Martin Sheen: Lights, Camera, Activism | THE THREAD Documentary Series

my real name is Ramon estas uh Martin Sheen is a stage name that I I never changed officially I'm still Ramon it's on my driver's license passport all my official papers Sheen is Makey up and uh if this gig doesn't work out I'll go back to Ramon you [Music] know [Music] I've heard you say the difference between acting for a living and what you do for life so please tell me tell me that philosophy of your life well I've often said that acting is what I do for a living but activism is what I do to stay alive at what point in your life because you've been an actor since a very early age at what point did that become true for you well I you know Frankie I I don't have any conscious memory of ever not being an actor I didn't know that that's what you called it when I was a child till I started going to the movies around age five or six and gradually it dawned on me that I was like those people up on the screen and and it was a a a mighty possession you know it possessed me and it gave me a possession of myself I knew uh that I was going to do that thing that I couldn't identify but I I knew it in the depths of my being uh and that I knew that if I didn't do it I would never be happy and I would never be free it it was instinctual and it was necessary for my survival was the activist tradition part of your family growing up or came to on your own uh you know I I I wouldn't have called myself an activist when I was a child or a teenager but I I was schooled and nourished by these two immigrants you know my father was Spanish but uh my my father and mother both uh struggle you know my in fact my mother was was sent from Ireland to live with a cousin in Ohio at the start of the Civil War in 1921 and meanwhile she met my dad whom she called the the handsome spard and so they started raising a family nine boys and one girl I was a Seventh Son uh but it was a natural progression to uh you know we were Democrats of course we you know uh Roosevelt the uh Truman Democrats and and eventually of course the Kennedy Democrats but there was just this it was taken for granted you were you were Union if you could be I founded a union where I started the union when I was a boy at the local Country Club you know you were a caddy I was a caddy yeah and you started a cat's Union I started a cad Union in 1954 yeah and it didn't last I mean it lasted about 72 hours I got fired it was the first time I heard the phrase you're on private property hit the road but the the lessons I learned uh in in that uh situation where lifelong you know that you've got to you you've got to choose sides you you you cannot not choose sides and and be honest with yourself it it never mind what anyone else thinks about you it's how you think about yourself so yeah I was an activist without calling myself an activist I was just I was living in times that I was very aware of and I I had an opinion about them and I showed it with the way I lived and the way I act at least I tried to it didn't always succeed but um yeah that those were uh very formative years and I caded from uh 1949 until I left home in 1958 uh so the caddy thing didn't work out it didn't work out but I still know how to do it I I love the fact that uh Martin Sheen has never been arrested uh because it's always always that's true yeah but uh romon has been arrested any number of times oh yeah for his activism how many have you lost count I I was keeping I silly but it was so I there was there were so many issues that were so vital through the particularly the 80s and the 90s uh whether it was nuclearism war particularly the Gulf War which I was very involved in protesting against the first Gulf War as well as the second one but uh whether I was protesting homelessness or Injustice or racism or whatever it was whatever issue I was involved in uh I never anticipated changing anybody the only one that changed was me and I think that that's as it should be the idea of being associated with a movement or a cause and be counted on to promate that publicly and to engage in that to in influence others is not my concern I think that the the best way to describe it for me is when I went to a demonstration I never looked over my shoulder I didn't know if anybody was following me and Frank I didn't care I was there for me to get me there was the greatest work because I'm such a coward I would look for the cameras or the women and the children I'm serious because that was the safest place to be in a demonstration they were the least likely to be V victimized and yet you've been arrested a multitude of times so apparently you haven't been very good at finding Safe Haven we you've been arrested and you've been jailed and you've had to do community service can you talk about that and and in you know a place like St Joseph's Center where you CH did you choose where you would do your community service no I was I had we I was protesting the death of the Jesuits in El Salvador uh in all of the uh military American Military involvement in Central and South America and I'd gone there with Witnesses for peace and other uh non-violent peace organizations and um saw firsthand what was going on particularly in Nicaragua in El Salvador and uh so I came back and began to voice uh concern and urge people to become uh aware of what was going on down there and we would meet downtown at the laita and March to the courthouse and shut it down and so I accumulated 13 arrests and I had to appear in court before a very distinguished uh federal judge who was hearing these cases and she said uh Ramon because I'm arrested under Ramon uh it doesn't appear to make any difference if I put you in jail for all these arrests and and all your behavior on the line I said not likely said you're probably going to do it again aren't you I said I hope so she said very well would you do community service I will I said she sent me to St Joseph Center and I became the dishwasher at