♪♪ ♪♪ >>> THIS SUNDAY, THE SPECIAL COUNSEL ELECTION. IT'S NOT JUST DONALD TRUMP'S CAMPAIGN THAT MAY GO TO THE COURTROOM. ATTORNEY GENERAL MERRICK GARLAND APPOINTS A SPECIAL COUNSEL TO INVESTIGATE PRESIDENT BIDEN'S SON. >> I HAVE CONCLUDED THAT IT IS IN THE PUBLIC INTEREST TO APPOINT HIM AS SPECIAL COUNSEL. >> WHILE FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE ASKED REPUBLICAN PRIMARY VOTERS TO SHIFT THEIR SUPPORT AWAY FROM HIS FORMER BOSS. >> THERE'S ALMOST NO IDEA MORE UN-AMERICAN THAN THE NOTION THAT ANY ONE PERSON COULD PICK THE AMERICAN PRESIDENT. >> HOW MUCH WILL MIKE PENCE MAKE JANUARY 6th CENTRAL TO HIS CAMPAIGN AGAINST HIS FORMER RUNNING MATE. I'LL ASK HIM THIS MORNING. >> PLUS CHALLENGING BIDEN, THE NEW SPECIAL COUNSEL APPOINTMENT FUELS MORE CRITICISM FROM REPUBLICANS. >> IF HE WERE A REPUBLICAN HE WOULD HAVE BEEN IN JAIL A LONG TIME AGO. >> BIDEN IS ALSO FACING CRITICS FROM WITHIN HIS OWN PARTY ON HIS CAPACITY TO SERVE. I'LL TALK TO DEMOCRATIC CONGRESSMAN DEAN PHILIPS OF MINNESOTA WHO IS ACTIVELY CALLING FOR MORE PRIMARY CHALLENGER TO BIDEN. >> AND RED ALERT. >> THAT VOTE IN OHIO IS PRETTY SOBERING. >> OHIOET VOERS DELIVER A VICTORY TO SUPPORTERS OF ABORTION RIGHTS AND OFFER ANOTHER WARNING SIGN FOR REPUBLICANS. >> IF REPUBLICANS ARE JUST FOCUSED ON ONE ISSUE THEY'LL HAVE A BIT OF A CHALLENGE. >> SUPPORT FOR LEGAL ACTION FOR ABORTION IS WINNING INSIDE RED AND BLUE STATES FROM KANSAS TO KENTUCKY TO MICHIGAN. WILL IT BE A MOTIVATING FACTOR FOR VOTERS IN 2024. JOINING ME FOR INSIGHT AND ANALYSIS ARE. POLITICO MRIBACK CO-AUTHOR EUGENE DANIELS. REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST BRANDON BUCK. IS IMOEN SANDERS-TOWNSEND, FORMER SPOKESPERSON FOR KAMALA HARRIS AND BETRY WOODRUFF SWANN. WELCOME TO SUNDAY, IT'S "MEET THE PRESS." >> FROM NBC NEWS IN WASHINGTON THE LONGEST RUNNING SHOW IN TELEVISION HISTORY, THIS IS "MEET THE PRESS" WITH CHUCK TODD. >>> GOOD SUNDAY MORNING. IN CASE YOU NEEDED ANOTHER SIGN THAT THE 2024 CAMPAIGN WILL BE SHAPED BY LEGAL DRAMAS IN COURTROOMS IN WASHINGTON, DELAWARE, MIAMI, NEW YORK AND ATLANTA, RATHER THAN DOOR TO DOOR IN THE STATE OF IOWA, WE GOT A REMINDER AGAIN ON FRIDAY. ATTORNEY GENERAL MERRICK GARLAND ANNOUNCED THAT TRUMP APPOINTEE DAVID WEISS WHO HAS BEEN INVESTIGATED HUNTER BIDEN HAS NOW REQUESTED SPECIAL COUNSEL STATUS AND HE'S GOING TO GET IT. AFTER A PLEA DEAL COLLAPSED IN COURT A FEW WEEKS AGO WHEN A FEDERAL JUDGE BALKED AT GRANTING HUNTER BIDEN EXPANSIVE IMMUNITY. >> THE APPOINTMENT OF MR. WEISS REENFORCES FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE THE DEPARTMENT'S COMMITMENT TO BOTH INDEPENDENCE AND ACCOUNTABILITY IN PARTICULARLY SENSITIVE MATTERS. >> NOW PRESIDENT BIDEN'S SON COULD FACE A TRIAL AT A TIME WHEN DEMOCRATS WERE HOPING TO KEEP THE CAMPAIGNS FOCUSED ON DONALD TRUMP'S LEGAL PROBLEMS. NOW THE TWO CASES ARE HARDLY COMPARABLE. DONALD TRUMP IS NOW UNDER FEDERAL INDICTMENT FOR ATTEMPTING TO OVERTURN THE 2020 ELECTION AND FOR MISHANDLING CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS THAT INCLUDED THE U.S. PLAN OF ATTACK ON IRAN. PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS NOT BEEN CHARGED WITH ANY WRONGDOING AND HUNTER BIDEN'S ALLEGED CRIMES OF TWO YEARS OF NOT PAYING TAXES WHICH HIS ATTORNEYS SAY HE HAS SINCE PAID AND LYING ABOUT HIS DRUG USE AT THE TIME OF A GUN PURCHASE AND HUNTER BIDEN IS NOT A CANDIDATE FOR PRESIDENT, BUT PRDZ'S HANDLING OF THE CASE HAS RAISED QUESTIONS AT A TIME WHEN VOTERS HAVE DOUBTS ABOUT HIS AGE AND POLITICAL STANDING. BIDEN BROUGHT HIS SON TO A STATE DINNER JUST TWO DAYS AFTER THE PLEA DEAL THAT HAS SINCE COLLAPSED WAS ANNOUNCED, AND HE HAS REPEATEDLY DEFENDED HIM, DENYING WRONGDOING ALTOGETHER EVEN THOUGH HUNTER BIDEN HIMSELF HAS PLED GUILTY. >> ARE YOU CONFIDENT --? I'M CONFIDENT. >> MY SON'S DONE NOTHING WRONG. I TRUST HIM. I HAVE FAITH IN HIM. >> I'M VERY PROUD OF MY SON. >> DID YOU ENCOURAGE HIM -- >> IN TOTAL, THERE ARE NO THREE SPECIAL COUNSELS ACTIVELY AT WORK INVOLVED IN THIS PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN. JACK SMITH NAMED IN NOVEMBER TO OVERSEE THE ONGOING CRIMINAL INVESTIGATIONS INTO TRUMP'S HANDLING TO CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS AND HIS ATTEMPTS TO EVERTURN THE 2020 ELECTION. ROBERT HERR WAS NAMED TO INVESTIGATE THECá$ CLASSIFIED DOCUMENTS AT PRESIDENT BIDEN'S FORMER OFFICE AND HIS HOME AND NOW, OF COURSE, DAVID WEISS. THE DECISION TO DELAY THE APPOINTMENT OF WEISS AS SPECIAL COUNSEL IS ALSO A BIT HARD TO UNDERSTAND. EVEN THE LANGUAGE GARLAND USED FRIDAY EMPHASIZING INDEPENDENCE, ACCOUNTABILITY IN PARTICULARLY SENSITIVE MATTERS ARE ALMOST THE EXACT SAME PHRASES THAT HE USED WHEN APPOINTING JACK SMITH NINE MONTHS AGO TO OVERSEE THE TRUMP CASES. TRUMP'S LAWYERS WERE ACTUALLY IN COURT ON FRIDAY HASHING OUT THE DETAILS OF WHAT HE HAS ALLOWED TO SAY PUBLICLY ABOUT THE JANUARY 6th CASE IN AN EFFORT TO PROTECT WITNESSES AND THE SENSITIVE DOCUMENTS HE'S ABOUT TO RECEIVE FROM THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT IN DISCOVERY, AND PROSECUTORS IN GEORGIA, WHERE TRUMP IS LIKELY TO BE INDICTED A FOURTH TIME IN THE LAST YEAR, HAVE INDICATED THEY PLAN TO PRESENT THEIR CASE TO A GRAND JURY LATER THIS WEEK. STILL, DONALD TRUMP'S RIVALS ARE GOING THROUGH THE MOTIONS OF A TRADITIONAL POLITICAL CAMPAIGN EVEN AS HE LEADS NATIONALLY BIDEN MORE THAN 30 POINTS AND THE LEGAL DRAM AS ON THE SIDE AND THEY'RE TRYING TO CATCH TRUMP WHERE HE HAS A DOMINANT LEAD SIX TIMES SINCE VISITING IN NOVEMBER. THEY POSED WITH FOOD ON A STICK AT THE IOWA STATE FAIR AND DESPITE GOING THROUGH THE MOEGDS OF CAMPAIGNING AGAINST