Let's Talk About: Cult Recovery after Gwen Shamblin w/ Megan Cox | Episode 82

well hello there women beings and welcome to another episode of the woman being podcast we are so excited to be here with you today we are going to be talking about Colts about Gwen shamblin and a bunch of crazy so you're gonna want to buckle up because we're just gonna Dive Right In [Music] this is woman being where we explore thoughts and opinions and have the freedom to change our minds without expectation or judgment we will hold a safe space and support each other as we navigate together in the form of feminine [Music] we are so excited to be here today and to be talking with the one and only Megan Cox welcome Megan thank you for having me absolutely it is such an honor such a treat literally dream of a dream um so one beings if you don't know Megan Cox is a cult Survivor she is the founder of the Beyond Zion foundation and she was also featured in the HBO docu-series the way down which we reviewed both part one and part two so if you're interested make sure to check those out literally Megan we watched part two of your docu-series and you mentioned in there that you had started a foundation to help cult survivors that are in recovery it flashed up on the screen and I was like there's an email I've just gotta find this person likes Navy like by some random Stroke of Luck this person will be like yes I'll come talk to you on the back yes because we wanted to know more after we finished the series absolutely and you were so kind you were like yeah let's let's meet up let's do it and here we are here we are two coveted cases later after many delays in recording yeah we've made it yeah so part two of the way down came out this spring and there's a lot that happened in between then and now so how did you react to the death of Gwen shamblin and other leaders how did that hit you because you were involved in the remnant Fellowship I don't know what to call it Ministry movement Church um and so how how was that for you for me initially disbelief because like no way right right how could that happen like after all this time um but when I got the initial contact like saying look what just happened and I was like not so I Googled it I never take things at face value and it was all over the news and it was just like early on like so there was barely anything known other than the plane crashed but you could surmise that it wasn't good and I I I think I might have stated this before but I did get emotional um not for Gwen uh but Jonathan and Jessica Walters you know I knew I knew David Martin and his wife Jennifer and I knew Brandon Hannah but the the first thought through mine was you know I got emotional for them because they they were out of all the people I liked I liked them a lot you know they seemed very genuine to me I even thought Brandon Hannah seemed genuine to me now that's just my perception and opinion I know other people from they have left Remnant feel differently but that's okay but um you know we stayed a lot of David and Jennifer Martin's house in the beginning too before we moved to Nashville so like I had interactions with all these families and that's a lot of loss at once um and it was just very profound and I guess later on too just processing like that did and I've said it's Poetic Justice like that like and my mom keeps telling me no but I could have swore like she had a houseboat on Percy Priest Lake because I got invited to it once it's a special privilege you know I was showing that I was being um uh working on all my sin you know working on being pure and so I got invited onto the boat with my then infant son who's now a teenager and it was on Percy Priest Lake so her plane crashed into Percy Priest like that's that's how she went down you know her the arrogance took her down and I I wanted at least to one day be able to confront her and go what what do you have to say for yourself like how do you justify this you know especially well I can't now but I didn't during that deposition in the first half like hearing her say like Well define many as far as detractors to her organization like just that attitude you know that flagrant disregard for how she affects people's lives because she has this many people saying that she hasn't been negative towards him it just made me really angry um but she answered for it but yeah it's sort of like a poetic justice but also like really tragic yeah 100 like any loss of life is super tragic uh for sure and I don't you know and I I agree with Phil Williams and you know if if someone terrible died then like let's not be flowery about it right um you know I'm sure she had her good her good attributes but mainly she's done a lot of damage to a lot of people yeah and I so I I think that the way she went was perfect you know she went totally off the rails towards the end you could tell outside looking in and um you know everything she held dear just was gone you know and everyone else has left to pick up the pieces which is nothing new when you interact with Gwen but right you know right to go down into the lake where you think it's a special privilege to bring people on your houseboat you know yeah absolutely I mean it is I mean we just keep saying it it is quite a Poetic Justice um and I imagine there's like a lot of complicated feelings and emotions that go along with that um so what was your take on the documentary series as a whole like I'm sure you being featured in it slash also surviving this horrible movement um that probably like you probably have some opinions so I'd like to know them yes thank you for asking um I do and I don't want to speak um I don't want anything of what I'm saying to be perceived as ill speaking ill but you know there was a lot left to be desired and I think they knew that I mean they had been working on it by the time they got to me like three years wow a lot of people don't even know I was in the first three episodes I'm like no no I was there I was used uh that first interview I sat for at least three hours and just spilled out everything from start to finish and they used that interview for just sound bites for the first three episodes and again I wasn't the only one I know that and they had a story to tell and they had to try to fit all of that in as much as they could um I get that um but it was there's so much more to my story so much more to all of our stories than just quick sound bites you know yeah um and even in the second half when they showed clips of me compared to my second to first interview like you can see a clear difference I was terrified like I couldn't sit still the first time um I was afraid to speak I was so quiet she had to tell me a million times to speak up and the second time I was cursing up a storm left and right I wish they would have actually kept my whole tie rating because they asked me what I thought about remnant's statement to the docu-series and I said are we allowed to curse because I didn't know in the beginning and I tried to you know like quote unquote behave and um I think she said yes and so I just went off and I got really angry and it's very visible the more I talked to the angrier I got because I started thinking about okay they said this they said this they said this and and then I think I don't