the bread and Roses Cafe just down the street it's a homeless kitchen uh and and so I spent 10 years there as a volunteer and uh yeah it it was the longest job I had until I got the westwing no it was longer than the westwing actually but uh yeah I only left it because of the westwing yeah I want to come back to something you said because it it it just tipped into my mind you're a boy and you were watching up on the screen and you knew you wanted to be this remember what you watched do you remember what films or what when you were small that that oh touch you I can't remember a lot of the films I saw as a child but I do remember uh pre-teen and teenage Humphrey Bard and all the tough guys you know at Warner Brothers yeah they were they were my heroes Spencer Tracy particular I love Spencer Tracy uh James Kagney was uh he was my chief uh Idol and then one night somebody told me that I had to see this guy uh in a film that uh was playing in the local theater and it was only going to play another night I think it was and it was East of Eden and uh that was the life changer I I couldn't leave the theater in those days they would run two features and uh they'd run them twice in the evening along with news reels and cartoons and I sat through uh the other movie and cartoons the news reals everything to see it again I couldn't leave the theater I was stunned and I was just stopped in my tracks that something happened that I'd never seen before and and it was James Dean and it was like he transcended the acting into Behavior he wasn't acting it was like when he walked out of a scene you wanted to where'd he go you know you kind of look off as if you could see outside the frame to see where he was what he was doing because he wasn't acting it was behavior and that made all the difference well the other person a lot of people describ in those terms from that time was Marlon Brando yeah who you would come to know much later in a very different context yeah yeah Marlon Brando was of course a a hero of James Dean and so yeah I was I long before I worked with Marlon I adored him I his work you know uh and then when I get a chance to work with him it was uh it was gratifying because he was uh he he was extremely disarming he was very funny and uh and he was very caring and sweet and uh I I just uh I just adored him you know I worked with him on Apocalypse Now and he was only on the film for four or five weeks but he lived nearby and so I saw a lot of him uh on when we weren't working he'd come down and join us for dinner and he was someone who in the 1963 there was a March on Washington Dr King and he was one of the group from Hollywood who came out yeah did you talk about any of that and do you remember that March do you remember that I remember the March on Washington very well in 1963 we were still living in New York at that time and so there were a lot of people coming down to Washington from New York I didn't go personally but I was sure aware of it and we I I knew Marlon was a part of it uh did you come to know Dr King at all I I did not know Dr King I saw him once and it was a very auspicious meeting in 1965 I was on Broadway in a show and U Selma happened in March of 1965 and I talked to my colleagues in this play we thought we've got to do something so we went to to the manager and said we'd like to do a benefit for the southern Christian leadership conference and Reverend King and to the Widow of Reverend James ree a young uh uh Minister who went down from I believe I believe from Michigan and he was killed in in Selma and the manager said well all right you can do the benefit but you know our theater is only 600 seats you won't make a Nick go and he said why don't you go and or Jack Albertson said let's go talk to Sammy Davis he was around the corner in Golden Boy a big hit musical so it was a sday mattina uh and we went over to see him between shows and we told him what we wanted to do we wanted to answer uh Selma and Samy said uh the the only thing I don't like about that idea is that I didn't think of it he said let's organize it and it became known as Broadway answer Selma and gosh everybody on Broadway at the time was part of the show Barbara stron was doing funny girl she came mauce valer was doing a oneman show he came Alan Arin was in and her laughing he came it was just enormous and the show was going beautifully and Sammy was out on stage at this one point and he said ladies and gentlemen Dr Martin Luther King Jr and he point and there was Reverend King was in a box it it was like if he if he fell forward he would have fallen on the stage that's how close he was and we were all looking we didn't know he was there and it was like and the audience went great and they stood up and and they shouted and screamed and applauded it went on and on Reverend King got up and and he took a little bow and and he sat down and they weren't having it they screaming hard and he got up again he said oh you know please sit down KN and then he sat down again they ain't having it they're screaming hey you got up a third time he was and he and he just you know and he just plated with them to sit down and okay since Sammy was out uh singing at the start of the second act and he was on stage singing and I I stood in in the light because I had the queue uh Mr chaler to go out and the light from the stage was shining on me you know I felt this light and and and uh and I looked over kind of like that and I looked again and Reverend King was standing about 10 feet away and he was by himself I couldn't see any guards or anybody with him and my heart started pounding and I thought the first thought I had was I didn't realize how small he was and and I wanted to shrink because I was looking over the top of his head and I thought no he's 10 feet tall and I said oh my god there he is and it seemed like a full two or three minutes pass it was probably no more than 30 seconds Sammy came off and just walked right over to him and escorted him uh