GOD MAY NOT BE NECESSARY
TO EXPLAIN THE UNIVERSE'S EXISTENCE, BUT DOES THAT
MEAN THERE IS NO PLACE FOR SPIRITUALITY
IN SCIENCE? HERE NOW TO HELP US ANSWER
THAT, LAWRENCE KRAUSS, THEORETICAL PHYSICIST AND THE
AUTHOR OF<i> A UNIVERSE</i> <i>FROM NOTHING: WHY THERE IS
SOMETHING RATHER THAN NOTHING.</i> WELCOME BACK
FOR DAY TWO. IT'S GREAT TO
BE BACK. LOVELY TO SEE
YOU AGAIN. FOR THOSE WHO MIGHT
HAVE MISSED YESTERDAY, TAKE A MINUTE OFF
THE TOP AND RECAP THE THREE DIFFERENT
TYPES OF UNIVERSES THAT YOU WERE TALKING
ABOUT YESTERDAY. OKAY, BECAUSE EINSTEIN TOLD
US THAT SPACE CAN BE CURVED, THERE ARE THREE POSSIBLE
UNIVERSES YOU CAN EXIST IN, SO-CALLED OPEN,
CLOSED OR FLAT. A CLOSED UNIVERSE, A UNIVERSE
THAT CURVES IN UPON ITSELF, KIND OF LIKE A TWO-DIMENSIONAL
SURFACE SPHERE AS A CLOSED TWO-DIMENSIONAL UNIVERSE. THEN THERE'S AN OPEN UNIVERSE,
THE TWO-DIMENSIONAL VERSION OF IT HAPPENS TO LOOK
LIKE A SADDLE. AND A FLAT UNIVERSE. A FLAT UNIVERSE IS A
BOUNDARY BETWEEN A CLOSED AND OPEN UNIVERSE, AND IT
HAPPENS TO BE, REMARKABLY, THE UNIVERSE WE LIVE IN. OKAY. I WANT TO MOVE ON AND PICK
UP, AS THE INTRO SUGGESTED, ON THE SUBJECT I SUSPECT
YOU GET MORE MAIL ABOUT THAN ANYTHING ELSE. YEAH. AND THAT IS WHETHER OR NOT
SCIENCE AND RELIGION CAN COEXIST? DOES OUR CURRENT
UNDERSTANDING OF THE COSMOS, IN YOUR VIEW,
MAKE GOD UNNECESSARY? YOU GOT IT
EXACTLY RIGHT. IT MAKES GOD
UNNECESSARY. I CAN'T PROVE THAT
GOD DOESN'T EXIST. THAT'S IMPOSSIBLE
TO DO. I CAN'T PROVE WE WERE
HERE THREE SECONDS AGO. MAYBE WE WERE CREATED
TWO SECONDS AGO WITH THE MEMORIES OF THE DELIGHTFUL
INTERVIEW WE HAD YESTERDAY. BUT WHAT I CAN SAY IS THAT
APPARENTLY, AS FAR AS WE CAN SEE, IT'S PLAUSIBLE
THAT THE UNIVERSE AROSE WITHOUT ANY NEED FOR ANY
SUPERNATURAL ENTITY. IT'S KIND OF LIKE - WHAT'S
HAPPENED IN THE LAST 40 YEARS IN COSMOLOGY, WHICH IS THE
REASON I WROTE THE BOOK, IS KIND OF LIKE WHAT HAPPENED
IN BIOLOGY 150 YEARS AGO. BEFORE DARWIN,
LIFE WAS A MIRACLE. EVERY FORM OF LIFE WAS
SPECIALLY CREATED FOR ITS ENVIRONMENT, AND IT
WAS BEAUTIFULLY DESIGNED TO EXIST THAT WAY. WHAT DARWIN SHOWED WAS
THAT IT WAS PLAUSIBLE, BASED ON HIS OBSERVATIONS,
THAT ALL LIFEFORMS EVOLVED FROM A SINGLE FORM OF LIFE,
AND NATURAL SELECTION COULD PRODUCE THE INCREDIBLE
DIVERSITY OF LIFE WITH THE APPEARANCE
OF DESIGN. AND HE JUST SHOWED
IT WAS PLAUSIBLE. HE DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT DNA;
HE DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT GENETICS IN DETAIL. IT WAS PLAUSIBLE BASED
