Managing Difficult Conversations at Work

[Laughter] we already have the audience let's get going exactly how do you go about advertising these uh these kind of forums we don't advertise them oh really wow yeah i'm new to clubhouse so learning the games of it russia everybody is new to clubhouse don't worry that is true statistical statistical fact true fact nine over ninety percent of clubhouse users have joined post feb post sorry post post the middle of feb wow so so you know every single almost every single person here is a newbie this is a this is a this is a network of absolute newbies and and you know just so you know anybody who has this like party hat at the bottom of the um of of the bottom of at the bottom of their profile anybody who has a party hat they are people who are who have joined clubhouse within the last week ah i see that's why okay so see i'm the newest of all you that's fine so um i actually opened the room uh even though we said we'll wait for some time because i realized that none of the ik folks can actually enter unless unless they are members of this club so we'll wait for a couple of minutes and then we'll then we'll get started people will keep streaming in as and when they as when they get the notification and and uh and stuff we are streaming through youtube as well yeah yep yes we are we've already started streaming it awesome well welcome youtube audience to this as well yes so roshi this is this is a little bit of a social experiment for us we are going to keep trying to do these rooms and keep trying to drive value for the audience and i i think as the as clubhouse grows the hope is that more and more people will come in and we'll be able to help more and more people okay what's up you all you all you're mute we can't hear you yes yes i'm i'm doing well thank you how are you ryan very good very good i'm just waiting to try and get the vaccine so that i can return to normal life have they opened up to folks that are under a certain age or what i haven't been following too much no i think it's very much it's very much by by age i think it's different in different uh locations as well right so guys sorry i realized that i had not opened the room i've just opened the room and so now now you know everybody's learning right we're all new exactly exactly and so and so i think folks are starting to starting to stream in now so we'll give it we'll give it a minute or two as folks keep streaming in and then then we'll get started what's up we need good to have you back thank you ryan good to be back we need some veteran of this room so is he in here and you've done two of these this is the second one yes mine beneath yeah you will soon find that the most talkative person in this room is soham [Laughter] i'm always the most talkative person in any room ryan it's very difficult for me to get a burden i'm i'm i'm never the smartest but i'm the most talkative well you said it i didn't yes yes of course i said it right of course and i proved the point by saying it right you're smart enough to see it all right nice you know what let's got it we have fox uh folks jumping in right all right for those of you who've just joined very warm welcome to all of you and my name is ryan soham and i run interview kickstart assam yeah you need to go on mute so some and i run run interview kickstart our our goal is to do these rooms once a week get people together have a good time and talk about topics that matter to people's careers we don't only talk about interviewing oriented topics in fact i don't think we've done a single interviewing oriented topic right now the goal is to just take on these really hairy difficult topics and have exceptional folks come on and explore these with us right today's topic is is as challenging as it gets managing difficult conversations at all our workplaces we have you all vinith he and richie all folks who are part of the instructor panel the coaching panel the the teaching panel at interview kickstart they all have extremely pedigree pedigreed backgrounds i'm going to ask each one of them to introduce themselves and i'm going to start with soham you want to say a quick hello and then we'll move to steph you all beneath he and richie and then we will jump right into today's conversation hey thanks ryan um hi guys my name is soham as ryan said ryan and i run interview kickstart for last about six plus years or so um and before that i was at box i happened to join them very early and i left at the time of ipo a good ride there um and and i also worked at some other companies uh in the past like ebay uh short strengthened microsoft as well in my uh as an intern and such as well i've also worked at not uh work at non-tech company as well so yeah that's that's roughly and and yes i've had uh lots of difficult conversations uh too from both sides but yep so i have never met somebody who has thought more about careers and in particular technical careers then soham it's unbelievable how much zohan thinks about this and the level of depth that he thinks about this ad and hopefully all of that is going to come out in our chats today steph what's up stephen hey ryan hey everyone i'm steph um i manage operations at ik and i am helping to build our community and so i'm helping to set up all of these rooms for for everyone so thank you stef steff's the backbone of everything that we do for the community so all the all the value that we are able to generate is thanks in in large sports to staff steph thank you so much for setting this up as well you all i think is going to have the most interesting things to say he is one of the most interesting people i've met man a few words but you all you want to take a minute to introduce yourself thank you ryan for the exaggeration um so my name is yuval so saw mentioned that he was at box so i was at box 2 that's how i met so i'm he he actually interviewed me at box and box box was my first startup so in my career i worked for big companies like microsoft google and airbnb and i worked on um in smaller companies startup site because when i joined box we were i think about 40 people so after some started ik he asked me to join ik as a teacher awesome you all very good to have you here uh vinith vinit has the unique distinction of being a student and an instructor now at ik vini thanks for showing up dude why don't you introduce yourself as well yeah sure thanks ryan uh my name is vineeth as ryan said i've been a student at rik i loved it a lot and i was fortunate to give it back and i'm now an instructor at ik i hope and love to participate in events like this as well i am right now a software development manager at amazon and before that i worked at bloomberg for 10 years awesome mini thanks for coming back again he ain't somebody who loves to teach um been teaching i think before ik as well and now now now at one of the fastest growing startups in the bay area just had a fabulous ipo here and welcome back thank you for the introduction ryan so hi everybody you're very excited to join this conversation uh my name is hing liu and i currently work at doordash on the ml platform side before that i was at linkedin and a little bit of uh before that at uber so yep awesome here and i read a tweet the other day that said every one of us who is from gen z has their emotions directly dependent to the speed at which the door dash food gets delivered happy to hear that and i saw that it had so many likes and retweets and i was like yeah that is so true i may not be gen z but i can completely relate to that feeling really yeah richie welcome you welcome to clubhouse in the first place and great to have you here uh you know with the party hat you are you are fairly new here but super excited you want to just just just say hi and and introduce yourself to everybody yes of course hello everyone i'm richie i have like vineet i have also been an ik student before and now an ik instructor and since there are too many boxes in this group i'm from dropbox not from box so i'm engineering manager we might have some difficult conversations on this yep yep so i've been at dropbox for three years now and before that i was at intel for almost 10 years awesome great to have you here hope to see you in many more of these uh so there you have it folks we have people from a bunch of really really interesting companies different backgrounds and obviously given the given the success that they've seen in their careers uh you know these this couldn't come easy now what we're going to do today is we you know there are a whole bunch of different um there are a whole bunch of different difficult conversations right they could be feedback conversations they could be promotion oriented conversation okrs sometimes difficult conversations with colleagues could be different difficult coaching mentoring conversations you know work is just a bunch of series of difficult conversations let's just put it that way right and and the goal today is to try and figure out how do you set yourself up um while having all of these we're going to do this in a little