Michael Gervais on Creating a Living Masterpiece || The Psychology Podcast

welcome to the psychology podcast where we give you insights into the mind brain behavior and creativity i'm dr scott barry kaufman and in each episode i have a conversation with a guest who will stimulate your mind and give you a greater understanding of yourself others and the world we live in hopefully we'll also provide a glimpse into human possibility thanks for listening and enjoy the podcast [Music] today it's great to have michael gervais on the podcast dr gervais is a world renowned high performance psychologist and industry visionary over the course of 20 years working with world leading performers dr gervais has developed a psychological framework that allows people to thrive in pressure-packed environments his clientele consists of the nfl seattle seahawks countless olympic medalists mvps from every major sport world record holders internationally acclaimed music artists and corporate leaders dr gervais is the host of the popular finding mastery podcast that explores the psychology of some of the world's most extraordinary thinkers and doers dr gervais and nfl coach pete carroll founded compete to create an online and live master class for the mind they have worked with more than 3 000 employees at microsoft alone on the mental skills and strategies to unleash one's potential dr gervais and pete carroll have co-authored the recently released audible original called compete to create also gervais is a published peer-reviewed author and recognized speaker on optimal human performance he's been featured by nbc abc fox cnn espn nfl network wall street journal new york times outside magazine wired espn magazine the harvard business review and others was that enough of a bio there mike and i get to be fortunate to be scott barry kaufman's friend oh i love it mike it is so great to have you on the show today if i may call you mike of course i've been looking forward to this with you been looking forward to it as well i think it's been maybe a couple years since you've last been on the psychology podcast congratulations on everything that you've been putting together and um it's not lost to me the work that you've invested in in trying to understand how to add to the body knowledge of our beautiful field so well done mate well thank you that that really does mean a lot to me it's nice to have that noticed that hard work so let's talk about compete to create it's an audible book now i mean it was a training course and now you you've turned it with pete into an audible book why audible why that format well i'm a fan of listening um as a form of learning i really like the visual and auditory systems as part of learning so we've that's why we started the course and then the reason we wanted to do an audible book an audible original is it's called um is as an extension to the podcast experience for people and as an extension that you can uh listen to some stories rather than read them and we will get to a book at some point but um we wanted to start with audible as we're fans of what they've done yeah they're great i think a lot of people are really moving to audible these days i think i may have sold more cops in my book and audible than the hardcover version especially during this this pandemic and this might just just be exactly what the doctor ordered for a lot of people your book on audible well you know we had a lot of fun putting together this interactive relationship between stories and science and very tangible takeaways you know like that's the thing about our field is that it's invisible yeah and we're working on the interior life which is incredibly tricky you know to try to illuminate and and create something that is noticeable in the way that we can change because it's an internal private world that we're talking about so i think we found the sweet spot between science fun stories that he and i uh banter back and forth and then all obviously the takeaway tools well let me step back a second like where did you meet pete carroll how did that happen that kismet it was a mutual friend put us together and so they had assumed that we knew each other based on our world views and so i said no and he said no and so this person put us together over a mutual um i'm sorry over a dinner and it was just electric it was a great dinner great conversation we talked about you know obviously our world views we talked about the science and the art that intersection of of psychology and then we talked about our calling for generativity or calling to to give and um we both had some non-profit um deep roots and non-profit uh arena and so we talked about that as well yeah there are lots of areas of mutual interest between you and him and the vision and philosophy seem to match quite well what does the phrase compete to create mean and i ask this because when i was on your show recently we had a fun discussion about the word competition and i want to concede something to you maybe that's ironic we're talking about competition but but what i liked about that conversation is that you convinced me that the word competition doesn't have to be this winner takes all sort of spirit which maybe i had been thinking too much along those lines prior well for good reason because if we were to ask somebody off the street or if even if you were to google you know something on your phone for the word competition it would certainly come up being better than others you know and if you go back to the latin origins of the word it is to strive together to work together and so when we go back to the origins it is like it's beautiful you know it's this idea of working together striving straining together to figure out potential and it maps on that you know biblic saying about iron sharpens iron you know it maps on to this idea that we create a rising tide together it maps on to the idea of put your life vest on first so that you can be there to help bring the best out of others even in dire times so it really is this idea of the relationship between and the relationship between two people but certainly we're double clicking on that and saying the relationship within yourself and then we're extending it to the relationship with mother nature and so you know and not competing in the sense but building the relationship to help to grow and again it starts with yourself with others and then with mother nature but your your question was about how do we come up with the title as you can tell we are not marketing you know dynamos here and so we sat in a room for hours and we had all these inspired words about like what we wanted our company to be and we you know and we had all really good words you know something where the the classic you know latin origin words and somewhere of asian influence and some were you know like american words that we are english words that we love and so we're frustrated because we couldn't find the agreement and so it kind of boiled down to okay well pete what's what's what's the core word in your philosophy and he said yeah you know