Mew2king Analyzes Summit 11 Grand Finals

what frame does the mustache get wet what frame does the muscles get wet um [Music] wait i is he avoiding it i think he's getting it to the beard only i don't see wait what frame does the mustache get wet now i'm uh thinking about wait i don't i dumbo says he's drinking his hair every time i i don't see any wetness on this so i i don't i i don't know the frame probably should get studied harder i'm asking what can i not ask information human is this some this is important [Music] all right guys let's get right into the video all right guys grand finals analysis starting right now oh sorry how how rude of me the mouse is in the way okay okay all right no all right okay i'll get it uh okay okay okay okay okay i can't talk oh we're already almost into it if i go here okay right grand finals match analysis shut up shut up wait come on mango drink water now i want water i get water what what what experience you're doing what are you talking about oh my god that would be it is so really funny i try to analyze but get distracted and and that's that's its own youtube video and then the next video is my the actual analysis of summit there's actually enough content for the first video you just said as a joke shadow strategy that's the worst part okay all right jokes aside let's get right into it i've i have watched this once when it happened um but now i'm actually gonna like i haven't actually analyzed it i just watched it like casually once uh like maybe like once and a half um so i did watch this once but i haven't analyzed it yet so let's get right into it uh this is uh well for those that didn't i don't want to spoil the result everyone knows by now um mango zane grand finals and manga was going fox this pretty pretty much the whole tournament or not the whole tourney but he uses falco against foxes when he fights a fox he likes to go falco i think in other specific matchups he also excused falco but he definitely favored morph uh he definitely favored fox the majority of this turret by far so let's get right into it and normally zane starts out with um he's always trying to zone with the fares or downtowns to get some damage and then get a grab and mango's game plan is usually it's not real to laser camp he likes to aim he likes to mix up undershooting aiming at people and overshooting and trying to guess what are you thinking and where are you going to be like 0.2 seconds in the future are you going to be in front of me i'm going to undershoot are you going to dash back i'm going to overshoot he's just going to try to predict you and read you a lot where zane is going to try to kind of like make a wall so that like if the fox approaches he'll get he'll get swung at and then tries to lead those to grabs which can do big damage although it's a lot more complicated than that but those are some of the basic game plans so people aren't like used to melee it's obviously very very very substantially more complicated than that though but that's like some of the some of the basic idea oh yeah and uh here uh you could uh you can sdi uh the up throw so the way this works so basically what so here for those who are new to melee i'll just describe this um sdi is not the same as di di is where you just hold direction and you change your angle up to 18 degrees used for getting out of combos surviving longer and stuff but for if if you just do that for fox's upper both hits connect easily but if you smash di which is the first i think it's the first three or four frames you get hit during those three or four frames you could actually teleport your body if you put have the stick in neutral uh the stick in neutral and then you slam the stick far um in one direction then uh like i think you have to go at least from like neutral to like 75 of the way in a direction or something at once and then if you do it in a short period of time you can get one sdi input which is enough for up air you could also do it like coder in does and just press straight left to down left or straight left to down to up left or something and you have a chance of getting two sdi inputs but you want to get at least one and if you do that right here so it's like one two three four see and then what happens is the second hit misses um it's not as easy as it looks uh if you watch zine all the time you're gonna think it's really easy but uh the thing is it's not as easy as it looks and you also have to kind of guess when fox is gonna do the up air because fox could jump and do the upper right away or it could delay it a bit or it could delay it even more and depending on a lot of details on fox's end on timing and spacing both players actually do have to do a guesswork so since it's unreactable when he does the up air yeah you have to kind of guess based on when you see him get up throw it or when he jumps so in a way at endgame meta yeah you could always theoretically do it but when you factor in human reaction time and mix up some both players there is an element of luck because you can't always do it every time for those reasons but yeah it is it is dangerous because if fox gets the upper he gets up or up or up there or a lot of hits and you can also do backer instead or four days and other things right or just if he knows you're going to sdi and falling aerial you can just go under them and up till so there's a lot of different counter plays and code delays upgrades and stuff there's a lot of counter plays but it's it's risky because if you do the basic rising up air and st is it marv can di sdi way and then do a fair or empty land to grab which can reverse the situation but the thing is fox has a lot of mix-ups that you don't necessarily have to do just that one and just by mixing up the timing there's unreactable guesses that marv has to take a lot of people don't know that though because they don't play the game even a lot of top foxes don't know that so i just wanted to give that away oh and right here i'll show what he's doing um so this is a thing uh if right here you'll kind of just be like hey fox i just want you to tech roll please tech roll so he does this and if the fox tech rolls so when fox tech rolls there's four forty four zero frames that he can't move uh but if he texts in place or doesn't tech it's 26 frames he can't move and in 27 he could start having invincibility and stuff so that's like a 14 frame difference right that 14 frame difference means if he wave lands on this platform he'll still have time to re-wrap but it's a gamble because right now manual could have literally just done an attack see when you air when you have an air dodge landing like there's 10 frames there's 10 frames of landing lag when you land from an air dodge with every character on every height including wave dashes so um by landing here mango could have actually shined or just deaded an attack and mango could have actually just attacked zane right now if you wanted to but for some reason he didn't but he could have uh zane gambled that it was gonna be a tech role and it ended up being wrong and then now mango could have reversed the situation if you wanted to or if he could if he if he realized it um also good to note that uh you know so that's what happens here but watch also it's good to mention that here now as i said you can tuck in place to avoid that mix-up but uh morph could either do an up air or forward smash or an up tilt so marv could either up tilt wave dash to here so mark could even f-smash this tech in place which also covers mistake which also covers tech world to the right covering everything except secret to the left or mark could wave dash here and then reverse up to attempt to cover all four options i think it's possible but covering all four is extremely difficult because you have to like you do a long wave dash and then you start the up top while you're still sliding to the left and that covers this tech but it also can cover there but it's very very difficult and it's something i learned back i taught myself in like 2007 2006 and i feel like people are still not doing as good as they could but it's it's a really good thing um and then you could also up air the tech in place but technically you can do to slide off on the upper but then you know it's a lot of things you can do different things counter different stuff um yeah that's uh some of the basics of how that situation happened so basically it's a 50 50. um you could also up air that's already taken place or four or you could forward it because if they try to do to slide off here and you 40 you can kind of protect yourself it's hard to say what objectively is the best because there's so many options on both sides uh basically upthrowing is a 50 50. um but it's not really i don't want to summarize it to just that so that's that's why that happened mango could have punished him and so right here mango see how he's angling his shield down mango's always crowds cancelling he's like he's always wanting to crouch because crowds cancel in melee and project m and project plus are broken crowds canceling is broken and you should always be spamming cancer because it's broken thank you tommy tank thanks for the resub yeah the analysis is going to be long and by the way guys since we're still earlier in the video i do want to mention that if you guys do want to get better at melee or ultimate or any smash game i do coaching uh i'm actually i don't know the correct way to say this but i'm probably the best at what i do um so if you want to get really good at uh melee or ultimate and you want to help support me at the same time uh in the youtube description and my twitter bio and my twitch extermination coaching or medified.gigi slash outside meets king you could book with me and i can help you get a lot better i know i'm not joking when i say no way too much but i'm also very good at making people better as i've done for so many people probably a lot more people than you guys can even imagine anyway back to the matches ma'am so right here mango does a running shine uh mango is always doing running shine because that's like something he's really good at especially a fox he's always been about the running shine because if it has a chance of aiming at them you have frame advantage after shine assuming all mix-up trees are done by both sides and you can still have a chance of getting the overshoot it doesn't cover the undershoot as well but it covers in place and overshoot and gives you a combo in the same place and it's a it's just something he's good at and this time it's it's a good uh you know it's it's typical to like have a wave that see how uh after the shine manga uh zane did a wave that set a shield so um it's pretty common for like oh there's a lot i could do i could light shield i could roll i could wave that's left i could wave that's right i could down or out of shield any aerial out of shield that you want forward like zane could do any aerial shield he could wave that's left right light shield can't wait like but but then everything is counter played if you know they're gonna wait and shield camping you could shine grab right but if you know they're going to retreat to the right you just go there if you know they're going to retreat to the left you go there like downers like there's so many mix-ups that are done on both sides it would be too much to explain so i'm just going to stop here but basically the moment you shine it's a mix-up game where both fox and marv have a lot of options but fox has the advantage overall so when fox or falco's shine marf shield it's a mix-up tree for both parties but the space animal has the advantage when all possible options are considered on both sides in terms of risk reward and likelihood the win the next interaction that's the short version but um the long version is like way too long so i'm just going to stop there well at least for this analysis um thank you jake dk for the resub and right here uh zayn does this a lot where zane zane seems to do this a lot where he's he goes on the platform and uh then he runs off and does this i i also do this thing like i used to short hop sometimes and i know double jump waveland and do fairs here funny fact i actually did that a lot fc diamond in 2007. i really wish they had the replays of that so i can prove that what i'm saying is true but unfortunately they lost the video proof of that but this is something i did a lot in uh 2007 very often where i would like short hop here that would threaten the possibility of fair but it also threatened i could wave lane left or right on my landing or i could double jump in a waveland and then approach here and by falling here i also can get a fair grab attempt or a wavelength there so um that's that's some 2007 stuff that i figured out a long time ago and it's still relevant today because it adds an unreactable mix up if they're not expecting it but then you can also mix up ford air which is a really broken move because it only has seven frames laney wag just like fox is near um and it combos this is really good consistent damage but you can also mix that with waveland at super top level and right here we tried to get the grab but uh it just didn't work out and i think zane misses jc see uh and then he just has the positional advantage man this is i might need to do this analysis faster i just realized i actually go way too hard in analysis and it's pa a lot of stuff i'm saying is probably gonna go over your head so maybe i shouldn't do that i just realized this is going to take too long if i go as hard as i could so maybe i need to i need i need to hold back i think for this to be done in a timely manner i have to think how to compromise this all right now right here um actually zayn is a stupid head uh because if zayn did the so the reason zayn is a stupid head here is because um see i think if fox is above uh so i think if i'm not 100 sure i could be wrong but i think if fox is at 50 at 58 or higher i'm not as i said i'm not 100 sure there's a possibility of me being wrong here but i think if fox is at 59 plus no matter what if you can upgrade the whole platform and and there's no possibility of sliding off so see how zane did this jump here he's he's stupid for doing that um because he could have just up aired here and covered all four options with a guaranteed upper there was no benefit of doing this he he's focused on covering center stage because he's for some reason scared he doesn't have to be when he can just cover all four options and because of his number being just the right number there's no possibility of slide-off again this could be incorrect information but i don't currently think it is but if i am wrong feel free to let me know because that'd be useful to know and then look see a stupid head gets punished as a result no i didn't say stupid i said stupid head is a big difference and zane's trying to cover see zayn does this thing where he does fair he does an aerial and he does dash left right and then shield stop and then jump it's it's pretty common no you can't you can't slide off the up air if you do strong up air at 59 percent or higher and you can only slide out from like i think it's i don't know the exact number i think i fought for fox it's like 0-58 um but you don't need i think if you're 59 or higher i could be mistaken but it's something it's something very close to what i'm saying i'm pretty sure 59 doesn't let you slide off at least not the typical c6 straight down ctrl 6 straight left or right method so that's why i don't agree if what you just said in chats uh anyway if i'm wrong feel free to let me know okay um so he gets this grab and right here he can do center hit fair he could eat zane could actually do center hit fair into another fare or he could do full hop reverse bear to get like the weak hit like the back like he'll be doing a bear for the sword to be over here but it would have been like you could have done you know have you ever seen me do like the weak bear to another hit it's like right here he could run up and do center hit fair and then i feel like zayn i i'm not 100 sure but i think zane could have done it up another fair there but zane could have also maybe done back here to back here so reverse backer to another bear or reverse back gear into a downer or weak fare to weak fare and he could have got two hits but for some reason you only did one hit that's a little strange this is i wasn't sure if mango is going to live this or not but that is that that was like the fervous ledge snap possible that that was almost an sd but it was like the furthest led snap you can do basically and then mango just doesn't want a ledge dash mango just doesn't want to let that i don't blame zane for backing up there and zayn tried to grab if he did a bad ledge desk because he's still used to doing that against other random people and unranked oh this is the thing i was talking about earlier that i did in 2007 all the time so remember when i we see so this is part of like the zayn flow chart and then the old mango flow chart it's like he'll do like like what can he do like zayn will do as you can see zayn does dash left he it's always like dash away dash toward into immediate shield stop and to jump and then he combines that with a double jump waveland fair the 2007 stuff and then you don't have to do that laning lag of the aerial because four air landing lag has seven frames but if you do an empty land it's only four frames so by him doing an empty land thinking manga would go around it he zane gets to have three frames less landing lag you could also waveland to get a new position and see right here that what mango just did on that wavelands um that's actually not safe but it's so awkward compared to what everyone else does that nobody actually punishes it because they're not used to it so like like nobody does anybody expect that like dude mango did that really far you're not really seeing that like expecting that look do you see that it's just so different it's not actually if you actually look at the invincibility he's not even invincible but it's so different from what other people do it's so different from other people do that it catches people off guard you could actually just if you know oh my opponent's gonna do that you can actually just hit him with anything that's why i think it's not as much of a long-term thing it's kind of just like it's good because people aren't used to it and nobody is used to like trying to punish that but anyway and then right here i notice i notice uh it's good that zayn fought through right away that's good he could have got a guaranteed chin wrap but then he goes for a pummel for damage and i'm like why you could have just did an immediate fourth throw again or an immediate up throw and because he pummels mango is wiggling the control stick in circles ahead of time to get out of it because zayn is so used to getting other people not pummeling and that that gives him an escape at only three damage and mango double jumps up here and then by double jumping up here you can threaten left or right and this time he challenged him with a downer and then just and then he just he just used that for like a reposition just to get a position that he wanted to attack from then right here um it's kind of like a game of chicken see mango's invincibility if you look here mango's invincible right now right but then a few frames later he's not invincible so mango's like kind of playing the game of chicken technically zayn could have uh during that time zayn could have just uh upbeat and hit mango but it's a game it's a it's a gambling game like right here see right here mangoes mango if zayn pressed the b right here it's an unreactable mix-up whereas uh manga would have gotten hit but manga would not have died because mango's only at seven percent so even if mango got hit by the up b mango could still double jump and then waveland back on the stage and be fine while taking minimal percent uh and zain on the right hand would live however fox could fox could keep playing that game of chicken fox could do normal stand uh down down smash or double down smash or talk down smash fox could double jump plank like this but or fox could firefox stall um or fox could drop down there's a lot of things fox could have done but it's unreactable mix-ups on both ends this is the one that mango tends to do more and where somehow we are only at the three-minute mark despite me talking for all this time oh boy and i'm holding back a lot so this is oh god i'm intentionally holding back a lot maybe this is a bad idea dude this might have been a terrible idea i don't know if i'm good i don't know dude so he gets him knocked over and he's like okay most people roll away there but zayn realizes he can't get a grab so he goes for a down tote and then right here um it's a mix-up tree where see um i'll just summarize some easier stuff since if i go too and it's gonna go over people's heads um so right here this is basically uh after the fair hits both players are safe but it's a guessing game most smart stash away so what does mango do he tries to read dash away but zane this time goes this way so it's a guessing game technically it's just a 50 50 but most marks have the flowchart dashing away you don't have to though i'm just saying