Lean Construction Ireland: BIM for Lean Construction

hi everybody my name is Eleanor Parker I'm going to be your moderator today I'd like to welcome you to the second webinar for the lean construction Ireland construction client form a forum and construction academia forum I'm going to pass you over in a moment to one of our LCI core group representatives who's going to introduce the topic and the speaker firstly some logistics if you do have a question for us please note that you're muted we can't hear you so you can type it in the webinar you have a question box we will consolidate all of these questions and we'll ask them to Ralph in the second half of the webinar if we do have any questions that don't get answered today we'll make sure to answer these and send them out after the webinar there will also be a survey at the end it's just five questions please do fill this out it's important to ensure that we are continuously learning and improving our webinars as we go so please just do give us your feedback at the end of the webinar it shouldn't take more than two minutes our agenda today will be as follows Kevin white is going to do the introduction then Ralph Montagu is going to do is presentation for 30 minutes and then we'll move to about 20-25 minutes of Q&A questions and then the survey at the end so I'm now going to pass you over to Kevin white hello everyone and Kevin wife just firstly yeah what I'd like to do is a client get rid of the feedback at the end so as Eddie mentioned there is give a feedback on the webinar let me take one or two minutes at the end again for continuous improvement and I'm an FCA core group member and I'm currently sitting on the LTI community practice and which links in with the client forum and academia forum and ported for today's webinar the title is BIM for the in construction I'm really looking forward to hearing about and the speaker is Robin and Ralph comes with over 20 years experience in managing merit projects as a registered architect he's a managing partner of our TOC specialist in consultancy he's also a chairman of the or ie a I and a coordinator with a seated BIM group he's up with an adoption of being and has recently given appointed as part of the national BIM Council of ardent Ralph's result still apart I'm Metro infinity and represents the RIAA I on the architecture Council of Europe so we're delighted to have such a prestigious speaker with us today and I'd like to nail past World War two wealth to start to presentation thank you Kevin and thank you to Ian construction Ireland towards opportunity to present you today and this is great so today we're going to talk all about them or Building Information modelling and how to apply to the lean construction kevin is usually already so skipper others that are comfortable to say our company laptops have been working with project teams and businesses and individuals for the last seven years to to help implement them through consultancy production support and training services so hopefully we can bring some of that experience to the discussion today so in simple terms but them is about information and information about building or both infrastructure and I think we can all agree that without information I think happens that you can't build anything that information you can't maintain and operate anything you can't really transact in buildings without information so information is very important it has value its massive that should be carefully considered and looked after I think we can also all agree that quality of information perfects performance and outcomes so if you have good quality information things normally go well and if you have poor quality information things usually don't go so well so so there's rings around how do you define quality information I mean I would define as information that is digital fully in other words it's it's information that can be used and reused behind people it's searchable it's accessible it's accurate and as usual in other words you have it in time in the tree to use that when you get it so I don't think many people would disagree with us point users the problem is building information we know it in the construction industry today is the exact opposite of what it just said it's predominately paper-based it's very difficult to search or query it's highly unlikely that it's accurate because of the way it's produced and when it's produced and in a static format it's very difficult to keep it up to date and very quickly the information here becomes redundant and things don't have to be that great we live in the digital information age and in other areas of life we've just come to appreciate and expect better ways of working with information so when you want to book your next holiday for instance you don't want to sit in the travel agents and I said that morning paging through a printed copy or flight schedule of every airline that sliced your destination you want to go online enter your destination push a button and immediately presented with the most accurate latest flight information from a number of airlines number price options from different travel agents you want to make a selection you want to put in your credit card details and you want confirmation straightaway that you'll see is both genders that's just how we expect to work with information in other areas of life but in construction you like you want to find out something about a building you're going to go and spend half a day in the store full of Labor our child yes paging through stuff and by the way even if you found the information you probably wouldn't track that it's the latest or most accurate information so you end up going to survey anything anyway so I suppose today is about now how do we bring in construction into this digital information age when you look at the information asset and when we talk about an asset information model we're not talking just about a three-dimensional model we talking about graphical detail non graphical detail and document and when you look at the lifecycle of information what happens is during the delivery phase a lot of time and money is spent so putting together this information producing its collating its etcetera some of the during design stage quite a lot of a during construction stage but then when you hand out all the information to the building owner or operator the information enters the cycle of you're continuously degrading and greeting because it's not a static format that can't be kept up to date it goes missing etc now obviously this isn't a ideal situation 20 building owner and many more informed owners are now beginning to implement digital information strategies based on international best practices and asset management you know why so 55 file which requires a service and your commission management strategy and the whole purpose of the strategy is to turn the tide