bit of a unique way today um i think soham is going to share to start off with a couple of conversations that he has had in his career which were in his mind quite challenging right um and he's going to actually put himself out there and ask the rest of the folks to to take a dig at him and and say whether he handles those conversations well or not it's a very interesting way to tee this off and then obviously we'll just get this into a free flowing discussion in about half an hour or so from now right maybe half an hour 40 minutes or thereabout we will we will open this to anybody who has and everybody who has questions so guys if you have questions just raise your hand right and we'll keep bringing you up to the stage i see we have a lot of successful ik welcome back folks of people who are in the speaker in the in the uh in the audience and also please guys show your love follow all the all the speakers and moderators on on stage you know richie vinith here and you all all new let's let's share the love and follow them um and with that let's get started so um over to you what are the what are the first set of challenging conversations you want to put out um yeah no thank you ryan for setting us up there is one that that that doesn't leave me uh actually uh and and then i'm going to put it as neutral as i can i would love uh i would love for for for people up here beneath he and richie ryan you as well you all to to tell me how how i handled it um so there was there was a time in my career when uh when i was a new manager and there was somebody with me who who was not performing super well at least it was borderline questionable and there was a bit of pressure on me to either either sort of make them make them sort of situate better or free up the requisition um and and so that was it being a new manager especially um it was just somewhat of a difficult conversation for me to to have um and and i broached it with him and i said uh dude you need to you need to buckle up um these are some of the things that are happening and and you can't go on for too long i mean it's in into nicer words certainly and then he said something he said um so i understand i need your coaching to get better at this and and and and i said dude i'm not your coach you just either perform or you don't perform and and we need everybody to perform right otherwise the company doesn't work again slightly nicer words i'm certainly paraphrasing um and and and and that and after that he did he almost shut down after that and any any went away without much conversation um in for for the longest of time uh this has stayed with me on this and as an em uh it has stayed with me how do you think i handled it that was a difficult conversation not just for me it was also a difficult conversation for him uh how do i how do you think i handled it how do you think he handled it um vinit do you have do you have any thoughts you all you have any thoughts again yeah yeah yeah yeah um yeah yeah let's go with you first we need you all he and richie let's go in that order okay cool uh so uh yeah this is definitely a tough situation and i think every manager have faith has faced it at some point or will face it at some point regarding your conversation like you mentioned couple of times you paraphrased it so i don't know exactly what you said but one thing kind of stood out that was that you refused to provide coaching to him right and i think that is not something i would recommend to anybody like yes we need to hold our engineers accountable we need to make sure that they're performing up to the level but at the same time we also want to be fair uh in terms of pointing out what are some of the areas that they are struggling with because of which the task is not getting done and like us we are at least from the outside perspective we know that or at least as a manager it's our job to know that okay this is an area where this person needs growth or needs some help and it is our job to provide them guide them not not spoon feed them a solution but guide them in in finding uh the right way to approach certain things and bridge that gap that's my opinion uh i would i have other thoughts also but i would let others speak okay so i have a quick question yeah go for it yeah quick question for soham before i uh provide some comments um why does it stick with you again so um it stuck with me because it was it was like a very subjective uh opinion in my head like am i as an as an em am i a coach or not i mean certainly not a topic for today but but but for for quite some time i didn't think myself as a coach i just thought myself as a manager more than a leader and a coach and i see and so and and and so one can debate that so both sides also in a fast growing company uh do you need ready-made products or do you have to like spend months and years coaching people and stuff but but that's why that's why it stuck with me um on this i gotta understand in a fast-paced environment right you you need to able to deliver so focus on your effort and energy to work with team member that actually can contribute so i can kind of think from that perspective um a few comments i can share like uh based on what you said that that person asked that you to coach him i think uh that's a good sign when when you are in that con uh you know difficult conversation with someone that's performing not at a level we expect if they are engaged i think that's a good sign that i look for if that person would like to improve uh if and then we see that i see that then i do want to help that person if that person is not engaged then definitely a different kind of conversation so i think coaching can can be in different capacities obviously we have a lot to do so we got to make sure we providing the right level coaching but not also sucking up all the times that the manager has you know because you know a manager has many many responsibilities so i'll stop there yeah he and i have a question for you before before we go to you all and then richie if you were the person asking soham this right so here was at the receiving end of this if you're the person asking for help how do you think he or she could have handled that question better and handled that because it would have been a very difficult conversation for them to come and say hey you know i'm not doing this but i need you to coach me to do this how do you think you could have handled it if you were the person asking for that help if i'm the person asking for that help like that person that's not performing well yes yeah um you know if if someone told me that i'm not performing well and i'm going to ask them for coaching i think that that person needs to uh work with the manager as well to figure out exactly what that that that he or she is not performing well uh so so you know we'll dig for more details about specific examples details about what kind of situations such as that person can either get coaching from soham or potentially go and get coaching from from other people so okay uh you are you wanted to respond to some sure on one hand i think that some did the right thing a manager i don't think can be a coach because a manager is in charge of evaluating the employee and you want your coach to be a little bit like your lawyer the guy that you can tell him or her everything so i think that what some should have done in that case was say that he as the manager couldn't be the coach but he should have suggested that a senior member of the team can be the coach and that is good both for the coach and for the coachee okay very interesting interesting interesting way to think about uh about getting a coach somebody similar like a lawyer you can tell tell them anything that's very interesting uh richie and before i come to you i want to just welcome to the stage satin satin is also one of my instructors um he's a director of engineering and nutanix welcome we'll come to you in a second as well uh richie what do you think yeah i think there are some very good points here uh but my take also is so coaching is not manager's job but providing the right conduit for it is manager's job right so if someone is saying hey i need help you try to find that help you might not be the person who can help but you find people who can help this person and then evaluate a couple of things i would say is why this was like a surprise to this person why this should not be a surprise when someone is not performing well you should have a leading indicators before it before you call out like your performance is low so that it doesn't completely come out as a surprise this is from not manager's point of view but that individual's point of view we have heard good stories on what managers should do but from the individual contributors perspective as well uh they should hear this early in the game then later to the stage where suddenly they are it's called out that your performance is low and the second point would also be if my manager personally my manager tells me hey i cannot help you i would start rethinking about my position in the