LTSE CEO Eric Ries | Full interview | Code 2019

so something happened with the SEC what happened what did they do yes thank you hi okay this is Yale there's no time for pleasure okay fine the Securities and Exchange Commission you may have heard was founded after the Great Depression okay we have been a tell TSE applying for what's called a national securities exchange license so that we can be into the same regulatory category as NYC our Nasdaq and on May 10th that application was finally approved so we are the fifth company in the United States that has authorized to operate a national spirit exchange so what's the point of a Stock Exchange yeah I think people still have this image in their mind of a Stock Exchange it's like the marble building with the animal in front and trading happens inside but that hasn't been true for a long time even the famous marble building is really it's more of a TV set now in a museum the servers are in New Jersey the actual trading happens electronically and in fact every Stock Exchange the United States is integrated into what's called the national market system meaning that wherever your company lists your stock still trades everywhere and yet stock exchanges have this delegated grant of power from the government to regulate the behavior of managers and investors simultaneously so they're actually a very important part of crafting the rules that govern the companies that govern how we all live so our idea was to create a new one which hasn't been done in a while and to focus it not on trading stocks but on creating a better experience for being a public company one that would allow companies to think in more in generational terms long term multi-stakeholder principles and have that be part of every employees lived experience so let's back up on that for a minute what went wrong with the ones we have why is there a need to have a different kind of Stock Exchange yeah it's actually not the stock exchanges fault you know I wouldn't say that like sake changes caused the problem it's more like we have a policy environment for companies that our grandparents would say makes absolutely no sense so if you look at the just the data about it first of all the number of public companies is in decline everyone knows this right that over the last 20 years the number of public companies in the United States has been cut in half and it's not like it just happened recently if you all know that ribald decline everyone knows that if we extrapolate that trend down it's been a straight line down for the last like 22 years if you just keep extrapolating that trend it's like what are we gonna have like four giant mega tech companies that own everything everything else will be private and what's behind that trend is a consolidation is it a lack of new entrants into the market of course yeah exactly right so so companies are not going public if they don't have to you've all noticed that surely the average time to IPO is up you know dramatically in the last 20 years you have a lot more M&A activity than we used to have so there's a lot more returns to consolidation and you have the rise of private equity so companies are being taken private faster than new ones are going public so as a consequence of that the general public is actually literally being left out of growth is this is like a policy consequence that no one specifically chose to have it's just an accident of the way that we've arranged things it used to be our grandparents built a system for us where growth in the economy was financed by the retirement savings of ordinary people and now we've switched over to a model in which the growth is being funded by oligarchs and Petro state dollars and other kinds of characters that I mean I don't know nothing against them but does that really make sense like is that a good idea for the industry especially for the tech industry to say hey we build products that affect everybody but the growth the positive side of that success should be distributed only to extremely narrow set of people I don't think that's that's such a good idea of course like five six years ago when we started working on LTS II people thought you know well this it's not gonna be a problem you know this is this is like a solution in search of a non problem and they don't say that anymore so it's been helpful that carrots been helpful in that what people think of the big tech companies I could Google we think of Facebook these are publicly held companies they are on stock exchanges you can go buy stock we cover the ups and downs of it daily what problem can you actually fix here well it's gonna be a challenge I mean this is a huge entrenched system that a lot of people profit from so I don't I really not a believe it we're going to over promise that I'm you know now we've got this approval boom we're gonna change the markets overnight but I think there are very specific things that can be done they can put companies on to a better and more sustainable path so if you look at this next generation of companies the next generation of founders like what are they all about what do they care about what do they want they tend to be very long-term and their outlook they're thinking a lot of what their company is gonna be like decades from now a lot of the most visionary founders are thinking about what the next CEO is gonna inherit from them already they tend to be much more multi-stakeholder in their approach you think about their employees how how the rise of employee activism and how much this new generation of employees like demands something more in terms of a Purpose Driven organization and then they they have a real desire to go back to that kind of early days of tech when when their products were seen as healthy for people and of course what we need to do then is build governance systems I know it sounds kind of boring but like we're gonna start off with governance system sorry that's just how it is governance systems that can actually help companies make the metrics of doing those things that we just talked about as important as their financial metrics so when I back up on this when I talk to people who are