com compete and he said well what's yours i said create and so i'll explain my philosophy in a minute and so we looked at each other he said wait wait is it create to compete no no no compete to cr compete to create and then he goes wait c to see like from the seas to you know or whatever and so we just laughed and we said yeah yeah okay let's just go with it it's weird let's go with it compete to create and so it really means work your ass off compete your ass off to create a living masterpiece and so that's the essence behind it yeah i think i don't think it's a weird title at all uh maybe that's just because i love the word create you know that that's exciting to me and i was wondering what your thoughts were on creativity and and how you define that word okay well so now like i'm gonna get step out of the margins of my lane into the square center of your lane here sbk is lean yeah i don't know why i said that okay so um so for me is when you create it's uh the act of sorting something out that's new to you and innovation is sharing something that is new to others and so um the creative process i think is the artistic creative process is one of the highest expression um mechanisms that we have and it requires a command of inner self it requires a command of craft and it requires ability to be in the present moment and it requires vulnerability and courage and artistic expression i think is one of the highest forms of being human and so you know it snapped into my philosophy which is every day is an opportunity to create a living masterpiece and if i could edit it slightly it would be co-create but um because it's a relationship you know with self others and mother nature spiritual if you will the co-creating but not to confuse myself it's uh i love the word create so i wanna i wanna pause there and say um remind me how you see because i've read your books but remind me how you see and define the work create there are very different definitions as you know and in the psychological literature there's the definition of creativity as novelty and meaningfulness it has to have both components but i like to return the old humanistic sort of just simple definition like raul may encourage to create he's like creativity creativity's just you bringing into being anything that didn't exist before i'm like you know what i'm cool with that i kind of like this bringing into being part well that's the so i'm i snap into the role of my piece as well which is when it's new to you right so when you do something that's new to you that's part of the creative expression and then when you share it with others that's innovation and that that that helps me sort out the difference between the two and um but the creative expression is awesome it's the spontaneity of it but also the planning that goes ahead of it and the structure to break structure i mean i love that idea from form to break form from form to form less i love that idea yeah i do too is this related all to the the bruce lee water of course it is yeah right yeah of course it is but it's also like i part of my training and yours is about structure and form and that's the gift that science can give us you know and then at some point we need to understand well where do we break structure and form and if we you know triple click on the idea of form that inside of sport psychology we often talk about pre-performance routines and so having routines to help us get to a place that we can be free and i'm not a huge fan of pre-performance routines and i know the field in the industry is you know doesn't like me to say that so much because it's one of the core mental skills but i want to just put a note out there that it's a substandard state so doing pre-performance routines is substandard to the actual state of being here being fully present and having this foundational approach to life which is yeah no i've got what it takes and i know how to adjust and i have some serious skills and i love challenges so when i do this appraisal that's a you know a nerd word that you and i like when i do this appraisal of my internal and external my internal skills and my external resources or challenge that i have what it takes i can figure it out and so anyways it's a long way of me saying that i love the idea of form to break form it's wonderful patricia strokes there's a great book she she wrote that um not many people read but it's good it's creativity from constraints about how she goes through some of the best like jazz uh musicians artists they put explicit constraints on their process and so they could be more creative it's actually counterintuitive that we we think that the more options we have the more creative will be when that's not the case at all just at least being overwhelmed i had a conversation with the former director of darpa and which is a very significant and important innovative arm of the military and she explained to me that the way that they would create and innovate is by creating constraints that were nearly unrealistic and so that she'd say i'd i'd cobble together you know 7 eight twelve of the brightest minds that i think could solve this thing and then i'd put a ridiculous timeline on it and say right you got two weeks to solve world hunger whatever it might be and they're they really you know we're about technology and so and she says it's amazing you take the distractions away you put a really thoughtful team together and then create really clear boundaries and bumpers and constraints and it's amazing what people can create and so i learned that from from darpa like the importance of constraints i love that and what is what is your thought what are your thoughts on the role of the unconscious in competition and creativity okay so can we talk about non-conscious before we talk about unconscious can we do that yeah so so let me be mechanical for a moment before we enter the spiritual world of this um spiritual psychological okay so mechanically if the non-conscious well let's go upstream if the brain is has two main functions it's a survival dictum and part one is working in space in the environment for survival so manipulating moving you know working with your environment for survival and then the second is like a meaning making inference designing machine right to make sense that what what we understand or what i understand about the non-conscious is more aligned to habits and so we go from something that takes a lot of resources into something that we can do with some automaticity and then when we can do it that way it gets driven down into something that is more of a neurological patterning you know and so the non-conscious the mechanical way of thinking about the non-conscious is that because we do things repeatedly they become automatic and that is a resource saving machine it's expensive you know from a brain perspective from a psychological safety mechanism it's expensive to try to focus on things that could be automatic and so the non-conscious for me is a part of it is a bunch of patterns and being able and this is where i think heuristics