company and in that team because i a manager is very important for career growth and if they are not looking for me and if i'm asking for help and they are not giving that me that help then i have to think about is this the right place for me or not okay very cool so um when you reflected on this obviously stuck with you for a while right how do you think you could have handled the situation differently did you think you entered the situation well no and how do you think you could handle this or handles differently or the person reaching out you handle it differently no certainly um certainly i did not handle this handle this difficult conversation very well um and it is like slightly nuanced as well because i was installed as a new manager on this uh on this and so i had very limited history with the person uh but even even otherwise i mean managers are not uh not uh at a privilege to make any sort of excuses um for it so so certainly not had did not handle well um i think i uh i should have i should have understood what he was trying to do uh what he's trying to say better like what kind of coaching does he need and such and if i'm the right person for it or if somebody else is the right person for it what is the timeline for it and such i should have uh i should have brought the previous manager into the picture as well and and had a conference between the three and say okay this is this is what the point is and this is where we are going so certainly i should have done those things which a manager is supposed to do um all right and and not just abruptly said that hey no dude i'm not your coach so that that is an instance where i i don't think i handle it well in in general uh what do you what do you guys think like when when a difficult conversation happens i mean there are lots of them like for example i was in a conversation with a very disgruntled customer um at one point or or like in calibration meeting as a manager uh there are difficult conversations that happen um what are some of the key ingredients of making a difficult conversation go well right uh if maybe cite specific examples you guys might have to say look i i tried this it went well because of x it did not go well because of y um uh and such in my case for example it just did not go well i was just simply not not thinking straight about it certainly sort of no experience handling it at all in but but a lot of reflection after that and and i'm doing better now but uh but anyways i would love to hear from from from all of you as well to say what are some of the things that you could have some instance of a difficult conversation you had at work and why did it go well or why did it not go well like that um let's see let me jump in here i i have an interesting interesting very interesting story yeah when i started my career right i started it was very unique i started my career in very high-end strategy consulting firm and i was very young i was 19 and a half so i was a good five years younger than everybody else at my level right and you know to say i didn't know the difference between my elbow and my ass would be an understatement of epic proportions right so i was i was all over the place but i think a couple of years in i had figured things out and i was doing pretty well but i had this project where i had a really tough manager right and this this was a very very tricky situation i had no clue how to handle it at the time so the project went very well i thought i had done a really good job and so did my client at that time however my manager didn't think that right my manager thought i had not done a very good job and it came as a big surprise to me so when when when he evaluated my performance on the project he actually came back saying that i that i needed improvement okay and this was a big big shock for me i actually walked into the room and i said hey you know i the client says i've done a really good job i think i've done a really good job and this was a little bit of a complicated situation because the manager and at that time was somebody who managed upwards exceptionally well and he he was known to give poor ratings to people below him and showcase that the work had been done by him right but anyway i went into the room and i said hey this is um this is not something that i expected and and i i think that um you know you should change this and he looked at me and he just sat there for a couple of minutes and he just said no i don't think so i i don't think we need to change this and this had a serious impact on my on my rating now in the same case one year later i was in the same position on another project right where where the manager had given me a good rating right but i thought i deserved an exceptional rating this time i went to the went to the conversation but i was i was experienced in in the previous conversation and so this time the conversation ended up going really well and i remember this very clearly because very similar kind of manager i would say two big points of difference between conversation number one and conversation number two in conversation number one i actually just went in without preparing i just went in because i thought it was it was my right and the manager had to do right by me i didn't go in thinking that okay you know there might be a different point of view i didn't plan that conversation well i didn't predict the range of responses that could come i just made a big huge assumption that my view was right right i think the biggest lesson that i learned there is two things one have a very specific goal for your conversation know what what i wanted out of it i actually had written down a whole bunch of points i planned the conversation multiple times i rehearsed the conversation and i knew that while i want the conversation to go in a particular way i can't quite predict how somebody else responds and so i need to be prepared for all sorts of responses and how to deal with it so i think just having that level of prep and being completely okay with confronting the other person without just jumping in is what made a really really big difference to me and so i think those are two or three key things that i learned preparing being the most important and knowing that there is a range of outcomes and being prepared for how to deal with each one of those and knowing that confrontation in a situation like that is okay it's not a problem i don't have to just like jump back does that make sense yeah it makes makes a lot of sense i think that that touches a very interesting point especially in engineering which is the world where i'm very familiar with many many engineers avoid confrontation any any kind of confrontation and that is actually not good that hinders hinders difficult conversations and one should not do that i think the other thing ryan your experience shows tells me is that there is also something to be said about data you go in prepared yes but not just with words you also go in prepared with instances and data around your own performance if it was a performance conversation or whatever it is and many people walk into this without any sort of data and so just a bunch of feelings yes that's absolutely right in fact just to you know bring everybody's memory back to the last time we did this room we had doris here who who is at netflix and previously at facebook she said something very interesting she said that she advises people at facebook and netflix both to keep a performance journal so you keep tracking down and writing down stuff that you that you've done so that when it comes to the conversation you have a track record of what you've been doing yeah so you're absolutely right i think keeping data very important yeah it's very important but i'll just add oh yeah yeah sorry richie go ahead yeah i'll just add one more thing on top of it is sometimes you can prepare but there are times when you suddenly get a shock right like you did you were not ready for the conversation and you suddenly got that information try to be not defensive like many times i have ruined the relationship and the conversation because i have something in my mind suddenly someone gave a answer and i was like no no this is not right it has to be done this way because blah blah blah instead of listening to what other person is coming up with and why they are asking for these type of or why they have come up with this solution and this is slightly different it is more technical like when someone comes with a technical solution and says no no your solution is wrong because i have those data points to prove and then you were not expecting it so instead of ruining your relationship you know just take a deep breath think about it and just say okay i will take these points come back to you later i will think about it and then let's have a discussion and then take that preparation time which ryan and suham is talking about for yourself uh to give yourself some time to prepare it rather than showing your emotions right away and ruining up everything once you say no and getting defensive yeah i'll add