Michael Eric Dyson vs. Eddie Glaude on Race, Hillary Clinton and the Legacy of Obama's Presidency

this is democracy now democracynow.org are two weeks of to our specials daily breaking with convention war peace in the presidency I'm Amy Goodman we're broadcasting this week from the Democratic National Convention here in Philadelphia to talk more about the convention Hillary Clinton Donald Trump and President Obama's legacy we're joined by two guests Eddie Glaude is chair of the Department of African American Studies at Princeton University his most recent book is democracy in black how race still in slaves the American soul he recently wrote an article for Time magazine headlined my Democratic problem with voting for Hillary Clinton also with us Michael Eric Dyson Georgetown University professor author of many books including the black presidency Barack Obama and the politics of race in America last November he wrote a cover article for The New Republic titled yes she can why Hillary Clinton will do more for black people than Obama professors Michael Eric Dyson and Eddie Glaude thanks so much for joining us well let's start with You professor Dyson on this issue of why Hillary Clinton you say will do more for African Americans than President Obama well I was making that argument in the context of a host of things the least not the least of which is that a president obama for a variety of reasons has been hamstrung has been disinclined to deal with race has been hesitant in procrastinating about engaging race and i think that hillary clinton for for many other those many of those reasons will be more forthcoming she's spoken I think very intelligently about implicit bias she has asked white people to hold themselves accountable v's ivy white privilege she's been talking about systemic racism as well as individual acts of bigotry and violence so I think in the aggregate when we look at the degree to which she is capable because of that very white privilege to speak about race in a way that Obama even if he chose to be more forthcoming would be categorized and put in a black box in a certain way that she has the drive the intelligence the ability and the privilege to speak about it in a way that he is perhaps not only disinclined to do so but may be restricted in his own mind professor Eddie Glaude well you know I understand the the claim around the limits or the constraints face Obama face but I think the claims around Hillary Clinton are basically aspirational because there's no real there are no real there's no real evidence in her immediate past of any kind of genuine and deep concern about the material conditions of black life and so in other words what I'm suggesting is that part of what what what the problem is that we can't infer from anything that she's done that when she gets in office that she's going to change and address the circumstances of black folk in any substantive way are the most vulnerable in it as a substantive way because at the end of the day I think Hillary Clinton is a corporate Democrat that she is committed to a neoliberal economic philosophy what is neoliberal well the neoliberal economic philosophy involves a kind of understanding that notion of the public good is is kind of undermined by a basic market luggage logic that turns us all into entrepreneurs where competition and rivalry define who we are where the states principle function right is to secure the efficient functioning of the economy and the defense and creating the market conditions whereby you and I can produce can pursue our own self-interest and part of what that does if we only read it as an economic philosophy and not understand it as a kind of political rationality producing particular kinds of subjects who are selfish who are self-interested who are always in competition with one another then we lose sight of how neoliberalism attacks the political imagination so the interesting question that I ask of Hillary Clinton is that will she fundamentally change the circumstances that are at the heart of the problem facing this country in fact I think she's illustrative of the problem confronting the country well I mean that's interesting I mean obviously I agree with your analysis of neoliberalism in in terms of dissecting the constituent elements that that make up what my vision is we'd have to given what you were talking about in terms of self-interest in competition we'd have to say Bernie Sanders exhibits in a profound way some of the same elements if that becomes the litmus test yeah right so so if we're all in it that means then the distinction makes no difference because ultimately if you're talking about the affecting the material conditions of black people I think that not only does she vote ninety-three percent of the same way that Bernie Sanders voted say as an as one if you will lodestar for what a progressive politics might look like it's not simply about inference it's about the fact that she spent her time working with Marian Wright Edelman it's about the way in which as a first lady she championed causes that black people could not only be concerned about but were involved with it's not only the fact that as a senator and then as a Secretary of State her awareness of what ethnicity and race and of course gender those differences might make at least provide the platform for her to articulate that vision and more especially in the aftermath of racial crisis in America she has responded in a way to mobilize the public understanding of those interests so for me if material interests are the predicate for us determining the legitimacy or efficacy of a particular policy yeah it's aspirational but I want that aspiration to be about taking black life seriously I want that aspiration to be about what we can do to transform the fundamental condition of our people and I know given the fact that cory booker has a prominent blurb on your book that supporting you right way I know you disagree but I'm saying you disagree with him but you're still in league with him in terms of your analysis of what happens even though and I'm a fan of cory booker but the devastating analysis of the consequences of neoliberalism in newark literally so i'm saying so all of us are going to be associated with people though who are not perfect but like we got to figure out a way to transform this hundred no nobody's trying to occupy nobody's trying to occupy pure pristine space we don't have dirty right but let's be honest right in terms of wicking all the people have been talking about her work with metal where Marian Wright Edelman you know we know about the brother Peter left the Clinton White House for a reason right what did he leave it for us because not only her see this is what we wanted we want to attribute chip to