on this information and make sure it's continuously upgrading and increasing now obviously the sooner you move they're going towards the beginning of the process the less it's going to cost you in fact if you can learn with online right from the beginning it will cost you nothing because people have to produce the information anyway you're just asking them to do a quick in accordance with your strategy designing is that having a digital information stretcher you would bring to your project ability highest that the sooner you can move that eye to the beginning of the project and now things will sing to me that you know a lot of the discussion around them is you know usually amongst designers in the design stage and writing services a lot of the discussion our army needs is the wrong construction stage but nobody really seems to be taking a little holistic view hopefully the lifecycle of the information asset the problem starts with the way in which we produce information in our industry there it is predominantly safe event even though we're using a lot of technologies Mehcad and Excel and etc at the point of exchanging the information with other people that's usually printed on paper and yeah that's the copy that you get to work with so we're talking about multiple documents that have to be manually produced manually coordinated there's duplication of effort between all the different types of documents there's a lot of a bunch of work is the success of checking it's prone to human error it's labor-intensive it's costly and it's time-consuming so it's problematic to start with but you have another problem and you work in a very high very ignited industry broadly broken down into planning design construction and operations but there's so many stakeholders involved to project and all of which have their own business interests and the old way of doing things and this ends up creating a complicated series of transactions of information between will be sparking at different stages of the project to the point where the collected knowledge or intelligence of the building information that's being produced is almost impossible to get you because if it's stored in different places and on different company servers and the people's pcs or even some of these people had so opposed the vision of them is that we get to the point one day that we could describe one building by one database of information and that people would be required to input information into that database as you go through the cycle of project and when you're looking for something we just go to that database and you get your latest and greatest information so I said that is a vision of them we're not quite there yet but that's that's where it's going for those of you who haven't come across them before with basically boom is a process of building a virtual building in software you use you literally assemble the building from objects that represent a real-life counterparts and the important point is not just 3d geometry every object is a container or place order if you like of all the information about that component of the building in a digital format and you know the immediate benefit obviously working in this way that you have this virtual building and everybody can look around and walk around and make sure things are going to work and sit and have a full appreciation of what the building is now you can still get the traditional outputs from a better process such as drawings and details and schedules etc but the important point here is that these aren't drawings that are manually drafted these are views that are extracted or derived from the model so the usefulness of film is that you only put the information in once into the model and if you need to make a change and make the change once in the model itself and every document where that's derive have extracted it automatically updated so it's a far more efficient way of producing information and then give you a way of working now I want to make a point that you don't some ask them to the traditional process you don't say they're going to do the project we can add them basically it is an alternative methodology maybe the traditional process is where the intellectual productive input goes into producing multiple documents with in Billman the the methodology is to here at the international production input goes into building the virtual building now you can scroll derive a document from that process but the one is a very time-consuming costly process as we said and the other is a far more efficient way of producing better quality information and the reason for laboring this point is because we've seen over the last years a lot of people practice what I would call pseudo of them and that's where they continue to develop the design that innovation methodology and in the corner of the office on where they got some poor guy and you may frantically convert everything back to a model and notice if you do them that way you've just taken a process that is yes workflow and time-consuming and costly and added something on top of it where if you do them properly it's going to be more efficient and down and cheap saving server I would say watch out for suit of them on project and there's a lot more of their happening than you would imagine in 2011 the UK government still has a strategy to make them mandatory on all public projects by 2016 to this let's aim planar and energy strategy they defined this different levels of the maturity they will zero being just care they were one being a mixture of 2d and 3d but following them standard level two is where each discipline or supplier is working in them but into a separate model which can be federated together and level three is the Nirvana I spoke about earlier one database of information to an integrated database or collection of databases that people are feeding information to now for confessional and if I had spit up very insurance reasons we can't do level three yet so if anyone he says they're doing the other three do it but the UK government I suppose already working on the level three strategies through a program called digital growth of both Britain so that's worth following the important one Jeff is that all of this is focused around standards we had talked a little bit about standards later so just graphically well that look like at level two you have separate sip of discipline model each discipline is using their model to produce their documentation but you can bring those models together in what's called the federated model and in this federated model environment you can check that everything is going to work and fit together and and software volumen automatically by client crashes between items within your model so the whole 3d coordination becomes a lot more easier to do now that you have this virtual model you can do things that you couldn't do before you can