to that i think that that's a very key thing that richie mentioned is the word emotion oftentimes we got into this kind of conversation and when we we let our emotion takes over and when that happens we don't think straight we don't think rationally and therefore we might say things that we might regret later for example uh so managing the emotion is probably one of the most important things especially when the the conversation is really sensitive uh fyi there's a great book out there if people would like to learn techniques and approach to get better at this kind of thing it's called crucial conversation it's an extremely good book a lot of good practical advices if someone's interested in reading a book on this topic another other really really good book is a book called non non-violent communication it's a again very very good book to to have very difficult conversations with yeah and uh so can i if i may yeah something go ahead right yes i think and then you also i think wanted to add something go for it so a few few few points i will re-emphasize first of all ryan what you said that uh one of the speaker from past that she mentioned about keeping a log of what you achieved right and i had a couple of engineers in my organization they used to keep regular log and even after seeing them i also started keeping regular log on weekly basis because what happens is that sometimes your reviews in many companies it happens quarterly or sometimes every six months and a year and you are so much engrossed in your day-to-day work that sometimes you forget at when that those kind of conversations come you really forget what you have done right and so and also i have seen the engineers keeping track of you know if they got kudos from somebody outside the team or from some execs they even keep a log of all those things and they keep track of so that you can use those data point in those difficult conversations so that's number one and number two i mean uh what i've seen is setting expectation is also a very key thing right that what does it look what does your manager expect from you and what does success uh look to your manager from your point of view what what does he expect from you so if you know that in advance right little bit then you know that you know there are you will avoid the chances of getting into those difficult conversations right sometimes uh your manager is expecting something altogether different and what you are doing is all together different right and there is no there is a big disconnect right so i would say that from time to time it is always good to check that how you are doing right even if let's say if your manager is not bringing up that conversation you bring up the conversation that whether are you on track and uh is should you change your course of action or should you improve on anything [Music] okay very cool uh you are you wanted to add something earlier yes yes some was talking before about engineers that have problem in confrontation right confrontation but i want to talk about first level managers that have the same problem so sometimes the engineer the ic doesn't understand during the review period say the half a year or something like that that actually management is unhappy with him or not as happy as he thought they were okay and only finds it out in at the end of the period or from the manager's manager so i would say that for the ics be careful of your manager being a bit too friendly if because then it is quite possible that the manager is actually not as happy as it looks like and you will just learn about that later also note that difficult conversations i think we just happen to discuss in this context but they're not just about performance and performance reviews there's lots of other kinds of conversations which can be very difficult i'll cite one again in my in my experience this was a customer conversation and we had decided to increase our taste of the release cycles um and everything was going well until like one large customer came about and said you ruined everything for us because um because we pushed something more frequently than what they were expecting and it's not like we had pushed um or we have changed anything uh and any feature or any of that we have changed certain placements of buttons on the page and links and buttons had changed so just a visual changes had been made to a patient and they were expecting it to be pushed like every month or so and we we had switched like every week or every like twice a week release cycles and so so it went way live way earlier than what they had expected and they were really mad at us um first first of all i i didn't understand why they would be mad at us but by the time it reached me um because i was in the balls of engineering at the time like why would uh it's so so my manager comes to me and says oh do you want to handle this conversation uh this is a really mad customer is a fortune 500 company and and by the time it reached me it had already been a few days there should be navigating the entire system at this to to get to the right person and talk to that right person and some funky reason the right person happened to be me and i had very little context on this at all um i i i went into the conversation uh first of all i was quite worried i had never taken a conversation with a customer like that big and and and so the first step i did was to talk to my manager in more detail just like what is this customer why are they mad what's the point like he even didn't know like why aren't they mad exactly there was something to do with some some ui changes is the only thing i got out of it then but he said he said something really good um that actually made me feel comfortable it's it he said so don't worry about it i have had justice department mad at me this is just a customer right just just just go there do your best right now i didn't really understand the importance of that at the time but but once the entire episode was over i realized that just that one statement made me feel a lot more comfortable going and talking it what turns out this customer served served u.s army a certain part of u.s army and they were training u.s army on certain things based on certain documents that were uploaded in the product and they had created screenshots and they had created printouts on where the links and the buttons would be so that they would they would still be able to go through this if um if there were any sort of network issues and things like that or so there were some of their it it was it was actually just their process to do so and they would they were they were not like as tech savvy and they didn't assume that the products are going to be available all the time everywhere because of internet connection issues and such so the other other learning there was to really sort of just dig into why they are mad uh many many people actually don't do that like they just they just held into the conversation and they produce an opinion but letting the the customer speak letting them letting them voice their their exact situation why they are mad and then and then basically guiding them to actually their own thinking as well and then then i explained my positioning of why i moved to a very fast-paced release process and why it is going to help them a lot um that's when they settle down right to say yeah that that sounds fine looks like sort of it isn't that positive for us in in you as well so uh another learning there let me do two learnings from that that example one is that is that if you have someone who you can prepare for a conversation you can you should like like for example my manager like to told me something really simple but but help me quite a bit uh get it get put this into perspective and second is listen like listen and and and and don't just don't just always give in like that like because because you it is possible that the reason this is happening is is also because it is actually net positive and the other person simply doesn't understand it take the time to actually explain to the other person like that was that was the other learning out of it like that any any other examples um or any comments on that yeah just one small comment so um uh your example reminded me of a line from stephen covey's book uh seven habits of highly successful people i think one of the habit is seek first to understand then to be understood so many times like i'm guilty of myself of doing this is when you see that the conversation is difficult before hearing what the other person has to say you are putting up your defenses you are already preparing for the rebuttal but not hearing what the other person is saying and i think that's that's what you highlighted right now that understanding what what the other party is saying or the intention behind that or the impact behind that understanding that maybe taking notes or something and then providing your point of view or at least conveying that you understood their issue or their situation and here are your reasonings i think that is definitely uh a way