makes sense is that heuristics are that snapshot ability to have a quote-unquote shortcut to what this moment means and what i need to do in this moment to optimize it and if we're not careful just survive but you know you and i like to think about optimization so non-conscious is really about those um the patterns that sit underneath the surface that we don't need to think about from a mechanical standpoint and that is very important for the optimized experience as a human and it's also a trap so it's it's got both of those yeah total double double edged sword well this idea of optimization very interesting i was hoping we could unpack it a little bit until actually i would love to do that with you but i want to hear your take on what i just said because i our friendship what i love about our friendship is that yeah because we go like we go back and forth you know about things and iron sharpens iron so i respect your acumen and your intelligence and your curiosity so i'd love for you to push back or or nod your head to how you see that unconscious thank you michael my my style is um when i'm doing the interviews is instead of just turning the spotlight back at me i ask clarifying questions and then that i'll stimulate in me some it help it's like a covert way of me being able to comprehend areas of agreement and disagreement so i was hoping if you could unpack a little more what this idea is of getting better and i'll respond to that once you can do that sure but but what i what i want to understand is you know you talk about optimization but in a lot of ways your your book is about getting better and what what i want to understand is your conception of like what is the asymptote there like what what is the end game what is it what are you what's your north star goal of to mean what does it mean to get better and once i understand that better then i'll i'll definitely weigh in beautiful well let's go north star first and then i'll work backwards great so the north star is being being here wow not doing no being present being authentic being grounded you know having your mind and your body in the same place doing the same thing and so that's the essence of it and the accident that sits underneath that is you have everything you need already inside you and to do the being and so let's start with the north star that's the north star and then when we think about what happens for most people is being is easy let's say over a cup of tea with friends or a glass of wine at dinner like being is easy when the environment is easy okay when it's conducive when it's favorable and as we go up the ladder or titrate up stress or pressure or consequential environments can you still be you and so what does that mean to be you it means your mind and your body in the same place doing the same thing and doing it authentically to your principles and your value structures your like your virtues and i don't really love the word virtues but doing it into your character style and so that's what it means now what i have come to find is that we need mental skills to be able to do that in the most consequential environments because we start to make different sense of what happens if maybe i can't be myself because i need to play it safe and small or i tighten up whatever and it's really hard to be free when you have the perception of a moment having consequence and so so that's where mental skills come in that's where the getting better at the mental game is about and so it's the mental game really is twofold when i think of psychology if i could oversimplify the beautiful science that we have fallen in love with is that there's a discovery piece to it and then there's a skill building piece and so i just want to oversimplify that we need both we need to understand deeply and who we are what we're about how we make sense of the world around us and then the other part is like what are the skills that are going to help what are the psychological skills that are going to help me be about it on a more consistent basis and when that happens i got it and i don't i don't know anyone that has it you know maybe dollyliner and jesus and scott barry kaufman but like no no no no i'd like to take a moment to talk about our sponsor betterhelp is there something interfering with your happiness or preventing you from achieving your goals for quite a lot of us right now during this coronavirus pandemic we are struggling with our most fundamental basic needs such as our needs for security connection and opportunities to master our work i think all of us could use some therapy right now i know i sure could which is why i've really been enjoying working with a professional therapist at betterhelp so i can realize the best version of myself even under 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available betterhelp wants you to start living a happier life today visit their website and read the testimonials that are posted daily here's a recent one for example camilla helped me turn my life around everything has been so positive for me since our first session deep gratitude i'm pleased to announce a special offer for listeners of the psychology podcast you can get 10 percent off your first month of professional counseling by going to betterhelp.com forward slash psych podcast that's better h e l forward slash psych podcast join the over 800 000 people taking charge of their mental health with the help of an experienced professional okay now back to the show i love what you're saying and i i just still did in my in my notes as you were talking to know thyself and then be better than yourself let's think about that for a minute think about it think about it know thyself yes because because you know carl rogers talked a lot about i know you like carl rogers too we both nerd out of a car he says the curious paradox is that once i accept myself then i can change and you know this discovery part you may discover things you don't like about yourself but you still accept them but you still want to change them ultimately so yeah there you go yeah that's what i meant that's what's up and so um i think that it's that's important nuance to bring about is that there is there it when you use your imagination or you're around people that are going to use their imagination for you that one of the things that we can do is we can imagine what it's like when we are truly authentically ourselves in all of its um essence and we're our highest form right the most joyous whatever that means to you the most joyous the most intense the most present whatever that means to your unique way of of engaging in the world yeah that that is that aspirationally is the idea and so when you use your imagination and sometimes that means you toggle back to times in your in your past where you have been absolutely brilliantly present and you wonder like can i do that more often you know what would it be like if i was that mo that version of myself more often that's what i'm talking about like creating this idea this vision about what it means when you are fully syncopated and