ON ALL THE EVIDENCE AVAILABLE TO HIM
AT THE TIME. AND HE WROTE A BEAUTIFUL
BOOK BASED ON THAT. AND SO NOW, OF COURSE, WE'VE
LEARNED OVER 150 YEARS THAT THAT PLAUSIBILITY
IS IN FACT TRUE. THAT WE UNDERSTAND
GENETICS. WE NOW KNOW
EVOLUTION IS A FACT. IN FACT, IT'S THE FOUNDATION
OF MODERN BIOLOGY. I LIKE TO SAY THAT BECAUSE
IN MY COUNTRY THERE'S TOO MANY PEOPLE WHO SEEM TO
THINK THERE'S SOME THEORY. THEY CALL IT A
THEORY. YEAH. JUST LIKE NOTHING, THE WORD
THEORY MEANS SOMETHING DIFFERENT IN SCIENCE. AND IT MEANS SOMETHING THAT'S
BEEN VERY WELL TESTED. QUANTUM THEORY, YOU KNOW,
THE THEORY OF GRAVITY, I MEAN, YOU KNOW
GRAVITY IS THERE. THE FACT IT'S A THEORY MEANS
WE'VE TESTED THESE IDEAS OVER AND OVER AGAIN. BUT WHAT DARWIN DID WAS
SHOW YOU DON'T NEED GOD TO CREATE ALL THE
DIFFERENT SPECIES. IT CAN HAPPEN
WITHOUT GOD. NOW, THE BIG QUESTION, OF
COURSE, HE GOT TO THE FIRST LIFEFORM AND HE DIDN'T
DESCRIBE THE ORIGIN OF LIFE. HE JUST DESCRIBED THE
ORIGIN OF SPECIES. AND WE STILL DON'T KNOW
THE ORIGIN OF LIFE. BUT IT'S QUITE PLAUSIBLE,
BASED ON EVERYTHING WE KNOW, THAT CHEMISTRY CAN
TURN TO BIOLOGY. AND I THINK MOST
SCIENTISTS WOULD ARGUE, YOU DON'T NEED
ANYTHING SUPERNATURAL TO TURN CHEMISTRY
INTO BIOLOGY. AND I SUSPECT IN THE
NEXT DECADE OR SO WE'LL UNDER THAT
PROCESS. WE'RE CLOSE. THE INSTITUTE I RUN HAS JUST HAD
A MEETING ON THE ORIGIN OF LIFE, AND WE'RE GETTING
CLOSER AND CLOSER. WHAT THE NEXT STAGE, OF
COURSE, AND THE LAST BASTION OF GOD FOR MANY PEOPLE WAS
LOOK, OKAY, YOU MIGHT NOT NEED GOD TO CREATE SPECIES
OR LIFE, BUT YOU NEED GOD TO CREATE THE UNIVERSE
BECAUSE ALL THESE GALAXIES ARE OUT THERE, AND
YOU NEED SOMETHING TO MAKE SOMETHING
FROM NOTHING. AND WHAT WE'VE
DISCOVERED, IS THAT IT'S NOT NECESSARILY SO. THAT, IN FACT, GIVEN
THE LAWS OF PHYSICS AS WE UNDERSTAND THEM,
IT'S QUITE PLAUSIBLE, AND IN FACT, OUR UNIVERSE
HAS THE CHARACTERISTICS OF A UNIVERSE IF YOU WERE
GOING TO CREATE A UNIVERSE FROM NOTHING, IT WOULD HAVE
THE CHARACTERISTICS OF THE UNIVERSE
WE LIVE IN. WE'RE AT THE SAME STAGE
DARWIN WAS AT 150 YEARS AGO. WE CAN SHOW
IT'S PLAUSIBLE. WE DON'T KNOW THE LAWS OF
PHYSICS RIGHT BACK TO T EQUALS ZERO, I WANT
TO MAKE THAT CLEAR. BUT IT'S PLAUSIBLE. AND THAT TO ME IS WORTH
CELEBRATING BECAUSE IT MAKES GOD MORE
IRRELEVANT. AND I THINK THAT'S
A GREAT THING. WHY? BECAUSE FIRST OF ALL, IT'S
AMAZING IF WE CAN UNDERSTAND HOW WE GOT HERE. AND I ALSO THINK IT MAKES
THE UNIVERSE AND OUR LIVES MUCH MORE PRECIOUS IF THERE
ISN'T SOME COSMIC DICTATOR IN THE SKY THAT I SHOULD