know if it was by that time I think maybe by that time they had also started posting videos of their members saying Remnant didn't do this to me blah you know like like body shaming and you know things like that and then I think what really did me in was that all was really pissing me off but then um Elizabeth shamlin's or uh Hannah um her letter it towards it's towards the bottom of the page so if you don't keep scrolling you don't see it just that's what really that's what really got my goat um I guess it's possible you could be so obtuse and so caught up in the moment that you don't really see the bigger picture and I know it's her mother and I know a lot of people have a hard time speaking out against their parents um but I just they left out a lot and I understand they probably had to and it wasn't an easy decision but I a lot of the feedback I saw was I want to know more about the individual people it ended up being an overarching story about Natasha and her child and and which fine that's totally fine but you know I feel like the rest of us kind of got left in the dust a little bit you know and not in a negative way you know we all took great personal risk to come forward right and now now we're targets of their ire remnants ire you know so maybe that's another reason why I keep speaking up too is because people want to know so I'm going to tell yeah I mean there's so many factors that go into that when you're making something like a docu-series on what stays what goes what winds up getting cut what makes the most sort of entertaining or cohesive story to like you know at the end of the day they are trying to create entertainment you know like they're making a series for HBO um and so and if they're taking hours and hours of footage oh it's like obviously they can include all that raw unedited interview but I'm sure there's so much good stuff in there um and also I'm not sure if we told you this but you can definitely curse on our podcast and wearing preferred beautiful feel free um but I'm curious to hear from you specifically like um some of the things that uh maybe you you wish had stayed in the docu-series or some of the things that uh you you want to express that you feel like didn't get expressed uh during uh what was shown of your interview I wish that they would have included the last time I went back to Remnant with my child and what why I had to leave that wasn't included and I think that I understand they really wanted to drive a point home and I think that they did you know that Remnant is a cult and it is it is not a good thing and they're they're um motives are not good there's it becomes like it becomes worse because individual members can misconstrue the message to fit their own agenda and their own narrative and while they did tell that in certain ways I think like in how it worked in marriages they didn't really I mean and they did kind of like Jacoby when she talked they touched on like you know how she gave up things but um I kind of just wonder why why if they're gonna let those other people come forward and say like why didn't they include mine you know I but but again I can I can't bite the hand that feeds because they did put forward the Beyond Zion and like they didn't have to do that at all a lot of people didn't even know why I left they of course they were told something different they or they wouldn't they wouldn't tell people why I left they would say it's it's not for you to know or it's you know whatever and they tell people I left to run off with a boy and get married and that's not the case although it looks like it but no I fled I had to flee yeah yeah you know would you be willing to briefly give us some of that story of why you left and yeah we want to want to hold space for that here for you well that's what we're here for you know it's like hearing stories of people said we want to know you know this is like a tell-all with Megan Cox yeah I spent a lot of my life split between two households um and in my mom's household is where way down workshop and Remnant were introduced um my dad's household was a whole other bunch of mess um and so growing up food or I was always controlled like my dad and stepmom didn't like me being chubby so um they would control what I ate there was a lot of control with what I ate how I did my hair like I really wasn't free to explore um who I was I wasn't encouraged to find who I was or be creative um it was all kind of decided for me or it was just it's hard to explain like I was a very isolated child with my dad and stepmom so some could say I've probably had daddy issues in the past which I have and I just like I remember being so hungry as a kid eating out of the trash can because they just they just didn't want me to be fat like they would talk about like drinking lots of water and eating fruits and vegetables and doesn't it feel so good to be skinny and healthy and I'm like yeah I guess but I also don't want to be hungry so that's created issues for me you know like I'm still like almost 40 years old working through um being afraid to have hunger pains because I've spent all my life starving to up to a certain point you know so then when I moved in with my mom she had my youngest sister Brianna in 96 and she discovered I'm not exactly for sure how the way down workshop worked her its way into her life but it did and she started doing it we all kind of participated one way or the other and you know if Mom's doing it we're all kind of doing it she was the leader of the household and you know it made sense I didn't understand the god part but it made sense to me what she was saying and I wanted to know more because I was so I just was seeking love and acceptance and approval so bad because I didn't feel that I had that from either one of my parents I was abused as a child you know in so many different ways um including sexually by family members and they didn't believe me so I was desperate for anyone just to love me and so if this meant getting my mom's love and approval I was gonna do it and so I did and I tried my best to understand church and and having a relationship with God and applying what Gwen said we even went to some of her Desert Oasis conferences um in Nashville when in the early days one of them we met Michael shamblin he was just starting to his music then mom always wanted to move to Nashville after that point you know to be closer to guinea way down because it had made such a difference in her life you know she had lost weight um she felt she was closer to God and she even quit smoking as well so it was really the the program was really working for her and it made her happier and it just overall generally we work for the whole family like as long as we were applying it um the message and really talking about it and really trying to learn from Gwen it was working so and that's usually how it happens right like they come out with like you know something like some self-help or something that'll help improve who you are as a person and and fulfill you and make you happier because at the end of the day that's all we really want and um you know that's how they find their target audience too because that's how that's the people you can you can ensnare so time goes on I'm I'm a delinquent child I'm not gonna mince words