Liz Cheney in Conversation with Jonathan Karl — Oath and Honor: A Memoir and a Warning

[Music] thank you I think you have a receptive audience here uh I apprciate thank you Tom and uh thank you to the uh to 92n such a great institution it's an honor to be here uh with you with you Liz Chen well thank you great to be with you and and your book we have just learned yet another week as number one on the New York Times bestseller list congratulations so a lot to get to regarding the book this is also like a a a pretty Monumental news day a lot has happened in the world uh today this week just yesterday we had a former president of the United States uh who's currently running for president again in court arguing that presidents enjoy absolute immunity for anything they do uh as president interesting argument um which we will get to and then just before we came on the stage we we received news that Chris Christie has dropped out of the Republican presidential race yeah um and I want to start there because in his announcement in New Hampshire that he was dropping out he said something that um sounded a lot like I think I've I've heard from you he said anyone unwilling to say he is unfit meaning Trump anyone unwilling to say that Trump is unfit to be president is unfit to be president well now there are two candidates standing yeah and both have said that they would support him even if he is convicted of a felony yeah um well first of all it's wonderful to be back again uh at the 92nd Street Y and and wonderful to be here in conversation with you John and and the work that you've done on all of these issues has been hugely important and uh your uh all of your books but uh in particular uh but betrayal and tired of winning the last two I highly recommend everybody for understanding sort of what it really meant um to cover Donald Trump and the kind of person he is and and uh an inside look at all of these details and issues um the uh it's a fundamental um I think probably uh potentially unrecoverable problem for the Republican Party um that uh we've had so many candidates and so many leaders reflexively uh say they will support Donald Trump if he's the nominee and you know it's a some of the people who do that are clearly operating in the way that Republicans and Democrats have always operated it's sort of like the Party Loyalty is you're going to support the nominee of your party um obviously when you know the potential is that the nominee of the party um is going to be somebody who attempted to seize power um and uh overturn an election uh do all of the things that we know Donald Trump did uh it it's not an acceptable answer to the question so I'm I'm sorry to see that Chris Christie is out of the race uh I think it's important for all of us whether we're Republicans Or democrats to commit ourselves to speaking the truth and to demanding that of our elected officials as well what does it say now with Christy gone that there is I mean ASA Hutchinson's still running but um but you know there's there's no other major candidate left that is really willing to take him head on as another thing he said today is they are not campaigning to win not campaigning to defeat Donald Trump they're campaigning not to offend him um that was the way Chris Christie was defining it yeah I mean I look I think this is something that we've seen certainly from the party uh over the last three years and um there are a whole bunch of explanations for it there are probably different motivations for different people and why they're doing it but um if you if you think about sort of who really believes what Donald Trump is saying uh among elected Republicans it's an extremely small number uh there are far more who know what he's saying is a lie who know the danger that he poses but who've decided that they're willing to look the other way um in order not to offend him uh in order to maintain their own you know political positions and and we've seen this in other places around the world you know Donald Trump's tactics are authoritarian and we know that authoritarians can't succeed alone they have to have enablers they have to have collaborators and history will judge those people but but that's what's happening it's a it's you know people who are willing to collaborate with the person who's you know launched an assault on the foundations of the country well I I want to get to how we got to that point I think your book uh which is is a very valuable piece of History because you document Your Role uh throughout this incredibly consequential time and you document it with reference to your real time notes text messages emails and and you were the Republican conference chair you were a Republican leader but not just a Republican leader in Congress you were the Republican leader in charge of confing convening all the House Republicans so you have a particular vantage point so I want to find out how we got to to that point but yesterday there was a moment in court which I don't know if we could ever have imagined before where you had first of all a former president sitting there as an observer but his lawyer arguing that he canot be prosecuted for a crime for anything remotely tied to his duties as president unless he is first impeached and convicted in a senate trial what what what did you what did you think particularly of the of the example that was given yeah if he had called a a Seal Team Six strike to assassinate a political opponent right and the lawyer said no he couldn't be prosecuted unless he was first impeached and convicted in the Congress well I thought that it was a