Lia Thomas’ Former Teammate BREAKS Her Silence

welcome back to Crane and Company I'm David Cohn got Blaine crane here with me our boy Jake is uh he's probably in Paris right now I think right what's he up to you think um you know probably yelling at people yeah you know a little Beret yeah uh he's probably in an argument about World War II 100 but we are very honored to be joined by a special guest today and that is former division one athlete and you Penn swimmer Miss Paula Scanlon how are you Paula I'm great thanks for having me today guys well thank you for joining us now like I said you swam for the University of Pennsylvania I was hoping you could just sort of tell us about your life and how you came to be a division one athlete yeah so growing up um I struggled a lot in school um I'm dyslexic and my parents thought a good outlet for me was to find a sport and coincidentally our town right around the time my dad was telling me I needed to do this our town had just finished building an Olympic-sized pool at our YMCA um so obviously it made sense to just do swimming I had done swimming lessons when I was younger and I just did it for a few years but it was really when my brother went to college and he was out of the house and I really felt like I had to make my own that I started taking swimming really seriously so when I was in this was when I was in sixth grade so I didn't miss a single practice that entire month two hours a day every single practice and I really at that point started really swimming really improving I was moving up in the lane moving up on my team and it was at that point where I thought division one swimming was totally gonna be an option for me so that you know after that I really dedicated myself to doing that and then obviously I ended up at the University of Pennsylvania again my family has been very academically focused um so my mom really wanted me to go to you know a top school so the ivy league is that perfect cross section between a really high education and also also division one so that's kind of how I ended up at the University of Pennsylvania you know we don't interview a lot of Ivy League swimmers so one of the unique situations for you is you know you were teammates with Leah Thomas formerly will Thomas um you know this is sort of captivated the country by storm here as having a male not only be able to compete in women's sports but to win the Championships can you sort of take us up to your first interactions you know how the origin story for how will Thomas who was swimming on the men's team at the University of Pennsylvania you know became Leah Thomas and how you were introduced to having a male teammate yeah so in the fall of 2019 my sophomore year of uh College the freshman year none of this was a thing at the University of Pennsylvania um we had a team meeting and the men's team had their team meeting first and then the women's team followed which is very rare because we're a combined program we do most things with the men's team um so that was already strange anyway so the men team went and then the women's team was then met with this meeting where this team this teammate will Thomas at the time again not announced to be Leah told us that they would be transitioning to the men's uh from Men's team to the women's team um and everybody said okay and then the meeting ended it was very brief and we went on with swimming we've had practice that day like normal um so then it was that season that will Thomas again hadn't announced the name change to Leah was a member of the men's team changing the men's locker room but was going to be working to transition to the women's team so it was this weird one in between season um and then covet hit shortly after that so that kind of like put a break on like what was going to happen and actually uh Leah was supposed to graduate in 2021 uh and then took a gap year so that Leah could come back as a senior in the fall of 2021 instead of having been graduated so that was that's how we found out about it and then you know like the season started and we all didn't really know what to expect again most people weren't swimming their best times because we lost an entire year of Athletics so the level that Leo was going to be swimming at was very unknown because again each kid kind of went off and did their own thing some people didn't swim at all in the season off so it was really we didn't know like if Leo was going to win a National Championship or if Leo was going to be the same exact speed that Leah once was you know so that was kind of how that all went down there yeah you know what was kind of the reaction you know with your teammates when you found out that will will be transitioning to the women's team we'll be with y'all including the locker room and including swimming honestly most people didn't really talk about it it was very much just like oh wow this great thing is happening let's all be supportive with teammates support each other that was like a big message everyone was saying teammates support each other and I immediately had this like weird feeling where I said oh like is that gonna is this right like is there a debate about this is this definitely happening is there any way that this won't happen like what are the rules like I knew nothing about the rules of you know what levels your testosterone have to be or whatever those protocols the NCAA does actually have I knew nothing about this because at that point in my life I never thought this would be a possibility but for me personally I immediately just felt unsure and uncertain obviously leaning towards I don't think that this is fair and I didn't really share that sentiment with too many of my teammates because it seemed like everybody was oh okay cool like that's the problem for a year from now or they were really supportive but I did immediately voice this happening to my friends outside of the team I remember I went to hang out with my friends after practice and that was all I was talking about and I was like like oh this is going to be happening everyone's like okay like there's no proof of that like there's no way like it just was this crazy thing that nobody thought was going to be real so that was kind of yeah and that and that happened for about two years it wasn't until two years later that it actually became a reality so it was like the slow-moving train wreck in my eyes I know Blaine calls me old a lot but I feel like I didn't graduate from college that long ago I was a division one football player up to 2010 and the fact you know you're saying the the reaction when I was in college or at least with my peers what it would have been appalling to think that a male could not only just compete on the team but to come into the locker room so you know what was your comfort level I know you were