that like that's usually what happens and that's one of mango's skill sets he's really good at like chasing people who ran away but uh yeah i thank you homer 65 for the resub this set was so good thank you vape uh lord yoda for the prime gaming thank you very much and zane got stuck in his movement mango is trying to get right up jab because run up jab leads to ako and the nare would knock down so he's going for that i think it might have been an accidental role i think manga might have tried to be moving out of shield and then became a role by accident but then uh he messed up but then he realized he messed up so he had to dodge because spot that shine is broken and then mize went for a grab he might get shined here yep and then that's a kale unless he does up air however what percent was this see the up throw at 120 you can actually just second hit up only you can actually do a second hit only up air and just kill marth but he didn't go for it you didn't actually he didn't actually have to go to i don't i understand the 50 50 of like always scared of the sdi but you can actually just do a second hit only up here and just there's nothing marv can do thank you 4d so psyched for having your analysis please save this as a vod uh we'll see if my holding back is this if me holding back a lot is this only a minute and 22 seconds passed i don't i don't know what the future is going to be all right right here see how he's just waiting he doesn't have to oh right here that's an up throw that's a easy running up smash mango never goes for the claw running up smash i think that's something you should try to get better at like you just you just called it like you you hold x you press x and up see it like the same time well technically you press x first and you have a pretty big window to do the upsmash and you always get it perfectly fast you would have easily gotten that but he doesn't want to risk it he just goes for he realizes up throw bears is going to kill and it's just as easy so he just goes for that at this percent that's totally fine i'm just saying there's plenty of percents when running up smith's qual would have saved him in other parts of the set when he was talking about the switch right here zane d is away and then he does this up tilt here but mango is holding down the c6 and by holding down the c-stick you instantly land then what zane does attempts to do is position himself that way in case mango does normal stand get up attack or or roll to the right he gets the f smash but unfortunately for zayn unfortunately for zane zane walked just slightly too far as you can see right here this looks like it will hit but it it even though it looks like it had hit the hitboxes are not where they seem to be um so mark's up smash just so you know this is super nerdy but um it's not exactly the sword it's actually above the sword right here but then a line draw drawn from here and then above so it's actually further than this point by just a bit here and it's actually higher than this point by just a bit here but because there's a line right here see this see this line from here to here would actually miss the foot because the hitbox isn't the sword it's so they had to go with a certain amount of ovals with lines drawn between them so basically the way it works is um for some reason they skipped the frame so i'm pressing the back arrow and this is unlucky but uh this okay so this is super unlucky because i'm pressing the period key and it's it's it's going every other frame so there's actually a frame i was going to show you the frame where the sword is up here but not here but because this video isn't perfect as you can see by the timer it would say eight eight one and then it's supposed to say eight oh and seven eight but the 8-0 frame is skipped here anyway let's assume that 80 frame existed there'd be a point up here so there would be a hitbox here and then hitbox exists here so it exists here and it exists here at the same time and not only does it exist here and here simultaneously because the last frame always exists i call it the after image um some people call it interpolation stuff but i call it like the after image so basically this frame exists in this frame but the mo the important part of this particular scenario is that the top of mars f-smash is actually slightly higher than the sword and the end is slightly further so oh that's so broken so what's the catch well the catch is even though it's slightly higher here and slightly further here since it's a straight line drawn between them that straight line is going kind of like where my mouse is and it's not hitting his foot so it's kind of like from here to here and obviously fox's foot isn't always exactly where the heart boxes are either so when you think of it that way it makes a little bit more sense why that missed um but yeah i'm just trying to explain like why that happens because i think most people don't know that even though it's kind of obvious so yeah you wave that shear and then he does the instant crouch zane always does this thing where he's used to he does the up the up toe's good that i've been doing that up toad since 2000's i'm pretty much the guy who invented doing that uh you can look up meets king vs pc chris from pound two when i do it although i've done it in many more sets that's one that's one of the video examples anyway um it's really good because it scoops it it can scoop all the options or it covers everything except roll to the right and but it covers everything safely uh everything else at least and it scoops them so you can't slide off i didn't even know about slide off there just going for the big combo um anyway zayn would walk a little bit and then he would look for when he would try to react to cover f smash every single option except roll to the left so if they do if they do stand up you can either up tilt or f smash if they do get up attack you could stand up for f smash if they roll to the left you can up till or if they roll to the right you can have smash so he's trying to cover everything as strong as possible but zane walked a little bit too far and that's why that part missed and then most foxes most marvels they try to act after the shine so after the shine hits the morph tries to act right and this time zane did a jump it could have been a downer could have been a wave that could have been anything but you basically the moment after shine you kind of like usually that's it's common to act right after the shine you can kind of do this off an audio queue in visual audio you like you hear you hear shine or or you know shine's coming at a certain time and then you know certain amount of frames after the shine or right away and you just you act and then you try to do mix-ups and this is mix-up trees here and in fox's bear for those that don't know actually goes the other direction a lot of the this a lot of it's like spaghetti and chaos but for those that don't know it's like wait wait go back a bit so i explained that interaction already um look at this look at this look at this hitbox fox's fox is kicking to the right but fox hitboxes don't care the hitboxes don't care and it still hits his still hits smart anyway oh and by the way you can't full crouch marv's uh you can't full crouch marv's back air you can't full crowd's weak moves at zero because of something called uh what's it called um i think it's called sakura angle if a move is under 32 knockback in game programming language basically it does it'll put you in an animation where you can't um crouch it so for fox's back here for fox week backer chic week backer fox weekner chic weakness peach weekner morph week upbeat moves like this even jiggy puffs back here at zero like from zero to five or zero to six you can't full crowd slim at zero um you have to be in what i call half power crowds cancel state or asdi where you miss an attack like you taunt and you know miss the taunt or miss a smash attack and you hold down is like a backup plan or in this case zayn did a grab and did down as a backup plan it makes it the window for that smaller so instead of it being like zero to 30 something for not being able to crouch it might be like zero to 20 or so or zero to seven in teens but zero percent you're still screwed because it's too weak so even though zayn did the right inputs for there unfortunately the weak back area is extra good at zero because you can't crouch it basically you you can't you can't if you get hit by fox's weak barrier you kind of get body because it's so weak that sacri angle buffs it um but that's the short version i could go in more in detail on that but that's its own different topic basically if you okay well i'm just gonna move on because i don't be too nerdy and right here zayn was scared of this hit like he could have done light shield to try to i think light shield would have actually been good here to get pushed back further and right there zane wants the pivot grab because in case you go in sometimes the grab can actually beat the fox snare but sometimes it loses but by by mango making zayn strike first and miss uh mango gains stays control slowly and right there he just makes a read and then see that i think there's a real good up there here let me see something this is a this is a that now this this was a great upper this is way better than the upper he did earlier when i called zainab's stupid header that was a really stupid head option but this this is that was perfect he did the exact timing and spacing to cover all four options and why is that really good it's extra good because of the percentage uh there is no see how he's at 59 and then even better here at 60 at this percent i don't think i don't know if you could short hot fair before you lands and visa even if you did you can just die that away and obviously up here is one frame slower than fair and that's might not seem like a lot but that might make the difference between him landing first or not which means attack invincibility uh but you can also do this up there which covers everything else and then you can get a guaranteed combo so that that was the optimal play there by zayn uh earlier zane was very stupid and now zane is very smart in the same match ah he met the fair he got a little greed on the timing and he tried to delay it but he delayed it a little too much and uh mango at the land and then mango is now after that uh zayn was looking for some fear from the fox right here he he should have fared sooner uh zane tried to extend the combo further by delaying the fair but zane got too greedy he he waited way too long and then zane tried to to stall zane was thinking the fox is scared of me i will short hop and the fox will be scared he will shield for a long time mango said nope i ain't scared of you i'm even though you're jumping at me and you could swing at any moment i know you won't swing i'm going to go for the risky immediate drop bear because i know that you're not expecting confidence in an area that i'm supposed to be scared and that's why the those interactions happened zane thinks the fox is supposed to be scared of him because other foxes are scared mega said nope not scared of you and now man now now mango's looking for zayn to be like okay well now mango's thinking zane is scared zayn's gonna run away i'm gonna i'm gonna aim behind him and then he misses this now zane downers might have been on purpose might have been an accident hard to say and then as a free punish but unfortunately for mango he gets stuck in shine and then a two it combo i'm surprised you didn't hit him off stage see zayn's trying to it's more of a magnus trying to catch the dash away oh but this is by the way made i invented this so uh like uh i really i forget how long ago but i invented this a really long time ago remember how you can jet you guys know how you can jab fox's illusion so basically i'll explain to asgard species it's actually based on sound which is a lot easier in person than on us than online because online nerf sound by one to two frames which makes a big difference in certain masters particularly falco but also fox but even more so falco so if that in mind you think about frame data if you can jab the illusion consistently uh it's a frame for jab well wouldn't you be able to forward air a frame for aerial so i just that was my logic which is why i went for optimizing ed's guards a few years ago and zane copies them more in me so people who are newer to melee might not know but i invented this but um basically you jump and then when you hear this when you hear ching when you hear the sound of ching like the beginning of illusion it goes qing you press the c stick forward and uh this is extra good offline it works online against online and offline you can still do it to fox it's always going to be easier on the crt you just press fare uh ideally you want the center hit but a tipper hits fine but the center hit would have killed fox in this situation the center hit the tipper hit it didn't kill but it's still 13 damage and it's kind of free damage so it's not that bad it's not that bad it's not the best case scenario but it's still acceptable um and he does it again the old music king edge guard and right here he was zayn was a little scared zane didn't i don't know if zayn covered everything here but he was just covering the safety right right here yeah i think zayn was just playing like okay i'm i'm nervous i'm gonna do nervous strats like it'll be more optimal to do like grab ledge and then do double jump lead chop and then do the back hair which sort of like went under the stage hit the ledge hit under the stage and there's more optimal what things you can do but when you factor in human nervousness sometimes players want to do an option that isn't as optimal but is significantly easier to execute and will still cover most things so that's something that a lot of people have i know this from both perspectives fighting against people and being the player myself so um wanted just mentioned that oh my god i'm only two minutes in the video and i've been holding back oh no oh no i'm only 10 i'm not even 10 oh my god i'm like five percent done all right so right here he's just trying to do basic movement and man was like nope punch punch and then man was trying to be like okay where are you gonna go where are you going and mango's doing the uh god recoveries here all right so manga does the fade back narrows are usually pretty safe walls because uh but but not this time man we got a little too close that same scrap still worked despite the fade back he wanted to put him with the ledge of back or down uh he went for a second place um i think he was actually one frame too slow on that one when you see some respond necessary one two yeah he was gonna get grabbed he gets grabbed on the next frame this is 27. actually uh mango only got grabbed because his fr his strand was not frame perfect if mango did a frame perfect giant right here uh zane would have been wave shine combo and died uh manga was one frame off so mango got grabbed instead uh thank you icarado for the rest up we're off here for your analysis yeah i i could definitely i might need this but i might need to split this up i'm not even going as hard as i i could because there's too many games okay so here it'd be good to mix up up through and fourth road based on how you think they're gonna die uh forward throw down towards the meets king special it's the old-fashioned meat king special and then right here um i guess this is like player versus player people know that spaces know they can do this particular recovery on zayn so right here zane's probably zayn's probably really focused on like fox's jumping back or fox is doing like a jump in or an air dodge or something but then zayn's not ready for this double jump zane could have literally just done jab or any hitbox here but zayn was priming his reactions off what he was expecting and zayn is used to expecting people who either jump in impatiently do a bad dollar jump to the ledge air dodge on or jump back so if you do this type of double jump it's it like visually tricks him and catches him off guard because he's not thinking about it he's prepared for other options he's not as prepared for this one so his reaction time to it will not be as as as good because he's not planning ahead to think that's why uh you can get away even though this is unsafe it's hard as i said it's hard to cover everything at the same time it might not even be possible the goal is to try to cover everything but you know it's it's it might not it might not even be possible right here he just missed the grab flubs zayn zayn doing aerial dash away man you're going for the up smash that would have worked if he died badly which he probably would have because he would have most no dion would have hit if it hit because he probably wouldn't have been able holding away then forward throw he goes for reaction tech chase he just wants a certain position under the edge right here let's see up throw oh he does the upper too soon and that up air it it came out too soon how soon was it let me see some oh no the frame the frame it's not the frame is okay the frame rate's not good enough but the this up air should have been at least one frame later one this upper should have been one or two frames later in order for it to hit uh mango is still invincible when the upper hits see for some reason mango is invincible here and that made it doesn't look like he's invincible because he's not flashing but he was invincible he's still ahead this is normally hit but he had an invincible ability frame and that probably went away like right shortly after and that's just why i missed and then just random just jumping around trying to get a new position yeah mango trying to get it's kind of like what uh he the kanter just said he's trying to get in on mango attempts the kraut's tech chase but he's not good at it so he missed theoretic if this is if this was wiz robe's fox i'd be dead uh low key i fought wizzy's fox before and he literally crouched text chases me and just kills me like wizzy would be crouching here and no matter what i would do i would die yeah but then i fight anybody that's not wizzy and then i live because everyone they try to crash check chase and they everyone thinks they're wizzy and only wizzy's wizzy okay but yeah i would have just dead beaten dead no matter what i did but uh you just pick an option at random against an a regular human being and it doesn't work sad that's just him not as being as good as he can on reaction tech chase that's not fair to mars typical special whatsoever right here he uh zane reacted slow because react because as i said tech chasing is way harder people think you would just not think that if you saw wizzy play but then he missed the wave shine so uh they both flopped so two flubs back to back he tried to stall didn't quite work smash the eye and then after the smash die zane's good smash die and now zayn could come down for fair however he knows that mango knows oh well mango obviously has to block my fare right like i'm i'm obviously gonna fare mango mango obviously has to shield that my four-door downer so but i know that he knows that so i'm gonna empty land which only has four frames landing lag and doesn't freeze me in the air which it makes me able to do another act whether it's a wavelength or an immediate grabber immediate up tilt sooner allowing me to get a grab here this can get me some recovery's combos oh he's going for a ride here oh yep right here he did the down tote but i think i personally think if you think that the the fox is going to try to allusion to a platform which uh it's very common a lot of foxes a lot of people do that you can also just put if you depending on if you want to cover the lights so zane prioritize the leds this time and if you think they're going to go leds that's fine especially when the fox loves the leads dash a lot of foxes who are good at leads that string they go for that but it's also con for fox just just i'll go hide and take the platform reader the high root if you think they're going to take the high root just short hop if you short hop when you hear the ching sound you could just press the c stick to fare and then kill by the way guys if you enjoy my content don't forget to follow my youtube and follow my twitch and subscribe to my channel and sign up for my medify gg anyway back to the match and we're still on match one of 10 no all right no di and dash attack leads to an easy kill if you don't get the sdi oh he wasn't sure that interesting option jump they're very weird oh he covered everything so roll so right here zayn did an up tote here but the way zayn positioned himself wasn't the he didn't stand the best spot zane went a little too far zayn see what he went way too zane went way too far zayn could have just been more to the right so right here this covered everything except roll to the right but it would have covered well to the right if he was a little more to the right see you can actually be in a better position like he does not need to be this far to cover it and right here this is a cool um he's thinking that's um mango's thinking that zayn's gonna crouch see yeah his mango yeah so marv likes to cancel the aerial here