LIVE: Former President Donald Trump appears in court

Special Report now reporting David Muir good afternoon we are coming on the air as the nation witnesses an historic moment in Washington D.C a first in U.S history a former president criminally charged with allegedly working to overturn the results of a presidential election at the special counsel alleges Donald Trump knew he lost there you see Donald Trump obviously emerging from his plane it has just landed at Reagan airport in Washington he will now head to appear in federal court for the arraignment to answer for the first time to criminal charges stemming from the special counsel's investigation into attempts to overturn the 2020 election the former president traveling today from Bedminster to Washington this was not quite the return to Washington this former president had envisioned for himself this is Donald Trump's third criminal indictment but these are the most serious charges that he or any other president has ever faced the former president's motorcade will now take him from Reagan airport right there in Washington of course through the streets of the Capitol to the e-barrett Prettyman U.S federal courthouse it's just blocks from the White House and the capitol ABC News has learned that once he is there he will be fingerprinted but not photographed or handcuffed and then he will take the elevator to a second floor courtroom to be arraigned before a judge as you all know we have been reporting here it was just two days ago late Tuesday special counsel Jack Smith filed his indictment of the former president alleging Trump knew he lost his re-election bid but was determined to remain in power and that he allegedly engaged in a months-long conspiracy of lies and actions to change the outcome of the election Trump faces four felony charges he will answer to today count one conspiracy to defraud the United States count two conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding also obstruction of an attempt to obstruct an official proceeding and then count four right there conspiracy against rights now this involves denying voters rights to have their votes count to have the actual results certified there in Washington now the indictment claims that the former president targeted a Bedrock function of the United States federal government the nation's process of collecting counting and certifying the results of the presidential election the indictment also describes six unnamed co-conspirators who we should point out at this point are not facing charges but of course that could all change as we move forward here the indictment alleges that Trump and the co-conspirators created fake electors in quote seven targeted States compelled quote the justice department to conduct sham election crime investigations that he pressured vice president Pence to quote reject legitimate electoral votes and send supporters quote to the Capitol to obstruct the certification proceeding and to exert pressure on the vice president again you're looking at live pictures this is the motorcade taking the former president now from Reagan airport where he just touched down a short time ago to that federal courthouse in Washington D.C today's fighting is of course the second Federal Criminal indictment stemming from Jack Smith's months-long investigation and we always try to remind everyone here that these were grand juries jurors who looked at the evidence gathered in both of these cases and handed up indictments in June Donald Trump pleading not guilty to what is now a 40-count indictment involving his handling of classified documents after leaving the White House last week the special counsel filed what's called a super seeding indictment essentially additional charges adding three more charges against Trump alleging Trump himself got on the phone that an aide then secretly traveled to Mar-A-Lago walked through a tunnel with a flashlight with mar-a-lago's property manager to find the surveillance outside the storage room where the classified documents have been placed to erase what was on the server also charges for that Aid and the property manager at Mar-A-Lago also for the alleged efforts to delete the surveillance which by the way because of employee number four in that superseding indictment when that employee was approached allegedly saying I don't believe I have the right to do this that's why it's believed Jack Smith has surveillance actually that was not deleted from Mar-A-Lago we should mention the trial in that case is set to take place in Florida next spring that's next May right in the middle of this race for president Trump also faces criminal charges in a separate case in New York City as you know in March a Manhattan grand jury indicting him on 34 felony counts of falsifying business records those charges stem of course from hush money payments before the pivotal 2016 presidential election so let's carefully take you through what we're going to witness here as a country today we're watching the motorcade now taking the former president to Washington and we have been on the air here at ABC covering each one of these uh indictments but legal observers watching this case say this is the one that makes history not that the others aren't heavy that the others aren't important but this one alleges a former president for the first time in our history tried to overturn an election that he knew he lost I want to bring in our chief justice correspondent Pierre Thomas who is watching along with me right here at the desk in New York with the rest of the team and Pierre Jack Smith's motorcade we also learned just moments ago making its way to the courthouse it's believed the special counsel will be right there in that courtroom today just like he was in Florida we anticipate that he will be in the courthouse to witness the proceeding and to in some cases look Donald Trump directly in the eye David um suffice it to say this is the most consequential case the justice department has ever brought it was not taken lightly according to my sources that the special Counsel had to come to the conclusion that Donald Trump was a criminal president that at the end of his presidency faced with Lucy he got information that he lost and the special counsel and as you pointed out on Tuesday locked in on the notion that Donald Trump was allowed to make false claims he was allowed to go to court to make the case that he won but the moment the moment that he used the power of the presidency to try to stop the certification of his rival Joe Biden to become president that this became illegal and that is a key Point here Pierre because what the special counsel it would seem is trying to do here is to take away a key part of what Donald Trump's defense will likely be that he is constitutionally protected that speech is protected but Jack Smith essentially is saying in this speaking indictment is that you're right your speech is protected you could even make false claims but the way you fight it is through lawful means and he said which is what the former president did and was unsuccessful repeatedly and in many of those cases with Trump appointed judges absolutely the the fact that former president Trump went to Court after court and was rebuffed and the other thing that sources are pointing out when you read the indictment the special counsel takes great care great care to expose the notion that Donald Trump was pursuing the notion of wide-scale fraud in state after State and in Time After Time For example there's a case in Georgia where ten thousand votes he said were put forth by dead people but in every case the people in a position to know would tell him Mr President that is incorrect it's false so they said he had no reason to suspect that he won let's listen to this for a moment from the control room if we can bring up the audio on this motorcade in Washington for those of us who have covered Washington and presidencies we know the familiar sound of the Sirens from presidential motorcades though it's quite surreal to hear it play out in this scenario Aaron kutursky is at the federal courthouse in Washington as we watch these live pictures of former president Trump's motorcade take him to that Courthouse where he will be arranged just a short time from now we have just learned that the former president is alone in the motorcade this is how it played out in South Florida in the classified documents case and again today to imagine what must be playing out in his mind as the former president returns to Washington and again this Courthouse not far from the White House and actually just Steps From the capitol as well Aaron take us through what we expect to play out once the former president arrives former president Trump David is now approaching a courthouse where Watergate defendants were prosecuted and as soon as he arrives he is going to see a scene of protesters both for him and against him across the street protesters have been blaring music and and the Pledge of Allegiance with a giant speaker set up across a Pennsylvania Avenue and he is going to be immediately taken to the second floor for processing as a criminal defendant his fingerprints will be scanned he'll have to give over some basic information his social security number his address but at no time is he going to be in handcuffs and there's no need for a mug shot we're told because the former president David is already one of the most photographed people in the country so after this quick bout of processing he's going to be taken into a courtroom that's normally used by the chief judge in this District he's going to appear before a federal magistrate enter a plea of of not guilty and he will be seated with two Attorneys at the defense table John lauro who was only recently hired by the former president after he received a Target letter formally informing him that he is a target of the investigation by the special counsel and by Todd Blanche who's been with him for indictments previously otherwise it's the two of them the former president there are are others in the motorcade political advisors legal advisors but as you say David he is riding to this Courthouse alone extraordinary to Imagine John Carl we know this route very well ourselves you know he's crossed the Potomac now past the Jefferson Memorial on his way back to very familiar territory for him he'll be just a couple of blocks from the White House where obviously he served for four years was hoping he would serve longer Steps From the capitol where the scene played out on January 6th and where the country witnessed the January 6th hearings but again some of that evidence that they uncovered perhaps the foundation of this indictment but the indictment goes much further Jack Smith has shed light on things that we did not know and one of the main questions going into today is just how much more what did Jack Smith hold back that is a key question as we watch this play out over the next several months just last night his former Attorney General Bill Barr said that he believes that Jack Smith held back quite a bit I know that I had big questions going into seeing this indictment one of the big questions that I had is what about Mark Meadows no person spent more time with Donald Trump during on January 6th or in the days leading up to it as his Chief of Staff Mark Meadows we've heard very little from Meadows over the past several months we know that he's talked to the special counsel we have no idea what he's had to say what his level of cooperation is and there's very little in this indictment that sheds any light on that so there are it's just one example of of questions that we have one thing that is new in here uh is the testimony of former vice president Pence as as you recall Pence refused to talk to the January 6 commit City he I challenged the special counsel's right to interview him in this case at least in regard to his duties on January 6 and the special Counsel had to uh had to fight in court to get to compel Pence's testimony um so there you know we see some very interesting things in this indictment from Mike Pence's testimony but but there's a lot else that you know we know that he's looked at that we don't see in here that we have yet to see from Jack Smith and again you'd point out that Mike Pence one of the things in the indictment of course the contemporaneous notes from Mike Pence that have been handed over to Jack Smith and we're now staring down at a potential trial where Mike Pence the former vice president will be the star witness in the federal criminal case against Donald Trump allegingly alleging that he tried to overturn an election uh that the special counsel says he knew he lost as we look at these live pictures I want to bring in John Santucci who has covered Donald Trump for us for years as a candidate then president now a candidate again and John when you hear that the former president is traveling alone in this motor Cade take us into uh his thought process and what's played out so far today and the other question for you John people at home are really going to want to know does the former president understand recognize the weight of what is playing out here today we know what he's saying publicly but privately does he understand the weight of this well David I'll I'll go in that order with you so on the latter question to you uh he absolutely understands uh the weight of this I think Donald Trump was stunned stupefied was the war word I heard when that Target letter arrived just two weeks ago to his lawyers late on a Sunday night this was the case David that he was told repeatedly this is not going to hit you don't worry about this one so the fact that these charges were brought the fact that Donald Trump is heading to DC right now Donald Trump himself truly from what I hear David cannot believe it now as far as Donald Trump's day today rather routine as one person said to me we're kind of used to it at this point Donald Trump waking up this morning in Bedminster New Jersey playing a round of golf getting off the course doing some campaign calls because David as you and I both know he is a candidate for 2024 and then getting dressed getting in that motorcade and by himself Again David which as somebody else noted to me uh he enjoys that ride by himself and I said well how does that make sense Donald Trump likes talking to people and they said well for this you have to understand it's a little moment of actually reflection for him he doesn't want to be bothered during these times which for a guy as we know we've all been around Donald Trump David for many years now Donald Trump likes feeding off the people around him he likes asking people for their opinion so to think that he's alone right now yet again every time we do this David we say it's astonishing but yet again the word is valid it is just astonishing that is striking to hear from some who are close to the former president that he actually enjoys uh traveling alone uh what John Santucci just reported here but also that the former president certainly knows the weight of what is playing out today in fact uh John had reported before along with the rest of our team that the former president believed charges were coming in the Mar-A-Lago case but thought somehow that they would skirt charges related to trying to overturn the election related to January 6th that somehow that would not happen but once that Target letter arrived it was painfully clear to them that charges were in fact coming Martha raddatz our chief Global Affairs anchor I wanted to get your reaction to something else John Santucci just said that even the team around the former president has become somewhat used to this you know immune to the historical weight of what it is we're watching you were there on January 6th and I know it's something you and I have talked about for quite some time that the hope that as we report uh these moments in history out and it's our aim to report them as fairly and you know as steadily as possible that the country doesn't become immune to what they're seeing because you certainly witnessed what you saw on January 6th and you've also traveled the country since and and you're fully aware that there are many voters out there who still believe that the election was stolen absolutely David and and as I watch that motorcade and think about what you just said that he will be near the capitol uh he just passed the Jefferson Memorial he has the Washington Monument in his view but most of all the capital the whole country watched that I was there I saw the chaos I saw the violence but so did Donald Trump he watched that from the White House about 187 minutes from the time he gave a