Live | Death penalty trial for Nassau County deputy killer Patrick McDowell continues

resume today's uh today's CA uh session and we're still in the defenses case in Chief so uh Mr chfi or miss you want to call your next witness call Dr Mel mat to that uh chair is kind of heavy it rolls around you kind of pull it up to the mic I think it'll help everybody all right yes sir you may proceed thank you your honor uh doctor would you tell the jury your full name and then spell your name for the C reporter certainly my name is Mel mat and that's spelled m i k l m a t t o and Dr mat where do you live I live in Portland Oregon and what is your occupation I'm a forensic psychiatrist and how long have you been a forensic psychiatrist for eight years can you explain uh to the jury U where you work uh what positions you hold and what you do at these places where you work certainly so um I'm a psychiatrist which is a doctor that treats mental illness part of my practices as a forensic psychiatrist which is a psychiatrist who um tries to do evaluations and answer questions for attorneys judges or the court to help with legal cases my clinical practice is when I work with patients I work at Oregon Health and Science University uh where I work primarily with patients suffering from PTSD um prior to that I worked at the VA system for about seven years uh which is a hospital system for veterans uh my forensic practice um I do part time uh working for criminal and civil cases and when you work um forensic cases do you get consulted by both the defense and the prosecution sides yes I make sure to work uh both with prosecution as well as defense attorneys in criminal matters and are you affiliated with h universities I am I am associate clinical Professor uh for University of California San Francisco a medical school and also assistant uh clinical professor at Oregon Health and Science University which is Oregon's medical school and do you direct a VA psychiatric urgent care clinic I used to um I moved to Oregon Health and Science University in 2023 prior to that time I was medical director of an urgent care clinic for about 7 years at s Francisco VA what is your educational background starting with your bachelor's degree I have a bachelor's degree from University of California Santa Cruz and a medical degree from University of California Davis as part of your medical training did you do an internship and residency and fellowship I did and where did you do that I did all three at University of California San Francisco um and where are you licensed as a medical doctor I'm licensed in the states of California Oregon Washington and New York and are you board certified I am in what areas are you board certified I'm board certified in the fields of General Psychiatry forensic psychiatry and addiction medicine what is addiction medicine it is a field that recognizes addiction as a medical condition that requires intervention and treatment and do you belong to the American Psychiatric association I do the American Academy of Psychiatry and the law I do and the American Society of addiction medicine uh I do I believe I stopped membership there about a year ago and did you have a connection with the military I did can you explain what your connection was with the military I served for I believe a little over 12 years in the um Army Reserve Corp and did you have did you practice as a psychiatrist during that service um it's mixed in the army they largely view u a doctor as a doctor so um at times I would operate as a psychiatrist and at times I'd operate as a more General Medical Doctor um for instance I was deployed for 5 months for covid and functioning as a general medical doctor even though my uh specialty is mental health um you mentioned that you treat people for PTSD or post-traumatic stress disorder can you explain to the jury what that is sure uh post-traumatic stress disorder is one mental health consequence that people can have from experiencing traumatic um uh experiences when people have trauma of a sufficient level or a sufficient frequency they can have ongoing symptoms that can cause them impairment uh PTSD is one example of one of those consequences and is there a a technical definition of requirements or characteristics that leads to a diagnosis of PTSD there is um mental health professionals at least in the United States use a um book called the DSM and it's a way of sort of standard izing mental health um because mental health issues is something we all experience there needs to be sort of a standardized way of deciding what is clinical depression versus what is depression meaning I'm sad because my football team lost um so PTSD is defined by very specific criteria in DSM so that we can distinguish it from someone that's just having a more healthy response to a trauma experience and is PTSD a well recognized mental disorder it is jury has heard testimony that it used to be called like battle fatigue or shell shock is that accurate yes it's gone by various names since I believe as far as the Civil War um and PTSD uh I believe it was around 1980 when it was uh recognized and Consolidated into the DSM and is PTSD a serious mental condition PTSD varies in severity um to meet criteria for PTSD you have to have significant clinical impact suffering or functional impairment um so by definition you have to have fairly um fairly consequential symptoms and can it be a lifelong disorder it can it can be both debilitating and lifelong and is that true especially if one does not get appropriate treatment for it yes the longer one goes without treatment in general um the harder the symptoms can be to treat does uh the condition of PTSD does that very often lead to substance abuse it can not always but it certainly can and why is that what is there about substance abuse that affects PTSD or vice versa so PTSD I think is best thought of as a as a diagnosis of avoidance it's basically when we experience something that is so profoundly unpleasant that we don't want to think about it we don't want to work through it we don't want to look back on it so when we're vulnerable at night we have nightmares intrude um when we have reminders of things that cause us to have memories we can have this flooding of emotions um that that come back um so a lot of PTSD is spaced around sort of avoiding those reminders avoiding those feelings and drugs and alcohol are an excellent way to sort of avoid thinking about these things it functions for a lot of people as kind of an anesthetic or something that numbs the pain and makes it easier to avoid um now I want to ask you about your work in this case involving Patrick mcdal um did you meet and please feel free to refer to your notes if you need to as ask these questions and or your report your file on did you meet with Patrick mcdal who seated here at Council I did meet with Patrick mcdal and um do you recall how much time you spent with him uh during the evaluation I believe I spent around five and a quarter hours and how did you conduct your evaluation what was your method of operation you when you saw him interv so on most cases including this one I try to read as much as I can about the case um and by read I don't mean like Google I I look over Case Files I look over reports I look over any sort of evidence that I can be provided um after I've read all of those materials then I will meet um with the subject and then when I meet with with the subject I do an evaluation where I try to get a sense of history from birth all the way up to present day and get an idea of what mental health symptoms May or or may not have been present at various points in their life and during your five plus hours with Mr mcdal was he Cooperative with you and providing the information you needed he was did you believe that he was forthcoming into telling you about his life I did and the materials you you said that you reviewed before meeting with him did they include police reports about the shooting and the search for Mr McDow they did the video of the shooting it did the statements of Noel Gale yes VA medical records yes military records yes and depositions and interviews of witnesses yes um I believe there were a couple of um witness depositions that I read after the evaluation because they didn't occur until after I had evaluated them um and the materials that you did review both before and after meeting with Mr MCD are those the kinds of materials that you and other Forensic psychiatrists customarily review when you're evaluating a defendant in a criminal case yes and do you believe that you received sufficient information about about his life and his case to help you reach your conclusions about him and his condition I did so I want to ask you about the conclusions that you have reached concerning Mr mcdal is it your opinion that Mr mcdal suffers from PTSD it is and is it due to his military service it is due to a combination of his military and um military contractor service service with triple canopy yes um and was he still did he still have PTSD at the time he shot Deputy mors he did and does he have PTSD to this day or at least to the day that you saw him thank you he he was suffering from PTSD at my time of evaluation and that was even though he was on medication provided by the jail that's correct um and your opinion that is PTSD has a causal connection to the shooting of Deputy MERS it is um I want to go back over your opinions now how how did you reach the conclusion and tell the the facts the circumstances that that you learned of um that help you reach the conclusion that he had PTSD resulting from his military service and his Service as private contract my conclusion regarding his meeting criteria for PTSD was based on my evaluation and the re review of the materials he described the symptoms that are necessary for the DSM criteria of PTSD um that was also supported by VA records um at the time and also statements from other Witnesses um that described levels of impairment that would be required for him to meet the criteria you were provided with the deposition and the medical records of a Dr Julet Tesh Owen you recall that I do can you explain the significance of her work as it related to your conclusions of that Mr M sure uh Mr McDow um was evaluated um by the doctor who performed a screening uh intake of Mr McDow to determine whether or not he met criteria for PTSD she used a very standardized screening tool which is Common from my experience at the VA um to elicit the various symptoms to determine whether or not he would meet criteria for PTSD and she saw him in April of 2010 that's correct if you and her conclusion was that she needed he needed engage in treatment or come back for more treatment in order for a full-blown diagnosis yes it's it varies a little bit from provider to provider but many providers are uncomfortable coming at a diagnosis on first visit for some patients they like to see that the symptoms are sort of consistent for a few times so they'll arrive at a more generalized diagnosis um in this case she felt that his symptoms were significant enough that it warranted longitudinal treatment meaning ongoing regular treatment for the treating of these uh of this disorder and is your understanding from what you have learned from Mr McDow and from the records that he did not do that treatment he came back a couple of times and then just didn't come anymore correct and the reason for that was that his son was born and he was had a job yes um The Experience is that you're aware of that Mr McDow had while he was in the Marines and while he was with triple canopy are those the kinds of experiences that can cause PTSD yes um many of them specifically were significant enough to meet criteria for PTSD can you can you tell the ones that seem to be most important to you well the ones that I feel were most significant in his case were during his time in the Marine Corps he had what he described as a less than kinetic uh deployment which is kind of marine talk for um less less direct shooting back and forth and more high levels of stress Um this can be common for causing PTSD if it's at a significant enough level that people are worried that they're going to die and he described a couple of instances in which that was met uh including one time when he was uh outside the wire meaning off base um in service with the colon Colonel nent uh that he was uh assigned to uh in which they felt very vulnerable and worried for attack that would be significant enough to meet criteria um he also had several instances of seeing both friendlies meaning uh American Service members that were severely wounded uh including uh two men in which they were severely wounded and to the point that uh he found it very traumatizing he also saw civilian casualties uh which were hurt uh very badly and he also had an experience in which he was um felt U trapped off base uh in which his vehicle was broken down and he was worried that uh he and his colleagues might be captured or killed um you mentioned kinetic activity that that is not a psychiatric or psychological term it's definitely not a psychiatric term and you said it's a military term that describes shooting back and forth at each other yes it's the reason I mentioned it is that it's it has a cache among particularly soldiers and Marines um because kinetic activity refers to sort of direct engagement With the Enemy that's not required for PTSD what causes the PTSD isn't the type of combat it's the level of fear it's the level of what could happen it's the level of horror of witnessing the consequences of combat so it can arise from viewing the aftermath of an attack absolutely and can it arise from viewing and photographing human remains yes and from I'm sorry if I could specify yes as long as those human remains were the product of violence um you would not get PTSD from witnessing someone who passed away peacefully and can it arise from observing serious injuries to young children yes and and you're aware that Mr MCD experienced that I am um you mentioned that PTSD very often leads to substance abuse among veterans and that's very common it is um once a person has both PTSD and substance abuse what are the consequences of that how does that impact the person treatment the person's life in the veteran population the combination of PTSD in substance use is so common that the VA has specialty clinics focused on the treatment of both PTSD in substance use at various times there were different philosophies and some said you've you've got to get this person sober then you can deal with the PTSD and that didn't work very well so then there was thinking no you have to control the PTSD once you do then you can address the sobriety um and that didn't work so well and I think the general consensus now is that you need to treat both and the reason you need to treat both is the two disorders the PTSD and the substance use disorder feed very much into one another the PTSD causes fear and agitation and um what we call autonomic arousal fast beating heart you know always in this triggered state in which that will cause people to turn to drugs or out alcohol to help sooe those symptoms um and similarly by using drugs or alcohol you're avoiding thinking about the effects of the trauma or you're taking drugs and alcohol that unfortunately particularly in the case of stimulants can actually increase the symptoms of PTSD so the two feed into each other um in a pattern that's particularly destructive you mentioned stimulants if the drug of choice is a stimulant like cocaine or methampetamine is that the kind of drug that increases the arousal at the same time that the PTSD is increasing the yes um PTSD causes changes in the brain um it affects areas of the brain like the amydala it increases activity and that's responsible for this fight ORF flight response um it decreases functions in the hippocampus which works on sort of memory storage and retrieval um and it decreases things like the medial frontal gyrus which is part of the front of the brain that makes sort of evidence-based pro and con decisions it has that fundamental a change um and a lot of the PTSD when people get aroused from the SPID ORF flight um it affects things like cortisol lbls and adrenaline stimulant drugs similarly cause these neurotransmitters like um dopamine and serotonin and norepinephrine so because of that the the stimulants and the PTSD both of them cause people to get sort of what we call ramped up you know they um have a fast Beating Heart things that might be more charitably viewed as minor issues can be viewed as very severe everything is of higher consequences more immediate things speed up um so stimulants in particular with PTSD can have a uh complimentary effect by complimentary I mean they can heighten each other I don't mean it in a positive way um back to the counseling for just a minute or the treatment is um is the kind of treatment that is normally given just for substance abuse effective in dealing with PTSD um substance abuse treatment and PTSD treatment can occur simultaneously but the type of treatment you give to help someone recover from PTSD is a separate set of therapies or medications than you give for to help someone control the urges to use drugs or alcohol now you said that your conclusion was that Mr McDow suffers from PTSD uh the next question was do you consider that there is a connection or a Nexus between his PTSD which was military related and the shooting of Deputy Moyers I do and can you explain your thoughts about that so with the shooting of Deputy Moyers at the time based on my review of The Evidence available to me and my interview with Mr McDow he appeared to be operating in this heightened figh ORF flight Instinct at the time of the actual shooting um he appeared to be perceiving this situation in a in a way in which everything was very much life or death um he reacted in a very quick manner all of these are consistent with um the sort of fight ORF flight response of PTSD can you explain a little bit more about fight ORF flight what do you mean when you said that sure fight or flight um there's also fight flight or freeze but it all comes down to this idea um that all of us in our our brain going way back through Evolution have the ability that under stressful life or death circumstances we instinctively react in a way that we need to fight or flight and what that basically means is there is a predator or something so dangerous to me that I need to fight enough to get it out of my way so that I can escape and and preserve my safety um that's the fight ORF flight instinct when this occurs we tend to have accelerated heartbeat um we have an increase in blood pressure we act uh very much sort of in an animalistic uh Instinct the jury has heard evidence including from Mr McDow himself that Deputy Moyers was polite asking questions in a in a very professional way and didn't make any threats was aggressive um how how does fight or flight come into play under a circumstance like that if Mr McDow was not predisposed to this figh ORF flight Instinct if through PTSD if he was not um uh under the presumed influence of methamphetamine at the time he likely would have been able to to have a a more nuanced response to the potential of arrest um instead regardless of how the deputy acted he interpreted it or reacted in a way of this is life or death from my review of the video and from the materials I've read I didn't see anything that Deputy Moyers did that would give any reasonable person the impression that Mr McD was going to be killed he reacted as if it was this life or death situation that can happen um for folks with PTSD in