MESSED UP CHURCH: Encounter Evangelism Exposé

welcome to the messed up church we're gonna be doing a messed up Church interview with none other than Steven Kosar blogger for the messed up Church the curator of the Museum of idolatry and we're gonna be talking today and about his latest article on the messed up Church blog about encounter evangelism what that is what it is is it biblical and you know stuff like that we'll even be talking about Christ alignment and Darren Wilson and the holy ghost movie [ __ ] guys but let me whirl this up real quick here hey Steve how you doing good I'm actually kind of frustrated because I had computer problems so I'm a little cranky er than normal but I always enjoy talking to you and hopefully we'll well it will give people some really really helpful information but we'll have some fun along the way as we usually do all right you cranky huh little cranky yeah I'm I'm I'm just on my first serious cup of coffee here so that should help all right there should be a noticeable difference between when we begin and when we end based on how much of this is missing right on okay okay so the the crankiness level will decrease is the coffee inside right increases got it okay let's let me pull this up real quick here and we need to take a look at your blog post and I've made it so your screen your your in camera here but you're a little smaller recent blog posts put up on January 8th the fortune telling encounter Gospel of Bethel and the NA are explained now what was fascinating is that when we did the dumpster fire episode where we really kind of played for everybody to see you know what what goes on in a destiny card reading from Christ alignment they were talking about having these pagans these New Agers have an encounter with God or with Jesus and stuff like that and this doesn't sound anything like evangelism to me this just sounds really goofy but the reality is this has a historical antecedent and the historical antecedent in what we're calling the encounter gospel which you've called the counter gospel goes all the way back to John Wimber and his concept known as power evangelism this belief that somehow people aren't going to want to make decisions to become Christians you know invite Jesus into their heart and unless they experience the power of God this is also wrapped up in their concept of the gospel of the kingdom that somehow the gospel of the kingdom has to be demonstrated with signs and wonders and miracles and things like this and then once that happens people will have an encounter with God they'll make a decision for Jesus and stuff like that that's kind of the idea and and so I really think that's what you're getting at the heart of yep but you'll walk us through your fortune-telling encounter gospel blogpost well okay so I hear certain phrases being used over and over again and I know that a lot of people who are solid Christians might hear those phrases and insert a correct Orthodox biblical meaning into those phrases because that's what they are assuming it's you know it's not a bad thing to to think well of another teacher or pastor it's not a bad thing to give people the benefit of the doubt the benefit of the doubt but I think when we hear people like with the Christ alignment folks Chris valeton and Bill Johnson a lot of people associated with the NA are when they say people need to have an encounter with Jesus they're not talking about what has historically been Christian evangelism or Christian a church building you explain the Gospel message it's primarily about a gospel message the gospel is good news it's not a it's not a invitation to have an encounter in the sense that you know you have to personally experience some supernatural thing that's happening to you happening to you directly yeah the gospel is and this is the wonderful thing about the gospel it means that anybody can share it it's not about us and our ability to somehow do it correctly with enough miraculous goings-on it's it's about us simply proclaiming the historical message of Jesus who was God and flesh came to earth died on the cross for our sins yeah and when we repent of our sins we can be absolutely free from our sins we can be free from the wrath of God it's a wonderful message and there's a lot of different Christians throughout Christian history who have who have explained it slightly differently they've structured their churches differently they've had different theological leanings but when we start talking about this encounter gospel you keep digging beneath the surface trying to find well where's that message of sin where's that message of we need to repent from our sins so that we can be forgiven of our sins it's not there I've not found it and that was the thing that caused me to want to write some kind of a somewhat snarky article and create this really obvious catchphrase so that when people hear this in the future from somebody like Bill Johnson they'll say oh that's that thing that crazy angry Kosar guy or that crazy Roseboro guy was talking about it's not that we're angry it's that we're really concerned that people aren't hearing the gospel message which is so simple you're a sinner your sins have separated you from God and Jesus came to die on the cross to pay the penalty that you should have paid and he did it on your behalf that simple message is just not there so it's been replaced with this and this is how I summarized it and it's a little snarky it's a little obviously when you summarize something you're you're leaving out whatever nuance might be there but I said number one people aren't really that bad they just need to be convinced of how special they are they need to understand their true identity that's a really big catchphrase yeah you'll you'll even hear people talk about how you're a royal prince or princess or you're a part of the royalty of God a lot of people use the symbolism of Kingdom swords lions all this stuff about royalty and they always combine it with your true identity and then the next one is religion is the real source of people's problems not rebellion against God yeah or sin and this is a this is a serious issue if we think that all religion is the problem there's a there's a we could do a whole podcast on just that topic because well you haven't even defined religion in what these people tend to do is they say religion and everybody is kind of supposed to know what they mean but it's never really clarified it's always the people basically like us who think that you should be more attuned to what the scripture says and you should actually be discipled by a pastor in an actual church those things are kind of just tossed aside by calling them religion so the next one is number three God is desperately trying to get people to accept him but he's been hindered by the historic Christian Church with its specific biblical teaching about salvation heaven in hell the atonement of Jesus Christ and all other forms of unnecessary head knowledge found in the Bible yeah that's a big one and I think some would accuse you of misrepresenting their their position but I think you've rack yer utley summed up what they're basically saying it's as if listen historic biblical Christianity and sound doctrine has gotten in the way of people experiencing these Jesus encounters and they don't need to hear you know anything biblical they just need to experience Jesus or the Holy Spirit or whatever yeah and I think you know like I grew up as a kind of a mainstream evangelical for most of my adult life and when I saw all the weird stuff in the church it did a lot of things and one of