very important and effective question um to highlight the the impact of the position that Trump has taken and and I you know I think if if you imagine a situation where a president does such a thing and then immediately resigns and you know having resigned uh there are many people who would then argue well he's not in office so he can no longer be impeached and convicted and so you end up you know and we saw this argument with respect respect to the January 6th impeachment uh where um you know there are many senators who said well what Donald Trump did is terrible and and you know may warrant conviction but I'm not going to vote to convict because he's already out of office and and there's no constitutional Authority I think that's a wrong reading of the Constitution but it's a completely unsustainable and and I you know I think lacking in any basis in the law or the Constitution and and I think it's a it's yet the most recent example uh that requires all of us as Citizens to commit that we won't become numb to that and and to make sure that we're you know talking to uh friends and family and spreading the word that you know yes we we hear every day more outrageous things from Donald Trump and more dangerous things from Donald Trump we have to take him literally and we have to take him seriously and we these are the things that um you know tell us who he is in addition to the actions that that he's already taken and we that's not who we are as a nation I mean the other thing about the absolute immunity argument the way it was outlined yesterday which is again unless a president is impeached and convicted it means if there are 34 Senators right refusing to convict him in a senate trial he can do whatever the hell he wants yeah no I mean look it is it is uh it's an unsustainable argument um I'm I'm confident that it won't Prevail uh but but I think there it's also important in addition to sort of how dangerous that argument is it's important to think about what Donald Trump's doing you know uh he's doing everything he can to delay this trial and it's not just sort of the actions of a defendant that you know you normally see this is because he wants to suppress the evidence because he knows the people who will testify against him aren't his political opponents they're the people who know him best it's people like his white house councel and you know the uh leadership of the justice department and probably the vice president um you know these people who know Trump best who were there with him um on the day and in the days leading up to it who told him his claims were false um who told him that what he wanted to do was illegal and unconstitutional those are the people who will be on the witness stand in this trial and Trump does not want the American people to see that evidence to hear that evidence before they vote it's a very important point because you before the January 6 committee brought forward first of all virtually everybody you called as a witness was a republican there were a few that weren't but almost all of them were Republicans and they testified under oath a number of things including that by the way none of them saw any evidence of voter fraud yeah uh enough to change uh uh the the election um but Jack Smith has been able to talk to people who refused to talk to Dan scavino his former golf caddy and manager of his Twitter account which made him maybe the most powerful person in the West Wing not maybe I mean scavino described Trump and he was with him because of course you have your Twitter guy with you while the capital is under attack he was with him throughout the day on January 6th um and he Prov Ides the ABC News investigative team we had a story out on this just this week yeah we we know that he has according to our sources has testified to Trump's behavior during those hours that you had that incredibly dramatic hearing about but now this is not Liz Cheney recounting it with um you know with with the people you were able to talk to this is Dan scavino right who still works for him by the way yeah I think it's and and what what you all have reported that scavino testified who confirms and corroborates what we had heard as well um you know one of the moments in the select committee hearings that I thought was was crucially important was when we were questioning Pat seone and he was very careful about privilege he didn't want to convey or you know talk to us about conversations he'd had with the president but there was a moment when we asked you know who uh who in The West Wing did not want the mob to to leave the capital and and it was clear it was everybody everyone wanted them to leave yes everyone wanted them to leave except Donald Trump except one person well you followed up with the followup it was a very it was a very dramatic moment you said including the president he's like like well no I yeah right yeah I mean and I not no but I just can't talk about what he said but I mean it was it was no and it the other thing um extraordinarily extraordinary by these are all of the people there and scavino describes this scavino describes himself going into that dining room off the Oval Office begging him right uh to do something to call off his own supporters and he describes Trump as being fixated on the television watching literally Fox News live coverage of the attack on the capital and um being non-responsive to the people who including scavino and Mark Meadows and the lawyers who are begging him to do something this is this is the portrait you described but here you have it somebody that is there and this is what you're