um although it's not even that good to be honest because remember the thing i said about sacrifice angle earlier the sacrifice angle bear kind of would have screwed that but crouching fox at zero is just not the best option in general because of sacroi angle if sacra angle didn't exist then it'd be a much better option but yeah um back here would have been fine too just because sakura angle exists but drill is even better if you think they're going to crouch he does drill because you can't crouch drill and you get shined combo the shine and then all this is guaranteed unless you mess up oh he misses dash mango misses his dash because he's probably used to fox vs jigglypuff where you up throw jigglypuff or up to a fox by the way fox's up throw is it's weight dependent so if you're used to fighting fox studios or fox vs puff when you go to a character who's a little heavier than fox that or like the heavier they are the more you're in lag after you up through so juve plus the lightest so you can up through and you can act the soonest spouse is the heaviest so you wait the longest for him marth's a little bit heavier so right here mango did the wrong timing he got the outro but then he just he missed the dashback he did the and he did the inputs for like a fox ditto or something else he he just didn't have the right timing thank you kevin 64 for the resub and so yeah he just misses his manga just misses his dash here and there's just a bunch of flubs on both sides both trying to like oh i'm messed up and the other guy tries to capitalize and they miss back and forth right here dude he tries to so zane's always so what zane does zayn's always holding like if saint gets wave shine by fox so whenever zayn gets wave shine by fox he always has like a muscle mary to hold c stick straight down control stick down left and then press and hard hold the r button anywhere between 1 to 20 frames before he gets hit in order to do a crowd's cancelled tech roll just in case fox does an air or fox doesn't up smash however here he misses it he's he gets the c stick down which is why instant landed he gets the down away di which is why he's over here but he misses the r press timing as a result and now he's doing get up attack and stuff i i'm not 100 sure that's what happened but that's what i think happened but again i'm not 100 sure but i did watch this set earlier and i saw zayn doing these weird spot dodgers after getting wave shined which leads me to believe that what i said is most likely true although maybe not necessarily every time oh yeah and fox wave shiny marvel edge is not safe you get shined and here zane protects himself but then mango's like i don't want to go into but he's mango's in a bad spot and it's not that easy to get away uh that was bad by zayn zayn doesn't have confidence in himself right now oh see how manga does this up here i don't really agree with that that means the moment zane saw mango dude upper zane could have just full hopped off or short hopped off and then did that thing i told you if you hear the ching sound you just press fair uh but zayn's playing kind of like he doesn't have much confidence and he's just like i'm just gonna play it safe and do really easy options and hope that you don't play perfect i'm gonna consistency check you yeah that up here is actually kind of bad i think you can't just wait yeah see zayn was going for consistency but i don't really agree with that i mean because he's not really playing for peak's skill what i described what i described is the answer is more of like if you're confident this is the optimal play but zayn's just like he's just gonna do what will usually work most of the time but it's technically not optimal for example if if he did the optimal play manga would already be dead probably oh wait that's the better thing to practice and zane just back zayn is so used to foxes doing perfect ledge dash that he always backs up no matter what against fox specifically and then fox can do all these crappy things where you just either do a bad ledge dash or you wait you just land over here and zayn has not challenged that wants this set that i remember um like all you have to do is read hey fox is gonna do an option that's not real and i can just do a sword attack or grab to beat it but zayn is so used to foxes always ledge dashing that he's not actually punishing the not g the knot led zest because he just assumes that always going to let's dash so if you're fighting zayn doing ledge dash or no ledge dash with fox is currently the same result until he changes that habit but that's just how it is here i mean it makes sense you'd have these habits fighting all these foxes that let's dash you just assume they're always going to do it i mean if you do it you're invincible so you might as well just do it anyway but yeah if you don't get punished it doesn't matter and here zane's protecting himself down so side b mango's like i know you're gonna swing i'm gonna try to get some stage to get into a frame advantage positional advantage that i want get closer because fox is better than marv up close oh let me describe this forward smash this is a ford if you actually watch i think this is also in the smash documentary this is in the smash dock um but i remember when i'm warming up against the computer and the smash dock i don't remember if i think it's a smash talk but i did this in old videos in 2006 when i made fox i studied the game's frame data and i realized that if if fox tries to cover miss tech or tekken place which are both 26 frames total by the way and he does that with a forward smash if he if the mark chooses tech roll and gets behind fox at least fox won't get punished fox loses center stage but he doesn't get directly punished the reason is because if fox was to say do an up smash right now if fox was to up smash and miss then there's so much lag from up smash see up smash total time is more than forward smash total time or at least from the moment that the hitbox comes out like from the moment that the forward smash hitbox comes out to the end of the move is a much smaller gap from the moment that the frame seven up smash comes out to the end of that move so if you miss what i'm saying is if you miss forward smash and they choose techrol and smash misses then you're still fine because you don't get directly punished but if fox was to theoretically have upsmashed here and if zayn theoretically tech rolled at the same time as the up smash because you know you're doing it on a guess then what would have happened is there's so much lag from the upsmash missing at that moment that zayn would have been able to get a dash grab punish so by going for f smash you're actually taking a significantly smaller risk than if you go for the up smash taking place i figured that out in 2006 based on 2003 frame data i studied and it's cool to see it applied in 2021 my knowledge is surprising i know more than everybody i just hold it back a lot i'm actually holding back right now because i don't want to be too discouraging for noobs basically f smash is safe if you miss you still lose center though whereas up smash not only do you lose center you get directly punished if you're wrong and yeah right here and right here it's kind of like a game of chicken see how he's doing this right here oh and here's everyone you see so he's like trying to stall knowing zane is going to stall this is kind of the game of chicken i know what you're thinking and you can get uh pushed in now check this out there's even more so look at this so here he doesn't want to stall too long because the uppy will hurt him but look if you look closely to what mango is doing he's he's it's a 50 50 between ledge roll and normal stands so if see how this animation can look like normal stand or ledge roll you don't know zayn's like oh well i don't want to get ledge rolled a lot of foxes will let roll now and then i might not not only get hedgehogs but they might even get the running up smash but i have to get on stage i can't stall any longer i already used two side bees and both players know that but it's an unreactable 50 50 here because this looks like ledge roll but that's the same animation as let's stand normal and bam frame one broken shine that also has a bigger hitbox behind you uh thank you ppmd for the rate of 399 people oh how uh how you how's everyone doing you just i'm still on game one i've been on game one this whole time talking about extremely nerdy stuff which will eventually go on my youtube later if you guys are interested i'm trying to hold back the nerdy this because i think it's going over most people's heads so i'm intentionally holding back a lot but i think it's still too nerdy so i need to tone it down more um but yeah thank you for the raid i hope you guys enjoy my stream don't forget to follow my channel and don't forget if you guys enjoy my youtube or twitch content consider subscribing and i also want to mention i do coaching uh if you guys want to get good at melee or ultimate you book with me exclamation mark coaching and twitch chat or press exclamation mark um no prompt coaching or medifi.gg or medifi gg slash adsense king if you want to sign up and use the code swt to save 10 i'll still get full mount all right i have a lot to do so i still have a lot more to do but hopefully the future matches won't be as nerdy as this one hey all right let's continue i can't believe i've been talking all this time behave kev obviously what goes for a quick back throw because he's trying to get the back through f smash but mango does no directional influence making that not a combo technically it's a mix-up between back through and down throw if you know they're not gonna die or diy down throws better if you know they're gonna di in then back through it's better it's kind of a 50 50 guess what the best option for one is not the best option for the ever but no di's also a good middle ground for both right here if if if zayn if zayn knew now can somebody turn off the haze or i'm just gonna have to mute mute chat or something right here if you know that they're going to illusion high you short hop and when you hear the qing sound of illusion um if you when you hear that ching sound of illusion then uh you do you go for the fair yeah it looks like i'm just trying if people chat doesn't cooperate i'm just gonna all right uh can a moderator put on sub only mode right uh it turns looks like we're gonna have a punishment we're gonna go in sub only mode now so one of the mods turn that on i guess this is what's gonna happen now hey so uh can one of my mods do that now behave hey all right i'm gonna turn change the mode hey i've gotta find sonic he's in jail i'll fix it we'll fix this all right so to continue hey all right and he goes for that's uh he goes for the near and then it's not enough to kill everything possible and right here it's uh by mango upping here he could threaten going down to the ledge but then if zayn's not sure what to do it's safe to cover it to center stage so zayn will count cover center but zane messes up he's nervous he didn't go for a tip or bear or anything he probably tried to up tilt and messed up and went for up smash this was totally an accident he did not mean to upsmish and then this is the lot of random flubs both parties messing up zayn doesn't immediate back through but manga once again doesn't die and then mango wiggles left or right to grab ledge mango could lead steps but he never does even though he could he does illusion and the ugly illusion misses because zane's so used to only people ledge dashing and not doing any other options that shouldn't work so he gets the way of things he shouldn't and mango gets rewarded for doing a scrubby lead shop illusion he gets he gets rewarded for the 2005 media king webshop illusion cool how the meta totally evolved i'm just kidding uh but that's literally fake he knows all right and now they met uh i don't want to be that commentator says extra credit but he's literally just going for extra damage to try to cause fox can always kill at a certain percent like 80. so he's just trying to get that extra damage while he can he knows he knows he's screwed so he's just going for the extra damage right there he goes for the jab and then right here he was looking for zayn was looking for tech row in if he if he tech rolled in he was going to upbeat and but then then he didn't and but then he knows mango scared so he grabs even though the grab wasn't safe he figured it'd work anyway and if you just go for four throw dash grab again it's safe because if you're wrong it's whatever he could have f-smashed but it's hard to confirm that happens so the dash grabs a safer flow chart so it's just like i'm not i just want a consistent flowchart that usually works against most people so that's where the logic is there technically he could have just swung or ran up an upbeat but he didn't um and right here so right here i can explain this interaction so basically when fox does up b uh b let's just say let's just say one percent would be frame one and one hundred percent would be the blast off so if we're counting one percent of the move as frame one and and 100 or 99 being what a blast off happens then i'd say around 50 to 75 percent of the move is where the firefox burn happens so around 50 to 75 percent of the charge every frame is a hitbox where the burn happens so the last the last 10 frames of the of the firefox you can actually hit so if you just aim for just be if you just try to hit fox the moment before the blast off happens you should be able to hit him however zayn acted too early all zayn had to do was wait a little bit more if anyone did a little bit more he uh then he would have been fine but he acted too soon by acting too soon he dropped the edge guard right here he tried to react too fast but the burn wasn't over we are still at about 75 percent of the move the last hitbox did not get yet go away he should have he could have done that the same exact card successfully by just waiting slightly longer and then he got all this extra damage and now zayn's nervous and mango's just trying to like see how much he can get away if mango mango's confident he got the momentum zayn's nervous probably upset with himself for dropping that and manga gets all this extra damage and now the last stock one of mark's specialties is just like juvi puff is you can zero that fox specifically a lot of combos starting from zero and then mango doesn't want to do the uppie stall or double jump if mango did played if mango either did uppy stall or double jump stall or play chicken for longer he would have been actually just killing zayn right now but he didn't want to risk it because he's at zero and he thinks he'll just win the long game right here he went for the bear it almost hit and if that hit if this this is a good idea and my falco would have killed uh but he wasn't quite close enough with the bear so see right here he could have played the game it he could have up he stalled double jump stalled or just played chicken longer or normal stand missed out uh and then down smash with a never down smash or taunt stand up nor uh into regular down smash for the since normally you can't crouch marks that beat zero but if you miss a taunt or miss a down smash then you can actually cross cancel down smash the next one um and you can kill him but he didn't want to risk it he's just like you know what i know i could i could do these things well i don't know if he knows i don't know if manga knows all those things but um he could do these things but uh he didn't want to risk it because he has such a big lead he just didn't want to take chances um he figured he's gonna get a trade right here with that bear and with falco if if mango is falco right now doing these same inputs or if mango did a longer wave last year that would have traded and manga would have just won the game but uh it didn't work out for him he got fared and then zane's dad's dancing he's like uh please just do him dude like mango is trying to just kill mango's trying to end it he wants spot dodge shine maybe trying to go for up smash and mag zayn just like i'm just gonna press left right i know i know you're in a scared mindset and you don't think i'm going to keep camping the spot but i know that you're thinking that and he does now you can get a grab if you stay if you stand in just the right spot i think you could cover all four options but i'm not 100 sure but it's very tricky you get two up tilts uh and then right here and then he just puts him in a bad spot and that the worst upbeat of all time the worst upbeat of all time and he dies and to be honest that was such a bad upbeat like zayn wasn't even looking for the uppy it's just that bad of an upbeat like illusion would have been better that was up to lesbian better illusion cancer better losing to a platform anything anything but that would have been better that was just honestly a bad decision about mango that deserved today you don't even have to read that you just even if you're not looking for that it's just you're fine anyway anyway game can feel when two get hit and then because they can be very fragile you know zayn's really good at doing his uh the flow chart where he does like dash left right he he does if zayn does dash away dash forward into immediate shield stop usually into jump it's like a soccer very con flowchart he's really good he's really good at executing it it's good because it gives him a certain consistent baseline now here's he misses the sdi but then mango doesn't go for a full hot fare see man gets this up air man could actually do full hop fare here i think ford air would be good forder is actually a way bigger hitbox than people think um forder has a way better bigger hitbox than people think um and then you know it's zayn so he's always going to do the double aerial just like hungrybox when he just does the landing down there into another ariel it's very good to be fair it's a real it's a really consistent strat you have a hitbox out and then you have another one protecting you this cancels really good i probably i probably should do it more myself and you do here and then it's just the right spot to get a frame trap here that was a perfect frame trap it was like the exact position it was the exact position and setup needed to get that frame trap and then he's and then you you do this and then you delay up there to make it harder to slide off i don't know the exact specifics of that and then he could have f-sma he might have been able to get up smash there but it would have been fine because look i think he knows that he's going to go for f smash yes it's the basic up here double up air and then mix up tree and zayn probably sees these situations like my what do i do what should i do he's probably thinking i'll just i don't know up so i guess and right here going for a ken combo but the kind of con was so obvious that mango knows it's coming so he's gonna hold away because holding away from fair makes you live so in hindsight maybe a different option maybe it's something different than fair would have been better like like an early up b or maybe an up air or near or near something that catches cats the away di since you know he's thinking oh he's going to cancel hold away so if he did a strong up b or second hitting air up there something to catch the away d i would have been better there maybe oh and right here mango this double jumps to the ledge it's completely unsafe um but zayn's always caught off guard when spaces do that so so spaces can just keep down jumping to wedge versus zayn and zayn's always caught off guard by it i notice oh my god why this shouldn't work uh these aren't real ledge options these are 2005 these are 2005 ledge options that me and show and do did and people punished it then but i guess it's it went all backwards because people nowadays are so used to only covering ledge dash that they they don't know how to handle the 2005 options because why nobody's doing the 2005 options that it it gets buffed by the fact that nobody else is doing it so it's like it's it's just you know i'm saying like it's not supposed to be good but it gets good because nobody else is doing it because the reason for people don't do it is because it's not actually good and zayn does this thing where uh he does this ledge dash but then you crouch cancel just so that you don't die and ma and zayn almost died here if zayn was a little bit further or a little higher percentage zane would have downered to his death but i guess he knows what he's doing because i didn't see him do this all the time when you do it if you're not confident in your legs dash zane does this thing where he's not confident in leads dash so he does let's dance but then he does crowds cancel and maybe zayn tried to grab because if you press z and down you also grab it's possible he presses z and x at the same time and it paradise z or something or maybe i'm wrong if he the downer down to intentional down tilts here are risky because you might down her to your death but an intentional jc grab would be good because you immediate up throw and then you you do the spike that you see me do like when i was like in my 20s or a teenager you just immediate up throw and then you