speech to when he finally tweeted out for people to go home he watched all of that and that is part of this indictment that the president fueled this I talked to an official uh the next day who said look I listened to that speech and Donald Trump gave all those people the green light but you go around the country I remember in Wyoming last year and and talking to a man he said oh no one no one was hurt it was fine they were just protesting and I pulled out my phone and said let me show you some videos from that day and he actually said oh oh maybe I should take a look at that but there are others who who will say no matter how many people have been prosecuted no matter how many people have been put in jail that it doesn't really have anything to do with Donald Trump when I was writing up to the Capitol that day and and hollered it some people as they were approaching the capital I said they breached the capital they breached the capital and they'd say well we we have to do what we have to do telling me in in instances that they were there because Donald Trump sent them there and there were armed people according to testimony that they thought were in the crowd at Donald Trump's speech and yet that continued and yet Donald Trump said uh give them how stop this deal Martha raddatz watching this play out with us here today as well Martha thank you the former president is headed to the same Courthouse where more than a thousand others a thousand others have now faced charges for their role in the January 6th Capital Siege today's proceeding will be overseen by a federal Magistrate Judge maxilla upadaya she'll oversee this case but look at this this is the judge who will then we just headed up on screen we can show it again judge Tanya chuckton she's an Obama appointee she will be the judge who will be overseeing this case once it's in full swing if you will she's already tried a number of January 6 cases she's already handed out very stiff sentences in these cases related to January 6. in one case in December of 2021 saying quote it has to be made clear that trying to violently overthrow the government trying to stop the peaceful transition of power and assaulting law enforcement officers in that effort is going to be met with absolutely certain punishment that quote from Judge chukton who will be presiding over this case not today but once the case moves on from here you don't need me to tell you that as we look at these live pictures here today that all of this is now playing out amid the 2024 presidential election just as it begins to pick up steam the former president by far the leading Republican candidate for his party's nomination some 37 to 40 points ahead of the closest Challenger on the Republican side Ron DeSantis he also is being challenged by who I mentioned will be the star witness in this case if this goes to trial Mike Pence his former vice president who just today is now selling merchandise based off of what was in the indictment and I believe the control room has an image of this but t-shirts and hats that say too honest in that indictment the president is quoted the former president Donald Trump saying to Mike Pence leading up to the certification that Mike you are too honest and Mary Bruce who is our chief White House correspondent covering the race for President we saw that moment with Mike Pence being pressed by voters for his role not supporting him but instead questioning him saying because of what you did that day we have Joe Biden again this point that there are still many voters in this country who believe Donald Trump's words uh leading up to January 6th Dave in fact according to a new poll out today from CNN about 70 percent of Republican voters republican-leaning voters still believe that this election was fraudulent that Joe Biden did not legitimately win the presidency that is the environment in which this case is now playing out and Mike Pence is in an incredibly difficult situation here he is long maintained and did so just in the last 24 hours that he was fulfilling his constitutional Duty by going ahead and certifying the results of this election and he has ramped up his rhetoric I wouldn't call them a tax because he's not necessarily going that far but we have seen harsher comments from him in the last 24 hours against Donald Trump saying Anyone who puts himself over the Constitution should never be president of the United States He is though arguing that history that voters not the court should hold Donald Trump accountable and that is an argument that you are seeing repeated by other Republican rivals on the campaign Trail David this is a very delicate dance for Mike Pence who continues to say yes that this should not be playing out in the courts that the American people should decide yet he's selling merchandise today off of the fact that he was in the former president's words quote uh too honest and as we look at live pictures we'll come back the moment we see the former president we'll stay with the live pictures but in addition I want to show you this uh question I asked Mike Pence because this goes to this uh question uh that will be debated but that Jack Smith contends that Donald Trump knew he lost the election and so I had asked Mike Pence in his first interview about January 6th I asked the former vice president did you tell Donald Trump Point Blank we have lost here here's what he said did you ever point blank say to the president I will not do this I will not intervene we lost this election I did David many times foreign so let's bring in our chief legal analyst Dan Abrams because this will be part of what the defense goes to what was playing out in Donald Trump's mind as Jack Smith tries to make the case that it wasn't just Mike Pence it was a multitude of people who were very close to the former president and the former president himself who knew they lost and that's the critical piece here when you're talking about the Witnesses in this case they're going to be Donald Trump's Inner Circle those are the people who are going to be the critical people testifying in this case it's not going to be a bunch of Democrats coming in and saying oh Donald Trump was wrong and uh we we were blaming him from day one this is going to be people who either worked for Donald Trump worked with Donald Trump supported Donald Trump those are the key Witnesses and Mike Pence is certainly going to be one of those star Witnesses and I think I think it's entirely fair to say that he's going to be the star a witness particularly on on one of the counts right because remember there are kind of differences nuances but between the counts here right one of them is with regard to the fake electric scheme right and Mike Pence will be a little less important with regard to that one he's more important with the effort to try to stop the election from being certified on January 6th on that one Mike Pence becomes a critical witness and when you're evaluating these two legally you know you hear people say well Free Speech First Amendment Etc that's a much tougher argument to even make when it comes to the fake elector scheme right because there you're talking about a fraud right a group of people getting together to try to perpetrate a fraud on the United States by suggesting that people in various States Republicans were the actually duly elected electors when they weren't documents being sent in paperwork to the United States that's a very different case it'll be a different defense and so when we talk about all these charges I do think it's a legal matter it's important to separate them out because there will be different evidence and different defenses and different Witnesses who play into each one of those counts and as you point out for example the the fraudulent electors the fake electors uh Mike pencil pay a lesser role in that argument but one of the things that we were on the air when the indictment was released just two days ago that John Carl if my memory serves me correctly pointed out uh first was that this is an example Dan of where they have direct evidence involving former president Trump being part of this notion to create fake electors alternate electors from seven key States and they needed that right it can't just be well Donald Trump was pleased about what they were doing and he was thrilled about it there has to be evidence that he was leading it that he was making calls and that's what the indictment says is that he wasn't just a passive recipient of Good Fortune he was the one who was is leading according to the indictment this effort to create these fake electors they call them alternate electors these fake electors in these different states that's you know on that one if they have what Jack Smith says they have which is Donald Trump making the calls Etc it's almost a harder defense I mean look this is all going to be a tough defense I think but that's almost a harder case to defend than the one with regard to January 6 where Donald Trump will say I believed it I fought it um I was just trying to advocate for what I was being told by my lawyers was our legal rights when it comes to the fake electors it's tough to figure out like how you can say I thought it would be okay for us to send in these documents with people who were not the duly elected electors being named as the actual people who should represent the state that's really fascinating Dan and I want to I want to ask you for a follow-up to what you just talked about because you hit on another key part of what will likely be Donald Trump's defense and this is on the language in front of the American people in the weeks leading up to January 6 and of course that morning uh you suggest and and it's not a leap because his attorneys have also suggested this already that Donald Trump will say well wait a minute I believe this you know I believe that there were fraudulent things going on with this election and it's really fascinating that in the indictment Jack Smith says he has every right to say that publicly Jack Smith says go ahead you have the right to say that you have the right to actually spread lie eyes but what you have to do is fight what you believe is fraudulent through lawful means and in the court system which Jack Smith says is exactly what Donald Trump did and he lost it's the conduct right not the words it's the conduct and they're going to have to show legally that he knew that what he was doing was corrupt was wrong and they believe that they have enough evidence to do that it's not going to be enough for just a witness right to come forward and say well I told him I told him that that he lost that's not in and of itself Donald Trump could say yeah but all these other people told me that there was fraud going on in this state and fraud going on in that state and my lawyers were telling me that I had every right to challenge this on January 6th that's why it becomes so critical what the evidence is that he knew that he'd lost he knew and that's where your interview with Mike Pence is important people like Mike Pence telling him no this thing is over I'm being told that I have no autonomy here there's nothing else that I can do here and that's going to be one of the big fights here so I think the defense when they talk about freedom of speech and first amendment is more a political defense I think the legal defense is more this is what was going on in Donald Trump's head he was accepting the council he was getting from his lawyers he was accepting other people's accounts of what was happening and that's why he did what he did and the legal defense is what matters here yeah but his lawyers are citing this first amendment I'm just saying it's not it's it's a little bit of a frivolous argument to suggest that oh it's freedom of speech I mean this is what Bill Barr his attorney general said last night he's right which is any fraud involves words right just because you use words to commit a crime it doesn't mean oh it's all protected by the First Amendment you can still commit crimes with words I mean think about conspiracy to commit a murder right Hitman Go and kill that guy that's not protected speech but this question of what he knew and what he believed is an important one I think that there's one very Crystal Clear example in this indictment of of where Donald Trump was saying something publicly not only that it was false but that he knew was false and it's directly relevant here and that's regarding what Pence was going to do on January 6th he goes through chapter and verse and details some of these meetings that had been previously reported and talked about that Pence has spoken about all the times leading up to January 6 where Pence had told him Point Blank I don't have the power to do what you are asking me to do you are asking me to single-handedly overturn the presidential election during what is only a ceremonial role in this proceeding and Pence told him over and over and over again that he couldn't do it and after one particularly contentious meeting on January 5th where Pence said I can't do it I will not yes I will not do it Donald Trump puts out a statement and and Smith cites it here puts out a statement that we all saw that night where Donald Trump said the vice president and I are in total agreement that the vice president has the power to act and that is not what was going on and Trump knew it was not what was going on and of course so you can't say he believed it because he he didn't he had he knew that it was false and the key person the other part of that conversation is Mike Pence who also shared that moment uh with me fully aware of of what he said to his boss on that day which is what he had been saying is you just pointed out John for weeks which is I will not stand in the way of the certification of this election uh you're looking at uh a moment from the indictment there but again these are live pictures in Washington DC as we are on the air today we know that the former president is now inside that Federal Courthouse Aaron kutursky is standing by outside the courthouse Catherine falders our senior reporter with our investigative unit is inside the courthouse the moment she emerges with color from inside we will go to her in the meantime Aaron uh what's the belief right now as to what's playing out the former president's motorcade went underground into a parking garage David so we did not physically see him enter but we know he's in the courthouse and his first stop is to the U.S Marshals for processing as a criminal defendant a process that he's familiar with because he's done it twice before in two other courthouses fingerprint scanning turning over some personal information and then he'll be brought to a second floor courtroom for an arraignment outside and the former president may have seen this on his way to court there are supporters and detractors of the former president gathered including someone you may be able to hear shouting into a microphone dressed in a revolutionary war costume he has been singing and shouting for the last 20 or 30 minutes or so and there are people waving flags there's an inflatable Trump balloon there are impersonators a man wearing a jail costume that we also saw when the former president also reigned in Miami Federal court and so with each of these there is is a bit of a carnival atmosphere but I think this one David is is a bit more subdued and that may be due to the location the federal courthouse here is within sight of the United States capital so as the former president's motorcade pulled in he's very much returning to the scene of the crime it's quite a juxtaposition Aaron when you talk about the calmness uh the relatively you know laid-back nature of those who have gathered there today when you think about that being the very root that some of those on January 6 took to get to the Capitol which is just steps from where you're standing Aaron really David this area was overrun with with protesters and as you mentioned more than a thousand defendants have been charged for their varying roles in the January 6th Insurrection at the Capitol and David while the former president isn't charged directly he is now facing criminal charges in part because of January 6th Alina Haba a spokesperson with the Trump campaign and for the former president let's listen in fact on March 17th Hunter accidentally admits that it was his laptop from hell the next day D.A Alvin Bragg indicts president Trump June 8th Alina Haba making the case that this is politically motivated bringing up uh the current president son Hunter Biden and we should point out that we have reported in depth on Hunter Biden and his own legal woes and the Biden Administration