circumstances that aren't life or death due to these brain changes people can react as if they are they can react as if things are a life and death circumstance when sadly such as this case that that wasn't what was occurring now the jury has heard evidence from Noel Gail that almost immediately after the shooting of Deputy moers that Mr mcal said it was him or me how does that fit into the fight or flight idea that you have about the cause for this well that's another example of something that was factually incorrect in my opinion it wasn't him or me um despite Patrick's view um there was not going to be a consequence that either Mr McDow or deputy Moes had to die that's how Mr McDow saw the situation through the lens he was at at the time that it was life or death it was this fight or flight that due to the risk of arrest and incarceration he had to escape it was a life or death situation um I think that's probably attributable for the its him or me sort of view even though there was not evidence that a reasonable person would have uh viewed um this as being a fatal outcome are are you saying that Mr McDow was out of touch with reality at the time this happened or or legally insane so I wasn't aining on whether or not he met criteria for Insanity at the time um I think he was aware of his circumstances I don't think he thought he was in a world that he wasn't I think he was misperceiving the situation that he was in due to this elev ated figh ORF flight I thought he reacted in a way that was not appropriate to the situation because of the circumstances in which he felt this was a life or death situation even though it wasn't um you you talked about the combination of the PTSD and the the influence of methampetamine is there any way to a portion how much the PTSD influenced Mr D's actions versus how much they were influenced by the meth that he had been using that night I wish there was um because I'm board certified in both addiction medicine as well as Psychiatry and so much of my practices around PTSD um I often work cases both for defense and prosecution in which uh that's what comes up uh because so many individuals self-medicate with drugs or alcohol with PTSD often the question comes how much of it is due to one or the other and I would love to be able to provide an answer it's difficult to say in the best of circumstances in this case because it is a combination of PTSD and methampetamine because the fight ORF flight reactions of PTSD operate in the brain on the same neurop Pathways that some of the methamphetamine does it's the equivalent of uh getting the Jitters after going to Starbucks and saying is this from the two espressos I had or the two cups of coffee they're just too similar to delineate that way do you think that there's any way that anyone could say that the PTSD played no part in the shooting of Deputy Warriors I think you could hold that belief if you felt PTSD was not present um if you felt the person didn't have have PTSD uh that would be a reasonable conclusion um your opinions in this case were reached back when you saw Mr MCD month months ago yes um since then just last week Mr mcdal testified have you after that testimony have you reviewed that testimony I did review that testimony both the written transcript as well as a videotape um and his it changed your opinion about the effect of both PTSD and meth on the actions of Mr mcdal and the night he shot it didn't it provided an additional level of detail of what was occurring um that he did not mention to me but it doesn't significantly change my opinions as to the presence or influence of PTSD or Methamphetamine at the time of the shooting um as an addiction medicine specialist you're aware I guess of the effects of methamphetamine on the way a person can think yes and the way a person appears when he is on meth yes um Mr McDow testified that when he is on meth things that seem logical at the time are actually illogical is that a fairly accurate description of the way that meth affects a is thinking it can be yes and is it common for meth users to believe that their actions are normal when a casual Observer of them would say he's kind of acting weird yes that's common for many um forms of intoxication can you give an example for the jury to be able to understand the kinds of things that meth users do that are illogical may think are very logical intoxicated on meth individuals will get very um paranoid um they'll believe that um things are out to get them um they can have uh worsening thoughts of conspiracies um they can get very fixated on attention on specific things um if you visit the homes of of someone struggling with methamphetamine often times they will um tear things apart um and and just break things down with uh sometimes with a plan sometimes not but they don't have the concentration or ability to put them back together um these would be some uh common illogical thoughts and and behaviors that you can see and you mentioned that the the arousal or the speeding up of things when somebody is on meth which also happens with PTSD is person who is on methampetamine um and has PTSD capable of calm and cool reflection so um just to clarify one point that I want to make clear the first part of your question talked about um the sort of speeding up uh from PTSD I want to specify with PTSD that's not the Baseline that's when figh ORF flight is activated so I don't want to give the impression that someone from PTSD is constantly in this revved up State um that can be very situational um with regard to the second part of your question of being what was the term you used cool and calm reflection cool and calm is the opposite of the effect of methampetamine um stimulants if they are taken to excess and with a drug like methamphetamine almost any amount is really to exess um calm and cool is not the typical response um and with a disorder like PTSD when someone is is threatened or if their fight ORF flight is activated that's also the opposite of cool or collected it's Amplified and anxious um you said you obser the video of the shooting um and you know that Mr McDow fired three shots at Deputy Moors in your opinion does that show a period of reflection or heightened premeditation um so for reflection the shots and this is not meant to be scientific but they looked like the single shot was followed up by two more shots within a space of about 2 seconds um that to me doesn't imply reflection is addiction is addiction a disease yes addiction um we even now sort of avoid the phrase addiction just because there's um so much baggage with it but modern medicine um refers to substance use disorders which frankly is another word for addiction but there's the recognition that it functions in a similar manner to most chronic medical conditions and and I'm going to use the word Addiction again please do because it's the best word I know um is addiction a character flaw or a weakness that alone no and that is why we try to get away from the use of the word um addiction is not not a characterological issue or a character flaw um I think one of the issues is that people struggling with abuse of alcohol and drugs don't behave in pro-social ways um when people are struggling with alcohol and drugs they tend not to behave in ways that we like so because of that historically I think people have viewed it as a character issue saying oh you know all of these drunks they're just not good people that's because alcohol doesn't tend to bring out the best in people um so because of that I think historically there was this view that they're characterological in nature um when in fact there's it follows medical models of many other diseases and can you comment on the concept of free choice um when it comes to the use of street drugs for a person who is suffering from PTSD I'm not sure what the question means you you understand the concept of free choice that you have a choice if you want to to use drugs or not use drugs um can you comment on on how free choice is impacted with a person who is addicted to drugs if someone is truly suffering from a substance use disorder um they have an urge that can be extremely difficult to fight for the use of their drug or drugs of choice um this is why there's almost no example of treatment that is evidencebased which is what we call White knuckling which means to grip something so hard that you get White Knuckles uh that was sort of back in the days of drugs and alcohol being characterological flaws people would say just stop just quit it um and it's about as effective as telling someone who's anxious calm down or tongling someone who is depressed cheer up it's not the way it works um with drugs or alcohol there can be a very strong compulsion to use and it requires uh evidence-based interventions therapy medications um social structures in order to help people decrease or eventually cease use and is relapse U very common to people who are struggling with substance abuse in the community of people who treat substance use we usually say that relapse is part of the recovery process um that it would be wonderful if someone were addicted to drugs and then through the help of family church and medicine that they would stop and never use again that happens sometimes but it's the exception to the rule um there was an old study that found for alcohol that even with good good evidence-based treatment on average people relapsed seven times before having um lifelong um ceasing of use um it's not a rule but um I think almost anyone would be comfortable saying that relapse is a part of the recovery process you may and I apologize do you have any water here sure I apologize I usually bring my own couple more questions you able to answer some questions yes yeah couple more questions about methamphetamine um there's testimony in the record that from Noel gaale that meth was consumed at a parking lot that night where the meth was purchased while they were driving around and then in the gas station where they F in the parking lot where they first encountered Deputy Moyers so it was very shortly before the shooting um is it your opinion that he was intoxicated on meth at the time of the shooting So based on my education training experience using methampetamine that close to another point in time it would be logical to assume that someone was experiencing the effects of methamphetamine um I didn't diagnose Mr McDow with methamphetamine intoxication because the diagnostic criteria from that uh DSM book I was referring to earlier require some physical findings that I wasn't privy to um but given the space of time you're talking about it would be logical to assume that methampetamine was um being experienced as intoxicating and related to that somewhat different is the the longterm use of methamphetamine there's testimony in the record that he had been on a binge and had not been sleeping for the last two to three days prior to the shooting of Deputy Moyers how does how does that impact the brain and thinking at the time of the shooting of Deputy Mor yes so oftentimes we call it going on a run where people will stay up for multiple days through the assistance of use of a stimulant like methamphetamine it can have a cumulative effect um so the constant use of the methamphetamine can increase the effects over time and in addition to that there's also the added component of sleep deprivation um which as anyone knows we we all need sleep and absent of that sleep thank you Deputy appreciate it um absent of that sleep it affects things like judgment concentration Focus all of these things which are worsened by the methampetamine anyway so there's this cumulative effect when someone goes on a run of having uh worse outcomes or or symptoms from the use of the methamphetamine as com as compared to someone who uses once for a half hour say thank you do that's all I have all right cross examination yes good morning good morning um let me first start off you stated that you actually had the opportunity to watch and read the defendant's testimony in this case that you provided to this jury uh that's correct at no point in time during the course of that testimony did the defendant say he was in a life or death situation did I would need to re-review the transcript but I don't believe he said that no and at no point in time after he told this jury he wanted to fully explain what happened that night did he ever express that he was experiencing symptoms of PTSD during the course no he didn't describe symptoms of PTSD or intoxication he said he'd been doing meth and sometimes meth makes things that are illogical seem logical correct that's correct but at no point in time did he ever say that Deputy Moyers posed a life or death threat to him no he did not in fact the only thing that he said during the course of his testimony that Deputy Moyers posed a threat of incarceration to him that's correct he was afraid he was going to go to J that is what he said yes we'll get back back to that a little bit um I want to talk to you a little bit about your evaluation uh and your conversation with the defendant about what took place um he told you that when he first noticed Deputy Moors he saw him hanging out in his truck correct I'm not sure if that was a phrase she used um I would need to refer to my report but he did notice him in the truck in the parking lot and I'll I'll help you refer to your report if you look at page four of your report he told you that he first noce that the police officer was just hanging out in his [Music] truck that's correct he never told you that he walked out of the store and acknowledge Deputy Mo noed at him right correct and he never told you that prior to leaving the parking lot he actually pumped his brakes to test to see whether or not Deputy Moyers was actually following him or not he did not but he did say he did see the police officer pull out of the parking lot after correct he did and he also said that while he was driving down 301 he observed the officer and what he referred to is an observation position behind him let me refer to my report sure I'm sorry uh where are you referring to that he described an oh observation position yes okay all right let's uh talk about your interview when it came to his use of illegal substances narcotics okay first before we get into actually what he told you you would agree with me there are other reasons why an individual would use IL substances or narcotics other than the fact that they have PTSD correct yes there are a million different reasons why somebody might use drugs there are many and one of them can be they just like using drugs they like the way it makes them feel yes and you did a very comprehensive review sort of of his life and his narcotics usage over the course of his life correct I did um and actually he indicated to you that used cocaine for the first time at the age of 18 years old before he ever even enlisted in the mirle I believe that timeline is correct let me look at my report correct at age 18 and he further told you that between his military deployment in Iraq with the United States Marine Corps and he then enlisted in when as a military contractor in 2010 he used cocaine again additional time that's correct and when he came back from Triple Canopy again he used cocaine five times in 2011 um I believe he said he did it five times between 2012 and 2014 okay and let's talk about something that you mentioned functional impairment um that's when somebody has the inability to maintain relationships cor uh that would be one form of functional impairment functional impairment means when someone has a diminished ability to do some domain of their life social U professional educational things like that okay and you're well aware that even though marriage ended um when he decided to go and get involved with this woman named Haley wheeler he was able to maintain a relationship he actually had an eight-year relationship with haly wheeler um I'm not sure of the timeline between one relationship and the other um I'm not sure that he the way you phrased it you said that he ended his marriage and then started another relationship is that what you said yes yeah I'm not sure of the relationship between the two okay but if there was testimony in this courtroom that you weren't aware of that he made the conscious decision to leave his wife in foster a relationship with Haley wheeler um and that relationship lasted then for about approximately eight years um that would be demonstrating his ability to maintain a relationship correct uh it would be um the ability to maintain a relationship for eight years um additionally uh we heard testimony in his courtroom about his involvement uh somewhat thorough involvement in uh Airsoft not Airsoft I guess may be aoft it's a a type of combat simulation activities that he did for recreation yes he did participate in that and he maintained relationships had a very close relationship with a lot of the people he was doing that with he described having friendships he was able to maintain employment he was actually gainfully employed for over four years after returning from Triple Canopy he was working in the security field he was it wasn't until he started using cocaine regularly that he began to experience functional and in which domain in all of them yeah problems with relationships problems maintaining employment but all that started when he started using not when he came back so I think you're confusing functional impairment with functional disability functional impairment doesn't mean that you are unable to have any capacity for a domain it means that that area is impacted for instance you can maintain an 8-year toxic relationship with someone and I'm not implying that this relationship was toxic but you could have have a yearslong toxic relationship with someone that is evidence of this social impairment um it doesn't mean that you can't maintain a relationship at all um so the Imp parent means it's worsened from Baseline it doesn't mean a a total inability to have capacity in one domain or another okay oh you would agree he told you he started using cocaine regularly habitually in 2015 yes and that's when he left his employment in the security business uh I would need to take a look at time wise go ahead thank you yes he was starting to use cocaine habitually before uh leaving his employment as a security guard and then after using cocaine that's when he first started using heroin as a measure to sort of offset the effects of cocaine yes he started using the heroin later that was in 2018 2019 yes end of 2018 beginning of 2019 but he did report to you that after being admitted to the Matrix program the in custody drug treatment program he never used heroin ever again he stopped yes and primarily while there may have been dabblings with little things here or there primarily after the Matrix program um his dread of choice became let me refer to my note I'm sorry my report yes is um he began using methamphetamine in uh 20120 which was a few minutes after finishing the Matrix program and actually he admitted started using methampetamine the very night serves shut down because of that's correct we heard some testimony earlier in regards to possible that this defendant suffer from isn't it true that he attributed his seizures to his drug use I'm not sure if the F first one was due to drug use I believe he said his first one was happening while working but his later seizures he said occurred in the setting of drug abuse sorry to jump around here but I'm going to move sort of to a different subject area now I want to talk about after the incident took place when he engaged K9 officers who were pursuing him um you