integrated into an environment and that environment potentially has what once brought you stress you can mitigate that or even dissolve that pressure by being fully skilled and having a deep commitment a fundamental commitment to be yourself in every set environment and so i'll just add one little nuance to the end of this and i'll stop talking is that i mentioned somebody else using their imagination that in some respects is the highest a one of the highest forms of love is that you're so present with another person that you get glimpses of what it would be like for them to be what you've seen and smelt and heard and felt for them to be about it on a regular basis and then you're so present with them that you see it you feel it and then you have that vulnerable meech courageous meets bold relationship to say to that person hey you know what can i share something with you they say yeah what's up so when i think about like what i've seen from you and what is amazing about you this is what i see what do you think and then there's this calibration of like a better a better version of of you and that in many respects is one of the beautiful gifts of love see this is why this dialectical is beautiful because i'm just modified modified on the spot my two maxims so it sounds like know thyself and then become a better version of yourself [Music] yeah and then what that gets tricky is that when you really know yourself are we talking about embracing all of the character flaws and all of the assets right like all of that yes we are yeah and then we're saying if you were able to like you think about this expanded version of you and virgin's got a it's there's a complication with that language right um because it sounds like it's a thin slice like a version or it's a manifestation of something that is less than now but if you were to embrace what it would be like if you were more consistently loving more consistently authentic more consistently caring or compassionate or whatever that's what we're talking about like if you're if you're working on i don't know strength what would that look like and feel like and then we that's the north star being that more often and um then we're back into a strategy and a plan to help make that happen i guess the way i was thinking about it is that when you focus on things like mindfulness and and attention you use those as skills to be as present as you can to the best that's within you so that you don't get constantly distracted by and pulled into other people's dramas and other people's selves i guess that's what i was thinking about you know why your skill building is so important is because that skill set gives you the attentional abilities to not be so driven by everyone else's desire to suck you into their life story you know so i don't know that's the way i was thinking about it that's it that's exactly how i think about it as well is that yeah you know it's through the relationship with ourselves that we become with others as well and mother nature but that relationship is born through deep focus and attention and when we're in mechanisms or i'm sorry environments of perceived or real pressure or consequence then our attention goes to something that is more immediately uh required which is survival and so you nailed it and you know when you learn how to be aware of what's true and what's present and what is unfolding and how you're responding to the unfolding environment you end up learning that not all your choices are the ones that are beautiful sometimes they're scratchy and irritated and full of frustration you know and if you if that's okay for you then that's okay but also it's it's important to embrace that when we are frustrated with others that there is some of scar tissue that happens in the relationships and um you know so that's okay we just need to you know spend more time i think becoming aware and when we when people do embrace that deep commitment to awareness which is what mindfulness really is about you know that um or a significant part of mindfulness we end up recognizing that we're all just trying to figure it out like we're just trying to do our very best based on our genetic gifts and and liabilities based on what we've been taught what we've been untaught you know um we're just trying to figure it out and do our best some people have incredible natural skills and but most people that pursue potential have a relentless commitment to organize their inner life and their skills and and physical skills and talents their craft to be able to express them across said environments yeah it's a good point but there's surely there's individual differences in that as you point out those who are committed to that but aren't there a lot of people who aren't trying to do their best i mean they don't they don't they're not consciously actively working towards that you know it's an interesting philosophical dilemma about humanity most people that i know well let's talk about the people i work with they're the half percenters you know the the absolute freaks in the way that they've organized their life to express their talents most of them would say oh yeah and they'd still say that but there's more to go now then when we double click to you know the 99 percent the rest of us i think i'd love to hear what you think i think most people think that they are doing pretty well they're trying to be their best but they also know that there's more to go yeah so i don't see a big difference other than the fundamental orientation of how you design your life and i say that because so often as you recognize people are looking for shortcuts and hacks and tricks and tips and seven steps or whatever and that's all there's none it we make a mistake bro [Laughter] you just like telling a lot of people santa claus don't exist oh i know so um we make a mistake when we see the people on the podium and we say oh it's amazing look at the hardware look at the imagine their life now look at what sits before it which is the fundamental organization of how they manage and structure their life their day-to-day life it's a fundamental commitment towards that aim so i think most people know that they are think that they're doing pretty damn good and know that there's more to go even if you're on the continuum of mental illness on the on the continuum of the human experience from mental illness suffering all the way up to some sort of optimization i think everybody has pretty much the same approach which is i'm doing pretty good i'm doing my best and there's more to go take people who score high in like the dark triad of personality which is what's something i've studied you know narcissism psychopathy machiavellianism so their primary motivation is uh like i'm not convinced their primary motivation is growth and trying to be their best self their primary motivation is how can i exploit others how can i uh manipulate others for my gain how can i have control over others would you would you still say even in those cases those individuals are trying to uh just they're just they're just doing their