they're handling of the president's son um but on this day given the history playing out in Washington we remain focused on this Federal Criminal indictment in fact the first time this has ever happened involving a former president again Donald Trump inside that Courthouse where he is being arraigned on four counts uh related to his alleged attempt to overturn the 2020 election to hold on to the White House even though Jack Smith the special counsel in this case believes Donald Trump knew that he had lost the election of course that will be a key part of the prosecution's case as we've been talking about with Dan here also key is the scheme to set up a fake elector years from seven key States in this country to try to overturn the results Jack Smith making a direct connection through phone calls involving the former president again there were questions about whether or not they would somehow find evidence directly linking the former president to that strategy of putting in place fake electors to represent these states and the actual outcome from the states instead of an outcome that would have given Donald Trump those particular States I'm curious because we hear about co-conspirators Dan Abrams they have not been named obviously through what's in the public reporting and Reporting from ABC News we know who some of them are given the evidence here they have not yet been charged we don't know if they will be how much evidence do you think Jack Smith is still holding close to the vest here well look I think if they were going to charge these conspirators they probably would have done it meaning that's not always the way it happens but in a case like this I would expect that if they were going to charge the other uh co-conspirators you see up there ranging from Rudy Giuliani John Eastman uh Sidney Powell Etc um and if they were going to be charging them I would have expected it now is it possible that they could still get charged yes it is still possible but you know any good trial lawyer wants to to hold back uh something right as a prosecutor you have to turn over something called Discovery you're going to have to let the defense know what the arguments are you're going to make you're going to have to turn over to the defense key pieces of evidence to them but that doesn't necessarily mean that you have to disclose every single argument that you'll make in the context of the case so I don't know how much he may still have in terms of You Know video audio Etc but the defense will know that well before the trial if any of that exists so there won't be surprises at the trial suddenly you know the video shows up and the the defense wasn't ready for it that will have had to have been turned over and what do you make of the judge Tanya chutkin in this case we know that she was appointed by the Obama Administration that she has presided over January 6th related cases that she's handed down very stiff sentences we should point out that that is not uh something that that is characteristic of her courtroom only every uh federal judge in this district has presided over a January 6 case and many of them many have handed down very stiff sentences including Republican appointed judges and judges appointed by Donald Trump yeah look when you look at her background right you know someone who oversaw a public defender's office for example that's not typically who Donald Trump was probably going to want as the judge but the bigger picture question is how much power how much change can the judge make in this case how much influence can the Judge have the most important thing that this judge is going to have control over is the timing it is clear that Jack Smith and the special counsel want to move this quickly it is clear that Donald Trump's lawyer believes that you're talking about a very long process to prepare for trial that's going to be the first issue that she has to resolve and the most important one in the short term is how much time you give the defendant to prepare versus what is an appropriate amount of time to keep this thing moving with voters knowing they have to make a big decision uh in 2024 right does it happen before the 2024 election and does it you know I I initially I thought yes but the number of people I have talked to including some who've practiced in her Court um think that it's likely that it won't oh interesting yeah I mean I I still think that if she decides she wants to move this quickly she'll be able to but what you're going to see is if she starts moving this quickly you're going to see the Trump team trying and appealing as much as possible um any rulings asking for permission to appeal particular rulings Etc in an effort to further delay the case you know it really is this is this is one of these things where there is no way to answer the question definitively you have to let it play out and see how serious is she about moving this really quickly and that you know and that is the ultimate intersection of politics and law I want to bring in Sarah isgar who was with the Trump justice department and Sarah I'm curious how much of an impact you believe the judge could have in this case after the judge judge was selected down in Florida there was a lot of conversation about whether that was too friendly to Donald Trump and something I pointed out at the time was that in fact this can be a problem for a team you know you get everything you're asking for then there's no real issues for appeal here I think Trump's defense team may well see an opportunity with a judge who would otherwise be hostile to them they're going to throw 99 ridiculous motions at this judge to the point that you can get into a sense that all of their legal arguments are meritless but number 100 she rules against them there's your argument for appeal as Dan was saying there's your ability to delay this trial further so she's gonna have to stay on her toes as well and Sarah you're a Observer obviously of the justice system having worked in the Trump Administration the Bush Administration before that it's important to point out as we did just moments ago that all of the judges in this District have presided over January six related cases here absolutely and you know this judge I think has overseen 58 such trials while Donald Trump has not been indicted for the violence related to January 6 the Insurrection at the Capitol like those defendants have these judges are all intimately familiar with what happened that day from a legal standpoint as well so in some sense that's already baked into Donald Trump's trial regardless of what the prosecution actually is charged here and Asha rangappa former associate dean of Yale law school a legal Professor will be checking in with her a bit later for her perspective because the question for so long has been would it be simply the people who showed up and marched on the capitol at the request of their former president uh who was standing before them and saying we must in so many words take back our country we reported on it on on that day but John Carl a lot of people asked will those who delivered that message be held accountable or at least prosecuted for those words and actions the strategy leading up to January 6th or would it be simply the people who you know took action on that day at the Capitol broke Windows took aim at officers who were gathered there and and we saw make their way through the through this the hallways of the Capitol to Nancy Pelosi's office for example uh and in this case um it's a question not only many Americans have asked but even some of the officers who came under attack on that day yeah and then let's look at Kevin McCarthy's words I mean the the now Republican Speaker of the House who was then the Republican leader in the house on January 13th exactly one week after the attack stood up in the in in the well of the house and said Donald Trump Bears responsibility for what happened here it was glaringly obvious that the people were at the Capitol because of Donald Trump I mean they were carrying Trump banners and Trump Flags they draped massive Trump Flags over the Eastern front of the capital right by where they barged through and broke past Capitol police officers to get in the building he was they were there whether or not you think it was incitement as a as a in in the legal sense of that word there's no question that they were there because he asked them to be there and one of the things Jack Smith does in this um in this indictment is he goes through all the times in the weeks leading up to January 6th where he asked people to come to Washington the famous tweet on December 9th teen where he tells people to come and says it will be wild but there were many other examples of of that so yes we've had all these others the foot shoulders if you will but now we at last two and a a half years later have the person that was at the at the you know that was really calling the shots if not the shots in terms of the violence on the hill certainly calling the shots in terms of the overall effort to overturn the election results and we heard it so many times John in covering these cases each one of them and when you hear those numbers you know hundreds and hundreds of cases you mentioned foot soldiers in late terms these were supporters of Donald Trump who uh time and time again said you know we were following the words of our President we were we were doing what what he had asked us to do and quite frankly we supported him uh that was their defense and and we have that moment on January 6 you know there were many moments leading up to January 6th but of course there was what he said that morning and let's listen you'll never take back our country with weakness you have to show strength and you have to be strong we fight like hell and if you don't fight like hell you're not going to have a country anymore and I'll be there with you and of course John also in the indictment even though there are no charges for Insurrection per se but in the indictment they detail how long the president spent in the White House in that room off of the oval watching all this unfold and and not taking action to try to Halt it now it's important to point out and Trump supporters will say this every time that sound is played that Trump also in that speech said for people to be peaceful now it was one line where he mentioned being peaceful and it was many many other lines where he talked about fighting like hell and we have to take our country back but but he did say peaceful but what this document does is it talks not only about what Trump did while the attack was underway which is do nothing to stop it until finally uh at 4 17 that afternoon more than two hours after the capital has been breached the barricades have been have been breached he tells people to go home but even as he tells people to go home uh he says you we love you you are are very special but what Jack Smith does is he talks about what happens after the violence took place and after the capital was cleared of the protesters what did Donald Trump do he continued to in the allegation here in in this indictment try to exploit the violence and take advantage of the chaos at the Capitol by calling lawmakers to tell them to continue to stop try to to stop the certification of the election and David this is important because it's a series of phone calls that are placed by Trump from uh the White House from The West Wing and by Rudy Giuliani his primary lawyer at this point and it talks about at 6 PM remember that the capital is cleared by now he tries to reach out to two United States senators and then from 659 to 718 again the capital has been cleared they haven't started to to re they haven't started the certification process again yet but co-conspirator number one that's really Giuliani places calls to five United States senators and one U.S representative and it goes through and talks about what was said on those calls because Giuliani actually mistakenly left a voicemail message on the wrong senator's phone and in that message he's asking them delay delay delay the proceedings don't let them certify Biden's Victory yet we're still bringing in evidence and the White House counsel that evening Pat cipolloni gets wind that these calls are going on I mean again this is after the riot this is after the capital has been attacked and they're still making this call they're still trying to stop the certification cipolloni the White House counsel the top lawyer in the White House confronts Donald Trump about this and asks him please drop the objections it's over and according to this indictment Trump refused John call reporting out a key part of this indictment which is just one more example of what Jack Smith and his team have uncovered there are several examples of this in this 45 page what they call a speaking indictment written essentially in language that all of us can understand the voters at home across this country he came out before the cameras and asked the American people as he did with the Mar-A-Lago case to read this indictment it has purposely been written in terms that all of us can understand not those of us with a legal degree law degree thank you Dan Abrams though for being here anyway you help us along every step of the way but again John Carl pointing out an example of what Jack Smith has uncovered the question is how much more does he have and and how little is he going to show to make the case and then present through the course of Discovery as this moves forward as Dan rightly points out there's not going to be a surprise for the defendant uh you know the former president once the trial begins but it doesn't necessarily mean that Jack Smith is going to present everything of right now before the American people we do know as you look at live pictures there at the federal courthouse in Washington that Jack Smith the special counsel is in the courtroom he is there a along with the former president Donald Trump and the two lawyers who are going to be seated beside the former president John lauro and Todd Blanche we know the president traveled down with a team of four although in the motorcade itself traveling from Reagan Airport to the courthouse Donald Trump traveling alone just as he did in South Florida that was reported out earlier by our team John Santucci actually reporting out that that is the way the former president prefers to do this in these moments and now there have been a number of them which is another thing to sort of take into account as we witness what's playing out on this day there you see it on the screen there obviously Jack Smith the special counsel in this case from upstate New York went to SUNY Oneonta here in New York before going to Harvard Law we know his legal background tried war crimes at the Hague before being appointed by mayor Garland the attorney general and we know that that appointment came amid the talk that Donald Trump was going to be running for office again running for the office of the presidency again and that's when the Attorney General came out publicly and said we need to distance this justice department from this investigation we are naming a special counsel and Jack Smith was then named on the right hand side of your screen there is the Trump defense team again traveling with several lawyers but those are the two lawyers who will be seated beside the former president the fact that Jack Smith is in that courtroom today not a surprise to you Pierre Thomas but it does signal something important two things again he wants to emphasize to the president former president of the United States I'm the one who did this and I'm going to prosecute you fully before a jury secondly it's a sign of support to his staff that I believe in what you've done I believe in the work of the FBI I'm here to say you stand by the case we're confident in our case you do that it's rare for someone of his level to be in the courtroom at this stage the other thing David that I was struck by as we've been watching this unfold Source said to me when you think about this indictment you have to think about two things number one what happens if things unfolded if the way former president Trump wanted them to what happens if Mike Pence says I will not certify the election what happens if the fake electors are allowed to form and be counted The Source said the country would have been paralyzed paralyzed imagine day after day with piss not certified and the country in limbo and the source that Jack Smith and the team focus on that as well that if this had unfolded the way Donald Trump wanted to unfold the country would have been perhaps in chaos and the other thing is a few moments before we went