them was to do a ton of research and I was in an na R style church so it really kind of shocked me and it caused me to do just ridiculous amounts of research on Bill Johnson and Rick Joyner and Mike Bickle and all these things and what that forced me to have to do was to realize that I knew nothing about church history or theology yeah and there's and the two are really almost the same because history and theology are a thing that has developed over time and all of our ideas come from someplace you know and when you pretend that your ideas are simply coming from the Bible you're you're just either being delusional you're you're being dishonest because like you said even the things that people like Todd white teaches he's getting those ideas from other people who got them from other people who got them from other people yeah and so everything can be traced back to theology good or bad it goes back to somebody's got a version of how they view their faith and that's just a another way of saying theology soon as you start talking about God or Christ or Jesus or the Bible or anything you're talking about theology so this idea that theology is bad and you're just gonna have an experience with God is a real overly simplified false dichotomy yeah but because like begs the question where in Scripture number one is it modeled for us and number two is it taught that as far as evangelism is concerned you know you need to go and facilitate encounters you know I I it's not in the book of Acts I mean none of the Apostles did this you know it and so we've got a problem in fact let me let me kind of pull this out and that is I'm gonna pull up my Bible real quick here in just I mean if we look at a biblical example the Apostle Paul on one of his missionary journeys he goes to Antioch pasilla and it's you can find this in Acts chapter 13 and you're gonna note there's no facilitation of Jesus encounters at all instead there's the delivering of good news and the categories of law and gospel of sin and grace and what Christ has done for us on the cross and the miracle that Paul points to is not a miracle that he's performing there in the synagogue but the miracle he's pointing to is Jesus's bodily resurrection from the grave now let me grab the context here acts 1313 is where I'll start it says this Paul in his companions they set sail from paphos came to purga and Pamphylia John left them returned to Jerusalem they went on from purga and came to Antioch in Pisidia and on the Sabbath day so it's a Saturday they went into the synagogue and they sat down after the reading from the Torah and the prophets the rulers of the synagogue sent a message to them saying brothers if you have any word of encouragement for the people say it so Paul stood up and motioning with his hand he said men of Israel now listen to what he does here no encounter no he doesn't facilitate any encounters does no fortune-telling doesn't lengthen anybody's legs or anything like that he says men of Israel and you who fear God listen the god of this people Israel chose our fathers made the people great during their stay in the land of Egypt with uplifted arm he led them out of it and for about forty years he put up with them in the wilderness and after destroying seven nations in the land of Canaan he gave them their land as an inheritance all of this took about four hundred and fifty years after that he gave them judges until Samuel the Prophet then they asked for a king and God gave them saw the son of Kish a man of the tribe of Benjamin for forty years so you know that he was just giving a summary of salvation history from the Old Testament kind of giving a quick thumbnail sketch of the overarching story the Old Testament verse 22 when he had removed him that Saul he raised up David to be their king of whom he testified and said I have found in David the son of Jesse a man after my own heart who will do all of my will of this man's offspring God has brought to Israel listen a savior this is what we need by the way Jesus as he has promised before his coming John had proclaimed a baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel and as John was finishing his course he said what do you suppose that I am I am NOT he know but behold after me one is coming the sandals of whose feet I am not worthy to untie brother's sons of the family of Abraham and those among you who fear God to us has been sent the message of this salvation you can summarize that as the gospel because that's what gospel means good news for those who live in Jerusalem and the rulers because they did not recognize him nor understand the utterances of the prophets which are read every Sabbath and fulfilled they fulfilled them by condemning him and though they found in him no guilt worthy of death they asked Pilate to have him executed and when they had carried out all that was written of him they took him down from the tree laid him in the tomb but God raised him from the dead and for many days he appeared to those who had come up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem who are now his witnesses to the people and we bring you the good news that what God promised to the fathers he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus as also it is written in the second Psalm you are my son today I have begotten you and for the fact that he raised him from the dead no more to return to corruption he has spoken in this way I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David therefore he said also in another Psalm you will not let your Holy One see corruption for David after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation he fell asleep was laid with his father's and he saw corruption but he whom God raised up did not see corruption so let it be known to you therefore brothers that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you so you know he's preaching repentance and the forgiveness of sins he's he the miracle he's pointing to is the resurrection of Christ and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses and then he doesn't have an altar call watch what he does see says beware therefore lest wood has said and the prophets should come about look you scoffers be astounded and perish for I am doing a work in your days a work that you will not believe even if one tells it to you so you're gonna note here that no signs no wonders no God encounters and I want to give another cross reference because this was a text that was referenced by Bethel Church in their official response regarding Christ alignment and they referenced this and and it's just duplicitous what they ended up doing but I'm gonna wear it Acts chapter 17 and I'll start at verse 16 for the context and we're gonna know this is evangelism going on in the part of the Apostle Paul no signs no wonders he didn't set up a fortune-telling tent he'd use no destiny cards or anything like that he did not facilitate encounters he preached Christ and and we'll see what he does here acts 17 16 now while Paul was waiting with them at Athens his spirit was provoked within him as he saw that the city was full of idols so yeah ancient Athens was known for its idolatry so he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and the devout persons and in the marketplaces every day with those who happen to be there notice he's engaging in reasoning right and some of the epicurean and stoic philosophy also conversed with Paul and some said what does this babbler wish to say others say well he seems to be a preacher of foreign divinities because he was preaching Jesus and the resurrection so now we know that the content