best like would you say that about dark triad individuals okay so let me pull this apart in two directions one their north star is different than the north star you and i are talking about so exactly i think the framework is still the same that they are working um the dark triad folks are i don't know if i can use this word but they're skilled you know like they're really committed to let's call power they're really committed to something that you and i are not committed to and they are organizing their life toward that aim so they their commitment is important and so they're they're flat out committed just like the rest of us it's just a different north star well that's what i was thinking is that you know people definitely definitely have different north stars but you think that within them is still this this potentiality that wants to be a better person no not be a better person okay i think that they want to be better and their north star is just different than that's right yeah this is super complicated but um let's answer see if we can answer this question was genghis khan a good leader was mussolini a good leader was hitler a good leader was bin laden a good leader you know like it's complicated to even bring that question up because of the destruction that they have left in their wake were they trying to maximize their approach toward their north star probably it's not the north star you and i are anyone invested in or even find to be beautiful but was how did they organize their life fundamentally toward that north star and that's what makes it scary to me not everybody's nice kind of loving beautiful there's evil dangerous people in the world so this is really helpful to clarify help me clarify your your your worldview and what you and pete argue in the book because you're you're ensconced in this uh world of sports where for a lot of people i mean doing is what matters you don't just you don't have people you don't have the quarterback you know taking the ball and start meditating in the middle of the field and he's like you know like he's like nah i'm good i'm good i'm just gonna be beat during this game so how do you um how do you help the players balance the two or may not maybe balance isn't even the right word integrate the two where they're they're being on the field but they're still like they want to win the game right like let's be honest yeah oh yeah good question and thanks i like keeping it real mike you see you like that yeah for sure it's a big word to me yeah or a big phrase so um well so let's think about like how this works because i i really appreciate that you pulled back the word balance integration is a better word and then so the preparation it requires whether you're a zen buddhist whether you are quarterback whether you're an entrepreneur or a parent it requires some sort of development inner development of your inner skills as well as external skills to be able to integrate those two or merge them in a moving environment right and so the moving environment is like this moment to the next moment to the next moment and then based on your perception you compress the intensity of that moment and your perception is like this does is this a big moment which you and i will humbly i think chuckle that there's no such thing as a big moment that there's just there's again this moment didn't drake have a song arguing there is such a thing as a big moment i don't know i mean you know like i feel you i think that it's when you listen to espn and fox and whatever like the defining game the biggest moment of their life you know like like it's a common narrative but when you strip it down it really is this moment is all we get so how do we do this there's a training and preparation and that's a big part of integrating the being in the doing but it is really about doing and so and then when you're out in the field doing your thing it really is about doing in that moment so how do they relate is that instead of putting doing first so i'm a human doer you know that that old kind of narrative is a little bit trite but the idea to reorganize and decouple the idea that i am what i do decouple the idea that i only matter based on what i do and what we're seeing is the best in the world are doing this very aggressive move that they're saying no no hold on i need to be first i need to make the commitment to be in the present moment because that's the key hole for high performance it's also the key hole for wisdom and love and beauty and true and good so i need to be committed to the being first and then let the doing flow from there so what does that mean be present be grounded be authentic be creative be skilled be first and then let's be loving be loving and then let the doing flow from there and so that that's a that's a revolution that is not yeah that's that's a revolution it's a revolution of organizat organizing thought to be able to flourish in any environment that you want to be in i'm excited to announce that the psychology podcast is expanding i've decided to work full time to make this podcast the best possible experience for you all so now in addition to our regular schedule of publicly available episodes we will also be adding additional episodes exclusive for patreon subscribers i think you're really going to love our new exclusive content and if we reach our monthly goal we will donate 10 of all proceeds to an organization dedicated to helping people with their mental health you can check out the psychology podcast patreon page by going to patreon.com psycpodcast that's p a t r e o n dot com psych podcast okay now back to the show this is why i consider you cinequan non in your lane like there's no one like michael gervais and i'm gonna explain why and i really do mean this you have been a meditator for 20 years right you've really practiced the art of being personally and you're simultaneously very much in the high performance space you tend to see you know people who are experimented they stay on the mountain in a lot of ways and and no disrespect to expert meditators listening to this podcast that just because you're not playing for the super bowl i don't think any less of you or you know on the super bowl field coaching but this is not a matter of comparison comparing you to others i'm just saying why your approach is so unique because you're combining this being aspect in a in a really high doing environment i i wonder on a personal level like does it ever give you do you ever face attention do you ever feel like there's that the being the doing part are kind of it's hard for you to to to integrate the two among the players that you that you coach oh yeah it's hard for me sometimes too and i've spent my life trying to sort out this relationship between the two being in doing and i'll tell you why is because okay let's be materialistic in a moment for a moment is that if the doing doesn't go well and in high performing environments the runway is short in the most consequential environments if you make a mistake and you were to perish or a loved one were to die like