Manisha Thakor: Finding Your Enough

please stay tuned for important disclosure information at the conclusion of this episode hi and welcome to the Long View I'm Christine Benz director of personal finance and retirement planning for Morningstar Jeff is on vacation this week so it's just me today on the podcast we welcome back author and financial educator Manisha takor manisha's new book is called money Zen the secret to finding you're enough she's also the founder of money Zen a financial education consultancy in addition to her latest book Manisha is the co-author of two books with Sharon kedar on my own two feet published in 2007 and updated in 2013 and get financially naked which came out in 2009. prior to founding money Zen Manisha was vice president of financial well-being at Brighton Jones before that she was director of wealth strategies for women at Buckingham Strategic Wealth earlier in her career Manisha held positions at several Investment Management firms including faya's seraphim Sans Capital Management and Atlanta sasnoff capital Manisha is a chartered financial analyst and a certified financial planner she received her bachelor's degree in American studies from Wellesley College and her MBA from Harvard Business School Manisha welcome back to the Long View Christine it's always wonderful to get to chat with you well it's great to have you here and congratulations on the book we want to talk about the book in depth you talk about what you call the cult of Never Enough you have these great turns of phrases in the book can you describe what that cult is about absolutely um there are kind of three ways that I think about the cult of Never Enough in terms of defining it and the first is this feeling that no matter how much money you earn how many accomplishments you achieve or praise you receive it's just it's never quite enough to make you feel whole inside because the Finish Line keeps moving and then the second piece that kind of defines in my mind the cult of Never Enough is that you've subconsciously um embraced societal messages that are telling you that the answer to virtually anything that ails you is more do more be more and then the final component of being a member of The Cult of Never Enough is kind of this you know feeling where no matter how many times you try and put into practice things like gratitude lists and meditating and you know reading books on positive psychology you still feel like a human doing versus a human being um and the manifestation um the outward manifestation of being stuck in the cult can be anything from extreme workaholism to extreme perfectionism but the bottom line and the reason it's so detrimental to our life satisfaction is that it leads to a really toxic relationship with work money accomplishments and success yeah that comes through loud and clear in the book you know I feel like this concept of what's enough is coming up a lot in our cultural conversation of course Jack Bogle wrote a book called enough in 2009 but it seems to be coming up even more do you think it's covid related that people are thinking big thoughts about life and what they're doing in the wake of covid I love that you answered that because I've really been chewing on because you're right I mean this phrase what is enough this question it's being asked uh it's just floating through the Zeitgeist and so many manners yes I do think kovid played a role in it because it was like a snow globe for pretty much everybody it shook our worlds upside down and whenever you have that kind of change it causes you to ask questions um but I also think there's something else going on you know I I recently saw a clip um I think it was on Instagram reels where Jim Carrey was saying you know very few actors will say this but I'm done I'm not gonna make any more films I mean well you know maybe if something truly mind-blowing comes but I've got enough and you know you're seeing this with athletes who are saying you know what I have accomplished a lot and I'm ready to move on to the next chapter so I think it's this combination of being forced to rethink big issues realizing maybe what you might be missing um during covid where things were so shut down but also there's something else that's going on and I can't quite put my finger on it but I'm seeing signs of this questioning everywhere and maybe at the end of the day it's just exhaustion sheer exhaustion from being on this 24 7 hamster wheel of hustle culture right now you know sort of a follow-up question is I feel like maybe we've over corrected like there had been all this soul-searching you know in the depths of covid and people were you know spending a lot of time at home with their near and dearest and now it's like you know this Revenge travel thing I feel like it's been spend spend spends you know maybe we're going back in the other direction and you know just hopping right back on that treadmill yeah I do sense that and I think the reason is that the poll is so strong and the types of things that I observed happening during covid and the types of things that I'm seeing right now in Wellness at work programs are really well intentioned gratitudeless meditation focusing on positive psychology reading psych positive psychology books but the issue is that those things are are Band-Aids very useful Band-Aids but they're not addressing the core wound and that's why I think we're getting so swept back up into this you know business as usual um at the pace of speed of life because we're lacking a framework for thinking about and encouragement for thinking about why we're behaving this way and that's really why I wrote