on that one um both my parents would agree that I definitely push the limits um sneaking out uh sex drugs all of it just being crazy uh I barely graduated high school because of attendance and just lack of caring at that point and you know and all the while being told what is wrong with you like your your siblings aren't like this you know and I because I was the only one who also challenged my mom too like I wouldn't always take what she said or did like I would sometimes stand up for myself or challenge her back and you know that's not that was how I was raised like how Remnant teaches you to be I was already being raised that way and conditioned and it's my mom didn't do that on purpose that was just how she was raised and conditioned and same with my dad too I from birth to um young adult that's just how we were had to be joyful all the time negative emotions weren't tolerated your autonomy is not yours you do what I say you be the person I want you to be um you dress how I want you to dress you listen to what I want you to listen to you know um it was very frustrating I I had a lot of mental health issues that I wasn't aware of and it could be either a genetics or B because of the sexual abuse and the mental and emotional abuse I mean who knows did the chicken the egg I don't I don't know all I know was I was struggling with ADHD and depression and anxiety and being told that I'm being selfish and I'm a problem and I need to just focus more on everybody else and you know what's wrong with you and why can't you get this right or why are you like this the other kids aren't like this and you know don't you just want negative attention and I'm like no I don't I just want I just wanted to be loved and accepted for who I was I just wanted that love and support and I wanted to find out who I was in a safe space during my senior year and this was um 2002 mom had found Remnant Fellowship uh because Gwen had been doing tours she had in 1999 founded Remnant fellowship and had been doing uh what she called rebuilding the wall tours and she would she must have been like contacting um way down participants or putting it out there somehow that um she had started this new church or she found the answer or something or other I don't really know and um my mom went to the South Bend um conference I guess for lack of a better word they're rebuilding the wall and uh conference and she joined Remnant her and that's how the Marion chapter started because it wasn't just like my mom it was all these people we had gone to church with for years that had known me since I was a baby the other people in Remnant knew who I was because Mom was telling them how I was just so lost in Wayward and how she'd wish I would return to the truth and I didn't know she had found the truth at that point so so I quickly plotted my Escape because I'm like no way am I doing this this is not so um and how are you gonna switch like uh flip switches on me I'm I'm almost graduated and now you're like well this is how we're living our life now well you I I don't know if I accept that like I think we had my graduation party like June maybe and I took all the money that I gotten from that graduation and went and got an apartment with this boy I had started dating secretly and that was a disaster um so this kind of cycle went on for years 2005 I got pregnant with my oldest son Ben and um just was terrified the whole time I was pregnant because I had a really strong premonition I was gonna die giving birth to him and that scared me because I was like well I'm not in Remnant I've rejected God's message so therefore I'm going to go to hell and what does that mean for my son you know I don't want to Doom him to hell and I want to be a good mom for him and I only saw the the answer the only answer I thought there was was Remnant and you know I learned years later that this is indoctrination so yeah because I couldn't understand why I'd always end up going back because I the guilt I felt all the time because I I was turning my back on God and choosing Satan over God you know and I didn't want to be cursed I didn't want to be a bad person I mean nobody inherently wants that so went back uh was there had been in the church was there until November of 2006. uh everything hit ahead that day and um my mom had accused me of something I didn't do and I said no I I didn't do that and that made her really angry which turned into assault which then turned into um the cops showing up and um unfort with the big unfortunate part of that was we lived in a neighborhood filled with Remnant Fellowship members and um they all saw the cops at my house and you know my mom had to come home and return the phone and everything and I had to make sure I asked the cops I said can you can can I leave with my child in my car and my things can I can I leave and they're like well yeah and I said I just you know they she tried to take my phone from me you told me that was stuff she's they've told me that they can take my child away from me because I'm not obeying so that makes me an unfit mother um so you know can she sue for grandparents rights I don't know like I don't know what could happen to me you know my mom helped me get the loan from my car she could take that from me and they're like is it in your name I said yes and I'm like no so I like was so scared and I'm like they asked me if I want to press charges because that marks were left on me and I know they did take pictures but um I said no I just want to get out of here I can't stay here anymore and um I know I I feel like I remember I said I think I talked on the phone with Ted anger one of the leaders and then he's no longer with us but Marcus Francis came to the house as I was packing my things up in my car ready to go and um I was like well the only place I know is Ohio I don't know anyone down here that isn't in Remnant in Nashville he tried to stop me from leaving said I could move in with somebody else whatever and I said no absolutely not like this is not an option for me to stay anymore like I thought they were going to physically keep me from leaving I'm not I was scared I just wanted to go and um I did I drove through the night with my newly minted one-year-old baby home to Ohio uh no I mean I had no home to go to I know where to go um I just had like a very flimsy acquaintance that said well you could stay here and I ended up couch surfing for a little bit until I married my first husband that's quite a dream yeah that is quite the journey thank you for sharing um I'm curious to dive in a little bit more to your experience at Remnant and hear some about like the toxic theology that you heard from Gwen or from other leaders in that Community oh gosh where do you start so the big thing um one thing that comes to mind right away is the women being submissive to the men always no matter what um and you have you having to be submissive to any adult like I again almost 40. if I'm around anyone older than me I instantly turn into a child and I know and it's something I've been working on like okay so like Ben's my my son's oldest son's friend group like they're all the parents are older than me I'm 38 I'm the youngest out of all the parents and I used to feel really self-conscious about it but then I started telling myself