discussed that with him during your five and a half hour correct yes and I apologize I'm I'm not as familiar with law enforcement lingo when you say the K9 Officer do you are you referring to the K9 him or herself or the officers handling the K9 both okay both but obviously there were police officers a law enforcement dog that were pursuing him into the woods on the evening you discuss that with him correct we I did yes and he told you the best way to stay alive was to be aive that's correct that he set up with the rifle so he could follow his back Trail yes um and he even indicated to you that he could hear them yelling at no all Gale for a period of time yes I'm not yes you did even was so specific that he said I could see eight not five not 10 but I he could see eight officers approaching him uh let me look to my report to refresh my memory sure yes it was eight and that he had a 308 rifle with 10 rounds of allall ammo and quoting him there was no way he was going to lose that yes he did have that weapon he told you he had to be aggressive because that's when the dog ended up finding him where he was hiding in that log concealment a he described having to be aggressive as the best defense B B on his military training I don't think he was describing the need to be aggressive specifically related to the dog actually if you can refer to your report he states that after the dog engaged him and grabbed his arm now it was time to be aggressive so he turned his head and he pulled the trigger and he shot the dog he did and he specifically told you that they fired at him like aund tons yes not a lot not a bunch of shots but specifically like 100 times yes I I interpreted like 100 rounds to be a non-specific number but much like eight officers in like 100 rounds in your review of the reports that you had in this case that actually matched the law enforcement reports which were describing what actually happened in this case to be honest I don't recall reading in the law enforcement reports how many rounds were fired I'm not um disputing that there were 100 rounds fired I just don't recall the number and I think specifically earlier in this trial the evidence was very specific about that fact but I appreciate that that it was 100 rounds yeah I see he said his head snap back because he almost got hit in the head with a round I think he said he was grazed with a round I think he actually said his head snapped back you can check the report yes he did but um I believe that it was because a round grazed him rather than missed him entirely and he got HD and kicked yeah he did and after they stopped shooting he actually told you that he had one of those officers yes but the he was able to get up and run away and while running away he fired a shot I think he referred to it as a suppression fire shot to slow them down to effectuate his Escape uh let me look for the use of the term suppression I don't see suppression in my report um I he said that he fired around 45° up into the air to effectuate his escape to hold them in place slow them down he I don't know that he mentioned that specifically but in the context of what we were discussing that was my impression and he actually told you at that point in time now that he's left the rifle behind after being shot at over 100 times he didn't have the amm to get he described leaving the rifle behind intentionally because he had no intention of hurting anyone but he said he didn't have the ammo to get in a shootout with SWAT officers uh where are you seeing that sir apologize P I'm sorry it's a long report yeah it was and it was very thorough so thank you I'm sorry because of the length of report I can't find it so loud I'll move along for a second um in this case you provided a deposition correct I did and it's your opinion sir that the significance of a person such as the defendant lying about traumatic events that occurred while in country uh while serving with the military at Triple Canopy that the uh importance of the impact of those lies would depend on the circumstances correct yes I believe what I was talking about was the context in which the LIE occurs that it's one thing to exaggerate your combat experiences over beers at the VFW versus another one to um say that you you served uh in a combat zone in which you were never deployed um so it is contextual in my mind um however you also agree that it can be concerning if a person lies or exaggerates about events when they're reporting such traumatic events in preparation for Testimony seeking Financial Services or some sort of benefit such as uh trying to gain some external gain like mitigation in sentencing yes again it depends on context and obviously you your interview was for the purpose of mitigation and sentencing that's why you're here today I was asked to do an evaluation of the role um of PTSD drug abuse or mental illness may have played on the N question this defendant Dr told you that while he was serving in Triple Canopy that he opened up his weapon and engaged military aged males in a firefight in the first week or so that he was there in triple Camp I would reference you to page 25 I I appreciate the uh page reference um it did occur his first week at um forward operating base uh kalu um I'm sorry for at alut but I don't see a reference most of them being military AED males okay but you do see where he says that insurgents were coming in and he opened up with his weapon meaning he fired at these individuals with his weapon during this breach of the perimeter I don't I don't know that it was described as a breach U but he had said that infiltrators uh came in and he opened fire at them his first week there So based upon what we had just discussed if in fact that event never occurred that would be concerning to you uh concerning in what regard concerning is what we just talked about that if somebody exaggerates or lies about experiencing trauma during the course of a mitigation interview that would be used for potential sentencing that that would be concerning to you I would want to know if I determined this to be a lie I would want to know why the lie occurred meaning you would be concerned and you would have to inquire further because if it wasn't true there had to be some reason as to why he would be lying to I would want to know why it was um a lie or inaccurate absolutely and when discussing the trauma um that occurred in the United States Marine Corps um he actually told you that he didn't actually witness I think it was Captain skyle get injured but he knew Captain sky and he knew what happened when he wasn't that's correct that's how he described it to me so he wasn't there he didn't experience it he just knew of Captain sky that hej correct he did not witness the injury prayer statement to me directing your attention to um page 37 of your report it's actually the final conclusions that you reached in the report that you offer authored in this case you stated that once the defendant was able to view the threat as removed the defendant focused on nonviolent escape and eventual surrender that was ultimately your conclusion in this case correct that's correct but as we previously discussed and you reviewed the defendant's testimony at no no point in time did Deputy Moyers pose a threat of life or death to him that is correct Deputy Moyers did not pose an actual threat of life or death to Mr mcdal and the actual threat that Mr mcdal testified to was the threat of going to jail the threat of Consequence the threat of being arrested in his testimony that was how he described it was he was going to be arrested but after the time when he was taken into custody and his eventual surrender still had an active warrant for his arrest correct yes he did he just shot and killed a police officer correct uh a sheriff's deputy I believe yes he shot a canine and shot in the direction of multiple other law enforcement offic that is correct so in fact at the time of his surrender nothing changed about threat the threat of jail still existed he just couldn't resist anymore and he was apprehended I believe at the time he still had the pistol is that correct it's not it's not you didn't have the pistol at that time no gotcha um yes at that time that he surrendered I'm sorry can you repeat the question I got sidetracked trying to remember if he had question so at the time he surrendered his peaceful surrender the threat still existed he was still going to jail yes he was still going to be going to jail on arrest EXC thank you and uh sorry just to go back before I finish up referencing your report at the bottom of page eight because my co-counsel is much more skilled using his computerist than I am of leaving through the report I think it's at the bottom of page eight he said he think he messaged his mother I don't want to hurt anybody else I don't have the ammo to take out a swap team yes that occurred after the engagement with them when he was uh texting I believe unless I misunderstand when you were originally speaking about it you were talking when he was fleeing them while still armed okay but at some point in time he had the realization at that point in time all he had was the handun left the rle behind and he didn't have the ammo to that's correct but regardless of whether or not he had the ammo to fight he had the ability to resist the threat of incarceration still existed that's correct the threat of incarceration was very much still there thank you sir questions thank you redirect Dr mat you were asked about statements that Mr mcdal made to you um he admitted to you and statements that you heard him make when he testified he in court he admitted that his behavior was illogical but seemed logical at the time is that right that's correct you were asked about he never told you that he pumped the brakes um when he pulled out of the gas station that's something he testified to here in court but didn't tell you is is that significant to your opinions in this case no um you heard him testify here in court that he nodded to the deputy as he was leaving as he came out of the store across the parking lot in the gas station but he didn't tell you that is is that significant to your opinions in this case no it's not does casual and sporadic use of cocaine at age 18 tell you that a person is destined to be an addict not destined no does use of cocaine five times in four to five years mean that the person is destined to become an addict no it does not does a failed marriage even if it was Mr mcdow's fault prove anything important in your evaluation no I didn't see the failed marriage regardless of fault being a driving factor in this case you were you were asked about he used cocaine uh he turned to heroin turn to opiates eventually turn to meth does the use of multiple drugs mean something to you as a psychiatrist and addiction Med medicine specialist it can um some people have a genetic predisposition towards a drug of abuse um the children of Alcoholics um are much more likely to become alcoholics than um someone in the standard population and part of that is due to sort of this genetic predisposition when someone has an unhealthy relationship with a series of different drugs it does raise the concern that it's less this sort of genetic predisposition and more that the drugs are being turned to for reasons of Escape anesthesized reducing pain or self-medicating trying to find a drug that will make him feel better potentially yes um he told you that he said he said the best way for him to stay alive was to be aggressive but although he was aggressive with the dog for sure he was not aggressive with the officers not the way I would term aggressive and not the way I would understand the sort of Marine Corps Battle Tactics to be aggressive um he took defensive positions in which he could have laid down suppression fire taken out other police officers um and he didn't with the exception of the violence towards the dog uh which happened I believe after the dog had already uh bitten him and and was uh literally on his person and you understand from reviewing reports that there was a period of two hours or more between the time that he shot Deputy Moyers and the time that these eight officers were approaching him with rush I don't recall offand the length of time I do remember it was a period of time however so there had been a period of time during which this heightened arousal that he had felt could subside at least some yes both in terms of the heightened arousal from the PTSD as well as the likely metabolism of the methamphetamine that decreasing both would uh cause to have less of this perception of life or death threat um Mr McDow told you about an incident when he was at U near outcut Ford operating base Delta with triple canopy where he fired at an infiltrator or infiltrators who were trying to breach the wire you don't know if that is true or false the only reference I saw either supporting or denying that was his statements to me the fact that it cannot be corroborated when it was an incident that occurred while he was with a military contractor triple Cy is is it surprising to you that that isn't in a record somewhere so although I've served in the Army I've not served with a private military company um I have come across them in numerous medical um cases and also forensic cases in my experience companies like black Blackwater Triple Canopy uh Academy they tend to have very scant records um in the cases I've worked they tend to have HR related records but not sort of operational related records that the military is more likely to keep in fact the triple canopy employees use nicknames rather than their real name when they're operating in a base like that some do yes and in measuring the truthfulness of a person that you evaluate when you you are able to corroborate most of what they say by collateral sources or records does that suggest to you that the remainder you are unable to corroborate because there are no records is false true so if I understand your question correctly if the materials that allow me to corroborate statements are supportive of those statements that would give me more confidence that statements made that I couldn't cooperate were likely to be truthful but that I also take into account with the other signs of Truth trth fulness in my evaluation um such as with Mr McDow I would look for if he was trying to attribute all of his behavior to drugs or all of his behavior to PTSD that would give me concern um that that uh possibly he's more prone to fabrication for the for the sake of this in his my evaluation of him and in his statements that he made during his testimony that I viewed be a video it was notable for the fact that he largely appeared to be taking responsibility for these things and that he did not seem to be attempting to place blame on others or place blame on his demonstrated mental illness or drug abuse um those factors U make me uh more comfortable with the um areas of his statements that I could not find cooperating evidence either to support or to die to die I and when you evaluated him he had already play guilty to this offense I believe so and when you watched the testimony that he gave here in the courtroom he he took full responsibility he owned it very much so um I've worked a number of cases and it's that's rare in my experience um you were asked about when he was arrested that he didn't fight um by that time that was five days after the encounter with Deputy W correct yes and no evidence that he had access to meth during that five days no there was no evidence of that and he didn't make that claim to me um and also for 5 days he had been suffering from the effects of a gunshot wound that had not been treated uh that's correct other than his um first aid measures that he applied that he found in the U concession stand at the ball correct certainly you asked about Captain cypel who almost lost his arm a mortar came into the base where he was working with the Marines and he told you he didn't actually witness that or see it happen the fact that he didn't actually witness the mortar or the shrapnel hit Captain cyer is that important in your analysis of that it's not if Mr McDow claimed that the entirety of his current PTSD symptoms were due to that event I would find that unusual and concerning um for PTSD as profound as Mr mcdow's it's typically due to more personal experience with threat to loss of life the reported injury to someone else I would find that unusual but in this case um in my impression and from Reading other collateral of other evaluation ERS and for Mr McDow himself um this injury to the captain was not the main source of his Global PTSD symptoms and for Mr McDow to report to you that he did not see that is an indication that he's not trying to embellish or exaggerate a prior traumatic event in fact he's he's not embellishing at all if he says he didn't see that right agreed there were in folks who exaggerate or make things out of thin cloth um to try to portray having PTSD or trauma experiences that they didn't have um you would expect to see more um just because there there's sort of a an expression that no one who lies about going to Vietnam says they were a cook um when people make these stories or exaggerations it tends to be something significant um so in this case for Mr McDow to describe a traumatic event but fully admit that it was not major in terms of his personal exposure is more indicative of his being truthful um than of him being um concerning for fabrication thank you that's all right the witness May step down excuse can I see Council real quickly over here for scheduling issues with Witnesses before we finish up but um just have you step back uh leave your notes Here uh we're going to start back at 10:15 so just take a break and get stretch your legs and bring back all right we'll be in recess for we'll get started at 10:15 all right all right you rele I think Tommy's here hey hey thank you excuse me I thought that would be a think your where all men two showers Downs I have for yeah yeah that's spe like I part what want you true e thank you was you for to for all things consider it e they e right everybody have a seat um jury's coming back down the hallway anything else you need to take up before I bring them in all right all right everyone please be seated welcome back uh we're ready to resume the morning session and and I believe the defense has one more witness so uh you may call your next witness and defense would call Mr Peter wine CBE at this time he's pres outside you swear or testimony you're about be truth the truth truth you may proceed good good afternoon can you just please State afternoon can you please state your name for the record and spell it Peter wine coup w y n k o o p all right Mr wine CP and I just want to get some family background real quick are you currently married yes who are you married to Francis Wayne Cooper and are you currently retired yes and what did you retire from latest was teaching at Jacksonville University but earli I retired from the Navy what did you teach at ju economics and you said you retired from the Navy what branch Branch service Warfare okay uh and were you in the Navy I was in the Navy okay and how how long were you in the Navy almost 34 years and what rank did you uh achieve in the Navy what was your highest rank captain and who is Patrick to you my grandson and um you've known Patrick his whole life right yes and do you know who do you know Patrick's mother Reena I do um and who is Richard to you my son and um we've heard that Reena and Richard been divorced um how close were you to uh Reena I knew her but not really close I was once they were married