SAY - LOOK, MY OWN FEELING THAT NOT HAVING A GOD IS A
GOOD THING IS COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT TO THE FACT
WE'VE BEEN DRIVEN TO THIS POSSIBILITY BY PHYSICS. BUT I FIND THAT POSSIBILITY
VERY EXCITING BECAUSE I THINK IT MAKES THE MEANING IN
OUR LIVES MUCH MORE EXCITING. IF THE ONLY MEANING IN OUR
LIVES IS THE MEANING WE CREATE, THEN IT'S MUCH MORE
PRECIOUS. OUR BRIEF TIME ON EARTH
IS MUCH MORE PRECIOUS. AND WE SHOULD USE THOSE
BRAINS THAT HAVE EVOLVED TO ENJOY AND LEARN
ABOUT THE UNIVERSE. IT MAKES EVERYTHING WE DO
HAVE MORE MEANING THAN IF IT'S DETERMINED BY SOME
SADDAM HUSSEIN IN THE SKY. EW, OUCH, OUCH,
OKAY, OKAY. I'LL THINK
ABOUT THAT. I MEAN, AT LEAST IN THE
WORLD'S MAJOR RELIGIONS - I GOT THAT FROM MY FRIEND
CHRISTOPHER HITCHENS. LOOK, SADDAM HUSSEIN JUST
TORTURED PEOPLE WHILE THEY WERE ALIVE, BUT, YOU KNOW,
IF YOU TORTURE THEM FOR ALL ETERNITY, THAT'S MUCH
WORSE, DON'T YOU THINK? I'M MOVING RIGHT
ALONG. BUT I WONDER IF THERE'S NOT
SOME SPIRITUAL/PHYSICAL INTERSECTION WHEN
IT COMES TO FAITH. YOU NEED TO HAVE, YOU, AS A
MAN WHO DOESN'T BELIEVE IN GOD I DON'T USE THE
WORD BELIEF. WHO HAS YET TO SEE PROOF
OF THE EXISTENCE OF GOD, OR PUT IT HOWEVER
YOU WANT. BUT YOU HAVE FAITH IN YOUR
ABILITY AND IN SCIENCE'S ABILITY TO UNCOVER THE GREAT
MYSTERIES OF THE WORLD AS WE GO FORWARD, AND
THAT WILL HAPPEN, IN THE SAME WAY THE
RELIGIOUS PERSON HAS FAITH THAT THERE'S SOMETHING
BIGGER THAN US HERE. I DISAGREE. NO? OF COURSE I HAVE FAITH
THAT SCIENCE WORKS, BUT MY FAITH IS VINDICATED
BY EXPERIMENT. IF SCIENCE STOPS WORKING,
THEN I'LL STOP HAVING FAITH. I MEAN, THE GREAT
THING ABOUT SCIENCE IS YOUR FAITH IS
SHAKEABLE. I MAY HAVE FAITH THAT SOME IDEA
I'VE COME UP WITH IS CORRECT, BUT THE MINUTE IT'S PROVED
WRONG BY OBSERVATION, I THROW IT OUT LIKE
YESTERDAY'S NEWSPAPER. ARE YOU FROM
NEW YORK? I WAS BORN IN NEW YORK,
AS A MATTER OF FACT. SO IF NOT FOR GOD, HOW DO
YOU EXPLAIN THE '69 METS? [laughing] ACCIDENTS HAPPEN
ALL THE TIME. RICHARD FEYNMAN
USED TO SAY THAT. THE EASIEST PEOPLE TO
FOOL ARE OURSELVES. IN FACT, THAT'S
VERY IMPORTANT. WE ALL THINK WHAT HAPPENS
TO US IS SIGNIFICANT. AND WE ASCRIBE SIGNIFICANCE,
AND OFTEN, THEREFORE, DIVINE SIGNIFICANCE
TO RANDOM EVENTS. YOU KNOW FEYNMAN USED TO GO
AROUND TO PEOPLE AND SAY, YOU WON'T BELIEVE WHAT
HAPPENED TO ME TODAY. YOU WON'T BELIEVE WHAT
HAPPENED TO ME TODAY. AND PEOPLE WOULD
SAY WHAT? AND HE'D SAY
ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. BECAUSE YOU MIGHT HAVE A