saying Trump doesn't want to see on the stand right the other point and and this is in the select committee report but it hasn't gotten as much attention is um you know we had testimony that he was handed the note that said that there had been a civilian a civilian shot at the door to the house chamber um one of our Witnesses testified that he saw the note sitting in front of Donald Trump on the dining room table and even then even then he continued to refuse to tell people to go home home so the the level of of just depravity here um really can't be can't be overstated it's very significant Nick Luna who was his personal assistant carried you know another one of the you know body guy the guy that carries the bags for the president um also testified to Jack Smith that um he informed Trump that Mike Pence had been evacuated to a secure location yeah and he says that the president's response to that were two was two words so what yeah well and and you know your interviews with Trump included uh audio uh of Donald Trump suggesting you know when you asked him if he was concerned about the Hang Mike Pence chance uh he said well it just was common sense so this all goes to you know what this trial will be what the American people will see and why Donald Trump is so desperate to to prevent that as long as he can do you think he'll be able to delay long enough that it effectively pushes it past the election uh I I certainly hope not I think that um we've seen the courts be you know seized with the urgency of the matter and and look it just can't be the case that in the American system of justice a president can do what he did and not face accountability not be tried for those actions until after the next election I mean that that's not a functioning judicial system so um uh you know I'm I'm optimistic and hopeful that uh that he won't be able to continue to suppress this evidence as long as he he hopes he will okay I want to get into the book there was one thing that really struck me as I was reading it um and that is you talk quite a bit particularly in the first part of of the book talking about the uh the the period right after the election of 2020 and you talk about an obscure Republican congressman from Louisiana I think his name was Mike [Laughter] Johnson yes and it's it's important to point out that when you wrote this he was an obscure congressman from Louisiana right and by the time it was published he was the speaker of the house yeah yeah but tell talk a little bit about the significance of Mike Johnson and why you spent so much time talking about him um I I I spent a lot of time recounting in detail as as you point out the role that he played both in urging Republicans to sign on to this very damaging Amicus brief um and also in objecting to the electoral votes and and I spent so much time on it because I really think it you know the the example of of Mike Johnson he's somebody who uh was a friend of mine somebody somebody who seemed to be uh committed to operating in good faith and then as we got into this period of time it was clear that I'd been completely wrong in my assessment of him and that he was willing to do things that he knew to be wrong uh in order to try to convince the Republican colleagues for example uh to sign on to a brief that was full of assertions and allegations that uh about fraud across a number of states that had already been rejected by lower courts um that he would misrepresent what the brief was but but I think perhaps most concerning and most you know urgently and immediately relevant is you know Johnson explained that his view was that he could determine um because he felt because he was convinced that that certain States had violated the Constitution that he could then decide he was going to throw out the votes of the citizens of those States and this is so dangerous because of course in each of those States um courts had heard and rejected those claims uh the process by which the votes are certified had been followed the governors of the states had certified those votes and sent them to Washington and there is no basis in the constitution for the house of rep representatives to Simply determine because they have a feeling that the Constitution's violated and therefore install the person they want as president and and that's exactly what what Johnson's position was and and frankly continues to be and I think it's it's why it's so important for people to recognize the danger that we could face if Mike Johnson and the Republicans are in the majority on the next January 6th the the the the amas brief that that you wrote about and that he was trying to get everybody to sign there are a couple very important points about this one is as it was sent around to your Republican colleagues in the house it was set around with an implicit threat right it was I'm going to share the list of names who sign on with the president he is very eager to see them by the end of the day today yeah um and and it was particular I mean the lawsuit pretty incredible because it was the it was the state of Texas asking the Supreme Court to throw out the electoral votes from five other states that Biden had won yeah and it think about that it was and and uh in in the case of each of those States the brief itself made these assertions about fraud that simply weren't true and you know I I took about I don't know 20 or 30 minutes to read the brief I was alerted to the brief by other members who said you know Johnson just sent this thing around and he's threatening people um you know is this a leadership initiative um and then I took 