like that's ridiculous like you're an adult too and you you have so much to offer too like you can it you can't do that and I've told but I've been more open with them telling them that like if I'm quiet it's because of what I've been through so like it's not that I just you know I don't know like just putting people on a pedestal in that aspect I've really worked on um so there was that another thing that comes to mind when we had our first uh Church camp um outside of Nashville um a big thunderstorm came which was very common in that area um just thunderstorms that come up out of nowhere and um it happened and we were in this Pavilion having some kind of service or gathering and Gwen said that that happened because someone was sitting in the camp so we were all like prostrate on the floor like oh God I don't know what I did I'm so sorry or like just really taking inventory of things that we thought we could have done that might offend God because of this natural occurrence that we had no control over you know that that happens all the time Katrina she said that that's what New Orleans deserved because they were a sinful City it was a city full of sin and I remember just kind of flabbergasted by that because I had a really hard time reconciling that because all these churches around us were like packing semis full of stuff to send down there to help those people and I just remember seeing the devastation and they're still like they're still trying to recover from that and it's been like 17 years oh gosh there's so much more um women I I I'm a busty woman and I had tattoos but they're all in like my midsection so I could cover them but I had to try to do everything in my power not to be sexy and that's hard to do when you have gigantic boobs because you don't want to make your brother stumble and that always pissed me off it really makes me mad now because I'm like you're telling me a man doesn't have any self-control so that put me in a constant I was already on heightened alert around older men anyway because of the sexual abuse I suffered but then to put that in my head that I could potentially make them stumble I what I mean that's like a powder cake right there you might be like walking around unknowingly like sending men to hell yeah like and that would be all my fault right and I would be the one being punished for it or discipline for it so obviously you know you any excess weight you were carrying was visible sin so one service Gwen gave um it was kind of like I think she might even have included excerpts from the butterfly effect that movie with Ashton Kutcher um you know and saying that um if we decide to be our own ruler and you know make our own decisions and take one bite over full um that could cause someone else to sin and it's a domino effect and then something happens on the other side of the world and that's your fault because you chose to sin instead of putting God first and I was like I was terrified I remember writing that down going don't do that yeah well like the pressure yeah yes it's so much pressure but also at the same time so much like narcissism at the idea that you're yeah you're affecting things all over the world like that um and like this over I think over like spiritualization of something like a very normal occurrence yes right having an extra bite of food you know what I mean like have an extra bite of food and people and there's just trying to die yeah but also those people deserve the tsunami it's like wait what like what are you saying yeah right exactly like so terrible right like where's your Humanity yeah well I'm also wondering how would Gwen determine what excess weight is because watching the documentary and the um the footage we did see of her she seemed to be naturally a very thin woman who also just didn't eat a lot from perception and I'm like so wait are you saying everyone needs to look like you in order to not quote unquote be carrying excess weight showing your sin I'm like how is that even gauged wow that's the thing and that's actually a really good question because I'm not 100 for sure either I remember being at 19 years old 130 pounds like my hip bones were sticking out my collarbone was very prominent and again no matter what weight I am I have big breasts that's the way I was made and they Karen Sim Sue Ruth even my mom at one point all said to me how much more weight do you have to lose because yes because um Sandy Sheridan's daughter Abby McDonald moved down to Nashville and she lost more weight she had already lost a bunch of weight but she lost more because she was cutting her half and half so she was eating a quarter of her food and that was like the joke not joke you cut your half in half like it was a joke like it eventually permeated through other chapters even before we moved down there in 2005. yeah that's so awful I know I mean rail thin like oh look at Elizabeth Elizabeth now she's that's the ideal she's emaciated yeah she's terrifying like you can see like her skull it is quite scary honestly and like I understand there's a lot of health issues that go into potentially being that thin or whatever but based on what the documentary showed it seems that she's choosing to be that way and I'm like girl that's that's dangerous that's scary yeah right I 100 agree I mean to any it to any angle of it is so dangerous like where I'm at now with my um with my journey I have type 2 diabetes and I have high blood pressure um you know I struggle with eating and just that I don't emotionally eat so much anymore like when would even make you feel bad for thinking about what you wanted to eat you know what I mean so like for planning a meal like oh I'm so serious what would make you feel bad about wanting to choose um in between meals like that's just chewing gum was just still committing the act of chewing your food so like don't even chew gum I swear to God you know and this is like I don't know if this is like because it was old school or how I just will never forget these things they're they're imprinted on me forever and it's that stuff that with me still to this day you know and yeah what I have type 2 diabetes would I be like this if it weren't for my parents and if it weren't for Gwen yeah I don't know I can't say you know but just that organization instead of trying to encourage me to find help clearly knowing there's a bigger issue they just exacerbated it and made me feel like a piece of because is I you can't think of self thinking a self is is bad that sin you have to serve others and serve the church so if you're being selfish depression is selfish anxiety didn't exist you know autism doesn't exist none of that exists you you can fix it if you just rely on God right and that's a load of I didn't know what Depression was until I mean I figured out anxiety kind of on my own um when my blood pressure started getting out of control my doctor was like really concerned and I was like I'm I'm anxious all the time I I think I mean I've looked it up I think I have anxiety so he told me to meditate and I was like yeah sure buddy okay um and so I tried I genuinely tried but that just keyed me up even more because I'm like I can't do it and um so finally he put me on Lexapro and the the piece that I felt like you know my husband's like maybe you