of the preaching Jesus and the resurrection was preaching at Antioch Pasadena in acts 13 and so they took him brought into the areopagus saying may we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting for you bring some strange things to our ears we wish to know therefore what these things mean now all the Athenians in the foreigners who live there would spend their time in nothing except telling or hearing something new so Paul standing in the midst of the areopagus said men of Athens I perceive that in every way you are very religious for as I pass along and observe the objects of your worship I found also an altar with this inscription to the unknown God what therefore you worship as unknown this now I proclaim to you and this is an important move here because Paul doesn't point to Zeus and say you know God is a lot like Zeus or anything like that he goes with the blank slate because these idolaters had kind of hedged their bets if we had forgotten any deity you know the the one we forgot or don't know about you know that we've set up this altar to that one so Paul is saying yes this with them going we hope we didn't miss anybody yeah exactly and this is not Paul somehow starting off you know you know it you know like the way Christ's alignment does basically you know the engaging in idolatry for the purpose of them recognizing that no it's just a reference it's a rhetorical tool to say okay the unknown deity let me reveal him to you because yeah you recognize you may have left one out well let me tell you about him that's what he's doing so what therefore you worship as no as unknown this deity I Dow proclaimed to you the God who made the world and everything in it being Lord of Heaven and Earth does not live in temples made by man nor is he served by human hands so right out of the chute he blasts idolatry he doesn't engage it he doesn't engage in it he blasts ins it okay so God does not he's not served by human hands as always need isn't anything he since he himself gives to all of mankind life and breath and everything and he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth having determined allotted periods and boundaries of their dwelling place that they should seek God and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him yet he is not actually far from each one of us for in him we live and move and have our being even some of your own poets have said for we are indeed his offspring so being then God's offspring we ought not to think the divine being is like gold or silver or stone or an image formed by the art by the art and imagination of man the times of ignorance God has overlooked but now he commands all people everywhere to repent because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead I mean that's pretty straightforward you want to know what evangelism looks like we have two salient examples from probably one of the most prolific and successful missionaries of the ancient church you know the Apostle Paul and so you're gonna know he didn't facilitate encounters he preached repentance forgiveness of sins and the miracle he kept pointing to over and again was the miracle of the resurrection of Christ from the dead and and he didn't pull any punches and he even condemned idolatry explicitly in his gospel proclamations which and this makes perfect sense because well you know idolatry is a is a breaking of the first commandment yeah that's kind of a problem yeah yeah it's kind of an issue so kind of an issue yep and so over and again but people you know like Bethel and some of the seeker driven guys they they look at acts 17 and basically say that proves anything goes you can contextualize Paul wasn't doing what they're claiming I mean they're they're actually twisting that now I want to play a little bit of odd for you hope you're sitting down Jen Hodge from Christ alignment put a video together and I want you to hear her own explanation for what it is that they do they even have like a standing marketplace destiny card reading booth out there in Australia but I want you to hear what she has to say and we'll try to interact a little bit with her hi guys here we are today at Dan you know market I'm seeing you waiting for the team and I just wanted to share this today to encourage people to get out there in any way that you can into the marketplace we have a permanent stand here at Danby no market and we're because we've done this by faith we done this by faith yeah it sounds like maybe she got a dream destiny thingy revelation and she's done this by faith you know where I believe people massive God encounters has been and now with them they come to us we don't let me back that up did you hear she says they give people massive God encounters yeah I have no idea what that is because well I mean she's kind of from their website and from their videos we get the basic gist of it they are what they would call prophecy yeah but it's not prophecy that that it's ever been practiced by the church or it's not the prophecy that we see practice in scripture except in really rare cases like in the Old Testament when God was specifically giving a specific message but when we talk about prophecy we're talking about speaking the words of God mm-hmm what they're doing is saying I don't know how else to say this but it is a form of fortune-telling yeah no it really is if you line up what are the aspects of fortune-telling what are all the aspects of what these people do they would be almost exactly the same the only difference is not the the thing itself but it's where they they're getting their information from right they would say a fortune-teller is getting information from the demonic realm we're getting even more accurate information from from I guess they would say from the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit never has given us permission to tell people's fortunes now if we change the language it's still the same thing yeah if we say I want to I want to give you a massive God encounter I want to tell you something about yourself that proves that God loves you I want to give you some secret information that's impossible for me as a complete stranger to have known otherwise that's really another form of fortune-telling yeah you know your your mother's name was Mary oh that's right my mother's name was Mary how did you know that the Holy Spirit told me that's not the function of the Holy Spirit yeah this is watch and telling or reality there's other words for it but the reality is is that they don't say your mother's name was Mary they say says they say something like there's a member of your family her name begins with an M and yeah man and you know it they they're basically engaging in the same parlor tricks that astrologers and so-called mind-reading magicians engage in you know and I think that there are times when it's nothing more than that and I also think there are times when they're getting accurate messages I used to go to a guy who did this stuff it really messed up my family it messed up my financial situation and he would say things that were uncanny they were exactly like a psychic and he would preface his little deal by saying I'm not a psychic ha ha ha ha ha this is you know this is not what a psychic does or something to that effect and then he would go on and do the very thing that a psychic does but he would be doing it as a Christian yeah it's it's it's what I I don't know how to call it as Christian fortune-telling it's a Christian psychic it's a Christian reading we can real able it but it's the same thing but what if you want to give somebody an encounter with