the book right and one thing I love about the book is that you share a lot of your own story it's woven throughout these bigger lessons for all of us so let's talk about your early career introduction to this Cult of Never Enough can you discuss that yeah well first let me just say I was really apprehensive about being this raw and candid in the book because I mean just societally we don't admit a lot of the things that I omitted and described in a very fine detail in the book but I did so because I felt that the book is very rich in research and studies and stats and in order to put those into context we we learn through story so it's my story but also the story shared by a lot of very courageous other people who reached out but you know in terms of my experience right out of business school I uh demand be at Harvard right out of business school I jumped into the institutional money management world I worked for an amazing man um down in Houston Texas he's passed recent leaves in his 90s named FIA seraphim he ran a business for 60 years and what happened was you know started off as an analyst and then became a portfolio manager and one of the industries I had been following was financial services and I realized that while we had a client base almost entirely of institutional clients corporations foundations endowments um and our minimum was sufficiently high that individuals you know it wasn't your average individual could not access our investment strategy which I felt really strongly was a powerful one and so separately managed accounts were just starting to Bubble Up and I went to fias and you know pitched the idea of what if we added this distribution Channel um and he said you know go for it I'm not going to give you a ton of resources um you'll be the resource but go for it and so for 10 years I was you know traveling 40 weeks out of the year and you know sometimes doing up to five or six client updates or client pitches and overseeing the operations team and and I One Day found myself on a plane I remember distinctly I was sitting in seat 1B I had my paper strewn all over the place and I just had tears down my eyes from exhaustion I just had no idea so I'm away from Houston to New York how I was gonna do all of the meetings I had scheduled in the next 48 hours and a woman back in the fourth row who I'd seen um at a variety of different professional conferences just perfectly quaved and just so elegant and she came up to me and opened this beautiful silver pill case and and handed me these three yellow tablets and told me take this just to have to start and I did and in retrospect you know I didn't even know what it was I was taking that's how desperate I was turned out it was Valium and it it calmed me down but that's when I really I I view that as my initiation into the cult of never enough because I was willing to do anything it took to just keep doing more and build the business as big as I can and make it successful and and make fires proud and I feel like it all really came to a head there and I was living in the cult of Never Enough before that but this was really the AHA of the manifestation right so it was a combination of workaholism and you know accolades and financial rewards So eventually you did decide to sort of head down a road where you looked into what was going on and and through therapy it sounds like you concluded that shame and what you call small T traumas were at the root of your own workaholism and you know your inclusion in this cult so can you walk through the connection which you outline in the book between not fitting in as a kid and your extreme commitment to work and just being excellent at work absolutely I go through the Gory details in the book but I'll just summarize by saying between fourth grade and sixth grade I was now what they would call bullied and you'd think okay as an adult like that's three years out of your life but research shows that um literally these small T traumas these things that happen to us can have physical about you know the National Institute of Health for example talks about how they can have physical and emotional damage to self-esteem well into our adulthood and a large body of scientific research indicates that childhood traumas can lead to workaholism and more severe traumas in childhood to depression and substance abuse but one of the other things I just found fascinating in my case was that it wasn't something that I thought about all the time and what happened was the way I dealt with feeling ostracized from my peer group and made fun of was that I got rewarded in class for my academic performance teachers would praise me and then my grades would feel like accomplishments and so I moved into junior high and high school and there's no bully laying there but I continued to hang on to this chasing after rewards to feel worthy um and you know I ended up valedictorian in my high school and then I I went off to Wellesley College and did the same thing the grades were my source of self-esteem and then you know I'm I moved into the work world and what becomes your metric their money and promotions and accolades and so you know this early trigger may seem so small but you can see how you know it led to different behaviors which underneath them were a desire to fit in like that little girl who didn't fit in and you know that was my manifestation there's an interesting a longitudinal study of American Canadian and British college students they observed them from 1989 to 2016 and it found that extreme perfectionism can lead to all kinds of mental health consequences including workholism anxiety and and so