the runway is incredibly short with a mistake okay but then when you think about rugged environments like the nfl is a rugged environment and the performance standards are really high so it's like i think it's the first four games of the season is somewhere in there four to six games of the season is where coaches are getting fired based on based on what on the doing so here's the challenge on the just on the on the most basic level is that um and and i i want to talk about the dilemma in a moment but the challenge is if the doing isn't good enough people are are going home you know and so what does that mean if there's a there's an existential threat potentially to safety and and security and all those things that are so important you know to your work with maslow and so that that's that's a struggle and then the other part is like it's also like you want to see people do their very best but how how do people do their very best it is by committing to being and so you you actually can't just hear me say that and say yeah that sounds intellectually smart you have to really understand and embrace what it means to be fully present whether they're rubber bullets or live bullets what it means to be in a moment that is consequential and drop your hips and have that thing behind your eyes that is a force to be reckoned with whether it is a spiritual leader or somebody fighting for their family or somebody that is competing with teammates you know skill against skill and dropping your weight you know your hips and having that thing behind your eyes you recognize it when you're in it and there's something incredibly expansive when you are able to harness it and i imagine that's what dr king felt when he was on stage you know with his his beautiful speeches and i imagine that's what mandela was was feeling when he was writing his prose and i imagine that's what um buddha felt when he was underneath the tree you know like i imagine that's what scott barry kaufman is like when you know he puts together the final touches of like the commitment of his book like i imagine that that's that's what it's about like you're really able to be present and have some conviction about yourself at the same time be fluid and open and adapt to the unfolding unpredictable unknown which is man that is such an electric way of going through life for sure yeah i i often sometimes i'll go days i'll forget to eat i'll forget i forget call my mom back and that's bad that's really bad don't ever forget to call your mom back girls moms come back with a vengeance how often do you and your mom speak well we try to every day we try to every day you know it's uh same with my dad who's my you know my best friend really but anyway i don't want to take a detour but yeah i love i love a lot of what you're saying it's it's really great to kind of from here about someone who's all about being someone who's in the on the front lines in a way and i imagine the same principles right if i could be a part of the army could be applied to um you know if i was talking to someone in the navy seals they would probably tell me something very similar which is you know we're we have the goal right like do this and and they're pretty lofty goals but they're probably not thinking about the broader goal in the moment they're thinking about probably micro goals of of pure absorption in trying to survive and deal with certain situations is that right yeah and then after the age of like three we de-train ourselves away from the ability to be fully present you know because we've got all these um perceptions that we're working with and heuristics and you know we've got we've got noise and so this really is the practice the psychological practice of discovery and mental skills is really about being more proficient with the signal-to-noise ratio so what's the signal it's the present moment being where your body and your mind are doing the same thing and the noise or all the things whether they're internal distractions or external distractions are all it's all the noise that are pulling you from either having an unskilled mind or having a let's call it a lazy approach an undisciplined approach you know to being present um yeah so it's the signal to noise ratio it's an engineering term but i think it's a psychological term maybe even more importantly so oh absolutely um it's a lot of applicability for a lot of even down to like the dopamine level people views that you know in terms of like uh schizophrenics who have too much dopamine they have too much of noise and not so much of the signal of reality so that that metaphor has been used in so many ways to understand human psyche so you've introduced a concept in your book used that you say is one of the great constrictors of human potential and you call it fopo i love it mike i love it can you tell us a little what phopo is fear of people's opinion and um so good yeah i think did you coin that yeah yeah it was like it was an accident you know how things happen and um i think it's one of the great constrictors for modern times so remember our brain is trying to sort out survival and this is not there's no stretches i'm gonna make here but not long ago the great dangers of our our world were you know lions in the bush and and warring tribes and whatever so we had to be really attuned to our environment for survival and we don't have lines in the brush anymore you know that's not kind of what's happening but our brain our ancient brain is still attuned to the environment and so what are the great threats right now if it's not a lion well it's what people think of us and um it's heightened by our social media platforms that are sharing oh yeah what is wonderful it's the highlight reel of others and so it's creeped up on us i think in a pretty dramatic way is that one of the great constrictors fear is a constrictor literally from a neurochemical neuroelectrical neuromuscular approach creates an environmental constriction that um we end up playing it safe when we feel that um there's a threat and so the threat is being kicked out of the tribe not being good enough and so i think it's in modern times that's the one we're wrestling with otherwise why would why would people struggle so much to be on stage really what's at risk it's one thing it's what other people think of us that's it it's the only thing at stake and because the people don't well i'm afraid my pants are just gonna fall down or something spontaneously that's my fear oh my god has that ever happened never but i i did i think my fly was down once and that was horrible too i say same thing i was uh i was mortified it was a um halfway through the break and so it was like a a three-hour thing it was about halfway through the break someone comes up to me goes hey i just got to let you know i was like you got to be kidding me and they're like yeah so i've had i've had it too but you know i mean we've all been there yeah what are we going to do but here's the thing once you've done it and and and you make it through something i mean this is this is a point we can build up