to air I took the opportunity to give a call to Harry Dunn one of the officers who was injured not injured but injured psychologically by that day and he said he planned to get off work and to go down to the courthouse he wasn't sure if he would be able to get in the courthouse and David I was struck by the fact that this man is still living with the images of that day the fighting that he took part in being called the n-word multiple times that day the tear gas that he described asking the question is this America and the fact that he's still dealing with this and wants to be at the courthouse today really struck me because it's a reminder 140 plus officers were injured that day and what they described as medieval conflict hand-to-hand conflict and distill the personal and emotional toll that that day took we have just learned that the former president Donald Trump is now in the courtroom We Know Jack Smith the special counsel in that courtroom as well we know that two attorneys have joined the former president at the defendant's table and John Santucci you have been reporting from sources very close to Donald Trump what this former president and this legal team is most nervous about yeah David the biggest thing for team Trump right now is the indictment and the unnamed co-conspirators the six of them so David like us like we've been reporting out trying to figure out who it is Donald Trump's team right now has been doing the same thing for the last several days over at Bedminster they've been trying to piece together who the other individuals are and as one source said to me the thing honestly right now God forbid one of them is another Michael Cohen and what I mean by that David is Michael Cohen as we all famously know was Donald Trump's fixer anything that Donald Trump needed taking care of Michael Cohen proudly say put me in I think he once uh described himself as Donald Trump's pit bull that pit bull flipped on Donald Trump he's part of the reason why many of Donald Trump's legal troubles have come to fruition so right now David the problem for team Trump is that communication with some of the folks of the six is still good there's still a relationship with Rudy Giuliani obviously the two of them have been friends for nearly 30 years but with the other individuals David that is a concern right now for team Trump obviously those conversations that we were just talking about with Pierre John and Dan those are the scenes those are the problem incidents if you will Jack Smith's indictment lays it out very clear those are the moments that are a problem and if one person crosses over if you will and says something that could cause Donald Trump even more problems that's when this is going to get serious John I'm curious who you think the Trump team is most concerned about is it Mark Meadows the former Chief of Staff we know we have seen him just briefly in recent days being pressed by reporters on Capitol Hill going into a doorway what did he say to the special counsel what did he say before the grand jury obviously making uh no comment and no one really has heard from Mark Meadows in quite some time which must be one of the examples of people they're most concerned about oh David I don't think anybody could be crossed off that Bingo board and again look at Michael Cohen as an example many people said to me in real time when that started years ago oh we're fine Mike Michael would never go against him look what happened Mark Meadows any of them Rudy I think anyone is a possibility David if anyone could avoid going to jail nobody's going to do it I think the only person that has ever remained silent so far is Paul manafort look what happened he did go to jail it took him several months almost I think two years later to get a pardon from Donald Trump here's the problem in this new world order Donald Trump can't give anybody a pardon he is not the president right now David so if anyone was to fall in line at the end of the day they're left all on their own remarkable scene playing out in Washington DC at this hour a relatively calm crowd gathered there you can see we have some flags flying John Santucci reporting here moments ago that the Trump team uh most concerned about those who could flip uh on the president former president Donald Trump they have tried to engage and remain in contact with many who were in that inner circle particularly in those final weeks leading up to January 6th as John points out the conversations continue with some but not with others which always makes you wonder if you're part of a legal team a defense team what could be playing out with some of those key players Mary Bruce sitting here at the desk with us and Mary the other juxtaposition you know when we think about the crowds gathered on January 6th and now instead in this very same place this is what we're now seeing instead of those who are Marching on the capitol the other comparison though from January 6th is what we heard from Republican leaders in the 24 hours after what we witnessed at the Capitol John Carl mentioned that earlier Kevin McCarthy among those who spoke out most forcefully about what he believed was wrong unjust and that Donald Trump should be held responsible for what played out at the Capitol fast forward to now and a very different message we're hearing not only from speaker McCarthy but from a Republican party as a whole on Capitol Hill yeah they complete turnaround is nothing short of astounding I think when you consider what we are seeing today and what played out in the days immediately after the attack on the capitol I think back to inauguration day Donald Trump left Washington a political Pariah I remember sitting there in front of the Capitol as the ceremony was going on looking up and seeing Donald Trump's helicopter doing a flyover as he left Washington of course not attending that ceremony the first president in 150 years not to attend the ceremonial transfer of power he was driven out of town you saw Republican leaders including Kevin McCarthy saying Point Blank that he bore responsibility for what had happened at the Capitol that day Flash Forward to today and Donald Trump is returning to Washington not in a way that he had hoped clearly this is not his own inauguration he's now being arraigned for the third time in in less than four months but he is returning defiant the overwhelming front-runner in the Republican party with the support and backing of leaders like Kevin McCarthy who are now coming to his defense getting in line with Donald Trump's argument that this is all politically motivated that this is a political Vendetta that this is simply Joe Biden and Democrats trying to weaponize the justice department it is a remarkable turn of events and I have to say you know as a lifelong Washingtonian it's pretty remarkable to see these scenes you know this was a city that like the country was completely rocked by January 6th we all remember the National Guard coming in we remember the barricades that were put up around the capitol for weeks and that is another concern of the Trump legal team here that the jury that they are going to face concerned that this will not be a favorable jury to him that they lived through this personally personally it is very raw for many washingtonians still I want to ask you about the current President Joe Biden who has talked infrequently about Donald Trump uh using his name as it pertains to these Federal Criminal indictments he has talked Loosely about what played out on January 6th it's the among the first key images of the campaign launch his launch for re-election but he hasn't talked specifically about the former president we have learned that this was part of the discussion uh with former president Barack Obama who of course Joe Biden served under as vice president when they had lunch just in recent days and and former president Obama had concerns given the numbers we're looking at in this country right now if we can show the polling uh as we look at this live picture the current polling where it stands from The New York Times this week uh the New York Times Siena poll showing that Donald Trump and Joe Biden if the election were held this week right now it is a dead heat in this country 43-43 you read a little deeper uh into the the data points uh it shows a number of people uh who were not happy with Donald Trump with what they witnessed January 6 hinting that they would not vote from again but not willing not willing to say they would vote for Joe Biden so there is a little bit of room in that polls I know the Democrats will point to although you have to wonder if you're the sitting president this is the third indictment of Donald Trump you have the images of January 6th and you're still in a dead Heap 43-43 and this is why the former president Barack Obama is so concerned well look at face value you would think your political rival has now been indicted three times you would be attacking him on it Joe Biden isn't doing that he is staying far away from all of this because he is well aware that Donald Trump is campaigning off of all of this and Joe Biden doesn't want to say anything that would fuel Trump's argument that this is somehow politically motivated so instead the White House stresses over and over again the independence of this justice department but they are clearly concerns and Barack Obama in a lunch recently reportedly said to to the president you know that he is concerned about Trump's political dominance that's not to say that he's concerned about Joe Biden's ability here in this campaign but that he is concerned about how Donald Trump continues to just soar in the polls and those numbers 43 percent that is a very close very concerning matchup I think for a lot of Democrats so Barack Obama is offering all that he can to help and assist in this campaign he of course is one of the most popular Superstars the Democratic party has to get him out there and help Joe Biden is something that I think the Biden campaign and of course would welcome but a lot of people are wondering how long is Joe Biden going to wait before he goes ahead and attacks Donald Trump on this and of course while he hasn't gone after Donald Trump on this he certainly has been very clear about what he thinks about Trump's role in January 6th the attacks on January 6 playing a prominent role in his re-election campaign Joe Biden is once again arguing that this election is about a battle for the soul of this country and the fact that January 6th is now going to be a dominant topic of conversation because of the way that this case is going to play out I think is something that will Joe Biden certainly hopes will help him going forward a moving strategy day to day I'm sure within the White House and within the Biden campaign how much to say and when to say it but very interesting to hear that he had lunch with former president Barack Obama who suggested that at some point here you might have to engage Mary Bruce thanks for the reporting on that you're looking at live pictures again the federal courthouse in Washington we understand that the proceeding is underway Donald Trump now sitting at the defense table in the middle of his attorneys Todd Blanche and John lauro Jack Smith also in that room our reporters inside the courtroom reporting that Jack Smith could be seen looking across the room to the defendant obviously the former president Donald Trump while Trump was seen Whispering with one of his attorneys Todd Blanche we're told that the former president's hands clasped at the table and we have been reminded in these scenarios of the public version of Donald Trump and what you would expect sort of the bravado the political talking points uh the signals of strength publicly and then when you look uh at those images from inside the courtroom although we don't have live cameras though we'll get sketches afterward but when we have seen inside the courtroom John Santucci that is a much different uh version of Donald Trump and someone who you can see generally in their facial expressions and their body language that they understand uh the weight of of what is playing out absolutely David and we're learning in real time just from our folks that are able to watch that feed Alex Malin and Mike Levine putting out reporting to our team right now saying that Trump has looked around a little bit has talked to his attorneys but has been rather silent reserved and David you know unfortunately with federal court there are no cameras in court as we know but we have seen that image before of Donald Trump at a defense table we saw it at Manhattan that one still image of Donald Trump they're rather quiet rather reserved to Donald Trump David quite frankly most people never get to see but regardless in all three incidents and from our teams reporting they can see inside federal court right now that Donald Trump the Donald Trump that is sitting there taking it all in it all Weighing on him a silent Donald Trump that is the Donald Trump that is the courtroom guy John Santucci describing what we have seen from the former president before although we have yet to hear the full readout of his Demeter inside this courtroom though we uh just heard from John and from our team reporting in that he is flanked by an attorney on each side that he is looking around the courtroom somewhat Jack Smith with his eyes trained on the defendant Jack Smith of course the special counsel the former president before reaching that courtroom was processed that obvious means fingerprints were taken in this case had to give over personal information no mug shot no handcuffs neither were expected obviously we're dealing with one of the most recognizable people in the world and this has played out before uh sadly in South Florida as well a very similar scene there no mugshot no handcuffs because it was simply not necessary I want to bring in Martha raddatz in Washington watching this play out with us as well and Martha just to pick up on this discussion with Mary Bruce a moment ago and the um the absolute reversal of what we saw from Republican leaders in the hours after January 6 and what we're hearing from them now and take that a step further to the Republican candidates who would like to beat Donald Trump for the Republican nomination uh the the very delicate dance that we were talking about earlier that they're playing on the campaign Trail some that have actually said we will pardon the president and that of course includes Donald Trump if Donald Trump becomes president and you just saw those poll numbers he has said he will give a full pardon to a large portion of the January 6th rioters and an apology from the government these are the people who stormed the capitol who broke Windows who beat up police officers who were chanting hang Mike Pence Donald Trump says he will pardon them in fact that is part of his campaign he goes out on the campaign Trail and they run a video and in that video is what is called the j6 choir the j6 choir is 20 men who are in prison right now for January 6th singing the National Anthem Donald Trump is portraying them as political prisoners and again if he becomes president he said he will pardon a large portion of them David some of this mirror is it seems some of the stories you've covered around the world Martha when you travel as our foreign correspondent as well sort of striking when you describe the singing from behind bars and and the promises that have been made should there be a re-election but the larger question here at least in this moment is how the world is witnessing it we know obviously it wasn't just the Nations done by what played out on January 6th the the world was watching that moment the seat of democracy you know the example of democracy the United States uh and and how is this being viewed uh today around the world they they watched on January 6th and were appalled and allies today are appalled as well that a former president who was president at the time this assault on democracy and is is accused of trying to overturn an election this reminds me certainly of authoritarian regimes that we always say oh well maybe he didn't really get elected these are developed in developing countries this is the kind of thing that happens it doesn't happen in the United States but it has happened now I was struck David too I was thinking about this a lot the last couple of days and how the World Views this I was thinking of NATO and they have not yet invited Ukraine for example to be in in NATO because they have a few more steps to take with their government but the number one thing you have to do to be a member of NATO is uphold democracy Martha Raditz with us here this