HIM, TRUMP RIVALS HAVE PASSED UP NEWSIOUS OPPORTUNITIES TO 78 FELONY COUNTS, BUT THEY JUMPED ON THE CHANCE TO COMMENT ON HUNTER BIDEN. >> IT JUST SEEMS TO ME THAT THEY'LL GIVE HIM SOME WAY TO GIVE HIM SOME SOFT GLOVE TREATMENT AND I DON'T KNOW WHY YOU WOULD APPOINT THIS GUY TO SPECIAL COUNSEL. >> WHY DID IT TAKE TWO YEARS? WHY DID THIS COME UP WITH THE PAY TO PLAY? I DON'T TRUST IT. THE AMERICAN PEOPLE DON'T TRUST THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE. >> JOINING ME NOW TO UNPACK IS FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY CHUCK ROSENBERG WHO IS AN NBC NEWS LEGAL ANALYST. CHUCK, YOU'RE GOING TO BE A REGULAR HERE ON THE SHOW AT THIS POINT. WE MAY HAVE TO CALL YOU A CO-HOST. EXPLAIN THIS TO ME. WHY NOW, DID THE ATTORNEY GENERAL CHOOSE TO MAKE DAVID WEISS A SPECIAL COUNSEL, AND THEN AGAIN I GO BACK. THE SAME RATIONALE HE USED FOR DONALD TRUMP'S SPECIAL COUNSEL, CLEARLY APPLIES TO HEAR. >> AND BY THE WAY, MR. GARLAND HAD DESCRIBED DAVID WEISS'S RUNNING ROOM AS SORT OF MREN ARY, RIGHT? HE HAD HIS OWN PLAN TO MAKE HIS OWN DECISIONS IN THE CASE, SO WHY GIVE HIM THIS EXTRA TITLE. IT SEEMS SOMEWHAT COSMETIC TO ME, CHUCK. >> SO ARE THERE ADDITIONAL TOOLS THAT HE HAS NOW THAT HE DIDN'T HAVE BEFORE? WHAT ARE THOSE TOOLS? >> AT THE EDGES, YES. IT MEANS HE CAN BRING CHARGES AND OTHER DISTRICTS ON HIS OWN SIGNATURE, BUT FRANKLY, HE COULD HAVE DONE THAT IF HE NEEDED TO PREVIOUSLY, SO AGAIN, I THINK THE RIGHT WORD HERE IS COSMETIC. IT DOESN'T REALLY CHANGE THE TILT OF THE EARTH. >> SO, AND WHAT'S -- SO THEN THE MOTIVATION HERE FOR THE ATTORNEY GENERAL IS SIMPLY TO -- IS HE WORRIED THAT THE CASES AGAINST TRUMP WERE GOING TO LOOK BIASSED IF HE DIDN'T DO THIS? >> THERE SEEMED TO BE A DRUMBEAT TO APPOINT A SPECIAL COUNSEL TO INVESTIGATE AT LEAST HUNTER BIDEN, IF NOT THE BIDEN FAMILY. MR. WEISS, THE SPECIAL COUNSEL NOW HAS THE AUTHORITY TO TAKE THE INVESTIGATION WHERE EVERYTHING OUGHT TO GO. THERE'S A PROBLEM, I THINK, GENERALLY WITH THE SPECIAL COUNSEL REGULATIONS, AND THERE'S ANOTHER PROBLEM THAT WORRIES ME EVEN MORE. IT'S THIS. I DON'T THINK MR. BIDEN OR MR. TRUMP, FOR THAT MATTER, SHOULD BE TREATED ANY BETTER OR ANY WORSE THAN ANY OTHER PERSON UNDER INVESTIGATION. THEY BOTH DESERVED TO BE TREATED FAIRLY, WHATEVER YOU THINK OF THEM, THEY DESERVE TO BE TREATED FAIRLY. SPECIAL COUNSELS BRING INTENSE FOCUS ONE OR TWO PEOPLE AND THAT CAN BE CORROSIVE. >> IT'S ALMOST UNFAIR. THEY'RE NOT GETTING TREATED THE WAY OTHER WOULD BE TREATED BY THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT. >> RIGHT, AND SO THAT WORRIES ME, AND TO APPOINT A SPECIAL COUNSEL, AN ATTORNEY GENERAL HAS TO FIND EXTRAORDINARY CIRCUMSTANCES. >> HE KEEPS FINDING EXTRAORDINARY CIRCUMSTANCES, QUITE A FEW. >> WHICH IS RATHER ORDINARY. WE'VE HAD FIVE SPECIAL COUNTS ELSE IN THE LAST SIX YEARS AND I DON'T MEAN THAT IN ANY WAY AGAINST THOSE INDIVIDUALS. THEY'RE PRINCIPLED PEOPLE AND DOING THE JOBS THEY WERE ASKED TO DO. RATHER, I WORRY INSTITUTIONALLY WHETHER HAVING SO MANY SPECIAL COUNSEL UNDER SO MANY, QUOTE, UNQUOTE SETS OF EXTRAORDINARY CIRCUMSTANCES CORRODES THE DEPARTMENT. >> IT SEEMS TO UNDERMINE THE RATIONALE PUTTING A FORMER FEDERAL JUDGE AND HE IS ESSENTIALLY CONCEDING HE IS PERCEIVED TO BE TOO BIAS TO OVERSEE THESE CASES. I KNOW THAT'S WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE, AND I KNOW THAT'S NOT WHAT HE'S SAYING. >> THAT'S AN IMPORTANT POINT AND IT GOES TO A LARGER ISSUE. THE DESIGN OF THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, CHUCK. THE DESIGN IS THAT IT BE, AND THE POLITICAL LAYER IS EXTRAORDINARILY THIN. THE FBI HAS MEN AND WOMEN AND ONE IS A POLITICAL APPOINTEE. EVERY ONE IN THE COUNTRY HAS AT ONE, AT MOST, ONE POLITICAL APPOINTEE. >> VERY QUICKLY, DONALD TRUMP'S ATTORNEYS ARGUING FOR WHAT HE CAN AND CAN'T SAY. THE JUDGE -- EVERYBODY'S BEEN WONDERING WHAT IS THE STICK? HOW IS SHE GOING TO TRY TO ENFORCE ANY PENALTY MOVING UP THE TRIAL DATE SEEMED TO BE AN INTERESTING STICK THAT SHE CHOSE TO USE. DO YOU THINK THAT'S EFFECTIVE ENCOURAGEMENT? >> YOU MIGHT BE ABLE TO SAY THE SHORTER THE PERIOD BETWEEN NOW AND THE TRIAL DATE THE LESS DAMAGE. HE HAS THE RIGHT TO CAMPAIGN AND HE HAS FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS. ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU CAN'T INTERFERE WITH THE FAIR ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE AND TAMPER WITH WITNESSES. SO SHE'LL HAVE TO WATCH IT VERY CLOSELY, BUT IT'S NOT AN EASY THING FOR HER TO DO. >> ALL RIGHT. CHUCK ROSENBERG GETTING US STARTED THIS MORNING AGAIN. IN THE COURTROOMS INSTEAD OF THE PRIMARY TRAIL. THANK YOU, SIR. JOINING ME NOW IS FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE. MR. VICE PRESIDENT, WELCOME BACK TO "MEET THE PRESS." >> THANK YOU, CHUCK. >> LET ME START WITH THE ATTORNEY GENERAL'S DECISION WHO WAS AN APPOINTEE OF THE TRUMP-PENCE ADMINISTRATION, HIS DECISION TO MACH HIM A SPECIAL COUNSEL IN THE HUNTER BIDEN PROBE. DO YOU APPROVE OF THAT DECISION? >> WELL, FIRST, LET ME SAY, CHUCK, I'M RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT BECAUSE I THINK THIS COUNTRY IS IN A LOT OF TROUBLE. I THINK JOE BIDEN HAS WEAKENED AMERICA AT HOME AND ABROAD, BUT FRANKLY, THE PATTERN OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT DURING OUR FOUR YEARS IN THE WHITE HOUSE AND SINCE HAS UNDERMINED PUBLIC CONFIDENCE AND EQUAL TREATMENT UNDER THE LAW, AND WHILE I WELCOME THE APPOINTMENT OF A SPECIAL COUNSEL WHICH IS, OF COURSE, APPROPRIATE AND IS A MINIMUM WHERE THE ATTORNEY GENERAL HAS THE POTENTIAL CONFLICT OF INTEREST, I'M ALSO COMFORTED BY THE FACT THAT CONGRESS IS GOING TO