God that's actually the gospel you would sit down with them and you would just talk to them about the gospel message you would show them what scripture says you would it's it's wonderful innocence this is something I want to really clear I really appreciate the fact that these people want to evangelize mm-hmm none of us are against evangelizing we want to see people come to Jesus we want to see people come to church obviously that's something we all agree about so I hope that it doesn't sound like you know what are you doing out there in the marketplace you know what set up a tent at a New Age Fair but please share the actual gospel yeah have an open Bible you know what that would that would maybe be more difficult because you'd have a lot of people that would just ignore you but I'm sorry this idea that we're going to rebrand Christianity so that no one even knows that it's Christianity yeah that's that is that's basically being ashamed of the gospel that's saying we have to cover up Jesus we have to cover up the Gospel message so that people like it enough and then we have to use these kind of sorcery fortune-telling psychic methods in order to get people to like God yeah like there's I think what people end up saying is wow that supernatural thing that I just felt or just had an experience of proves that God is real so now I want to make a decision to to do whatever it is they're telling me to do be you know ask Jesus in my heart I don't know because they never explained it thoroughly no they don't and what's missing is repentance and the forgiveness of sins let me back this up just a little bit listen again we're because we've done this by faith we've been here a year now four days a week we're able to actually give people massive God encounters and spend and now with them they come to us we don't go to them we're we're doing this as you know with Christ alignment and we have we do have a huge team of over 50 people who trained now trained evangelistic evangelism not evangelism prophetic evangelism 50 of them running around the Australian countryside they're trained in prophetic evangelism I have no idea what that is well it's not I know what it is I know that it's it's a new kind of evangelism it's again it's not proclaiming the gospel message and there's a million ways you can proclaim the Gospel message we're not saying that everybody has to you know wear a clerical collar or you know only do it in a certain environment you know this the whole idea of you know these people are too religious that's not what this is about people this is not about people who are too religious please don't call us Pharisees that is intellectually lazy yeah it's it's overblown well plus well throw a link to the Pharisee card it's an ad hominem attack but all right if you're if you're if you're only able to share the encounter gospel then you're not actually sharing the biblical gospel right and these people are not having encounters with the Holy Spirit the Holy Spirit is not promised to give pagans an encounter you know it and if we were to really have an encounter with the Holy Spirit it probably wouldn't go well you know when the Apostle Paul before he was the Apostle Paul when he was Saul of Tarsus he had an encounter with Jesus and it blinded him and knocked him off his horse you know right you know that when the unholy comes in contact with the holy it's not generally a good thing so let's keep let's keep listening to Jen here because I mean this is just jaw-droppingly ignorant she is not talking in any biblical categories and she's clearly a disciple of you know John Wimber and the Bethel Church you know it but let's keep listening to really give people mind-blowing encounters with you yet mind-blowing encounters with Jesus I'm sorry this is this is a mind-blowing encounter with the demonic it's not it or with their own psyche but it's not an encounter with Jesus no where does Jesus say we have the authority to have pagans have encounters with him yeah but we can keep going here the encounters are increasing here at Danny no market we received that on an average ten people a day and those those ten people we had on Tuesday to salvation need to find salvation Jen right you know it doesn't sound like it's a salvation that equals penitent faith in Christ for the forgiveness of sins you know it sounds like something very different easy actually salvation that the aim is to get them into a brand new relationship with God I'm gonna back this up I want you to hear it again listen to what she just said it's not about salvations I don't Tuesday to salvation so the aim is actually salvation but the aim is to get them into a brand new relationship with God because the aim is not salvation so prophetic evangelism is not about salvation it's about well and I think I know what she's trying to say there and that is something that's become really big not just from the NA R but from a lot of kind of deviations from traditional biblical Christianity that is you know when you die whether or not you go to heaven who knows what's the big deal that's not what Jesus was all about Jesus was all about creating disciples on earth who would build the kingdom of God this is that Kingdom now theology or the gospel of the kingdom and then the whole emphasis is now that you've had this God encounter now that you've accepted Jesus now it's your job to go and give people encounters as well and it is a it's all based on what happens on earth now do Christians do good things with their lives on earth absolutely everybody agrees no Christian has ever historically said that Christians should never do anything good while they're on earth they should never share their faith yes that's not what we're saying but the emphasis is almost entirely removed from the issue of our salvation as it pertains to heaven and hell yeah that issue is just set aside as if it doesn't matter right and Christ in him you know crucified and risen from the grave for our sins and for our justification though that's all gone I mean right and there's no it doesn't sound like there's any substantive look at somebody's state as a sinner and their need for a savior in Jesus Christ instead Jesus is basically the ultimate spiritual buzz encounter so much better than the buzz encounters that you can get from the pagan world yeah and this actually goes to my next point on my little article people would believe in God if they could just see some proof for themselves that's the that's the underlying premise yes not that people are sinful and that they are at war with God that's not even something they believe they believe that everybody is like this close to believing in God they just need somebody to show them this new version of God this is new happy God loves you God's God's crazy about you version of Christianity yeah funny that you'd say that Darren Wilson the producer of the Holy Ghost movie and by the way in the in the links in the comment that not in the description section of this YouTube video we'll put links to my critique of the Holy Ghost movie as well as links to my sermon reviews from you know where I reviewed John Wimber power evangelism I think it would be helpful if anyone would further do homework on this but they do a darren wilson does a segment on youtube called questions with god and they have they are talking about preaching love instead of hell and i mean listen to this hot mess i mean this is this shows their complete lack of understanding of what scripture actually teaches but let's let them spin this out first so if jesus is our example though doesn't Jesus preach repentance so