afternoon Martha thank you as always for for your Insight I want to bring in our senior political director Rick Klein who you at home will know from election night standing in front of the uh the the wall if we call it all different things but the but the map and so carefully guiding us through as these election nights unfold and we're we're so I don't want to get ahead of ourselves Rick but at the same time there are a lot of people at home just asking you know the questions that we should be asking on the air which is you know we have a couple of criminal Federal Criminal indictments now and they are significant historic we've never witnessed this before as a country so a lot of questions that we just haven't seen before Donald Trump has answered a couple of these questions you know on a radio show in recent days he was asked Point Blank if you're convicted in either of these cases uh what happens to the campaign for president and Donald Trump was very clear in his answer yeah and and look to Mary's Point earlier Donald Trump has only gotten stronger his beliefs have gotten uh Stronger inside his own party if you look back to right before that first indictment in connection with the hush money payments in New York he was leading the the Republican primary field by about 20 points Ron desantis's closest rival fast forward to right before the first indictment from Jack Smith he was leading by about 30 points as of today according to our 538 polling average he's leading by about 38 points now you can't say this is only because of the indictments but clearly they haven't hurt him politically and the more you see the other candidates feed into the argument that this is a witch hunter this is part of a two-tiered justice system it only strengthens him politically and in fact Republican voters have said consistently in polls not that they think this will hurt him politically they continue to believe that he is the strongest candidate to take on Joe Biden that he is to borrow a common phrase the most electable candidate so the argument the other candidates are making even as it gets sharper his rise might be even stronger because so much of what they're saying right now is fueling that key argument that he is only now enduring these multiple indictments because of who he is and what he is trying to do on behalf of his supporters and we just don't know because again this is Uncharted Territory what a and I don't want to get ahead of ourselves but a potential conviction would do to some of those numbers it is helping the political campaign in the short run we just don't know what it would mean down the line uh given we don't know how either of these cases will proceed I did want to ask you though you mentioned 37 38 points ahead of Ron DeSantis who is the closest candidate behind Donald Trump historically speaking Rick has anyone ever made up that ground no this is this is a larger lead than any candidate uh it realistically can be expected to surrender uh it would take cataclysmic external events for you to normally think now now maybe we see that maybe a conviction or maybe kind of the accumulated weight what I what a number of campaigns have told me is that they're banking now on Trump fatigue but that's essentially hope that's not a real strategy they're hoping that those Trump voters are going to Tire of him worry about the baggage and then look to park their support somewhere else that isn't really a fully formed campaign strategy and that's the problem with so many of these candidates it's also what makes Mike Pence a little bit interesting in this moment as we reported a little bit earlier he's gotten much sharper in his critique of Donald Trump in the last couple of days after the indictment came out now saying flatly that anyone who's engaged in the kind of conduct that's alleged in this indictment should never be president but when you've got a candidate in Donald Trump who is ahead by almost 40 points is that also a gamble on the part of Mike Pence a hundred percent look Pence right now is struggling to even qualify for the first presidential debate just three weeks from now he needs the traction as do so many of the other candidates and they're making these kind of bank shot calculations about how you can do it no one is able to or has proven to be able to defeat Donald Trump head on to the Republican primary and as of now I don't see any of the candidates who actually have a strategy that can get from here to there that's just an extraordinary scenario that recline our chief political director is uh laying out here uh the numbers bear this out from the latest polling Donald Trump by far is the leading Republican candidate in the race for president leading Ron DeSantis the closest uh person behind him by 37 38 points historically speaking no one has ever been able to make up that ground uh it would seem at least so far these cases against Donald Trump these indictments have only helped to solidify his base to make his case and and and you've heard what his argument is which is that the Biden justice department is is taking aim at Donald Trump precisely because of where we are right now in the middle of a cycle the run for president all over again and again we're just in Uncharted Territory as we watch these cases now play out on two different paths these two Federal Criminal indictments the one in South Florida the one that will play out right here in Washington D.C which of course is what you're watching live pictures of right now any moment we are expected to gain more color from the courtroom we know the proceedings have begun Donald Trump has been processed in Washington just a couple of blocks from the White House also just a couple of blocks from Capitol Hill his return to Washington obviously not the kind of return that he was hoping for today in making this trip from Bedminster to Reagan Airport in Washington then the motorcade driving him alone driving him alone on the way across the Potomac past the Jefferson Memorial past so many of those monuments that were a temporary home to Donald Trump for four years as he made his way to this federal courthouse today to answer an indictment the kind of of which we have never seen here in this country before a former president being accused of trying to overturn an election that he knew he had lost to try to hold on to the White House I want to bring in Aaron kutursky reporting out more color from inside that courtroom as we get bits and pieces from our reporters who are inside what have you learned Aaron David former president Trump is seated at the defense table flanked on either side by his attorneys John lauro and Todd Bland she's been seen conferring mainly with Blanche shuffling papers but there was a moment and it only lasted a few seconds but it was unmistakable when former president Trump appeared to look straight at special prosecutor Jack Smith the last time they were in the room together was June 13th in Miami Federal Court after the indictment had been handed up in connection with the classified documents case during that appearance it didn't appear that the two men locked eyes here Smith has been seen staring at Trump and at a different point Trump has been seen staring at Smith with his hands kind of clenched at the defense table and it was a moment that that clearly shows how perhaps angry the former president is with this particular indictment and the special prosecutor who has brought it who he is accused of trying to undermine the election by specifically Prosecuting the Republican front-runner this proceeding in court is still waiting for the appearance of the federal magistrate who will hear Trump's plea of not guilty maxilla uparayi is not the judge who is ultimately going to hear the case of Federal magistrate they're appointed by other judges they're not subject to political appointments and and they handle mainly ministerial duties after this we expect the the judge Tanya chutkin the district judge to take over the case someone David you've pointed out has heard a number of January 6th cases and who was ruled against former president Trump in the past in a case involving the January 6th Congressional committee when Trump tried to withhold documents she ruled against him writing presidents are not Kings David the moment you learn more Aaron raise your hand will come right back to you for any kind of reporting from inside that courtroom I want to bring in Asha rangapa associate Dean former Dean at Yale law school current law professor former FBI special agent Asha always great to have you with us and I wanted to ask you how difficult the case will this be to prosecute on the part of Jack Smith and then on the flip side how difficult will it be to defend the former president foreign that's in the indictment I think that he's got plenty of witnesses and documentary evidence at his disposal and we have to remember that unlike the Mar-A-Lago case this won't encounter the same kind of procedural hurdles uh because it doesn't involve things like classified documents so I think that he has the potential to move forward on this and I think this one is the most important indictment that we have seen so far remember that the Manhattan one is from before Trump became president the Mar-A-Lago case is after he left office this is especially significant because this concerns his actions when he was president of the United States he was using the levers of power to try to weaponize the people under him the Department of Justice the military it's an abuse of power and I think in many ways it has a through line from impeachment to now because you'll remember that many of those Republicans who refused to vote to convict him said that the criminal justice system is the right venue for this and and here we are and this is an important historical record for whoever occupies the Oval Office moving forward Asha stick with me here we know the judge has just entered the courtroom All Rise could be heard proceedings expected to begin at any moment this is about 20 minutes now after the former president Donald Trump arrived in that courtroom again the judge is now in the courtroom OSHA I want to bring this back to you you just laid out a scenario uh by which Jack Smith could try to move very quickly to prosecute that again this doesn't involve you know boxes and boxes of classified documents like Mar-A-Lago which could get delayed in the discovery process and emotions to the judge that this case is a clearer cut now having said that what what do you think would be the former president's defense and how difficult will it be to defend him I think that it looks like from his public statements he is testing out a few different defenses there's the advice of council defense that this was that he was just relying on the advice of his lawyers and we the indictment makes clear that he was an active participant um in this scheme and that he knew that he hadn't won the election you know that I don't know that that will go very far especially because he would have to testify in his own defense um and discuss the conversations that he had with his counsel which would of course waive attorney-client privilege the other defense that he seems to be floating is that he truly believed that he had won the election and again this is really a non-starter for the kinds of charges that are here because what is being criminalized is not the lying it's the use of illegal means and intimidation to overturn the election the analogy here would be you know if you believe that your bank account you know contains ten thousand dollars more than it actually does you can use all kinds of means you can talk to the manager you can take them to court you can't go with a gun to the bank and Rob it um just because you think that there you should have more money um and so I think these defenses are going to not get very far it will be very difficult for him I think uh to defend against these charges especially if many of these co-conspirators end up cooperating with the special counsel and again Asha that goes back to the point that Jack Smith spelled out that that the former president had every right to speak publicly to even talk about uh you know to share falsehoods if that's what he wished but that the way to argue this is through lawful means Jack Smith said he did a number of different ways and in many cases in front of trump appointed judges uh what more than 60 cases we've reported out back during uh and right after the 2020 election uh and that they did not rule in his favor saying that there was no and we heard this from Bill Barr the attorney general who was so close mostly allied with the former president for so long saying there there was no significant evidence showing that there was any sort of fraud at a level that would have changed the outcome of the election yes and on that point David I want to just Echo back to what Martha said earlier about you know how we see these coups in third world countries um this this is an example of um a self-coo an attempt to stay in power it's not you know trying to overthrow the government to get in power but what's really important here is it follows a pattern that we see across the globe you know military coups are out what's in is using legal cover to get in or stay in power and one of the things that the indictment highlights which I thought was fascinating was the use of these lawsuits which you just mentioned as a way to create cover for these fake collectors to be meeting and creating fake slates they wanted to act as though the outcome of the election was in doubt to give this legal cover the John Eastman plan is a legal blueprint um you know they're trying to create this veneer of legality to engage in an illegal takeover of power and I think that that's really important to understand when reading the indictment Asha rangappa former associate dean of Yale law school former FBI special agent with us for our coverage here today Asha thank you as always we we know that core Personnel inside the courtroom just announced moments ago the case the United States of America versus Donald J Trump uh we understand there's another woman at the prosecutor's table an FBI agent there at the prosecutor's table Jack Smith the special counsel also in that courtroom as we reported here Donald Trump each side of him are his two attorneys who are sitting uh in court beginning the proceedings the judge said to Donald Trump good afternoon Mr Trump uh and then he was sworn in for the beginning of this arraignment before the judge we heard Asha talk about potential defense strategies here Dan Abrams and as we await to get uh more color from inside that courtroom from what you've heard so far what is the strongest defense Donald Trump's team can put forward the strongest legal defense is going to be that he believed it the strongest legal defense is going to be that he discarded and rejected the accounts the conclusions the advice from many of those around him and he accepted and it's not just accepting advice of counsel it's also he's going to say he believed uh accounts that were coming in from the various States about um misconduct going on around the election he was told that Etc and this becomes why it's so important to show that he knew uh that that wasn't true now there's something else that's interesting here about the other January 6 cases because we've been talking about that a lot and we've been talking a lot about the timing of this case how quickly could it move could it happen before the election one of the reasons one would think this case could move a little more quickly is that a lot of the legal issues have been resolved and have been litigated in connection with the other January 6th cases so some of the questions about can you use in fact one of the laws that Donald Trump is charged with here has been litigated about what does it mean what is the definition what is the standard those are the sorts of things that take time and that have actually been resolved to some degree in connection with the other January 6th case and very likely some of those issues result in judge chuckin's courtroom because she's presided over many of these January 6 cases already right the first ruling there then they go to the Appellate Court in particular sort of a definition of how high a standard is there for obstruction of a of a proceeding I think that's very important but look you know the defense is going to be arguing as Asha said a whole lot of different kinds of of defenses here you know I I think that it's not quite as clear-cut as Asha thinks it is I think that this is a this is a strong case that he's got but you know there's going to be