I I was going away at Sea and what was the Parenting Agreement between Reena and and Rich's Richard supposed to be um after they were divorced as far as Patrick's concerned um Patrick would be with his father I think every other Thanksgiving and pray Christmas and during the summer um and when Patrick was with his father during those Summers and those Christmases did you have an opportunity to get to get to know Patrick as a child yes um and what was Patrick like as an early child a lot of fun and I want to bring your attention when um Patrick was like a toddler in elementary school age what kind of stuff did he like to do with you well particularly like trucks but because we to the beach got go in sand hop in the pool do you cherish those memories oh yes um at some point when when Patrick was elementary school age he had the opportunity to go on a tiger cruise is that correct yes and can you explain to the jury what a tiger cruise is a tiger cruise is a rare opportunity for civilians who arrive uh mayy ship from one port to another and uh done a few of those other family members but for Patrick my ship had just come back from overseas to Honolulu and so I wife flew with him to Hawaii he boarded the ship and rode back to San Francisco with me about a six day trip great and when you say it was your ship Patrick actually got the opportunity to go on this cruise on a ship that you worked right I was on the staff of the Admiral there it wasn't on my ship okay USS Abraham Lincoln about 5,000 people and which and you were a captain of a ship at that point no I'd been Captain before you you had been Captain before that and um can you just describe I know you described what the tiger Cruise was can you describe what you and Patrick experienced on the tiger cruise at that point well I had a large State Room extra play room for him and the tiger Cru or organized on a especially a big ship by some of the crew who moned those Tigers they were of all ages some were parents some were brothers sisters on this ship women were aboard the crew one of the first times and U it in the 90s and so the the children were sorted by by age I think and they got do different things from the adults so he played with he got to see everything in the ship by by the time we were finished in fact he was considered the favorite tiger I think all right and I have a picture of Defense exhibit 106 um can you see that on your screen are you able to see that on your screen sir I see a photo okay and what is that a photo of it's Patrick and the adal okay um and that's the Admiral on the tiger Cruise yes okay um and I'm going to show a photo of what's been previously marked as defense exhibit 107 all right can you explain to the jury what this is a picture a picture of that's a Patrick at the helm where the ship is guided through the water and you would have taken this picture right yes and we're going to look at what's previously been marked as defense exhibit 108 and what is this a picture of this is a picture of Patrick sitting on the mount what kind of impression did the tiger creu leave on Patrick at this age he had more fun than I'd ever seen him have before he got to uh he spent a day or two with the Marines there's a Marine Corps Detachment on the ship their job is to protect nuclear weapons and protect the captain and he got to play with them and they showed him everything painted his face camo and do you think that the tiger this tiger cruise with you along with your experiences in the Navy had an impact on Patrick's decision to join the Marines yes um now I want to fast forward uh to high school high school age how what was Patrick like as a teenager we saw I saw less of him at period but uh he was a grown up kid he was good guy um he visited I saw him I think mostly in the summer but I can't give you the years I was going a lot and we've heard testimony that Patrick got into trouble as a teenager um did you know about that yes I heard about it okay and how much detail did you hear about it uh very much his his father was involved and uh he did every everything he could to ease the problem but um I learned about it but not much detail um and were you surprised to learn that yes why were you surprised well because he was a good student and uh that's a surprise get in trouble do you remember learning that Patrick was enlisting in the Marines yes what did you think about that I thought that was a good idea especially was having trouble at the end of high school and Marines as his father had done it'd be a great thing for him I think to boot camp is a great place for a young man to get straight and were you proud of him happened to me too yes you said you got straight at boot camp too I sure did um and I we can talk about that for a minute how did you become involved in the military well first I was I was in college I fooled around too much in second year and they asked me to take a year off so my student status for the draft Chang and I was drafted and that was during the Vietnam war yes early on 65 okay so I looked around B I'm going on I said I don't think I want to die in a rice Patty so I'll try the Navy and you ended up going to Officer school no that was years later went to boot camp you went to boot camp when I went to of all thing no ship I went to Hawaii for several months sounds like a dream actually that was a place to prepare us to go to another school to go to Vietnam and eventually you went to off you decided to make a career out of this right a later job I qualified for a program to return to college and from that get a commission yes um so to summarize it even though you it wasn't your choice to join the military um it you decided to make a 34 year career out of it I decided to make a career for a while didn't know how long depends on how well you you uh survive advance and I had no idea how well I do but I like what I was doing I got pretty good at it so I stayed around um and and I want to we're going to turn our attention back to Patrick when he was in boot camp um did you did you go to his boot camp graduation no okay and did you attend his high school graduation no and why didn't you attend his high school graduation we were busy at home is my wife and I were taking him on a trip to London as a gift from graduation achievement he'd done and uh it began a tradition and we did do that right after he graduated came to Jacksonville we flew to London for it's SP about a week and we had a good time he did um and when Patrick was in the Marines did you keep in contact with him at boot camp at boot camp no and did you keep been contact with him during his first deployment in okwa yes occasional letters tell us what he doing okay and did you keep in did you remember hearing that Patrick was beinging deployed to Iraq yes and what did you think of that that's what Marines do I thought hope it's a hope he's safe I expect that's that's part of his job and when Patrick joined the Marines the US military was already had a presence in Ira correct I think so yes we were at War correct yes and and Patrick decided to enlist in the Marines at a time when we were at War correct yes and then Patrick went to war he did um did you get a chance to talk to him before he left for Iraq yes and what did y'all talk about going to war uh doing his job down out of trouble learn how to be safe and help your colleagues in the fight so it sounds like part of this conversation was a conversation between a retired captain in the Navy and a young Marine is zct no I wasn't retired at that point or not retired but part of the conversation was correct no Excuse me yes you were retired in 19 I was retired yes but part of it was imparting some military wisdom on Patrick okay yes and part of it was a conversation between a grandfather and a grandson indeed is that difficult for you no why not I knew well I knew he had a job to do and he had learned how to do it he was thriving in the Marines and after the end of high school school I thought this is a good place for him for the moment and again I hope he stays safe he knows how to do his job he'll be protect himself and his friends his his colleagues in the in the core and did you keep in contact with him when he was deployed to Iraq yes and what was that contact like letters and uh exchange of photographs lots of photos and do you remember how long he was there I think we was deployment about 8 months I think do you remember when he got back yes and did you grow close to Patrick when he returned from Iraq yes okay and can you explain to the jury how you and Patrick got to grow closer well I wanted to know what he' done what he experienced and he he told me a lot of what his job was what they did and it was some of it was hard for him to talk about but a lot of it was routine but anyway he he told me what happened what he did with there and uh I was proud of his enduring that and you said that during High School you didn't get to see Patrick as much um when Patrick returned from the Marines he lived in Jacksonville right yes and he actually lived with you for a period of time right yes he did in that period of time did y'all get to grow close oh yes and closer than you already had yes or far apart it's hard to stay much in touch and did Patrick ever open up to you about what happened in Iraq once in a while a little bit he was very tight about that it was it was different when he came back he got sobered up he was he'd been through a lot you could tell uh he was afraid of noises surprises of any kind don't sneak up on me kind of St but I could tell he was very serious and very concerned could easily startled so like he needs to return and rejoin civilians and relax okay and was that hard for him to do yeah took took a while it it was hard and did you ever witness when he was on edge yeah often and did you encourage Patrick to get help for this yes because it was evident that something happened in Iraq that changed him yes and did you take him to any VA appointments during this time I did not his father took care for a lot of that I had been con with the VA but because of my retirement I had a different uh health insurance and the VA was more difficult for me so his father was very well connected with the VA and contrary to things I'd heard before uh the VA and Jacksonville had done good medical service for both his father and for him and we've heard testimony about a marine that Patrick worked with that committed suicide during the time period after Patrick came home yes um was Patrick living with you um when this happened yes do you remember Patrick telling you about Ryan Baker a little bit yes he had a photograph of him on his mirror good buddy how did that affect Patrick it knocked him out Baker was a close friend and before they went out in the mission Baker Baker was the guy who led the group in prayer and Patrick thought he can't handle it what chance have I got he really he horned quite a bit for over Baker and he was also struggling with his own Trauma from Iraq while he was dealing with this as well yes and when Patrick came back did he um was the employed yes what kind of jobs did Patrick work he worked in construction he worked uh he got very good at tree pruning uh knocking down branches you could uh get up a pine a palm tree and hack off the old leaves and stuff make it look good but all kinds of things landscape and stuff and it's my understanding that Patrick was married during this time as well right yes he was he was actually married before his deployments ands yes um and who was he married to Shauna all right and what's your opinion of Shauna she's a great girl you got he was lucky to have her she's the mother of your great grandchild Nathan right yes and um did you in in Francis kind of take Patrick and Shawn under your wings at that time yes did you help teach Patrick how to be a father father I tried right he was natural he's he was good at it love Nathan from the guinea and after Nathan's birth at some point Patrick made a decision to return to Iraq yes um and did you have conversations with him about that yes and did you tell him what your opinion was I did uh we'd been going to college but he full he's working and uh he had a family to support he wasn't paying rent at the time but he's going to have to someday and he need to begin a career and of all the jobs he could find in Jacksonville at the time this was most lucrative thing he could find going back in fact he wasn't supposed to go to Iraq they hired him to go to Afghanistan I think I initially thought this would be a a better place something new a war yes but anyway turned out after he got going got training to change it to to Iraq and so that's how it happened um what what did you think about him going back I like it okay and why not because of what he experienced the first time um I didn't like it either way but especially Iraq do you remember how long he was gone yes his deployment was supposed to be eight or nine months I think he resigned in four months he was home that's how bad it was and do you remember how he acted when he came back oh yes we had a great welcome home event for him and U from the beginning he was kind of remote he's worse than than the previous return from deployment it was it was harder on him I guess some of these things added up I don't know glad to see him glad he was home safe but he wasn't doing well did Iraq take a part of Patrick from him I think so yeah his job during the second employment included time he spent on the gate where they were Triple Canopy was working with the army and he had made friends and uh one of these army guys came in two of them came in having uh been hurt in uh an explosion and the guy he knew came back without a head it was horrible and his job included taking photographs and documenting all the stuff I I couldn't do that myself I think Patrick told you about this yes um did did his time in Iraq affect your relationship with him I guess it made it closer probably I really felt for him and did you see if it did you see how it affected his relationship with Shauna I noticed it was difficult for her for them um and they ended up separating right they did did Patrick ever tell you why yes what did Patrick tell you he finally said to me I had to leave her because I was concerned about her safety he didn't say anything more more than that but I knew what he meant he was he's angry most of the time he short fuse never hit her or hurt her but he was afraid for her sake and I want to I want to clear that up Patrick was never physically abusive to sha at this time right never ever um do you know why Patrick was so angry and frustrated at this time and Nightmares headaches headaches that wouldn't go away despite medical medications he would have given a hard tough tough sorry tough time sleeping um it was hard from do much of anything normal at this point when Patrick had this difficulty um let me ask this do you know how Patrick coped with what he saw and did in the Marines in Triple Canopy coped yeah he sucked it up and made got through that's I coped these are Marines are taught to be toughest guys you don't you don't quit you don't give in and he made it but it hurt and have I'm going to fast forward in Patrick's life have you ever known him to use drugs yes I witnessed it but I known I've seen the effects and what year did you start seeing those effects if you remember 2018 and was Patrick living with you at this time yes at the moment I discovered this he wasn't living with this he moved but he had been up to recently in uh the fall of 2018 and at this time did Patrick have a girlfriend yes do you remember her name Haley okay and did you ever meet Haley I did how many times three or four what was your opinion of maybe more I thought here he had Shauna why would he ever be attracted that why would he ever want that and we've heard testimony that Patrick is currently on probation for a crime committed against you and your wife yes um and that Patrick wrote checks um from from your checkbook the amount of $8,000 is that correct not a physically from my checkbook for my account from your account and the total of that amount was $88,000 almost $8,000 um when you found out that about that what what was your reaction it wasn't quite shock but yeah it was shock I'm sorry I had my checkbook was in the drawer of my office my office was open he had key to house he lived with us never I never would I think he would do that but it was when I discovered the checks were written and some of those checks turned out to have the same number of checks i' already written so uh he never had didn't steal checks I think he got a copy one photograph or something and he made his own the same numbers I had been using and I you I don't write very many and was this out of character for the young boy that you taught morals to and and took on a tiger Cruise absolutely and was it out of character for the Marine that graduated boot camp yes sir and was it out of character for the sergeant that served in Iraq that you knew it was out of character and was it out of character for the the contractor that worked at Triple Canopy yes and was it out of character for for Patrick as a as a husband to shaa yes was it out of character for Patrick as the father to Nathan yes and did have you ever talk to Patrick about that yes and have you reconciled n that's not quite the right word I forgiven the theft he's apologized multiple times do you think the remorse was genuine yes as a as a victim of this crime do you remember when Patrick was referred to veterans court yes and what what was your opinion of veterans court that's great just what you might need the judge is a retired Marine attorney great guy from Jacksonville Veterans Court okay and when Patrick got in veterans cour how did he do with the treatment he started well uh I've hit him in jail and I saw that he was in his majri setup finally and uh he did what he's supposed to do he followed the rules and uh I was very optimistic and did you assist with the treatment his treatment process other than staying in touch and visiting no um and I want to fast forward to March of 2020 do you remember how Co personally affected you and your family yes okay I'm sure it affected all of us in a similar manner but how did it affect you at the time I was teaching and interrupt everything I was doing at ju uh I caught Co and before long my wife did not ever fortunately I got it twice actually yeah I got ear on and early early on during Co in March we all kind of had a shelter in place right yeah yes and so we lost contact with people that we needed contact with yes and how did it affect veterans court I think it canceled at least for a while uh I I I know one thing they they stopped holding uh uh mandatory year analysis for Patrick and for for anyone and interrupt his his cycle of uh accountability and did Patrick need that accountability absolutely he we we knew that and he did too and I want to direct your attention to September 2021 yes sir do you remember learning that Patrick was a suspect in the shooting of Deputy Moore yes I was let's say Friday that I was driving over the coasta to meet with my Navy and Marin buddies for coffee we did every week I heard the name tuned to the heard the news I couldn't believe it I couldn't I turn turned around came right back home and told my wife we turned the no and horrible the worst thing I could [Music] imagine since since Patrick's arrest in this case have you maintained contact with Patrick yes what kind of things do yall talk about now his health his Fitness is what happens to in prison in jail how he's treated how's the food all normal stuff and uh he'd been nothing but remorseful