don't we then therefore bound to have to preach repentance as well well Jesus actually said that in Luke 24 that repentance and the forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in his name to all nations beginning in Jerusalem it's in Luke 24 so he asked the right question why I mean well Jesus was a preacher of repentance he was and how was the way prepared for Jesus before Jesus arrived on the scene John the Baptist what was his message repent right and and his messages were quite brutal and in people's faces and many people were repentant repenting and being baptized by him and the Apostle Paul preacher of repentance and the forgiveness of sins it's the strangest thing it's not just Jesus it's John the Baptist it's Jesus it's even the prophets of the Old Testament they all were preachers of repentance so here Daren is kind of scratching his head going yeah you know well does that mean we're bound by that you can't can we get around that engaging with somebody because what I said what I film a lot is I don't know if we've ever filmed like you need to repent like there's I don't think anybody has ever said that in any of my movies which is why you picketers outside of myself that is quite the the confession on that we've I've never seen this with none of the movies I do that's all about you know power evangelism and people having encounters with the Holy Spirit and we've never told anyone to repent and you know I I have to say I really I guess I would say I appreciate his honesty because I tell you if this was brought to the attention of Bill Johnson he would say well of course we teach repentance and the forgiveness of sins he would he would use the right phraseology to satisfy his critics good point you to it though he couldn't point well in this sermon here's where I say it they he just says yeah we do that but you can't actually find it but he would at least try to cover his tracks a bit I think that this guy in this group of men are all being honest and saying we don't really understand why anybody would do that well go ahead play some more of it all right listen it's like what we present is Jesus loves you like you're saying but what the the other our other brothers and sisters who were kind of get upset with us will say but you're not giving them the whole picture you're showing that was small you're showing them one part of God's love and you're not showing them the wrath that he has and how much he hates their sin and so you're not and that's why they get angry and frustrated with us because now watch the passage he's gonna go to to kind of you know it's it's unbelievable what he's gonna end up doing because you know he's going to reference the book of Romans chapter two with like without even consideration at all regarding the context and what that passage says in its fuller contact it's live it let me let me spin this out giving them the full debt yeah that that though that version of repentance does not make sense to me no no when I think of repentance it's like the joy of my salvation mm-hmm yeah let's see what I think of it is what repentance means to me is yeah repentance I don't think of man I am so horrible I could never ever do anything to please god oh god what a wretched person that I am that doesn't that does not bring any kind of help to me personally I this guy has no concept of his own sin let's listen a little more you have so much of that in today's society like you are not enough you are not enough you are not an and that kind of repentance I think gets no one anywhere that's more penance than repentance he doesn't even have a proper definition of anything at all at this point he's just showing his complete ignorance here well and they they would actually frown upon proper definitions because they don't I don't really think they believe that such things exist that everything is constantly changing and morphing and everything's based on your experience so if they have decided based on their experience that repentance means something other than what the Bible clearly teaches you they're okay with that yeah yeah this is this is a smokescreen let's keep listening just a little bit more you know in so you know for me to sit here and hit my back over and over with a whip and say I am not good enough I'll never measure this guy was about to go to Romans 2:4 why don't ya - because this is the cut what leads to repentance says the kindness of God leads to repentance Peter in Luke 5 yeah it is God's kindness that leads to repentance he was quoting Romans let's take a look at Romans by the way because I think this will help us out a little bit here Romans chapter 1 in Chapter 1 Paul begins an extended argument that finds its resolution in chapter 3 or at least it can inclusion mini conclusion in part and here's what he says Romans 1:16 for I am not ashamed of the gospel it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes to the Jew first then also to the Greek for in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith as is written the righteous shall live by faith and now begins the foundation work for the wrath of God Romans 1:18 the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth for what can be known about God is plain to them because he's shown it to them and he goes on to talk about how they they reject God and God turns them over to their dishonorable passions and it says here's what it says 1:24 therefore God gave them up to the lusts of their hearts to impurity dishonouring of their bodies among themselves because they exchanged the truth of God for a lie worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator who is blessed forever for this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions their women exchanged natural relations with those that are contrary to nature and men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another men committing shameful shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error and since they did not see fit to acknowledge God God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done they were filled with all manner of unrighteousness evil covetousness malice they are full of envy murder strife deceit maliciousness they are gossips slanderers haters of god insolent haughty boastful inventors of evil disobedient to parents foolish faithless heartless ruthless though they know that god's righteous decree to those who practice such things they deserve to die they do not only do them but they give approval to those who practice them and then you kind of get that that's like the foundation of his argument and he then goes on to say to the Jews that are Christians you have no excuse every one of you who judge because you do the same things and then he says it is God's kindness and forbearance and patience that leads us to repentance but this then requires a proper distinction of law and gospel Paul then concludes his argument in Romans chapter 3 starting at verse 9 he says what then are we Jews any better off he says no not at all we've already charged that all everybody both jews and greeks they're under sin as it is written none is righteous no not one no one understands no one seeks for God all have turned aside together they have become worthless no one does good not even one their throat is an open grave they use their tongues to deceive the venom of ASPs is under their lips their mouth is full of curses and bitterness their feet are Swift to shed blood and in their paths are ruin and misery in the way of peace they have not known there is no fear of God before their eyes you're gonna note that Romans 2 is an extension