link every object in the model to your construction program and and carry out visual sequencing to look at issues of logistics alt inspect et cetera in this virtual environment so you can resolve issues Barnegat you can let's call for debug you can link every object in the model to the cross database and then computer to do what computers do really well which is calc stuff quickly and accurately that means you need escalators that know how to work with model information or five people you can analyze this virtual building you can analyze for structural analysis you can meet you can analyze for energy performance and all point of analysis they should try and optimize the design and come up with the best solution and take multiple iterations of the design before you build it and lastly in this environment you can capture all the information at the facilities managers and operators will need to effectively operate a building in the future such as maintenance periods warranty period everything so that's called 70 them so that those are the different dimensions of little different uses ability right I think it's a beautiful to take a minute just to talk about what your clients want Construction clients want better outcomes on their project and by better outcomes early they want better buildings both quicker and built cheaper and it's interesting when you look at the UK construction 2005 targets you know that they said that they want to have 50% better performing buildings and they're going to measure that by the amount of carbon a them it's a fifty percent less carbon they weren't willing to be delivered 50 percent quicker and they once building to be delivered 33 percent cheaper now whether you agree with those targets or not so therefore the portal coin question either use if the UK has a marketer are striving towards those topics and we're not we're very quickly going to become uncompetitive from a time point of view the first thing they want to really understand is what is it what is it that they're getting what is the building going to look like what is keiretsu they need to taper so they want to understand the scope they obviously want to understand when they're going to get it with the time they want to understand how much is going to cost they're really interested in quality is it going to be well designed well constructed how much will be to maintain and operate clients are really interested in getting value for money and ultimately clients are interested in certainty you know there for most clients building or constructing building is what they call business so they won't be there risks to be effectively management professional Kings that they that they are the employer now you might say that's what clients want what's what's this got to do with them or the 3d aspects of them the fact that you have this virtual building and you can take clients around the building and yeah it gives everybody a much better understanding of the scope of the project the four DSX of them will sequencing and registered etc give everyone a much better understanding of the time and the five the aspects of buildings of the quantity takeoff and check cross-checking is everybody must better understand because the 60 answers of them all the analysis we had structural analysis or energy analysis accepted it all to do with achieving better quality buildings and the 70 aspects of them is also a quality issue in my opinion is it's about giving a digital accessible accurate data about the building to Christ at the end to help them maintain and operate their buildings so I can tell you this from our experience clients don't want boon as such what they really want is all the things that boom can happen and of course you know clients or just expecting more and more at the project teams that they thought you know we'd offer this to them but ultimately they want better for the both quicker and both cheaper and you might have a discussion about whether that's even possible expose the traditional response to that is you can't have all three if you want something better you have to pay more for it or you have to spend more time in it and a first estimating is based on the incorrect assumption that you can't do anything about the process so what we're talking about is improving the way we do things and and cutting out a lot of waste and making the whole process a farm for Maureen and if you do that then obviously you can convert some of that waste back into the quality and value and there's a lot of ways in design and construction and I won't read through the folders to think that you can research yourself but what Allah says every one of those things is happening on projects all the time and every one of those things costs a lot of money but not one of those things add any value to the building itself therefore by definition all of that is waste and and organizations that measure these kind of things like the leaf construction Institute for instance would say that over 30% of the cost of construction is waste and this amazing community of the industry that designers would be begging for a 1% increase in the design field as contractors we might be haggling for a 1% increase in proper much nobody seems to be doing anything about this enormous percentage of waste but personally I don't think clients want to pay for laid waste they prefer to convert some of that waste back into work manual or more quality and that's the root of all those things listed on the left-hand side is poor quality information that's why we feel so missing don't you have such a significant impact it's not it's not everything but it's going to have a big impact on on reconstruction another way to look at this is where we spend money in construction for every euro we spend in design we spend about 20 euros construction and about 60 years in maintaining and operating buildings I like to turn that around and say that we just spent a little bit of extra time at the beginning in the design phase getting the building like in this virtual building environment yet coordinating the design resolving any issues before we go to construction and go into construction with digital data that the contractors can immediately use and process without any spend you know we printing our drawings and lastly output highlighting things then we should avoid a lot of these the waste that typically happens during construction and get about 20 euros of value in the construction phase and by designing buildings and testing them in this environment with performance in mind and also handing over useful digital electorates accessible data to to the operators you should get about 60 euros of value in indium in your browser space so if you know the key message there is the right time to invest in in this process and them an early as possible in the design phase because that's where you would get the highest return