can come off of it and I said never for anxiety absolutely not I'm just an anxiety my whole being is just like sometimes even on the anxiety meds like I still get anxious that stuff sticks with you you know like and it it it's like especially you know in your sort of formative years being subjected to all this like clearly toxic untrue way of looking at the world like you're kind of programming your brain to think a certain way and to kind of like pull yourself out of that I mean that has to be a process and so I'm curious like what has your healing process looked like I mean I think you know like finding doctors getting on medication like doing what you need to do to like take care of yourself is the most important thing but like um what are some things that you have been doing or or how has the process been of finding healing very long and hard [Music] um because the a lot of what I went through in Remnant was very much tied into my childhood trauma I mean it was just the same if that makes sense yeah it's like more of the same but like backed up with God's word yeah exactly it was a Sia and honestly right after I left Remnant 2006 I actually met my now husband and my first ex-husband um at the same time like within the same week and um my ex-husband was all very much offering me everything I wanted which was love stability and a family you know I wanted my I wanted Ben to have a mom and a dad and because his dad and I didn't stay together and uh and his dad had moved on to someone else which I don't because him I knew it was gonna happen like whatever and Remnant wouldn't allow me to date or get married because I wasn't pure enough and so you know what I mean like I I didn't mention that but that was a thing too but anyways that marriage I'm sure should uh serve as no shock to anyone that it was not a good marriage it was an abusive one um we had no business getting married um it was very much like I thought it was so romantic that we were gonna get engaged and married right away and he loved me so much and it was a goddamn nightmare um absolute nightmare it wasn't physical right away but it definitely didn't take long and um he was a prick but I wasn't innocent either because I was really damaged and sometimes I just made it worse you know so um he had me arrested for domestic violence so I put my hands on him I fought back and you know that's never okay but I got thrown in jail for nine hours worse nine hours of my life if and got out and said I I need to figure this out this is not okay so went to counseling on my own I had to fill out a questionnaire and she knew right away soon as I walked into her room you suffered from sexual abuse and everything in balabana it's like oh my God how did you know and I completely lost it because that's not anything I'd ever faced before um I thought I was lying about it you know I was told I was lying about it and you know um that all I do is lie I just so that was um nice to hear for once you know that's I was just shocked I'm like wait so you a stranger can tell that but my own parents still deny it to this day that it happened I only did that for a little bit because I was a single mom I had to move back in with my dad and stepmom so I didn't have any money and thought therapy was for fancy people with money and that wasn't me and as much as I knew I needed it but the sessions I did have were very helpful you know she had told me something really profound so that I had never heard my life before that um just because their family doesn't mean you should allow them to hurt you and I was like wow that's actually really smart because after I left in 2006 my my mom and stepdad my sibling stayed in Remnant so there was still that manipulation going on if I did speak to them and there was still abuse going on through my dad and stepmom like they would make me think I was some psycho it took a long time like I did a lot of self work being with my now husband and taking time to really take inventory of what I am responsible for and what are the consequences of my own actions what could I have avoided that I could have controlled by making a different choice you know owning my part and things and and really trying to work through and and try to approach situations more calmly instead of trying to be combative with everybody how about you know I try to find a way to speak my piece in a way that can be heard instead of resorting to anger you know getting my emotions out talking about my feelings it was a very slow slow process like I finally found a counselor locally that dealt with um trauma and things like that so that was right about the time I people actually started wanting to hear what I had to say about Remnant and I was like I should probably go get in with somebody and have like a solid foundation if I'm gonna start opening up this can of worms but I will say a lot of it started with me just saying out loud to people I'm a sexual abuse Survivor I'm I'm just I'm a Survivor of things all things I suffered it I've survived it I'm doing my best I'm making the best choices I can I'm really thinking about things like I was always trying to read and figure things out and my husband's been very great you know teaching me um he's been a very great influence on me um does he trigger Sometimes some things sure I mean it's marriage we've been together for like a million years so old habits die hard sometimes but we were working on it you know he drives me up a wall I do the same but we've really come a long way even in our relationship too like this is the first healthy relationship I've had and thank God I'm married to him you know yeah yeah but it took a long long time I'm like oh so I'm not a nut job if you treat these things and talk about these things it's fine and I don't feel as the slightest bit of guilt I'm like actually mad that I was kept from this stuff it's been a it's been a long hard Journey full a lot of hard lessons life lessons and taking long hard looks at myself and going am I the problem because sometimes you end up repeating like the generational trauma like the generational abuse you know and I told myself I wouldn't do that and I did find myself repeating some of those things and I started I found myself um mimicking things in my marriage and relationships that my parents would do and um they some people call that like in the Reddit the subreddit and art raised by narcissists they call that fleas so you do adopt traits of your abuser yeah and I didn't like that at all but it was true so that was tough to kind of look Inward and go oh God like yuck but the difference you got to take accountability for it and move forward it's not pretty it's the ugliest Journey I've ever been on to become a better person and to heal from all this but I'm grateful not everyone gets this chance you know or I have a lot of privilege yeah I mean you have so much to be proud of yourself for thank you I agree in the steps you've made and and the things that you do I mean like it's it's so hard to accept that you need help and to find that help and to you know to depend on people when when for so long you've been in survivor mode you know yeah that was pivotal for me I had no idea I was living in survival mode and it took me a long long even after I figured it out it took me