MILLION CRAZY DREAMS, AND THEN ONE NIGHT YOU DREAM
YOUR SISTER'S LEG IS BROKEN AND THE NEXT DAY SHE BREAKS
HER ARM, AND YOU JUST GO, WOW, COSMIC. BUT YOU JUST FORGET
IT'S AN ACCIDENT. SO ACCIDENTS HAPPEN, AND WE
HAVE TO BE VERY, VERY CAREFUL NOT TO ASCRIBE
SIGNIFICANCE TO THINGS THAT ARE JUST
COINCIDENCES. IT MAY MAKE YOU SAD, BUT
AS I'VE SAID BEFORE, THE UNIVERSE DOESN'T
EXIST TO MAKE YOU HAPPY. WHY DOES IT
EXIST? IF NOT TO MAKE US HAPPY,
WHY DOES IT EXIST? WE'VE TALKED
ABOUT THIS BEFORE. "WHY" QUESTIONS
AREN'T GOOD ONES. RIGHT. I ONLY CONCERN MYSELF
WITH HOW IT EXISTS. AND THE FACT THAT IT EXISTS
IS WORTH CELEBRATING BECAUSE IF IT WASN'T, WE
COULDN'T HAVE THIS CONVERSATION. FAIR ENOUGH. I WANT TO GO TO CONTROL
ROOM, IF I CAN, THE STUART FIRESTEIN
QUOTE FROM HIS BOOK, <i>IGNORANCE: HOW IT
DRIVES SCIENCE.</i> I WANT TO READ THIS
TO YOU, LAWRENCE, AND GET YOUR COMMENT
ON IT. LET'S PULL THIS APART
A LITTLE BIT HERE. ARE YOU COMFORTABLE WITH
THE NOTION OF UNCERTAINTY? ABSOLUTELY. YOU HAVE TO BE BECAUSE SCIENCE
IS BASED ON UNCERTAINTY. A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK IT'S
A WEAKNESS OF SCIENCE, BUT IT'S ACTUALLY A STRENGTH
BECAUSE IT'S PROBABLY THE ONLY AREA OF
HUMAN ACTIVITY WHERE WE CAN QUANTIFY
OUR UNCERTAINTY. YOU DEAL WITH POLITICIANS A
LOT, AND CLAIMING TO KNOW THINGS THAT YOU DON'T KNOW IS A REAL
PROBLEM IN PUBLIC POLICY. AND IN SCIENCE, WE ARE
CLEAR ABOUT WHAT WE KNOW. AND WE'RE ALSO EQUALLY CLEAR
ABOUT WHAT WE DON'T KNOW. AND WHAT WE DON'T KNOW
IS WHAT DRIVES US. PEOPLE THINK SCIENTISTS GO
IN AND SAY OH, I'M AFRAID OF THE UNKNOWN, OR I DON'T
WANT TO BE PROVED WRONG. BUT IN FACT, PROVING
OTHERS WRONG IS THE WAY TO BECOME FAMOUS
IN SCIENCE. IT'S WHAT YOU TRY TO DO EVERY
DAY WHEN YOU GO INTO WORK, YOU TRY TO PROVE ALL
YOUR COLLEAGUES WRONG. THE FACT THAT WE CAN QUANTIFY
THE LEVEL OF OUR KNOWLEDGE AND KNOW THERE ARE SOME THINGS
WE DON'T KNOW DRIVES US. IT'S THAT UNCERTAINTY THAT
GETS ME GOING INTO WORK EVERY DAY: THE MYSTERIES. DO YOU KNOW WHY YOU WANT TO
KNOW WHAT YOU WANT TO KNOW ABOUT WHAT YOU DON'T KNOW? THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION. I'LL TRY TO
UNDERSTAND THAT ONE. I THINK WE'RE
HARD WIRED. I THINK HUMANS ARE
HARD WIRED TO WANT TO SOLVE PUZZLES. THEY'RE ALSO HARD WIRED
TO PROBABLY BELIEVE IN A DIVINE ENTITY. RELIGION HAS BEEN UBIQUITOUS
THROUGHOUT HUMAN HISTORY. THE FACT WE'RE HARD
WIRED TO DO THINGS IS JUST THE WAY IT IS. I THINK WE WANT TO SOLVE
PUZZLES - PROBABLY WE'RE HARD WIRED TO DO THAT BY