on that investment so hopefully this short introduction gives you an idea that there is a far more efficient way of working and therefore you it's a lean method of producing managing and exchanging information that fits perfectly into the whole infrastructure philosophy and no matter what your role is in the project you need information to do your job and in doing your job you're producing information that other people who need to do their job so and to make the decisions and then to get good performance you need good quality information and getting back to my earlier definition yeah that's information that digital searchable accessible accurate timely and ready to use and it will just quickly look at the principles of link construction and how that might apply to producing managing and exchanging information where we might achieve a lot of savings or reductions in waste just in Toronto support in exchanging information digital information versus paper information avoids a lot of duplication of effort an infantry not the way we used into action and store information and the ability to reuse information for our future projects etc it's far easier in a digital environment that is the paper environment and in terms of motion and moving people around in a witness this virtual building and the physical chemistry and the model you can actually use a lot of technology such as immersive with anything and bring the expertise into the model from all rap world like with people having to meet in a making room with printed copy or paper drawing so that other potential savings there and upsetting information we all know that to design change and buildings have to be updated yes it was said earlier to make a change in boom you make a change once and that change is automatically reflected in all the documents that I expect the dryer for that change we're waiting for that change to be reflected in the manual processes it would take my life processing information now if you receive digital information versus receiving paper-based documents and yeah I was no wood carnal PDF files as paper-based documents because you can't process it'll select press them and read them with your eyes so if you receive digital data you can immediately use the processes and get on with your job in the traditional way of working we see too much information being produced too early by the wrong types of people and result in a lot of rework I think building offers many opportunities to for the earlier earlier engagement of people who know how to construct and fabricator and in terms of defects this idea of building the building twice and resolving the design issues and coordination issues in the virtual environment rather than doing on that on site much later on in the process would save enormous month of money and so we have highly skilled people in the construction industry but too much of their time is being spent you know working through Monday manual based paper-based processes so I think then offers many opportunities to - to get rid of the mundane stuff and let people do what they're really good at so the question of where we can raise in the question last time for the lane construction community do you think the team can work properly without them and we are not been working without from billet our thinking the more Grady brings a lot into to the discussion so what's the cash it all sounds good and there is a catch up fortunately and and this is that the fact everything I've said up to now is not going to happen you know it's not going to happen unless there's a clearly defined managed process put in place that requires every participant to to make their contribution to the project in this way so you know we need a standard way of working and just to say something quick about standards you know time standards are the reason things work properly if I go back to my earlier example of booking your holiday online you know the reason that works so well and it's so seamless almost is because of a standard called HTML now as a user of the Internet I don't want to know the technical details of HTML I just want to use it and must work for me but if you're a web designer making application you need to understand everything about the standard and in the same way and designers and contractors move from a paper-based environment to to digital design and construction anthem yes these declines don't necessarily want to understand the technical details are standard but the designers and the contractors really have to understand the standards if they're one things to work well for a client point of view they just want to Neely the button like the Internet they just wanted to work another thing to think about when you talk about them and standards is that those is just both a process and a deliverable I mean Building Information modelling is a verb and so when we do building information model orders are not something we provide it's the deliverable so we need standards that cover both the process and the deliverable I don't want to spend too much time on this but you know for the process you know all the standards and a coming out of the UK which covered the information management processes during the capital delivery phase operational phase and / et cetera and in terms of the deliverable there's already international standards for data schema specification success definitions etcetera so I suppose the point is we don't have to reinvent the wheel everything's there he the British Standards on process are currently becoming ISO standards and the unique are classification system that diversity Miu K it complies with the ISO standard for their specification Co meaning which is a information exchange format for facilities management which is in any deliverable it complies with the ISO standards the standards for data security and all of this is being driven by international best practice for asset management or ISO 55l so you know all the standards are there all the guidance today from the UK you know solving the benefit we just have to start using it it is a key point on sustaining is just a few minutes on this particular set I think this is the one that will apply to most people in design and construction but it's a specification for information management for this cup of delivery phase it requires a few key things to happen it requires the client to produce what's called an AI R or employers information requirement it requires people to be pre-qualified for their capability to participate in the project through a series of questions and as 91 it requires a few commercial things to happen there has to be a contract so it is a little protocol then is it tender - everybody's appointments or contracts somebody has to be put in charge project information managers both design stage and construction stage at missile system outline scope of service for that if some issues