her right when we know Senator Edward Kennedy was leading that charge she had to convince the White House in order to support chip right but we know what welfare reform did what did it do it moved all these folk off the rolls I'm with right as as as poverty increased and increased extreme deep extreme deep but I haven't know but I know I know you do so I'm so part of that we need to understand right what do we talk how do we talk about her response to those babies those children right who are leaving the violence were who were fleeing the violence of Honduras in Central America we got to send them back right right how do we respond to an economic full and economic philosophy right that holds Wall Street in high regard and Main Street in particular sorts of ways right as second heir in certain sorts of ways so part of what I'm suggesting here Breck is not that I'm trying to defend Bernie Sanders right as you say that's just one bloom right of the blossom of Democratic awakening a node in place in this country what I'm saying is we need to understand who Hillary Clinton is just as we need to understand who Barack Obama is know that I'm part of and what I take it to be is that part of what these folks are are their representatives of the corporate wing of the Democratic Party these folk right it's been on their watch let me try and build welfare bill that didn't handling glass-steagall it's been on their watch you ain't no doubt ain't no doubt about that but here's the bottom line and here's the context is the same basketball you got to deal with what the defense gives you we are talking about Donald Trump which I'm out Hillary Clinton in the context let's bring it back to reality we're talking about we're gonna react we've been in a serious reality that is abstract and considering the philosophical consequences of particular ideologies what I'm saying in light of the real-life circumstances we face now we're talking about the choice between Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton and of course Jill Stein and the libertarian candidate but I'm talking out those who got a real chance to win and when we're talking about those who had a real chance to win if we're concerned about the very people you're speaking about and I are going to be fine whether Donald Trump is president or whether Hillary Clinton is president in terms of our material conditions but the people that we claim ostensibly to represent those whose voices we want to amplify by our visions by our own reflections upon the conditions they confront ain't no doubt in my mind that Hillary Clinton represents the only possibility to at least address the undeniable lethargy of a political system neoliberalism in particular more broadly the kind of epic sweep and tide of capital in its impact on the conditions of working class and poor black people but I'm saying ain't nobody got a possibility of doing none of that in a canoe in a context where where Donald Trump is the president it may mobilize and galvanize grassroots movements that will articulate their resistance against him what it will not be able to do is leverage the political authority of the state in defense of those vulnerable bodies it's not been perfect but it certainly represents a huge advantage over a possibility of a Donald Trump resume this point really cool right so it is the case that we have to keep Donald Trump out of the White House but it's also the case that under current condition 38 percent plus the 40 percent of the children in the United States and welling up in poverty in my home state of Mississippi 50 percent of black children are living in poverty right it is the case under these current conditions with rock obama in the office it is the case hi doc Freddie Gray's mother is still grieving that's right Ricky a boy's mom is still grieving him with right we can just like we can call the road I'm with you call the role so part of what we're saying is that one of the things we have to do we have to do two things simultaneously one is keep Donald Trump out of office and to write announced that business as usual is unacceptable yeah but so what does that mean if you're gonna pee don't know of course if it's gonna mean that if it's a priority know if it's gonna mean I'm ready to make the claim it's gonna mean that the fear of electing Donald Trump cannot be the principal motivation of how we engage politically absolutely right on must be no that's a very limited concern owner of the car because your ID your ideals will be subverted undermine marginalize and totally put to the memory here have a proof and then a diamond set around the demos no no I'm saying an A to D Moses the demon I'm talking about in the demon right now in my mind is it's Donald Trump I'm saying if we don't make that the priority of preventing the flourishing of an ethic of a politic and of a conception of the state much less of the global theaters within which America operates if we don't prevent Donald Trump from ascending so to speak to that throne all the legitimate stuff that you and I agree on any analysis you make you if you read my book on President Obama I'll lay all that stuff out there I'll lay out the way in which black lives have been decentered in terms of their economic and social stability and furthermore when you talk about the degree to which black life matters if that is do you think in a Donald Trump presidency not only can we not acknowledge that black lives matter we can't even see a black lives can exist on a particular kind of plane that represents anything like democracy so I'm saying that's the priority and if that is addressed we I don't want to reduce all of the complicated political energy in America to electoral politics but electoral politics is a crucial wedge that can be inserted into the contemporary political scene so to at least be able to make a change so we've already agreed on a basic claim right the basic claim is that we need to keep Donald Trump out of office no doubt that's the right word as a priority right right and as an additional power not as not a secondary bravery we need to announce the business-as-usual Zahn it said I'm down with what she seemed to be supporting business as usual because Hillary Clinton no matter what they try to rebrand her over these over these next few days over these over this last few days right no matter how they try to brand her as a change maker she is the poster child right of the corporate of the corporate takeover of the Democratic Party she's the poster child of Blue Dog Democrats I would even say of a certain kind of conservative tendency in the in the Democrat so what does no I mean it's agree with that blonde oh of course we can we can we can we can we can we can debate that I might overstated the case there