CONTINUE TO DO ITS WORK. I'M CONFIDENT THAT HOUSE REPUBLICANS WILL CONTINUE TO BRING FORWARD THE FACTS IN THIS CASE. THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW WHETHER OR NOT PRESIDENT BIDEN'S FAMILY BENEFITED OR THAT HE HIMSELF BENEFITED WHEN HE WAS SERVING IN THE JOB THAT I HAD AS VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES IN A FINANCIAL WAY FROM FOREIGN NATIONALS. THESE ARE FACTS THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HAVE A RIGHT TO GET TO THE BOTTOM OF. I AM HOPEFUL THAT SPECIAL COUNSEL WEISS WILL DO HIS JOB WITHOUT FEAR OR FAVOR, BUT I HAVE CONFIDENCE THAT JIM JORDAN, CONGRESSMAN COMER AND OTHERS WILL CONTINUE TO DO THEIR JOB FOR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE? LOOK, I COULDN'T HELP, BUT NOTICE THAT YOU SAID THAT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT IN THE FOUR YEARS THAT YOU GUYS OVERSAW IT YOU THOUGHT ALSO DIDN'T SEEM TO CONDUCT INVESTIGATIONS FAIRLY. >> RIGHT. >> WHY DO YOU THINK THIS IS? HOW IS IT THAT THIS IS A BIPARTISAN PROBLEM THAT YOU'RE IDENTIFYING? >> WELL, LOOK, I MEAN, IT STARTED IN 2016 WHEN JAMES COMER GAVE HILLARY CLINTON A PASS, RIGHT, THAT NO OTHER AMERICAN WOULD HAVE GOTTEN, BUT THEN, YOU KNOW, WHAT WE FOUND OUT SINCE IS THE TRUTH ABOUT WHAT WAS GOING ON DURING THE MUELLER INVESTIGATION. I LIVED THROUGH THAT FOR TWO AND A HALF YEARS WHEN WE WERE BUSY REBUILDING OUR MILITARY, CUTTING TAXES, UNLEASHING AMERICAN ENERGY, SECURING OUR BORDER. ALL THE WHILE WE HAD FBI AGENTS THAT WERE FALSIFYING DOCUMENTS AND PUSHING A POLITICAL AGENDA WITHIN THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT. IT'S ONE OF THE REASONS WHY I TELL PEOPLE THAT IF I HAVE THE PRIVILEGE OF BEING PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES WE'RE NOT JUST GOING TO HAVE A NEW ATTORNEY GENERAL AND A NEW FBI DIRECTOR, CHUCK. I'M GOING TO CLEAN HOUSE ON THE WHOLE TOP FLOOR OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, AND DEMAND THAT WE HAVE MEN AND WOMEN WHO ARE RESPECTED ON BOTH SIDES OF THE AISLE AS PEOPLE OF INTEGRITY WHO WILL APPLY THE RULE OF LAW IN THIS COUNTRY EQUALLY TO EVERY AMERICAN. >> LOOK, I WANT TO GET TO THE INDICTMENT ON THE FORMER PRESIDENT HERE AND A SPECIFIC POINT HERE HAVING TO DO WITH THE ELECTOR SCHEME BECAUSE EARLIER THIS MONTH YOU TOLD A COLLEAGUE OF MINE HERE THAT YOU DIDN'T KNOW A LOT ABOUT THE EFFORTS TO SECURE FAKE ELECTORS UNTIL AFTER THE FACT, BUT IT WAS INTERESTING, IN YOUR BOOK, YOUo BROUGHT UP THE FAKE SLATE OF ELECTORS. IN YOUR BOOK YOU SAID THIS, I ASKED HER A DIRECT QUESTION, REFERRING TO THE PARLIAMENT ARIAN, ARE THERE ANY ELECTORS FROM ANY STATE? SHE TOLD ME THERE WERE NOT. I MENTIONED THAT SOME ALTERNATE ELECTORS HAD BEEN SENT FROM SEVERAL OF THE DISPUTED STATE, THIS IS ON JANUARY 3rd. WHAT CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT WHAT YOU KNEW ABOUT THIS ELECTOR SCHEME ON JANUARY 3rd THAT PROMPTED YOU TO ASK THIS QUESTION? >> I JUST HEARD WHAT WAS BEING TALKED ABOUT IN THE PRESS AT THE TIME, BUT I THOUGHT IT WAS IMPORTANT. LOOK, IN JANUARY OF 2017 I TOOK AN OATH TO SUPPORT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES. UNDER THE CONSTITUTION, STATES CERTIFY ELECTIONS, AND WHILE THERE WERE REGULARITIES IN STATES, MAYBE HALF A DOZEN STATES AROUND THE COUNTRY THAT CHANGED THE RULES IN THE NAME OF COVID, WE CHALLENGED THOSE IN 60 COURT CASES. ONCE THE COURTS HIS REVIEWED THOSE AND THE STATES CERTIFIED THEM, I WANTED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE WERE -- WE WERE OPERATING ON JANUARY 6th IN A WAY THAT WAS CONSISTENT WITH THE CONSTITUTION, CONSISTENT WITH THE LAWS OF THE COUNTRY AND THAT'S THE REASON THAT I SAT DOWN WITH THE PARLIAMENTARIAN. I LOOKED THROUGH THE PROCESS, AND I WAS DETERMINED TO HEAR THE OBJECTIONS THAT REPUBLICANS WERE PLANNING TO BRING, CHUCK, AND MANY DID BRING. YOU REMEMBER DEMOCRATS BROUGHT OBJECTIONS TO ELECTORAL COLLEGE VOTES IN THREE OF THE LAST FOUR LECHS THAT REPUBLICANS PREVAILED -- >> UNDER THE LAW. >> RIGHT. >> I DID ASK THE PARLIAMENTARIAN -- I DID ASK THE PARLIAMENTARIAN VERY DIRECTLY, CHUCK, I ASKED HER BECAUSE I WAS HEARING RUMORS AND I WAS HEARING IN THE NEWSPAPER THAT THERE WERE ALTERNATE ELECTORS AND I ASKED HER POINT-BLANK. >> WAS ANYONE IN THE WHITE HOUSE ASKING YOU -- >> I DON'T RECALL THAT, I JUST REMEMBER HEARING IT IN THE PUBLIC AND I WANTED AN ANSWER WHETHER OR NOT THE PARLIAMENTARIAN HAD RECEIVED ELECTORAL VOTES AND SHE HAD NOT. WE ACTUALLY CHANGED THE LANGUAGE AS THOSE ELECTORAL COLLEGE VOTES WERE RECORDED, BUT LOOK, YOU KNOW, CHUCK, I'VE TOLD YOU MANY TIMES AND I'VE SAID IT AGAIN AT THE IOWA STATE FAIR. I HAD NO RIGHT TO OVERTURN THE ELECTION. THE CONSTITUTION IS QUITE CLEAR. AS VICE PRESIDENT MY JOB WAS TO PRESIDE OVER A JOINT SESSION OF CONGRESS WHERE THE CONSTITUTION SAYS THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE VOTES SHALL BE OPEN AND SHALL BE COUNTED. I DID MY DUTY THAT DAY. >> DONALD TRUMP SAID THIS WEEK THAT HE NEVER ASKED YOU TO DISREGARD THE CONSTITUTION AND THAT HE NEVER SAID THAT YOU WERE TOO HONEST. EITHER OF THOSE THINGS TRUE? [ LAUGHTER ] WELL, LOOK, YOU CAN CHECK HIS TWEETS, I THINK, ON THE DAY OF, THE DAY BEFORE. I MEAN, THE PRESIDENT WAS QUITE CLEAR AND QUITE PUBLIC THAT HE THOUGHT THAT I HAD THE AUTHORITY TO EITHER REJECT OR RETURN VOTES TO THE STATES -- >> DO YOU STAND BY THAT REMARK THAT YOU ARE TOO HONEST? YOU STAND BY THAT REMARK? >> I DO, CHUCK. IT'S PART OF A DIALOGUE THAT HAPPENED BETWEEN THE PRESIDENT AND ME, AND THAT WAS RELATED, I THINK, TO A BOGUS LAWSUIT THAT WAS BROUGHT TO TRY AND FORCE MY HAND TO HAVE A FEDERAL JUDGE SAY THAT I HAD THE RIGHT