skeptical the idea that short-termism is a major problem the economy get a couple you get a couple ideas here one is it in 2018 eighty percent of the companies that IPO are non profitable yeah that's on the one hand remarkable and strange yeah Larry and how short-term can the markets really be if 80% of the company's going into them aren't profitable and if the one everybody's so excited about is Amazon which looks at profits with a sense of distaste and almost like disgust like how their profits are taxed what is the actual what what is the actual evidence that short-termism is a problem in the economy yeah there's two things I look at first of all just give me two seconds on my background so I come at this not from a capital markets point of view I'm not a professional investor I was a tech entrepreneur my whole life and I was programming computers since I was a kid and we know when I got into Silicon Valley like tech was just tech equaled good right so the tech met like we're doing something good changing the world for the better and I want to you know creating this thing called lean startup and that one I'm taking over my life and I wound up getting to work as a consultant as an investor as an advisor with companies of every conceivable size and scale big public companies governments you know two guys in the garage everything up to a hundreds of thousands of people so the first I think that the evidence that I personally turn to about the problem short or short termism is the lived experience of every freaking middle manager in America just go talk to them if you go work on the front lines of a fad walk into a factory walk into a any kind of boardroom and listen to what the conversation is do any of those people believe that their company is being successful because of the public markets or in spite of the public markets and we all know the answer this question I'll just give you one just one story I was flying back from DC where I have to go now regularly and I was meeting with all kinds of pooh-bahs and policymakers and people and that conversation in DC was very much like is there a problem maybe the problem will fix itself yeah it probably will fix itself no need to do anything there's the most common thing that I heard it's like the Fed will raise interest rates and then dot dot dot and then everything will go back to the way it was was the most common factor and it was right after Virgin America had announced they were being taken over by Alaska Airlines so all the tech people I knew were all mourning the loss of Virgin America very sad and I was checking in at the checkout counter and all the I was like a bunch of baggage attendants and flight attendants and the check-in through all kind of congregating discussing the murder just just broke and I just said hey how are you how are you all feeling about it and the person taking my ticket to check-in my bag was like you know you know short-termism in the public markets what are you gonna do once you got greedy you go public and then of all people care about it the financial metrics and they don't do what's right and screw the employees and whatever and I was like okay so the baggage attendant understands this problem but the policymakers are like is it really a problem and there's like this bizarre inversion of expertise that we have in our society where the people who are living the problem understand it very well if you've never been in that situation just just go go see for yourself it's very evident now in policy circles no one cares about that they want to know what is the academic research evidence but they knew you know the beacon to my people no problem good news the academic research on this topic is also extremely clear that like here's an it here's a great study that what they took matched pairwise companies that you know both private and in similar industries at similar scales blah blah blah and one went public and one didn't go public and then they watch what happens over time and they build a cohort of those and look at the data and it's like R&D spending goes like this they're lowering a lockstep and then one goes like this bit and they go like that guess which one was public and which one was private investment in employees and you know employee well-being guess which one is public and private in equality between senior leaders and the ground level employees guess which I mean it's just it's like clockwork behaviors and you know at some point we just have to say as a as an elite group of people who have a lot of influence over this enough this isn't right so I am Jim Bankoff of Vox media as I've always wanted to be yeah and we're like you're having a nice week it's wonderful it's thrilling every day is a party and we're thinking to go in public which is not something I'm actually announcing what would be different between being on the New York Stock Exchange and the long-term stock exchange how my lived experience as a CEO of a public company be different sure so let me say some things that would not be different just as important for people to understand first of all liquidity in your IPO will be the same the stock cell trades on all the same places at trades today so you're not sacrificing anything and the rules are completely compatible such that you could even do a list gym between NYC and lt se you don't have to just pick one or the other so we've tried everything is possible to de-risk make it as easy as possible for people to do the right thing but ask CEOs today who have taken their cup of public company recently affect how much you're gonna have some on stage someone actually asked them this question what's the biggest difference you've noticed in your lived experience from when you were private to when you're Republic the answer you will get if people are being honest is I've asked this question hundreds of times the answer is always gosh now everyone's looking on their ticker to see what the stock price is today every employee has these short-term stock options they're like a receiving antenna from this incredibly noisy nonsense so imagine that you could present to employees a different view of the stock