forth and so the main point is our brains aren't fully formed until we're 25 and so these things that happen even seemingly small things can embed and drive you know Decades of adult Behavior and the last thing I'll say about this is I've talked to a variety of executive coaches who deal with really high level professionals one told me at least 75 percent of her clients had some degree of a small T trauma that was one of the factors driving them but also simultaneously limiting their success and uh another one he told me that it was a hundred percent um of his high performing client base that had this as one of the elements and just because you should never say this is the last thing I'll say because you always think of something else um I will say I want to emphasize that it's not just small T traumas there are three other factors that I identified social cultural and evolutionary biological factors and everybody has them in different combinations that can drive this Behavior or put further fuel on the fire so to speak yeah because it's true our culture very much rewards a lot of the things you're talking about rewards hard work rewards accumulating you know great possessions and all that stuff so it's a very hard thing to jump out of you don't get any credit for having sort of a rich inner life right like it's in the outside world but I mean we literally judge people's insides by people it's outsides um there was a study in India that I found fascinating they had created a job applicant name or June and one of them the resumes and the descriptions made him sound wealthy and from a very successful family and a very strong academic background um the other candidate portrayed the same kind of academic record and level of intellectual success but was described as coming from a background of poverty and scarcity and recipients of the resumes assign much higher value to the first arjune rather than the second and so you know I think we all kind of know it God really that we often judge people's insides but they're outsides but I mean studies show this is you know a global phenomenon so you discuss sort of your Evolution on all of this and your decision to try to remove yourself from the cult but one of the pivotal moments was when you're sitting there hearing about your financial situation basically hearing that you were financially set independent at the age of 50 or pre-50 and yet internally you still felt like it wasn't enough so can you talk about that as kind of a light bulb moment for you to think about how you could grow other parts of your life absolutely I reserve my career on the institutional side services and then the last 15 years on you know I guess you might call it the retail the high net worth the financial advisory side and what happened was I was working for a wonderful wealth management firm Brighton Jones and one of the things we did for all prospective clients was map out a vocational Freedom analysis as part of our client prospecting process and the way it worked is that you would sit down with an advisor and they would run through a variety of different questions about your life and what money meant to you and where it came from and what you had and then run the numbers to see how close you were to vocational freedom and I had a prospective client who was very very private and didn't want to share her numbers so I decided Well you know what I'll just put it out there get financially naked and we ran the analysis on my numbers but we also did the interview on me and as I'm telling the story of you know I graduated from undergrad I borrowed thanks to my parents I did not have student loans but I borrowed two thousand dollars from my parents for first month last month rent paid it back in six months and every other dollar I earned myself and as I went through the exercise and we got to the Monte Carlo portion I'd run these numbers myself you know a bajillion times but you know the answer showed you know I can live to a hundred and significantly increase my spending because I I really live a fairly simple life and you know my odds of running out of money are like you know 0.0001 and I just burst into tears because I had never linked together those numbers which I knew to be real but always kept thinking Never Enough never enough with the human story of what it took to get there and you know some of the other questions that went along who are the people you care about how you know who are the friends that are close to you what are the hobbies that you love and and you know my answers to them were silence and that's when I realized that I had achieved this level of Financial Health at the expense of having any emotional wealth so yeah I think that you talk about that very well in the book this idea of you know sort of two ledgers right you've got your financial health and your emotional wealth and people may have over corrected in many cases in the realm of Financial Health and put that first at the expense of their emotional wealth so how did you aim to sort of fix that for yourself here's here's I went on a journey I went on a two-year Journey that you know I started off as a research analyst in the industry and so I dove into the research I was really curious how did this happen how did I essentially lose three decades of my life to work at the expense of everything else and more importantly how the heck can I get out of it and so I dove into multi-disciplinary research and identified that there really are four core pieces that lead us into this direction as I mentioned personal issues small t traumas or societal issues cultural issues evolutionary biological