TO THROW OUT VOTES. LOOK, THERE'S ALMOST NO IDEA MORE UN-AMERICAN THAN THE IDEA THAT ANY ONE PERSON COULD CHOOSE WHICH VOTES TO COUNT FOR PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES. ED AMERICAN PEOPLE KNOW, AS I HEARD FROM DOZENS OF PEOPLE AT THE IOWA STATE FAIR, CHUCK, THAT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE KNOW THE PRESIDENCY BELONGS TO THEM, TO THEM ALONE AND NO ONE PERSON HAS EVER HAD THAT AUTHORITY OR EVER SHOULD UNDER OUR SYSTEM. >> WERE YOU SURPRISED THAT MARK MEADOWS WAS NOT LISTED AS A CO-CONSPIRATOR BECAUSE YOU HAD TOLD ME AND YOU MENTIONED IN YOUR BOOK, YOU THOUGHT HE WAS LEADING THE FORMER PRESIDENT DOWN THIS PATH ON ELECTION INTERFERENCE AND ALL OF THE PEOPLE HE WAS BRINGING INTO THE ROOM. DID IT SURPRISE YOU HE WASN'T ON THIS INDICTMENT? >> WELL, CHUCK, I DON'T REMEMBER SAYING ANYBODY WAS LEADING IT. I REMEMBER SAYING THERE WAS A GROUP OF CRACK POT LAWYERS THAT THE CHIEF OF STAFF ALLOWED TO BE IN THE OVAL OFFICE THAT FRANKLY, SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN ALOUD IN THE GROUND. >> YOU TEELD ME YOU DIDN'T THINK THE CHIEF OF STAFF SERVED THE PRESIDENT WELL BEEN. >> THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT I JUST SAID, CHUCK. I'M HAPPY TO REPEAT IT. >> LOOK, THE CHIEF STAFF IS SUPPOSED TO BE A GATEKEEPER AND HE'S SUPPOSED TO MAKE SURE PEOPLE GETTING INTO THE OVAL OFFICE HAVE THE CREDIBILITY TO BE THERE AND FRANKLY, THIS GROUP OF LAWYERS THAT WERE ALLOWED TO COUNSEL THE PRESIDENT TELL HIM WHAT HIS ITCHING EARS LONG TO HEAR THAT I HAD SOME RIGHT TO REJECT VOTES OR RETURN VOTES TO THE STATE. THERE WAS NO BASIS IN THAT IN HISTORY, BUT, YOU KNOW, LOOK, CHUCK, YOU KNOW, I THINK OUR CONSTITUTION IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN ANY ONE MAN OR ANY ONE MAN'S CAREER INCLUDING MINE. I TOOK THE STAND I TOOK THAT DAY BECAUSE OF THAT OATH THAT I TOOK, AND I COULDN'T BE MORE ENCOURAGED, CHUCK, AS ONE PERSON AFTER ANOTHER NOT JUST IN IOWA THIS LAST WEEK, BUT IN NEW HAMPSHIRE THE WEEK BEFORE. MORE AND MORE AMERICANS ARE COMING UP TO ME AND EXPRESSING THEIR APPRECIATION FOR THE STAND THEY TOOK. THEY KNOW I CHOSE TO KEEP MY OATH TO THE CONSTITUTION THAT DAY, AND IF I'M PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES I ALWAYS WILL. >> I WANT TO ASK YOU, THOUGH, YOU'RE VERY CAREFUL IN WHAT YOU TALK ABOUT WHETHER DONALD TRUMP'S THE NOMINEE AND WHETHER YOU CAN SUPPORT HIM AGAIN. IF YOU THOUGHT HE VIOLATED THE CONSTITUTION, HOW CAN YOU SUPPORT DONALD TRUMP AGAIN FOR PRESIDENT? >> CHUCK, WHAT I SAID I'M HAPPY TO MEET THE CRITERIA FOR THE UPCOMING PRESIDENTIAL DEBATES. I'M INCREDIBLY PROUD THAT MORE THAN 40,000 AMERICANS IN MORE THAN NINE WEEKS HAVE SUPPORTED OUR CAMPAIGN AND MADE IT POSSIBLE FOR US TO QUALIFY FOR THE DEBATE STAGE. IN FACT, I THINK I'LL QUALIFY FOR THE SECOND DEBATE BEFORE WE GET TO THE FIRST ONE BECAUSE MORE AMERICANS ARE SEEING THAT MY CONSISTENT CONSERVATIVE RECORD, MY YEARS AS VICE PRESIDENT, MY YEARS AS GOVERNOR IN INDIANA, MY YEARS AS A HOUSE CONSERVATIVE LEADER FOR 12 YEARS ARE REALLY JUST WHAT THE NATION NEEDS. THIS IS NO TIME FOR JOB TRAINING AND DISTRACTIONS. DO WE NEED LEADERSHIP ON DAY ONE THAT WILL BE ABLE TO PROVIDE THE TEAM AND THE VISION -- >> MR. VICE PRESIDENT -- >> AND I CAN -- >> DO YOU CONSIDER YOURSELF A MAGA REPUBLICAN? >> I'M INCREDIBLY PROUD OF WHAT WE DID IN THE TRUMP-PENCE ADMIP ADMINISTRATION FOR FOUR YEARS AND YOU BETTER BELIEVE IT. IN THOSE FOUR YEARS, AFTER EIGHT YEARS OF A DEPRESSION AND UNDER EIGHT YEARS OF OBAMA THAT HOLLOWED OUT OUR MILITARY AND UNDER THE TRUMP-PENCE ADMINISTRATION WITH THE SUPPORT OF MAGA AMERICANS WE DID LITERALLY MADE -- >> DO YOU FEEL YOU'RE A MAGA REPUBLICAN? >> LOOK, I'M A CHRISTIAN, A CONSERVATIVE AND A REPUBLICAN IN THAT ORDER. I'VE ALWAYS SAID THAT. PEOPLE WHO KNOW ME THOSE ARE MY VALUES AND THOSE ARE MY IDEALS AND I REALLY BELIEVE THAT THE AGENDA THAT I'VE ALWAYS BEEN ABOUT -- >> RIGHT. >> THAT WILL BRING THIS COUNTRY ALL OF THE WAY BACK. >> BELIEVE IT OR NOT I DO WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT SOMETHING YOU DID THIS WEEK. YOU ROLLED OUT AN ENERGY PLAN. "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL," I THINK WAS COMPLIMENTING YOU BY CHARACTERIZING IT AS DRILL, BABY, DRILL. A, DO YOU ACCEPT THAT AS A COMPLIMENT, AND B. >> YES. >> DO YOU THINK THE GOVERNMENT, THOUGH, SHOULD PLAY A ROLE IN TRYING TO FIND RENEWABLE MERGE TO REPLACE FOSSIL FUELS AT SOME POINT? IT DOESN'T SOUND LIKE YOU THINK THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD PLAY THAT ROLE. >> WELL, LOOK, GASOLINE PRICES JUMPED BACK UP THIS WEEK. REMEMBER $2 A GALLON, CHUCK? I SURE DO. THAT HAPPENED UNDER OUR ADMINISTRATION. WE UNLEASHED AMERICAN ENERGY. IT WAS ALL OF THE ABOVE ENERGY STRATEGY, WE ACHIEVED AMERICAN ENERGY INDEPENDENCE IN THREE SHORT YEARS. JOE BIDEN LAUNCHED A WAR ON ENERGY ON DAY ONE AND SHUT DOWN THE KEYSTONE AND DAKOTA PIPELINES AND ENERGY PRICES, GAS PRICERS STILL UP 60%, ELECTRICITY PRICES ARE UP 25%. WE LAID OUT A VISION, FOLLOWING ON MY PLAN TO TACKLE INFLATION AND WE LAID OUT A VISION THIS LAST WEEK. NOT JUST TO TACKLE ENERGY INDEPENDENCE AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT YOUR COLLEAGUES AT "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL" NEGLECTED TO MENTION. I BELIEVE WITH THE RIGHT POLICIES GOING FORWARD WE CAN RECLAIM OUR ROLE AS THE LEADING PRODUCER OF ENERGY IN THE WORLD BY 2040. IT WILL TAKE LEADERSHIP. IT WILL TAKE A COMMITMENT TO AMERICAN ENERGY INDEPENDENCE AND ON DAY ONE OF -- OF A PRESIDENCY THAT I WOULD BE PRIVILEGED TO SERVE IN, WE'LL FIGHT TO RESTORE THIS AMERICAN ENERGY