EVOLUTION TO SURVIVE. BUT I THINK EVERYONE
GETS SOME SATISFACTION OUT OF SOLVING A PUZZLE. AND THAT'S WHAT
SCIENCE IS. IT'S SOLVING PUZZLES. WE DO A HUGE DISSERVICE TO
STUDENTS BY TELLING THEM THAT SCIENCE IS A BODY OF
FACTS, AS THAT QUOTE SAID, IT'S NOT JUST A SET OF
FACTS, THAT'S BORING. IT'S A WAY OF
SOLVING PUZZLES. IT'S A PROCESS. AND THAT PROCESS
LEADS US FURTHER. AND IT'S TRUE THAT WE MAY
NEVER GET TO AN ULTIMATE THEORY OF EVERYTHING. I DISAGREE WITH THE QUOTE IN
THE SENSE I DON'T KNOW FOR SURE THAT THE WELL
DOESN'T HAVE AN END. I DON'T KNOW THAT WE WON'T
HAVE A THEORY OF EVERYTHING, BUT IT DOESN'T REALLY
MATTER BECAUSE LEARNING, SOLVING THOSE PUZZLES,
AND EFFACING MYSTERIES IS WHAT MAKES LIFE
WORTH LIVING. AND I THINK IT'S TRUE
NOT JUST FOR SCIENCE, I THINK IT'S TRUE IN ALL
ASPECTS OF HUMAN ACTIVITY. I REMEMBER GOING TO -
IN YOUR HOMETOWN, IS IT St. PATRICK'S - WHERE TIMOTHY
DOLAN IS THE CARDINAL? I THINK SO. IT IS MY HOMETOWN, BUT I
ACTUALLY GREW UP IN CANADA, I'M HAPPY TO SAY. AND I REMEMBER GOING
TO CELEBRATE MASS ONE SUNDAY MORNING. OKAY. AND THIS ISSUE CAME UP. AND CARDINAL DOLAN SAID,
IT IS YOUR SHORTCOMING THAT THERE IS NO ROOM
FOR FAITH IN YOUR LIFE BECAUSE THAT MAKES - THAT WILL
INEVITABLY MAKE YOUR LIFE LESS, AND THEN NAME YOUR
ADJECTIVES, LESS RICH, LESS INTERESTING, LESS,
ET CETERA, ET CETERA. ISN'T THAT POMPOUS? YOU KNOW, I FIND CARDINALS
TEND TO BE POMPOUS, AND USUALLY WRONG,
FROM MY EXPERIENCE. LOOK, FAITH FOR SOME PEOPLE
ENRICHES THEIR LIVES, PROVIDES THEM SOLACE AND
COMFORT, BUT TO ARGUE THAT IF YOU'RE WILLING YOU ACCEPT
THE UNIVERSE FOR WHAT IT IS, THAT SOMEHOW THAT
DIMINISHES YOU IS REALLY POMPOUS NONSENSE, I THINK. I GET GREAT SPIRITUAL
FULFILLMENT OUT OF THE UNIVERSE. SPIRITUAL? YEAH. I GET AWE AND WONDER, AND
AMAZEMENT, AND I'M UPLIFTED. I FEEL ONE WITH THE
COSMOS BY LOOKING AT A HUBBLE SPACE
TELESCOPE PICTURE. AND AS I OFTEN SAID, THAT
KIND OF SPIRITUALITY IS BETTER THAN THE SPIRITUALITY
OF RELIGION BECAUSE IT'S TRUE. IT'S INTERESTING, THOUGH,
THAT YOU CAN USE THE WORD SPIRITUAL AND, YOU KNOW,
PHYSICS, COSMOLOGY, WHATEVER, IN THE
SAME SENTENCE. I REALLY GET UPSET WHEN
PEOPLE SAY SCIENCE TAKES- YES- THEY THINK IT
DOESN'T MESH. AND THEY SAY SCIENCE DEMEANS
OUR EXISTENCE, BUT IT DOESN'T. AGAIN, TO TURN TO FEYNMAN,
HE SAID, KNOWING HOW A RAINBOW WORKS DOESN'T MAKE
IT ANY LESS WONDERFUL, IT MAKES IT MORE
WONDERFUL. A RAINBOW IS A BEAUTIFUL
THING, BUT LEARNING ABOUT THE PHYSICS BEHIND IT