just you double jump to here and then this di then you double reverse spike them and the thing that i think is another thing and i don't know about i don't know about that up throw i mean oh actually what am i saying oh yeah okay so he's trying to get the up throw where see zayn does up throw here because like zayn's really good at spiking you if you die off stage on up throw zayn's really good at spiking you and if you do no di that's also really good because he can set up reverse fares weak up airs or spikes and stuff and but if he dies in obviously it's not as good but man caught the di in and the din would have still been worse for the back or down throw but it wouldn't have been quite a percentage where he gets up e to f master chain grab f smashed so i guess that's fine it's just a hard to say objectively kev obviously what can you stop saying that another thing that's a little bit difficult about this and manger just comes out the downer gets away fit oh fair but then he goes for that's a weird boost grab okay so he's just like i'm just gonna i'm just gonna go for the hit i don't know about that boost grab if you guys want to know how to uh do instant lanes so basically to teach this technique bit difficult about um is that mango did try to finish basically what you do is um you basically do an option like let's say mango try to grab but it didn't work out right he bit he did he tried an option like grab it didn't work out so what you do is you hold down the c-stick down away on the control stick so straight down the c-stick down right on the control stick and all you do is you press and hold the r button anywhere between i think one two it could be wrong but i think it's anywhere between one to 20 frames before you get hit and you just do this instant tech now if you hold down right then you do the tech roll to the right or down left you take roll to the left in this situation the most ideal situation would be doing the instant tech for tech in place as seen here then you can get right back into the fight and continue your aggression and that's uh that was how mango did what he just did and right here you know what i notice mango doesn't ever do fox's four tilt angled down and it would have been really good here i mean i guess maybe you could still take it anyway but i don't know when i played fox i did a lot of his four-toed angle down in situations that like he walks up and does that down smash but i think with fox and falc you could just f-tilt angle down and just kill them but i guess it might be technical i don't know and then zayn's really good zayn has a very high skill set at teching like he's just really good at taking the wall when like amarf does a downtown or f-smash a fox or falco do their downstream he's really skilled at doing the wall talking he's very consistent at that more than most players and he comes back and tries it again and mango yeah he doesn't get the punish here so he resets totally safe on now i think mango was probably trying to read like a waveland down here because i guess he because zayn wave landed down earlier but uh you know had zhang zane stalled or swung or did anything other than waveland down here he would have got hit but even here it didn't work because it was not that good of an option anyway it was a little too far someone agree oh and back throw and then last time zayn was like oh well last time i grabbed you i up threw you you died right well that was the worst guy for this throw and now if i have smash or turn round up b which is even better which uh it will kill you also i want to mention more there's more to mention because right here you might be thinking uh so well something i want to mention to you um if you look closely frame by frame i could show you this easily but uh okay imagine if fox was on stage right now see the f-man started it didn't hit yet if c where fox's head is if fox was on stage like if this stage was longer and mango zane was not as much to the ledge uh fox would have already got his invincible and fox would be invincible right now in attack fox would be invincible right now in attack but since you're at the very legend hovering over the wedge the down smasher up b or chain grab work for longer that this makes but this buffs the effect of a back throughout the immediate at the ledge something i figured out a very long time ago it's very effective also if they know if they're aware to die the down throw uh you could just mix up by doing up throw it down if you if if manga was to like di properly for the back throw aka not hold in then that would have been uh and he would just like no di or di down away or something then the other throws such as down throw would have been better so there's still mixed up games on both sides but back throw is good overall in there in that situation because of the reasons i said all right guys if you enjoy my content consider supporting however possible don't forget to follow consider subscribing consider using twitch prime that will be much appreciated all right mango didn't want to deal with this so he's just going in mango's trying to get marf to whiff because the idea of with punish is that um whoever attacks first and misses if somebody attacks first and misses you might not get a direct punish on them but you have the advantage regardless because let's say zayn attacks and misses not only can mango be like okay what are you gonna do after you miss are you gonna dash back are you gonna dash forward or this or that or shield or something but by mango getting closer to zayn that's good for fox and by mango cornering zane that's good for mango so just because if you get marph to strike first and miss it's still very advantageous even if you don't get even if you aren't getting a direct punish now it's good to get the direct punish and in most situations the direct punish is in most situations ideal but it's not always that simple you could play the long game on purpose and simply use positional advantage punishing habits conditioning getting stage control and these other secondary effects that are different than the direct punish so by main by making you miss first it's still an advantage so when mango makes zayn miss an attack first he might not always get the direct punish but there are other positional conditional and positional and conditional advantages that he's getting makes sense i noticed something else too oh thank you osprey 2-1-1-2 for the prime gaming thank you very much uh mango has been doing these short hop nair fade backs against zayn and zane also has been doing his narrow fade back but what happens is when mango's interaction doesn't work out because they're both holding back on the control stick it makes the second hit of foxes of mars snare not connect so i've seen this a few times in the set later but check this out uh i don't know if it happens here but uh i've seen this a few times later he does nair but after he nears he's holding back and still zane however as a result of them both holding back this second hit is missing so by zayn holding away and mango holding away it makes the move not work properly so instead of mango taking a bigger punish and getting on the ground now it's just three damage or whatever and it's like he can continue fighting i've seen the same type of interaction happen later in the set as well which is why i'm mentioning it now so it's there's even more depth than it seems like see again the same thing see look this time mango does the aerial end this is a big nerf to this in a look this same interaction mango nairs right to try to hit zayn if mango connects it's great but look mango's holding away after mango does the inputs finer mango is just holding away and then even though zayn's moving forward apparently fox holding away is just that good that you could just escape it so unless marv full commits forward with the nair fade back ner eve seems even better than in than once previously thought because of that the same thing a few seconds later and i see this in later games as well and up through up there easy kill events are you gonna get that all right see right here so right right here marv swings marv swings to protect himself and it's usually good so of course you still do it and then you see right here there's not a direct punish but fox being close to marth is still favoring fox overall not to mention most marvels will want to dash left or right or shield in this case he does a dash away mango attempts to get him but he barely misses however even though mango misses because he's fox up close against a shielding marth mango still has the advantage overall from position and frame data he might not win the next interaction but there's no denying he technically framewise has the advantage he still and that that was a goofy interaction but that's basically how it goes on average obviously there's gonna be exceptions but that's like the basic idea behind that type of thing uh mango makes zayn strike first and then mango has the advantage maybe not a direct punish sometimes a direct punish but even if he doesn't he still holds an advantage after that uh the instant tech professor cube says instant tech of c stick down diagonal down uh you have to press the r button before you get hit so the same frame i don't think works but one frame before works two frames before work 19 frames before work and anything within that range to my understanding the only thing you're just holding so you stick down a control stick down away or sometimes down towards sometimes straight down if you want a second place or tech raw a certain way um and you're just timing the r button for just press and hold just before you get hit that's my understanding there's a chance that info is wrong but i don't think it is uh you love me then why aren't you my sub no i was kidding but but for real though i would appreciate people's support a big reason i didn't play melee as much and i went to other games was because other games were supporting me more if i could justify melee more i would do it a lot more anyway back to the analysis also guys i do coaching again just to mention xmm coaching in twitch chat or medifi.gg anyway so he messes up the combo but look right here mango's trying to think zayn you're going to run away thank you very much tool for the twitch prime thank you so much tool sub for what level computers are all right sub i'll tell you the best computer fight um do i have an asterisk i wouldn't be a streamer if i did if i didn't c4 anyway um so right here mango was trying to overshoot trying to read zayn running away but zayn was like you know what i'm just gonna duck you might jump over me or something see like mango's like okay look you're gonna go over and zayn's trying to duck and then react usually because it's very con for a fox to jump over right here or just run past so he goes for f smash this time it works in other interactions i've seen uh mango dodge or shield these but this particular time he got hit but he's probably going to hold down because oh he didn't hold down this time if mango held down he'd be alive oh there's a turbo b oh but then now they both choke it they're both okay mango's making stupid decisions and then zayn's choking mango zane did not need to rush to the ledge like that oh hold up so he gets him off protect himself but then mango makes a bad decision thank you kirbymayne1994 for the fire get the subs thank you so much thank you very much kirbymayne mayweather's goated yeah it basically is i agree right here is i i disagree if the decision to go low because that's basically like throwing the stock um if saying if sane executes right mango is basically dead if but if if he was above ledge he could have threatened things like illusion cancel and other things so he takes the free hit but zane rushes to the ledge too fast and zayn's rushing to the lead so fast that he misses the ledge this is uh not the best judgment um he could have just taken his time to get to ledge he still would have got there first and still been able to kill mango covering either every or almost every option uh but uh he gets a little greedy and dies at nine this part is part of the game though right here just basic landing area because you don't know what else to do f smash something you want to mix up the uppers you don't always want to f smash is really good if they if they die badly they die but it's it's on average it's safer to do aerials like up air and stuff because it's no matter how they die it's more consistent damage but f smash could also be good if you can catch some slipping but i would i don't do it as much as i used to oh thank you smash fox god for the gifted sub the frank zero four zero four thank you very much smash fox also dead battery steady stuff it didn't pop up thank you very much um i fight level four computer fox when i was younger um when i was younger i used to fight a level i used to fight level one okay so i used to fight level nine because oh level nine's the hardest and then i realized that they do unrealistic things like they're always that if you shield they will always have a frame run reaction frame one reaction time the dash grabbed you which is ridiculous and this is most noticeable on a level 9 computer luigi but they're always programmed to not only survival di which is always the same di every time but to smash the eye up and towards so if you're trying to do combos and stuff it'll do unrealistic inputs that don't simulate a normal human interaction level ones are easier to beat up which allows you to practice tech skill a lot and just beat them up normally and level fours are basically similar to level ones except that they seem to have more di mixups than level ones by comparison as somebody who had very very limited resources back in the day i had to take due of what i had i didn't have i didn't have much people to play or other methods of practice so that was the best option available to me when i was in my room alone back in the old days before bro or even during the bro era so that that's the reasons that i do level four i say level four has the uh best i have not looked into level three as much as i should have but i've looked into level nine one and four um i have not looked into three extensively so i don't know but look four has been fun oh i think level one two and three were dealing the same for my morph chain grabs and level fours would they would actually mix up the di once in a while like they'll do no di and they'll do full left and four right so sure they didn't do slight die so i couldn't practice that as much but i got some simulation of at least training my reaction time to some extent even if it was just a minor extent uh you gotta remember i had to work way harder in order to get to a certain level than you guys like it you guys gotta remember that like there were no resources back then it's like if you're if you're programming a video game imagine programming an amazing video game but you have no resource tools nowadays if you want to make a game you just use like game maker all these other programs that make all the other stuff easier back then i basically had i had to find frame data for my own pause tests and then theory craft it alone by fighting computers like it's people are spoiled nowadays by comparison so if you just saying the words doesn't really put into perspective how much more frustrating how difficult it is which is why nobody else was doing it because it's too hard anyway back to the games so right here he went uh zayn wave landed but uh he's just trying to control stage and mango does a good angle to let's know his name won't cover it air dodge here to try to avoid oh and then z uh zane gets it into a position where he can threaten an aerial mango thinks oh crap he's gonna come down feneral so instead both players knowing what they know zayn does the the riskier quote riskier mix-up of this empty land where he could have attacked but he didn't and he gets a good string here and this this downer um actually if this was wiz robes fox he would have lived uh i i i i'm always saying this because i've seen wizzy do this just to me so many times when i try to can combo wizzrobe whether he's canton falcon or fox he just smashed the eyes he teleports his position from here to here i hit him at the same angle and he lands on stage and then everyone else that i play that's not whizzy it just dies from this down here but then whizzy lives it every time because he has smash 64 habits which are you have to spam sdi that that little bit of a teleport would it makes a huge difference there it also messes up over combos oh both players are flubbing thank you cancer for the resub subbing for all the hard work and research you've done in the game oh that oh i need about a hundred thousand subs for that then but no thank you no jokes aside thank you so much i'll cancel for that i appreciate everyone's support i don't spam sdi i'm saying wizrobe does and he's very good at it i don't know what you're wrapping with it crowds cancel see uh zayn does narrow dash away the basic float chat i made up a long time ago but this time it works out for him and he gets a grab but platforms make this trickier oh he gets greedy he does two pummels but but mango loves to mash and rotate the control stick when he gets hit so two pummels that's too greedy he doesn't get the luxury of that he's probably used to working on other players which is why he has that habit and this time he does a rollback but another thing zane zayn's really good at is the um when you get hit when zayn gets hit by shine or knows i'll get hit he just fast falls grab ledge i used to have this habit when i was playing the game a lot i i used to do this a lot i would get waste shine to the ledge they would try to shine spike me i'll just fast forward the ledge and then i'd let chop ariel and kill them um so that's not actually real there but yeah it's damaged but right here if you look fox is an air it has some shields done but look right here one two three four five six seven he gets grabbed here if mango did that nair one frame like lo like lower or later that manga would have been able to shine but since mango did the rising there he loses to a frame perfect shield grab so zane's frame perfect shield grab wins the situation by one frame only because mango did the near too high and by doing the near higher you're covering more options but you it still would have been better if mango delayed that just by a very spot just by one frame that would have actually changed this interaction ideally because the landing lag of nair from fox as well as fair from our both seven frames which is the thing i think it's not including all the cancers is the second lowest in the game outside peaches in there at six so basically mango did high near which is why i got grabbed that's the short version right here it's a positional advantage uh oh he messes up that's a ko oh well yeah okay a little bit of nervousness right so right here it's like when you realize mango tried the sweet spot but manga went too low mango didn't realize he went solo uh but then by the time he realizes it now he's like oh i messed up i have to upbeat uh zane could have done like a jump counter and covered everything except for the unlucky unlikely chance that he gets shield pokes for those that don't know when marf counters the bottom forward part of his foot is actually vulnerable which means if you happen to get since the game runs at 60fps instead of infinity fps you know like real life or whatever uh you can hit his foot on a frame that doesn't um you can hit his foot on a given frame but not hit the circle of the counter this is particularly noticeable in his front foot but the amount of times this usually will not happen so you can still cover most options most of the time by countering however there is always the chance you get unlucky and get your foot poked on a frame that doesn't also hit the counter ball and it's also depending on the height fox could also do a sweet spot to go under the counter and there's also a possible which won't even activate the counter and might hit marth or just will miss completely there's also the possibility of activating the counter on a certain frame but then still landing anyway there's also the possibility of attacking the counter and depending on your percent you could also di up and toward and then allusion to the ledge or losing cancel or smash that up into it and lose the cancel so those are all the possible things you can do there but with that that all said counter is still really good uh but zane didn't want to do that here he he moved back to try to get this down tote you could have traded with his arm here and it's sort of risky there but it's still a good rescuer cause he can die zane could go off and mango could also mango could have rode this wall closely to go there oh hi oh oh mango's in chat what's up i'm doing your announce uh congrats again uh i'm doing your analysis and i'm too nerdy wait shut up shut up jason i'ma ride my mom closely raffle wait i did not process that as accurately and fast as i should have god damn it god damn i've lost my train of thought oh ride the wall wait wait but wait did he say ride the wall or ride my mom wait i i don't remember what he