STRENGTH, LEADERSHIP AND DOMINANCE ON THE WORLD. >> FORMER VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE, SOUNDS LIKE YOU GOT A NIGHT AT HOME WHICH IS RARE ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL UPON BE SAFE ON THE TRAIL, AND WE'LL SEE YOU ON THE DEBATE STAGE. >> THANKS SO MUCH AND CHUCK, I APPRECIATE YOU HAVING ME ON. >> YOU GOT IT. WHEN WE COME BACK, HE WANTS PRESIDENT B >>> WELCOME BACK. PRESIDENT BIDEN CURRENTLY FACES JUST TWO MINOR DEMOCRATIC CHALLENGES, ROBERT KENNEDY, JR., HE HAS A FOIMOUS NAME AND HE'S A LAWYER AND VACCINE SKEPTIC WHOSE CANDIDACY HAS BEEN BOOSTED BY STEVE BANNON AND FINANCED IN PART BY MAGA DONORS, BELIEVE IT OR NOT AND SHE'S A SELF-HELP AUTHOR AND WAS ON THE DEBATE STAGE BRIEFLY IN 2020. CORNELL WEST IS VYING FOR THE GREEN PARTY NOMINATION AND COULD PULL VOTES FROM THE LEFT AND WEST VIRGINIA DEMOCRATIC SENATOR JOE MARCHIN IS FLIRTING WITH AN INDEPENDENT RUN AND MAY LEAVE THE PARTY ON DO THAT. NOW MINNESOTA CONGRESSMAN DEAN PHILIPS IS CALLING FOR A MORE DEMOCRATIC PRIMARY SAYING THEY WANT A COMPETITION. PHILIPS WHO IS IN HIS THIRD TERM REPRESENTING MINNEAPOLIS. HE LOST HIS FATHER IN VIETNAM AFTER BUSINESS SCHOOL IN MINNESOTA HE JOINED THE FAMILY BUSINESS. HE WENT ON TO HELP BUILD TALENTI GELATO AND ALSO OPENED PENNY'S COFFEE, A SMALL BUSINESS IN THE TWIN CITIES AND HE'S IN HIS THIRD TERM. HE'S DENOUNCED NOTE-LAFLS ATTEMPT TO FILL A THIRD-PARTY TUCKET AND HE'S CALLED FOR SERIOUS PRIMARY CHALLENGERS TO PRESIDENT BIDEN AND HE MET WITH DEMOCRATIC DONORS ABOUT THE RACE POTENTIALLY ENTERING IT HMS IF NO ONE ELSE DOES. CONGRESSMAN PHILIPS, WELCOME TO "MEET THE PRESS". >> YOU ARE NOT INTERESTED IN BEING A CANDIDATE FOR PRESIDENT TECHNICALLY YOURSELF RIGHT NOW OR ARE YOU? >> THAT'S A FAIR STATEMENT. WHAT I AM TECHNICALLY DOING IS I'M A REPRESENTATIVE AND I AM REPRESENTING WHAT I BELIEVE TO BE THE MAJORITY OF THE COUNTRY WHO WANTS TO TURN THE PAGE. TIRED OF THE MEANNESS AND FEAR MOJERRING OF DONALD TRUMP, A WANT TO SEE JOE BIDEN, A WONDERFUL AND REMARKABLE MAN PASS THE TORCH. >> YOU DON'T WANT HIM TO RUN FOR RE-ELECTION? >> THIS IS NOT HOW EVERYONE THINKS IN THE COUNTRY, I DO BELIEVE THE MAJORITY WANTS TO MOVE ON. THE FACT IS I LISTEN TO NORMAL AMERICANS EVERY DAY AND MY OWN FEELINGS. >> IS THIS ALL ABOUT AGE? >> NO. NO. THIS IS ABOUT HOW PEOPLE FEEL. BY THE WAY, IT'S NOT ABOUT WHAT'S REAL. IT'S ABOUT HOW PEOPLE FEEL. PEOPLE WANT TO TURN THE PAGE. IT'S FAIR TO SAY. AS A DEMOCRAT, I ADORE JOE BIDEN. HE SAVED THIS COUNTRY. IT'S NOT ABOUT ME. THE CALL TO ACTION IS TO ASK THE PRESIDENT TO PASS THE TORCH. THERE'S AN EXTRAORDINARY BENCH OF PEOPLE READY TO GO. >> WHO WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE IN THIS POSITION? >> I WOULD LIKE TO SEE A MODERATE GOVERNOR, HOPEFULLY FROM THE HEARTLAND. >> GRETCHEN WHITMER, TONY E BEHRS. >> JOB SHAPIRO. A NUMBER OF PEOPLE, PRITZKER. >> SOME PEOPLE ASK ME NOT USE THEIR NAMES BECAUSE OF THE FEAR. >> I'M DOING SOMETHING THAT'S UNPOPULAR AS A DEMOCRAT. THAT'S MY JOB, MY DUTY IS TO THE PEOPLE I REPRESENT AND ALSO TO REPRESENT THE MASS MAJORITY, AND I WANT TO SAY THIS ABOUT DEMOCRATS. IT'S VERY IMPORTANT. JOE BIDEN IS DOWN SEVEN POINTS AND HE HAS HISTORICALLY LOW APPROVAL NUMBERS, CHUCK. 55% OF DEMOCRATS WOULD LIKE TO SEE AN ALTERNATIVE. I CAN KEEP DOING DOWN THE LIST. >> EVERYTHING YOU'VE HEARD IN PRIVATE. WHY DO YOU THINK IT'S IN PRIVATE. WHY DO YOU THINK THIS HAND WRINGING IS ONLY GONE PUBLIC FOR YOU. >> IT'S VERY SIMPLE. IT'S SELF-PRESERVATION AND NO POLITICAL REWARD FOR SIMPLY SPEAKING THE TRIETH. LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENED TO MY REPUBLICAN COLLEAGUES WHO DARED DO THE RIGHT THING AND SUPPORT THE CONSTITUTION. SUPPORT THE CONSTITUTION THE ONLY THING TO WHICH YOU'RE DUTYBOUND. LOOK ADWHAT HAPPENED TO THEM. IT'S NOT GOOD TO GET OUT OF LINE, STAND UP AND SHOUT A LITTLE BIT AT A TIME THAT WE NEED IT MORE THAN EVER AND I'M AFRAID THAT THAT'S THE CULTURE IN THIS INSTITUTION IN WASHINGTON, D.C.. >> YOU BELIEVE THE HUNTER BIDEN NEWS REENFORCES THIS EVEN MORE, DON'T YOU? >> I DON'T THINK THE PRESIDENT IS CORRUPT. I THINK THE INVESTIGATION WILL SHOW THAT, BUT, THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART, IT'S THE IMAGE. IT'S WHAT THE NEWS WILL DO. WE KNOW WHAT ERA WE LIVE IN IN PARTISANSHIP. IT IS THE ATTACHMENT TO THE PRESIDENT. MOST PEOPLE AREN'T WATCHING "MEET THE PRESS". >> WON'T THIS HAPPEN TO ANY DEMOCRATIC NOMINEE? >> IT WOULD, IT SADDENS ME. I REPRESENT THE PEOPLE WHO ARE TIRED OF THIS NONSENSE. WE HAVE A DUOPOLY, A POLITICAL AND INDUSTRIAL CON FLEX AND IT'S THE STATUS QUO. >> I HAVE TROUBLE WITH DONALD TRUMP, I DO NOT HAVE TROUBLE WITH TRUMPERS WHO ARE TRYING TO FIND SOMEONE TO CHANGE THE SYSTEM. THE HARDWARE IS FINE. THE SOFTWARE SAY PROBLEM. THE PEOPLE WITH WHOM WE'RE POPULATING THE SYSTEM AND I UNDERSTAND THE NEED FOR TRANSPARENCY AND WE NEED TO RESTORE FAITH IN GOVERNMENT, AND WE SHOULD DO THAT IN A THOUGHTFUL, LEGITIMATE AND BIPARTISAN MANNER AND IT CAN BE DONE AND WE NEED LEADERS IN THE NEXT GENERATION TO DO SO AND I'M SIMPLY EXPRESSING THAT POINT OF VIEW THEY THINK IS SHARED BY THE MAJORITY OF AMERICANS. >> WHAT CAN PRESIDENT BIDEN DO TO ASSURE YOU HE'S UP FOR A SECOND TERM? >> I LOOK AT THE DATA. I LISTEN EVERY DAY BACK IN MINNESOTA. >> I COME FROM THE MARKETING WORLD. THAT'S MY BACKGROUND. SOMETIMES YOU HAVE A PRODUCT THAT MEETS THE MOMENT AND YOU THINK IT WILL BE THE IN, BIG THING AND IT JUST DOESN'T HAPPEN. IN BUSINESS, THE DATA SPEAKS THE TRUTH. IF NOBODY'S WILLING TO TALK ABOUT IT BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE. THAT'S THE