that that works it's easier said than done but uh i completely agree with you yeah yeah like the other person is not dumb like true you know you can explain things to them you're absolutely right yeah sorry i think sometimes like just uh this is great like sometimes you just have to listen maybe you don't have any answer maybe there's some someone who is in front of is wrong completely wrong but you just listen empathize with them and after a while they will get back on track automatically just don't like coming back to emotions just start not showing emotions at that time just hear them all they want at that time is someone to hear hear me that's it yes yes no it's absolutely well said yeah so you know not not not responding and not letting your emotions get the better of you is a really valuable thing to know but unbelievably difficult thing to do right i mean we all know that we shouldn't let our emotions get the better of us yeah but it is like i mean you should hear rich you should hear some in my conversations you think that we absolutely hate each other and we are going to you know be at each other's throats 24 7. um and then five minutes later we're completely fine right it's like hey dude so how's it going how's raj we have the kids so you know it is very difficult to let your emotions not get the better of you there is there is one interesting thing that i i was you know told a long time ago that made a real difference and i just want to lay this out there as a very specific tool right uh in terms of how to how to not let the emotions get the better view and that is separate what is being said from who is saying it yeah so don't don't judge the person understand that the person is in a context and really they're just the you know so separate how the person is behaving from who is from who they are for example just you know for you know for ease of explanation let me take this example of saham and i right soham is my co-founder we have our interests completely aligned we you know we both want the best for each other and so that is known now that is the person right but what he is saying what i am saying at any point of time may not quite reflect that person but it's just what they are saying so try and separate what is being said from who is saying it and when you do that i find that that is a very specific tool that that i can use uh that helps me like control and curb my emotions i think richie you mentioned another one which is just breathe um and that is that is also a really really good good tool yes for those of you who have kids there is a really good kids book it's called the rabbit listen um you should try and try and read it it's actually really really nicely portrayed but just just this point that which you made just listen so so i'm on that then this you guys are going to really laugh when i say this but one of the best investors i've ever met right he he gave me a wonderful piece of advice he said if you want to learn to have tough conversations right go and watch this youtube video and buy this book the book is called and the video is called how to talk so kids will listen and how to listen so kids will talk yeah yeah yeah that's actually a classic that's a classic it is it is absolutely a classic and i can't you know one could absolutely replace this with saying how to talk so colleagues will listen and how to listen so colleagues will talk it is you know it is absolutely uh absolutely remarkable okay so i'm you know what i'm going to do just in the interest of time i think we have a couple of people in the audience who have raised their hand let's just bring them up right take some of their questions and keep going this this is a really fascinating set of conversations so we've got anand and abed i'm bringing both you guys up um and it'll take like a minute to to to have them come up but yeah all right guys you're on so abit let's let's start with your question i think you've actually been waiting for a while and anand you know let's get your question post that yeah thank you very much guys it is awesome conversation first of all uh i want to say and definitely i agree with you thank you you know you brought a very good conversations here i have been on both sides of the conversation and i kind of agree 100 but in some cases i think if you go back like 15 years we were not really understood with all the different kind of management models and the way the management is being done now and also the programs were not really fully matured in terms of training and coaching and that that's where the gray line was that am i a manager or am i a coach uh right and where we need to get the guidance right now in these days we have a lot of principles we everybody from top to bottom is looking for that we are looking for a success and everybody is looking for okay my team is successful that mean i am successful right so i am going to go back to the patients right you gotta be patient enough to listen to because sometimes the uh hard conversations happen and then someone is gonna come back and explain things maybe a month later two months later when someone is gonna realize that i did it and now i should explain why i did it right so that's where your emotions are gonna come down to the bottom then you're gonna say oh okay it was fine and because of those business values sometimes confidentiality agreements or higher level people do not want to let you know what is going on from top right so there could be some authoritarian model that you know it just came back to them and they gave them okay this is what we are going to implement and everybody is going to follow there was no consensus built during the inception of the project or anything such but that's what it is right so it is just you know i'm going to go back to richie and you all you guys brought up a very good point that just be patient listen and do not go with the motion you know after sometimes everything is going to go fine and you will have a very good moments and time uh you know in your hand thanks avid thanks avid um so i think that was just an appreciation of of the points brought up uh anand did you have a specific question that you wanted us to to tackle yeah my question for soham is uh what happened next like did that guy turn the turn around the uh his career uh if yes how uh if not like how can you influence him to uh turn it around like what is the ideal scenario like how did he end up winning because ultimately all of us want to win in our careers second is how much of the company orientation or boot camp is a failure part of is a failure for this guy like you know how the setup probably also wasn't the good fit like you know the team fit he didn't have a proper mentor or a proper uh team that could uh you know uh they could get along and perform the best so you know there are a bunch of external factors so i want to uh look into those also we want to analyze it completely not incompletely uh and then certainly just that um i just want to keep on point here so we wanted to talk more about managing difficult conversations and and and we can we can talk offline about sort of what what exactly the situation was uh with that person uh but i will i will i will give you the give you the punch line i think one flaw in in that particular individual was that he assumed authority in his conversations when there was no authority he had there are many people who have this flaw again not not really i think a part of this conversation but but there are many people who talk as if they have authority when they actually don't have the authority they can't really sense the room or the people in the conversation and such um and and that is that was one of his habits uh to do that and that was that is a lot of people were also annoyed when he talked even when he talked sense right people were annoyed because of because of that habit now having said that you're right that not everybody succeeds in all environments um on it and and and one has to find an environment where they can succeed okay so so i have a i have a question for actually everybody here um and i think this is one of the toughest conversations to have at work how do you say no because you know you especially let's look at coved right people are working from home you have you know remote is new for everybody you have challenging stuff with kids right and obviously you know i i as i as somebody mentioned to me the other day work from home has now become i'm staying at work right that's that's really how this has evolved um and so when somebody whether it's a manager who is genuinely you know coming up with a genuine request whether it's a colleague whether it's somebody who is you know your skip level regardless right how do you just push back and say hey no my hands are full i cannot really take this on and maybe the flip side to that is or i can't take it on but i am not going to be able to do this in the timeline that you mentioned so how do you just say no when you genuinely have a reason to say no and you know anybody just take this um and try and