but anyway and in fact my wife and they been praying for Moyer family ever since happened and hard to take what's happened even this last couple of weeks we're so sorry and Patrick's shown that remorse too we conversations with him yes and will you maintain your relationship with Patrick yes um if given the chance in in prison do you think Patrick is capable of assisting veterans um that enter the judicial system as a mentor from prison yes okay and why do you think think that Patrick would um be capable of that he's he's recovered from his trauma to a large extent he's recovered his senses and he knows what's right and he could really help bets who go wrong go to jail he help them maybe make choices where they keep out of jail in future go the right direction he would know how to he would know what to say to those guys and that's in part because he he made bad choices and the wrong direction too right absolutely do you love Patrick I do and does he love you yes I don't have any cross examination yes good morning sir morning sir you said that related to the incident where he saw some Army individuals that were killed and he had to photograph and document those injuries yes you said you couldn't do that I don't think I could so you couldn't be a police officer either I would have to learn a lot to be police officer I saw death in the Navy but not in my ship not underway at least I saw Shipmates who died but one shipmate committed suicide at lunch in mport brand new guy no I think I couldn't do what he had to do that day at some point you and your wife bought the truck correct yes when was that I have to guess 20 15 maybe some there and then it wasn't long after that he turned around and sold the truck that yall bought him for money I didn't know that I knew he'd gotten rid of it I didn't know he sold it what you just know he got rid of yes sir yes and growing up you said and I'm understanding that there were Arrangements in place but you said um I believe that he and his dad Richard were very close they were they were inseparable in fact when he would come back to Jacksonville during the Summers and Christmas time the best time he ever had visiting his dad and Richard taught him how to be a man he did to be a good person he did and it's your opinion and your observation that Patrick McDow barely got into the Marines because he was fooling around and getting in trouble I think so I thought that um had not been for his father's involvement he might not have made it the Marines even though he initially qualified get in trouble with the laws often prevents it and so thanks to his father he could get in so you were aware that his father pulled some strings to get in in I don't think it's wasn't illegal he knew some people he he pulled the right strings yes I didn't I didn't mean to imply it was illegal but it it was essentially his efforts that got him into the absolutely and you said that that related to Triple Canopy you were aware that Patrick McDow quit Triple Canopy correct yes he resigned in May instead of lasting till August September it was that bad but he voluntarily left yes and the Chris Baker suicide that you spoke of that did not occur until roughly 2017 correct it was 2015 15 years later and you said that you spoke on occasion to Mr McDow about what happened overseas um and at some point during those conversations at least it's known among your family that Patrick had to kill a lot of innocent people is that correct I know what a lot but he was involved in killing yes innocent people I'm not sure they were innocent I don't know maybe you thought they were well did you tell defense investigators that he told you or or told the family that he had to kill a lot of innocent people okay I may have said that uh I didn't mean to exaggerate he he told you that he had to do or maybe you described it this way based on what he told you but that while there he had to do horrible dehumanizing things yes and you're not sure what those things were correct and you're not sure whether he actually did have to do horrible dehumanizing things but he just told you that he told me that with conviction I believe him and he you're not sure whether he actually had to kill people and if he did whether they were innocent or not he just told you that I had no other source of information yes he told me I believe him because you want to believe your grandson correct because I witnessed the effects of that deployment on him adverse effects you said that um you thought that Haley was a bad influence right yes but on the other side of the coin you did not perceive her to be overbearing or controlling right I didn't see her do much of anything he was introduced to her by a friend after sha had left and uh again I didn't never understood why but what what interaction you did have with her and what observation you had of their relationship you did not perceive her to be overbearing or controlling correct correct and it was your opinion that the defendant just simply wanted to be with her right I thought so you described the veterans treatment program as I believe your word was great correct yeah the I idea of his getting involved with that was very good for him at the time yes yes sir and just out of curiosity is one of obviously you did not want to um report I don't want to put words in your mouth I'm assuming you probably did you were torn at least about reporting what the defendant had done to the police as far as the checks correct no that was that was last straw I wasn't so reluctant I might have said earlier now I I made the with my wife we made the decision report it that's way too much money and it's a theft so I guess the better way to phrase the question what I'm getting at is is it fair to say that your um the the outcome that you were hoping for from that situation was to get him help forced help essentially yes sir and from your perspective veterans treatment Court was great and in fact that Court gave him a lot of chances is that fair to say it did yes and at one point the defendant was enrolled in the five star program and that's you were aware of that twice I believe and at one point you actually yourself went to the five-star program yes to see it walk around meet some people and ex see see Mr McDonald and Colonel loving his wife so you met them yes and uh you actually knew some of the people there I knew the colonel from before yes sir and they were all good people oh yes and they were all willing and able to help him they were and you knew that he was welcomed there correct yes I know you said that you um love the defendant loved him before still love him now and and that's it's fair to say the whole family still loves him is that true yes and every step of the way you tried to help the defendant yes and so did the whole family yes and he received Second Chances multiple times and third chances and chance after chance in your eyes correct yes no further questions redirect yes Mr W when he had a conversation with the state attorney about when Patrick got into trouble in high school um and join the Marines through help of his father right you remember and you said initially before he got into trouble he qualified to enlist in the Marines right yes so in high school so in high school Patrick enlisted a deferred enlistment right yes um which means that he had enlisted in the Marines right yes and that was before he got in trouble yes is there any reason for you to believe that Patrick went into the Marines to get out of the trouble that he was in high school no and why is that you explained to the he wanted to be a marine he was great that his father helped him maybe Escape he know he no longer would be living in the environment where he's got in trouble go to boot camp and it would knock some sense into him and it always happens but he if you pass he even wanted to do that before he got in trouble right yes um and I know the state said that you told an investigator that Patrick told you to kill innocent people you kind of exaggerated maybe that they were inocent right I don't know if I did or not but I didn't mean to and that Patrick told you that he had to do horrible things he did okay when you had this conversation with Patrick was he seeking any type of like VA benefits or anything was unrelated yes he was seeking but that was not why he spoke to me but that conversation wasn't in relation to seeking a benefit right no yes was not that conversation wasn't related to seeking any kind of mitigation for this case right no that was to explain some of what he went through so and that was before he got arrested yes okay um and in the 34 years that you were in the military it's fair to say that you um have some experience with war yes and Patrick has his own experiences with war yes how hard is it to talk about war well I've been in com combat situations twice once in the 60s and once in the 80s 60s with Vietnam and in the 80s I was a commanding a mind sweeper in a live Minefield in the persi gulf and you know that there's a chance that like will explode under you destroy your ship and kill some people maybe everyone so you're on you're state of tension sounds like the thank you where was I I'm sorry I asked you the question was how hard is it to talk about war oh I'm sorry um what I knew what I do know is that with that handpicked jump patoon those guys for eight months they were there every day they woke up afraid they'd die that day they would drive around travel with a colonel who was always under threat and they were Targets in that sense and every day they feared it might might be their last day this stress far exceeded anything I I endured I know it was tough for all of them and uh I I can see how that gives you PSD right but I I guess more specific and I thank you for the insight to that but more specifically when Patrick came home and have these conversations with you about it how hard was it for him to talk about those things he didn't want to do it he didn't want to do it I didn't I pr him but I it took some time but we talked over over the course of weeks and he opened up a little so it would have been difficult for him to talk to you about the hard things that he had to do right yes and he didn't want to do that didn't not want to all right witness May step down excused all right this time defense all right ladies and gentlemen the defense has arrested their case and chief state has an opportunity to present rebuttal evidence and testim for your consideration I believe there will be one witness in rebuttal is that correct that's correct and just real quickly come sidebar so we can talk scheduling again as the attorneys are making their way back just trying to get a sense of you know what the how long the next witness will take it may take us an hour to finish this witness we we'll go into the noon hour but that will be it so we're instead of breaking for lunch and you know coming back I think soon most would prefer to finish the witness testimony and that will will end the evidence and testimony for this case and then we'll have to talk a little bit before I send you home okay so I'll turn to the state call your first rebuttal witness state would call Dr John M you Solly swear or affirm the testimony you're about to give will be the truth truth and nothing but the truth kind of move that chair up it's a little hard to maneuver sometimes you may proceed thank you honor good morning sir good morning can you please introduce yourself to the jury and spell your name from mam court reporter sure my name is John Mt j hn m u n DT I'm a clinical psychologist and Sir where did you receive your education and training to become qualified for that field I completed all of my graduate training Master's and doctorate degree at the University of North Carolina in 1992 and prior to that where did you your undergrad studies as well that was also at North Carolina and Chapel Hill and uh could you please explain the training that you received to prepare you for a career in the field of pychology uh well I was a Psychology major to begin with and undergraduate but then in Graduate School uh training included practicum placements training placements in a number of different settings uh that included a a year and a half long basically a part-time or a full-time job depending on the time at the Federal Bureau of Prisons facility in Butner North Carolina and that was where I received formal forensics training um so that included completing evaluation such as the one I completed with Mr McDow in this case it also included testifying in court um I worked in a pilot drug abuse treatment program for inmates um who had addictions I worked in a sex offender treatment program I completed evaluations of inmates just in terms of suicidality and risk for escape and that sort of thing um and then I completed uh what in Psychology we call a post-doctoral internship which is basically a year of work at the end of graduate school that's still supervised it's still considered training um it's the same thing basically as The Residency that Physicians complete so I was at the uh Ravenswood Community Mental Health Center in Chicago I had relocated for that and in that facility I worked with kids and Adolescence and families as well as adults who'd all been through trauma um usually inner city trauma but I certainly worked with Veterans as well um and then following the the completion of that internship I stayed in Chicago and I was hired by the Jesse Brown VA Medical Center there and that turned out to be where I spent a 30-year career working in the VA uh my first four years in the VA I was a um just an outpatient psychologist with a pretty large case load of clients um very diverse in terms of what brought them to the VA didn't have to be trauma or PTSD but it often was um veterans from Vietnam were a huge part of my case load there uh from that was my first four years for the subsequent 26 years I was the psychologist in the facility's day Hospital program and this was basically a crisis program that veterans um of any era could attend um that was daily treatment outpatient for anywhere from 4 to 8 weeks so this was for people who were in a crisis and would never have done well in a less intensive setting but they didn't necessarily need to be hospitalized on an inpatient unit so we would see them every day and there's never been a day where I haven't been grateful for those years I got to spend there the because of the high stakes because these were very acute cases veterans that literally were on the verge of suicide or had had gotten in a lot of trouble for various things um we were given a wide birth by the VA we were really able to work very flexibly and do what we thought people needed at the time so that meant in addition to providing individual therapy group therapy family and marital therapy we also got to be advocates for the veterans in the community I would testify at civil and criminal trials um if my veterans were clients um we also could do home visits we worked with their prob probation officers with their landlords uh with creditors we worked with um colleges and universities if they were struggling to function in school just got to do a lot of really successful work and one thing that I'm really proud of is that in 30 years in that role uh we never lost a veteran in that program to Suicide which if you know anything about veteran suicide in this country that was something that we were I think justifiably pretty proud of the approach simply worked um 80% of the veterans in that program at any given time eight out of 10 were dealing with trauma of some nature and or PTSD um because trauma and PTSD are not the same thing um and for the facility overall the Jesse Brown VA 80% of veterans who utilized us had a current or recent substance abuse problem along with whatever the mental health issue was so we worked with a lot of people who are so-called duly diagnosed meaning they're dealing with mental health issues as well as substance abuse and addiction um in that role I was also a trainer and a supervisor for uh students um graduate students in Psychology but also medical students psychiatric residents Social Work interns pharmac y students um I was a um evaluator of PTSD in my context as a treating clinician so I would evaluate veterans um in terms of intake to the program um we also of course would support disability applications for veterans who were applying for claims and I also was involved in evaluating the va's police officers um for hiring and also just for Fitness for um carrying firearms which had be regularly evaluated in their jobs doctor let me interrupt for a second um to hold that position with VA did you have to have any special certifications or LIC I I've always been licensed I should say I've been licensed since I received my doctorate in Psychology in the state of Illinois um I'm also certified in prolonged exposure therapy which is a specific research-based therapy for PTSD although that's not a requirement for employment there during the course of your employment 30 years of va could you estimate approximately how many veterans uh treated and became involved in their treatment programs well actually when I retired I I retired from federal service at the end of 2022 somebody else calculated it for me it was more than 5,000 veterans that I had interacted with professionally or clinically since your retirement have you stopped your practice of clinical uh treat veterans and other individuals I have not uh I now am I now have a full-time private practice that includes therapy several days a week and about a third of my current therapy clients are veterans um and then I also well that's been a part of my part-time job you could say that uh throughout the 30 years in the VA I've always had I guess you could call it a side hustle I've always done work outside of the VA which we're permitted to do so that's always involved either seeing therapy clients or also doing forensic evaluations so I've always done a bit of that over the years beginning in 2012 I started to do a lot more of this kind of work and when you say this kind of work you're talking about forensic evaluations I am such as the one I completed in this case and obviously we've heard from other forensic uh experts throughout the course of this case so I won't get into the nature of what forensic experts do because they they've heard that before however um your experience in forensics have you been qualified and allowed to give expert opinions in court I have um what type of proceedings and approximately um I'm actually going to refer to a a list of those in terms of the number civil and criminal proceedings it's about it's like about 15 16 times I think often the evaluations don't um go to the point where I'm called to testify but you've been involved in forensic work since 2012 since 2005 but more regularly since 2012 do you also have any experience as a trainer and speaker in in providing educational programs related to your area I do uh beginning in 2007 a part of my private work outside the VA became providing seminars training events on Veterans mental health issues or on PTSD and Trauma in General um to a range of audiences most of those audiences were mental health professionals but I've also done a lot of training for law enforcement agencies and officers including the drug enforcement um Administration um and the um Social Work networks the probation department in Chicago I've done events for family members and I've done quite a few events for attorneys and for judges as well and does that include criminal defense attorneys it does and how do you do what type of topics would you discuss when you