20 or 30 minutes to read it and then got in touch with him and I said you know look this makes assertions about facts that are not true that have been dispensed of with dispensed with by lower courts and I also said to him I thought it raised serious ethical issues for anybody who was a member of the bar to sign this brief you're submitting this to the court claiming that you have knowledge of these facts um about which you don't and and which aren't true so uh Johnson was on television on Sunday and he said that you initially were considering signing that brief now I know you pretty well and I I heard him say that I mean I mean you were not consider sign no yeah I look a lot lot of things surprise me I mean that that one was that was that's pretty I mean that would surprise me so no I mean look it uh and again uh you know this was it was very clear that what he was doing was was wrong and and was unconstitutional and I had actually not just been in touch with him but Kevin McCarthy's own lawyer um had expressed the same concerns and had written analyses of this this brief that made clear that you know what Johnson was attempting to do was breathtaking and certainly not something that that should be supported in fact you had your own memo a short while after that that I think was a very important document I told you at the time I wrote about it in betrayal um you wrote a memo to the entire Republican uh house membership um warning about the dangers of objecting on January 6th I think it was dated January 3rd 3rd or 2nd yeah and um and and you know it went through Case by case but but but the the the big picture thing is it as you were it's not up for congress right right to usurp the right of the states uh uh to to certify their own their own electoral votes yeah it was I felt it was necessary because we were getting questions from Republican members about two big things one was what's really happening in the courts because of course you had the Trump campaign making these claims and so I thought it was important to walk through the major decisions and frankly also to point out that in in a number of these cases where the courts had rejected the claims the judges had been appointed by Donald Trump so this wasn't a situation where you know this was a partisan review by any means but I also thought it was important to explain to people what our constitutional responsibility was um and and look I I again I think what's happened now sadly is because the majority of Republicans objected in 2020 2021 one that has become a precedent now and you're already seeing Johnson stefanic others saying well you know we're going to have to see as as stepanic said we'll have to see whether or not the election is legal and valid and and it that's that's tyranny if Congress decides we're only going to count the votes um to certify an election if you know the person that we wanted wins that election okay so your memo didn't um convince the majority of your colleagues uh and the majority did in fact go through and voted to object but I want to ask you because you write about it quite vividly in this book The the objection started before the attack on the capital before they actually came into the building I should say yeah uh then the capital is evacuated Congress has to go out of session um dramatic scene we all know you come back in session at 8:00 the evening of January 6th and then you in the interim you're you're you're going to your colleagues who had objected and you're saying look you may have disagreed with me before the attack on the capital you can't disagree with me now I mean for the sake of the country yeah we have to be unified now and yet they all voted again including Kevin McCarthy yeah and and that was one of the most to to to to throw out electoral votes right and and there so uh when we were evacuated I was on the phone with Kevin we were still in the ways and means room and he told me I said all right we got to get back into session he said yes that's the plan he said I'm going to make a speech uh I think he he said I'm going to make a speech about America and unity um and and we're not going to continue to object so I hung up with him and I went out into the larger room again and I told his general counsel listen I just talked to Kevin we're going back into session we're not going to continue objecting and she said to me hm she said you know Jim Jordan just told me that he just talked to Kevin and Kevin said we are going to continue objecting and and I you know my I thought well Jim Jordan's lying like you know it wouldn't be the first time so um but as it turned out um Kevin had been lying and uh continued you I was sitting on the floor of the house list to him speak and this is you know the capital is the glass is still shattered the the you know the the capital had been under attack um had just been cleared and certainly certainly that's the moment for leadership and the moment to say we're going to come together as a nation we're doing our duty Joe Biden has been elected president we're going to count those votes but but that's not the decision that that Kevin made so I want to ask you about a decision you made days later which was to you put out a statement saying that you would vote to impeach Donald Trump and I've said this to you before I think this statement became the thesis statement for basically all the work of the January 6 committee Beyond uh so I want to read it's not a long statement so if you don't mind I'll I'll read the uh you say on January 6 2021 a violent mob attacked the United States capital to obstruct the process