sort of gauging your teammates interest and you know you're all talking with each other but at some point you had to feel uncomfortable or was that not the case no I definitely did only didn't actually they did tell us originally that that there was there was a possibility that Leah might be using using alternative locker room or an alternative bathroom it was never really like a formal discussion it was more like one girl would go to the coach and say I felt this way about it and then our coach would say oh what about this solution but it was never like a team organized meeting so that was that situation but in that one season that again Leah had announced I'm going to be transitioning but was still technically on the men's team during our first meet they had like Leah come into the locker room to you know just be part of the women's teams this is like this Tradition at our first homey our male coach will come into the locker room as well and so one of the girls was like bringing Leah in who said oh guys like is everybody decent is everybody decent you know saying that and it was that's the obvious thing to say right like this person again confusing but at the time had it announced Leah so this person is still will and I was like oh okay like there's some respect there and then it was like we didn't get that same warning once that season actually started it was that okay now that it's been two years it's now okay so it's just super confusing that it went from oh is everybody decent just giving you the warning to this is now every single day of your season for a full year it's amazing being in the locker room was one place where like you're supposed to be not super decent you know it's a place you should feel comfortable enough to not be decent you know it's wrong when you're walking in there asking hey if you're decent so you're not showing something to certain somebody not only that but just the college campuses writ large these days I thought the overarching narrative now was to create safe spaces right like like we need to have safe spaces on college campuses and places of inclusion so my biggest question is why should uh the feelings of Leah Thomas Trump your feelings right when you're in the locker room if you want to have your own safe space that's one of the things that still confuses me yeah I think it was more that that it was just decided basically like this person is going to be fully part of the team so it's every privilege that every member of the team has also needs to be awarded to this person which I couldn't disagree or agree with that but that does actually make sense right so if we're gonna if we're gonna say no matter what happens aside from anyone's opinions this person has to be on the team this person is on the team this person is a member of the women's team it makes sense that you wouldn't want to exclude them like on on the basis of just you know like following the rules and being on a team like you can't have one team member changing outside the locker room like the law why this line existed in the first place of course of course right in a women's team but it does like that part is consistent I guess right I'm gonna I'm gonna say that like if you're gonna do it you're gonna do it all the way so that that makes sense now when this happened what what type of pressure you know were you facing from pin in general even if you wanted to voice out against against this you know what did they do to try to keep you silent so at the beginning actually it was a very opened conversation like I talked to my coaches about it I talked to my other teammates about it I talked to many people one-on-one about it it was an open conversation and you know um I'm actually really close family friends with Donna De Verona she's an Olympic swimmer from back in the day um and so I went home for Thanksgiving and she was it was just when the media was just starting to pick up that this was happening and Donna was like you have to use your voice you have to speak up against what you know is right and what you know was wrong and I was like oh okay of course I will so I just continue to speak out about it and it was really when these media stories started picking up traction and after that meet in Akron Ohio when I think I don't remember the exact margins but Leo won an event by a very noticeable amount and that's really when the media really started to pick it up and it was pretty much right after that meet they brought in administrators from the University there was this panel I would I would say it was a person from Alia he's on to the ahead of the athletic department it was someone from the LGBT Center and it was someone from Psychological Services and they sat that kind of like sat us down and had a panel essentially saying this is like getting out of control Leah is part of this team Leah will be swimming no matter what happens and you guys need to like no one should talk to the media like obviously we can't control like they didn't say they could control what we did but they said you know the media was not your friend if you speak to them you will end up regretting it um so it was after that message and that really worked like I was scared I went home that night and I was like I've been talking to people about this do I need to go shut up that's a threat they basically threaten you you will regret it that was that's a threat they said that I mean and I like was texting my brother in a frenzy on the way home and I was like what do I do I've been openly voicing my opinions to people like am I going to get kicked off this team and so at this point it it was just it was getting crazy and nobody would talk about it anymore and everybody started like turning their backs and it was at this point that really like the people who were open to it started changing their minds there were people girls I talked to about this that agreed it was wrong and then suddenly their opinions was were changed by this experience I know I sat there and I was I was like what am I supposed to do like I still know in my heart that this is wrong but there was nothing I could do and it I actually it was so stressful for me that I actually ended up literally waking up the next morning with 102 degree fever like I got physically sick from this experience because it was I just didn't even know who I could trust anymore who I could talk to about it well you know you kind of bring up your brother that makes me think you know what did your parents think about this whole situation because I know you had you had to go voice your opinion to them yeah I mean obviously I come from a really close-knit family my parents um really strong on Family Values like our rule is we have dinner together every single night and I know that's a very rare thing um in families but we're very