of Romans 1 it's concluding here in Romans 3 and it paints this horrible picture of humanity as sinful and incapable of saving themselves and that's kind of the whole point of God's law now it says then so we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law and here's the reason why God gave the law so that every mouth may be stopped and the whole world may be held accountable to God for by works of the law no human being will be justified big Greek word there Ducato means to be declared righteous in God's sight since through the law comes the knowledge of sin but now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law although the law and the prophets they bear witness to it the righteousness of God that is through faith and Jesus Christ for all who believe for there is no distinction all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and are justified by His grace as a gift through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus whom God put forward as a propitiation you could say atoning sacrifice by his blood to be received by faith this was the show God's righteousness because in his forbearance he had passed over the former sins it was to show his righteousness at the present time so that he might be just and the justifier the one who has faith in Jesus yes he indeed truly it is God's kindness that leads us to repentance it's the kindness of God in the forgiveness of sin in Jesus Christ the Gospel message is that Christ died for our sins Romans chapter one two and three all work together as a unit to show us that we have fallen short there's nothing we can do we are unrighteous unrighteousness and the kindness that leads us to repentance is the good news that Jesus died for our sins this is what the Apostles preached this moment you know that this is the message that Christianity expanded on and the people there at Bethel in the NA are and that are into this encounter evangelism they are utterly clueless and they're not proclaiming repentance and the forgiveness of sins in other words they're not making Christians you know if I know if I'm a sound so harsh to say that but I don't know what else to say because they're there they're not just giving a slightly different angle of the same thing hmm they're taking the very core of what it means to be a Christian and removing it yep I heard that verse used by the pastor at the church here that I had an issue with before I left and it caused me to do all this research because he used that same verse it's the kindness of God that leads to repentance and they take that to mean that when we go and we personally give somebody a prophetic word or we tell them their future or we get their uh their a 'king back to feel better whatever it is we do for them that kindness is what causes people to say wow well I guess I want to be a Christian after all because and now that I know God is so nice and he wants to help me out and yeah God wants to do nice stuff for me that's really what it is God wants to give you nice things he wants to make you feel better about stuff he wants you to know your identity what does that mean you just don't know how good you are I mean listen to Todd white when he's talking to people he's constantly telling people hey dude hey brother you're awesome God wants you to know you're amazing yeah well I could do that if I wanted to make friends with everybody on earth it's he's a really nice guy he comes across as incredibly warm and incredibly genuine but he never gives people like like he was just saying in that video he's not giving him the whole picture at all he's he's leaving out the very core now we can we can start an interaction with people by being warm and friendly and and maybe complimenting them on something that's fine we're not saying that you got to be mean to people you know that's that's not the issue the issue is if you're gonna proclaim the gospel you have to actually proclaim the gospel right have to proclaim what the Bible describes as the actual gospel message right yeah and if you in the Holy Ghost movie Todd White's in it and I mean he was at a corn concert and and you know he prior to the concert he's out work in the crowd while they're in the you know waiting in the you know to get into the venue and he literally is demonstrating how this encounter evangelism works where he you know he he takes a guy and says you know let me take a look at your legs and one legs longer than the other and watch this and he's gonna miraculously lengthen one leg and how do you feel and the guys all I feel better and see the idea then is is that now to see you've had an encounter with Jesus you've seen the miraculous do you want to make a decision to have a personal relationship with Jesus that's not evangelism and that's not the quote kindness that leads us to repentance the kindness that leads us to repentance according to Scripture is the good news that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself because God made Jesus to be sin who knew no sin or as Isaiah said God has laid on him the iniquity of us all he's the propitiation for our sins that do you see they think that somehow lengthening somebody's leg and and you're giving them a God encounter using destiny cards and stuff like that and helping them to bliss out and have some carpet time you know with the Holy Spirit is somehow the kindness that's going to lead them to repentance this is delusional and what's missing is a proclamation of repentance and the forgiveness of sins which Jesus said would be how evangelism takes place and this is the gospel of Luke's version of the Great Commission found in Luke 24 now it concerns me so much not because I have this thing like I want everyone to go to my kind of church and it bothers me that other kind of churches are growing I'm I it bothers me because these are people who have a temporary experience that they are absolutely convinced is the true Christian message and it doesn't last yeah the because these people have based all of their faith on a experience which may have been genuine or it may have been psychosomatic but whatever the case that is not what you build your faith on faith number one is a gift you get from God anyway yep and it's based on God's Word the Holy Spirit uses God's Word to explain the Gospel message and if it's not built on that it's going to eventually trickle and fade away now maybe some of these people who make this kind of sort of acceptance of Jesus thing they actually by almost by God's grace in spite of everything they wind up going to a Bible based Church and then they actually do hear the Gospel message and I know that sort of thing does happen so if you're listening to this message and you're like hey I know the gospel message I'm going ok fine we get it I'm not talking to you I'm talking to the people who really all this stuff we're saying is kind of new in in peculiar and that you haven't heard this message before it's because you haven't been taught the true gospel message and I I do believe that God works in people's lives in spite of bad teaching that happens all the time but that doesn't mean that we should just ignore bad teaching because bad teaching also does a great deal of harm and I I've said this before on your show Chris how my own kids and most of their friends have left the faith after going to a million youth group meetings with emotional encounters with God where the worship team was really going crazy and people were speaking in tongues and prophetic words were being uttered and people were literally hearing things that were supernatural they saw supernatural things they