out the back stage door and I never met him so uh let that be a lesson to you there you were using your Artistry to help raise some money and raise awareness and is that the first group activity remember you're 25 at this point that you were doing something like that was that that no I we were uh I was very aware in the the early 60s in New York uh of the Civil Rights Movement I mean it was and by 65 it was international news so I was aware of it and uh I had grown up in a a culture of racism uh you know there were very few uh I went to an all boys uh Catholic High School uh and there were just a few Lads one of them was my closest friend who John Crane who's dead now and got rest him but he was our best man and and uh you know I I knew what racism was and I had difficulty with with my name because there was a lot of prejudice against Hispanics but it it was the Puerto Rican Community you know they they were the blame for everything so they were the new immigrants they were Americans you know but people thought of them as being you know from somewhere else you know from Mars who knows where but Puerto Ricans were responsible for all the problems that was a racist attitude in New York at the time and so uh uh I was considered with my name uh uh Puerto Rican but so if I'd be on the phone or in any other context without seeing my mug uh they I was considered a a Puerto Rican so I said I thought oh God I got enough trouble trying to get a job he was an actor so that's why I chose Shane and the whole world wants to know how did you come up with uh Martin Sheen I I was fascinated with Bishop Folton J Sheen in the 19 50s there was no one on television more popular and he was really the first T evangelist he was the best public speaker imaginable I didn't think of him as a a preacher as more as much as an actor I thought wow look at that guy you know so to as much to honor his uh his presence uh I yeah I just started using Sheen The Martin came from Robert Dale Martin who was the casting director at and at CVS in New York when I first came there in 1958 I met him and he was very very encouraging to me so much of your choice of work you've chosen things including the way that reflect your values is that a conscious thing is that I would say yeah when I had a choice uh to um Infuse some of my um uh Talent into a work that spoke to social justice or to civil rights or to women's rights or to gay rights or uh dealing with with with Illuminating uh an unpopular uh reality yeah I I always chose that but I didn't always have a choice if I wanted to make a living in this business the very few things that I actually did that were uh from the heart and the pocket book that spoke to how I felt about an issue uh you mentioned the way yeah that was a family affair that was written for me by my son Amelia and frankly it is the most satisfying thing I've ever done in my professional life and to this day uh if I could get an another film like the way I would gladly do it but you know we don't always get these choices very often we we're giving given uh material that we that doesn't really speak to our hearts or anyone else's that it's just entertainment or fluff or nonsense and so that we do it in order to not have to uh go back to the car wash or the golf course to cat you still you still got the other social security card so you could but but Martin let's be clear there is a part for which you will always be Associated and that is when you were our president uh and as I understand it it wasn't supposed to include you most of the time it was to be about the people in The West Wing but not the president so can you can you talk a little bit about that moment in time when this all happened yeah well The West Wing came at me like a West Wind uh I I wasn't prepared for it I I had uh a relationship with Aon sorin the brilliant writer from a film a few years earlier the American president so uh I was aware of his talent and his presence certainly and then it was the spring of 1999 they came with an offer to play the president in the West Wing but it there was only one scene in the uh pilot and they asked me would I be uh comfortable playing the president in just a few episodes maybe four tops five in in a season of 22 Episodes so that would be like one of the time would you do that and I said of course I'd do that so I signed on and then the pilot was made and I had a feeling that once the network uh saw that set they're going to want to know who works in that office and I was right and so I came back and signed on just like all the other folks in the in the show did and I I had a seven-year run in the Oval Office and it was one of the best times of my life we went from the Clinton Administration into the first Bush second Bush Administration of Bush Jr and we became like a uh a parallel universe if you will because here was this rather Conservative Republican very Brash young president and here was the old you know liberal Democrat Bartlett on the other side so every Wednesday night we got the equivalent of a uh either a fireside chat or a address from the over office from Mr Bartlett so yeah it was the most gratifying uh thing to to have done that for all that time with all those wonderful people the fact is that and you you laid it out right during that time that second year we had Bush VOR we we saw the country as the century turned we saw the country turn and a lot of people felt like uh fairness had gone out the window uh and and was lost to us did you have that sense of having an effect and then it being reflected back to you from how people were responding to you playing that part yes I think all of us on the west wing for those seven seasons had a sense that we were doing something that was much more than our you know a job in our career and much more than even a story about a president that we were we were contributing ideas and possibilities and we were we became and we were very aware of it at the time and it gradually even became more