some wiggle room here there's going to be much more wiggle room here I think for the defense than there is in the documents case I mean the documents case is so straightforward it's about did you have these documents did you refuse to turn them over did you try and Destroy video of surveillance video Etc were you trying to prevent them from getting the stuff that's pretty straightforward in terms of legal questions here are the questions of intent frame of mind frame of mind intent these do become significant issues and as I talked about bigger issues on some of the charges than on some of the other charges but you know I think it's important to distinguish from the political defenses which are you know they're just after they're just out to get us they just want to prevent Donald Trump from winning by the way which is an interesting argument this idea that oh they're trying to interfere in the election and yet all we ever see every time an indictment happens is Donald Trump go up in the polls um at the judge's request just moments ago Donald Trump offered his full name in court saying yes your honor Donald J Trump John he also gave his age in court a 77. the judge is now we are told reading the charges to the former president Donald Trump uh again this is where it starts to come into Focus just the historic nature of what it is we're watching uh unfold and John you and I look to each other when we heard how long the former president had been left to wait for the federal magistrate again this is the the judge at least in this initial phase who's presiding before it turns over to judge Tanya tutkin uh in the future but just the idea the former president sitting there waiting has to spell out his name confirm his name confirm his age 77 uh that's also a very harsh reminder to the former president himself that this is serious he had to sit at that table for 20 minutes David he had to sit at that table for 20 minutes waiting for somebody else Donald Trump never waits for anything he's always the biggest guy in the room he come comes in and everybody's waiting until he gets there and it's let's go he had to wait for 20 minutes and then of course the familiar call we hear every time we're in a courtroom and the judge comes in all rise Donald Trump like everybody else in that courtroom had to stand up and you know give deference uh to that judge and remember he's not free to leave he is he's not in handcuffs but he's under arrest he has to be there for this arraignment the judge just advised the former president of the penalties he could face if convicted count one the judge said up to five years in prison count two up to 20 years in prison count three up to 20 years in prison count four up to 10 years in prison the former president Donald Trump according to our reporter in the room was leaning forward in his chair listening intently to the judge as she went down the list of each count and the potential time in prison that someone convicted of of that count could face the judge also read Donald Trump his rights in connection to this case and asked if he understands those rights again Pierre Thomas this is the kind of moment that reinforces really the weight of what it is we're reporting on here today David there's always that pregnant moment in a courthouse when a defendant walks in insists before a magistrate or a judge when the charges are read and the potential penalties penalties are laid out it's a moment when you're there covering it you try to put yourself in the position of the person hearing it this is a former president of the United States hearing hey if you're convicted and again prosecutor has to prove his case in court before jury but if you're convicted you can face up to 20 years maximum in prison just think about that we have just been told Pierre that the former president himself uh said not guilty to each of those counts in the courtroom Alex Mallon or part of a reporting team they're witnessing this saying Donald Trump has said in court himself not guilty not through his judge not through his legal defense team the two lawyers on each side but himself saying not guilty in that court but it is Stark John Carl to hear up to five years for count one up to 20 years for counts two and three each and up to 10 years for account four I mean you're talking about I mean these are maximums but those are all life sentences um you know if now and maximums are rarely what you would see here but I I want to point out another aspect of the defense David surely there's the Free Speech defense that they've signaled they're going to make there's the advice of council defense he's they're going to make they're going to talk about state of mind but the other one is delay delay delay delay and that's the K that that's the central strategy I think in each one of these cases in New York in the classified documents case and in this case to delay the proceedings in every possible way in the hopes that he will win the Republican nomination and that he will win the general election and then he can call it all off it's something that has worked for Donald Trump many times in the past yeah I mean this is this has been his strategy since long before he was in politics think about this if he does win right and the New York or Georgia cases continue because he can't just end the New York or the Georgia case those are State cases brought by state prosecutors he could probably figure out a way to end the federal cases I think that's pretty clear but what happens then I mean he's president of the United States and Georgia let's say the Georgia case hasn't gone to trial and the Georgia prosecutors are insisting we still want to move forward to prosecute the president of the United States I mean it's a scary thing to think about well especially because he has shown that he is willing to use the power of the federal government and the power of the office of the presidency to further his own ends so I mean how is is the is Donald Trump as the now 47th president of the United States going to willingly and you know go down to to Fulton County Georgia and stay in trial no I think that's I think there's no way right so you'll have another yet another constitutional crisis Aaron katursky outside federal court uh in Washington he's reporting live for us and Aaron as we've been reporting here each count laid out before the former president uh pleading not guilty himself in that courtroom uttering the words while standing before the federal magistrate who heard the plea and former president Trump is is used to have people standing before him but he had to do it face the judge and enter the not guilty plea to each of the four counts after the judge had read them aloud and after she had told the former president the potential penalties if convicted a total of 55 years it's unlikely the former president would serve anything close to that if any time at all if convicted of these counts but it was a a stark reminder of the consequences the former president also had previously to enter his age 77 he had to remind the judge of his middle name John when he first appeared before her and now this proceeding should be winding down we may hear when the next date is before the district court judge that will be ultimately hearing this prosecution and then the former president is expected to quickly depart this courthouse and and return to Bedminster New Jersey but David just an extraordinary proceeding in three separate cases in three separate cities the former president has pleaded not guilty to each and every each and every charge he's faced Aaron katorsky outside that Courthouse the federal courthouse just Steps From the Capitol in Washington uh we're getting a readout of uh what's described as a somewhat awkward moment inside that courtroom when the former president was asked to say his name he apparently stood up and walked over to a microphone at the council's table to say his name it was then the judge said he didn't have to stand the former president walking back to his seat sitting down and then proceeding to to say his name uh his age pleading not guilty himself we are learning terms of release at this point and John Carl aptly pointed out a moment ago but again he's not handcuffed there's been no mug shot but he's in essence under arrest in that courtroom they have just agreed to conditions of Donald Trump's release and let's bring in John Santucci which the team learned on that John uh David we're learning from our Alex Mallon and Mike Levine that are watching this in real time at the prosecution and the defense have agreed on several conditions one Donald Trump must not violate any other federal or state laws two Donald Trump must appear in court as required obviously we'll be yet to see a calendar on this case David Trump must sign an appearance for Bond and uh as one of the prosecutors uh put it he must not quote communicate about the facts of the case with anyone Trump knows to be a witness except through Council or in presence of counsel and David that one is duplicative to the other case that was brought by special counsel Jack Smith the document retention case witnesses that are involved in that case cannot talk about the case with Trump we see here in this case now on the efforts to overturn the 2020 election same thing Donald Trump cannot talk to any other witnesses that are known to him and his lawyers and that is obviously as we talked about David several weeks ago here with you that's going to be a problem for Donald Trump because the one thing we all know Donald Trump likes to do is talk about his current situation he talks about these cases talks about what could be next how is this playing for me it's a phrase We Have Heard many many times over the years from Donald Trump that one in particular David that is going to be a problem for Donald Trump but if he wants to avoid any further issues he's gonna have to stick to it so as a foreign example Dan Abrams if Donald Trump wanted to talk to Mark Meadows let's say he can only do it through Council or in the presence of counsel he can't pick up the phone and call Mark Meadows to talk about this case anything related to the case that is not surprising right not surprising but remember that you still have to get caught right I mean you know I mean I hate to to phrase yeah as if it's so Cavalier because it's not but you know these are the sorts of orders that happen that as long as someone doesn't report it as long as he doesn't say it in public as long as the witness is still on the same page with Donald Trump no one's Really Gonna gonna know about it but with that said when it comes to some of the witnesses who are not currently you know at Mar-A-Lago all the time people who he's not regularly talking with it's a clear statement from the court you better not engage in any witness tampering and even more than that you just better not talk to them about it at all I mean think about it in a trial very often Witnesses aren't even allowed to sit in the courtroom when other people are testifying because they don't want it to impact their testimony right so Witnesses are often asked to leave the courtroom or not allowed to watch the proceedings because they don't want the proceedings to influence their possible testimony you have a similar issue here which is put aside even witness tampering you just don't want Witnesses improperly influenced based on conversations about the case we're just hearing Dan that a hearing before judge Tanya chutkin who is the judge who will take over the case from here the Obama appointed judge who has overseen a number of January 6 cases it handed out a number of stiff sentences to people involved with January 6th she will preside over the trial the the hearing is scheduled for August 28th uh 10 a.m so the end of this month the latest of three dates offered as options so again the magistrate overseeing today's hearing the the the latest date of the three dates offered as options from prosecutors uh was selected prosecutors had wanted the hearing to be earlier but again the next date key date on this calendar August 28th five days after the Republican debate in in Milwaukee the first Republican debate which again we don't know if Donald Trump is going to decide to show up yeah I wouldn't expect he would be at this particular hearing um you know this is this is going to be a first motions hearing Etc to set schedules Etc so I you know I don't I don't expect that Donald Trump would be at this particular well we hear that uh here at that hearing when the proposed trial date would be yeah they may have discussions about it but any proposed trial date in a case like this I think is fake at this point it's a Target date it's a hope it's a wish and it's going to totally depend on what happens so you know when people say even in the New York case right there's a there's a trial date set for March yeah in the other documents case with judge Aileen Cannon there's a date set for May I don't view those dates as as all that real at this point those are the target dates that's the date they're setting as of right now I'd expect in particular in the Florida case she's going to end up moving it again so interesting important to know what the possible dates are but don't Bank on them and and one thing we can be clear on I mean the idea that both of these trials just the federal cases that just these two Federal cases the idea that both of the trials could take place before the presidential election I mean that's got to be impossible there's no way there's there's a minor miracle if one of them can happen correct correct again one could yes one could I mean again it's it's still a year lost away you know but I think it's certainly possible that one of them will happen probably less likely but I think it's incredibly unlikely that both so does Jack Smith push ahead through both of them and then yeah and try to figure out which one he at some point has to make this a priority you know decide well it's going to be up to the judges a lot yeah I mean he can actually wants obviously Jack Smith would like to move more quickly he's made that very public and both of his press conferences before the American people which really weren't press conferences they were public statements to read the indictment I want to bring in John Santucci John as we heard there it's just a couple of days after the Republican debate have you received any new guidance on whether or not Donald Trump wants to be on that stage with the other Republican candidates well David we know from a report in the New York Times just a couple days ago Executives at Fox News actually made a trip out to Bedminster New Jersey lobbying the former president to participate I'm told David he's still not committal to it uh and he's wavering he's asking anybody that he's been around as of late David uh what should I do should I do it you know what are your thoughts on it again as as we often know but that is something that is definitely Weighing on him I'm told the former president um is really in a toss-up he's thought about doing counter programming something else instead of that night but you know Donald Trump knows two things if it's a show everyone's going to watch he can't help himself so I do think if he feels the crush of it and I think that the the dates being so close to each other with everything here as John Carl just pointed out is really super important because Donald Trump if anything knows how to throw out a shiny object right how many times was there something when he was in the white house that we were all talking about and then he'd do something else to move us forward I could see a world that when we start to look at this calendar if it falls around other events that we'd be surprised he'd show up to given the other things going on right now for him he'd absolutely go so I think it's something certainly possible but we'll have to see soon I think it's a very Stark and immediate example of the Collision of these criminal cases and the a campaign for president we're seeing it already in the final days of August the first Hearing in this case which arguably is the more significant when we look back at U.S history never before have we seen a former president charged criminally at the federal level with trying to overturn an election to try to hold on to power in the White House the special counsel alleging that Donald Trump knew that he had lost to the election that is what these four counts stem from the obstruction counts obviously have to do with the the certification of the election and the other key part of this prosecution will be the fake electors scheme and in the 45-page indictment which certainly