times behind them that is exactly what I'm trying to say absolutely but let's extricate ourselves from that because I don't want the audience to get confused and sidetracked let's focus on the 10 years of the Modi government by asking the question has he behaved like a dictator in your eyes is Narendra Modi a dictator as many people say I I feel that he's definitely not a Democrat and I think he's on the way to become and he would like to become a dictator because you see I think there is this forgive me what do you mean he'd like to become is he a dictator or not now yes of course he is he is he's not a Democrat he he doesn't bother about the parliament he doesn't bother about Center State tions he doesn't bother about the office of the uh president of India he doesn't bother about uh anybody in the in the in the in the government and you know he he he can he can he is no more what he used to be in 2014 A Team India which is prime minister and the chief ministers it your answer to my question is Narendra Modi a dictator was of course he's a dictator yes in your opinion what will be history's verdict on the 10 years of Narendra modi's prime minister I think uh the verdict would be that he has set India back in terms of economy at least 20 years to 25 years in terms of polity at least he has taken us back to pre-independence St in terms of social Fabric and you know scientific temper and the values of the Society of secularism of you know India belonging to everybody he has taken us back to the days of 1818 or even before that or even to the Middle Ages I'm going to repeat what you said because I think it's so critical and important you said he has set India back in terms of the economy by 2025 years in terms of polity to pre-independence days in terms of the social fabric he's taken us back to at least 1818 that is two centuries and more yeah even Middle Ages you know entire Narrative of past worshipping this has become the official Credo of India under SRI Narendra Modi let's at this point Dr paraka got flip our discussion so far we've talked about how he's likely to do in the elections and secondly about an assessment of the way his rule has impacted India over the last 10 years now I want to raise a third issue with you let's assume that Narendra Modi gets a majority informs the third government when the elections are held starting in a week's time what would that mean a third Narendra Modi government for India's democracy and for the country you know uh a return to power of this present government with this kind of a narrative with this kind of a track record current it would spell disaster for India I think you can forget about the kind of diverse liberal secular India we've been talking about we we have lived through I I think the The Narrative is going to be you know uh this constitution did not serve us well this is not the Constitution that is suitable to India it has to be a country owned and run by the Hindus according to their own ancient wisdom and ancient values and ancient texts this is one which is is in other words is a Hindu rra so you're you're expecting that if he gets a third term he will move to change the Constitution and officially make India a Hindu rra that's what you're expecting that is the project that's what I see and of course that is the reason why they talk about for chars of power and all that which is which is unlikely but in the unlikely event of you know they getting what they what they what they want to get to get is this is what it is going to be and another important thing you know uh you know uh probably Manipur is is not a very large part of our national imagination but you know what is happening in Manipur and you don't get to know of it if you look at any mainstream media you don't get to look at it it is almost like you know you you you you you smother um a and prevent it from heralding Dawn and Dawn doesn't you know stop it will Anyway come but the point is this the point is that they are smothering but that kind of a scenario what is happening in Manipur is likely to happen in every state in this country current that is the danger the other danger is you know the the the kind of dog whizzles that you hear lynching and you know economic boyot marking of houses and calling upon people to you know uh chat this particular slogan Worship in this particular way otherwise you have no place in this country you know these kind of things are now confined here and there to dog visits by Fringe elements but if this government returns I apprehensive that these kind of dog visels will no longer be dog visels but they will be open calls from the ramparts of red for I on a second you're saying that calls calling Muslims bber accus them of Love Jihad and cattle lynching telling them to go to Pakistan even calls by DH SS threatening genocide and ethnic cleansing you're saying these will now be heard from the ramparts of the red for in other words the Prime Minister on Independence Day will be saying these things if Mr Modi wins a third term that's what you're saying exactly you know you had a for test of that because a couple of years ago the Prime Minister had said you know um 14th of August should be celebrated as partition Horrors day so and you know you can only expect some kind of a logical progression from there that is the likel likely scenario that you know I so then let me ask you bluntly Muslims are 14.3% of our population now estimated to be around 200 million that is bigger than the population of any Muslim country other than Indonesia and possibly Pakistan it's bigger than the population of most countries anywhere in the world what sort of future do Indian Muslims face if Narendra Modi wins a third term you know the there's this classic formulation of uh you know um um um what do we how do we deal with the Muslim question has been debated for a long time within the the SAR organizations you know that but the present is taskar parishkar taskar you know you you you you give them a lot of saman so leaving all those now we have come to aasar issue what does tusar mean tusar means rejection now you see you see what is happening now so you're saying we will be rejecting Muslims see it's already there I I just want to point out two or three signals currently to you this is the first ever time the largest minority of this country has no place in the union cabinet and Union Council of ministers this is the first ever time that the largest minority of this country does not form does not does not have a place in the ruling parties uh legislature parties in many states as well as the central legislature party in fact the BJP doesn't have a single Muslim MP in either house of parliament yes and in many