give some specific examples where you where you face this and how you've handled this i think i'm very quick i have been not like not too deep but very similar to this kovet example right uh when initially rishi can you hear us rishi we can't we can't hear you can you guys hear her by the way no no i can't hear you can you hear me now yes yes we can hear you now yes sorry sorry about that yeah so uh it was a simple example where uh when kobit started my son was at home um he's three years old so you he needs attention full time and me and my husband divided the duties okay in the morning i will take care of the kid in the evening someone else right so when all the meetings come to me in the morning i literally have to say hey 9 to 12 i cannot take any of it because i have child care but the same things i if you push it in the evening or in the afternoon i will gladly take it right so just be transparent to them saying hey this is my situation uh but it's not that i'm saying no to the work i'm excited that you're giving me the work i can only do it during this these hours if it is hour related or during this period of time that is very interesting so soham taught me something very interesting by the way on this front in terms of uh you know linked to what you are saying richie some has this thesis of stay on your side of the net and i think you you put it very interestingly just now i'm very excited to do this work i would love to do it i'm just not in a position to do it right now so it's not like a hard no it's a soft no so am i saying something oh yeah i mean i think it changes from situation to situation and uh depending on what you are saying no to uh the example that you give you gave ryan about let's say if somebody is giving you more work that you cannot do my personal opinion and experience has been instead of directly saying no you first understand okay what that task is if you can estimate how much time that's going to take then you you do that and then you take it back to the person let's say if your boss is giving you this task saying that hey we need to get this done uh first do some due diligence on okay what that task is how much time it's gonna take and then present your current roadmap saying that okay we can this this task is gonna take x number of weeks right now i am i am having this this and this on my plate and so if to make room for this particular one i'll have to replace one of these so what do you think your what we should replace or even better some you could give proposal saying that okay it looks like this task is more important than this so my proposal is that we move this out to make space for this and that also shows that okay you're not just presenting a problem but uh also giving some alternatives and solutions and in that process the manager or whoever is giving you that work may also realize that whatever you have on your plate already is actually more important than the new task that came in so again but this is very specific for this task like this won't work for other conversations such as hey i want more money right in that case you can't really use this but specifically for work i think this is something that has uh worked for me at least for more than one occasion yeah no very very very good point uh uh richard and when it both so i think one thing that that we have not discussed which i think both of you have already reflected is is to create a level of trust prior to saying no like if you could create a level trust in the conversation like in the relationship that is that is awesome um and and the and a great way of creating trust is what i what i sometimes call is by like drip irrigation right and so you have to wow so um um thank you thank you um i told you i'm not the smartest person in the room um so anyway so the reason the reason guys there's a bit of history here the reason i was i was laughing about drip irrigation is because soham and i have discussed about using this in a very different context but it works let's let's put it this way it works in all relationships i suppose um yeah and i think i yes and anyway we had done a session earlier as well where we discussed this but but the point is that when you when you are in a new environment or or even if an existing environment right for every relationship like think of it as as creating trust between every between any pairs of relationships that you and and your manager you and your peers you and your customers you and you and and and really anybody in the company and and when you want to have a difficult conversation like saying no to something that is important to the other person it gets much much easier if there is a certain level of trust that is created prior to that right and they see you in a positive light right before that so and obviously there are many many ways of creating trust and potentially a completely different conversation but but like don't wait for a difficult conversation to arise like like assume that you will have to have some difficult conversations at what potentially one every day with with with nearly everybody who's around you and and keep creating little things little bubbles of trust in it right uh over a period of time prior to you hitting that difficult conversation so ham i think that's probably one of the best advice for anybody that's joining any company to start doing their trusts across the organizations especially folks that are in decision-making roles it's also extremely helpful where if and when you need to convince them with some of your ideas as well so trust goes a long way and you need to build it slowly totally 100 agree all right yeah i agree as well i think that is that is probably the the the best piece of advice you can give and and you know just just to just to uh put this interestingly you know to show how difficult trust is and then i'm going to take raja's question there's a fascinate and i'm you know the fascinating uh jamaican saying on trust and i i keep it in mind at all points of time it says and you know imagine me saying this in a jamaican accent it says trust grows at the pace at which a coconut tree grows and it breaks at the pace at which the coconut falls ryan what if you don't know how it can make an accent sounds like it sounds sound sounds a little bit like you you are i'm just kidding i'm just kidding so you are you are says these really you know these gems so you know i i really love this right trust grows at the pace at which your coconut tree grows and breaks at a pace at which the coconut falls so important to build this linkedin right do it do it do it do it i love it i love it there are two two favorite things that is one and the other favorite saying that i have is every morning in africa a lion and a gazelle wake up uh some is going to relate to this when it comes to me every morning a lion and a gazelle in africa wake up the lion knows it needs to run faster than the slowest gazelle and the slowest gazelle knows it needs to run faster than the fastest line bottom line when the sun rises every morning you better be running that's the other other other phrase that i really like okay now enough about me and the phrases that i like rajat you had a question you you you've come up how can we help you okay thank you thanks everyone my name is raj nice nice to meet you nice to meet you as well uh so yeah i think uh great conversation great stories you know great uh conflict resolution once uh quickly wanted to know um you know i know we talked about a customer uh conflict story as well you know what soham talked about and there were different views uh i would like to know you know this customer you know of yours i know i'm not going deep into it but another scenario where customer has uh made a decision to part ways right i mean it depends on the extent or the intensity of the situation of a customer right i know data points um really help when you go in a customer conversation uh what happens if you know somebody's like oh i want to just part ways with you right it's not working this relationship's not working i know you know we don't want to go into the background what happened but i would like to know how do you handle such kind of a situation when he's like done we're done you know and what do we do next i can go but it seems like i've babbled a lot um anybody else has a has any thoughts around it i have some thoughts but i've probably babbled more than you so i will wait and see if everybody anybody else has a chance in general in the lifetime i would give that to you correct so true all right um okay so um let's see there is there is also another question on on the youtube channel where it is streaming how do you handle a conversation when when the other person sort of comes in with a completely finite or finalized mindset like to say i'm i'm done right or or like a manager comes and you know that they are not going to listen to you like that that's not one of their one of their things in it um you know let's see that's that that question doesn't have many pretty answers right like it's one is a a