very close-knit um especially with my grandparents and all those people so they're a huge support system for me um and I was very stressed out and I actually called my mom and dad to let them know I was you know oh my gosh I'm going to be found out by all of this and I had already had some teammates at this point kind of texting me saying like you need to stop like voicing your opinions on this and I was I had done some Anonymous interviews um with news outlets and my teammates had found out about that and they had said you know you can't speak for the team like you can voice your own transphobic beliefs but don't speak for all of us and again I would never speak for my teammates like they can have their own opinion I've never once spoken out from what other people can think but it was at that point they really had started like sending me messages that were very hurtful your own teammates yes and I called my mom and my mom called Donna De Verona who's close friends with Martina Navratilova okay Martina called me on the phone I was sitting there sobbing in my room you know saying oh my gosh my own teammates hate me and Martina called me and was like do not listen to them this fight is worth fighting for like you keep doing what you're doing like you will win out in the end and it was just like the coolest thing like this tennis Legend called me on the phone and I was at that point like I mean I still felt bad about it but it was like okay I know this is so much bigger than just how I'm feeling that's amazing and not just a tennis Legend a long-standing member of the LGBT community and Martina navratilo yeah and bringing that up that's another thing that very confusing confuses this like this is very confusing to me because I understand how it's like one Community or whatever but I think that lesbians and gays have very different interests than transgenders right I don't understand how they've magically been looped into this one group that has to have all the same opinions on all everything certainly and that's how we get a term like Turf you know this trans exclusionary radical feminist and the spicier you can make it you know the the better it is you know you're talking about being confused I get confused when you start talking about like having to see psychological counsel or whatever whatever it was you were talking about because if if you know we were to say oh here is a man who wants to identify as a woman you need to go see seek psychological counsel like we would all be fired for that right but if you are a woman and you say well I would kind of like to just compete on the women's team that just has women now you have to like get get help like that's why I don't understand yeah and actually so I actually not through the university but at this point I was like Mom I need to see a therapist like I'm not well because I was you know I was so stressed out I didn't know who to trust I didn't know what to believe so I go to this therapist and like the first session I don't even really bring it up because I'm I'm so scared that this person who has like confidentiality agreement is going to out me as a transphobe to everybody in my life and they legally can't even do that so it was so crazy to me that I was I was so scared and so brainwashed by this experience that I was like I can't even talk to my own therapist wow that feeling of being backed in a corner you know and not being able to trust the people who are closest to you especially your own teammates well that gets back to the institution question because there's so much pressure right now especially if you're a college kid and you're trying to enter the workforce and it's not just I mean we talked about you pin but the ivy league is at play here the NCAA is at play here I mean how how were what was your communication like with all of these different institutions and were you fearful that you might not get a job in the corporate world yeah I mean ultimately that's the decision I made I said I'm not going to speak out about this with my name because I valued having a job after college again my parents being like they're you know my mother is Asian and you know Asian parents like their kid needs to have a job right they need to tell their friends that their their kid is not sitting on their couch after graduation like that was the top priority at this point again I'm a senior I was 21 22 years old and this all happened that was my priority and so ultimately that is what I chose over speaking out about this um now I do kind of maybe regret that a little bit but now that I've been working in a normal job for a while I know that this is so much more important than just having a job that I sit at a desk at and they pay me you know so I was gonna ask so you were in the what is a woman document yes kind of tell me a little bit about that experience you you did remain anonymous but um you have come out now so tell me how was it in uh how was it being in that seeing yourself and that even when you're recovered and how does everything feel now that you've come out and you've told your peace I wanted to maybe do it with my actual face like it was definitely a debate we had and ultimately my parents had just kind of said like you know you can always reveal yourself later and that's what we agreed upon that I would eventually come out like I am now when it was time um so obviously we had that discussion I filmed it during my spring break actually um so it was very weird because swimming had actually just finished my swimming career about a week before the documentation was very very fresh like I had literally just retired from swimming full-time like I've never competed again since then um but yeah so got to meet Matt and everyone and everyone was very respectful it was really really awesome experience obviously I do kind of wish I could have like actually been in it like truly like myself um but we had a great conversation and I know that like only you only snippet of it has really shown again because nobody wants to hear like a weird scrambled voice and like a black screen for very long so it makes sense but we did talk about a lot of the things that happened and you know it was really really awesome experience so that documentary is leaving a mark yeah you know I mean not only on this topic but just around the world really internationally that question is being asked by politicians now what is a woman and because there are certain people who can't answer that question that to me says there is a bigger agenda at play of course clearly know what a woman is yeah and also uh the fact that these uh the Supreme Court Justices they're asking this question too they have to rule on Title IX shouldn't you know what a woman is if you have to rule on Title IX like isn't that a shouldn't that be a requirement to