of our democracy and stop the counting of presidential electoral votes this Insurrection caused injury death and destruction in the most Sacred Space in our Republic much more will become clear in the coming days and weeks but what we know now is enough the president of the United States summoned this mob assembled the mob and lit the flame of this attack everything that followed was his doing none of this would have happened without the president the president could have immediately and forcefully intervened to stop the violence he did not there is has never been a greater betrayal by a president of the United States of his office and his oath to the Constitution so how I I I how did you have that Clarity at that moment when so many others did not I mean that and you said in that statement we will learn much more in the coming days and we did learn much more but none of it deviated from what you wrote in that in that statement on January 12th yeah um you know I um I knew and and I remember as I was you know being evacuated with my colleagues down the steps out of the house chamber into the tunnels under the capital while the mob was attempting to get into the chamber at that moment I knew Donald Trump must be impeached and he must be removed from office he was obviously then still in office and I viewed him as a a clear and present danger to the nation so my view was immediately then there was no question um and the truth of the matter is if you go back and you look at what you know my colleagues were saying both privately and publicly uh I was not the only one who believed that and and interestingly uh if you look at the there was a resolution drafted by a number of House Republicans on January 10th to censure Donald Trump and the language of that resolution is almost identical to the language of the article of impeachment in terms of laying out what Donald Trump did so there was widespread agreement that he was account he was responsible um that uh it had been a violation of his his duty and you know you had some members arguing well if we impeach him it will just simply further the division in the country people making the ass the the Judgment that yes he was wrong um but but we shouldn't impeach but even most of those people understood fundamentally that this this isn't to America it's not who we are and it's it's it's intolerable conduct from a president um and I think part of the story of this period of time is what happened how quickly we went from a real almost unanimous understanding of what had happened to people being willing to embrace Donald Trump and and bring him back into the fold I mean that centure resolution is a very powerful resolution that lays the blame squarely on Donald Trump for what happened and condemns it one of the the primary reason it didn't come up for a vote is Democrats didn't want it to come up for a vote because they didn't want to give Republicans and out without voting for impeachment right well and uh impeachment is the Constitutional remedy right you know there really is no there's nothing in the Constitution that says if he commits High crimes and misdemeanors you know you can censure him impeachment is what's provided for in the Constitution and I course you could vote to censure and impeach I you could vote Yes on both resolutions you could um but uh in my view there simply you know the the centure resolution didn't have any basis in the Constitution and and I talk in the book about uh discussions I had with chip Roy from Texas for example who you know he he texted this to me he said he had read the centure resolution but he kept coming back to the fact that yes Donald Trump did all these things and those are impeachable offenses now of course and Chip gave a very important speech on the floor of the house um but he didn't vote ultimately to impeach you write that in a just World those are your words in a just world the January 6 committee is investig vations and the criminal prosecutions that followed would be the end of of Trump's era and that quote Donald Trump and those who aided him would be scorned and punished so that has not happened within the Republican Party obviously what what is that I mean that's a this a difficult question but what does that mean you said in a just world right this would have happened are we not in a just World well I think that what it means is that you know the elected leader ERS ship of the Republican party has demonstrated they can't be counted on to defend the Constitution and and you know the fact that that's where we are is a um is a really stunning thing um but but I think it also goes to the the obligations that we all have which is um not to look away from this uh not to um not to think well it's just it's too uncomfortable it's too difficult um it doesn't matter you know every single individual has a responsibility uh to stand up and and with your vote and with your voice uh to make clear that this can never happen again and the person who did this can never be anywhere near the Oval Office again you you also write about going to Kevin [Music] McCarthy and urging him to you know take a stand on Trump's behavior on January 6th and asking him to think about how past Republican leaders like Ronald Reagan George Bush your father Dick Cheney would have reacted to what we all witnessed on January 6th and Kevin McCarthy tells you this isn't their party anymore now that's a case where he's telling the truth yeah yeah no I mean um it this was after a press conference where it was actually the last press conference that we ever did together uh where he and I