like at least a couple more years to finally get out of survival mode thanks Megan for sharing all of those things and like you're anyone's healing journey is non-linear and takes so many different paths and turns and so um it's fascinating to hear about the the aftermath and um the pain that comes from all these different forms of abuse including the spiritual abuse from a place like Remnant fellowship and that theology that that sort of seeped into your family and your mom's side um so I'm curious to hear coming coming off of that a little bit about um Beyond Zion which is the foundation you created as a result of all of this uh and hear about sort of what you all um what you what you do what kind of what kind of work you're doing and um sort of the the mission behind Beyond Zion oh thank you for asking so I was filming in La for the HBO docu-series uh in I think it was March of 2021 and they had said something that just kind of was very profound to me that all of the survivors of Remnant are so scattered and a lot of them don't have contact with other survivors I was at the point where I'm like I'm ready to get this all out like I I can't hold this in anymore it's got to come out and just knowing that people are out there doing this on their own you know even for me like I guess my goal is to just be that person I needed over 15 years ago I needed someone to tell me that I my feelings are valid that I am valid that it is going to be okay and that we're going to help you make the right decisions there is hope there is a life outside like because you become so infilitized you know I didn't know how to function in the real world anymore which is crazy because I wasn't completely out of the real world but that's how much control they had over me and I didn't realize it until I was free of it and then so went oh you know what do I do I don't know like what is this what is any of this like I knew you had to have a job to pay the bills but everything else I was blissfully ignorant too and um that's so damaging to people and it's so damaging when people are around you going what's your problem you know like why can't you just get this right or figure it out like that's been if you haven't guessed already that's been my whole theme of my freaking life is the people closest to me that should love me and support me are like well you're stupid basically or you know whatever you can't figure it out there's something wrong with you there's not I just had gone through something really traumatizing and had no one that understood and I found as the years went on and the more I was willing to be open to Healing everything that I went through the more I wanted to be around people that could understand and and finding people that understood and talking to them I was like oh oh my gosh I'm not nuts they can validate me like um the generation cult podcast was really integral in that um just me starting to identify why I thought Remnant was a cult okay when she did some interviews with scientologists and a few other Cults like they would talk about like things they went through I'm like oh I went through that same thing oh they did that Remnant did that to me you know just kind of like ticking off all these boxes and um I was like why aren't we all together like we're stronger together why are we cowering in fear from this organization this is nuts so my goal is to be that person you can come to for reassurance to get it all off your chest but then if you if you need counseling resources okay great where do you live let's figure it out um Let's Walk Through This Together here's what I found through Google reviews and everything but you know I always tell them I can do all this for you I can help you find all these things but it's up to you to take the next steps I can't do it for you you know I help with um I'm not illegal anything I'm not a licensed counselor I'm not a lawyer in any sense of the word like I don't know the law but I have a lot of really great resources that I can reach out to if I have any questions like that um I do have like a whole file of legal advice especially for custody issues I bet people come to me for that and um you know being able to be in survivors together to help that parent win a decent amount of custody if not full custody of their children to keep them out of Remnant but there are some sad cases out there right now where this woman she lives in North Carolina has been fighting for custody of her children for over 10 years and has documented abuse why parents that are in Remnant and she can't get custody of her kids like the court sides with the ex-husband every time oh my god I've got a GoFundMe going for her to raise money that's basically what I do you know I I'm your safe space I do investigate called like I can kind of like tell people from what I've learned from Remnant and my research and everything like I can say that's a cult this is how you should proceed you know or if it's out of my realm I um Ashlyn Hilliard has her own organization called people leave calls where she'll help do counseling and stuff like that so I'm the curator of resources basically that's so powerful what you mentioned I mean having resources and having been like I've walked through this before and I know the way like here's a map um but but on top of that being able to say like oh no I went through that and this is what my experience was like and people being able to identify with it is so powerful I think that's like a huge piece of what we've done on our podcast and what we've done with some of the people that we've had on is they've talked about experiences that they've had in the church or like with weight loss or and things like that and they said this is my journey and in that you're able to identify you're like oh wait that happened to me too and it hurts so bad but I didn't have words for it and I mean in a sense that's what you that's what this documentary I think accomplished is is being able to put words to like hey this type of behavior is not healthy it's not uplifting it's not normal it's not godly and here's why and so one question I had for you was what are what are to you some of the top red flags that you see when identifying Cults or when people are questioning whether they're in a cult something I found over the years are very blatantly Cults um but a lot of them are subtle a church that actively wants to plant other churches like to spread their message why you know that I don't love that like just this is just initially if you're looking into it but if like you're visiting it personally if there are messages this is the only way um this is God's truth I don't know where I saw this but it was a church I uncovered early on in researched for a scripted reality series about cults that it's in Ohio somewhere in Greenville maybe and the leader of that organization said he is God uh run yeah any time an organization says it's us against them and the world is wrong and we're the right way you know what I mean like um if they're trying to isolate you from your family if they're trying to take up all of your time um if if they are seriously all about you like the love bombing in the beginning like they just want to spend all their time with you and invite you to all these places and get to know