issues everybody is influenced in different proportions but the understanding of those factors is 80 of the solution and so you know people constantly want to ask me what are your top three tips to getting out of the call what are the top five ways that you can reach monies and and it doesn't work that way most non-fiction books spend the first one quarter of the book describing the problem and three quarters of the book giving you the how-to tips this book is the opposite because the solution is understanding the origin of the problem and so in my case it wasn't solely small T traumas there were all of the other factors were in there as well in varying degrees but probably the biggest takeaway I had was that I had spent all of my working years optimizing my behaviors my life to maximize the equation self-worth equals net worth and that's a pretty sick way to live it leads to some really toxic behaviors around work and money and success and you know a lot of people might look at that and be like Oh greed what's wrong with that woman in my case the net worth represented the freedom to be able to extract myself from any situation where I felt as awful as I did during those bullying years it also meant the freedom to help people I love my family I'm half Indian and there's a very strong emphasis on intergenerational care especially with elderly parents and so I mean there were a variety of things driving it that had nothing to do with stuff but there also was plenty of stuff I bought that I loved right um but what I came to realize was that that equation self-worth equals net worth gets you nowhere because there is no Finish Line so my research led me to discover a new mental model mental rubric um mental mindset whatever you want to call it equation Financial Health plus emotional wealth is what leads you to what I call Moniz and that place where you have calm confidence and clarity about both the role money plays in your life and the relationship that you have to money and so that ultimately is the answer learning how to reallocate your time so that you have both Financial Health and emotional wealth so it sounds like a sort of understanding the specific factors that have fed into getting you into whatever place you're in now is crucial which is why you discuss some of those factors in such detail I want to talk about some of those um and you reference stuff so one of the things you talk about in the book is what you call counterfeit Financial culture can you talk about what that means and and what you think is stoking it oh yes so um counterfeit Financial culture is a huge driver in this having a Never Enough mindset and the idea there is really that we are identifying our we have a set of beliefs where we judge ourselves and others on bogus barometers of our value as a human being and I think about it in two different ways um one would be flawed self-worth anchors which would be external possessions symbols accomplishments titles that give us a false sense of our self-worth and what we think is that those things those anchors will lead us to be more happy and successful and fulfilled because others are seeing these and and mirroring those thoughts back on us and then the second one which I think is the most Insidious one these days is what I call false Financial comparisons where we are comparing ourselves to either our neighbors or much more dangerously to the images that we see on TVs and in movies um again I go in this into detail in the book but just to summarize pick any TV show you watch and right now it happened to be binging on the five uh seasons of SWAT on Netflix and you know so these are highly trained LAPD officers but when I look at their homes the size of their their homes do not make sense with the incomes that those positions actually pay and yeah I see the same thing on legal dramas where you'll see an assistant who's wearing clothes that are exquisitely tailored and of very expensive Fabric and has no frizz in her hair even though this show is taking place in one of the most humid cities in America and so back of the envelope what I've estimated is that almost all the time the images that we see would require the characters to earn 30 to 50 percent more than the jobs that they are portrayed as having pay on average and so this is really dangerous so we we judge ourselves in each other by possessions and then we're seeing images of people that you know are quote just like us living these bigger lives on TV constantly in movies and then you ask you know what causes this easy access to credit I mean starting in the 70s you know with the plethora of financial products available to us it's not hard to buy more home or car than you can afford and to Finance on plastic more lifestyle than you can afford so that's what I'm referring to and to me that is you know when I think about the four factors that's really the societal piece and that's the one that really is pushing us to earn more so we can buy more so we can be more in that kind of judgmental unrealistic framework right another one you talk about is is hustle culture it sounds like this was very much part of your life the idea that you need to be constantly go go going in order to be successful do you think covet improved things on that front or did it get worse what did the data show about that so you know it varies there are some individuals for whom this did get a little better but for so many people the reverse happened which is they lost the Blurred Lines between work and home and you know whether it was a commute that delineated the end of your day or the after work workout that you went to the