or pirates deal with a digital plan of work has to be put together to set up who's going to deliver what information when they're going to deliver it and what level of detail and information is going to be that that's called the digital plan of work and you can have developed a handy free tool that you can use to do that when you're rendering on a project with a group designer or contractor or supplier you have to produce what's called a pre-contract from the execution plan which is a document that sets up how you're going to respond to the employers information requirements and the contents of all these documents are actually specified in a pan a river 9 to 2 you also have to provide some capability assessments as part of your tender once you get appointed the project team together will put together what's called the post contract from an execution plan with the whole team together sets out having Anna deliver on the employees information requirements you have to set up a commendation environment a central repository for all project information which is carefully managed and controlled and ultimately that Floyd estimation requirement will define that the building deliverables which will include Cobie which is the exchanging for FM or facilities management and will include specification such as Erica and possibly soft-landing which is which would keep the design team or construction team home bored for the couple years into the project to help people use the building copy so that's what the standard sets up at first it might look complicated but I suppose it's a QR mixer it's really not rocket science and in fact lots of that is what we should be doing anyway using good project management or good design coordination so you'll be documenting the requirements and responsibilities we're probably doing that ready in the employment information appliance or the digital planner work we document how the Queen's going to deliver through the bill execution plan we're making a contractual through the bug protocol with winning common in charge an overall project information manager and individual task team managers for each discipline we're checking that everyone's capable through capability assessment for giving all the information in the central well-organized place the common data are we making sure all the data is well structured through Coby I see in class etcetera and rule number one make sure nobody is practicing suit of them on the projects because it just causes problems so there's also a couple of acronyms you need to to learn and get used to there but it's it's quite simple to follow those eight steps you usually a good some project there's a lots of tools available to help at the Royal Institute of Architects in Ireland I put together two attempts of documents to to assist employers to help to write the e ir and also assist project teams to write with them execution plan in the youth in the UK the the NBS have made available a free free toolkit online which helps you develop your visual time at work the construction ameesha counseling UK have got the protocol document that got the scope of service for information management and guidance on PII insurance and the construction project information committee have a number of templates that you can use and specifically the compatibility assessment forms and then what I would say on the last item there is you don't have to wait until the next tender comes up and for the BIM requirements you can take this form and you can begin to assess your company for capability and begin filling the gaps before the gender comes rekkles you know what the questions going to be and when you look at all these things that we're just briefly covered and the things you need to know to be buildable to comply you realize very quickly that very little of this has to do with software some of it does but it's mostly a project management issue but the large two things are the ability to receive open and navigate query an align some data you can do that with free software so for many people in the industry though it's not producing so please be just using it you can use free easy-to-use tools but obviously the last item focus for those who are producing the information and managing information you do need a new set of skills or new set of tools to do that so and something I hope this give me a good overview that film in the process like software it's about creating and sharing information in a more streamlined way to run improving the collaboration and communication and and getting better quality information to try and reduce some of the risk and waste in construction other words we want better outcomes and it's all about the information we'll be hiring them and how they use but it's different cycles just briefly if anybody needs help with us as I mentioned earlier abducts in providing services to project teams consultancy services production services training and support services directly on project we'll just wait if your company wants to implement them please contact us and I just wanted to say you know one side to let everybody know about the constructional IT Alliance which really becomes the meeting place for them in Ireland if you like the the Alliance is a nonprofit organization which has been promoting the use of IT in construction for over 12 years now there's about 20 industry stakeholder groups that are represented is about 6,000 members on LinkedIn group who's been having a series of breakfast waiting for the last five years specifically on them and annual conferences with recently established Lyon regional groups around the country to try and get the message and help people at fill in that area there's an annual conference coming up in November these have also been appointed by H by Lila to do some research around items capability around this area and more recently that they've established a national firm transfer so with that we could go to questions you there go thanks a million Ralph it's an actual presentation and we've had a number of questions in and not specifically for you of it's more or less around and whether we're sharing the D presentation which we are we're planning to share that with everyone and also the recording and we are recording this session as part of the webinar so that will be shared with everyone also so they can get the full information and there was another question again not specifically for Ralph regarding the VFC I provide courses for learning on deploying BIM we do have a starter pack on our website which we go to maybe less if you could go to the next slide please and one after and so our next webinar is a zone is on the 31st of August and the information that people will be looking for and will be is on absolutely there as seen and so you can check in with us on LinkedIn Twitter Facebook and if you're looking for more information on our website you