doesn't lay out all of Jack Smith's evidence we wouldn't expect that would be the case but he does lay out evidence that he has he believes that directly links former president Trump to that scheme to somehow come up with different electors to represent those States so as to represent different outcomes than actually what played out I want to bring in Rick Klein because Rick I'm just thinking through in my head again this this immediate example of these two things colliding the campaign and these criminal trials uh I know Mike Pence is working very hard to get his requirements met so that he could be on that Republican debate stage so you're looking at the potential Rick of having you know Mike Pence up there who could be the star witness in this case and Donald Trump who is the defendant in this case sharing a spot on that stage and then a judge who just said you can't communicate about the facts of the case with anyone Trump knows to be a witness except through Council uh you know I don't even want to make any kind of joke here like you'd need counsel in the audience to sort of navigate the whole thing but I make this point only because it's a stark example of what we're going to face covering reporting out and what the American people will witness over the course of this campaign in the months ahead David it's mind-blowing think about it Mike Pence just yesterday uh said he'd be open to testifying against Donald Trump you is known to be a potential witness the judge is just ordering him not to have any Communications with potential Witnesses well what about if at a republican debate January 6 comes up are Mike Pence and Donald Trump not able to argue about it would Donald Trump force uh force a judge to potentially revoke the terms of his release if he gets into a big public argument with Mike Pence over what did or didn't happen on January 6th and that's to say nothing of the fact that Donald Trump often says the quiet part out loud he's going to give interviews he is going to post on his social media channels he is going to say a lot about the facts of this case much of it untrue no doubt as he said before and all of that gets get grips for a mill now obviously he can make public statements no one is going to infringe on his first amendment rights but it just tells you what this really means in practice with these with the political and legal calendars beginning to combine to collide it may be that Donald Trump is not able to comply with the letter of everything that is being laid out for him by this judge and it could easily land before a judge again and there's going to be a lot lots of times that he's tempted as he is challenged on the facts of this case as a candidate for president if nothing else people are going to ask him these questions his fellow candidates are going to ask him the questions if they share a debate stage and yes it could be Pence and Trump going ahead to head on a debate stage long before Pence is on a witness stand stick with us here Rick we've just learned the preceding in court has wrapped up we will hear from our reporters inside that courtroom the moment they come outside so stay tuned here let's go right back to Rick Klein because Rick one quick follow-up what does Mike Pence still need to do in order to get on that debate stage he's got to get about 10 000 additional donations he has said that he has had a spike in donations in the last couple of days and you mentioned earlier the fact that he is actively raising money off of this indictment including selling that hat with the Trump quote saying that he was too honest they are leaning in on this changing the campaign messaging right before the Iowa State Fair next week he is hoping that this gets him over that Mark a couple of candidates are in the same position they want to be on a debate stage whether or not Donald Trump is there and Donald Trump knows full well that a lot of eyes if you're trying to reach a significant number of eyes a lot of eyes would be tuning into that debate if people knew that there was the potential uh and again this is just the first first example of this but the potential to have Donald Trump and Mike Pence sharing a stage with one serving as the defendant in this historic case the other perhaps the star witness against him yeah what a show it would be and of course with legal consequences along the way and it's hard to imagine that this won't be one of the central left not the central issue of the Republican primary from here on out the fact that he faces these multiple indictments and the fact of his actions when contrasted with Pence's actions there's not at least one other candidate in Tim Scott who's also a witness to the events of January 6th is utterly extraordinary to think about how he's now being prosecuted for the very events that the nation witnessed and some of these rival candidates witnessed two and a half years ago Rick Klein our political director Rick uh thank you stick with us here I want to bring in Aaron kutursky live outside the courthouse we understand the former president has left the courtroom uh Aaron as we know we've had a readout that the counts were read before the former president he was also reminded of what the potential prison sentences could reach the maximum sentences not expected but it is required of the judge to lay it out for each count uh and then the former president pleading not guilty in his own words what other color can you offer and how soon could we expect to see any images of the former president we expect the former president to leave the court any moment now David and when he emerges from this Courthouse he is going to walk into a or at least see from the window of his motorcade a sea of supporters who've been blaring music and chanting slogans from a giant speaker set up across the street there are a number of his supporters here waving flags and denouncing the Attorney General Merrick Garland there are also detractors of the former president who are carrying signs saying lock him up we have seen this kind of Carnival follow him from New York to Florida here to Washington D.C but during the motorcade away from Court he is going to see all of these protesters who've come here to see him once again the center of the show David our team inside that Courthouse Aaron kutursky outside Aaron thank you we have learned that special prosecutor Tom Windham approached the bench and requested of the federal magistrate the judge overseeing this first hearing a speedy trial while Donald Trump's legal team repeatedly refuted that request asking the need for a fair trial and an ample opportunity for the defense to review a massive amount of evidence to be entered by the government this case will benefit from normal order including a speedy trial the special counsel prosecutor Tom Windham argued the judge responded to Windham by saying the court would ensure a fair trial but the judge not elaborating what Fair trial means with respect to the timeline so again the special prosecutor a member of Jack Smith's team in this case approaching the bench asking for a speedy trial this is an expected development that the reaction to that from Donald Trump's legal team they repeatedly refuted this request asking the need for a fair trial and an ample opportunity again to review the significant the massive amount of evidence of the words from the readout to be entered by the government this is an argument that we expected from Donald Trump's legal team and quite frankly net Abrams it's also an argument we expected to hear from Jack Smith the special counsel speedy trial Donald Trump's team saying whoa it doesn't need to be fast it just needs to be fair we have a lot of evidence to go over and remember that the you know the constitutional right to his speedy trial is the defendant's right it's not the prosecution's right and usually that's because the defendant might be in prison right they have a right to defend themselves exactly they have a right to hear the evidence they have a right to litigate it Etc so it while it's interesting that um special counsel Smith and his team are asking for a speedy trial uh I don't know that that's going to have that much of an impact because the defendant really does have more control over how quickly a trial moves now ultimately it's up to the judge the judge is the one who will decide how quickly does this trial move forward we now know that prosecutors want it to move quickly we know the defense wants it to move slowly now it's going to be up to the judge and it was interesting the judge said uh we the court will ensure a fair trial right did not elaborate on timing right because you know there's no way that the court can today say oh well this is going to be two months from now or two years from now how long the case is going to take um so this is you know this is the initial proceeding here so I don't think that that particular statement from the special counsel's office at this time is going to have much significance we are expecting the possibility and we don't know for sure the possibility that we might hear from the former president uh if and when that happens we'll listen to it we'll decide uh whether or not to bring that to you right here while we're on or whether we do it as part of our coverage on World News Tonight in the meantime the the other question Jack Smith we hear from him so infrequently only twice now once on the Mar-A-Lago case once in this case uh essentially saying that Donald Trump should be presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law and also making that the same request he made in the Mar-A-Lago case to the American people to please read in so many words the 45-page indictment here David he really is Jack Smith trying to do this by the book he's trying to say yes I'm aggressive yes I'm pursuing this case but he is presumed innocent until proven guilty he wanted to do that he's emphasized that twice as you said and David the other point I'm looking at those images uh streets closed a gauntlet of security around the courthouse it's just another reminder that a former president of the United States it's in a federal courthouse in Washington D.C ing potential criminal charges this is all becoming familiar because we've seen it play out in New York in Florida and now Washington but this is still really extraordinary what we're witnessing and now we're watching the motorcade Trump departing the federal courthouse now back in route to Reagan Airport where the plane awaits will bring the former president back to Bedminster again I suggested the possibility we might hear from Donald Trump if we're on the air certainly we'll listen to that for you and bring that to you if it happens after our coverage here today certainly the team will have it on world news Catherine falders was inside the courtroom she's now outside the courthouse and Catherine take us through what you witnessed so the former president walked into this courtroom and this is not a man who waits for meetings very long at all he sat there for 25 minutes the former president before this started Jack Smith was in the room when Trump came into the room he being the former president looked around the room he looked at who was there he did look in Smith's Direction he mouthed the word not to Smith but generally to the courtroom he said hi he looked in the direction of some of his other attorneys who came in I will say that Smith Jack Smith from my vantage point I was about two rows behind Smith did appear to look in Trump's Direction a lot of the time Trump did I could see his face from where I was sitting did a glance at him quite a few times it's unclear if they made any eye contact they were about 20 feet in my estimate apart from one another but during that 25 minutes As Trump and his lawyer sat there he was joined by his lawyers at the defense table Todd Blanche and John lauro who they hired to leave the January 6th legal fight he the whole time most of the time I should say engaged in conversation with his counsel didn't seem entirely solemn anyway the times when he did sit there silently which was not very often this is of course before the judge came in he had his hands crossed he looked over at prosecutors at the table looked at Jack Smith a few times there but he did engage quite a bit with his lawyers now the interesting thing to me with the engaging with the lawyers was they did hire this new lawyer John lauro who is said to be leading the January 6th effort here he didn't engage with him much Trump didn't he engaged with his other lawyer Todd Blanche most of the time of course you couldn't hear what they were saying it seemed animated at times he laughed at times I think it's important to point out that Trump himself entered the plea of not guilty he stood up when he did that his attorney was at the microphone and I will say that Jack Smith did talk to prosecutors also most of the time spokesperson Trump spokesperson Stephen Chung was in there now the judge read to the former president in court the counts counts one through four asking him if he understood these counts he looked at her he said he did understand the counts when the judge was speaking he looked at the judge the whole time there was one instance where the judge was reading the conditions if he were to violate if Trump were to violate the conditions of his release which includes intimidating Witnesses for example she said it could result in consequences if you violate the terms of your release at one point she said consequences like your arrest to which he shook his head in frustration you could tell at one point he was reading the indictment the indictment was in front of the former president and he was flipping through it he was reading it at one point he signs papers we don't know what those papers were also in the courtroom David and this is significant if you've been following any of the litigation um that we've been reporting on on our Network the the chief judge for the court was in the courtroom this is he's been hearing cases under seal where Trump's lawyers have been arguing that they don't want certain witnesses to testify as it related to January 6th there were multiple judges in this courtroom and they have all had one January 6 cases before them so he was in there for quite a bit of time he did look over of course at the special counsel unclear whether they made eye contact and then of course left the courtroom with his attorneys Catherine a couple of follow-up questions given the color that we have reported out while you were inside the courtroom again we're looking live pictures of the motorcade the presidential motorcade if you will a former president coming back to Washington and we've pointed out a number of times as we've been on the air this afternoon certainly not the return Donald Trump was expecting or or hoping for but has a returned to Washington to face these historic four criminal counts at the federal level accused of trying to overturn the 2020 the election special counsel making the case that the president knew that he had lost and continued to work to hold on to power and the white house anyway with help from several co-conspirators not charged at least as of yet and as we watched this motorcade taking uh Donald Trump back to the airport we are going to monitor this to see if we are going to hear anything from the former president before he boards that plane to go back to Bedminster those of you watching in the East here should also stay tuned for your local news the moment we wrap up our coverage here one of the questions I had for you Catherine was the description that came from the courtroom of uh you know and obviously this helps to put in into Stark you know reality the weight of this how different this is given the fact that we have a very public version of Donald Trump the country knows him very well people either support him or they you know are very concerned about the prospect of him being president again you know two very different camps in this country but when you hear about him waiting for 25 minutes for the judge to go in and then there was another moment described as somewhat awkward when he got up to go over to a microphone to spell out his name if you will the judge telling Donald Trump that wasn't necessary he could return to his seat yeah that was a bit of an awkward moment in their uh Trump got up and tried to go over to the microphone she said that wasn't necessary but the reason that that happened in the courtroom was because the microphone when the former president first sat down at the table was right in front of him and at times you could not exactly hear what they were saying but it teetered