were both asked whether we thought Donald Trump should speak at the at CPAC he'd been invited to speak at CPAC this was in February of 2021 and Kevin said yes he should I was standing behind Kevin And the reporter said to me asked me what I thought and I said I don't think he has any any role to play in our political process going forward which brought a very quick end to the press conference and you went One Direction McCarthy went the other I mean the visuals are very uh yeah um but it wasn't a surprise that that was my view but but it you know it was after that uh when you know Kevin was essentially saying to me you know why did you disagree with me at this press conference and and I was trying to convey look this is this this matters this is about the Constitution and um and I I think what he said was true um but it doesn't have to be true and I by that I don't mean this needs to be a party that looks backwards but it does need to be a party that Embraces the Constitution and part of the lesson of this period of time was too many leaders sort of view themselves as bystanders or as sort of just kind of rioting on the wave of of opinion and you know people would say things to me like well but the opinion poll show the majority of Republicans think the election was stolen well they showed that because you know these same people were telling them that yeah and and so I I think you know the obligation and the duty of elected officials um to understand they have to actually influence events and and not Sort of hope someone else is going to come along and and do the hard work I mean there have also been polls recent polls showing uh a significant minority of the country believes that January 6 was a quote inside job that the FBI was somehow uh behind it so I want to ask you and I want to get to to questions shortly but I I from the audience but I want ask you about something that the person who replaced you in Republican leadership said just a few days ago Elise stonic referred to the people that are in prison right now because they attacked the capital of the United States many of them who confessed their crimes most of them who have been convicted of their crimes uh as hostages yeah yeah look there's no bottom right I mean um it's uh thank uh the idea that individuals like Elise would would think that they can claim to be members of the party that respects law enforcement of a party that respects the rule of law and then call these people many of whom brutally attacked police officers on that day call them hostages and and and again you know but the this goes to the obligation that we all have because people do that because they think it's going to help them politically and there there are millions of Americans many of whom have been betrayed have been lied to who believe what Donald Trump has told them um others who are doing this for personal gain but who are going to work really hard to try to ensure that that that message resonates and that they have electoral success and and that's why none of us can sort of sit back and and and accept that rhetoric or become numb to how disgraceful that really is but you know Alisa stonic you know Alis stonic why why yeah do you think that she called them hostages she doesn't that does she no um look many of us who have known Elise and who've worked with her over the years um have spent a lot of time sitting around saying like what the hell happened here um and you know I I I don't know except that it you know it's a lot of Craven ambition but it's so much crave and ambition that you sort of start to think like as I said there's no bottom okay so before I get to the questions here are you running for president just quickly not right this minute I I'm a student of of these answers that didn't not sound like a definitive no um but but like I you obviously it's a little late to run for the Republican nomination um there's an opening there's an opening um um there is this no labels uh movement which a lot of Democrats see as something that's a real threat to Biden um and a way to get Trump elected um but which the people behind it say is is a reflection of the fact that most of the country wants somebody besides Trump and Biden what do you make of that effort you know I think that um I think it's important to to be able to assess that effort to assess the potential for an independent candidacy once we know who the nominees are and I think it's going to be Trump and Biden but think a based on your your deep yeah think there's a deep yeah this took a lot of like real look I mean I think that's the most likely outcome but but we don't know that for sure yet true and and I think there's a tendency before we know and maybe after too but there's a tendency sort of you know to to say oh my gosh third parties never work independent candidacies never work um I'm going to do whatever is necessary to beat Donald Trump and uh you know uh and it it we'll see so you think Nikki Haley has I mean nobody's voted yet I mean I would in all seriousness I would say that we've seen surprises we've seen major surprises in Iowa and New Hampshire and in in the Republican primaries I mean it wouldn't it's not inconceivable that she could win oh I mean nobody's voted yet so um so we'll see and and I also I mean you mentioned some of the polling that we've seen recently about people's attitudes toward January 6 for example and what gives me hope in those polls is the vast majority of Americans um understand what happened don't want it to happen again understand who was responsible so while the numbers of people that you know say