discussed legal issues in Psychology with judges and lawers the the focus of I would say probably 80% of the seminars I presented to attorneys or judges was was usually about post-traumatic stress disorder and Trauma in the post 911 generation of veterans so basically what we were seen as mental health professionals as clinicians and what I knew knew that they were also seeing in courtrooms um what kind of cases would get veterans into trouble and have them appear before a judge I'd like to direct your attention to the work that you performed in the State of Florida versus Patrick McDow how did you first become involved in this case uh well I was I remember I was contacted by you Mr khil I think it was probably June of 2022 um possibly early July um I remember we discussed um I I typically in this kind of work have been an advocate for veterans um and I remember telling you I was going to be very straightforward and Frank about what I thought I could say and what I couldn't say what I believed um but I remember we had that conversation early and that's when I was retained and at the point in time when you were retained um at that juncture the defendant had not quite be a to correct I believe that's true and at that juncture uh other reports in uh regards to defense experts were not available and were not provided to you that's correct not at that point in beginning your work in consultation in this particular case uh what were you asked to review and what opinions were you asked to provide well those were I I believe three-fold I was asked to review any materials or records or interviews or deposition transcripts that were sent to me um and if asked also then to complete an evaluation myself of Mr McDow um that would be after of course also being asked to review the reports and the evaluations and the notes of other experts that the defense head had retained did you also have the opportunity to review military records uh VA records uh basically any records related to this defendant's military service serviced with military contractors and any interaction he may have had with the mental health field I did review those did you want me to summarize those or just briefly just to summarize so the jury has an idea of what you started reviewing even before evaluations took place well before um the the other experts interviewed Mr McDowell or I ever met with him I reviewed the VA medical records that were available I reviewed the US Marine Corps Department of Defense records uh the triple canopy records which were largely Human Resources employment records um I reviewed a range of law enforcement records including details of arrests uh prior to the the one in the current case um I also um reviewed depositions um and I don't know if I'm getting ahead of you here but I in the end I think I reviewed more 30 dep depositions of various persons um called in this case I I conducted nine of my own own collateral interviews with people um including um multiple different Marines who had served with Mr McDow during his tour in Iraq including Colonel nent and uh Lieutenant Middleton um I also interviewed a couple of vet Court personnel and I believe one or two people who had served with him in the triple canopy contractor service did you also have the occasion during your work up in this case to actually review Communications uh from the defending himself I did um actually beginning I think in October of 2022 um I began reviewing tablet messages exchanged between Mr McDow and various members of his family um basically month-to month reviewing those those messages beginning um with messages that were exchanged in October of 2021 uh shortly after he was arrested and then up until the the day after his um evaluation with me which was February 16th of this year and how can the sort of candid review of communications be helpful in your evaluations well I I I found it a very interesting experience I I've never been asked to review um tablet messages over basically almost two years this way and I I felt like it was a great way to actually get to know a little bit more about him who he is his um relationships um how how all of the people in his sphere uh were impacted by this um how he's been impacted by it um it gave me a good sense of his mindset it also was a window in some ways into how he was doing psychologically uh what symptoms was he reporting to families what struggles was he having getting medications things like that and I think you had mentioned this at some point in time before your evaluation M MD provided uh evaluations and reports of other experts who examined Mr mcdal and and reviewed those I was provided with those I reviewed the reports and the related notes uh from four different independent uh professionals who were retained by the defense and specifically um you received information uh related to uh Dr Buffington correct Dr Buffington correct uh information from dril m yes and information related to Dr Ryan Hall that's correct and so you had the opportunity to review those reports in conjunction with your other work in this case even before you had the opportunity to sit down and meet with the defend that's correct um did you find this workup for lack of a better term necessary before you actually had the opportunity to sit down and meet with absolutely necessary um why is that well because um having worked in the VA for 30 years I I definitely feel like I know both the benefits and the shortfalls of that particular medical record I know what to look for and where to look um how to interpret what I'm reading so seeing the VA medical records um to me is always a first step before completing an evaluation of a veteran doesn't tell you everything certainly but it tells you an awful lot um it also tells you not just the content but it lets you know the the the veterans particular journey through the VA system how long did they engage in therapy if they did how when did they come and go what were the reasons that brought them in so that was very important as were the other records and eventually did you have the opportunity to conduct your own personal evaluation of the defendant Patrick McDow I did you see him here in the courtroom today I do and when did that evaluation take place uh that was uh February 16th 2024 did you fly down to Florida to conduct that evaluation in person yes I did how long did that evaluation take place that was an 8.5h hour evaluation and was anybody else present with you during the course of this evaluation yes M Mr McDow of course but also Mr chipperfield was present for the duration um explain how your valuation interview took place what did you ask the defendant in an effort to learn more about him and his situation I I would say my interview style is somewhat conversational so I have an outline in mind and I have an outline printed out a standard psychological interview um to look at developmental history to look meaning meaning his childhood his background to look at his education and employment um to look and employment of course in this case would include a pretty detailed military history to get a sense of why and when does a person go into the military what are their goals what are they end up doing um of course any deployments um any struggles after those deployments and that also included um speaking about the contractor service with the triple canopy company um I also uh look at medical history I'm not a physician but certainly I want to know what medical and health conditions somebody has that can impact mental health um did a pretty uh substantial interview about substance abuse um the particular substances when for how long um we interviewed about legal history um just involvement in the justice system and again I I think I am conversational in my style so we ranged we jumped around a bit um we also talked very specifically about some of the things that Mr McDow had reported to the other uh mental health professionals who had evaluated him by that time um or things that they had quoted in their reports that I just wanted to check out independently for myself so I asked him at some length about specific events from Iraq both of his tours both of his deployments um we talked about mental health symptoms we talked about his State of Mind his living situation in the weeks and the days leading up to this offense uh we talked about the day of and the offense itself self um and also we talked a little bit about the aftermath when he was on the run as he says and um had not yet been arrested okay um specifically uh before I get into your evaluation conclusions related to PTSD and other diagnoses I'd like to talk to you a little bit about what he was able to report to you about his drug use specifically what history did he provide to you about his drug well I I would say Mr McDowell's presentation with me was um quite consistent with his presentation with the other experts who evaluated him um he was very forthcoming very Frank about um what his substance abuse history has been um are you asking about his experience with all of the various drugs or well primarily his when did his substance abuse first begin well based I and I should say too that an evaluation of this nature the interview is a part of it it's a it's a large part of it it's certainly my opportunity to get to know somebody and to get a sense for myself of who they are how they think how do they report but of course I also draw from all of those other sources of information that were made available to me so it's hard for me to completely parse out what I know of his addiction and his substance abuse just from the interview piece but from the evaluative process overall um I believe that substance of started in his case as an adolescent with drinking and he even reported other harder uses of uh other illegal substances even before he entered the military I believe he had at least tried cocaine um and as you stated his reports to you were very consistent with the reports that he provided to the other experts in regards to substance abuse generally so specifically in addition to asking about substance abuse um you were aware going into this evaluation that the issue for lack of a better term was posttraumatic stress dis correct I certainly knew that that was one of the issues that was going to be looked at so in reviewing and diagnosing post-traumatic stress disorder um is one of the things you have to look for what I think you all refer to is index events or index traumas that would a source of trauma to a particular individual that's correct and in your interview what index traumas did you discuss with the defendant Mr MCD well the the particular index traumas um that were most relevant to me uh were things that occurred during his Triple Canopy Service uh for example he had reported to me that unlike the Marines deployment in 2009 um which uh has been pretty consistently described as not quite so kinetic as um other times in Iraq were um whereas during that time um he doesn't appear to have been involved in um combat or direct fire situations um whereas in triple canopy in that service um he reported uh having to respond to at least on several occasions to attempted incursions by hostiles by by Iraqis into the American B base the army base um and having to fire at military age males um was I believe the term that either he used or I used um there were also other specific incidents during that triple canopy tour that um have been reported by other people such as the death of believe he was a lieutenant or a captain Omar Vasquez um and a couple of other incidents as well but the but the primary index events for me were from that triple canopy tour okay but specifically this defendant told you he fired that insurgence coming into the army base with his own weapon in direct fire I I believe so that he did fire and that they were I'm not sure if they were in the base or attempting to get in why was it that the triple canopy experiences in your opinion were more significant than the EXP WR well I'm not sure that I would use the term significant I think that the Marine Corps deployment was significant too I I don't doubt at all that it was life-changing that it was stressful that he felt danger and threat can certainly be a piece of a PTSD diagnosis despite the absence of combat but the triple canopy experience has been consistently described by Mr McDow as involving active combat conditions which where where literally this was just a I hate to use the word more dangerous but it was more imminently dangerous time and things actually happened and and I guess just as significantly there's also just the impact on him following that particular deployment I think he was more psychologically impacted by the triple triple canopy deployment than by the Marine Corps deployment so during the Marine Corps deployment he reported to you that at no point in time was he involved in troops in contact in that's correct from from all of the sources that I would so the primary source of Trauma from the Marine Corps deployment would it been indirect fire and threaded bys things of that nature it it would have been the persisting um Regular danger of attack of um hitting an IED or or roadside bomb um and then also just proximity to some injuries that happened to other people not with witnessing them but being aware of them um being involved for example in a medical evacuation um but during the course of his Marine deployment he never indicated to you that he was struck by an ID during the course of his travs no um a vehicle that not not during the Marine Corps deployment no and he suffered indirect fire meaning you could hear and we've had multiple descriptions of indirect fire rockets and mortars were fired indiscriminately into their locations yes and that was a constant threat sort of a sort of a constant state of threat that all the Marines in uh second Battalion first Marine experienced during that all of the Marines I spoke with said that so what steps do you take once you've learned and it sounds like you definitively spoke with the defendant and identified possible sources of trauma that could be resulted in PTSD what are the next steps in you making that type of diagnosis well there's there's two parts to that one is um some symptoms I don't have to assess for necessarily because he can spontaneously report them over the course of the interview and he did report some symptoms of PTSD both Uh current and past at different times in his life um and then I did specifically ask about other symptoms as well okay and what symptoms was he spontaneously reping well in this is it's important to emphasize that this is PTSD symptoms at various points in time not necessarily on the day that I was meeting with him but for example perhaps after Triple Canopy um after coming home or after the Marine Corps deployment so for sure um I remember pretty vividly that after the Marine Corps deployment he was having some trouble sleeping he was experiencing a heightened anger um including some struggles with driving as a result of that um all of which are Super common in war zone veterans when they return home whether it becomes PTSD or not was he Everly formally diagnosed with PT by the VA after his Iraqi deployment no he wasn't explain why that was well this is this is where again I think my my familiarity with the VA system and I'm no longer an employee so I can speak very freely now about the some of the limitations of that system um the problem with the VA system of diagnosing is that um even a provisional diagnosis uh a a not quite formal a not completed diagnosis can get repeated again and again in the person's chart in their medical record so in Mr mcdow's case he sought treatment and he went through the usual course of the of the extended evaluation in the VA for new veterans which means you come in and Report you get evaluated you see Primary Care you then go to a mental health evaluation often with the psychiatrist who may or may not prescribe medicine um did in this case and then you get referred to a formal PTSD clinic or trauma Services Clinic evaluation which is going to usually be with a psychiatrist or a psychologist where there's a detailed interview that focuses on whether or not a diagnosis of PTSD is appropriate so it's a very involved process um multiple steps in other words that a veteran has to show up for um when he was evaluated by the VA psychologist in 2010 she concluded that while PTSD symptoms appeared to be there um his distress at the time um the the impact of those symptoms on him was minimal was the word that she she used and that is actually a criteria of PTSD that even if you have the requisite number of symptoms you still have to be suffering from that it has to be impacting you in some way um I I could add that lots of people present with PTSD symptoms but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's disabling I know working police officers who have PTSD I know psychologists with PTSD um so he was evaluated as having sub threshold Das mild PTSD versus adjustment disorder um and an adjustment disorder is it's an it's a psychiatric diagnosis but it's a bit of a a catchall diagnosis and some clinicians very cynically call it an insurance diagnosis because if you diagnose a therapy patient with an adjustment disorder insurance will pay for the therapy typically but you're really just saying that this person is going through a process of adjustment in their life to something it's very common in R turning veterans um that they get diagnosed with an adjustment disorder because they don't have all the symptoms of PTSD and it's assume that if we give this person a couple of months to adjust to re acclimate to living in the civilian world to basically calm down slow down um and provide treatment for them during this time that they're not ever going to develop PTSD and the majority of returning veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan never developed PTSD that that's simply the the statistical truth so in Mr mcdow's Case what he was given in 2010 was actually a provisional diagnosis where the psychologist literally said we want you to come back attend therapy we're going to continue this evaluation before making a formal diagnosis of PTSD the problem again is that those diagnoses tend to stay in the chart and if you read through his extended VA medical record all the way up until the time of his arrest in this case you see how various people without doing an eval valuation drop that PTSD term into the chart um I think sometimes it does a real disservice to a veteran when this doesn't get diagnosed the right way uh for example his primary care doctor is the one who called it PTSD both in 2012 and then also in 2018 um so there never really has been a time in Mr mcdow's individual journey through the VA system where PTSD was conclusively diagnosed that didn't happen until the evalu in this case by me Dr Hall and Dr motto well and let's be clear in your opinion Mr McDow actually does suffer from PTSD I do believe he does how was that affecting him and what symptoms was he describing to you in the Years following Triple Canopy leading up to his arrest in this Cas well he was experiencing um intense hypervigilance um uh just scanning for threats feeling unsafe he was experiencing sleeping problems and I believe nightmares too um he was certainly trying to avoid thinking about events or getting triggered to think about events uh that happened from his service and the avoidance is a the avoidance is actually the real disability of PTSD it's all of the things that a person does to not be triggered to not be reminded so sometimes that actually means not talking about