states where they rule like for instance utar Pradesh and Gujarat for a long time even even in in in in in in a place like Karnataka not only they don't have a member in the legislature party but they have not even been given a ticket so this is taskar puraskar no paskar you know parishkar we have to the parishkar is by taskar that is what they are doing it one I'm just clarifying for the audience you can carry on after I've interrupted you you're saying that the situation facing Muslims is what you call tar IE rejection they will be rejected by the government yes it's already started the signs are very clear as I pointed out one the second thing what I'm afraid of current is this that if you want to live here you can very well live but do accept the superiority of the Hindus it is after all the Hindu land you you're welcome to live as long as you accept that you are a subordinate person you're a subordinate people this is this is the first stage but after if it continues after that even that living in subordination also will not be feasible anymore after some time that you know if you have to there's no place for you here you can go to and CIA is are you suggesting that after subordinating Muslims and making them second class citizens the second stage after that will be to tell them to leave the country is that what you're suggesting don't you see that kind of a sign in in CAA no we are now you know slowly the the the first you know the the the first PA the so so to say is that you know you are slowly trying to link citizenship and religion which was not the case earlier and you know let forgive me I'm interrupting you but I'm as doing it because I think this is so important we need Clarity you're saying the first stage after Modi or if Modi wins a third term will be subordinating Muslims and making them second class citizens and the second stage will be throwing them out of the country by one method or another we will throw them out of the country this will be the completion of tuskar or what you call rejection yes not only to Muslims I think every other minority in the country will have to live with a situation where they have to reconcile to being a subordinate status mean Christians as well and Buddhists too seeks to why not why not because you see you know now today you try to coopt everybody but that's not the Creed that is not the essential Creed that that has never been the Creed it and it is no secret current it's it's written all over let me let me sum up what you said because it's a very deeply distressingly disturbingly horrible picture that you're painting you're saying first of all India will become a Hindu rra if Modi wins a third term Muslims will be as you said rejected or pushed into taskar at the first stage they will be made subordinate people then they will be actually forced to leave the country if not thrown out of the country you're saying this could happen to all minorities Christians siks Buddhists gen one after saying what is happening in Manipur is likely to happen in every state of the country this is why you believe and I'm quoting you a third term for Modi is you said a disaster for India this is what you mean by disaster for India exactly correct exactly yes you really mean this it's a terrible horrible picture that you've painted it's worse than hell but you really mean this you're not exaggerating you're not being polemical you know you know I I don't need to exaggerate I have no access to grind I do not have to to go after anybody I do not have to you know make a mission of my life to to to to criticize somebody or to paint a bleak picture it's not these are the signs that I see but if somebody wants to tell me that this is not the case ask them to show me green shoots in the economy ask them to you know tell me what what is the employment scenario ask them to tell me no you you're wrong we have a we have a uh very respectable Muslim members in the cabinet in the parties ask them to tell me then tell me if this is the picture that you see if Modi being wins a third term what would be his treatment of major regional leaders and chief ministers what would be the situation facing people like mam banery MK stallin arind krial Pinay vayan akiles yadav what is the future hold for them um well you know uh today youve already had a for test of that in in uh in the case of Mr Arin kria whoever defers whoever doesn't fall in line or whichever media house is critical or try to question you know you know you know what is happening in the in the in the media I want a second are you saying Dr parakala that Justice Arin kial and heon sain have been arrested you're saying the same Prospect the same future looms ahead for M banery MK Stalin pin V possibly akiles Yad are you saying jail is the future they face if they don't fall in line it's like this you know you you you you painted as corrupt but once you join them you're not corrupt at all but if they don't fall in line jail is the alternative yes that that that's what I foresee yes you foresee the entire opposition leadership being sent to jail if they don't fall in line it's already started One Two Chief ministers are already in jail and one of the major political parties bank accounts are frozen so they they they are are in such a panic mode that they do not want this election to be a free and fair election what if they're so confident current why will they do all this what about Congress and in particular the Gandhi family what is the future that stares Rahul Gandhi in the face if Modi wins a third ter exactly the same exactly the same J yes of course the the the present dispensation doesn't want anybody who would question who who would be away from them or who would challenge them who would criticize them to be up and about to be free do you believe that Modi will be particularly vengeful to the Gandhi family and perhaps to Rahul Gandhi in particular because clearly he doesn't like that family and he particularly Des jawahar Neu so will they be specifically targeted in a way that is say worse to the targeting and treatment of people like mam banery MK Stalin pin Vian will their treatment be worse you know um didn't we get a for taste of that um Rahul Gandhi especially was uh thrown out of the Lo SAA thrown out of his house and then the he he came back after the court intervention so that is the four taste tell me something is this simply the doing of Narendra Modi and possibly ahit sha who is very close to or do you think the government as a whole supports this endorses it and stands by him or are they just silent because they're scared to speak out which of the two you know uh the thing is this it's very difficult to you know uh get into you know personalities