gym to do or taking your kids you know to a lesson or a sporting practice those kind of rituals that helped us deconnect from work went away and so many of us got pulled more into hustle culture than we ever had before um and so I think that you know we've got a lot of we glamorize working hard you know there's the Elon Musk nobody ever changed the world on 40 hours a week kind of concept or you know when Melissa mayor was um CEO of Yahoo she was talking about you know how many extra hours you can squeeze out of work if you can optimize the amount of liquid you drink so you don't have to take as many bathroom breaks you know I mean like that's underlying all of this and the rise and grind crush it toil glamor um as the New York Times has referred to it has led to something that the Atlantic writer who I I just love his readings encourage people to follow him Derek Thompson says is that you know in the past Century the American conception of work has shifted from jobs to careers to callings and from necessity to status to meaning and you know the problem with that gospel is it tells us your dream job is out there so never stop hustling and that's a blueprint for Spiritual and physical exhaustion yeah so I guess a question is what are the signs that it's time for a change that you're on this treadmill you need to get off or at least slow it down and I wonder how people can be preemptive about that like I think sometimes people wait until there's a Health crisis or some you know they get divorced or something really bad happens in their life before they start doing some soul searching about all this from work and you know you're out you're taking a hike you're on vacation you're sitting with your kids watching Frozen for the 14th time um and your mind is drifting to work constantly another is another very clear one is it's affecting your relationships your spouse feeling like you don't have enough time together your kids you know saying you know Mommy why are you always traveling why can't you be here or daddy the same thing and then you know the one that oftentimes slams us into the wall is that we get sick you know the the easy answer to how to prevent it is to adopt a mindset of valuing emotional wealth and thinking about I mean there's some wonderful sheets you can find on the internet if you just Google values exercise where they list like 100 different values on a piece of paper and you Circle 20 that means something to you and then you narrow it down to 10 and you ultimately identify like the top three or five that you want to be your North Stars guiding your activities and when you have a sense of that you know whether it's family or self-care or or Community or whatever those values are that can help you preempt but again I cannot emphasize enough in the absence of understanding the four core factors that lead to this and your relationship to the four core factors preempting can be very difficult and once again that's where I went on this journey because I had tried all of the other stuff and it wasn't working you know people would tell me to take a vacation I would force myself to go to a spa but you know what it didn't help I hopped on my computer um I did work I took conference calls and so one way I have come up with for people to kind of assess where they are on this spectrum how deep they might be heading into this cult it created a quiz and you can find it at money zenquiz.com it's just seven questions they're fun um it's not deeply scientific but it is a remarkably qualitatively accurate wake-up call if you are like I was falling down this rabbit hole so one interesting thing you noted in the book was that even when you made it a priority to downshift and and focus more on being and a lot less on doing you still found yourself like sort of looking at someone else's career gains for example and saying gosh they they did that you know that sort of thing it's hard to completely disconnect right you know it is and part of it is just raw human nature right I mean jealousy I mean there are all sorts of things that throughout the years philosophers have given us wise words on how to deal with them greed Envy ego and you know I saw several of my close girlfriends become CEOs of significantly sized Asset Management firms uh the guy who sat in the row in front of me in Business School uh Andy jassy is now the CEO of Amazon it's hard to not compare yourself to these people who have risen into very significant corporate jobs and I mean I will tell you personally I went through a period of just feeling like I had a gigantic L you know for loser tape to my head as as they're progressing and it took me a while child to really remind myself some people were meant to work in that way it brings them deep engagement and life satisfaction and you know I'm not cut from that cloth I hate managing people and um I I think about myself as kind of a sniper if you will I love solo tasks where the outcome is very clearly defined and you know I really had to work myself through the jealousy the envy and the quieting of my ego I wanted to ask because you emphasized this in the book but I just want you to talk about it because you're not saying that Financial wealth and having Financial Security isn't important you've written whole books about this you're just saying it's not the only thing yeah I mean let's just be honest about it uh you know people say money can't buy happiness but the absence of money will absolutely generate extreme anxiety stress and fear and unfortunately wide swaths of our population are in that bucket they're making minimum wage working two to three jobs in an