MAKES IT MORE BEAUTIFUL. SCIENCE MAKES THE WORLD A
MORE FASCINATING PLACE. ONE THAT IS MORE AMAZING, AND
ONE MORE WORTH LIVING IN. SO I AM OFFENDED WHEN PEOPLE
SAY SCIENCE SOMEHOW TAKES OUT THE SPIRITUALITY
OF THE EXISTENCE. IT ENHANCES THAT EXISTENCE
IN A WAY WHICH, AS I SAY, IS MUCH MORE INTERESTING THAN
BOOKS WRITTEN BY IRON AGE PEASANTS WHO DIDN'T EVEN KNOW
THE EARTH ORBITED THE SUN. YOU MENTIONED FEYNMAN,
SHOULD WE HEAR FROM HIM? I LOVE HEARING FROM
HIM, SURE, SURE. WE'VE GOT A CLIP
STANDING BY. THIS IS OFF YOUTUBE. GO AHEAD. THIS IS RICHARD FEYNMAN,
GO AHEAD, PLEASE. <i>I HAVE A FRIEND WHO IS AN
ARTIST AND HAS SOMETIMES</i> <i>TAKEN A VIEW WHICH I DON'T
AGREE WITH VERY WELL.</i> <i>YOU HOLD UP A FLOWER AND SAY,
LOOK HOW BEAUTIFUL IT IS.</i> <i>AND I'LL AGREE.</i> <i>HE SAYS, YOU SEE I, AS AN
ARTIST, CAN SEE HOW</i> BEAUTIFUL <i>THIS IS, BUT YOU AS A
SCIENTIST TAKE THIS ALL APART</i> <i>AND IT BECOMES A
DULL THING.</i> <i>AND I THINK HE'S
KIND OF NUTTY.</i> <i>FIRST OF ALL, THE BEAUTY
THAT HE SEES IS AVAILABLE</i> <i>TO OTHER PEOPLE
AND TO ME, TOO.</i> <i>I BELIEVE, ALTHOUGH I MAY
NOT BE QUITE AS REFINED</i> <i>AESTHETICALLY AS HE IS,
I CAN APPRECIATE</i> <i>THE BEAUTY IN A FLOWER.</i> <i>AT THE SAME TIME, I SEE
MUCH MORE ABOUT THE FLOWER</i> <i>THAN HE SEES.</i> <i>I CAN IMAGINE THE
CELLS IN THERE.</i> <i>THE COMPLICATED ACTIONS INSIDE
WHICH ALSO HAVE A BEAUTY.</i> <i>IT'S NOT JUST BEAUTY
AT THIS DIMENSIONAL</i> <i>ONE CENTIMETRE, THERE'S ALSO
BEAUTY AT SMALLER DIMENSIONS,</i> <i>THE INNER STRUCTURE,
ALSO THE PROCESSES.</i> <i>THE FACT THAT THE COLOURS IN
THE FLOWER EVOLVED</i> <i>IN ORDER TO ATTRACT INSECTS TO
POLLINATE IT IS INTERESTING.</i> <i>IT MEANS INSECTS
CAN SEE THE COLOUR.</i> SO YOU CAN SEE, DESPITE YOUR
PHYSICIST'S BACKGROUND, THE BEAUTY OF THOSE FLOWERS,
AND NIAGARA FALLS AND ALL OF THAT SUPERIOR
TO AN ARTIST? I'M ASKING. YEAH, SCIENCE CAN BECAUSE WE
CAN SEE THE FLOWER IN LOTS MORE COLOURS THAN WE
CAN WITH OUR EYES. WE CAN SEE IT
IN X-RAYS. WE CAN SEE IT IN
GAMMA RAYS. WHAT SCIENCE HAS DONE IS OPENED
NEW WINDOWS ON THE UNIVERSE. AND HOW CAN THAT
BE A BAD THING? OPENING NEW WINDOWS ALLOWS
THE ARTISTIC SPIRIT IN EVERYONE TO
THRIVE MORE. SCIENCE, I MAINTAIN, IS LIKE
ART AND LITERATURE AND MUSIC. IT GIVES US A NEW
PERSPECTIVE OF OUR PLACE IN THE COSMOS, AND
ALLOWS NEW, FERTILE SOIL FOR OUR IMAGINATIONS
TO GROW. CAN YOU GIVE ME A
PERSONAL EXAMPLE OF THAT WHEN YOU SAW SOMETHING
IN SCIENCE AND YOU HAD, WHAT THE REST OF US MIGHT
CALL A KIND OF AN EMOTIONAL, SPIRITUAL, ARTISTIC