mean for us to be committed to a radical conception of democracy I'm down with the rent I know but you seem to be putting forward a kind of me burying realism you know right i mean it is it no I've done in part what is sort of a mini existential anxiety in the face of no reaping demagoguery sends Rangers that renders our our philosophy ossificans is abstract because it's a real world that you claim to be concerned about what we are concerned about is how black people and poor people and people of color and people across the board who are vulnerable I'm consented in a politics of representation in our democracy what I'm concerned about Mike is what you know as well as I do is that political scientists have said that black folk are captured electorate that is to say the Republican Party doesn't have to care about what we do and the Democratic Party every four two four six years coming to our community and try to hurt us to the polls like we're cattle she wouldn't come with you on and then they have no obligation no obligation to deliver on policy but so she shows up she shows up and hold up hold up she shows up in a church right come to churches coming to our communities and when we talk about policy how are you addressing the leg of the legacy I want you on that soso point important point pot so did but if you with me on that right how is it then that a Democratic Democratic candidate can come into our community coming to this moment where all of this suffering where you and I have laid it out in both of our books all this suffering is engulfing our communities when we look at the back of Barack Obama's head what's gonna be behind it are the ruins of black communities the ruins of the most vulnerable re-entry and then we get business as usual but we never ever and only because we are afraid of Donald Trump and not understanding our power then you know what to do but what is both in Islam away and on the Sun Wednesday night he said no one is more qualified than Hillary Clinton to serve as president even in the midst of crisis she listens to people and she keeps her cool and she treats everybody with respect and no matter how daunting the odds no matter how much people try to knock her down she never ever quits that is the Hillary I know that's the Hillary I've come to admire and that's why I can say with confidence there has never been a man or a woman not me not bill nobody more qualified than Hillary Clinton to serve as president of the United States of America that's President Obama on Wednesday night addressing Oh 17 18 thousand people who packed in to the Wells Fargo Convention Center professor Dyson well first of all the importance of that statement was to mitigate the vicious lethal legacy of sexism that is has been skum so normalized that we don't even pay attention to it but let me get back to the point we're making before before the break of Obama's rhetoric the point is that why is it that we reduce the complicated legacy of our freedom struggle to present moments Howard Thurman the great prophetic mystic said refused the temptation to reduce the level to reduce your dreams to the level of the event which is your immediate experience and what I'm arguing for brother Eddie is that we pull upon the very romantic in the best sense of that word conceptions of self-determination and the flourishing of black agency all those technical terms in other words for black people to get stuff done under impossible circumstances the reason I can maintain the hopefulness and niebuhr since you brought him up talked about the difference between optimism and hope Optimus is a shallow virtue hope is a deep virtue even in the face of impossibility I happen to believe in a religious and spiritual reality that has been manifest politically that has motivated black people from the get-go and what that says is I don't care what you put before me I don't care what's going on I'm not going to give in to what's happening if you talk about as tough now Martin Luther King jr. Ralph Abernathy Ella Baker were operating under conditions where black people didn't even have the franchise if black people were able to leverage their political authority and especially their moral compelling arguments their narratives and their stories in defense of their vulnerable bodies who bodies who are we now with enormous access to the vote to limit the impossibility of the situation as if this choice between maintaining a conception of the flourishing of black people under impossible circumstances versus putting down on Trump in office let's do both let's both acknowledge that Donald Trump is the most immediate priority to be prevented and then at the same time as you say speak about these other interests but it doesn't mean it has to be either/or why can't we do both why can't we put Hillary Clinton in office the way you have conversation with Cory Booker the way you have engagements in a elite white institution you ain't teaching and Howard and neither am i all of our hands are dirty wet right wait but I mean you ain't I'm saying hi Cory I guess you ain't mad that my son graduate from there mark Hill what's up professor there but my point is that it's not an either/or situation and I think that what you say I agree with but what I don't agree with is deferring the legitimacy of the priority of Donald Trump being stopped from occupying space that will bring if it's bad now it's gonna be if it's a Bobby won't make anything if you think you're lonely now wait into the night until Donald Trump becomes president Lord who do you want to see as president uh with these two choice in this election that's also chose hungry I have all I have no interest I don't you don't think it matters whether I don't want Donald Trump to be in office I can only put it at the naked in the negative well that's that's that's good enough yeah I'm only gonna put it out with you don't want Donald Trump to be in office how would you prevent that so part of what I've been arguing and I've wrote this piece with Fred Harris that pullout political scientist at Columbia that we should vote strategically and that is to say if you're an african-american or if you're a person of color your progressive of conscience who's where the word actually means something right in a swing state it makes all the sense in the world to me in a battleground state that you vote for Hillary Clinton because one of the objectives is to keep Donald Trump out of office but if you're in a red state like my mom and dad my mom and daddy in Mississippi right they're Democrats but we know Mississippi's going Trump right what do you do you can you can actually blank out you can leave the presidential ballot blank you can vote for third party interests right because what will happen in that moment