heard supernatural prophetic words and they rejected the faith they actually think it's a joke they call it they look at it like the Jesus camp movie it was scary it was weird these people that in some many cases these are kids talking about their own parents they're saying I'm embarrassed by what I went through I'm embarrassed by what my parents still believe it's not working this thing's been going on like you said since John Wimber you know they've been proclaiming that we're just taking over the world this is the greatest thing ever and it's actually more of a movement that has little blips of growth but what they don't show you is that the tail end of that blip is a lot of people falling away but it keeps moving forward and finding new people and those people eventually move away but that's ok because we keep moving forward and finding other new people but they're not really being disciplined in biblical truth they're not finding good church homes in many cases so that's our that's our concern here yeah yeah I've seen it firsthand you've seen it firsthand we get emails all the time from people that you know they're saying man I was trapped in this thing for 20 years thank you so much for telling me the truth yeah and it's trapped in in bondage I mean it's absolute darkness and confusion and I'm just gonna be blunt if if you had a destiny card reading and and had a blissful encounter with God and as a result of it decided you know hey I need to invite Jesus into my heart and you haven't heard anything about your need to repent Christ and him crucified for your sins repentance and the forgiveness you're not a Christian I'm sorry but you making a decision to have a better encounter and have a personal relationship with the spirit or thingy that you've had an encounter with you're not a Christian I'm sorry you are a false convert and there's nothing that you can point me to that would make me believe you're a Christian you are utterly ignorant of the gospel itself in fact you're probably bristling at this idea well I'm a sinner yeah and yeah yeah you are and you need to repent and the only solution is a crucified and risen Savior and and you saying that Chris is not you being a mean person no that's the thing that this this dichotomy again a false dichotomy between two false choices one is the nice loving people over here who represent Jesus in a loving kind way they're not judgmental they just love you where you're at and then the mean people over here who are gonna force you to admit that you're a sinner so that you can you know do it the biblical way they're gonna they're gonna you know focus on your sin you want to know something if you don't actually repent of your sin and you go along with this na AR style encounter gospel it's gonna get worse it's not going to get better and here's it's gonna get worse because what you're gonna hear is a bunch of law based preaching from here on in your because you never heard the Gospel message you're told how wonderful you are and now most of the messages are all about the stuff that you have to do and you got to do more and more and more and more and you know frankly Jesus's might be a little disappointed if you're not doing as much as Todd white or some of these other guys right you've got to have the baptism of the Holy Spirit you got to start speaking in tongues you need to learn how to hear God's voice so that he can reveal to you your specific unique dream destiny thingy you need to learn how to ignore the haters who are warning you that this is not from God and a whole laundry list of things that you're now supposed to be doing and it changes every five years because they cut they kind of you know reinvent themselves and come up with new emphasises and new catchphrases yeah you know like this encounter thing is is fairly new though the specific phrasing of giving people an encounter with God has been popularized mostly by Bill Johnson I don't know if he invented it but that's what he talks about all the time we Opie poland' encounter with God and if you're a real Christian who's grew up in a Christian home or you you have a normal biblical Christian experience when you hear that you might give him the benefit of the doubt and you might think what he's saying is we need to give people a good biblical understanding of what the gospel message is but he's not saying that folks we've listened to hours and hours and hours we've read his stuff he's not teaching that no and I tell you what in fact I did this podcast when I first started trying to do podcasting it wasn't my best one but the interview itself was great I talked to bart mccurdy who lives in Bethel I mean in Redding and his family was a part of the original Bethel Church before it was taken over and he has a ministry as a lay person to preach the gospel to Bethel people and one of the stories that he told me was about a young man who I don't think he had a family yet but he was married if I remember the story whatever the case he and his wife maybe his kids I don't remember they moved from someplace in a far away they he quit his job they found some kind of work in Redding because they wanted to be part of the Bethel Church thing because Bethel tells you every time they talk about themselves that we have miracles every day this is the church where the MARAC Kilis is everyday normal Christianity and so people are going wow my church isn't like that my church just preaches Bible messages and stuff well I want to go there so people are literally pulling up stakes and moving to this town and he this one man was ready to completely abandon his Christian faith because after a year and a half of being at Bethel he said I have not seen one actual miracle not in the net the past week and a half the past year and a half yep and Bart actually shared the Gospel message to him this simple gospel message like we've been saying and and the guy was brought back to his faith maybe he never had faith to begin with that's another issue but the reality is that people who are hearing this message only are not getting the real gospel message and maybe they're saved because of something that came later that helped them but in general this is not what it means to be a Christian and that's always been the case doesn't matter what denomination you're talking about we're talking about a really core issue here yeah anyway I went on a tangent there like I often do in fact that podcast was terrible because I talked more than Bart talked here I'm interviewing him and I kept because I get so worked up about this stuff yeah I have a hard time not being you know animated and passionate and it's not because I'm personally angry at people it really isn't I mean I guess I could say I'm angry at this bad teaching and I'm angry that that frankly bill Johnson is a multi-millionaire folks he is a multi-millionaire he won't disclose his income but the last time it was disclosed was I believe in 2008 and he was even back then when the church was much smaller was getting over $400,000 a year in salary and that wasn't including book sales and speaking fees I'm doing the wrong thing I mean yes Todd white john white i did the did the article about his i know how to find the form 990 it's really easy anybody this is public information for ministries not churches but ministries so lifestyle Christianity paid Todd white over $600,000 in I think it was either 2030 was 2014 how much money is he making today probably allowed more because he's a lot more famous now than he was just two years ago so these people are getting rich they are yeah their tea tastes are shameful