lot of that the result of a lot of that difficult conversation is going to be directly proportional to the level of trust that has been created so far and if a customer has come to a point that damn i'm just going to leave there is there is a lot to the story and and the idea is to dig into that so what would i do is i would i would dig into the story right i would start the conversation try and and get their confidence first and try and exactly understand what happened and what unfolded right and then i would i would with that detail and with that data i would get the other side of the story of why that happened and when when i dig into details i almost always it boils down to either somebody just made an honest mistake somewhere or it was just a clear misunderstanding of things right 99 out of 100 cases just boil down to this when you look into the details and and that is and once you get that you present exactly what happened and that is really the only thing you can you can do you can't do much um i mean this particular case of a customer obviously there's a lot more that goes into a buying decision than just trust or details like the pricing goes into into the buying decision like what who's making the decision is that a new person who has come in and and such and so there's obviously a very complex situation and can't generalize advice but but typically when somebody comes into a point where where you're like i'm done and i can't do that's it and i just go i just want to break away and you really want to save that relationship save that customer save that uh save that instance like you have to just get into details like i personally don't know any other any other way of doing this ryan do you have anything else on that no i think couple of things to keep in mind right um very good question people coming in with a close with a fixed closed mindset i think two things in terms of this specific customer example sometimes you know so the default thought process is oh i must convince this customer not to leave or i must convince this person otherwise people don't take leaps in their thinking they take micro steps right and so in this case and i won't repeat the whole thought process that someone mentioned obviously you have to dig in to try and figure out i would actually just work to shift their mindset a little bit right and just try and help them get to a point where they say okay at least get them to reconsider their decision that is it right there is there is no there is you know it's very difficult to go back and say that okay you'll make them change the decision completely i want to actually link this to another question that has come on um on the youtube stream then swam i think navdeep has a question he's just come up but the question on the youtube stream is actually incredibly interesting it says how to deal with a difficult conversation when the problem is your manager may have an ego they don't want to listen right um and they've already decided so linked to where the question that we're discussing right now but i think the the one the one dimension of this which is new and this is for all of you how do you deal with a conversation where the person who's your manager who's on the other end has a strong ego and is just not willing to change their mind and it's driven because of the ego not not not really anything else it's the ego that is really preventing them from doing anything else and i'm sure we've all faced this multiple times uh you all i'm gonna ask you because i think you might have a very interesting perspective there how do you deal with somebody who is coming to the room has a big ego and so they're not willing to listen well my short answer you have to do it wisely right and because you don't want to get into a dispute with them but hopefully i mean if they see that there are other smart people around them they will be less eager to to think that that they are the smartest people in the room and you can carefully point them when they make mistakes right but um it's a dangerous situation especially if if the person with the big ego is your manager right if it's a co-worker then it's slightly um easier but i would say if you do good job it's a good job then people will appreciate you so why do you even care about the ego of the other person okay that's a i figure that you will have that point of view very interesting so um do you have a counter to that do you have any other view on that uh a few things and especially if you are talking about a manager and you feel like a manager has an ego and they're not listening i think there are a few things that could be going on that it is possible that they actually don't have an ego it is just that it is just that you have one right where you are not listening and what the manager is trying to say and and i know it's difficult to hear that but that also very often happens like we are ingrained into our own thought process as strongly as the other person is and that is one big reason we start to see the other person as having the ego when we forget that it is it could actually be us now and to you all's point and and other points that were made earlier like when something like this happens you just have to go back to data right data creates trust in it so so you just have to go by reflect on the conversation that you've had in the past with that manager has he always been here yeah has he always been like that has it is it always been that he's just not listening right that's funny in if you have had five interactions with them before like is it that they have always been like that right then they asked the question is that person exactly the same with other people around you also then you start start creating that data start creating that story start making those observations if that is actually the case right that the person is exactly the same way with everybody else and you can actually make an objective judgment about it then you should just escalate this to say look here is here is my data this person has an ego they just have a certain opinion they keep imposing it on everybody everywhere right escalated to to their manager or their manager's manager and but but if you feel like no that is not the case it is actually a hit and miss so to speak to say some conversations feel like they are egotistic and some conversations feel like they're actually very very reasonable then i think you should start with more introspection to say is there something i'm doing where i'm feeling that this is an egotist conversation like is there a is there a different way they they expect let me go back to my previous conversation which was successful and how did that become successful right so so a lot of these answers are are actually can be arrived at with introspection also and if you feel like no you have exhausted all of that also and just can't make headway change the team right your escalation doesn't make headway and you feel like you can't get through even despite in uh despite introspection change the team that's how i would go with it okay great um guys i've actually turned off raising hands for questions because i think we've already gone 10 minutes over but we have two more people so let's take their questions then maybe they wrap this up navdeep you had a question and then mihul hey hey guys uh good job hi yes navdeep hi welcome to the stage thank you fascinating conversations we're having um i would um i have a question which is an extension to uh you know the question that was asked uh previously where a customer has made up their mind they want to part ways you know what what how would we you know uh come about uh you know how would we create a positive outcome or handle this conversation when you're let's say your star employee right has decided he wants to leave and and primarily if he's leaving because of the money then how could you handle that conversations with their father you know hopefully to have a positive outcome okay so your star employee or star team member wants to leave because they have got an opportunity which ha which pays them more that's that's the question of the yeah okay um any of you guys want to take this so home you want to take this you all beneath uh i have some points on this but i i'll maybe wait for you guys to answer from an engineering perspective i mean usually such conversations happen or you find out that this person is leaving uh at the last moment right like it is very difficult to change somebody's mind when that person has already accepted an offer and if if let's say if you like there are very few things that you could do at that stage in my opinion and uh one thing that you could try to see is is money really the only reason because of which uh he or she is leaving and uh or are there any other uh circumstances or lack of opportunities or many that the money is obviously one of the reasons but there could be other reasons as well and potentially you could do a counter offer like sometimes i have seen that being presented but i personally don't know anybody who received