price where you could say hey listen let's zoom this out and look at what really matters for example did you know that although the stock price is down 10% today none of our long-term investors have sold so guess what nothing happened your net worth did not actually change today especially if you combine that for example hypothetically speaking with much longer-term compensation instruments for managers so we've tried to embody a variety of reforms along these principles of long term as a multi-stakeholder you know good for so what is your power over this yes so I mean I could you can tell your employees whatever I mean not whatever you want their rules but well that's actually the issue but this is a key thing like what what power does a stock exchange have to change a company's behavior yeah so Matt Levine has this great I'm sure many of you know his his column great line that today everything is securities fraud securities fraud is like the one crime that corporations can't commit so the key to corporate corporate reform is to have companies make binding pledges to do things that violating those pledges would be securities fraud that's that's the power of a listings body so sock exchanges are standard-setting bodies but the standards have generally speaking been lowered in order to drive more trading volume so we've tried to build an exchange whether it is a different business model that's not all about trading when we can actually enable companies to say yeah we actually will pledge to do the right thing in the following ways and we'll get into the board governance and the employee conversation and the disclosure and the you know the beat and raise game and all this stuff I don't know how much time we have to get into the legal minutiae it's a little boring you can read our SEC filings or hundreds of pages long if you need trope if having trouble sleeping you can read them yourself but those pledges are serious if you make them in the context of a listing standard so that's the reason why we think having come as go public on an exchange that it's dedicated to this matters there give me an example of a pledge that a company might make that would then become securities fraud to violate sure so hypothetically now I have this newly highly regulated financial institution that I that I lead so I could be a little careful what I say but just hypothetically speaking one idea under consideration you could do would be to do something like say look there are certain compensation instruments that we know they're like the toxic waste of exec CompUSA we have many of them in our coalition say what drives you crazy about how companies are run I met a guy once he said to me I'm the person whose job it is to receive the call from Investor Relations that the CEO needs a new plane so we're doing this one-time one-off bonus thing that no it doesn't make any sense but we're just doing it and what are you gonna do about it you're in an index you have to own our stock anyway haha so there are certain kinds of company and if you talk to managers and you say hey I noticed that your company like completely destroyed all of its R&D this year like around November 30th what was going on we all know what it was the CEO or the CFO somebody had an E bit bonus that year and a bi end of year we have to hit certain targets and if we're not on track for that like god help us it's just absolutely destructive of company value creation so you could pledge to say we are not going to use those compensation instruments our executives will be comments they're only out of longer-term more value aligned instruments we're going to another pledge you could make we're gonna reward our long-term investors we're gonna know who our long-term investors are and then we're gonna reward them for being long-term partners to us and and on and on so each of those pledges each of those like operational mechanics it's all step in the direction like I said at the beginning making the kind of stakeholder metrics the the long-term value creating culture oriented metrics as important as financial metrics so when I talk to the folks who study corporate behavior they place a lot of this on culture yeah they've placed a lot of this on the idea that number one CEOs and upper management have different idea of what they owe their workers will they owe their communities than they did 50 years ago there is a different market for CEO is a more generalist market you were just talking about the moment where all of a sudden CEO has another offer on the table there's not this kind of loyalty yeah that we're not seeing a problem of stock exchange structure which many of these companies were on the NYS EE or we're seeing a cultural problem first I'm curious how much you agree with that but second what are the cultural tools one has to change that yeah well this goes back to my work you know on lean startup people people who study innovation and management Theory like the evidence is super clear that culture eats at rack culture eats X for breakfast but for all X culture is a progressive like the end of the day what is culture culture is the behavior that managers do when they're not being told specifically what to do when they have discretion over their action agent because nobody's looking or there's no metric for it or just they have the power to do what they want culture is what determines that and culture is everything in companies but I my experience having helped a lot of companies transform and having built a lot of new companies and helping them like create a new culture is that culture can be changed through material actions it's not this like weird intangible incentives the process choices that we make the public commitments that we make those really do shape culture not to keep going back to the academic research public who I'm sitting next to it's important to think about like this evidence that manager and especially CEOs they really boards especially they want to be seen to be doing a good job that's actually an incredibly powerful incentive especially given that many of the people involved are already independently wealthy and so the extra money