know whether or not I agree with what your aunt is you should at least have an answer in mind right like one more clarification on your teammates um a swimming team at the University level is comprised of how many 30 to 40 teammates something like yeah yeah our exact role I think about 35 girls and then about the same number so you were saying you were getting text messages from some of your teammates I mean did did anyone agree did anyone else on your team have a problem with a guy swimming on the team or were you the lone voice there was one other girl who was talking to the media anonymously um and she was someone I talked to the entire time but again it was kind of scary because it was still this apprehensive of can I even trust her but the two of us were very close and so a close friend of mine and we talked about this issue for months and months and months and months prior to the fall of 2021 when this actually blew up and frankly she was the only person that like I thought felt equally to me that it was so wrong um so it makes sense that when it actually happened that we were the two people who were willing to speak out about it well you know our friend Riley Gaines it was a friend of this program like we talked about this with her it's it's disappointing that we even have to have a fight to try and save women's sports and especially when you have three individuals like us who would have historically been defending a lot of people from discrimination now being deemed bigots because we don't think biological men should compete in women's sports it's it's just it's amazing that we're even sitting here talking about today I bet it's an actual conversation and that kind of gets me to the question you know if you were if someone else was in their shoes in your shoes right now you know that went through what you you went through and stuck in that situation are too scared to come out and say anything you know what advice would you give them because obviously like from a mental standpoint it has to be tough every day getting up in the morning so what advice would you give them to help them get through it I think you need to understand that this is so much more important than just my experience and I think obviously it's human nature to be self-interested right everyone has their own self-interest and I think for me I was like oh I want this job after college or I want everyone to like me or I want this or I want that but that's not who I'm fighting for I'm not swimming anymore I actually don't even really care about what happens in the swimming world because I'm you know I'm not really part of it that that's not why I've staking this game but it's really about the other people that you're gonna be defending right it's the it's the younger girls so this is starting to become a bigger deal in high school right so let's just say at the high school level there's these introduction of these you know trans trans athletes or whatever and I'm thinking about myself as a 16 year old a 15 year old I would have been discouraged and then I maybe wouldn't have even gotten to the G1 level because I would have said why am I even doing this so that's who we need to fight for those those younger girls that it's not seen yet or you don't know what's going to happen of that or if they'll even make it to the E1 level and that's that's who this is about this is not about me it's not about Riley I just want to make that like very clear that we have to fight for them not and they don't have a voice because this hasn't happened to them yet right like they don't have a platform to speak on this yet because of course not I want to make sure that you know first of all you're brave as hell for sitting in that chair yes you are coming out and say this and now one thing I promise you your voice will be heard because it is for the little girls out there right who want to play sports I have a young daughter now you know I'd love for my daughter to play sports if she wants to you know free from having men compete in sports so you are very brave and we know that because you know people attack us for speaking about this issue but we're not going to stop you know we would encourage you not to either we really appreciate you coming on and I don't just want you to be known as one of Leah Thomas's teammates or something yeah more than that and you're a big sports fan too your Boston Red Sox fan right yes well my call to fame is well actually my my dad grew up in Rhode Island so we've always kind of been New England based um but my my brother really like we're from like the New York City metropolitan area and he said I want to root for the first team that can beat the Yankees the Yankees fans he didn't like that at all yes that one's stung deep anyway so the Red Sox actually happened to beat the Yankees in that next series that they played and from then we were a huge Red Sox fan and I actually caught a David Ortiz ball when I was eight years old I'm so jealous we did actually get it signed fun fact really by David Ortiz by David Ortiz it's signed it's sitting in my brother's room at my parents house um really funny because there's a lot of Japanese players on the team and my mom grew up in Japan and so funny enough one of her friends from her Japanese Club in college is close friends with was close friends with Matsuzaka the pictures translator for the Red Sox and so they gave him the ball and then he got it signed from David Ortiz and it's not like authenticated but like it's definitely his signature and we know that it was so it's like I can't sell we can't sell it for money not that we would want to you can send it to our set yeah everything right here is all finished yeah let me just go steal that from my brother's room hockey fan as well yes you're in a little mix-up though right a little bit fan yeah my boyfriend yeah so I did I was a little bit upset about that Panther um but they're looking really good right now like I think they might sweep look I'm not trying to teach my mom but some guy on this set picked the Panthers to win the Stanley Cup Boston might win it next year though yeah I know that's the waistline so yeah it's the President's Cup it's the curse yeah First The Curse of the president we'll see but thank you so much for joining us thank you so much for having me and thank you all for watching we really appreciate it uh please like And subscribe to our Channel and share it with all your friends [Music] [Applause]

Channel: Crain & Company

Views: 354,763

Keywords: Daily Wire, Sports, News, Media, Politics, lgbtq, lia thomas, what is a woman, lia thomas teammate speaks out, pride, matt Walsh, matt Walsh documentary, upenn swimmer, paula scanlan, paula scanlan interview, riley gaines

Id: D3Yr3j5iGTc

Length: 24min 0sec (1440 seconds)

Published: Wed Jun 07 2023