just said oh he's he did say mom okay so yeah i was talking about writing the wall and then mango changed it to writing my mom uh a sex joke i i think i understand it but it took me a while to process that okay so back to the analysis um so right here uh zane backs up uh mango could have gone straight up but that's sort of risky because as you see it doesn't work out here because he it would have been better the sweet spot to actually ride the mom the ride the wall to uh grab the ledge here but but since he went straight up he actually could you can cover every option and then you just die here shut up i can't focus shut up shut up shush no i can't i lost my trainer no my analysis is no i forget without everything i was saying i can't even focus anymore yes stupid no frank it's not frame optimal you didn't even ride the wall you went straight up there was no wall riding here you have to do the slight right and then just to slide up toward and he does the uh okay so here for those that don't know in melee um those are you can do even though even though fox is facing this way uh you can hit the reverse hit box so if you're on the left half a half of the circle instead of the right half um you can actually hit them toward it actually a lot of hitboxes and melee it depends which half of the circle it hits on and it determines which way you actually gets to get sent in ultimate this doesn't exist because an ultimate the moves are programmed oh if it's a forward air it'll always hit you that way but melee reverse hits exist which allow a lot of cool deep high level uh interactions and unintended effects which is really cool and right here it's cool he does a uh he he cancels right here uh so i'll just go back i'll just go back a bit uh he he goes you want to try to extend the combo as much as possible you have all the angles for jason's mom i shouldn't respond to that no i won't i won't respond i won't respond i'll continue analysis okay and then he goes for a nair here to get extra damage raw fluff ruff roll rolling on floor laughing floor laughing floor laughing floor laughing floor laughing floor laughing okay i'm done carry on everyone so i've noticed that zayn really likes to pummel mango a lot at the low damages and mango always like wiggles out like he does two wiggles here and i'm surprised zane's still going for it it's probably a habit but if zane's habit stays the same then mango can just keep rotating the control stick when he gets grabbed and always escape this yeah mango did that to me a lot when we were playing in a mattress in the past i would try to do like pummels in situations that other people wouldn't wiggle out and he would be like preemptively just rotating the stick early just in case that in case he got grabbed because that beats the chart of matching the pummel um and then that that right here this he would have got out here but in earlier interactions he did get up um and then you go for this and i don't know why zane sometimes dashes forward and sometimes dashes back but i guess the result's the same so it doesn't really matter here and that's guaranteed chain grab you do this and then mango tries to sdi here and right here you could up air but here i don't know if i don't know if i agree if this particular upper i guess what zayn was trying to cover in case mango tech rolled to the right but by by covering tech roll to the right what he's actually doing is he's giving a weak a weak up air here which means mango could probably crouch that as he did and now we're back in neutral and now nobody has the real advantage like mango could could try to attack but technically nobody has advanced here both players can make their own decisions man could go back up here or anything so so by zane going for that up there to cover techno to the right he's actually sacrificing uh miss tech tech roll left and tekken place by giving it a weak hit which allows mango to escape the combo so i'm not quite sure if that's the best decision or not but uh just wanted to give some insight on how that interaction worked and right here and then of course manga knows he's going to uh di go he has to diy for a can combo because uh of course you know why wouldn't he do that way there it's just too risky it's right here yeah see see he goes for see how zane's covering tech row right but he he gives up he he makes the left the left three options a weak hit and right here of course you know that magnets coming down this neutral interactions and right here four there is actually this is frame four forwarder for those that don't know uh ford air comes out on frame four uh up here comes out on frame five um so it is actually one frame faster for the four there to connect depending on the situation but in this particular situation zane also had the 50 50 of dining of because if you look here like look the ford air easily lands but i think even the if like he probably probably no guarantee would have still been able to mix up with up air if you know that he's going to di for the forward air which is diy uh you could do the up air and then if you're dying away for that up air to hit then you can actually run up and spike there but that's less common because the forward is easier to land by being one frame faster and that's that one frame sometimes makes a difference so it's some nerdy stuff but yeah and then right here he finally hits the jab but mango's at such a high height that he grabs leg immediately after and lead shot fairs for some reason and mango's going to the high platform zane's not been covering that well and mango wave wave lands down and then zane is just backing up and not swinging even though he he could swing but he just never does i guess he's just so used to respecting the led zest oh he goes for that oh he missed he messes up the comment he really thought it would land no i don't know manga just isn't let's dashing uh yeah i swear if you practice that for an hour it it'd be like a much more broken because it ledge is actually what's broken about fox he's just winning because he's so good at the other parts all the other parts of melee but he's not like abusing like fox's brokenness he's just really good at all the other stuff that it he wins regardless in theory if he was to let's dash it'd be even better um so he does run shield here and he's crouching trying trying to move in trying to get the overshoot here just in case zayn dashes back which he does a lot that bear trying to get him off stage real quick go for shield grab right here zane always looks for tech roll in in order to get right here if it's a quick forward throw zane's usually looking for tech rolling to upbeat um there mango did get up attack which gave zayn the time to a fourth throw see when zayn's not when zayn's in the situation very smart species and he's in a situation where he's not short to do he always favors covering center because it's consistent and so like right here he'll be he's looking for tech zane is definitely looking for techrow in he would upbeat if he tech rose in or he'll just do the center stage option because right here if zayn dash is back it covers roll in but it also covers get up attack so theoretically if if mango was to choose regular stand up he would be able to either get a shine attack roll or jump and would have been fine so in this same interaction assuming the same habits come into play the correct response for mango here based on this mentality of zane in this particular situation was to stand up normal instead of gap attack that would have left not enough vulnerable frames to get it upbeat it would have been back in neutral just cornered and that's how that match ended and now dreamland again because it is technically fox favorite it's just for some reason zane is way better than every of her morph on g-man could be specifically last game that's the the thing i was talking about earlier in remembering match one when i was talking about this yeah i honestly i want to comment on that i don't know why leffen tweeted that mangoes fox sucks in tournament when mango won multiple majors and two evos with his fox that just it's like an objectively wrong statement and i just just doesn't mean that tweet just makes no sense it just seemed like an insult for no reason and it was it was not it was not even like an accurate insult it was just like it was a lie i don't know like it was literally just a lie insult like like amster beat mango and pools because amps is really really good you know they're both good and amps are being good and winning you know one good player beating another shouldn't be that surprising right so okay it's an upset but whatever i mean amps is really good and then leffen tried to turn it into okay well it's you usa silver rated amster basically represents me europe japan i mean we should not be it's for basically the seating agenda thing or this is my vibe and then he was just like i don't know it just that i'm not saying that's the thing that was the vibe i got that was like the first instinct i got that like based on the way he was tweeting and the aggressiveness and it was like your fox sucks i'm like how how did your fox suck and turn if you win two evos and multiple ever majors with that fox that doesn't even make sense that's objectively incorrect it doesn't it doesn't matter what your opinion is that's not a correct sentence no that's an incorrect sentence so it's mean and unprovoked and wrong in all the ways it's wrong am i wrong to say is any of the logic i'm using incorrect i don't think the logic i'm using is incorrect i think what i said is objectively accurate am analyzing trash talk i was i am analyzing the trash talk it's just like i analyzed when i was claimed to be two tears worse i analyzed that and i decided i disagree with that anyway no i'm i'm just kidding uh dark crowd uh cry cowboy for thank you very much for the resub to bling and i do appreciate anyone who supports me i'm just i'm just kidding around guys but i'm also not kidding no um anyway back to the back third game before i get too uh distracted all right back to dream uh back to dreamland because this is a good stage for fox it's just really really good for zane specifically all right so this is something zayn is really good at um zayn does a thing where like i don't want to make it about me but i've been doing this since 2007 a lot but uh basically you jump here and you threaten fair but with these platforms if you jump you can also double jump fair wavelands and then you get to mix up now you can mix up landing bear landing down air landing fare or waveland in either direction so that's what's really cool about this platform is you jump you can threaten the fair landing waveland or the double drone and zayn's specifically been doing this one recently um oh but unfortunate for zayn somehow the downer unlikely it center hits c doing ten darren's instead of 13 giving less hits done um but uh zayn uh mango doesn't realize it happens in time it doesn't capitalize but then you know random interactions mango predicts sane to run away because zayn does the dash back a lot and most marks do in general anyway oh but he gets some sdi away manga is looking for spot dogs it doesn't come out he goes back to center mango could have actually crouched canceled shining that down to it but he doesn't go for it there oh and this time mango goes for uh zayn goes for a pummel but uh at 21 he's still working he still gets out quickly uh i think zayn might have been able to catch him at the lead shot fair up there there i'm not sure right here um he goes for i probably think light shield might have been better there maybe they would have got to let's quicker because not the best spot and rowing is dangerous against a top player like rolling is really good but it's like top players look for it a lot so it's it's always risky if you're fighting someone smart so there's no objective best answer it's just like you're in a bad position that's all there is to it mix up appropriately and mango knows okay zayn i know you're scared i'm i know you're gonna run away from me you're in that mental state where it's like you want to get away right so but i know you i know that so even if like right here it's like look see see how mango is like okay i know in the quarter second future you're gonna you want to do a defensive thing so like you know the mentality they're thinking of right there right anyway and then this interaction uh the up throw this covers this up air covers everything roll to the right covers everything else successfully he gets a combo for it but he goes for fair a mango not expecting it so i missed the attack wouldn't expect him to expect that anyway um and then he goes for a greedy f smash but he's a little bit too slow mango gets the shield out and then he gets the up throw i i watched the last three sets of summit i didn't to be honest with you i didn't see most of summit i just saw like near the ends um uh thank you murphy for theresa may be happy to know you tuned into the summit and the stream notification may be even happier rip zane i mean i i don't think rip zayn is like the correct reply i mean zayn made a good 20 000 or so i i wouldn't really go as far as to call that a rip i just call that a slightly smaller w um but maybe that's just me being optimistic um you know considering when i won my summit i got 7k um i would say it's just a smaller win um but yeah uh okay so right here i want to explain this interaction uh so right here right here uh mango's covering the tekken place with an aerial uh or it covers mistake too yeah i got 7k for winning my summit yep i had to beat our model twice to do it um so right here mango tries to go for a dash grab to the left but uh zane buffers spot dodge you can tell it's buffered because not only is that the obvious smart thing to do if you're going to do it but you see the one frame of shield that guarantees it's from the c-stick pretty much um so mango actually tries to do the dash grab but he misses the dashback um and then zayn does the dodge assuming the dash grab's coming and then what would usually happen after that interaction is fox gets a five damage shine and that pushes zane away or something like that something not too far from that at least but that's basically what it the logic behind both interactions on both sides it makes sense it makes sense on manga's perspective and it also makes sense from zane's perspective uh cc means krauts cancel it's basically when you hold down and you pretty much land instantly and you're able to retaliate there's a lot of complexities to this desert shadow but that's the basic short version yeah i could write pages of like notes on the depth of crowds cancel in different scenarios and the different types of them but basically it's when you're like you basically glued to the grounds you land right away and you try to retaliate or you just don't get hit as hard um but as i said there's a lot more that saying it summarizing it in terms of only that doesn't do the justice to the depth of it but i could elaborate on but i don't want to do it right now i think i already did some of that earlier anyway all right here so this is what mangoes talk about in his interview when he said you just have to like narrow narrow marth so you can you narrow marth and right here i want to mention something some people don't realize this but you don't have to be in a hit a lot of people don't realize this you don't need to be in a hit stun in order to be guaranteed right here i think zayn is out of his stun around here see how he's tumbling i think zayn is out of his stun before this shot hits him however the shine hits him within a window faster than the four-door comes out the forder comes out on frame four and fox has a frame one invincible giant shine as long as you're within that four frame window uh you could be even like he could be out of his stun by like three or four frames and it could still depending on the situation and details of the situation it could potentially still be guaranteed so if you go for an air and you're like oh this might not true hit stun combo it doesn't necessarily matter because it cannot be a hit training mode combo but it could still be guaranteed a lot of people don't think about that but that's a very big part of uh top level optimized smash and right here uh this is an interaction where actually the optimal play here would have been to lead role um but mango was so sure that zayn was going to do this early at b because zayn was thinking the ledger always going to happen right because zane realized he wasn't going to make it but there was always that like 20 chance he might make it right so mango knew that he could just do the um the bear here uh however i do want to also mention and show that lead draw was objectively better but i want to explain on both sides the logic so right here basically it wasn't totally obvious if he was gonna land like he it's pr like for me i could tell i'm gonna die but like if he was just a little bit more upright it would have been he would he would have been living and to be fair especially in the moment of the battle you're not thinking of like or you're not always going to be 100 sure so when when in doubt this bear is safe because this bear kills but if man goes wrong he's still totally fine um objectively if we're talking about optimized play the ledge roll is the best and even if you ledge roll not only do you get an instant kill hedgehog at any percent that it would have been but you can also get a guaranteed grab guaranteed up smash or guaranteed whatever hit you want before mark can do anything about because it was 30 frames of landing lag on stage um so ledge raw was the best option but what mango did was the second best option and was also good enough in this scenario is basically the summary of that scenario now i've also seen the same scenario happen multiple other times but that's the logic as for zayn zane is always primed for covering uh not getting hedgehogs in that particular situation because he thought ledgeral was coming um so for if zayn wanted to adapt here he would have to predict that manga was going to do the the bear and he could have just went low and just done an up a waited a bit more to full commit to the upbeat in this spot avoiding the back air and hoping that mango didn't press let's roll but legerel would have covered every option here so i'm just wanted to explain all the aspects of this so it makes sense to any viewers watching this same interaction happens over and over so i'm not uh in the future so i'm not gonna like go over the future ones in as much detail since it's the same thing as i'm describing now i just watched mango play that stock and i feel like you're just playing uh and the downer mango's really good doing that downer here and as you can see even though he messes up the shine combo here fox being close to marph is still his favor oh but he messes up mango did that up there he was trying to do a running up smash i'm almost positive oh no sorry he was either doing a running up smash or a shine short hop near a short hat up here it's one of the combos he does shine up there but uh he expected this trying to hit first off it didn't and then not only that but he meant to uh did a short hop shine short up air is a combo i think oh this is either a shine up smash or a shine shirt up here it's one of the two but he accidentally full hopped instead which you know the mistakes happen this is how it happens sometimes right here mango knows that zayn's uh so right here mango's like oh crap i messed up um so now i'm in a bad spot i'm on the platform right so he's thinking that right but then he knows that like of course you know zayn has center of course he's gonna swing here why wouldn't he you know why wouldn't he swing here right so of course you know maybe short hop maybe full hot whatever but mango knows okay well there's a very small chance that zayn is gonna think that i'm gonna be moving over here so i'm gonna take this route to escape i'm going to take the outer route why why would i take the outer route even though it corners myself more well because i think zayn's not going to cover it so i don't i don't think zane is going to swing here and he didn't and so you take the unexpected route and now you now you lance um you didn't i mean he still could it to be fair he didn't have to be in this situation where he's blocking that fare but uh from the mo from moments prior by avoiding the first fare like from right here he could have ran under zayn like he could have landed and then just you know got under him but he chose to just uh do that instead and then he's really good at doing the overshoot because he knows zayn likes to dash away not to mention even if zane did a different button like if zane did like a down tilt or a jab or something it's still like crowds cancels that so it's still really good for fox to like make these reads where you like the risk rewarded fox doing like oh i'm just gonna like wave that out of shield you know when you're still when you're wave dashing out of shield as long as you're holding down in some way like at least the 45 notches or or more downward you're still crowds canceling in some way and uh not only are you low profiling but you're