they believe the lie is disturbingly high it's nowhere close to a majority uh of Americans and I I fundamentally believe that for most American voters deranged criminality is not a positive um so we have some questions um uh I'll just start with the one at the top of the list uh you are a mom how was your decision to stand up against Trump and Maga impacted your family if given the choice would you stand up again knowing what you know now yeah I mean in in so many ways um my decisions throughout this period I think always but certainly throughout this period have have been influenced by by being a mother and um you know there was one one moment in particular where we were having uh dinner my husband and I with our two youngest uh our two sons and and I this was right after January 6th and I remember looking across the table at my sons and and having this sudden realization that you know people that are in our generation you know every American frankly until now has grown up being able to to take for granted the peaceful transfer power and um my the idea that my children that our children would suddenly not be able to take that for granted um was a very chilling thought and and I think wanting to ensure that our kids live in Freedom um is is not just my obligation as a mom but I think all of our obligation as Americans not not to let this slip away and and the fragility of this moment the fragility of our system um is a very real thing and and it can very easily slip away so what I'm hearing you say both right then and also in your book and I've been hearing you say for a while is you are going to be engaged in this election whether or not it is running as a third party candidate or actively what campaigning for for Biden I mean is that a possibility I'm going to be I'm going to be engaged in this election cycle to make sure that people understand the danger um to make sure that independent voters don't you know find themselves and look I I say this as somebody that has a lot of objections to Joe Biden policies in a whole range of areas what we have to make sure is that you don't have a situation where independent voters in particular who get frustrated with Biden policies think well I'm just going to you know go with Donald Trump that they somehow view him as the lesser of two evils because he's not not and and I think making sure people understand that danger I'm also going to be engaged in races that are down ballot in helping ensure we don't elect election deniers um and and again I think it's important uh that the Republicans not have the majority in the House of Representatives in 2025 I mean the other thing leis stonic said the other day was that she wouldn't commit to certifying the certified results from the states in in the next election um another question the audience that needs to hear your message aren't coming to 92 and why I know why you would say that um how do you propose this message gets to middle America and to people who need to hear it yeah look I think um it's a couple of things first of all I think it's understanding that no one you're not going to be able to convince everybody and and you don't have to convince everybody but but um recognizing that you know fundamentally the majority of Americans know this is a good country the majority of Americans know that we need leaders you can look up to um that you know I don't I don't view these as as partisan issues and um you know one of the one of the saddest interviews that I have done over the last month or so was on Fox News and and you know I was a contributor on Fox for many years um and uh you know you go there now and and you know there's a sense of among many people um people would sort of come up to me quietly and say thank you for what you're doing thank you for what you're saying um but I I think that fox has played along with a number of other media Outlets a very a very dangerous role in perpetuating the former president's Liv and people believe what they see on Fox people believe what they hear the former president say but but but those can't be the only voices out there you know I I want to ask you something else that we could have a whole another conversation which is the January six committee one thing that really comes out is the role of women in women who worked for Trump who had the courage to come out and to tell their stories While others weren't you know Cy Hutchinson uh Sarah Matthews Alysa Farah Stephanie Grisham who was the at one point the press secretary she resigned on January 6 two of the cabinet members that resigned elain chow and Betsy deos women why do you think that is yeah it's it's um it's it's fascinating and I think it's really important um and the the these women who and and they're young I mean they're you know Cassidy and Sarah are the age of my my Waters um and and I saw this also among Hill staffers you know young people who worked in some cases for members that were very prot Trump but but you know who recognized immediately that this this uh behavior is is unsustainable that this is wrong and I think um both with respect to women but also all of the people that we saw stand up against Trump uh people like Rusty Bowers um people like Brad raffensberger um people who did the right thing people at Trump's justice department uh and there was tremendous pressure on them and a lot of them have really paid a price they paid a huge price you've paid a price and I think but I I think that's where that the lesson of that is individuals really matter and they make a big difference and you know the kinds of people that were around Donald