it simply but it can also mean um not being in touch with your feelings being numb um and I think that that's been described by relatives and also I saw it described in the in the chart I believe but despite this avoidance uh after returning from Triple Canopy he was able to maintain gainful employment he was I didn't see indications of actual disability coming from PTSD until harder cord drug abuse started is there any way that you can tell that why an individual starts parore drug AB I'm sorry Mr khil can you repeat that yeah can you attribute the use of harder drugs to PTSD or could there be other reasons why he was using other drugs there always can be other reasons I I think the self-medication term is is usually a bit broad I mean technically speaking anybody who uses a drug um is self-medicating um if I get up and drink coffee in the morning because I'm fatigued I'm using the I'm self-medicating my fatigue with coffee um alcohol marijuana um leading up to harder drugs like cocaine heroin other opiates methamphetamine there can always be a self-medicating component to it um but it's not the only reason that people use drugs people use drugs because they make them feel good if if heroin and methamphetamine made you feel terrible the first time You' probably never use them again and during this time frame between 2011 and 20 21 when this incident occurred how was the defendant using illegal narcotics repeat the time frame you wanted me to address post Triple Canopy until the date of this arrest um to to the best of my knowledge as I sit here today I believe that the the cocaine use started in in Earnest in 2011 if I'm remembering right without looking at anything here um it wasn't until I think a bit later that he started to use heroin um which actually heroin followed I believe other opiates um like roxies um what are roxies just forur it's it's a prescription opiate um I think it's Roxy hypol I forget the the term the the name of the medication but the street name is roxies and it's an opiate so the progression was initially cocaine then into the opiates um I believe so and they they certainly overlapped um he reported to me at least that he stopped using both of those more or less around the same time around the time of his arrest and incarceration during veterans court 2019 April I think and and you were aware of his admission to what's been referred to int The Matrix program in custody drug treatment program I was aware of that and after the Matrix program did the cocaine and opioid use cease at that Junction it it did at least for a while um you know I can't be sure [Music] um all all I can't be sure of which drugs he may or may not have used occasionally um during that period of time but he certainly was seen by the veterans court as compliant and well engaged and he was participating in urine testing so um they would have known describe what this defendant told you about his methan he he spontaneously told me I think twice during the interview that he first used methamphetamine with a female resident of the halfway house on the night that co services were shut down in March of um excuse me not covid services but Drug Testing Services monitoring Services were shut down in March of 2020 due to co so the very night that he learned he wasn't going to be drug tested that's the first time he used meth that's what he told me did he tell you how methamphetamine affected him and why he used it he I'm I'm trying to remember here if he told me this or if it was something that I read certainly there were times where he mentioned that he liked that drug because it kept him awake sometimes for days at a time and he didn't have to sleep um didn't have to have nightmares so he certainly mentioned that um he also mentioned some of the other effects that I don't know were were pleasant or desired but the the sort of Illusions and hallucinations spatial distortions um and also a pretty powerful um effect on his logic sometimes that he's mentioned before that it just he made decisions that weren't sound but that felt sound to him at the time so in discussions with him about the defendant about his drug use did he ever bring up or was there ever a discussion about seizures that he I did ask him about the seizures that he had reported to other doct doctors and that were in the VA medical record what did he tell you about that uh he told me basically that they were drug related seizures and that when he stopped using drugs they hadn't recurred um I also think it's notable to my knowledge he hasn't had any since he's been off the drugs in in custody was the presence in course of PTSD clear in your review of Mr McDow your the presence in the course of PTSD are not clear in this case why not well I I guess first I want to emphasize again because I think this is important PTSD and Trauma are not the same thing um a lot of times in our society we conflate those two we say that a veteran who went through a combat trauma has to be disabled has to be ill um so you can go through a trauma trauma or traumas those are events those are things that happen to you they may or may not lead to PTSD post-traumatic stress disorder is really just one possible outcome of traumatic events and it's certainly not the only event what's very common is that after any kind of trauma people including veterans can have post-traumatic symptoms so maybe they're dealing with insomnia maybe they're dealing with intrusive thoughts that they'd rather not think about maybe they're feeling hypervigilant or or threatened threatened but a few of these symptoms don't necessarily constitute PTSD which by definition is a very specifically defined condition so I'm emphasizing that because I think that's the reason that when the diagnosis has never really been formally made in a conclusive way um when there's been pretty minimal engagement in mental health treatment over time um meaning that there really is no therapist or Doctor Who's regularly tracking this and saying well this month he has these symptoms last week he was dealing with this there really is no record um by uh responsible people in terms of what was going on and also f i factor into this that um a lot of what we know about Mr mcdow's PTSD symptoms is his own report um and I don't necessarily doubt him about the consistency of some of these symptoms but um self-report is always generally something that we're going to look at as a little bit of a suspect Source um there's also reports from family members in terms of how he was doing after the two deployments but um those also can be questionable sometimes there were some things reported by family members that turned out to really not be accurate such as Mr McDow reportedly killing a small child in Iraq and that turned out to um he was something that he denied to me that anything like that had happened you specifically asked him during your evaluation about that because you reviewed the statements of the I I did I asked about probably nine or 10 different specific traumatic events that had been reported either to Dr Hall or Dr motto or by family members in their depositions or their interviews with the defense team um so in addition to that do post-traumatic symptoms wax and wne over time they do um there are there are actually 20 symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder um it's possible to meet people who have all 20 of these symptoms I've met people with all 20 and those are severely impacted quite disabled people um but it actually only requires for the diagnosis that six symptoms be present at any given time so from four different symptom clusters you would need to have one or two from those symptom clusters and then you would meet the criteria for PTSD so in other words it's possible to be diagnosed with PTSD if you're having a few symptoms six symptoms or the full 20 that's there this differs from person to person and I think it's another point I always feel is important to make that PTSD in one veteran doesn't necessarily look exactly the same as PTSD and another veteran it depends on what the specific experiences were so for example if PTSD stems largely from bombardment from taking artillery strikes and mortar rounds but maybe this person never went outside the wire or in other words never left the relative safety of an American base they maybe never fired their weapon um they could have a different set of symptoms from PTSD I always say that if you interview the Survivor of a sexual assault you're going to get a very different kind of PTSD than if you interv interview a survivor of a hurricane the triggers are different the symptoms are different the impact is different do you believe it's possible to state with any accuracy in your expert opinion that Mr McDow was suffering or active in PTSD symptoms and that it impacted his conduct on the date the deputy Warriors was killed I I don't e e e e also to Dr M about the these are my words not his the the the failure of logic in his case making decisions about what to do um knowing full well for example that he had a stolen van that contained stolen weapons drugs um he had a warrant for his arrest he was facing 30 years in prison in Georgia according to his report um all of this was on his mind yet he described it as feeling like a good idea to go out and do some trail riding and shoot guns you've reviewed Dr M's report and conclusions do you believe fight or flight was an active response responsible for this defendant's conduct on September 23rd 2021 I don't think there's evidence for that why not well the figh ORF flight response is it's a it's an automatic very rapid response um that's age-old in human beings that we're wired to respond to a threat an immediate imminent threat to our physical safety our personal safety our life um by either getting away as fast as we can flight or fighting the source um it's also a concept that's still evolving by the way now um in recent years clinicians have started to use the term fight flight or freeze because it's recognized that there aren't just two responses there's a third and even now you you'll read articles about fight flight freeze or Fawn that some people respond to a threat by sort of cozying up to the threat for example trying to get an abusive husband not to beat you if you're his wife so there's a bunch of of different responses to stress but the point is that they're rapid they're they involve a flush of chemicals adrenaline specifically and it's instantaneous really um it's milliseconds to to have this happen um what I noticed there were several things that I think lead me to feel differently than Dr MTO does about this uh one is that I've watched the the video of the six-minute interaction between Deputy M Moyers and Mr McDow um listen to what was said could watch Deputy Moyer's Behavior at no time did I see him behave in a threatening or a provocative or an aggressive manner um there was nothing startling about the way that he moved um I also note that I think relevant to this Mr mcdow's particular war zone experiences don't include what we would call Close Quarters combat um used to be called hand-to-hand combat but in other words um I didn't feel that there was anything in that particular situation even when the deputy just reaches out and touches the door the door handle or the door the door jam um that would have particularly triggered PTSD responses in Mr McDowell those just really weren't the nature of his uh PTSD symptoms or his experiences over there um his narrative also um of the event to me to Dr MTO and in the the most recent testimony is really very clear very logical he had a a a pretty clear presence of mind I think despite the methamphetamine at least the The Narrative of it is very clear so it's just not described in a way that suggests that this was um fight or flight did he ever describe threat of personal harm to himself life and land I I don't believe he's ever stated that he thought he was about to be shot or about to be killed or harmed what was the quote unquote threat that was presented by Deputy moers on the side of the road on September 23rd what he has said is that he knew he was going to be arrested if he had to get out of the car and is threat of arrest something that triggers fight or flight response not necessarily did he describe his his actions from when he first saw Deputy Moyers in the gas station parking lot until when the actual shooting took place he did um to Dr motto to me and then in testimony what did you take from his description of his actions well I what I took and I and I'm thinking here specifically of the testimony that I viewed just a couple of days ago um he expected he was going to be followed he expected he was going to be pulled over that there would be a traffic stop um and he expected that he might have to shoot Dr the deputy Moyers in order to avoid being arrested and jailed and that process was over the course of at least six to 10 minutes during the course of the encounter before the shop was actually fired the the video file from Deputy Moyer's dashboard cam includes roughly six minutes of interaction between the two of them with the deputy standing next to the vehicle but that doesn't include the conduct in the parking lot of the gas station and then traveling down 301 until the deputy uh activated his emergency vehicle I didn't see any video of the gas station I did I do believe the video begins with Deputy Moyers uh traveling behind Mr McDowell's vehicle and then turning off onto the the road where the shooting occurred but there's the the six-minute interaction is when the deputy is out of his car interacting with him Dr Manu based upon your training your experience and your work with Veterans for over 30 years do you believe that post-traumatic stress disorder had any impact on the defendant at the time when he killed Deputy Joshua MERS I can't say that in this case what do you think the motive was behind the killing and the reason were behind the killing I I I feel like it's actually very clear he he was desperate not to go back to jail thank you I have any fur questions cross afternoon Dr mat hi Mr chipperfield I'm sorry I've been called M twice now just close by me um I may do it again um Dr M your conclusion is that Mr McDow acquired PTSD or had PTSD um at least after his service with triple can intera I believe that's when it becomes pretty clear-cut where I felt comfortable saying yes I think this looks like it was full-blown PTSD and when you saw him at your evaluation you believed he had PTSD then I believe he does meet the criteria at that time at least minimally so he had it from when he got back from Triple Canopy in 2011 and he's got it in 2024 and you said that very often PTSD leads to substance abuse in fact I think you said 80% of people you treat in one of your groups of the veterans you treat have problems with substance abuse as well as the well I didn't actually say that it leads to it but that they co-occur it can lead to substance abuse but that's not the only reason that people become icted and you said that it's your belief that PTSD is not connected to the shooting of Deputy Moyers but drug abuse is the effects of drug abuse yes you said that he was intoxicated on methamphetamine at the time of this year yes I believe that he would have still been under the influence of that drug so your conclusion is then that he had PTSD he still has it he had substance abuse which is common for veterans but only the substance abuse affected his actions respect well the substance abuse um apprehension about being jailed certainly um he was it's it's not possible to say and this is what I'm stating Mr chipperfield it's not possible to say here that PTSD was driving his behavior because it's if if it were there um and it's possible he met the criteria it just has not been demonstrated because there's these other factors that uh Dominate and that clouded the issue but my question isn't really whether it's driving his behavior is there a Nexus is there a Nexus between this PTSD that existed at the beginning and at the end and his drug use it's possible that he self-medicated PTSD symptoms at various points he he told us so me and the other evaluators um you've worked for the VA for a long time and you recognize the sacrifice that veterans give when they go overseas on a deployment in a war I I do I absolutely respect Mr mcdow's military service and you recognize that military service is valuable whether they go to a war zone or not absolutely and whether they come home injured with physical injury or PTSD or not yes that's true and if they do come home with a physical injury or mental injury due to their service to the country then they've given even a greater sacrifice I I think the phrase that I like to apply to that situation is that all gave some some gave all um I believe everybody makes a sacrifice when they serve in the military greater would be subjective and if they come home with a permanent if they come home with a mental condition they hadn't had when they went there then it's a greater sacrifice or do you say it's equal to somebody who doesn't come home with an injury I I think I would say it's a sacrifice um I just think it's a very it's a very complicated concept but definitely that's a sacrifice it's a hardship the loss of good mental health is something that you you may not ever get back that's possible especially without treatment now in your report you said that the the meth that he was taking on that day and that he had been taking during the binge he was on may even have have caused a meth induced psychosis that's correct I said that and if that happened that would be a loss of touch with reality it could be there are there are degrees of psychosis just like degrees of PTSD but a psychosis is defined by loss of touch with reality is it well it is that's a that's a feature of a psychosis but it doesn't have to be a total loss of touch with reality so for example examp with Mr McDow he was describing paranoia um believing for example that there there might actually be a police task force devoted to surveilling and catching him he he chuckled when he said that because he recognized it wasn't realistic and paranoia is something that can be caused by the use of and it's also a symptom of PTSD not typically PTSD um includes hypervigilance as a symptom but hypervigilance and paranoia are not the same thing both involve watching out for something that you think is there that may not be there they can the differen is in whether the threat is actually based in some kind of actual danger so for example a person who drives Humvees in Iraq and has to worry about IEDs is going to be understandably Vigilant when they're driving driving on a highway in the US and watching for potholes paranoia is going to be more bizarre it's going to be more extreme it's going to be along the nature of what a person with schizophrenia would feel where they don't trust their family they don't trust anyone you have you mentioned um troops in contact and um ktic activity those are not requirements it's not required that you experience those things in order to get PTSD that's correct and so in Mr McD's case the experiences that he had in both the Marines and Triple Canopy were sufficient in your opinion to generate or cause PTSD in him that's accurate and you're also familiar with the fact that other members of the jump platoon suffer from PTSD I know that from their um depositions and their testimony yes you would agree that the the work of the jump platoon was highly stressful and very dangerous stressful and dangerous for sure and Mr mcdow's role in the jump platoon was perhaps even more stressful than