also crouching which gives you the bonus of like even if marth downtown next instead of dash away you still want to crouch that too and crouch jabs and stuff so you're still in like it's still a good risky word because if he dashes away you're just in a really great spot but even if you get hit like if he down tilts next fox is point blank it probably won't push him back because it's the weak down to that point blank against the crowds canceling fox and you can still get the wave shine combo i i hope this isn't going over your heads um i apologize if it does i'm just explaining what i'm thinking and right here um so mango is really good at this thing where he does wave shine into neres uh so mango does wave shine teners a lot but zane wants to do the auto the you know the thing i taught you guys earlier where you do the uh you crouch cancel instant amps attack so basically you hold down the c-stick down away down left down right or straight down the control stick depending on what your goals are and press and hold r just before press and hold r just before you think you'll get hit that can cover it can tech roll in case fox does up smash and it can sometimes depending on the percent um amps attack in case of the nair however i think he was zane was looking for the up smash here which is why he did it at that percent because you can abso take the tech roll at like zero percent tech roll take down maybe even take down reverse the situation but a mango he did that he did the crowd's cancel but he didn't get knocked over like he expected probably because he was expecting up smash or thought maybe the narrator would knock him down then probably because ever foxes up smash most likely so he just has that muscle memory habit oh i got shined i'm gonna do the amps attack inputs right on muscle memory um and then now he's doing the spot dodge and the reason he's doing spot dots is because if the amps attack option you know when you hold down the c stick see by holding that r and down the c6 you do the buffer dodge but those are also the inputs you need for the ampsitec so it's like the same input so if the one if the plan a doesn't work out you the plan b is you do this ugly looking spot dodge that makes them look like a scared noob but it's actually for the reasons that i'm saying fun fact mark's led up tone is not actually invincible uh even if marth does a tas perfect let's dash up tilt you can still hit mark before it's up till it comes out because mark's less dash is actually that bad which is why you have to use other mix-ups uh goes for the up tilt it could have been up there it's really hard to say what's objectively the best um there's no like objective best because of all the platforms uh or maybe there is i just don't know yet up to it's fine there uh uh up toe's fine f smash is fine up air is fine how many frames is up till it hits on frame four uh i don't count okay i'm not talking about bonk dashing i've never even seen that done in a match in my life so assuming bonk dash the thing i've never even seen ever does assuming that doesn't exist then what i'm saying it's true as far as i know that's working out yeah until it's frame six i think maybe it's seven i think it's six i think mango actually could have just double jumped over him i mean it's supposedly i've just never seen it anyway right here mango could have just like tried to trade with the backer fox's backer does 15 damage and would probably trade here wait to see yeah oh oh he does go for the bear he just he waits too long he should have started his bear three frames sooner or at least two frames sooner two or three he should have started the bear two or three frames sooner and then he would have traded with marf hands here it would have been a trade and it would have been a trade with its favorites fox and both position and damage tas ecb manipulation yeah which explains why i've never seen it in a match stuff that doesn't actually matter in tournament i think that's where mango makes money all right mango's going in and when right here since fox is really close to marth and mark missed the crouch it's a really bad spot sure it's not guaranteed here but like right here mango could shine grab if he think oh man mango could have shined grabbed if he thought uh he would hold shield there's a lot of stuff fox can do here um you can wave shine to center if you think fox is gonna mark's gonna roll you could do shine aerial fade back you can shine drill and still shine just before they should grab you could shine grab there's a lot you can do and there's karen to play marv has but if you consider all of marv's options and all fox's options it's still an advantage position for that's the basic idea and i feel like even though like foxes should probably stop if foxes want to fight zayn better they need to stop doing this shine because just so you guys know fox's downer grab is actually a true combo on marth so is up smash but it's a little harder because you know it doesn't beat shield and so is reverse up tilt so i would i would like to see more drill grab drill up smash and drill up tilts from foxes against zayn's and zayn in the future because that would be the best adaption because right now all they're doing is shining him and zayn has a habit of always like when he's off stage he fast falls i used to have to be honest with you i had this habit too back when i was playing melee and wasn't playing brawl or over smash games i would always fast forward grab ledge right here um and since zayn only plays melee it's very likely he's always going to have this habit so you're kind of giving up your punish against zayn to get four damage when you could be doing something other than shine at the ledge because zayn who only plays melee is not gonna mess up doing the fast fall to the wedge he knows that after the downer hits him he's going to shine and it's like a reflexive instinctive habit that he's practiced over and over so any foxes paying attention they would increase their odds against zayn in that particular scenario by not going for shine after drill but by going for drill into either grab or reverse up tilt or up smash and as for the reasons i just said he's not gonna mess it up so if your goal is to be the best and overcome him that's one step you could take in a logical perspective or you could just shine and take the four damage and position and then it ends it doesn't have to end but if you want to be that way sure i'm just giving you the insight and the reasons behind it right here uh zayn does fair misses and then but that might be too high he might get grabbed yeah the the narrow is too high on the shield let's get got him punished here and then it's just like you know mix-up game on both parties actually i don't know this was so s no no this was stupid zayn okay this is where i'm gonna call zayn a stupid head so right now i'll explain why zane is a stupid head um so if zayn wasn't stupider he could just do a drop here into a backer which cover covers the straight firefox would miss and i don't i'm pretty sure straight firefox won't land here but even if it does you can cover that if zayn if mango does this firefox or this firefox that this is the steepest this is this the lowest one you can do this angle and it's the highest he can do this angle those are the two ones he should mix between to try to live because those are opposites and opposites complement each other because it makes it hard to cover both however you can cover both by drop by dropping off ledge right away positioning yourself around the air over here at a certain position here and covering a certain packard a certain spacing as close as you can get to him to you know the right timing and spacing to cover both angles and you can actually make sure fox dies guaranteed instead he didn't have faith in himself and then he had to settle for less which gives manga more opportunities sure it ended up working out but it easily could have not if the different decisions were made just because it ended up working out doesn't mean it was the best decision there um and so that's why i disagree with the decision it was guaranteed it wasn't too hard but you didn't take it right here mango cannot go straight as you can see his position if he goes straight even this wall which normally is an easy wall to ride to go up he'll be slightly too low and from here this is a this is a big advantage position but when you consider all the mix-ups that are possible on both ends and human error it he's in a much better position now than he was there this is not guaranteed it still works out but the end doesn't justify the means in my opinion it was still what i said was still better and i'd explain the reason why and i'm pretty sure if zayn watches this and understands my logic he'll agree with me at least in this particular scenario oh that was so bad oh that was terrible um zane's waits on legend does stand up ugh no this is he's no this is not ultimate i'm almost confident that zayn did not mean to stand up normal because that's such a bad option that i'm pretty sure that that was an accident i'm pretty confident that was an accident probably he was trying to drop from legend forward stand by accident happens a lot when you have a controller that does good pivots uh because of okay so for those that don't know since i have to explain this because you guys aren't as nervous as me um well nobody is not blaming you um if you press down forward at the 45 degree angle the average controller especially a control that's really really good at pivots is more likely to read all of the inputs slightly which means if if you're well even then like to be honest your technique is more important than the controller but the control is still a variable in in some degree if you press down forward at the 45 degree the game makes you do stand up normal instead of ledge drop in order to do ledge drop instead of stand up normal you have to be at a steeper angle under the 45 degree like maybe anywhere between like zero to 40 degrees or something you know i'm saying but not the you can't be all the way down forward because an exact downfall will prioritize forward stand because it looks at the x and y if the game reads the x and y coordinates on a given frame and also when something called code develops like p-o-d-e it read different controls develop code differently on x and y values so with that considered as well uh even if you were at like say 41 degrees it might read as 46 degrees or something and then even if you did it the right inputs on a controller fixed code on the pentiometers it would have it could still be reading correctly on an older controller so in order to minimize all these effects you have to not only does it help to have a certain control that's good at it but in terms of technique alone you can improve your skill and technique at it by focusing more on a straight down press even if you focus on a straight down press what will probably happen anyway according to my own test on myself is that you would probably do like a 20 degree instead of like a 30 degree or something you're by constantly thinking about it you're still going to be doing down forward but it will be at a more downward angle and then you can be more consistent across a wider variety of controllers at different points in their lifespan um and all this nerdy stuff is stuff i had to think about because i spam led dashes and use a bunch of different controllers and vanilla melee and i also need controls good at other things for different characters so i was forced to study this extensively and understand it fully so that's some that's uh pieces of the information um it basically zane should focus on a more downward press and he'll he'll stand up forward less and he gets the bear and then he's dead and he is manga could have either led rolled or did that bear and as you can see by the timer i've only been nine minutes into discussion which is why i recommended to hold back and chat's like no don't hold back and i'm still holding back and you're seeing that's me holding back is still too nerdy all right so mango does the rising air and gets grabbed by the way he could have got jab reset here zane could have actually just done either a back throw down throw jab reset high percentage chance of missing tech because he was already pressing the r button to do the l cancel for the nair which means there was a high probability of missing a tech good risk reward overall in my opinion which would have got him a dash grab four throw down toe or up throw up up tilt tipper or up throw into other types of mix-ups so that wasn't everything oh but zayn is so greedy if the pommel zane can you stop pummeling the spacey zayn can you stop pummeling the spacey zane stop pummeling the spacey and mango here it's it's uh i think he called this the jigglypuff trick um where you you like so basically what's happening is by being up here no this i'm not even guys i'm not even joking when i'm saying i'm holding back it's just that my holding back is more than other people not holding back anyway um so to continue um see up here so mango by being here think of them think of the universe as the multiverse we're not in the universe we're in the multiverse okay one one multiverse mango goes here one he goes here another he goes here and there's probably many more now by being up here the multiverse can be extended into different possibilities this is a possibility there's a possibility possibility and then you factor in human reaction time and you have to think how do i win and as many multiverses as possible so right here mango decides to go here to try to trick this up tilt from missing a less intelligent player than mango would have been a stupid head and would have went here and gotten uptoted but mango knows that's zayn's focus on self-protection based on habits from covering other people and you do the intentionally tricky option by drifting back here why because it's unexpected and not what he's used to practicing against if a wider variety of foxes were to do that particular double jump and then drift back here is even to be more practice in that particular situation zayn might have even chosen the up air option instead or aiming for that spot more um instead mango gets a new reposition and now even even if mango does not get a punish here in theory he could have and at the end of the day from this particular frame mango has the advantage he could choose to show drop down right away like pull up and get a combo that's not what he ends up doing but i'm just showing possibilities and then so what does he do he drops down here he doesn't get it as fast as possible honestly if he did if he did an immediate show drop move he would have got it but mango has this tendency when he's on a platform to want to jump he does this a lot with falco and it's extra good with falco even more than fox but he does a short hop after landing on the platform or and or shielding an attack he does a short jump uh this is very good of falco in this situation mango does not start his bear as soon as possible mango could have started his bear here instead he does it two frames later and that gets the bear out but it's fine because it's from this moment it's still his favor it's still his favor in the mix-up tree he still had the overall advantage when you consider all multiverse possibilities that could exist i hope that what i said made sense it very easily could have went over a lot of people's heads i was trying to explain how by positioning yourself in a certain area there are unreactable possibilities and that was the first thing that came to my mind position human reaction time possibilities tricking people human habits stuff like that i tried to explain it in a way that could make sense okay it made sense but i'm making it more complicated than it is um my argument is that smash has more depth than most people think and everybody is just different distances away from theoretical perfection or the best that their human potential could be it's more of how i look at things um what's possible is what i consider and the logic behind things but i guess that's just everything when i think about the universe is just perspective so thinking of it think it is better to think of the things in a positive light but anyway i'm getting way distracted and off topic let me go back to this so right here fade back nair uh the fade back narrative mango did it would have won if if z if zayn did his nail as shown earlier it probably would have just been did three damage to mango manga would have just got away this uh this time it ended up working out right here uh mango accidentally illusions the wrong direction but zayn's zane the homie saves him it's it's it totally had nothing to do with the fact that zayn was slow on a reaction tech chase and desert totally deserved to get shined here nope had nothing to do with that totally zane being a homie here and then here mango thinks that he's gonna land on the platform and zayn thinks it too but then both players realize oops that didn't happen but then mango doesn't even press shine area or jump because he was like so caught off guard by that zayn was also off guard called off guard but zane was already at the advance anyway so he just both players react oh well i can get a jab and now this is a guaranteed no matter if he stands up normal or rolls it's free super free like even i can do it every time uh and then right here you can you want to up air all the options here but zayn zayn is uh well i don't understand like all zayn had to do was up there and hold the controls to just be more to the right drift more to the right of this up there why zane chose not to do that i don't understand i feel like he could have just done the same thing in a more efficient way that covered more options maybe there's something i don't know and he just wants to cover center but i feel like if you could cover everything just cover everything now i understand that manual could have slid off but you still would have got a solid 13 damage i mean technically you could slot off the upper no matter what but you would have gotten more damage just by doing the same thing drifting that way it would have covered all four options instead zane covers everything except roll to the right and then right here he's okay so a lot of the time when you see the the leg up uh when when you see fox's leg up you assume it's tech in place so you just grab and then he just grabs early he grabs super early this was zayn guessing zayn zane either was guessing nervousness affects him or the um the leg up also looks like fox's tech roll toward which is the tech roll here not to tuck away a technical way to feed her down tech tour looks similar to second place and yeah that's why i said it's not consistent unless you have the natural town of woods rope um and then so he tech to the left and he missed the tech in place because the feet look similar and right here uh mango's really good at this uh he'll overshoot you or he'll aim at you he'll even aim at your behind you right and he's really good at that but then if you try to go over him this is a really advantaged spot for fox like yeah sure mark can do things like counter or sort the downer at the right moment and stuff but when you consider the risk reward ratio and how much damage these options do and the likelihood of them landing compared to fox just bearing at any moment fox's bears is gonna win that interaction most of the time on average not only is he gonna win more he's gonna win with a stronger hit i mean it's a one frame time to hit raw to write with anti-slaughter up air i i would really like to talk to zane about the decision making on his specifically his platform options i'd really like to have that conversation with zane because there are things that either he doesn't know or i don't know or something where like he knows something that i don't know and i know something he doesn't know and i feel like us talking would be good because what sikka just said i don't fully understand the anti-slide-off up-air thing i i understand the concept behind it but i don't know like it's still something i'm not understanding i would i definitely need to talk to him at some point because i i do feel like there's things he doesn't know that i know and i feel like there's things and i also think the vice versa is true and then the basic aerial dash away dashing scrap pretty basic stuff it beats them just aiming at him um this time i was actually hoping that mango won because um i think zayn beat him most of the time i like zayn a lot and i i actually root for him at most tournaments um but this particular time i felt that mango had like i kind of felt bad that like zayn was like dominating all these things and mango didn't have as many victories so this particular time i actually uh was secretly uh uh in my mind one and one in manga to win even though i'm more close friends with zane by comparison um but and if it wasn't for zayn constantly winning repeatedly in the majority of these tournaments recently i forgot zayn already had his big wins and i i thought manger should have one once in a while too and also they're very uh they're very evenly matched they go back and forth it's just that