>>> THE IDEA THAT THERE IS AN ABSTRACT RULE OF LAW OR AN ABSTRACT DEMOCRACY THAT EXISTS IN THE ATMOSPHERE AND SOME DAY DISTANTLY IN THE FUTURE WE MIGHT LOSE IT, THAT'S NOT HOW THIS GOES. THE RULE OF LAW IS MORTAL, RIGHT? IT CAN BE KILLED. IT IS WOUNDED WHEN THE PEOPLE INVOLVED IN THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM AND THE ADJUDICATION OF ALLEGED CRIMES ARE BEING THREATENED AND HARASSED AND INTIMIDATED AND PRESSURED OUT OF THEIR JOBS FOR DOING THAT WORK. >> HI THERE, EVERYBODY. IT'S 5:00. NOW IN NEW YORK, THE RULE OF LAW IS MORTAL. DIRE THREAT. THAT IS MY COLLEAGUE RACHEL MADDOW BUILDING UP TO AN INTERVIEW WITH FANI WILLIS. IT WILL MAKE SENSE WHY I PLAYED IT. DONALD TRUMP SPENT THE LAST EIGHT YEARS DOING EVERYTHING IN HIS POWER TO STRIP FROM THE AMERICAN PEOPLE THEIR CONFIDENCE IN ALL OF OUR INSTITUTIONS. BY HIS TELLING OUR ELECTIONS ARE RIGGED, VERDICTS ARE RIGGED, EVERYTHING IS RIGGED. IN THE LONG TERM, THESE ATTACKS HAVE AN OVERWHELMINGLY CORROSIVE AND DANGEROUS EFFECT ON THE VERY FOUNDATIONS AND PILLARS OF OUR DEMOCRACY. AGAIN, THE RULE OF LAW IS UNDER ATTACK. IT NEEDS TO BE PROTECTED. HEARTENING, SEEMED LIKE MAYBE HE HE LISTENING WITH WHEN ATTORNEY GENERAL MERRICK GARLAND SUBMITTED AN OP THAT SERVED AS A PUBLIC WARNING. QUOTE, UNFOUNDED ATTACKS ON THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT MUST END. AFTER TICKING THROUGH CONSPIRACY THEORIES, FALSEHOODS AND THREATS OF VIOLENCE, GARLAND EXISTS ACTS COULD CAUSE REAL HARM TO THE DONALD JR. AND THE MEN AND WOMEN WHO HELP CARRY ITS MISSION. IT WAS REMINISCENT OF WHAT HE TOLD THE HUGHES JUDICIARY COMMITTEE LAST WEEK. >> CERTAIN MEMBERS OF THIS COMMITTEE AND OVERSIGHT COMMITTEE ARE SEEKING CONTEMPTS-TEMPT AS A MEANS OF OBTAINING FOR NO LEGITIMATE PURPOSE. SENSITIVE LAW ENFORCEMENT INFORMATION THAT COULD HARM THE INTEGRITY OF FUTURE INVESTIGATIONS. I WILL NOT BE INTIMIDATED AND THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT WILL NOT BE INTIMIDATED. >> THESE THREATS WILL NOT GO AWAY. THEY WON'T GO AWAY BECAUSE OF WHAT HE SAID. IN FACT, TODAY PROVES ANYTHING, IT'S THAT EVEN WHEN THE RULE OF LAW WORKS OUT IN A WAY THAT DAMAGES THE CURRENT PRESIDENT, TRUMP'S POLITICAL ADVERSARY COULD ACTUALLY BENEFIT TRUMP POLITICALLY. PRESIDENT BIDEN'S OWN SON WAS CONVICTED IN A COURT OF LAW. MANY ELEMENTS OF THE FAR RIGHT STILL INSIST THAT THERE IS SOME CONSPIRACY AT PLATE, IT'S ALL A SHAM. IT'S STILL RIGGED. AGAIN, RACHEL'S WARNING, THE RULE OF LAW IS MORTAL AND NOW IT IS UP U UP TO ALL OF US TO PROTECT IT. IT'S WHERE WE START WITH OUR FRIEND AND COLLEAGUE THE HOST OF THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW ON MSNBC, THE HOST OF THE PODCAST ULTRA. THE SECONDARY SEASON PREMIERED YESTERDAY. THE FIRST EPISODE IS AVAILABLE WITH MUCH MORE TO COME. WE WILL GET TO THAT IN A MINUTE. RACHEL, SUCH A HEAVY NEWS CYCLE. YOUR THOUGHTS? >> WELL, I THINK THAT IF THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS WEAPONIZED THE LEGAL SYSTEM OF THIS COUNTRY TO ONLY EVER GO AFTER REPUBLICANS AND CONSERVATIVES AND NEVER GO AFTER DEMOCRATS, I THINK TODAY PROVES THAT