environment where you know culturally we have lack of safety nets or different safety nets than perhaps other countries this book unfortunately is not geared at that population it's geared at you know two-thirds of the bell curve that are making a living wage but what I'm saying is really that if you look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs essentially achieving Financial Health which I would Define as you know meeting your expenses while having some money left over feeling in control of your overall Financial picture feeling financially secure now those are not terms that require that you have a seven digit net worth um you can achieve those things at any income level through you know an understanding of the Tactical financial literacy and education skills that I have spent years talking about but the point is Financial Health when you achieve it it gives you the foundation where you can now move further up Maslow's hierarchy of the needs to self-actualization and life Satisfaction by being able to invest in your emotional well-being and if you spend all your time just focused on building that Financial Health and saying I'm going to enjoy that emotional well-being later actually you will be less happy as that Financial Health continues to come in and I know I'm giving a very wordy answer but let me continue on with just one very interesting study that has just come out you know for years we heard seventy five thousand dollars is the amount you need to have to be happy and anything beyond that doesn't make you happy and you know that's been out for well over a decade so you can inflation adjust that make it a bigger number but most people rolled their eyes especially if you lived on the east or west coast um because it's not always easy to raise a family um but a recent study out of Penn indicated that yeah that is a flawed study but not because the number is too low but because it doesn't incorporate the fact that if you do not have a foundation of emotional well-being a solid sense of enjoyment separate from money once you reach a certain level of income and I don't think you can put one number on it it's different for all of us but once you reach a certain level in the absence of that emotional well-being more money will not create more life satisfaction and I ironically came across that study after my manuscript was turned in and that the book was already being sent out as galleys to early reviewers and it made me so excited because it was the first actual research study conducted rigorously according to you know academic standards that you know showed that Financial Health Plus emotional wealth are not only interlinked but turbocharge each other so yeah sticking with that you talk about how and you speak to groups about how to balance Financial Health alongside their emotional wealth you shared what you think is a clarifying question that you share with audiences that talks you've given can you talk about that yeah one of the and I've been doing this for over a decade now and I have people write down on an index card anonymously the answer to this if you receive 10 million dollars today after tax and you also receive a diagnosis that you have exactly 10 years left to live so you don't have a financial constraint but you do have a time constraint what would you stop and what would you start and it is amazing um I have hundreds of these index cards now and almost uniformly people say I would stop work and or I would stop worrying and I would start spending more time with my family and friends I would engage in my hobbies I would travel learn a language play a musical instrument volunteer give back to my community and you know so then the question becomes what's stopping you from doing those things right now or at least doing some version of them right maybe downshifting work and emphasizing the goals right I mean spending time with your family doesn't mean you have to abandon your career right it may mean that you you know set aside a certain amount of you know many people listening to this are in professions that historically have long hours and you know many people may with children have to do some work in the evening in order to leave work in time to kind of be there for you know whether it's School pickup or bedtime so what I'm saying is if family is important to you be present during those hours um you want to learn a new language we'll hop on Duolingo and do five minutes you know when you need a mental break between projects that work um and so there are a lot of different ways to incorporate these things and to me it's like flossing your teeth I'm embarrassed to say it wasn't um probably until I was in my 30s that I regularly flossed my teeth after hearing my dentist say if everybody floss their teeth you'd have no business and once I started doing it I mean literally I cannot Envision going to bed without flossing my teeth same and so yay we both have good dental hygiene um the point is by adding these things in identifying what are the things that feel like emotional wealth to you it starts to build a muscle and you know just over the the times that we've had we've been able to just chat on a personal level you know I love coffee houses and so for me you know emotional wealth comes to me from being able to spend time in a coffee house for two hours with you know a great iced coffee or pour over listening to Jazz and journaling or or reading a book and so these don't have to be huge things um but they start building up your comfort with spending time in this way so my last question Manisha relates to relationships which you really emphasize in the