can actually get information and some of the more information coming to our questions was an excellent presentation covered and very people very happy with the information and just maybe one quick question that's come in very quickly there and wealth is do you think the processes which were described in paws 1192 are sufficiently detailed or would one or two more levels of detail be useful and the question that's just come in there and run Meggie yes what I would say about the standards I mean it's trying to apply to all types of project so it is questionary and I think you do the points of the standard is that it's asking you to sit down at the beginning of project and write these documents so I think the best where the detail for the project will come in this when the science is done and like there is information requirement you'll go into more detail or when the project teams have done and like state them execution sir that's where you go into more detail so they understand it is going to be quite broad and able to apply to any type of project but I think you but the team has to sit down and that come up with the details that make sense yes project specific distances when make a point from the trainings rather the people might have knows the teacher offer a lot of subsidized trainings of seed to have a skill net where which is government subsidized training and so you might have a look at that for people who looking for training thanks thanks for our Alfred one more question that's just come in there in guards two and a where Western employ start implementing lean or BIM and a very very broad question I know but and maybe maybe you could just give us a minute on that well yeah well I say first wishes started with the lean construction Institute of Ireland and and t7 in between those two those two organizations oh yeah to give advice and guidance and then they're pretty on your banks I mean both organizations are putting on great events pull for industry to to two hundred to learn to understand what leans what about my thumb's all about and an to get further information so that's the starting point is to connect with these these organizations and the other thing I would say you know we live in the information age there is so much information on the Internet as well as it's just a question of trying to get the right information and I'm from the bones of our liaison to the one of the liens I had seven but on the bin size you know I would definitely take those s points ahead on the front side and you will get the standards the relevant standards work through them for your company get the template documents and customize them for your company and and then obviously visit it's going to be some upscaling within your company required as I said earlier not everybody has to know everything and not everybody has to use expensive software or anything but look at your company look at what we need to know what and you have to just start the journey it is a journey and like any journey you just got it no way you're set up the way you want to be and start going you going to incorporate rid so if you want to say something about the lean well yeah if the same employees in lean you have to start the journey and somewhere I suppose it would present information available let me try to point people in the right direction to our website or at our events and so if you are looking to start from scratch and there's a lots of information on the internet there's lots of information with there on lean but if you are starting the journey from a lean perspective you need to look at your Europe your company whether it be smaller or large and then you have to get commitments for people to start to journey again you can start small you can be in small pockets or you can actually grow that within within the company as you go or you can you can deploy leaders in Lane within your company to try and spread the word and to try and bring people up to speed with it so it once you make the initial start the all the information is out there it's all available so once you make initial start there's a lot of people want out there who want to help people to get on the right track and I'm just conscious of time and I'm going to take one more question because there's a lot of time to float in and just to make it aware that we will be answering all the questions if we don't have them in the in the webinar will be following up and emailing the individuals and I'm emailing the the answers to their questions to everyone and so we can follow up with that but I'll just take one Lord as one more here saying in other countries in Europe Ralph and you have more integrated standards that focus on information rather than the process and the question is are they not relevant not absolutely and the information standards that I mentioned in one of those slides are very relevant and in fact they work already ISO standard I think but you need both you know Benham is both the process and the deliverable so if you just focus on the deliverable and don't focus on how to get it here I think best a problem so I think what's what's been really good in the UK is they recognized the international standards and and they've added to that I suppose something around profit so it becomes a much broader package you know that it's to get it get to the deliverable I'm a little quick question for you to give anything they're mine and I'll just just popular up perfect so I'm conscious today I want to just try and wrap up and thank everybody we're sort of running were down to the last couple of minutes on the webinar and so and what I'd like to do is just maybe I'm sorry to cut you off by reference I'm sure if I do put that question after and so I just wanted to thank a from the LCI and the CEO PC CF and CAS we'd like to thank it and personally I'd like to thank you yourself Ralph for forgiving of time to do this and also thank governor for moderating photos from setting up the webinar I think it's gone very well and we're getting lots of that's a good information in from people and at the whole point of having this is to get get information out there to everyone and and that's the whole reason having a community of practices that we can share the information and so I'd ask people to give the one or two minutes to for their survey at the end and then come and please follow love on his LinkedIn and as well as the FBI on our twitter and facebook and our website and and thanks to our green for for calling in and that's how I mean productive afternoon for the rest of the afternoon so thanks again to everybody and we will close a little bit - so again is going to give an opportunity there to fulfilling to give your feedback so we can until you see improve okay thanks everybody Thanks

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Length: 44min 45sec (2685 seconds)

Published: Wed Feb 15 2017