a counter offer they took that and they stayed with that company so i i'm actually not sure if uh anybody successfully managed to retain an employee just by giving them more money so vinit i actually you know i'm going to bring in sohamiyah because soham uh sorry satin did you have something to say yeah i had something to say so yeah go for it first yeah one point uh we need what we need mentioned right that what what i've seen is that it is sometimes more than money right and also try to find out is there uh you know offer offer that employee some bigger role or some challenging stuff right uh and you know and then also give a promise to work on the money part whatever you can do right now yes you can do but other than that give a promise or at least say that yeah you are going to work on it and you know create a plan for it and plus also find out you know highlighting their work giving them more opportunities giving them more responsibility will it keep them there and if the employee is ready to take then it's worth to consider otherwise if employees just stick to the money part then it is questionable that you know without even if or she is a star employee but even without uh trying to contribute more if money is their only motivation in long run is that person really ever going to stay in the company for a long time that that's something you need to consider also just sorry one more question and comment i don't know whether i misunderstood the question i think i agree with certain but my experiences those tactics work in situations like you are having a performance evaluation or annuitation review and then the person expresses that no he or she is not happy with that money in that case like if you cannot just give what money then you can try different opportunities etc but if the situation is that the person has already accepted an offer outside and they are telling you that okay i'm leaving because i'm getting more money then at that time i don't know whether uh like again giving bigger role etc would like would change that person's right have you seen those situations again uh yeah i have you know at nutanix and past uh twice at least the employees they considered and they stayed back uh where okay there will be a bigger state that we will set for you for example there was one engineer who was staff and he was doing pretty good and i'm like you know if you are continuing at the same same pace then in another six to nine months we will be able to put you up for senior staff and senior staff it's a very coveted position in many high-tech companies in the area right and it comes with a lot of thoughts as well and compensation and the financial gain is one of the big part uh and the employee uh he he stayed back and apparently in another one year uh we were able to promote him to a senior staff level position and he was happy then so i had not all the time it is successful but i had a couple of instances where the employee stayed back i said good to know thanks okay cool thanks um mahal did you have a specific question that you wanted to ask us uh yeah i was saying that as a software engineer you invest a lot of years in learning that area and then being at the next level but if if the manager has just been downplaying uh people and refuses to kind of uh recognize the work right and even after he's told to promote you so now the other option is you uh you go to another group but they there you have to learn things out there and you have to perform higher maybe than some other junior guys uh so then so then you wonder how long to keep being there versus going to another company but then there was some attachment like having a higher title in that company if uh you know so in the next 10 20 years i can kind of use that and so that that is where sometimes i have i've seen people get stuck in in me too because if they're not really acknowledging your your work at that level i mean this one particular person i mean his managers were okay but he himself was not okay uh some you you wanna sing no no i i i was just uh uh no i'm just gonna thank me all for for that for that comment there was no question there right you just wanna make a comment no no the question was what do you have to keep doing to kind of melt that guy's uh change that guy's opinion because having invested one or two years more because if you change the group then you have to learn a lot more to perform at that level in another group and so sometimes you wonder whether to keep staying in that same group so that is what the question is so what should you do to change the the opinion of your manager if they are not seeing you in a positive light yeah um so i suppose again loaded loaded question i'm most things i like to do is start from first principles [Music] they are not seeing you in a positive light why like there was it was likely over a period of time something was built right and are you saying that you honestly just made a few mistakes or or whatnot and that's how it was built uh or are you saying that just a new manager um and they just didn't know enough like some i think mayhem is actually back in the audience i don't think he can answer okay um so maybe just assume and just keep moving that's fine okay yeah sounds sounds good sounds good so so if it was if it is the former when you've actually just made over time a few mistakes and that is why your performance may not be seen in a positive light compared to your your peers like you just have to just own up to them right and and do other things which are more positive and then over time drown out the negatives there is there's no other way i know of of doing that um create trust like with with again with drip irrigation little things like here and there little things little things just try and build up more and more trust don't claim a lot more don't assume authority when you don't have because you have made those mistakes in the past um and such and and do more positive things get more things off of their plate and get involved in more opportunities to to make a more positive impact you know that and so so that's that's what the line of thought i would take there on the other side if you feel like you know you have not made any mistakes here um this is just like a subjective opinion then then ask yourself this question um is it is it just more a personal thing between the two of you or or is it like a general thing right what is the opinion of your peers and such like a 360 feedback would help really well in that case uh is it just an isolated to isolate the opinion if it is actually an isolated opinion then a 360 feedback would would be really helpful to do you could do it formally you could do it informally as well um but but generally uh if you feel like you are the only one being singled out it is largely either a personal thing that they are holding against you right or it is actually the the 360 feedback will tell you that that everybody else also holds the same opinion right in that case obviously solutions are different so i hope i hope that helps all right guys i think we should wrap this up this has gone on well over and our great set of questions um i want to just thank everybody guys i was making a bunch of notes right while while you know before this conversation and after in terms of specifics that you could take away and use so i'm just going to quickly run through them i think the the really big point was build trust over time make sure that you go in very well prepared right know what you want out of the conversation don't be afraid to confront people right don't try and justify everything provide an explanation try and separate the person from the point they are making stay calm stay collected as you all said try and be very wise about the conversation right and know that tough conversations are really part and parcel of what happens in a day job right they might take different shapes and forms but it's completely okay to get into those conversations and deal with them you all vinith heen satin uh richie who was here before steph soham thanks all of you guys we will be back next week same time the easiest way to know when we're on is just to follow the moderators steph soham and i um you'll know when we are on but same time next week we look forward to seeing you guys then you all vinith heren satin thanks especially for making it today and we look forward to seeing you guys in some of the next upcoming sessions all right cheers guys thank you guys thanks guys enjoy enjoy bye bye bye you all see you guys thanks ryan for for trying to moderate no worries bye okay bye difficult to do when you have a bunch of interesting people difficult conversations you see um see you guys bye you

Channel: Interview Kickstart

Views: 1,634

Rating: 5 out of 5

Keywords: interview kickstart, how to have difficult conversations, how to fire someone, how to deal with passive aggressive boss, how to deal with a difficult boss, how to say no at work, how to say no to more work

Id: FN1aiMyfJRM

Length: 83min 14sec (4994 seconds)

Published: Thu Mar 04 2021