KEY. >> WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT IS BASICALLY THE HISTORY OF OUR LIFETIMES, OKAY? YOU GO BACK, THE LAST FOUR SITTING PRESIDENTS WHO HAD SERIOUS PRIMARY CHALLENGERS, THAT PARTY LOST THE WHITE HOUSE. >> CHUCK -- >> WE GO BACK TO LBJ AND GERALD FORD, JIMMY CARTER, GEORGE H.W. BUSH. >> WHY WERE THEY PRIMARIED? PEOPLE RECOGNIZE THEY WERE WEAKENED AND THE COUNTRY WAS READY TO TURN THE PAGE. >> WE CAN HAVE AN HOUR DEBATE ON THE SUBJECT. >> I UNDERSTAND THAT. I RAN FOR CONGRESS -- AFTER 2016 ELECTION I WOKE UP THAT NEXT MORNING AND MY TEENAGE DAUGHTERS WERE IN TEARS AND I AM PROISSED THEM THEY WOULD DOING SOME, AND I'M NOT GOING TO BE QUIET NOW, FIVE YEARS LATER WHEN THE SAME TRAUMA CAN BE A FLEKTED THE COUNTRY WHEN DONALD TRUMP IS RE-ELECTED. I WILL DO NOTHING TO MAKE SURE DONALD TRUMP IS RE-ELECTED AND IT'S VERY IMPORTANT PEOPLE KNOW THIS. I'M DOING THE OPPOSITE AND IF PEOPLE AREN'T WILLING TO HAVE THAT DISCUSSION TO HAVE THE DISCUSSION AND MOST IMPORTANTLY TO PRESENT ALTERNATIVES, HOW IN THE WORLD WILL WE LOOK AT THESE NUMBERS AND SAY EVERYTHING IS OKAY. HOPES, DREAMS AND PRAYERS, I LOVE THEM. THEY SOLVE GUN VIOLENCE. THEY DON'T GIVE HEALTH INSURANCE TO AMERICAN, RIGHT AND THEY SURE AS HECK WON'T CHANGE THE NUMBERS I'M SEEING RIGHT NOW. >> HAVE YOU TALKED TO JOE MANCHIN? >> JOE MANCHIN, CORNELL WEST. >> YOU WANT HIM IN THE PRIMARY? >> IN THE PRIMARY. THAT'S WHY WE HAVE PRIMARIES BECAUSE THAT DOESN'T UNDERMINE THE LIKELIHOOD OF RETURNING IN THIS CASE A DEMOCRAT TO THE WHITE HOUSE. ENTER THE PRIMARY, MY FRIENDS AND EVERYBODY ON THE BENCH, DON'T WAIT FIVE YEARS. WE NEED YOU NOW. >> YOU'RE WAITING FOR SOMEBODY WHOM YOU SAID -- >> HOW LONG WILL YOU WAIT? >> WAITING IS LIKE HOPES AND PRAYERS. I'M ACTIVELY INVITING, ENCOURAGING TO PEOPLE THAT ARE READY AND KNOW IT'S TIME TO TAKE THE CHANCE. >> YOU MET WITH DONORS, ARE YOU MEETING WITH CANDIDATES -- >> IF DONORS AND AVERAGE, EVERYDAY, WONDERFUL, NORMAL AMERICANS ARE COMING TO ME OF ALL PEOPLE YOU DON'T THINK THEY'RE APPROACHING THOSE PEOPLE IN MUCH HIGHER NUMBERS WITH MORE FREQUENCY? >> I KNOW THEY ARE, AND I'LL MAKE THE DECISIONqN ONCE I DO M DARNEDEST IN THE NEXT MONTH OR TWO TO ENCOURAGE OTHERS TO DO SO. PLEASE, THIS IS AN APPEAL TO EVERYBODY OF GOOD CONSCIENCE AND GOOD CHARACTER, LET'S TURN THE PAGE AND IMAGINE HOW FUN, HOPEFUL AND EXCITING WOULD BE. WE WILL DO IT. FOO DEAN PHILIPS, DEMOCRAT FROM SUBURBAN MINNESOTA, WE WILL SEE YOU, HOPEFULLY AT THIS TABLE TO MAKE YOUR DECISION. >> I LOOK FORWARD TO. >> BEFORE WE GO TO BREAK, AT LEAST 93 PEOPLE AS OF THIS MORN HAVING DIED FROM THE DEVASTATING FIRE ON MAUI THIS WEEK MAKING IT THE DEADLIEST NATURAL DISASTER AND NOW THE NATION'S DEAD LIEST WILDFIRE. IF YOU WANT TO HELP PLEASE CONSIDER THESE ORGANIZATIONS THAT WE VETTED, THE MAUI FOOD BANK, THE THE HAWAII COMMUNITY FOUND DALGDZ. THE 2024 IS CLOUDED BY NOT ONE, NOT TWO, BU THREE SPECIAL COUNSELS, INVESTIGATING A SITTINGPRESIDENT, >>> WELCOME BACK. THE PANEL IS HERE. BETSY WOODRUFF SWANN, WITH POLITICO. POLITICO CO-AUTHOR EUGENE DANIELS. BRANDON BUCK, AND SYMONE SANDERS-TOWNSEND, FORMER SPOKESPERSON FOR KAMALA HARRIS AND PART OF THEED BIEN CAMPAIGN. YOU WERE THERE WHEN THE HUNTER BIDEN DEAL FELL AXE PART. DID YOU THINK TWO WEEKS LATER YOU'D BE COVERING THE SPECIAL COUNTS SNELL. >> IN THE COURTROOM THAT DAY IT WAS CLEAR THAT THINGS WERE GOING TOTALLY SIDEWAYS, AND IT WAS CLEAR THAT ONE OF THE MOST BASIC THINGS, THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT PROSECUTORS AND DEFENSE ATTORNEYS ARE ALWAYS SUPPOSED TO DO BEFORE ROLLING OUT A PLEA DEAL THAT THEY HAD NOT DONE. WHAT THEY HAD NOT AGREED ON, ACCORDING TO THIS COURT HEARING, WAS JUST HOW MUCH PROTECTION HUNTER BIDEN WOULD RECEIVE FROM OTHER FUTURE CRIMINAL CHARGES FROM DOJ, AND AT THE SAME TIME, IN THAT TOTALLY WACKY, BIZARRO WORLD HEARING, THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT PROSECUTORS ALSO SAID THEY WERE STILL INVESTIGATING HUNTER BIDEN AND THEY REFUSED TO GIVE ANY ELABORATION ON WHAT THEY MEANT BY THAT. SO IT'S NOT SURPRISING AT ALL THAT TWO WEEKS LATER WHEN DOJ AND THOSE DEFENSE LAWYERS WENT BACK TO THE DRAWING BOARD THEY COULDN'T CHANGE WHERE THEY WERE AT ON JUST HOW MUCH THE PLEA DEAL WOULD LIMIT THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT. THAT WAS THE KEY ISSUE. HOW MUCH CONTINUED, CRIMINAL EXPOSURE DID HUNTER FACE? THEY COULDN'T AGREE ON IT AND IT'S NOT A SURPRISE THAT NOW DOJ SAYS THEY'RE HEADED TO TRIAL. >> EUGENE, I CAN'T HELP BUT BRING UP WHAT CHUCK RHODESENBERG SAID. HE THOUGHT THIS WAS COSMETIC. >> YEAH. >> WHICH MAKES YOU THINK THAT GARLAND IS FOCUSED ON THE PERCEPTION AND WE'RE FOCUSED ON THE REALITY. >> ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT GARLAND FROM THE BEGINNING, ANYONE YOU TALK TO WHO IS PART OF THE ACTUAL CHOOSING OF MERRICK GARLAND IS THAT THEY WERE ALWAYS SOMEONE THAT THEY WOULD STAY TOO FAR BACK. THEY WERE GOING TO BE DOING SPECIAL COUNSELS BECAUSE HE WAS SO CONCERNED ABOUT THE PERCEPTION. >> I THOUGHT THE WHOLE POINT OF A CIRCUIT COURT JUDGE WAS TO AVOID THE SPECIAL COUNSEL. THAT WAS THE WHOLE IDEA, YOU'RE BRINGING IN SOMEBODY THAT BIPARTISAN CONFIRMATION HEARING. >> EXACTLY. EXACTLY. >> BUT THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT THE WAY THAT MERRICK GARLAND SEES THE WORLD AND ONE OF THE FOUR YEARS THAT DONALD TRUMP AND THE DOJ THAT HE JUST WANTED TO MAKE SURE THAT PEOPLE CAN EVEN SNIFF IT OUT THAT THERE WAS SOMETHING GOING ON WRONG AND THAT'S WHAT WE'RE SEEING SPECIAL COUNSEL AFTER SPECIAL COUNSEL AFTER SPECIAL COUNSEL. >> SYMONE, IS THIS GOING TO HARM THE CAMPAIGN MORE PERSONALLY BECAUSE PRESIDENT