they're going to make from whatever they're doing like has no actual real effect on their life in any tangible way but you know they see it as a scorecard they see it as like a way of validation and winning why do all these billionaires like write books why do they go on TV and run for office and do all this additional stuff that's designed to get them agile ation and praise you know you've got some of them here so you can just ask them but I think a lot of it has to do with the idea that people want to be seen to be doing a good job so a lot of this is not actually about the mechanics of a stock exchange and you know all the like wonky stuff that we talk about a lot of it is simply saying look for the long term oriented investors who really care about this issue and the CEOs who want to be seen to be their advocate and Ally can we create a way for them to actually be seen to be doing a good job and to say in this market in this place in this time in this year we're going to change what it means to be a good CEO change what it means to be a good manager to be someone who actually takes care of their people that has a positive impact in their community and that actually creates value for the long-term otherwise we're all in big trouble so I'm curious how the ideas of the exchange connect the ideas of lean startup when I was starting box I went around talked to investors and actually coupled them like the shoveling started in my house and at the risk of oversimplifying that book on tight measured loops the ability to say okay we tried this we validated it this way and now we're gonna move yeah and something I found when I was editor-in-chief of ox was that there were a lot of things I cared about that I couldn't measure and that I could take us in directions that would violate our values if I was too dogmatic about only managing what I could matter and so I'm curious how you think the the cult of measurement and metrics and and and and managing against metrics connects or conflicts with short-termism yeah this is a really interesting paradox and I I had to write a whole second book to try to resolve it which you can all go go out and read if you want if you want the 300 page version of the argument I'll give you the short version you would think that in a company that was intensely short-term metrics driven quarter-to-quarter like everything is buttoned down a highly disciplined that such a company would go fast at everything it does but if you actually study companies you notice that those behaviors actually slow everything down they'd become bureaucratic and slow why whereas the companies that have a reputation we're going the fastest right the Alta worldwide cycle time leader someone like Toyota with Toyota Production system they have this incredibly long term oriented philosophy that you would think would make people go slow why is that I think the resolution of the paradox is as follows if you have if everything has to be measured quarter to quarter if you only can do the things that you can measure then there's two kinds of projects in the world that you need to do there's projects that fit nice and neatly into the one quarter boundary and can be measured in one quarter and then there's other well we know we have to do some other projects like we need to billion pull in a new IT system we're gonna do sales course our sponsor isn't we're gonna do a Salesforce implementation or pick your favorite IT vendor every company I meet is either in the middle of creating like adapting to or unwinding their Salesforce deployment so and knots not to pick on Salesforce that's true for almost every IT vendor there's just always one of these not monster IT projects going on at any given time some of you lived through it maybe okay now that's it clearly in other we can't implement Salesforce in just one quarter but then in if it's an other how do we hold people accountable for doing a good job most managers are like hey I got an idea if I can figure out a way to move the accountability for my other project out a year or two I can probably get promoted out of this job before the thing ever comes due and we won't get into them the economic like the way we allocate resources and entitlement funding this is a whole other part of my life this is how companies are structured where budgetary decisions ultimately make things political they make things slow and bureaucratic and it's this consequence of not having a way to hold people accountable to the things that really matter now this is true and the tiniest startup up to the biggest enterprise that metrics are there Lean Startup iteration Minimum Viable Product pivots all that stuff it's there to support vision not to replace it the purpose is that when you're in that like flat part of a hockey stick with something new we need to find ways to figure out what are the leading indicators of future growth that help us know that we're on the right track and that's why we say lis serve as a scientific theory right that it's it's trying to help people with a hypothesis if you don't have any hypotheses just like well just throw whatever at the wall stick do whatever will make the metrics go up you'll be selling pornography in no time but that's not really where you want to wind up so now to connect this back to public markets and how we hold companies accountable and the kind of the bigger picture we have to create a framework for companies to say here are what we believe are the leading indicators of our future growth so that investors can be well educated because today here's what happens usually a company says hey we're gonna do this big new initiative and it's gonna cause all this growth you know blah blah blah that one year from now two year whatever it is and then dots I thought time elapses and the growth didn't materialize now for an investor there's two possibilities one maybe the company did not competently execute the strategy and so I got to get out of that stock this guys are terrible or maybe they did competently execute the strategy but it was just the wrong strategy going into China's not as easy as it seemed on paper at our headquarters and whatever you