others in as much as he was next to the colonel all the time and was responsible for uh air support and radio I I don't actually have an opinion about whether that made it more stressful but certainly I agree that that was a stressful job if other members of the jump Plato gave their opinion that it was more stressful then you defer to them on that issue I'd be inclined to when you saw Mr McDow um for your evaluation he told you that he still suffers from nightmares yes he did uh but they're less um they're decreased given his living situation his his um particular situation being incarcerated PTSD symptoms in general were described as reduced but present and he's also on medication yes um in the nightmares he described to you concern Omar Vasquez the soldier who's having he described nightmares about uh Mr Vasquez um he also described nightmares about seeing Deputy Moyers sitting near him and he never told you that these nightmares had ever completely gone away has he no he didn't you are not a medical doctor or you're a psychologist right I'm a psychologist correct and you're not board certified in Psychology I'm not for certified in addiction medicine no your U your private psychology practice at this time you said you do deal with pts I do and you you counsel couples on couples th occasionally not regularly and am I right that much of your work is done remotely all of the therapy that I conduct currently is remotely that's onal where you communicate via computer with people who may yes my therapy is Tella Health via a a virtual platform that's been created for that purpose so that there's greater privacy and confidentiality I want to just ask about some things in your report your report mentions a Timothy Smith and a Mike Smith is that a mistake are they actually the Joneses that's a page eight page eight just one second please it's in the second line of the second paragraph I see it um it refers to Mike Smith who I thought was the um stepfather of Mr McDow yes sir and Timothy Smith um I thought was his younger half brother are you are you aware that that's an error um I as I sit here now I'm not aware that's an error certainly possible there are a couple of typos and errors in this report you you mentioned that you have been listening in or or I don't do listen into the tablet mess messages or do you read them the ones that Mr McDow has been sending to and from his family I I was given transcripts of those and asked to read those so I haven't listened I think they're text messages basically I have watched about 15 video visit files which was audio and video and and Mr McDow didn't know that you were doing that did uh I assume not um and you haven't caught him in any lies or anything on the tablet messages to be honest Mr chipperfield I I reviewed tablet messages transcripts sent once a month ever since um summer of 2022 I don't remember if I ever observed any particular inconsistencies um I I'm comfortable saying though I feel like Mr McDow has been um straightforward with family at least based on what I read I think there were some good relationships there and you have part of what you saw was amicable communication between him and his wife shaa very much and and a lot of it focused on co-parenting of their Nathan yes concerns about how Nathan was doing how he was handling this situation um M Mr McDowell wanted more contact with Nathan frequently and Nathan had uh struggled with the app trying to get that to work um so but there was a lot of a lot of concern wanting to be supportive of his son I wanted to ask you about comments in the report about Haley wheeler um is it true that Mr McDow told you that Haley wheeler got pregnant he thought it was his child he actually delivered the child at the home um and realized the child was that's correct couldn't have been because of the race of child that's correct and that was a crushing blow to him that's how he's described it to several different people me included and your report at page 11 says that Mr mcdal he he told you and and your records show that he's never applied or been awarded disability benefits including from the VA or Social Security that's correct which suggests he never tried to take advantage of this PTSD that has been diagnosed well he never applied for benefits because he was concerned that his right to bear a firearm would be taken away um which is a very common reason that people don't apply for benefits but he could have applied and likely would have gotten benefits based on your diagnosis of his he definitely could have applied um I don't want to sound too cynical but even having legit PTSD doesn't mean that the VA is going to see it that way and award you benefits he could have well been denied especially with symptoms that were uh reportedly associated with minimal distress so you can get for example the VA is a graded system of disability you could be awarded service connection for PTSD but at 0% meaning they're saying yes we agree you've had this but it's not disabling you there there are lots of people who apply for disability benefits with the VA who's who don't get them that's true and they may apply even when they cannot show a diagnosis for any mental illness that's true too because they get money absolutely and healthc care benefits um at page 12 paragraph 26 of your report down at the bottom um he said that when he served as Colonel Paul Nan's personal radio operator His Radio operator colon was sker yes that's what it says and is that an error didn't didn't the name sker apply to Triple Canopy service and not the Marine Service I honestly don't remember that as I sit here today if that was an if that was a mistake that's my first time catching that um also wanted to ask about page 13 at the bottom he said his primary duty state in the middle of paragraph 30 his primary Duty station forward operating base C Su is in isaria Iraq that wasn't his primary operating B was it that's what I had written down during our interview he was stationed at fob Delta outside of elcut I know that he was in both places um my recall um when I wrote the report was that that was in escandia was that that was in um Basu let me let me see if I can jog your memory isn't it true that what Mr McDow told you was that when he flew in he was carried by helicopter to a temporary place at Calo where the helicopter itself actually received fire and when he landed in Calo they received fire like continuously for three or four days and then he left and went to alut where F Delta was that could very well be then that I mixed those two up I knew that he was stationed at one place for an interim period per of time early in that tour but then went to the other place where he spent the bulk of that triple canopy service very possible i' confuse those two and things that happened at Calo no witness we've you've ever located or you know about knows what he experienced at calou we haven't found anybody to corroborate what he said about that I take your word for that are you aware of any I I'm not and he described to you um an incident where he was in a vehicle um going back to the airport where the vehicle was hit by IED and he was stranded on the side of the road with other people who other people who were in that vehicle I do remember that incident and the IED was misdirected or misplaced and it didn't kill anybody it just disabled the vehicle so they had to wait for support I remember that yes that actually was one of the other events that I considered to be an index trauma and you have no idea who was in that vehicle with him no I believe he said there were eight Marines um but I don't remember names it it wasn't relevant to me to ask about that and so you didn't ask him if he could give you names then no I I I was I was getting self-report about these incidents that had been mentioned by other people and specifically with that event what I wanted to clarify was that this did not involve being encircled by a hostile crowd or getting attacked in any way by people after the vehicle had become disabled the vehicle was dis disabled and they hit out there were civilians around but they waited until the um they were picked up at page 16 Mr McDow reported to you a feeling of survivors guilt did he not yes he did feeling guilty about not being able to protect those under his command who later committed suici yes he did that somehow he had failed them yes that was definitely what he conveyed and you you believe that was genuine I do in fact the entire time you were with him you did not believe that Mr McDow was feigning symptoms or Bel lingering or faking he did not present that way when you spoke with Mr McDow he expressed remorse about all this didn't he yes he did and his overall emotional presentation was consistent with someone who is trying hard to suppress distressing feelings but is not always successful at that's correct that's what I said you've also been made aware that there have been no reported incidents of aggressive violent or disinhibited behavior at the jail while he's been sitting in the jail that's correct back to the nightmares for a minute if you look at page 30 he reported to you at your paragraph 69 he reported to you frequent nightmares didn't he he did frequent but less intense um at page 33 you mentioned and I think at one other place that I don't have a page number for you mentioned that a police dog was killed do you realize now the dog was not killed yes that was a mistake and there's actually three points in this report where I mention the police dog being killed I actually believed that to be the case up until um well for several months up until the time that I wrote this report I just hadn't been given any kind of information that suggested the dog had survived mentioned that the medical records the VA medical records were very important to you but you know from reviewing Dr mat's report and Dr Hall's report that they also review the VA Med yes am I right that teenage experimentation with alcohol and drugs drugs doesn't mean that that teenager is one day going to be a drug ad certainly since you've read the medical record you know that at one point um he was treated for an overdose and was placed into the Mental Health Resource Center a mental health treatment facility in that's correct and he explained that that was a suicide attempt in effect yes he did taking meth to avoid nightmares taking meth so that you would not sleep and thereby avoid nightmares that would be self-medication wouldn't it that that's definitely a form of self-medication and he told you that why he started taking meth well I don't know that he said that was why he started taking meth I know that that was an effect of methamphetamine for him he didn't say that that was why he did it you may redirect yes Dr M um you had talked a little bit about a paranoia in the days leading up to this incident because of methamphetamine use correct that's correct correct people were out to get him a task force was out to get him or something of that nature right did this defendant ever report to you that he believe the deputy moers do that to get him no only to pull him over and potentially arrest him this defendant reported to you that he first took methampetamine the night of Co when he was INTC correct that's correct it was the night that the covid pandemic compelled the shutdown of drug testing and Drug monitoring services that were part of his this program and by all reports during that time after Matrix prior to this relapse or the first time he took me out inamine uh this defendant was doing actually really well in veterans trat cour from all reports yes Dr M do you have any doubt that during this defendant's military service and his contract Service with tri Cy that he experienced traumatic events no I'm certain that he experienced traumatic events do you have any doubt that since his return from Iraq up until today he suffers from symptoms of post-traumatic stress I believe he experiences symptoms I can't say um with certainty how severe or present some of those symptoms have been across the years since then because I think you already described they can wax and Wayan depending on circumstances they can wax and Wayne and they can be obscured by other life events for example um he said he was living in a very acute High threat environment and the days and the weeks prior to this where he was selling drugs he'd been robbed um and so he was living in a situation that would potentially be retraumatization but despite the fact that he had trauma and that at times he was experiencing symptoms of PTSD that you diagnosed him with was PTSD related to why he shot w i don't believe so what was the reasons behind it well as I said previously I I think it's it was stated very clearly on multiple occasions that he did not want to go back to jail um he did not want to be arrested and um at one point um said he was thinking I think he used the word selfishly he was thinking selfishly of himself that he just was not going to go back all right witness May step down and you were excused thank you sir uh St have any other rebuttal evidence or testimony the state is rested all right ladies and gentlemen we're now at the conclusion on today's session I need to talk to you a little bit about some things before I send you on your way uh a couple things you can expect I'm going to talk to you about and some that you might not so first of all let's talk about the schedule uh we're going to start tomorrow same time uh you guys have been fantastic about being here at 8:15 and ready to come in at 8:30 and I want to do that again because we're going to start tomorrow at 8:30 with closing argument and they should take you I it's you they'll take a couple hours all right um it should take us up closer to the noon hour then after that uh after closing arguments are are given I will instruct you on the WW that's what we're going to do this afternoon we're going to finalize the instructions and the verdict form and then so I will instruct you on the law and go over the verdict form with you so you have an understanding of what law you are to apply and the the verdict form you are to use in rendering your verdict now after I I do that I instruct you on the law uh I'm not going to let you go to lunch it's not because I don't want to um but we want to get you deliberating as soon as possible and the the reason why is is that in a capital case I'm required by law if the um deliberations go late into the night I can't let you go home I have to sequester jurors in a capital case so we want the idea is to give you as much time to see if you can reach a verdict um on you know tomorrow there is no set time that you have to deliberate okay and you you deliberate till you fully discussed the issues you have to decide and that can take how jury feels like it needs to to take and to to reach a decision so you there is a that possibility that you get late at night and I'm not going to keep you guys here at 10 11 o'clock that's just not not good for so we want to get you we want to get you deliberating as soon as possible so we're going to we're going to have we're going to order in lunch for you the the the Bale will take care of that uh so you know once once I instruct you you'll go back into into the jury deliberation room give us your orders and then you'll start your deliberations and then um obviously I can tell you a little more about how the deliberations will go and if you need to take breaks and things like that and questions we'll get into that tomorrow the other thing you need to do and this is again because because we want to prepare for all contingencies you need to bring and change of clothes all right right leave it in your car okay that doesn't mean you have to you use it or we in we in you expect you to use it but it's there all right and so just and bring what you might need for an overnight U because if if that if we have to do that then you'll be taken to a hotel and undisclosed location and um you know given a hotel room and you so you can get a good night's sleep but again we prepare for all encies um so those are some of the things you might not have known and you need to know to prepare for tomorrow now the things you probably expect me to talk to you about we're at the end of the evidence however it's still not appropriate for you to talk about this case with anyone including among yourselves you've heard all the evidence but the time for you to share your opinions with your fellow jurors will be tomorrow after closing arguments and my instructions on the law during deliberations it's going to be natural again for people to ask you about the case uh please tell them you're still under orders from me not to talk about it absolutely continue to avoid any and all media accounts of this case uh television radio newspaper internet uh because that's that is again improper and and for the reasons I have stated multiple times so please continue to do that there's you know one more one more evening of of of of this at least um where you need to avoid any you seeing anything or talking about this case with anyone please avoid conducting any research or investigation on your own as well um that that would be improper and particularly going on the internet doing searches things of that nature you guys have been uh you know fantastic you've done everything I've asked up to this point I don't expect it to be any different tomorrow or or tonight overnight but is my job to remind you of these things so with that um leave your notes Here uh we'll collect them one more time uh and again we'll see you all tomorrow and thank you again for for uh your patience and your attention through through the entire presentation of evidence from from both sides the afternoon is yours thank you all Jury has exited the courtroom everybody have a seat just for a moment or you can stand if you want if you've been sitting for a while certainly not going to offend me um I think what we'll do is come back here at two start with the the actual official charge conference you if you can send over you being the state if you made the adjustments talked about yesterday uh you can send them over to to me electronically uh I'd appreciate it ahead of the 2:00 schedule there were really only a couple of things that we had to deal with and 'll we'll talk about them two o'clock is there anything we we need to discuss before we break the big thing I'm still trying to condense in some fashionat took a long time to put those together I'm sure it did I I understand and we do your best you can all right and again I'm not opposed to the overall request of what you're asking it's just the details in there were a lot of it is is variations of the of the same item of mitigation and you know talking about PTSD after triple canopy and after the Marines and this and that I don't know that you need four entries to talk about what is essentially what you would like them to consider which is the defendants history of PTSD so um that's kind of an example of what I'm talking about um and we we T we discussed it yesterday I know you've had a lot of lot of things to do since then you are the only one here with with Council from the state so I'm sort of reiterating that for those that might be assisting you in trying to to do that all right okay come back here at two and uh everybody stand down till then take a break and catch your breath being res appr how are you good app I'm sorry oh no but you have fun with that e e e e e e e e e e e for

Channel: First Coast News

Views: 15,552

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Id: T78E3oVfFbI

Length: 252min 59sec (15179 seconds)

Published: Wed Apr 24 2024