you and it's gonna fall off it always does those are some major redflex basically here's how you can sum it up look up the red flags of an abusive relationship and that's exactly what called stew um they're very hand in hand and I used to think I was trivializing it by saying that but I've actually found a lot of cult survivors do agree that um that's why I say if you can't find a counselor who is who specializes in cult abuse like spiritual abuse find it find a counselor that specializes in trauma because there's not an unfortunate there's not a lot of counselors that are well versed in in called abuse but I'm hoping that'll change but anyways yeah red flags anytime someone says Us Versus Them tries to isolate you from your friends and family it by saying that God said to do that that's what God wants you to do like if you can't question any of it or if you ask questions and they get weird well the big things are control if they're trying to control any aspect of your life if they're all up in your business right away and if they start trying to tell you what you're doing is right or wrong I don't know like those first sure and Us Versus Them thing is a big red flag too I mean that control thing can be so hard to identify you know because 100 is so subtle and it's so manipulative that it feels like it's for your benefit or it feels like this is about like what's good or what God wants or you know any number of those things but but but learning to realize like oh those are just tactics it's often very well disguised I guess is what I'm trying to say eventually what I would love to do like my dream would be to go to high schools across the United States and just speak to these kids and let them know you know because I don't and I'm not putting parents down I teach my kids this because I know but I teach my kids to question everything yeah don't take things at face value just because someone's an adult doesn't mean they know better um and to think for yourself trust your gut instinct if it doesn't feel right don't do it you know if if someone's acting a little hinky to you be careful you know um I think it's important that kids learn that that's why these things Thrive because people aren't like listening to their gut or trusting themselves or even like the gaslighting that they can receive is like oh but why would you even ask that question do you even believe and it's like whoa whoa I mean I remember pulling myself out of a very controlling manipulative friendship in high school and I remember that my number one feeling was like nobody told me like nobody's teaching anybody how to like identify these things or like when to like like put your guard up because things are not like you know and and all those things happen to me like being kind of isolated from my friends kind of subtle control like religious manipulation like all of it is kind of like in wrapped up in that but at the time it felt like oh no I I have the secret knowledge of something you know or like I'm somehow above other people or it's it's sort of like a nurse cystic way of looking at life that I mean anyways yeah so all that being said thank you so much for sharing that's really powerful yeah and I think really helpful for other people to have I mean a lot of our listeners are either active in Christian communities deconstructing or post deconstruction and so I think those things are really helpful to have like on your mind as you interact with different Faith leaders or even your own family friends people in your circles and so those are good tools to have in your tool belt I shall say but kind of going back a little bit too Remnant we're in the aftermath of the documentary right we've got more and more people coming forward like yourself resources coming up like the Beyond Zion Foundation I mean it feels kind of like everywhere you look something's going on but Remnant is getting very quiet um in some ways uh Elizabeth has not left her home uh that we have been able to find for quite some time um and Gwen is no longer with us the leader so I'm curious to know in your personal opinion Megan where do you think this is all going right like tell us your theories and what you think is next for them because it's really hard to tell at this point like it's kind of like a sealed off like happy facade that no one can really penetrate yeah and they've always kind of kept it that way I'm not surprised at that at all I mean I I've been quite curious myself exactly where it's gonna go um and just Elizabeth's approach to everything after she's left my heart truly does go out to her I feel so much compassion empathy for her her losses have been unfathomable yeah she's buried a child she's buried her husband she's buried her mother you know and her brother has left the organization her dad's not in it like I don't want Remnant to continue like that's not my want do I think it's going to disappear no because if as long as there is anyone who believes and buys into the message and like Adam Brooks said as long as money can be made yeah it's not gonna end like I'm realistic in that sense I think a lot of people thought after Gwen died like Remnant was going to crumble and I was the only one going nope nope it's not it's not are you kidding me Gwen was the most calculated person do you really really think she was going to leave behind a mess like of course she was going to make sure her Legacy lived on I think she's a very smart woman to be honest she was a very smart businesswoman that is clear 100 and you know I admire her for that but it has been dwindling I I would be shocked if there was ever an influx of new members especially after so much being out there strong now like about Remnant there's never really been anything concrete at least there's always been a little bit of Survivor chatter here or there there's a lot of bitter people out there about Remnant which I don't hold that against them but I'm one of the survivors that chooses not to continually bash it um because it makes me know better than them in my personal opinion so they're going to continue on I'm going to continue on and live my life and um they're gonna they're probably watching me and everything that I'm doing or maybe they're not I don't know but they took Delight in like HBO stock falling somehow they got a a clip of Elizabeth saying that she's been praying for her enemies to be struck down and she took HBO's stock drop is a sign that God was hearing her and trying to defeat her enemies interesting here's the thing Elizabeth that's gonna go back up so like okay for instance for me right Ellen and I have been the two most out in public about it like talking out against Remnant things like that I made a whole organization dedicated to helping people from Remnant like that was the whole reason but I'm like well I can't just be for Remnant I have to be for everybody right like yeah Brenda's not the only one but maybe they watch me maybe they don't I don't know um but like they could take things like okay for instance I'm overweight so that's I'm choosing sin like I've chosen Satan so how am I how am I credible because I'm overweight how am I credible because I have tattoos and piercings and you know um I smoke and I drink and um you know I lost my job at Ulta um that was God punishing