to anything in life i feel like it really gives me confidence that i can i'm not so scared fearful scareful i almost made up a word i'm not so fearful again you know of being in that situation because my worst case scenario kind of happened abraham mazzo talked a lot about this in terms of death he said if everyone could just die and then come back be resurrected our second life would be amazing i'm right there with you and i think sometimes we get a look at that when we break up or we lose a job or we get cut or fired is that we make some commitments to ourselves about how if we get another chance how we're going to do it and it's actually the origin story of how coach carroll ended up at usc is that he got fired twice from two different nfl jobs and looking back when if he was in the conversation he'd say you know i just i didn't fully commit when i was there i was trying to be half me half what the gm wanted half with the owner wanted half what the team wanted like and i was i just i didn't have a full commitment so he got fired from a second nfl job and he said i got to figure this out if i get another shot you know a at a potentially successful program i got to know who i am i got to know what is it that i'm going to stand for so he wrote pulled out spiral notebooks and just wrote and that's that's the beginnings of having a clear philosophy and so when he got a chance at usc he's like i know exactly how i'm going to do it and during the interview he's like this is how i'm going to approach it and the stat the hiring committee was like damn that sounds pretty damn good he says yeah but i gotta i gotta really go for it completely that's the authentic approach yeah and so part of what we do whether it's in our book or a course is that we walk people through a process to get more clear is that a right way to say you get greater clarity about your philosophy and so um it's a i think what's powerful about having a philosophy scott is that once you once you know who you are nobody can ever take it away from you no external experience no wind no loss no sneer from others no eye rolling no chuckle nothing that happens outside of you can ever take away your understanding of who you are and that's a very powerful piece of work that is profound especially i don't know if you have you heard of cancel culture i have when you're canceled you're saying you can still like even that can't take it away from you once you know who you are um nobody can ever take it away from you it's a it's it's a really really profound point yeah it is thinking about that a lot actually we can give it away right if we don't have kind of the internal skills and that's why knowing how to generate i know you know the scott but knowing how to generate calmness is a mental skill knowing how to generate confidence is a mental skill and it is not dependent on past success how about that for a thought yeah it only comes from one place which is what you say to yourself but what you say to yourself has to be rooted in credibility it has to be grounded in something that's authentic and real and hard and difficult so that you can earn the right to say to yourself i can do difficult things you know that's the essence of confidence is like i think i can go do that and that's a trainable skill why would we leave that up to chance i didn't learn it in third grade sixth grade ninth grade i didn't learn it in college i didn't learn it from sport matter of fact i got taught something uh the antithesis in sport which was be confident am i come on now just be confident and i say to myself as a kid what the are we talking about yeah what do you mean be confident but just believe in yourself well wait a minute like i'm terrified that i'm going to screw this thing up and everyone i'm going to let people down and mike come on just relax what are we talking how i hate all those things you just said when people say that to me oh it's yeah it's it's unskilled i'm freaking out just relax just relax you're freaking me out even more yeah it's it's an unskilled coach it's an unskilled you know um applied psychologist hey mike do you mind if i um bring in my friend here a second who's a terrific sports psychologist krista streicher she just wanted to ask you one or two questions would you mind come on the unfolding and the unpredictable unknown yeah let's go awesome she uh she she wrote the book the 12-minute athlete and she has that same app michael it's so nice to talk to you first of all i'm just gonna clarify i'm not a sports psychologist yet um but i'm aspiring and i'm your word just give me so much hope i just listen to the interview and like tearing up i just you i feel like you make everyone want to be better and it just gives me so much hope for humanity so thank you oh my goodness awesome sorry i'm crying very emotional right now yeah um so you know what we call this we call it clear in the tube yeah yeah so like before or after moments that are are important that we call it clearing the tube and if you can clear the tube more often in life we kind of end up holding on to less and it's um it's incredible and so thank you for the kind words i appreciate that let's take a brief pause as i talk about one of our sponsors care 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leaning into that that hard thing that the rest of us have really tough time with i was wondering if you had any thoughts on how the kind of average person the rest of us could love challenges more okay that it's a good question like i i don't think there's an easy answer to this but it does come down to something quite simple which is to make a decision you know like make the decision um how are you going to engage with difficult challenges how are you going to do it and if you make the decision and then like in the decisions quite simple it's like i i i know the challenges are coming and i want to tell you a couple stories as i go i know challenges are coming and i'm going to make a decision that when i'm in the inside the challenge or approaching the challenge that i'm going to fall in love with the exploration the adventure to see if i can be me and i can access my skills because that is the fundamental commitment i've made in life it's that this it's that clear of a decision right as most people haven't quite made the fundamental decision and they see challenge as something that they're just not skilled at so we've got to go upstream if you will or down to the roots if you will and say making that fundamental commitment and i want to share a story and karchikurai is one of the greats and he is a volleyball player and a coach he won gold medals at the olympics for beach and for indoor he's won medals as a coach at in beach and uh indoor i mean it's phenomenal and he also won on the pro circuit more medals than just about anybody and he also won in ncaa double college this is a is this skilled human with a fundamental commitment towards growth and improvement and he's got great skill uh great talent and skill layered on top of it his mental game is unprecedented and he loves