THEY ARE DOING AN ABSOLUTELY TERRIBLE JOB OF THAT. BOY, HAVE THEY -- ARE THEY FALLING DOWN ON THE JOB, ALLOWING THE PRESIDENT'S SON NOT ONLY TO BE PROSECUTED, BUT CONVICTED AND THEN SOMEHOW MANIPULATING PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN INTO SAYING I RESPECT THE RULE OF LAW. NO, I'M NOT PARDONING MY SON. HE MAY APPEAL, BUT WE SUPPORT I HIM AND RESPECT THE JURY'S VERDICT. THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU WOULD EXPECT. WE HAVE BOB MENENDEZ ON TRIAL, DEMOCRATIC SENATOR. A DEMOCRATIC CONGRESSMAN WHO IS CRIMINALLY INDICTED AND GOING ON TRIAL. THE IMPORTANT THING ABOUT THIS IS THAT IS GIVERS LIE TO THE REPUBLICAN CRITIQUE, TO THE TRUMP SCREED THAT THERE IS SOMETHING ABOUT THE JUSTICE SYSTEM THAT IS SKEWED AGAINST THEM AND IS DESIGNED TO HELP DEMOCRATS. I THINK WE KNOW IN OUR HEADS THAT THAT HASN'T BEEN A GOOD FAITH CRITIQUE, BUT A DAY LIKE TODAY SHOULD DISPROVE, RIGHT? IF THEY WERE ARGUING ON A RATIONAL BASIS, THAT WAS BASED ON FACTS. IT'S NOT BASED ON FACTS. IS JUST DESIGNED AS AN ATTACK AGAINST THE AMERICAN SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT BECAUSE THEY ARE RUNNING AGAINST THE AMERICAN SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT. AND IT IS REALLY NOT ABOUT THE FACTS OF ANY INDIVIDUAL CASE, INCLUDING THOSE AGAINST TRUMP. >> I MEAN, I THINK THAT MY HABIT THAT I'M DETERMINED TO BREAK IN THIS ELECTION CYCLE IS TO STOP LOOKING FOR THE CIRCUIT BREAKER OR THE THING THAT BREAKS THE FEVER. I IMMEDIATELY GO TO CONSERVATIVE MEDIA TO SEE DO THEY BELIEVE THE RULE OF LAW IS A REAL THING, AND NOT WHAT YOU JUST DESCRIBED, AND IT DIDN'T, AND I WAS DISAPPOINTED AGAIN AND I WANT TO STOP ASKING THE WRONG QUESTIONS AND I FEEL LIKE SO MUCH OF WHAT WE HAVE TO GET RIGHT THIS TIME BECAUSE WAY TOO MUCH IS ON THE LINE THE QUESTION ISN'T, DID SOME ON THE RIGHT FINALLY BECOME PERSUADED THE RULE OF LAW A REAL THING? WE HAVE TO PROTECT IT, IT TREATS EVERYONE FAIRLY, JOE BIDEN STOOD BY AS HIS SON WAS CONVICTED BY A JURY OF PEERS AND SAID HE WON'T PARDON HIM. THE QUESTION IS, WAS IT ALL A PROJECTION, RIGHT? I WONDER WHAT YOU THINK, WHAT YOU TAKE FROM THIS, THAT THERE IS NO EQUIVALENCE, NO NEED TO SEEK OUT SYMMETRY BECAUSE THE RIGHT ISN'T ASKING THE SAME QUESTIONS. THEY ARE NOT HAVING THE SAME CONVERSATION. >> YEAH, THERE IS A REASON THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT DONALD TRUMP AND SUPPORTERS OF TRUMP HAVE BEEN IMMUNE TO FACT-CHECKING OVER THE PAST FIVE TO EIGHT YEARS, NINE YEARS, I GUESS NOW. IT'S BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT -- THEY DON'T CARE WITH BEING WRONG, RIGHT? THIS ISN'T A FACT-BASED APPEAL THAT THEY ARE MAKING TO PEOPLE. THEY ARE TRYING TO MAKE YOU FEEL LIKE AMERICA IS IN AN EMERGENCY, THAT AMERICA IS UNDER EXISTENTIAL ATTACK FROM EVIL PEOPLE WHO MUST BE DESTROYED BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY. THERE IS AN ENEMY WITHIN AND WE ARE IN SUCH DIRE STRAITS AS A COUNTRY, WE NEED TO GET RID OF THE GOVERNMENT, THE PROCESS E THE PEOPLE HAVING A SAY, THE SAFEGUARDS AND CHECKS AND BALANCES AND INSTEAD JUST HAVE SOMEBODY