gain things that they ought not to teach the thing is they're not making Christians and they're confusing people who are and they're effectively you know these these are weeds that are cutting up you cutting off and choking off wheat so that it's not being able to bear fruit I mean what these people are doing is you know this is a counterfeit Christianity with counterfeit miracles counterfeit signs counterfeit wonders a counterfeit holy spirit and they're not the in fact they openly talk about the fact that what this isn't about repentance and salvation is about you know God you're just the bee's knees to God and he's just oh you you're the apple of his eye man and you know let me lengthen your leg and prove it to you you know it's and here you could have a destiny reading here we can't talk about the future because that would be fortune-telling but you know let me give you and you can have an encounter with the Holy Spirit right here that's this is demonic I mean the you know and they and they do talk about their cards being predictive and having high predictive accuracy well okay what are you predicting the past anybody can do that they have to be predicting the future yeah yeah so yeah and there are articles about how Christ alignment actually went on to their website can frantically change some of the language they took out the word tarot cards yeah but please just just do a side-by-side comparison what does a tarot card reader do what does Christ alignment do right it doesn't matter if they're using tarot cards or destiny cards it's still fortune-telling you know it right you know it's it's unbelievable so well Steve thank you for your time - you know come on and kind of unload you know these things that you were how's your anxiety levels and crankiness levels now that you've been having you know what we're gonna finish this in the rest of the day I'm gonna think about all the stuff I wish I would have said because I could go on and I know I know and I've done my homework I'm not talking about you know I saw this one video there's one time with this one-minute quote I've done hours and hours and now hundreds of hours of research I've read I've studied I'm not talking about something based on an angry vendetta against one person yeah I'm talking about a whole theological framework is patently false patently unbiblical and it's hurting people and if you want to go ahead and believe it I can't stop you that's you know there are people who are gonna hear us and think we're cranky old whatever and that's fine we're trying to speak to the people who have this maybe in the back of their mind they're saying I don't know if something seems wrong whenever I hear these guys quote the Bible they only use one verse and then they go on and on about what God told them and about this prophecy they heard from brother so-and-so three years ago they're always going off into this mystical breadcrumb trail of evidence to back up what they say well let's yeah it's do you let's do this let's say let's issue the God encounter challenge okay and here's how the challenge works okay those of you who believe that Christians can lead pagans into encounters with God so that they can make decisions for Jesus this is real simple give us in context an example of this from the New Testament just show us the text where one of the disciples or apostles led a pagan into an encounter with God which led to them making a decision to ask Jesus into their heart that's that we'll call it the God encounter challenge the challenge has been issued show us the texts and if you can show us where Christians have the ability to lead people into God encounters who aren't believers then we'll repent and Kosar and I will film ourselves having some appropriate carpet time with as we bliss out and have God encounters ourselves well in another challenge would be can you find the concept in scripture where repentance has absolutely nothing to do with the forgiveness of sins yeah because that's another claim that they're making if they used the word repentance they've changed the meaning entirely in fact bill johnson wrote in a one of his books you know that I was maybe was a sermon it's in the Bill Johnson cornucopia he said that we means to do again and pent I kid you not is a penthouse a penthouse at the very top of the building I'm calling a flag on the play here Kozar I've got to see that I no way I'm not accepting it until I see it is a real quote okay you got a let's put a link to that yeah you yeah it's so we're gonna put that over how do they do it in the corporate we're gonna put that at this concept of yours we're gonna put it over in the parking lot right now Steve and until you are in the parking lot until you can provide a document I want firt you know like primary source material where he said that cuz the Greek word is Metanoia which is a change of mine hold on all right I've done all right hang on I'm holding I just had it up the other day there's a website called crosswise and the guy's done some really in-depth writing about the actual meaning of the Greek in Hebrew and there's an article called kenosis Christology and bill johnson part 1 which is way back in 2011 aha and this is the article where he quotes Bill Johnson as saying that re and pant means to go up to the glory of God or go back up go back up to the penthouse are you kidding me no and and I I told this to the pastors at this ner church which the senior pastor was a big Bill Johnson fan he was actually preaching Bill Johnson style messages from the pulpit and I said you got to stop this and I gave him this example and he didn't care it was so you know it was like it was like a satire piece the fact that Bill Johnson said this so I think this is the article if not it's one of this another article from the same guy it's their really long in-depth articles so I I don't know if I can find it right this second all right well we'll put it up we'll put it down in the description if you know it you know I'll say yo Kosar was telling the truth here's the link is what how I'll flag it so anyway but Steve thank thank you for your time and yeah let me encourage people you know if you've ever been pressured to ask Jesus into your heart because of a god encounter that somebody was trying to pressure you into having go ahead and hit the subscribe button below and a reminder that fighting for the faith the messed up church pirate Christian this is all supported by the people that we serve if you don't already support us you can do so by clicking on the join our crew link below or you can support us on patreon information is all there but to make sure to hit the subscribe button so that you can be made aware of future episodes and content that we make available as we try to get the word out regarding false teachers and people who are masquerading as sheep who are really wolves in sheep's clothing and and again you know we remember the challenge here show us in scripture where Christians have the ability and authority to lead somebody into a God encounter which will then cause them to want to make a decision for Jesus I want to see those passages in context I'm a hundred percent positive nobody nowhere is gonna be able to put provide that for us but thank you again Stephen for your time those of you watching online thank you for your time as well thanks everybody

Channel: Fighting for the Faith

Views: 29,728

Rating: 4.9247313 out of 5

Keywords: ChristAlignment, Bethel, Power Evangelism, John Wimber, Bill Johnson, Encounter Evangelism

Id: WfuEo9h96lM

Length: 63min 10sec (3790 seconds)

Published: Wed Jan 10 2018