competition so i had the chance of working with him in the last olympics and he says this to me he goes mike this was like year one of our four years together because we're going into the the 2016 games so year one of the games he says and he looks right at me he says mike nobody ever wins a gold medal without facing down a double-barreled shotgun and i just looked at him and i'm smiling and like like inside and i'm just grinning ear to ear and he goes let's prepare our team for the double-barreled shotguns every day i was like yeah that's a fundamental that only comes from somebody who understands what it means to get after it and embracing like this this idea that real challenges are coming and so that's one story i want to share with you the second story i want to share with you is that um this happens just about every season at the beginning of the season the football season or any season for people is that nope nobody can do the extraordinary alone as you would recognize it's too complicated it's too big it's too it's just too big you know to do the extraordinary yeah so we need each other so what happens preseason is that um we share this vision we share this shared mission of you know what what we're gonna do together hopefully and then we lock arms we say okay let's lock our arms here and when we lock arms we agree that we're gonna do this thing together and have each other's back but then at the moment that some real stress happens some real pressure some consequences perceived a real happen you know what people do that are untrained they unlock their arms and the system phrase the ecosystem phrase so those that stay locked in embrace the second fundamental commitment that we need each other so if you can embrace this idea that challenges are an opportunity to see and get some feedback about my ability to be me based on my character strengths like the tone the style of me and my mental skills which allow me to access my craft if it's just a feedback loop that's what it is and you know that you need more feedback loops and the second part is that we need to be connected to other people and so can we access our ability to be ourselves in consequential rugged environments at the same time be connected to others so it's just a feedback loop that's all this is and then the third piece is know the mental skills that you need help with is it relaxing and being more calm is it deeper focus is it the self chatter you know the confidence inner narrative and there's only a handful of mental skills to work on optimism control i'm sorry optimism um confidence being calm deep focus are kind of the big four for me and if you struggle on any one of those you can back into them and that's that's kind of how it works for me so you talk a lot about having a craft that you're working toward you feel like people need to have a craft to get better it's a good question that's a really good question is what is the craft well it's the form of expression whether that craft is parenting or it is finances as a cfo or it's management of people you know as a director or leader or it is a psychologist or an athlete is certainly easy to look at or an artist i think that the craft is our mechanism to express you say well what is scott barry kaufman's craft his his is certainly ideas and communicating ideas both in written form and verbal form and um i would say the same for me you know like and so what is your craft how do you articulate your craft through writing and i mean writing and ideas and through fitness because i love the connection between the mind and the body it's amazing mm-hmm it's complicated isn't it yeah for sure it's amazing yeah there you go you get to test out all of these mental skills that's great i forgot about my body i forgot i'm supposed to work my body too it's it is it is definitely the vehicle isn't it it's the it's the the carriage if you will it for sure is oh thank you so much oh my pleasure yeah good to meet you thank you so much that was really generous of you to talk to uh an aspiring uh michael gervais oh please yeah yeah that was fun yeah she's great um i really recommend her book a nap uh so let me just end with asking this question i thought it was a really interesting question you asked in your book and that's how do the best let go and trust themselves it just ties so much of what we're talking about today and this you know what does confidence mean what how can we just at the end of the day learn to trust our being well really what that's about is figuring out in the most credible way and how do you earn credibility is going through hard things challenges if you will is that you have the inner skills to be able to adjust to the unfolding unpredictable the unknown and so that's how you learn to trust yourself that you can say things to yourself like you know what i don't want i don't want suffering i don't want conditions in my life that will trigger suffering but i know that i will figure it out right that i know how to be kind to myself i know how to be strong i know how to be confident calm and focused those are the kind of substrate if you will i have a fundamental belief that from an optimistic framework that the future is going to work out and that's how we learn to trust ourselves is by going through difficult times it's how we become forged it's how steel becomes forged as well and so this idea that we're going to escape hardship or challenge is a bit naive and so when we run to it we get more skilled at it and it is one of the things that athletes do well is that they are highly skilled at being engaged in the unfolding unpredictable environments the unknown if you will because every competition they go into is unknown and so they're actually quite skilled at knowing how to trust themselves and better skilled maybe at trusting themselves than others so step one is trust of self step two is trust of others so beautiful michael thank you so much for for coming on the psychology podcast a repeat performer on the psychology podcast and for offering everyone your uh your really tremendous wisdom today hey scott i appreciate your generativity i appreciate what you stand for i love your book um plural as well and so i i and i love our friendship so thank you for uh sharing me with your community thank you i love our friendship too thanks for listening to this episode of the psychology podcast if you'd like to react in some way to something you heard i encourage you to join in on the discussion at the psychologypodcast.com if you can please add a rating and review on itunes i read all the reviews and really appreciate your feedback also for additional exclusive must listen to episodes check out our new patreon page at patreon.com psycpodcast that's p-a-t-r-e-o-n dot com psych podcast thanks for being such a great supporter of the show and tune in next time for more on the mind brain behavior and creativity

Channel: The Psychology Podcast

Views: 1,602

Keywords: psychology, podcast, Scott Barry Kaufman

Id: 8h5x_VdmIVc

Length: 63min 47sec (3827 seconds)

Published: Thu Jul 16 2020