WHO WILL SLAY THE DEMON, HAVE SOMEBODY WHO IS GOING TO VANQUISH OUR ENEMIES ONCE AND FOR ALL. AND IF YOU'RE GOING TO MAKE THAT KIND OF A CASE, YOU'RE NOT MAKING IT BASED ON THE OBSERVABLE FACTS IN THE WORLD WHERE YOU'RE HORRIFIED IF YOU ARE FOUND TO BE WRONG AND THEN YOU CORRECT IT OR NEW FACTS ARRIVE THAT DISPROVE WHAT YOU WERE SAYING AND SO YOU COURSE CORRECT. IT'S NOT ABOUT THE FACT OF WHAT THEY ARE ASSERTING. IT'S ABOUT THE FIGHT. THEY WANT THE FIGHT. AND SO IT PUTS, YOU KNOW, THOSE OF US WHO ARE SORT OF STILL LIVING IN A REASON-BASED WORLD AT A DISADVANTAGE BECAUSE YOU CAN'T BRING REASON TO A FIGHT WITH SOMEBODY WHO IS NOT ACTUALLY TRYING TO RATIONALLY PERSUADE YOU. THEY ARE JUST TRYING TO UPSET YOU. I STILL THINK THAT'S WHAT WE HAVE TO DO, RIGHT? I MEAN, I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD EXPECT THE TRUMPIAN RIGHT AND THE TRUMPIAN REPUBLICAN PARTY TO BE PERSUADED BY NEW FACTS. BUT WE SHOULD CONTINUE TO REPORT AND DESCRIBE AND CONTEXTUALIZE RESPONSIBLY THE ACTUAL FACTS OF THE WORLD IN THE HOPES THAT THE CRAZY-MAKING CONSPIRATORIAL FACT-FREE STUFF THEY ARE SELLING WILL ULTIMATELY HAVE FEWER BUYERS IN THE LARGER PUBLIC. YOU CAN'T MOVE MIKE JOHNSON, YOU CAN'T MOVE KASH PATEL, LAURA TRUMP, WHATEVER HER NAME IS, NOT MOVING THESE PEOPLE WITH RATIONAL ARGUMENT LET ALONE TRUMP HIMSELF. MAYBE SOMEBODY WHO DOESN'T PAY ATTENTION TO THAT MUCH POLITICS WILL HEAR THE FACTS FROM YOU AND FROM RESPONSIBLE NEWS -- FROM NEWS ORGANIZATIONS AND THEY'LL RECOGNIZE WHAT THEY ARE TRYING TO SELL IS A BUNCH OF BUNK AN MAYBE THEY WON'T VOTE FOR IT. IT'S UNROMANTIC, BUT THAT'S THE TASK. LIKE, STAY WHETTED TO THE TRUTH, KEEP CONFRONTING THEM AND CONTRADICTING THEM WHEN THEY ARE WRONG AND POINTING OUT TRUE THINGS, AND BELIEVE THE BEST OF OUR FELLOW CITIZENS. >> HOW DID DOES THAT INFORM HOW YOU ARE GOING TO COVER OR THINKING ABOUT THE NEXT FIVE MONTHS, THE GENERAL ELECTION, WHICH IS LITERALLY UPON US? >> YEAH. WELL, TWO THINGS. ONE IS THAT I THINK WE ALL NEED A LOT OF ENERGY AND STAMINA AND WE NEED TO TAKE CARE OF OURSELVES. I MEAN THAT IN A WAY THAT SOUNDS A LITTLE WOO-WOO, I KNOW, BUT I THINK FIVE MONTHS IS BOTH URGENT, A FIVE-MONTH TIMELINE IS URGENT, MEANING WE ARE ALREADY IN THE MIDDLE OF IT, AND LONG ENOUGH WE CAN'T EXHAUST OURSELVES AND GET TIRED AND SICK AND WORN OUT NOW. WE NEED HAVE A LOT OF ENERGY, MARSHALL OUR STRENGTH, WORK TOGETHER, NOT GET DISTRACTED BY PETTY BS AND TACTICS DESIGNED TO TURN US AGAINST ONE ANOTHER. PARTICULARLY IN THE PRESS, ALL OF THE USUAL COMPETITIVENESS IN THE PRESS AT THIS POINT HAS TO BE LOW PRIORITY AND WHAT WE NEED TO FOCUS ON IS DOING OUR BEST WORK AND SUPPORTING OUR COLLEAGUES IN THE PROCESS. THEY ARE ATTACKED BY THE RIGHT. SO THAT'S SOME OF IT. BUT I ALSO THINK, NICOLLE, YOU KNOW, THAT WE NEED TO STOP TALKING ABOUT THIS AS A THREAT THAT'S GOING TO ARRIVE. YOU KNOW, THAT THE BAD THING MIGHT START HAPPENING IF THE ELECTION GOES X WAY. THE BAD THING IS HERE. THE ATTACKS ON THE LEGAL SYSTEM, THE ATTACKS ON THE ELECTION AND OUR ELECTORAL SYSTEM, THOSE THINGS ARE HERE. WE ARE LIVING WITH THAT NOW. THE TIME TO