and more uh uh clear to us of what an inspiration we were particularly to young people and especially young women and uh you know uh the uh the the women in the show the regulars particularly uh Allison Janney was a great source of inspiration to a lot of women and we were getting letters from kids in college and high school who were changing their uh uh choices for uh you know career and they were going into public life or law or social justice they were becoming involved and they were being fulfilled and inspired by a lot of the uh the uh energy that we were uh uh sharing on The West Wing so that was the most gratifying part even today I I still get letters from people who had never seen it before they were born after uh uh we were on the air and so they wouldn't have seen it as small children and they became aware of it when they were locked down during the pandemic and it became uh a whole new world for them and and some of them in fact a great many of them saw it twice they ran because you remember the dialogue is very much much like I'm talking right now it was very fast it was hard to hear what do he say what do he say and you couldn't rerun it in those days you know there's an episode that I've waited a long time to ask you about two Cathedrals oh yeah one of the most uh talked about episodes of the entire series was the one called two Cathedrals which took place in the National Cathedral in um Washington DC where the president's secretary had been killed in a car accident and he he attended the funeral but he was going through a very uh difficult period of loss you know they it's the most uh um I would say the most vulnerable he was in the whole series and it it it it was climaxed in that scene in two Cathedrals and he asked uh Secret Service to clear the uh church he he was going to have it out with God it's the only way I can describe it but he was going to do it in Latin I asked Aaron once why did you choose Latin and he said because that seemed to be the language of God for a Catholic and as I grew up you know as an alar boy and so I I knew the church Latin for the mass and so I got that okay and so it it was not unfamiliar to me but it was an outrageous scene cuz I'm there in the middle of the National Cathedral alone yell y ing at at God and decided to have a cigarette to to Really uh get his goat and um and and and I did it and uh and I st stamped on the cigarette which was the worst thing to do inside a church um and I remember after we finished the scene Aaron was very pleased and very moved by it because you never know if something's going to work or not until you actually do it and you see it you you know and he said yeah he said I think it works and let's go with that and you know from the response that it did resonate uh with so many people because it was about loss it was about how is it questions Faith yeah and as I said you're I know you to be a man of deep Faith uh but I've always thought of you as Catholic with a small sea and and and in the Dorothy Day tradition of your faith can you explain what that is well I I you know I I remember one of my heroes was Phil beran Dan beran's Brother Dan was also uh one of my heroes but the brothers together had a very profound effect on all of us from the 60s and these were two Catholic priests that opposed uh the Vietnam War and uh burn draft cards and they went to prison Federal p pentary for a couple of years so they made the ultimate sacrifice and they were a great inspiration to all of us that you that if what you believe is not costly then you're left to question its value and so that that was really uh um what I tried to um live as much as I could whenever I protested or spoke out against some injustice I never expected that it was going to influence anyone I never believed that I was going to change anyone's mind I only did it because I could not not do it and be myself or at least the image I had of myself so it was a deeply personal commitment and I've always believed that if something is not personal it's impersonal if it's impersonal who cares so if I was to care about something it had to cost me something you've got to find a place a a way to unite the will of the spirit with the work of the flesh you got to put them together and so that you're not unbalanced you're not too much in one and not enough in the other but if you can do that then you your spirit has a has a has an opportunity to breathe on its own it's not forced it's not it's not it's not religion per se it's a Transcendence of religion because it's spirituality I'm a practicing Catholic I'll get it right I hope someday but I love the faith I have a lot of problems with the church it's male-dominated it's made a horrible bunch of mistakes over the centuries but the faith in it itself is very very nourishing and very important it's where I go to um to kind of to kind of claim the chamber in my heart that's the best way I know to describe it it's I know myself in this faith I I believe in the basic tenants of Catholicism and they make absolute perfect sense to me that as I say if what you believe is not costly then you're left to question its value and that's what I face every day of my life so I can't separate that from my family life my uh political if you will uh life my public life my uh uh artistic life in the movies or whatever I do artistically it's it's when I found the way to unite the will of the spirit to the work of the flesh then I went everywhere as the same guy and and experience the sense of joy that I never had before before I I was Catholic well I re I Recon converted in 81 so the last half of my life has been by far the most difficult because I was so involved in so many issues but it's equally the happiest because I know myself in that sphere and I don't anticipate changing anyone's life but [Music] mine

Channel: Life Stories

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Id: 2hPXRb8nssw

Length: 30min 27sec (1827 seconds)

Published: Mon Mar 25 2024