you will actually 2020 be given the turnout how many people vote for the presidential the Democratic candidate will actually impact the number of delegates that come from that state to the convention in 2020 I'm in a blue state I'm talking straight because part of what we have to do is shift the center of gravity of how African Americans engage the political process because this is what 1924 James Weldon Johnson says it's almost as if the Negro vote quote has already been practically prepackaged and sealed to believe to be to be delivered before they vote in 1956 why I won't vote w eb Dubois why it's this piece and says I reject the lesser of two evils we got 1965 Malcolm X said we should treat the ballot like a bullet and until we get our targets that keep our ballot in our pockets right so part of what I'm saying hold up Mike you will never love you invoked the grandness of the tradition I'm giving you examples but what does it mean right to think strategically about the vote and what does it mean to actually embrace a radical Democratic vision if you are a centrist liberal on that right here's your knot then embrace a different kind of what I'm saying you have a centrist liberal but you got a centrist liberal on your book you you engage well let me let me let me finish let me finish but what I'm saying to you making my point even more but what I've seen do you map your place known as but if you ain't claiming appear space don't claim a space that sounds to most black people I listen this is the problem with these negro intellectuals you talking about an abstract articulation let me finish of grand principles and possibilities when the woman asked you or is in our tradition xu who you gonna vote for you stumbling in the stammering that's going hold on what i'm saying you you you had a pregnant pause it delivered in birth skin i think what what i've sent you and that is not neutral as you know better than anybody else that's not a neutral thing and and I wish that black people were political scientists who could adjudicate competing claims about rationality on the one hand and demagoguery on the other I'm telling you at the end of the day the black people you're concerned about the vulnerable to view concerned about can't make distinctions if you're a taboo state or in a red state they can't color booklet like that what they have to understand is the the hunter that is in the offing with donald trump coming into office has to be resisted go out and vote for hillary clinton because a vote for Hillary huntin preserves the possibility that the very dialog that Professor Claude and I are having the very possibility of evoking a grand tradition of Dubois and Malcolm X and James Weldon Johnson however none of them got you to vote Martin Luther King jr. Thurgood Marshall Ella Baker those are the linchpins in the narrative of black resistance to white supremacy social injustice and economic inequality that have delivered I agree that we should study this in class but on your ass you should go out in both of Hillary Clinton who makes a tremendous difference this is the thing you have to have a fundamental faith in everyday ordinary people what you represent what you're representing is abstract is actually condescending to them now I can imagine my people members even I can imagine black youth project 100 organizing in Chicago they drown this particular issue Tim this is what you need to do don't worry about who's gonna brother who's gonna be elected and selected by the Democrat in a democratic department we're gonna get this da out of office let's do boys do dream difference then no I'm trying you trying to sell her Anthony we don't try what you try to suggest is that everyday ordinary people can't distinguish between blue and red but we're talking about is organizing no no I did suggest a Mustang which the kind of abstract political principles you talk about as if your red sate in the blue state I'm saying the be organized but women well can i but it's not you don't it's not either/or let's see this is the thing but it's not either/or if it's the key it's not either/or that is the case Mike is it either/or let me ask you this question using either the strategic plan that I'm suggesting suggests that it isn't either okay that's all we're saying but we agree but see the thing is it a child here stopping for I'm out here stumping for a tradition of black liberation of hamilton's who are all not doing women week our tradition till I met you ask you it's not that I have to abstractly link it to it I am the embodiment of that when I'm out there on the streets preaching I don't know about you but I'm preaching in churches every Sunday I'm out there helping I didn't ask you that I'm telling you what I'm doing I'm telling you I'm in in churches with black people preaching every Sunday I'm talking about the way in which we leverage the political moral and spiritual authority of ordinary black people who when we when I walk out the without when you and I walk out this place ordinary black people gonna look at me and see me is the embodiment of their dreams I'm sure it happens to you as well they stop me and tell me thank you they congratulate me for at least having the authority the the courage I don't take that seriously but what I take more seriously is their identification with me as a voice piece for their aspirations and hopes and all I'm saying to you sir is that I agree with you in the full sweep of your analysis I'm saying the everyday ordinary black folk I know that I'm in contact with then I'm with it political organizations and I'm on the front line when I spoke yesterday for the the black caucus of the Democratic National Convention when those thousand they're two thousand people said what you say represents that all I'm saying to you Eddie is that at the end of the day we cannot afford the luxury of engaging in abstract reflections on the conditions of black people when what's at stake is a demagogue that you and I both resist that you and I both think is problematic getting into office once that happens then we begin to leverage byp we begin to also articulate a countervailing narrative that says it ain't either/or as both and I believe in the spirit of our people to overcome and prevail against the odds we're going to break and then come back to this discussion we are joined by Princeton professor Eddie Glaude his article in Time magazine my Democratic problem with voting for Hillary Clinton and Professor Michael Eric Dyson who you were just listening to Georgetown professor and author of the black presidency Barack Obama and the politics of race in America he just wrote a piece in The New Republic headline yes she can why Hillary Clinton will do more for black people than Obama this is democracy