know town X USA but we both thought it was a good idea at the time it was competently executed actually this is the moment of maximum learning that we could use to pivot in a new direction but how many public companies are actually set up to pivot rather than just to you know fire whoever made the supposedly bad decision so we have to recapture that ability to learn and adapt and iterate even in our larger companies or they're not going to be adaptive enough to survive the 21st century you've talked a bit about the need for multiple stakeholders and the this sort of broad view of this whole space is that companies have become too responsive to markets to investors yeah and not responsive enough to their communities or workers the public etc yeah there are other ideas out there to try to bring back multi stakeholder approaches elizabeth warren has put out this co-determination idea to get workers on public boards are there other things that you see I mean what do you think of Warren's idea but what do you think of the ways we can attach companies to to more tomorrow stake so they're able to make other kinds of decisions without it seem like a violation of people they're meant to serve yeah we have to we have to pick discrete mechanisms that actually share power and prosperity with the people who are affected like it's easy to see in the case of employees yeah employee representation on boards like in the tech industry at least we do things like we have pretty much a universal practice of relatively long term equity ownership for employees but then why doesn't that extend to our big economy workers the same logic of wealth creation that makes someone an employee owner should make them I won't say any specific company's name gig worker equivalent owner but you can all see why that's totally logical why isn't that considered obvious like so again that's like maybe that's a cultural thing nobody's thought about it but actually having I've talked to a lot of those companies a lot of it is just like well what is the mechanism by which you would do that our securities laws make that illegal today so what do we do about that but then you're like well what if we actually thought of a creative solution to that problem to you know I've already talked about board structure like most boards most public company boards today become all about audit and compliance the actual product strategy is often completely absent from the discussions like that's not an intractable problem what about a board committee tasked with long-term multi-stakeholder strategy setting what about assigning each board member to one stakeholder that they would be responsible for advocating on behalf of there's a great new book out called the enlightened capitalists anyone see in this book it's it's it's it's dense it's like 400 pages of case study after case study of people trying to reform capitalism over the last hundred fifty years through the kind of mechanisms we're talking about in failing then it's basically like they're always every everything is totally doomed and it's actually very helpful book for those of us that actually want to reform a system because we have to look at these kind of half-hearted measures that people have tried in the past and see why they were not holistic they didn't involve employees and managers and investors all aligned so just like one example there's one devastating story in the book about a founder of a company that are really different it's a different culture and you know I happen to have been an intern there years ago when I was a kid anyways coming that the founder had led for 40 years and then you know late late in his life there was a boardroom coup they kicked him out of the company they forcibly took the company public and on his deathbed he laments the fact that it didn't occur to him to insist that the board members shared his vision and philosophy of running the company as a condition of board service so like we could view that as a depressing story of this poor guy but all like I was like hey I'm a collector of corporate governance that is I was like hey how about we make the board sign a pledge every board member in the selection process you have to say that you support this multi-stakeholder way of running the company you have an obligation to continue it and for the nation for the founders that's a really powerful idea because I always ask them when you're dead you know except for the ones working on the on the immortality startups everybody else is planning to die and have their company outlive them so what will the next CEO do and so like we're not gonna have a hereditary monarchy right it's a most companies are not gonna inherit their dual class emperor like control and pass it on to their kids to run the company so then what's the plan so yeah that it's like a lot of ways to have a foundation be involved in governance and have foundered vest control not that's a really good one obviously this idea that there can only be like the founder 10x voting class and then everybody else the peons with no voting power like that makes no sense we should have more of a constitutional republic where there's citizens of the Republic who have voting power and people can become citizens and then then we can have different rules for the tourists or just trading in other stock so there's a lot there's a lot I guess what my message for everybody would be this is not an intractable problem this this problem was not handed down to us on stone tablets that effort always been this way our grandparents would be looking at us and saying what the bleep have you done with this beautiful system we built for you like we gave you the tools to reform it and change it if you want we have to actually take them up and do something about it all right Lyle you lighten capitalist it is your turn we have a microphone right there we got a microphone I believe in that area Yeah right there folks should come up and ask Eric their very best questions yes sir I don't know about a very best question but a lot of pressure on you right now 110 outside it's the best I can come up with Eric is a former economist I really