the times that uh when mango wins is more talked about but zane has has many victories too but i honestly didn't really care um i didn't care too much uh but uh i just i was watching the game because it's fun i would have been totally i didn't really like i would have been happy for every person winning to be honest but yeah small small small opinion and that was the logic behind it for example in the same if they rematch them i might just be reversed you know i don't know and right here it's the multiverse i talked about before except this time he goes to the center and he miss he misses the old cancel but zayn doesn't capitalize or maybe he does l cancel then he fades back tricks him see if you do a fade back ariel they're more likely to miss their death stance scrap so i see how he's fading back the aerial not a super fade back but some fade back by fading back he's far enough away from the grab now imagine if mango didn't fade back and he would have been over here he would have been in marth's arms he would have been hugged um well not hugged but he would have been in mars arms but since he faded back you can bait out the death stance grab with a visual trick because you have to remember human reaction time is around 12 plus frames on average so at any moment that you see something on screen you can't react to it until about 0.2 seconds later so by being in a certain position at one part and when you at the moment that you have to make your decision you can do unreactable mix-ups a lot of people don't think about this in fact when i started competition i didn't think about it either um i just aimed at the opponent and then west wavedash back and downstream every time and then i realized wait a minute every time i'm always doing that like i wasn't used to fighting people so i just kept getting caught by it that's that's the basic beginner mistake and then later it's like oh um i guess i i have to do i have to bait him i have to undershoot i have to overshoot i have to camp and i have to i have to predict where he's going to be in the future so instead of aiming at him i'm going to aim behind him on purpose and there's other things you can do that's just the the most basic level of overshooting but if you always do that then they could just attack you early or just do something else other than dash back or wave that's back like there's there's layers of depth to this that is much more deep than what i just described but even the basic content concept i just described is something that as a beginner in 2005 i didn't initially know and i'm pretty sure that most people who like the average viewer probably doesn't know unless you are already a melee nerd yeah unreactable mix-ups is really important yeah when i started i couldn't beat dash back or wave that back and i just got two and three i just got three stalked by players who just dashed back and waved us back until i realized oh undershoot baits over shoot and all these other advanced things that are even more advanced less obvious mix-ups to that but that the basic concept is still very important even it's one even like nowadays like simple stuff like unreactable undershoot unreactable overshoot and mix that up with aiming at them and then all these other baits where like you jump at them but it's like you can waveland back or mix up drift here double jump here the way this here there's so many ways to like play reverse player type of stuff as well it's really hard to explain but so let's just assume that what i said is the end even though it's not just to keep it simple right there he tries to drop in but he says no that is the second time he evades that but then he's like i don't get hit and then he f smashes but zayn's always shielding that and as you can see by mango tricking zayn first he gets some surprises of shine hit when he just showed that he was going to shine earlier so he just did the same thing again it works see right there that's what i meant like unreactable mix-up it's like okay wow look i'm here i'm gonna i'm gonna have lag but look it's like you're thinking oh there's gonna be lag most foxes do a stupid dumb aerial here right and zayn's so used to the stupid dumb fox doing like a landing any landing aerial that he could just dance grab i don't even it's it's obvious he'd have that habit but mango knows people have that habit then he's unique so he would double jump here and he gets a free hit but he didn't get a free hit because the uppers if he did back here get a free hit but then if he did it back here he'd be crowds cancel up thrown by me um so as you can see there's always more depth on both sides this might seem simple but i think this is a really good uh this might seem like real a really dumb thing to compliment but i really like this particular upper i think this up here might have covered everything because you got to realize here's the thing you should realize a lot of people don't think about this even though the lead role would have taken him all this distance across the platform he doesn't have invincibility during the full ledger role he's not he's vulnerable the last 14 frames so even if the roll might go this full distance he might lose its invincibility over here meaning the sword in that particular scenario would have still covered all four options with a hit and he's at the percent where slav doesn't work so this particular upper is i want to compliment more than um than usual because there's more than meets the eye on this particular up here most people would just see that as a basic upper but i i i don't game three on dreamland all right right there man he could have downtown oh yeah he's getting sweet sweaters festival on dreamland uh if zane literally pressed down tote he killed if zane literally just pressed down so he won i don't understand why he jumped maybe he's just nervous i i don't understand why you would jump here oh wait a minute i think i might know now mango used his double joint right here and i don't think zayn initially realized it so mango might have thought that zayn manga yeah i see i see i see mango uses double jump but zayn didn't realize manga used his double jump zayn was going to go off for a double jump upbeat read or double jump illusion read then about it then zane eventually realized oh crap he's losing to the ledge i didn't expect that but in mango's mind sure he could have mixed it up but he actually didn't even have a choice and zayn didn't realize he didn't have a choice so he could have just done a down tilt at the right spacing and it would have covered almost everything or he could have even hedgehogged with three stocks to zane's one in this game three on dreamland yep he could have done a downtown or f smash or a nutribe or hedgehog and all or or four there or well not for it uh those other things i said are really good right here uh fox actually has he can mix up illusion illusion cancel and upbeat you can still cover it but it's harder so run off illusion so right here man uh zayn would run off zane's actually should be looking for runoff fair here just in case mango illusions oh but he missed the fair uh surprising i think he let me see that let me see if i would have got that let me look at it oh that was flubby yeah i would i would i would hit that um so zane just swung a bit too soon i would have did the same jump but i would have delayed my fare just a little bit to make sure i hit him i would have probably delayed my fair one or two frames uh zayn tends to swing earlier by comparison that's just not as good there and then this uppy oh that's that's so risky that that could have easily backfired he could have died zero but i think zayn's just thinking that he's down by so much he has to keep gambling um i think zayn's in my in the mindset that he he's gonna lose if he doesn't keep gambling and he keeps working out so in his mind he's probably thinking he has nothing to lose since he's probably gonna lose anyway so he just needs the next several gambles to work out right so he's probably thinking in terms of that mentality if that's the case that makes sense this is risky this almost didn't work that this could have backfired i mean it worked out but when you look at the percentages it's risky but when you think of it in the mentality that zane thinks he has nothing to lose because he's going to lose anyway then it makes a lot more sense and he is likely to win that interaction it's just scary when you're at only two percent but yeah i mean you have to be confident with your actions anyway not think about that anyway okay normally you could dash dance grab there but uh zayn i think zayn didn't knew that mango was trying to bait him and he was but then so no no one hit each other right here it's the same thing oh and if fox trades if fox gets close enough to trade with marth that's good for that's good for fox so fox getting in on mars is really good for fox as you can see his trade was very favorable in damage and a very damageable trade favorite trade for fox and he gets this but he's too far away he goes for a greedy up smash it doesn't work out and the mango's doing a lot of tech and place into crowds cancel against zane mango's been doing a lot of second place the crowd's against zane so like he'll try to upgrade a lot of options right but like it's he's not getting the the good part of the sword and by when by not tippering you you get no follow-up see right here right now it's back into neutral even if zane wins the next interaction that still has nothing to do with what i said prior but see like right now it's neutral mango has a multiverse of possibilities now what do you mean it's punishable oh mango fed the dash yeah say mango goes for that greedy see mango's so used to this makes a lot of sense from a falco perspective but check this out so with falco falco would have jumped higher falco probably would have jumped over that up tilt because falco's jump squat slower by two frames but falco also jumps higher and his falling speed acceleration is slower when you combine these three factors together you see that there's three that's three separate reasons why he would be in the air longer um and then he would have jumped over this back this up tilt and by jumping over that up tilt he would have got his own combo started uh it's a falco habit that mango has because it works really well falco it does work well fox but i'm explaining some reasons why it's probably more working with falco yeah i don't agree if the zayn's been doing those up errors that mango takes in place and crouches a lot that's been a repeating theme just in these three games where he does zayn does the upper mango takes and placing crouches that's something i noticed it's been such a dominant game oh see right here he tricked him this is like stuff that most people aren't even gonna do like people like mango and plot might do it once in a while but like it's just tricky stuff like look wait who like look see this air dodge look at this most people are not doing this and he doesn't eat mango doesn't even gain that much off doing it technically it's a big risk yeah no no it is it is okay it is great that the late ones i do agree fuzziness that it is great but like most people aren't going to do this and in order to beat that you kind of have to like swing early or swing late but if you do the stuff that's going to beat the normal falling aerial then this mixes it up yeah you land and get your jump back and now you can mix up and look he got punished from that plop and mangoes seem to both do this and it's really good zane thinks he can uphold again which i don't really even blame him i mean you i'm against most opponents you can but uh manga did a quick show drop attack this could be the last game of the tournament right here mango knows that he's in a scared mindset so he's uh doing things that are taking advantage of zane's mentality i don't want to say like mango's thinking of like mango is trying to think in terms of the way zayn's thinking that this right here and then the wave dash down to out space because he's mango's so confident that zayn is going to do a defensive option and not swing right now that's why he's doing the wave that's down stuff technically the act of just wave dashing down stuff like this isn't that it by itself isn't safe but you you can do things like that if you're very confident your opponent is in a certain defensive mindset because it allows you to get superior repositioning into the most ideal fashion that you want as an objective option alone it can just lose to any swinging moves but when complimented with a certain um knowing the way your opponent's thinking it could be useful to get further push your advantage state yeah he did yeah and then when fox gets it gets close to mark it's a big advanced state right here i'm surprised mango didn't ford air yeah i mean i guess upper makes sense i mean it still worked out i i don't know it's hard to say i mean like upper is fine but like do you think four dare would have landed i can't tell i can't tell if if mango did full hot fair i don't know if it would have worked or not do you think forder would have hit fox's ford fox and falco's ford air is actually a much bigger hitbox than people think yeah i'm thinking and probably yeah fuzziness i also think it probably would have missed but it was if he was like let's just say zayn was slightly more down left up air still would have missed but ford would have hit right you know what i'm saying like what if what if zayn was just like just slightly like you'd click and drag him a little bit down it yeah f f further does give nothing it is true i don't know and then technically zane could have just drifted that direct to the right and just fared or for example but he jumped up here and mark doesn't really have a good down air so he gets hit but we're also on dream out of the high platform but fox says i don't care up air up smash the risk reward is broken for me i'll just go for it whatever where it works i kill you doesn't work whatever stream the tokyo 2020 olympic games on nbc universal with youtube dinner made fresh and delicious wawa's got you covered enjoy dinner your way at wawa by the way guys if you enjoyed my stream don't forget to subscribe to the channel follow follow my youtube and if you want more what if you want to get really good at smash consider signing up for my coaching exclamation mark coaching and twitch chat or medified.gg it's also in my youtube description and my twitter bio and pretty much my bio of like all social media you could just google it all right now what we've been waiting for the fd games so mango's game plan seems to be to get zayn to swing and miss and by zayn swinging and missing mango can further and further slowly get the advantage in position such as cornering him manga also said this on the interview you slowly by making whoever swings first and misses they might not be at a tremendous disadvantage but they are at the very least at a slight disadvantage and you might not get hit directly but you eventually run out of stage you're not on the home run contest you can't back up forever you're still at a small advantage mango even started an interview he purposely was quartering zane cornering zayn um so dad stands corner zane zane would miss and then we keep running out of stage and then all it takes from there one good interaction can get zayn off stage nair shine horrible position for marth stuff like that uh thank you chris m yes for theresa mckay pounds all right so he got him he evades he gets zayn to swing and miss by being close enough to threaten that hey i might attack but i also might not zayn's like well just in case you attack i'll make a wall of attacks because it's consistent and this is another instance of zayn is like way too good at fastball grab ledge final destination so look zayn zane is always gonna do this like this is why i'm being like i don't know about these shines he's literally gonna do that 100 of the time zayn always assumes he's gonna get hit by shine because that's what everyone does he's played so many unranked foxes that just is going to do shine after the aerial he knows he's just gonna always have infinite practice that fast all he has to do is fast fall and then release down oh i got hit by shine when i'm off stage i press fast fall and then i release down i used to do this back before bro came out it's when if you're if you're used to melee alone and you fight spaces all day for in tourneys you're gonna have this habit what i'm saying is the foxes should be doing something not shine maybe hit him with a move then up reverse up tilt or just something you know what i'm saying otherwise you give it up at four damage now i get it shines by far the most consistent easiest to land but as you can see you're consistently only gonna get four damage so it's worth thinking is this really what i want to do mango accidentally double jumps that's weird uh he doubles up airs that's totally a mistake and he gets grabbed for it look he he doubles up airs he's double jump up airing nothing this is totally an input error and he gets grabbed for his troubles but he pummels out cuz zane's always mastering pummel let me see this one second zayn is doing walk forward grab and because zayn did walk forward grab and mango either did no di or slight back d i hard to tell which the walk forward made the misti eye or made the slight forward di slight back d i miss also here he didn't crouch cancel the bear and by not crouching that bear it leads to a situation where he can die and he did an accident yeah he's walked forward there it's possible that zayn that walk forward it could have been intentional but it also could have been trying to do dash forward dash back pivot grab hard to say which the intent was but it's probably one of those two right here even though uh right here he had an opportunity to cancel this back here and he didn't as a result he's in a situation where he could die mango's really good at uh evading the upbeat see he positions himself to evade it using positioning and timing and then fox grabs leads before marth mango's done this to me so many times with fox and falco mango has done this to me so many times at fox and falcon tournaments in like a decade and a half i've seen i've seen it all too much he does it in neutral when you're upping here and he also does it where he he's on ledge and he does this jump back flip at the right timing to like evade my uppy but still grab legs before me he's done those things a lot i i'm kind of desensitized to it because i've seen him do it to me so many times that like to me it's it's just normal but i guess to the average person it's like they don't think about all this let's see here up there it's not as easy to sd as people think but mango messes up his combo i'm pretty sure he could have extended that maybe not guaranteed hits but a huge positional advantage of stuff right here i don't know i i feel like manger could have jumped up i feel i don't know i this might be stupid to me but maybe margaret could have jumped up and did like a forwarder but he just gets hit with fair here and that doesn't make sense to me i don't know why i mean all zayn's doing his falling and faring like i feel like he could have gotten zayn could have got hit again this is what i mean look at this this is exactly what i mean zayn misses mango knows zane is going to swing and miss and keep cornering himself so look now zayn quartered himself and sure now mango's optionally cornering himself but he's still fox on a shield behind marth it's not really bad and mango put himself there on purpose so it's not like he had to do that he mango wanted to do that for a few few future planning reasons so at the end of the day you saw he pushed him to the corner so by making him swing and miss if you play the long game then you have the advantage if you play this short game then you run into zane's moves but if you play the long game then you push him to the corner at least that's what how this interaction worked in this match from these two players mango also mentioned this post interview and as i said zayn won this interaction next but it did that had nothing to do with the fact that zayn got pushed to a corner that just happened to do unrelated interactions that happened after there's something you can do to cover every option where like when you see any change in movement you always get ready for a dashboard when you see any change of movement you just do dashboard xd at the same time just like this but then even if you see them roll or something else my like reaction time instinct kicks and and i do something else when i'm playing my best i can cover all four actual all four options when they're cornered with that mentality it's something i invented a long time ago but i'm not like super talented at it but i uh i used to be consistent in it all right let's see what he does oh he gets greedy he tries to get as much pushing so here's what he does zayn's trying to push him forward but he should have just swung sooner like he got zing got too greedy zayn should have just been a little bit less greedy look see well he's already crossed up and now he's hitting him the wrong direction and it's clear he wasn't quite ready for or maybe