course of the book is they're crucial for finding emotional wealth so can you talk about that and you wrote something that I thought was really insightful you said we have to give ourselves permission to connect with others in a way that does not involve competition and it it made me wonder do you think that sort of even if we're not acknowledging it we are kind of competing with others sometimes when we relate to them you know yes I do I mean I think part of it is again human nature We compare ourselves to each other and social media hasn't helped that right because you know it's made us all curators of our own magazine of our life and you know we're putting out the Highlight Reel but I think that what happens is a new specially for those of us who are balancing precariously perhaps on that fine line between work engagement healthy enjoyment of our job and workaholism and never enough thinking um is that you can end up with connections that are transactional you know and I realized when I was having kind of my wake-up call that you know over the years it had gotten to the point that the only holiday cards I received were from my immediate family people I paid um to you know work with me and or different points when I've not been running my own business it's been you know colleagues in a corporate sense and I really noticed that you know I have these close tight relationships when I'd be at one firm and then I'd move to the next firm and we'd stay in touch for a year or two and and then it would just stop other than a you know comment on their LinkedIn post and the reason connection is so important um one of the experts I interviewed Mary leverde who spent years working as a director of a hypertension Center at the University of Colorado and what she found between healthy and unhealthy patients was what she ultimately summarized as people who when they are out of kilter ask to whom or what do I need to connect in order to move in a direction of slightly more happiness are the ones people who have that mind frame around it connection end up living a life And the tagline Mir La Verde uses is connection creates balance and so you know if there's one thing I would say to people it is you know what is the one tip you can walk away from this podcast from that actually will help you get closer to money Zen and that is to ask yourself to whom or what do I need to connect and it may be myself that maybe you know quiet it may be some time alone it may be a friend at maybe the gym you know there's a there's a lot of different answers to that and the corollary question would be when your brain starts coming back to you on that and saying I don't have time for connection I I don't have time to ask yourself whichever phrase is most effective to you why and you have to ask it at least five times why why and so you go deeper with your answer each time or it's I need to finish this project and the other phrase would be for what for what for what and eventually you know in my case you know I would do that and certain exercises and the answer ultimately would be to feel like I'm successful and then I'd realize like wait a minute like is that the definition is that the person I want to be is that the characteristics that I want to use to define success or do I want to go jump in the lake with my nephews and my niece um and um Splash around so yeah that's how I think of it well Manisha I've Loved this conversation there's so many insights here and also a lot of fun thank you so much for being with us today Christine you always ask the most insightful questions thank you so much for having me on [Music] thank you for joining us on the Long View if you could please take a moment to subscribe to and rate the podcast on Apple Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts you can follow us on Twitter at Christine underscore beds and at s youth one which is s-y-o-u-t-h and the number one George Cassidy is our engineer for the podcast and Carrie grechik produces the show notes each week finally we'd love to get your feedback if you have a comment or a guest idea please email us at the Longview at morningstar.com until next time thanks for joining us recording is for information or as of the date of recording such opinions are subject to change the views and opinions of guests on this program are not necessarily those of Morningstar Inc and its Affiliates while this guest May license or offer products and services of Morningstar and its Affiliates unless otherwise stated he or she is not affiliated with Morningstar and its Affiliates Morningstar does not guarantee the accuracy or the completeness of the data presented herein Jeff Patak is an employee of Morningstar Research Services LLC Morningstar Research Services is a subsidiary of Morningstar Inc and is registered with the U.S Securities and Exchange Commission Morningstar Research Services shall not be responsible for any trading decisions damages or other losses resulting from or related to the information data analyzes or opinions or their use past performance is not a guarantee of future results all Investments are subject to investment risk including possible loss of principle individuals should seriously consider if an investment is suitable for them by referencing their own financial position investment objectives and risk profile before making any investment decision [Music] foreign

Channel: Morningstar, Inc.

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Keywords: morningstar, investing, stocks, funds, etfs

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Length: 51min 45sec (3105 seconds)

Published: Wed Aug 09 2023