and I'm not asking you to get into personalities I'm deliberately avoiding naming your wife I'm simply saying do you think the government as a whole stands by Modi or is Modi doing something that he wants to do without caring about what his government and his party thinks I think it is the it is the project of the present dispensation it is the project it is the larger project of making in or remaking India in the image of what has been what has been said since the 1920s and 1930s in other words the entire government is behind this now it is and the party too and the party too yes now now what what is BJP now in other words there are no strong dissenting differing voices that matter I do I do not know current I I'm not private to any information of that kind in your in your interviews with Deepak Sharma and nilu vas you also said that if Modi wins in 2024 it's likely to be the last election held in India do you really mean that the one election that starts in a week from today would end up being the last election if Modi wins you know um you might have elections like we have elections they have elections in Russia under Putin fical ones fical ones 95 98% people endorsing you know just about and in China you have elections you know I I I met a Chinese delegation when I was the part of AP Government the the Chinese delegation came and they Pres presentation the first sentence that they spoke the leader of the delegation said China is a multi-party democracy that's what you're saying to me that if Modi wins in 2024 that election will be the last credible election we may have elections thereafter like Putin has in Russia where he Awards himself a majority of 90 95 96 97% but the last credible free democratic election if Modi wins will have been 20 24 that's right that's what I mean yes how long will this horrible picture that you painted last is it reversible and I'll tell you why I asked we went through an equally gloomy black patch for roughly 21 months during the emergency that lasted from 75 till early 77 but we recovered we survived and we won back our democracy is the picture that you're painting that will emerge if Modi wins a third term irreversible or can it be reversed and can we emerge back into the sunlight um current I am not somebody who believes in inevitabilis I believe in human agency and as I said uh the present dispensation returning to power is very unlikely as I said that but you asked me if it War to return what would be the picture so that's what I have explained and is that picture reversible if at all if at all that happens you mean yes or if at all that happens if at all that happens can it be some point down the road it'll be it be a long struggle now there there's a difference between uh 77 and 75 and 77 and what is happening now you know what is happening now is a is part of a project it is not uh an an individual ambition or an individual quir or an individual or what you call an idiosyncratic thing it is it is it is a what is happening now is a result of a project the project is that to convert this country into a Hindu rashtra where other than Hindus have no pleas three it should not be it should not be a federation anymore you know the these are the very important narratives what you're saying Dr parakala is that the big difference between the emergency and today is that in the days of the emergency it was indraa Gandhi's personal ambition to secure her position for which she was prepared to sacrifice the Constitution and our democracy but because it was one woman and her interest it was more easily reversible now it is a project a project to which the government the BJP the party the whole entire s parivar is committed and the project is not simply boosting the glory of an individual it's converting into a India into into a Hindu rashtra and doing away with its federalism and that project if it were to happen after the third election and the third Victory may be lot more difficult to reverse it's much more deep and you know it has an ideological underpinning like I said you know they they they they not only tolerate inequality economic inequality but even communal inequality religious inequality Regional inequality linguistic inequality food inequality dress inequality they justify it they they they they they they work for it this is one in other words the Deep you're saying the deep dark black night that could descend upon India if Modi wins a third term may be very difficult to reverse sunlight would be a long long long way ahead it won't be that easy it won't be like the emergency that lasted only 21 months it would last for a lot lot longer I'm afraid so K yes on that very depressing note Dr parakala thank you very much for talking to me thank you very much for sharing your analysis of what you believe will be the likely election result the good news is that you don't believe Narendra Modi is going to get more than 220 230 seats you believe that at that level he find it impossible to form a government even to Cobble together a fragile one opposition as you said is what stares him in the face the bad news is that if Narendra Modi wins a majority as many people if not most expect you believe it will be a disaster for India I won't repeat the details of the disaster they're just too depressing to have to hear again I thank you for making time for me take care and in particular stay safe thank you Karan thank you very much always pleasure to talk to you hi I'm Karan ER over the last few years I hope you've been watching my program the interview on The Wire during that period I've interviewed doctors politicians businessmen scientists authors and even the occasional Noble Laurette for me it's been exciting I hope it's been enjoyable for you but these as you know are tough times and if this program is going to remain bold independent and sometimes even defiant then I think we need your support at the end of the day it's a truism but editorial Independence is best defended by the viewers so if you would like this program to remain the way it is forthright outspoken and interesting then would you consider supporting us all you have to do is to click on the description at the bottom but more than anything else I hope you will continue to watch the interview your viewership means an awful lot to me [Music]

Channel: The Wire

Views: 1,565,179

Keywords: The Wire, The Wire Videos, The Wire Hindi, The Wire Urdu, The Wire Marathi, Latest News, Top News, Top Headlines, Politics, News Live, Elections, India, India News, Economy, Indian Economy, Latest from India, The Wire News, KARAN THAPAR, Nirmala Sitharaman, finance miniter husband

Id: DLy3YOJeogA

Length: 52min 46sec (3166 seconds)

Published: Fri Apr 12 2024