he was but he was maybe thinking manga wouldn't tech either way one of those two are true he ended up winning later but those are unrelated to the reasons and that's just the flop it's hard it's hard to crouch i'm not even sure if you can crowd set that percent but the up air is really good against crowds cancel i don't know it's all i know is the upper is pretty decent against crouch especially the instant crowds because it makes when you when you do that the marf player thinks oh i'm going to try to crouch cancer grab you or something but then by mashing kraut's cancer gravity and not working out as you intended you you you always do the accidental get up attack and then mango knows that because you know if you have experience playing this game you just know that then you get up here again and right here it's actually not the best spot i had a feeling manga put himself in a spot where marv can just jump see like i don't know i don't know about that i feel like mango putting himself there by mango going this low he kind of gave zayn an easy escape route like if manga was to go here and then let's dash on here and then bear this spot that would have been perfect so if mango went here on purpose to make zayn think going high's the logical escape route but then mango did like the ledge dash that like me plop cody leffen etc do and then put a bear around this spot that would have been perfect but since he's just doing jumps in the ledge and not ledge dashing it's not working out as well because he doesn't have enough frame advantage it forces him to have to block an aerial and then you know the rest you know how it goes double jump beholding there oh that stanky leg oh yeah to mention this so here you just do you do the crouch down smash you have to actually be in uh you're missing the first move so he had to be hit out of his i think he had to be hit out of the normal stance so when you normal stand i think the last four frames are so you can get hit if you get hit on those frames you're in the half pound crash cancel state which is actually what you want against mars upbeat zero because it allows you to full crouch here but zayn is like the best mark in the world at teching the wall alongside forrest but then mango for some reason doesn't crouch the next hit i think mango could have actually crouched f angle down or crouched down smash or crouch down tilt there but he just didn't oh i mean maybe he got sakura angled okay yeah no he didn't crouch this one uh guys you can crouch cancer marks upbeat zero you just have to taunt or do miss an attack first guys there's two types of crowds cancels so imagine this imagine a mar imagine a fox standing now imagine a fox crouching now imagine a fox who either taunts and misses or does a smash attack and misses if the fox does a tawn or smash attack and misses well you don't miss a taunt but you know what i'm saying while you're in the as a backup plan while you're still in the lag animation of that laggy move if you hold down you're in a roughly half powered crowds cancel state a lot of people refer to this as asdi i refer to it as a like it's like a backup plan crowds cancel or half-powered crowds cancel that's what i call it where you're in a half-pound cross-cancel state now you think you might be thinking well why would i want to be in a half-proud cross-cancel state well i mean obviously it's good to do in a fight because you have a backup plan your plan a is attacking your plan b is doing that but in this particular situation you can't full crouch mars upbeat zero but if you're in the half pound crash cancel state you can now why is that that's because of the way the game's coded that um if a move is under 32 knockback or something then it doesn't let you crouch it so marth's upbeat is so weak and the full crouch is so effective that you're actually under 32 knockback and due to this glitch it doesn't let you full crouch weak super weak moves at zero however if you're in a half-powered crowd's cancel state you can still crouch this up be at zero so the people who are saying you cannot crouch can so mars upbeat zero are incorrect so i saw that in chat multiple times and you guys are not correct but if you're if you're talking about full crouch only then you are correct but i think most people don't know about the difference [Music] here right there that's a guaranteed combo however he didn't get the combo right and it seems like zayn is always looking for this see how he's doing the dodge i think that's in case fox is slow but it's also in case fox does running up smash oh that was an accident zayn meant to wave that's downhill and he full hop down here i do that all the time well i have more of an excuse though because i play the characters that play faster have different jump squat but still that's i understand that if you ever see marvel hop down there that seemed like it was for no reason it's because they tried to down to it and they missed it oh uh mango escape this chain grab because he's port too mango actually uh escaped this chain grab because the port two wait do you think um what did what neon laser what do you think was wrong about my explanation uh port four or the the port that's anywhere from two to four has the advantage over one or the one closer to the one is at a disadvantage the one close to the four is at an advantage because for some reason their throws give one more frame shield it's i think it's one more frame hit stun or one more frame to act or something i don't remember if it's because they act one frame because the throw act ends one frame sooner for you or if it's because this is one more frame stun it's one of the two i actually don't remember which one but it's you have one more frame to do the combos you think it's act are they in one more famous stun or do you do you end your animation one frame earlier i don't remember which one i don't i don't know every throw is like this i don't know why it's like that uh there actually are disadvantages port one usually has a good starting position port one usually has wins if you grab at the same time and port one wins if you grab lights at the same time so port one does come with its advantages so in a way it is balanced but the advantage of port four is still tremendous in a lot of matchups such as mar versus sheik sheik again anything of sheik or marth actually um port one's better on yoshi really i don't know but uh in morph sheikh you always want to beat port four sheikh that oh port four mark morphed or port four anything if like marvin sheik the throws sometimes that one frame changes combos a lot both escaping them and get end doing them so it's really annoying because one part just has advantages because they're a port four or one yeah i don't know i don't know it's kind of weird that wasn't actually guaranteed they did that kind of badly wait a minute and zayn wasn't was no zombie probably normally is anyone normally up here here but he was he wasn't confident so he did fair instead because of low confidence and he didn't go he didn't punish mangoes mango is not leg dashing and zayn's not punishing at all if i'm zane i'm going to punish mango's lack of leg stashes next time and if i'm if i mango i'm going to practice less dash anymore he's forcing it you know the wave dash out like also every time mango hit with the snare right that snare could have been a running grabber up smash which may or may not have killed i don't know actually that uh zane is adjusted to the spacing and now mango's over shooting he's bringing it yeah that's the that's the thing i meant from before right oh yeah so right here i think mango's using up instead of clawing to upsmash yeah i think if he if he if mango just clawed the writing that smashed it would have got this set up it two games apiece and mango is moving yeah again uh zane snares are not working out mangoes always dialing it back this time zane spaces around it but reaction tech chase is not as real as people think manga could have just shined him and did a flowchart which killed him but mango didn't shine there for some reason the the the firefox combos into the shine might come on the backer too this could be the last stock never forget guys remember what this is this is final d zane runs under him this time instead of dashing away zayn saves it to the end where he is under the dash under is good uh because if you think they're going to overshoot aim at you or overshoot you because it goes under them thank you never say yes twitch hi it's been 30 months and i keep saying uh stuff for even longer hope i'll be able to see you playing an attorney thank you very much thank you very much never say yes twitch um uh most people don't have the natural talent reaction tech chase has uh involves a higher level of natural talent in order to be as good as people think not everybody is going to peak at the same level you should definitely try your hardest to see what your individual peak is but not everybody is going to peek at like if you're expecting to get to wizrub's level of hard work alone then good luck i tried it didn't work uh thank you jim basco for the tier one thank you very much if you guys enjoy my content i would appreciate any support whether it's a follow sub twitch prime signing up for my coaching on exclamation on uh on medify meta fi.gg stuff like that fuzziness not everybody can do it i think it's also important to uh understand what you as an individual are like best at like it would be stupid for someone like me to try to poke wizzy when he's clearly better at it just like it'd be stupid for other people to play as great-based style when they're bad at it like everyone has their own things they're always they're things that they're clearly better or more talented or higher peek at than others yeah but fuzziness i can't do it uh yeah uh thank you vex sauce for the twitch prime oh i can't reaction texture it's falcon consistently i just can't do it on species consistently no i just can't i just think doing on spaces consistently requires a lot of natural talent um now zayn and mango mess it up all the time no i just fuzziness i disagree with you as somebody who has studied those three players you just named extensively they all miss a very large amount of the time especially when they're nervous in tournament you say that you think when they play well but don't you think part of them playing well it comes down to the fact that their guesses are correct i've literally watched parts of matches in both friendlies as well as tournament of zane extensively where he messes up early especially if he's nervous where he assumes this is a tech in place for tech grow because most players are in a certain mentality at a certain point it's not the same as wizzy just natural talenting it the whole way through without messing up i've played a very wide variety of people in 15 years and i definitely think wizzy's an extreme outlier human being with in terms of natural talent in there i think he's not normal in terms of what he's capable of in terms of that specific category i i think there's more guessing going on than you think i'm not talking about doing it i'm talking about doing it consistently but just to be clear and i'm talking about doing it consistently on species it's obviously easier on falcon when he has no wake up shine and it's obviously easier when the thing you're genuinely expecting actually happens anyway i gotta continue yeah fuzziness people also are worse in term when when they're nervous attorney right there mango could have shined them see that double jump you see how you see how the right now they're in stun and the next frame there's a double jump well honestly i don't know if that was if i don't know if we skipped a frame because the clock might have said 55 instead of 56 so it's possible this skipped a frame i'm not sure oh i see never mind it didn't if this was a shine then zayn would have taken four or five damage from the shine and manga would have got out so mango's port priority could have saved him but he chose double jump instead of shine uh i played a kirby superstar game uh yeah i always i averaged about 12 frames my highest my best ever is nine my worst is fifteen the nine was an outlier that only happened once and the fifteen's not liar that only happened once i think 12 12 was my average 13 was my second highest and 11 was my third i think 12 is my most common by far but i got a lot of 11's and i got a lot of 13s i'm pretty standard pretty average yeah the reason i'm good at things is because i'm very highly intelligent and nerdy but i'm not talented at it by any means i'm literally average oh this could be the tournament this could be the tournament let's see here oh my god he dropped it that could have been an upper and right here mango drops it and then mango drops it mango could have running up smash right here if mango just clawed or running up smash the game was over like the thing i do to kill like hungrybox a lot of time where you just run and press x and up c like x up c at the same time oh technically you press x first just claw the running up smash and you kill them instead mango went for grab instead of running upstream because he was nervous and or didn't trust his claw running up smash or i don't even know if he does that then he misses his dash on the up throw then he could come up with a bare upper or or a bear but he doesn't air instead and zane just falls without even pressing a move this is super nervousness flubs from both players it no it's not just one player making mistakes it's just that it's when a train grab is dropped you can notice it easier but that there are definitely both players making a lot of mistakes it's not just oh i saw the chain grab dropped any five-year-old can see that there's still things that are less obvious to a five-year-old that are still obvious when watching that you can see both players are fl flubbing but yeah i definitely think marf beats fox on fd i don't know why mango said that marv that fox beats morphinift i can see the argument that fox beats marth but i cannot see the argument that fox beats martha nifty i do think it's possible fox beats marth i personally think it's even but not on fd oh that's crazy zayn hanging on yo mango hanging on watch it mango for the he went for the running grab and then zane messed up his ledge dash probably needs to focus on pressing down more instead down forward mango accidentally back through that was the first shine ever so let's watch the stock again on another level yeah he just messed up the up throw there he meant to up throw and he baits out the fare gets a hit this is not this is the furthest forward shrine ever like look how far away he is i want you guys to remember that fox's shine is actually much bigger behind him this is the worst version of or shine i want to be very clear so you understand fox's shine behind him is significantly bigger than in front of him yet it's still this far in front of him no it's true for fox and falco so if you thought that's broken behind him will blow your mind even more mango used to main puff and he knows when to abuse low percent hitch trade when you take an air hit and trade like peach yeah it does make sense uh fuzziness what situation do you think mango did that that fall into him and trade thing uh falco's shine visually is bigger than foxes but fox's hitbox is way bigger which is kind of reverse of what you'd expect rewind a few seconds big house nine but let's not speak too soon can mango win twice on final divorce shine bangles just like playing on another level of mix-ups there sit there whatever i'm just going to continue here's 20 percent too soon reset flash is a big house nine but let's not speak too soon twice he knows that mango just knows the way zayn's thinking of the game oh wait he's double jump so he couldn't get an extension oh he could afford smash there well it doesn't matter because of the position it sends him right here he could have went for ken combo so this is a weird spot because i have that up here you could have smashed tipper or you could delay your reaction then come in combo but if he dies away from ken combo then f smash doesn't work but then but then you have to be scared of possibility f smash but zane likes there for some reason but i guess it worked out for him here's the thing mango has been playing so nice instant tech lead shot fair that's funny mango could mangoes double jumping out but mango could be shining oh he gambles everything on that and then the worst sweet spot what is this i don't know i don't know about this and then that was the worst upbeat ever what is that up e what is this up be what kind of upbeat is that that's disgusting this this is definitely like player nervousness this is this that that is the most like you would not see zayn do that in a friendly where he doesn't care to be fair i i totally understand because i've been there a lot of times i'm just i try to logically understand why things happen um but i mean i i definitely fully understand because i've also been the marth in that situation on his counter pick in this game 5. here's the thing mango's been playing so nice he has not been sloppy at all but if he starts messing up anything people need to remember that people are humans that that is the worst upbeat i've ever seen zayn do though dude this is a guaranteed bear right here you just drop from the ledge with back and position a bear to cover the lowest angle and the highest angle like if you just drop from leisure back float over here put position yourself at right you might not you don't even need the bear right right away you can delay your bare bit and just cover the lowest angle in the highest angle when you tipper it or just hit it and then you just cover everything right now he's getting extra chances you see this this isn't a guaranteed kill there's more options for both players and that that that i remember that that was terrible this is definitely nervousness him all the way down to the bs abyss two stops a piece but man catching him with a big up air oh the drill okay oh that was that was good but man catching it with a big mango's tricking him with his drift and jumps you can see like the jiggy puff main like that's risky but when you have a reed it's not as risky because you have an idea of how your opponent's thinking of it and then light shield the 2006 so funny story i actually uh me and a link player named trevor actually um we actually invented that together uh he he found out that he told his friend that hey if you do the light shield you can fast fall and grab you can grab ledge i i asked him to explain to me and then i realized if you tilt your shield not only does it make it more likely that your shield will get hit but it guarantees that you get pushed to the ledge instead of if you don't die your shield it depends if you hit the left half or the right half of a shield so i figured that out back then and i told him about it uh no i i i i made it more expanded and then i told pc chris and ken about it and pc chris ken and ken used it against each other in the uh the first few mlgs in 2006. fun old story and then obviously you have a big advance when that happens one sock away from mango oh all right here mango thinks he's going to wave that shin or dashing this hits you gets a free combo he realized he was too late but he knew that zayn zane always spams the spot dodge after f after fox shines zayn zayn's always doing the spot dodge i think it's because zayn's trying to tech roll in case the fox does instant up smash but he's doing it like every single time and it's a habit that if a fox player could purposely exploit this like if they want to wage shine zayn and it it's it's very clear zayn was fighting foxes that either way shine there or especially wavestream upstream at low damage is probably used to attacking it instantly like instant ground tech and then reversing the situation on them with a frame advance a grab attempt that's what i'm thinking and but now it's like such an ingrained habit that's hard to break the habit when you need to and now it's getting like exploited here and it did the drill again and look again look dodge watch this watch this watch this zayn gets hit drill shine james is going to dodge watch this again drill shine zayn's going to dodge let's go drill shine zane is going to dodge drill shine zayn's going to dodge again see what i mean see my point it's because of the habits he's trying to do the amps attack as a defensive option but now it's a habit that can be exploited so i wonder if i should do this on two videos because i've all this whole time has only been the first set and confidence

Channel: Mew2King

Views: 32,777

Keywords: mew2king, m2k, jason zimmerman, mew2king melee, mew2king marth, mew2king ssbm, lol m2k, mvg mew2king, m2k smash bros, mew2king stream highlights, mew2king summit 11, mew2king summit analysis, mew2king summit 11 analysis, mew2king analyzes summit 11 grand finals, mew2king analyizes mang0 vs zain, mang0 vs zain summit 11, mang0 vs zain, mew2king mang0 vs zain, zain mango, zain mango grand finals, mew2king analyzes mang0 zain grand finals, mew2king analysis, m2k summit 11

Id: Nb6I5CIzaFM

Length: 185min 11sec (11111 seconds)

Published: Mon Jul 26 2021