Trump in his first term who prevented him from some of the worst that he wanted to do will not be around him in the next term uh if he were to be reelected again and and so when people sometimes they say well you're catastrophizing the potential of another Trump term um but but he's told us what he'll do and you know he said that he will have in office people like Mike Flynn who you know in December of 2020 suggested that Trump should use the military to sees voting machines and rerun elections in swing States um we also know that if Trump is elected again he'll refuse to enforce and abide by the rulings of the courts and that is something people also really need to think about the only the only reason that we we are a nation of laws the only reason that our the rulings of our courts have authority and and power because our chief executive enforces them and so if you have a president and and this isn't based only on what Trump said previously part of it is in the AR the arguments that we heard yesterday when you you listen to Trump's lawyers talk about the power of the president and um if you have a president who will only enforce judicial orders if he agrees with them then you're not living in a nation of laws and and that is one of the most dangerous things that that we would face if we were to have a second Trump term well he the argument probably won't Prevail as you said that he made yesterday but he argued that a president is above the law right quite literally that should tell us something about right how he'll approach yeah his time in office if he gets back I mean that's that's the thing about this moment that we're in we don't have to guess and and like you don't have to take my word for it you know look at what Trump is saying look at what his lawyers are saying look at what the House Republicans are saying I mean every time any of these people gives an interview you know they they tell us what they would do and we need to believe them um as I mean one of the themes of of my book is betrayal is is is the way that he is going to try to get retribution against anybody who opposed them I imagine you're pretty high on that list um uh almost at a time I'm going to do I'm going to combine two and you can answer very quickly because it's a very easy question please explain why the Republican Party leadership ship failed to articulate a message that was more compelling to Republican voters than Trump's and the related question how does the Republican Party rebuild itself you have 30 seconds um you a few more thanks okay yeah um well with respect to the first I think it it was not about messaging it was about um you know becoming willing hostages to Donald Trump and and it it's we've seen it in other places these are aarian tactics he's using I was very surprised that it would happen in the United States I was surprised that members of Congress that I thought I knew well that ID worked with for a number of years that that so many of them turned out not to have the character that I thought they did um but but it also you know it tells you how dangerous the moment is because if you you know well the Wall Street Journal for example recently suggested we don't have to worry about a second Trump term because the checks and balances of the Congress and the courts will protect us I just explain why the courts won't do it and if you think that a Congress made up of people like Mike Johnson and Ted Cruz and you know JD Vance and Josh Holly and Lee stonic they're not going to stop Donald Trump so so the notion that the institutions will protect themselves if the people you know uh don't is is absolutely wrong I think that I think we're going to have to either rebuild the Republican party or have a new party that arises um I think that's going to have to happen after 2024 um for now uh we have to be focused like a laser beam on keeping Donald Trump out of the White House on protecting the country from that threat but but you know I'm a conservative and and I I believe that the country has got to have have two parties that are based on substance and policy so we can have the debates we need and and I you know every day that goes by that the Republican Party continues down the path it's on uh makes it less and less likely that that it can be sustained or that it should be sustained but but after 2024 we're going to have a a huge rebuilding or building job to do you you've talked about obviously the dangers of the leading candidate for the presidential nomination you also just a short while ago said that we have to work to ensure Republicans don't get control of the house again do you still at this moment do you consider yourself a republican um I'm not a trump Republican obviously that's fair that's a that's a news break news flash we've got our news yes um but you know look I'm uh I believe fundamentally in the principles the party was built and and based on and uh and I'm going to work to make sure that you know again whether it's this party or another one that that that that kind of of party exists um but but I I I think you'd be hardpressed to defend not hard pressed you cannot defend uh what the party of today what the leaders of the party of today uh are doing and and putting up with and and enabling all right Liz Cheney we are out of time thank you very much thank you to the 97 so much thank you great thank you thank you thank you all thank you thank you thank [Music] you

Channel: The 92nd Street Y, New York

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Id: 0T7hEbWgUcI

Length: 51min 51sec (3111 seconds)

Published: Thu Jan 25 2024