BIDEN, YOU CAN'T TALK TO HIM ABOUT THIS THAN IT DOES PRACTICALLY OR DO YOU THINK THIS IS PRETTY HARMFUL? >> I THINK THAT THIS IS SOMETHING THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN IS BEING TALKED TO ABOUT. THE QUESTION IS IS IT A BIG GROUP ROUNDTABLE CONVERSATION AND I WOULD ARGUE AND SAY NO. IF YOU LOOK AT THE IPSOS POLL THAT WAS ANNOUNCED FOR HUNTER BIDEN, AMERICANS WHO WERE POLLED AND WHO WERE ASKED THEY VIEW THIS AS A PERSONAL ISSUE FISH FOR HUNTER AND NOT AN ISSUE FOR PRSZ AND RIGHT NOW IT IS NOT AFFECTING THE WAY PEOPLE ARE CONSIDERING VOTING IN 2024. >> YOU KNOW, BRENNAN, YOU CAN'T HELP, BUT WATCH THIS PLAY OUT AND DONALD TRUMP HAS BEEN TRYING TO BRING BIDEN'S BRAND DOWN TO HIM. IT GOES BACK TO 2018 WHEN HE SENT RUDY GIULIANI TO UKRAINE. HE'S BEEN DESPERATE AND HE DID IT. >> YEAH. AND IT'S JOE BIDEN'S ATTORNEY GENERAL THAT ANNOUNCED THE INVESTIGATION. >> ONE OF THE THINGS JOE BIDEN WAS ELECTED TO DO WAS TO CLEAR OUT THE MESS IN THE WHITE HOUSE, BRING ETHICS AND DECENCY BACK AND THIS IS CLEARLY AN EFFORT TO DO THAT. I THINK THE WHITE HOUSE AND THE PRESIDENT'S RE-ELECTION NEED TO TAKE THIS A BIT MORE SERIOUSLY THAN WHAT THEY'RE DOING. IT WAS VERY EASY FOR A LONG TIME FOR DEMOCRATS TO SAY THAT'S CRAZY -- >> YOU CAN CALL IT HOUSE REPUBLICAN STUFF AND NOW IT'S TRIAL AND FRONT-PAGE NEWS EVERYWHERE. I THINK THEY CAN APPRECIATE THAT THIS COULD DAMAGE HIM PRETTY SERIOUSLY. >> WANT TO BRING SOMETHING UP ABOUT THE LEGAL -- LET ME SHOW YOU THIS EXCERPT FROM AN AXIOS FOCUS GROUP ABOUT THE INDICTMENTS. MICHIGAN SWING VOTERS FROM OUR FRIEND RICH. HERE IT IS. >> WHO CAN TELL ME WHAT THIS LATEST INDICTMENT IS RELATED TO? IN OTHER WORDS, WHAT EVENT? WHO CAN TELL ME WHAT THIS IS RELATED TO? NOT BLURTING IT OUT. FIVE OF YOU. WHAT IS IT ABOUT? >> I'M TORN ON THE GEORGIA OR THE DOCUMENTS. IT'S ONE OF THOSE TWO. >> I THOUGHT IT WAS ABOUT THE WHOLE STORMY DANIELS SCANDAL. >> THIS IS SOMETHING THAT YOU WONDER, IS IT ALL MUD AND IT'S HARD -- HOW MANY VOTERS ARE LIKE THEM AND THEY SEE THE MUD AND NOT THE DETAILS. >> THE DETAILS RELATED TO TRUMP WILL MOVE WHERE THEY'RE AT ON THESE THINGS BECAUSE THERE'S ALREADY BEEN SO MUCH OUT IN RELATION TO THE FORMER PRESIDENT. WHEN IT COMES TO THE OTHER SIDE OF THE ISSUE THERE'S A HUGE, POTENTIAL POLITICAL LAND MINE FOR PRESIDENT BIDEN. THAT IS HUNTER BIDEN'S LAWYERS HAVE TOLD DOJ THAT IF THEY BRING CHARGES AGAINST HIM OF BEING A DRUG USER IN POSSESSION OF A GUN WHICH IS A FELONY, HUNTER'S LAWYERS HAVE SAID THAT THEY WILL ARGUE THAT STATUTE IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL UNDER THE SECOND AMENDMENT. THAT WOULD MEAN THAT BIDEN IS RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT AS SOMEON% ARGUING TO CONSTRAIN GUN RIGHTS, HUNTER'S LAWYERS WOULD BE DEFENDING HIM BY SAYING NO, THOSE RIGHTS NEED TO BE BROADER. LOTS OF OTHER CRIMINAL DEFENSE LAWYERS HAVE MADE THAT CASE, BUT TALK ABOUT A MASSIVE POLITICAL HEADACHE FOR THE WHITE HOUSE. >> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THE REASON THAT IT'S PROBABLY WORSE FOR THE BIDEN FOLKS BECAUSE IT'S COUNTER TO WHAT BIDEN -- THE NARRATIVE IS THAT I'M A FAMILY MAN WHO DOESN'T HAVE A LOT OF DRAMA, THAT'S WHY HE CHOSE ME. I'M HERE TO PUT MY HANDS ON -- EXACTLY HOW BRANDON'S TALKING ABOUT AND MOST PEOPLE WON'T UNDERSTAND -- >> YOU HEAR SPECIAL COUNSEL AND THAT IS THE CONCERN TO FOLKS AND THE BIDEN FOLKS HAVE RESIGNED THEMSELVES THAT HUNTER BIDEN WOULD BE USED AS A BLUDGEON AGAINST THEM DURING THE CAMPAIGN. THEY DON'T SEE THIS AS THAT DIFFERENT? FAIR. >> THE CONFUSION THERE IS EXACTLY WHEN I'M TALKING ABOUT UPON IF THE DEMOCRATS DON'T REALIZE IF YOU DON'T DEFINE THIS THE REPUBLICANS WILL JUMP IN THERE AND EXPLAIN WHAT HAPPENED AND THEY'LL TIE IT TO THE PRESIDENT AND THEY NEED TO BE CLEAR THAT NO EVIDENCE WAS FOUND TO TIE TO HIM. >> DEAN PHILIPS? >> WHAT ABOUT DEAN PHILIPS? [ LAUGHTER ] >> DO YOU THINK BY THE END OF THIS, DO YOU THINK THAT BETWEEN HUNTERED BIEN AND THIS HAND WRINGING ABOUT HIM IN GENERAL, THIS POLL NUMBER -- >> CHUCK, I WROTE DOWN WHAT CONGRESSMAN PHILIPS SAID. HE SAID AS A CALL TO ACTION TO ASK THE PRESIDENT TO PASS THE TORCH. MY QUESTION IS WHERE WERE THESE CONVERSATIONS WHEN THERE WERE ALL OF THESE ARTICLES FROM POLITICO TO "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL" TO AXIOS ABOUT THE PRESIDENT NOT ANNOUNCING THE RE-ELECTION AND WONDERING IF HE WOULD DO IT. THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN THE TIME FOR FOLKS TO AIR THESE CONCERNS AND GRIEVANCES. I DO NOT THINK THERE IS A LEGITIMATE APPETITE FOR ANOTHER DEMOCRATIC CANDIDATE. >> ALL RIGHT. WE'LL GET IN AGAIN, TO ALL OF YOU, WE'LL COME BACK. OHIO VOTERS DELIVERED A VICTORY FOR ♪♪ ♪ >>> WELCOME BACK. "DATA DOWNLOAD," TIME AND YET ANOTHER WIN FOR REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS. OHIO VOTERS DEFEATED A PLAN THAT WOULD HAVE MADE IT MORE DIFFICULT TO ENSHRINE ABORTION RIGHTS IN THE STATE CONSTITUTION. THE OHIO VOTE IS JUST THE LATEST EXAMPLE OF HOW IN STATE AFTER STATE VOTERS ARE COMING DOWN ON THE SIDE OF ABORTION RIGHTS, AND THEY'RE NOT JUST DEMOCRATS. LET ME JUST SHOW YOU HERE IN OHIO. THIS WAS THE OVERALL NUMBER HERE. 57-43, DOUBLE-DIGIT WIN FOR ESSENTIALLY THE ABORTION RIGHTS SIDE. AGAIN, THIS WAS A ONE OFF. THIS WASN'T ABOUT ABORTION DIRECTLY YET. THAT REFERENDUM WILL NOW TAKE PLACE IN NOVEMBER IN OHIO. DONALD TRUMP WON A OHIO BY SINGLE DIJ SXITS MIKE DEWINE WON IT BY 25 POINTS AND THERE'S A DISTIFRNGS, MAG A MAG A MIKE DEWINE. WHY AM I BRINGING THIS UP? BECAUSE IT'S IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTANDING THE ISSUE OF ABORTION. WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE DO YOU APPROACH OF THE OVERTURNING OF ROE V. WADE? TWO-THIRDS APPROVED OF IT. YOU SEE THE DIVIDE INSIDE THE PARTY. MAGA REPUBLICANS APPROVED IT AT 80% AND THIS IS HOW YOU SEE IT ON THE MAP. THIS IS YOUR SUBURBAN REPUBLICANS. THESE ARE THE VOTERS THAT HAVE BEEN GOING BACK AND FORTH ON TRUM FOR SOME TIME. HERE'S THE 2020 VOTE AND YOU ONLY SAW THERE SEVEN COUNTIES THAT JOE BIDEN WON, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE 2023 BALLOT MEASURE HERE ON ABORTION RIGHTS AND EACH ONE OF THOSE URBAN AREAS THAT BIDEN WON THERE WAS SPREAD, MORE OF THESE SUBURBAN REPUBLICAN-LEANING COUNTIES ENDED UP VOTING ON THE ABORTION RIGHTS SIDE, BE IT AROUND CLEVELAND, COLUMBUS, TOLEDO AND EVEN IN AND AROUND DAYTON. GUESS WHAT? WE SAW THE SAME PATTERN IN TEXAS, AND WHEN IT WAS ABOUT ABORTION RIGHTS YOU SAW SUBURBAN COUNTIES AROUND WICHITA, AND THE SUBURBAN COUNTIES AROUND TOPEKA AND KANSAS CITY AND THOSE THAT WENT REPUBLICAN IN PRESIDENTIAL ENDED UP VOTING ON THE ABORTION RIGHTS SIDE AND MICHIGAN SAW THE SAME THING AGAIN. IN EACH OF THESE CASES, THE METRO AREA, SPREAD, IF YOU WILL, THOSE SUBURBAN COUNTIES. THEY ARE NOT TRUMP FANS IN GENERAL AND THEY'RE CERTAINLY NOT FANS OF THE OVERTURNING OF ROE V. WADE. FIVE AMERICANS IMPRISONED ARE CLOSER TO HOME AFTER THEY MOVED THEM TO HOUSE ARREST. IT'S THE FIRST STEP OF A PLANNED PRISONER EXCHANGE IN WHICH THE U.S. WILL ALSO RELEASE $6 BILLION OF FROZEN IRANIAN ASSETS FROM SOUTH KOREA. MORE THAN 40 YEARS AGO, PRESIDENT JIMMY CARTER STRUGGLED TO NAVIGATE THE UNFOLDING IRAN HOSTAGE CRISIS AT THAT TIME, AND JOE BIDEN THEN A SENATOR ON THE FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE JOINED OUR BROADCAST TO OFFER HIS PERSPECTIVE. >> I THINK THE MOST IMPORTANT THING BOTH FOR THE AMERICAN PUBLIC AND FOR THE IRANIANS AND THE AYATOLLAH TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT THE PRESIDENT IS COOL, CALM AND DELIBERATE AND LOGICAL ABOUT THE STEPS HE'S GOING TO TAKE SHOWING ABSOLUTE RESOLVE AND NOT TO GO IN -- WITH A SENSE OF BRAVADO AT THIS POINT AND DO WHAT EVERYONE FROM WEITZMAN TO THE MAN ON THE STREET KNOWS WOULD RESULT IN THE IMMEDIATE DEATH OF THE HOSTAGES BY SOME MAJOR MILITARY FORCE. I THINK THERE IS A LOGICAL PROGRESSION AND I THINK IT WILL RESOLVE IN THE RELEASE OF HOSTAGES, BUT I HAVE NO CRYSTAL BALL. GOD ONLY KNOWS. >> JOE BIDEN WAS JUSTIN HIS >>> WACH. IT'S BEEN SEVEN STATES POST-DOBBS THAT WE'VE SEEN IN ANYTHING RELATED TO ABORTION RIGHTS END UP FALLING IN FAVOR OF THE ABORTION RIGHTS SIDE. BRENDAN BUCK, A LOT OF REPUBLICANS AND CONSERVATIVES ARE STARTING TO RE-THINK THEIR STAND ON THIS ISSUE. HERE'S SEAN HANNITY EARLIER THIS WEEK. >> I BELIEVE IN THE SANCTITY OF LIFE, BUT I THINK POLITICALLY THAT THERE IS REPUBLICANS HAVE GOT TO SAY, AS BILL CLINTON ONCE SAID, I NEVER THOUGHT I'D QUOTE HIM, RARE, LEGAL AND I WOULD ADD VERY EARLY IN A PREGNANCY, THAT SEEMS TO BE POLITICALLY WHERE THE COUNTRY IS. MAYBE I'M WRONG. THAT VOTE IN OHIO IS PRETTY SOBERING. >> HOW MANY ELECTED REPUBLICANS SHARE SEAN HANNITY'S CONCERN? >> PROBABLY MORE THAN A FEW, BUT I'M NOT HOLDING MY BREATH. GETTING PEOPLE ELECTED IN THE REPUBLICAN PRIMARY, AND IT'S CLEARLY A LOSER FOR US, BUT I THINK WE'RE A LONG WAYS OUT FROM BEING ABLE TO RECOGNIZE THAT AND MAKING ANY MEANINGFUL CHANGE. >> THAT'S INTERESTING. AS EVERYBODY HAND WRINGS,ED BIENT AND TRUMP, NO PUN INTENDED IS THIS I TRUMP CARD FOR THE DEMOCRAT? >> IF YOU LOOK AT 2022, EVERYWHERE WHERE ABORTION WAS ON THE BALLOT, VOTERS WENT IN SUPPORT OF CODIFYING THOSE RIGHTS INTO THEIR STATE'S CONSTITUTION. THIS OHIO VOTE IS A PRECURSOR TO WHAT WE WILL SEE IN NOVEMBER. >> BY AN IDENTICAL VOTE. >> YEAH. WE WANT THESE RIGHTS ENSHRINED IN THE CONSTITUTION BECAUSE PEOPLE SEE WHAT IS HAPPENING. VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS HAS BEEN VERY VOCAL ON THIS ISSUE RALLYING FOLKS ACROSS THE COUNTRY REMINDING PEOPLE THAT THIS IS ABOUT FREEDOM AND BEING ABLE TO MAKE DECISIONS BETWEEN THE HEALTH CARE PROFESSIONALS AND YOU AND YOUR FAMILY AND NOT POLITICIANS. THAT'S SOMETHING THAT RESONATES WITH THE VOTE. >> EUGENE, KARL ROVE IN '03 SAW SAME-SEX MARRIAGE PROPOSITIONS -- ANTI-SAME-SEX MARRIAGE PROPOSITIONS IN TWING SAY THES AS A WAY TO AFFECT TURNOUT, IN PLACES LIKE ARIZONA AND FLORIDA. >> ABSOLUTELY. THEY KNOW THAT THE VOTERS WERE SCARED AFTER DOBBS AND THE ONE THING THAT THEY HAVE DONE A GOOD JOB OF IS ACTUALLY CHANNELING THAT FEAR AND ANGER AND THIS IS ONE OF THE WAYS TO DO THAT, RIGHT? YOU LOOK AT OHIO. IS THIS THE WAY YOU CAN MAKE SURE THAT THE VOTERS COME OUT TO VOTE IN NOVEMBER? WAS IT THIS NOVEMBER OR NEXT NOVEMBER, MICHIGAN IS ONE AND FLORIDA. I'M GOING TO BE FASCINATED AT HOW THEY ALL TRY TO TIPTOE AROUND IT ALL. >> THAT'S RIGHT. NO QUESTION. IT'S ONE OF THE BIGGEST CHALLENGES WITH THE HOTTEST POTATOES, SHALL WE SAY, FOR THIS REPUBLICAN PRIMARY VOTERS AND IT RAISES A REALLY INTERESTING ISSUE FOR REPUBLICAN GOVERNORS AND STATE LEGISLATURES AS THEY TRY TO PLAY DEFENSE AGAINST THESE BALLOT INITIATIVES. ARKANSAS PASSED A LAW MAKING IT HARDER TO GET BALLOT INITIATIVES INSTEAD OF MEETING SIGNATURES FROM PEOPLE WITH 15 COUNTIES. >> IF YOU'RE CHANGING THE RULES RATHER THAN CHANGING THE POSITION YOU WILL STILL LOSE TO THE VOTES ARE. IT ALWAYS -- IT FASCINATES ME WHEN PEOPLE TRY ON DO IT. >> THINK IT'S INTERESTING THE WAY IT PLAYED OUT. IF YOU WATCHED THE ADS, THEY WEREN'T ABOUT ABORTION. THEY DON'T EACH WANT TO TAKE ON THE ISSUE HEAD-ON BECAUSE THEY KNOW IT'S A LOSER. >> WHAT A WEEK. THAT'S ALL WE HAVE FOR TODAY, THANKS FOR WATCHING. WE'LL BE BACK NEXT WEEK BECAUSE IF IT'S SUNDAY, IT'S "MEET THE PRESS."