me that's how they would turn that around you know my son got hurt in football um that's God punishing me you know my sin is now leaking over to my children consequences are because of my sin you know so how can I be credible look at how my life is cursed right they would take they would do that that's how they would spin my life but it's a joke because in the real world if you are set in reality like life naturally Ebbs and flows with good and bad there's always good and bad consequences regardless of what choice you make things are just gonna happen there's nothing you can do I can be a bitter and angry person I can do that all day long but how does that serve me or anyone that needs my help it doesn't you know they can drink that poison yeah I refuse to do it anymore so um they're not gonna if they ever grew again I would fall over dead but um I hope Elizabeth decides to turn away yeah I really do she deserves it she deserves a life that's her own I don't think her life has been her own since ever definitely and I definitely share I mean there's so many characters from I guess I shouldn't say characters so many people from the documentary that I'm curious about but I find myself most curious about Elizabeth um now and so I should definitely share your empathy um and well wishes for her but and honestly your um self-advocacy in the form of responsibility is very admirable like the way you have taken so much responsibility while healing while going through your journey is like really inspiring and we always hate like coming to the end of an episode especially with guests such as yourself um because I feel like you just have like so much wisdom to share and your story is just so compelling because it truly is that of a Survivor but all that to say Megan we love to ask this question to all of our guests but I have to know your answer and it is what does the phrase woman being mean to you I thought long and hard about this and the word that always comes to me when I think about what it means to me is um free freedom peace having that for the first time in my life just is amazing that's beautiful it is beautiful and thinking of one zone Accord it's so it's something I feel like we all deserve right like no matter I say feel like no matter what you've seen or been through I'm like at some point in your life I I hope everyone gets that opportunity to feel free and to feel peace I like that answer it's very good um so as we're kind of wrapping up what resources do you have to share with our listeners I mean it can be anything documentaries uh such as the one we have reviewed or books or articles what is there anything in particular that you feel like people need to know about the GoFundMe for this sweet woman trying to gain custody of her children um throw them all our way yes I have a GoFundMe currently going to help this woman finally regain custody of her children and free them from Remnant um I do I did outline in it that I because their children are minors I've kept everyone's identity like I have to keep it under wraps absolutely yes it's important you know because I also don't want Remnant to get a leg up on it either you know so they I mean you know uh but besides that um anything by Dr janja Lynch or Lal excuse me not Lynch Lala John jalalek is amazing uh called cult news 101 fantastic resource ixa International cultic Studies Association they have so many wonderful they do conferences they um have so many wonderful resources as well um Ashlyn Hilliard she runs the organization people leave Cults and she works um on cult recovery as well like helping families work through call issues there's more like I don't want to say exit counseling necessarily but it's something along those lines and I'm probably not even doing it justice but whatever she's at the helm of is amazing and super helpful I can say that much Deanna Levy's podcast called generation cult is amazing so if you if you've ever suspected or think you may have been in a cult listening to those Survivor stories because Deanna herself is a Survivor as well is very helpful if you're trying to like explore those Waters and just think about it but I want to be clear that while I am a white woman um I do I can help you find the resources you need if you're a person of color if you're lgbtq plus like any of that like I've got you I'm open-minded I love you you're all amazing I advocate for you but um because it's important I think they tend to get left behind a little bit yeah um especially from what I noticed like Helen got a lot of on Twitter after the second half release to the point where I kind of had to hop in and go what the hell like commit me like that not her are you kidding like and then Helen Keller explained it to me and I was like oh God I wasn't trying to be the white jesus like the white savior you know like I didn't she's like well you're not and I said okay good like I felt kind of bad afterwards I'm like oh yeah and we learn you know I was like I guess I should have just like asked you instead of like being like leave her alone well and I will I usually always do my utmost best to post like as soon as I get any new or additional resources I try to post those on my Facebook page and I'll post it on my website as well I'm sure I have some I might even have some of these links to the resources I've given on that website as well but if not I'll make sure to have those posted yeah wonderful yeah and we'll totally will include all of these resources that you're recommending in our um episode description and uh everyone will be able to find them everyone will have access and to be on Scion so because I'm sure people will want to find you well Megan I feel like we could podcast for at least two more hours and just like thank you so much for your time and your willingness and how like how kindly you offered to share your story with us um and with the listener it's so so so valuable and I know that there are people out there that have experienced very similar things to you and this will greatly help them such a gift yeah it is really is with all that to say I think we're just gonna wrap up for today um and one beings make sure that you are following us on Instagram and Tick Tock we constantly have conversations going and I'm pretty sure I could be wrong but the original review of this documentary was actually a listener recommended topic I think so you can be sending us things to talk about things to review people you're always here for that interviews um so yeah make sure you're following us give us a review and send us a message because we want to hear from you and with all that we'll just see you next time bye bye bye okay [Music]

Channel: Woman Being Podcast

Views: 201

Keywords: woman being, womanhood, woman being podcast, femism, jesus feminist, christian feminist, feminism, woman empowerment, podcast, video podcast, women empowering women, woman power, women supporting women, celebrating womanhood, biblical womanhood, equality for all, equality, equality matters, feminist movement, podcasts, the way down, the weigh down workshop, gwen shamblin, christian cult, weight loss, hbo max, god, greed, and the cult of gwen shamblin, remnant fellowship, diet

Id: bPETK-lnPSs

Length: 65min 13sec (3913 seconds)

Published: Tue Jan 24 2023