on the verge of being Audible and you could tell Trump obviously didn't want anybody in the courtroom to hear what he was saying so his lawyers actually moved that microphone to the end of the table so of course when Trump thought he had to speak he then gets up and goes to the microphone and there was a little bit of a dance and an awkward moment as was described by UNR reporting in the courtroom of course he sat down he answered these questions that the judge read aloud he said that he understands that the counts against him that he understands his conditions of release his rights for example he said to the judge I do he was watching her the whole time as she spoke and appeared you know to answer all of her questions in full and look at her the whole time now at times I will say that when the when the judge addressed prosecutors you could see the former president glance over at their table and also Jack Smith David ever the astute Observer Catherine falders who aptly described the scene the uh the awkward moment but explaining to us how and why that played out and it makes perfect sense now when you talk about a little microphone that's at the defense table you don't want all of your conversation with your defense lawyers to be heard by reporters in that courtroom for sure and so perhaps that was his guiding principle when he went back over to the microphone when the judge was asking him to talk in the meantime Catherine to something more serious than that moment I wanted to ask you about we we hit on this a moment ago and that is this almost immediate debate from both sides about the timeline here we heard a member of Jack Smith's team asking the judge for a speedy trial making the case initially for this to move as quickly as possible obviously they Donald Trump's team refuting that immediately as we would expect they would the judge responded to concerns from the defense saying there will be a fair process and a fair trial in this court I am certain of that is what the federal Magistrate Judge said Donald Trump's lawyer then responded about the special counsel and said they've had three and a half years to investigate this matter and also there are a number of agents and lawyers that are assisting the government in this proceeding and all we would ask for is the opportunity to fairly defend our client but in order to do that we're going to need a little time to that the judge then responded to raise any concerns with the district judge overseeing the trial and of course we know that's the judge set to take over at the hearing as as I understand it Catherine which is now set for later this month yeah the next hearing David is set for August 28th at 10 A.M I believe that's what was agreed upon but that argument that you laid out there this is something that we're not just hearing from Trump lawyers in the January 6 case and by the way so soon given that this occurred before the Magister judge but it's also the same argument you're hearing in the Mar-A-Lago documents case it's a bit of a backwards argument some legal experts would say because every defendant is entitled to a speedy trial the Trump lawyers obviously want to kick the can down the road with this they mentioned that there's going to be all sorts of discovery that they are entitled to and they just won't be able to get this done in a speedy fashion of course given all the other trials and how his political calendar is converging with the legal calendar if you will so they have to file additional briefs with this district judge and you will see those arguments of course laid out by prosecutors and by Trump's legal team I think that they will be pretty similar to the ones we've seen already now whether they request an indefinite trial delay for example as they did Mar-A-Lago case that's to be determined but I'm told at least from sources that we could expect something similar at least on the Trump legal team as we've seen previously David stick with us Catherine we're watching live pictures of the motorcade bringing Donald Trump back to Reagan Airport and for those of us who know Washington well we all feel like we're essentially going to the airport here on a rainy Summer Afternoon in Washington there you see the plains off in the distance so we're just moments away from seeing whether or not Donald Trump will make any sort of statement before he boards that plane uh heading back to Bedminster uh one last question for you Catherine and then we'll let you go and gather any more reporting you might be able to uh to to to get your hands on but what was the overall demeanor of Donald Trump we've now watched this play out in a number of different cases this one of course uh its place in history and the legal consequences uh largely uh believed to be much more significant than the others what was his demeanor in court today absolutely and I will say during those 25 minutes his Demeter was one of that he talked to his lawyers the whole time it was fascinating to see there was very little time in that courtroom where Trump wasn't Consulting mainly with his attorney Todd Blanche of course when he wasn't talking to his attorney and asking questions that we couldn't hear of course because the mic was moved he sat there silently stared down at his hands looked at the prosecutor's table but again very little time that he was in there where he wasn't talking where he wasn't looking around scanning the room appearing to ask who was in the room if he didn't know who the people were at one point and again you can't hear him but it seemed as though he was asking his attorney who the other prosecutors at the table were of course Tom Windham is one of them who has been leading the January 6 ever but there were two more it appeared that his lawyer was trying to explain that and I just think it's worth emphasizing as we're seeing these images here that former president might get out of the car and and potentially speak but you mentioned place in history and that's very important to put this in perspective of course he's appeared in court multiple times now to enter not guilty please but I will tell you that from where I'm standing I can see the U.S Capitol the buildings where are not far apart at all they are about maybe a five minute walk from where I am to the U.S Capitol so a significant place in history of course given the vicinity to where we are thank you Catherine something that we have talked about quite a bit this afternoon Donald Trump brought back to Washington today to face these charges not far from the capitol where the country and the world witnessed what played out on January 6th uh this is Reagan Airport you're looking live at uh Donald Trump set to board his plane we are told there is a possibility he will make some sort of statement here before he boards that plane to head back to Bedminster like the gaming out whether or not to say something and let's just watch here for a moment as this plays out let's listen gonna live in here our team telling us that is waltonata Donald Trump's Aid holding the umbrella for the president Walt NADA obviously a key figure in the classified documents case in Mar-A-Lago charged in that case an additional charge just in recent days with that superseding indictment and Jack Smith alleging that Walt nada holding the umbrella made that secret trip to Mar-A-Lago going into detail on that indictment and get another case that Walt NADA and the manager there at Mar-A-Lago walked down the tunnel with a flashlight to try to find the surveillance camera that was trained on the storage room allegedly that had boxes of classified documents asking employee number four to delete the server here we see the former president Donald Trump now running for the presidency again approaching the cameras and let's listen well thank you very much this is a very sad day for America and it was also very sad driving through Washington DC and seeing the filth and the Decay and all of the broken buildings and walls and the graffiti this is not the place that I left it's a very sad thing to see it when you look at what's happening this is a persecution of a political opponent this was never supposed to happen in America this is the persecution of the person that's leading by very very substantial numbers in the Republican primary and leading Biden by a lot so if you can't beat him you persecute him or you prosecute them we can't let this happen in America thank you very much do you want these trials to happen additional questions for Donald Trump as he boards the plane we heard him there moments ago that is very rare for Donald Trump for those of you who are astute viewers at home and so many of you are with us every step of the way here for those of us who have covered him know that he often takes extra questions at something that sometimes he can't help himself but to turn back around but that might be a signal in the former president knowing the weight of this day and making a statement and not taking debate on any of those questions shouted his way but you heard Donald Trump say this is a the persecution of a political opponent he talked about the Decay he witnessed in his short trip here to Washington um as a swipe obviously at the current Administration he pointed out that he's leading uh significantly he used his own adjective on the Republican side which is true he is leading Ron DeSantis the closest opponent for the Republican nomination by about 37 38 points in the latest polling uh he said he's leading uh he insinuated that he's leading Joe Biden significantly as well although we know that's not necessarily the case they are even actually in the biggest poll to be released this week the New York Times Siena poll uh it's 43-43 with a number of people uh undecided unwilling to to say that they're going to vote for either one of these candidates in a number of other polls show a much closer race between Donald Trump and Joe Biden uh John Carl these are the talking points that we have heard not a not a terrible surprise I thought what was telling though was how brief this was and that he didn't take any other questions uh and to see Walt NADA holding the umbrella for him as he got out of that limousine I mean Walt NADA uh his personal assistant one of his most loyal aides now himself facing legal Jeopardy and the real possibility of years and years and years in prison and still there by his side but David he clearly was going to make his point on being persecuted because I'm running against Joe Biden I'm being persecuted because I'm winning he's not winning against Joe Biden that's a a a a very close race if it comes to pass but he wants to play the victim and he wants to tell his supporters that they're coming after me because they really want to come after you and in fact in recent days in the campaign Trail he said I'm indicted for you that's exactly he's explicit about it and he's also explicit in saying that this is his retribution campaign he is going to campaign to have to destroy his enemies these are the words he uses and his enemies he's not talking simply about Democrats he's talking about uh his enemies he sees it in the FBI at the Department of Justice uh his enemies in the special counsel's office Pierre Thomas we did not hear from Jack Smith today that was not expected and in fact it could be uh months before we hear from Jack Smith again if at all I've been told by his people he spoke when he had to you won't hear him until they speak in court and David I think the reality today notwithstanding the politics we now see a criminal case regarding whether Donald Trump tried to steal an election now fully enjoined here Thomas with us as well one last thought here from Mary Bruce our chief White House correspondent anything from this White House nothing from this white house and I don't think you're going to see anything from this white house but as if there was any doubt there it is clear Donald Trump is leaning hard into this this is what is going to dominate the next year and a half both clearly in the court system and on the campaign Trail you heard Donald Trump there arguing that what President Biden is doing is in his word saying if you can't beat him you persecute him um that is going to be the argument going forward and it's not just that the legal defense is going to dominate Trump's campaign I think the question going forward is whether his supporters Tire of that whether at some point there is that fatigue we have been discussing will voters start to say I want to hear a little bit less about Donald Trump and a little bit more about what you're going to do for me that is what Joe Biden is hoping that they will start to wonder what can the next president do to make their life better and Joe Biden is hoping that that leaves room for him to be able to show how he can govern and the first and it's a major one the first major legal argument we saw play out in this hearing today and that's over the timeline Dan you heard that Jack Smith's team asking for a speedy trial making their case to the magistrate the defense team jumping in refuting that request saying look the special counsel's had blank amount of time to get ready they've had a number of Agents helping them investigate we need a similar amount of time to help defend our candidates it's going to be the single most important decision that this judge has to make at the outset which is how much is she going to push to move this case forward quickly as the prosecution wants versus allowing for more delay but one more big picture thought here it is clear that the appointment of a special counsel didn't work and what I mean by that is the point of it was supposed to be a sense that someone is coming in from the outside so that there isn't a perception of the Biden justice department Prosecuting that's why you appoint a special counsel and it is clear not just from Donald Trump's own words that we just heard but many of his supporters and many Republicans and many others across the country who feel that it's still the Biden justice department who's Prosecuting here yes the special counsel ultimately reports to the attorney general but you're hoping that the appointment of a special counsel allows people the assurance that it's someone from the outside and I think that's been lost here in the discussion of this people forgot that oh and by the way there's also a special counsel still investigating President Biden in connection with the documents case that was also appointed and I will tell you one more thing I think that if the document's case had not happened the case we're seeing right now never would have happened either because it sure seemed like Merrick Garland was ready to move on from Donald Trump and January 6th and the overturning of the election then the documents case happens he appoints a special counsel and the minute you appoint a special counsel the special counsel gets to decide where do you go with the case not the attorney general and I think what you've seen here is the special counsel now moving forward with a case that you know and that I think that Merrick Garland was reluctant to bring and it has now been brought and it has an enormous impact on the country there's no question history made today in Washington Dan thank you Mary Bruce John Carl Pierre Thomas and I know Martha Raditz reclined with us in Washington President uh Donald Trump the former president returning to Washington today to face four counts in this Federal Criminal indictment that alleges uh that he tried to overturn the 2020 election Jack Smith the special counsel alleging that Donald Trump knew he lost that election but proceeded to work with co-conspirators anyway to try to hold on to the White House hold on to power and what we have now seen is that this essentially the train has left the station here we are looking at a republican debate in just a couple of weeks and the first Hearing in this case to happen just days after that Republican debate which sets up all sorts of potential scenarios as we cover not only the race for president but also these Federal criminal cases now underway and how the two might intersect they will intersect but how they intersect we wait to see and we'll report that out fairly and carefully because I have this team right here our coverage continues in ABC News live ABC news.com and of course I'll be back a short time from now with World News Tonight for many of you here in the East your local news team is standing by I'm David Newark I'll see you at 6 30. this has been a special report from ABC News

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Id: T6yrKPv5VHs

Length: 132min 17sec (7937 seconds)

Published: Thu Aug 03 2023