Channel: Democracy Now!

Views: 209,524

Rating: 4.729001 out of 5

Keywords: Democracy Now, Amy Goodman, DN, News, Politics, democracynow.org, Video, Independent Media, Daily News, Breaking News, World News, Interview, Eddie Glaude, Princeton University, Georgetown University, Michael Eric Dyson, Hillary Clinton, Bernie Sanders, Donald Trump, Election 2016, DNCinPHL, DNC 2016, DemsInPhilly, Democratic National Convention, Neoliberalism, Debate, U.S. Politics, Welfare Reform, Honduras, Jill Stein

Id: oc0l69JRdNo

Length: 25min 51sec (1551 seconds)

Published: Wed Aug 03 2016

Reddit Comments

[u/Return_Of_Captain]

Dr.Glaude really articulated very well the issue of voting for Hillary and Dr.Dyson really just insulted the intelligence of the black community. If we get black intellectuals like Dr.Glaude up on the forefront we can really get some things done. We need political scientists like Glaude much more than we need Dyson.

[u/BlasianTyga]

Dyson's a partisan hack. A literal vote sharecropper. The type of nigga whose idea of community outreach is advising people like Hillary Clinton to win black votes not by putting forth concrete policies to economically better the situation many black people find themselves in today due to past racial oppression and neoliberal policies, but with shitty pop culture references like "hot sauce in my bag" and dabbing on stage. Fuck you, Dyson and fuck you, Roland "Do You Know How To Wobble?" Martin. You still haven't earned your forgiveness.