like what you're doing thank you and I'm a lot of friends on Wall Street who manage money who complain bitterly amongst themselves about how they know they have to do things they don't want to do simply because the alternative South flow of capital can you see a way that a long-term stocking chest can actually penalize short term investors this is a trick question no we would never penalize anybody that's ridiculous to suggest such a thing however I'll tell you I just I'm gonna answer your question with a story I always once having lunch so when I first I conceived this idea for long term stock exchange in my book which came out in 2011 so I've been working on this for at least nine years and I first I didn't know anything about public markets capital formation was a phrase I'd never heard in my life before I became CEO of a stock exchange and I was going around everyone I knew say hey could you teach me about economics could you teach me about stock exchange you know anybody who invest in public markets I would talk to anybody and one day I found myself in New York and I was having lunch with two guys one guy ran a quantitative trading firm and one ran a long only fundamentals hedge fund and so the the quantitative guy was bragging to me that he had managed to get his average holding period for a public equity of his traders down to 10 minutes so like if he had to vote a proxy that's like you go fishing and you pulled up a boot it's like oh for God's sake my ten minutes of ownership overlapped with a governance thing like this is terrible the guidance sitting next to him who was in the long-only fund he's like that's interesting we haven't done any trades this year we we bought all the companies we like last year and we think they're also pretty good we see I think we think everything's are overvalued so we just we haven't traded at all and he was looking at him like you did what do you do you're sitting on your office what do you people do and I said to the guy he was really like upset at this conversation it's not the long-long guy and I were obviously I'm very much on the same wavelength and finally I was like listen just do a hypothetical for me imagine a day in the future you're having a really good day you engineered a synthetic short against a company and now the stock is down 10% he was like oh yeah you could see he was like that is a good dog he's like oh I'm tell me more about this story I'm like okay do you realize that the next day 10,000 managers who work at that company are now running around like chickens with their heads cut off trying to devise a new strategy for the company because it's a crisis and he was like what are you talking about that's stupidest thing I've ever heard I was like we they work these that why would they do that he said well that from their point of view the market is down and there's a problem it needs fixing so that's so stupid when I short cattle futures the cows don't care so there you have it to him governance is not something he wants to be involved in this is companies are just a number on a screen he could care less so what actually it's not penalizing him to say he shouldn't have a role in governance he was like hallelujah it's not my thing but let me just play my numbers game and leave me the governance to somebody else our world is run by sociopaths yes that's not news is it we didn't we didn't break news did we there Jesus yes hi my name is not Karis I work with IBM we're investing a lot in artificial intelligence catching a lot of flak for it yeah I have a question about how the your long-term stock exchange addresses all of those issues they're very important and just to give you some background I worked at Apple from 2001 to 2015 and the first three years I worked there the company was described as beleaguered we had two three years of terrible earnings we caught flak every quarter for investing massive amounts of R&D thank God our CEO at the time Steve Jobs said a few I don't care I'm investing the money yeah and fast forward that's how things like iPhone happened how does your long-term stock exchange help with all the ails that you've talked about because we don't want necessarily government regulation we are a capitalist society so how does how does that address the ails yes so I can't answer that question in any kind of short way because I have to use regulatory approved language and so let me try to answer it you know as best I can in the in a short in a short way imagine two different companies that we know we're otherwise similar but ones making really doing the right thing and investing in R&D and the other is just basically setting money on fire and calling it R&D from their financial reports how could you tell the difference between these two companies as an investor like this is not a hypothetical these are real-life I have to know such companies I happen to have read their quarterly reports and like I mean it's extremely difficult from the financial metrics that we used to have any idea who's actually making investments for the future in the long term the definition of R&D spending under GAAP accounting is not helpful can we say that so you have to like know how to read the footnotes or the quarterly reports and you can sort of figure it out but imagine if when you made your quarterly report front and center right there on the front page is like the most important things and investors need to know about whether this company is in fact making long-term investments or not like do does anyone really feel like the company that is setting the money on fire is gonna give it thrive and do better in that environment and one that's run by Steve Jobs I say no Eric Ries y'all thank you all very much thank you [Applause] you [Music]

Channel: Recode

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Keywords: Recode, Recode.net, Recode by Vox, Code conference, Code 2019, Vox Media, Silicon Valley, tech, The Phoenician, eric ries, long term stock exchange, ezra klein, recode conference 2019, code conference 2019, eric ries interview, ezra klein interview

Id: x6DYUanRdGE

Length: 32min 9sec (1929 seconds)

Published: Mon Jun 10 2019