REACTION? AS I SAY, EVERY TIME I LOOK AT A
HUBBLE SPACE TELESCOPE PICTURE AND I SEE HUNDREDS OF GALAXIES
TEN BILLION LIGHT YEARS AWAY, AND I THINK THE LIGHT TOOK TEN
BILLION YEARS TO GET TO ME, SO THAT MEANS THAT THE STARS
THAT ARE IN THAT PICTURE PROBABLY DON'T EVEN
EXIST ANYMORE, AND THE CIVILIZATIONS
AROUND THOSE STARS, IF THERE WERE ANY,
DON'T EXIST ANYMORE. I FIND THAT GROUND
FOR MY IMAGINATION. PROBABLY FOR ME, THE FACT
THAT EMPTY SPACE HAS ENERGY, WHICH I'M PLEASED
TO SAY WAS SOMETHING ACTUALLY PROPOSED BEFORE
IT WAS OBSERVED, WAS SO WILD AND CRAZY -
EVEN WHEN I PROPOSED IT, I DIDN'T BELIEVE
IT WAS TRUE. THEN I DISCOVERED
IT ACTUALLY WAS. THAT'S WHEN THE
UNIVERSE SURPRISES YOU. AND I JUST FIND THAT'S
WHAT MAKES WORTH GETTING UP EVERY DAY. WORTH GETTING UP FOR. OKAY. I'M GOING TO READ A
COUPLE OF QUOTES NOW. HERE'S THE FIRST. CARL SAGAN. YOU'VE HEARD OF HIM. YES, I HAVE.
I KNEW HIM. AND THEN I'M GOING
TO BUTTRESS THAT WITH BRITISH PHILOSOPHER
ALAN WATTS, WHO ONCE SAID: DOES THAT SPEAK
TO YOU? THE FIRST ONE SPEAKS TO
ME MORE THAN THE SECOND, TO TELL YOU THE
TRUTH. OKAY. OBVIOUSLY, I AGREE WITH
WHAT CARL SAGAN SAID. IT'S A BEAUTIFUL
BOOK IT CAME FROM. THE SECOND, LOOK,
IT'S A NICE IDEA. I FIND IT IS LITTLE
NEW AGEY FOR ME. IT GIVES A SENSE SOMEHOW - WE<i>
ARE</i> CONNECTED TO THE UNIVERSE, BUT NOT IN SUCH AN
ABSTRACT SENSE. WE'RE CONNECTED TO THE
UNIVERSE BY OUR ATOMS. EVERY ATOM IN OUR BODY WAS
ONCE INSIDE AN EXPLODING STAR. WE TALKED ABOUT
EXPLODING STARS BEFORE. EVERY ATOM IN OUR BODY WAS
INSIDE A STAR THAT EXPLODED. THE ATOMS IN YOUR LEFT HAND
MIGHT HAVE BEEN INSIDE A DIFFERENT STAR THAN YOUR
RIGHT HAND BECAUSE THE ELEMENTS THAT MAKE YOU UP -
THE CARBON, THE NITROGEN, THE OXYGEN - THEY WEREN'T
MADE IN THE BIG BANG. THE ONLY ELEMENTS THAT WERE
MADE IN THE BIG BANG WERE HYDROGEN, HELIUM, AND A
LITTLE BIT OF LITHIUM. AND I'M ASSUMING LITHIUM
ISN'T IMPORTANT TO YOU, BUT CARBON, NITROGEN
AND OXYGEN ARE, AND THE ONLY PLACES THOSE ARE
MADE ARE IN THE CORES OF STARS. SO WE ARE LITERALLY
STARDUST. WE ARE STARS,
AND THEY ARE US. AND THAT, OF COURSE,
SPEAKS TO WHAT THAT QUOTE WAS ABOUT BUT IN A
REAL, DEFINITE WAY. THAT'S WHAT I MEAN BY THE
FACT THE SCIENCE ADDS TO THOSE VAGUE
PHILOSOPHICAL MEANDERINGS. IT TELLS US THINGS THAT
ARE WORTH SITTING BACK AND REFLECTING ABOUT. DOES IT FEEL AS IF, WITH
THAT SECOND QUOTE, I GUESS, IN PARTICULAR, THAT SCIENCE
HAS DRIFTED SO MUCH IT'S ALMOST INTERSECTED
WITH EASTERN PHILOSOPHY? WELL, IN A VAGUE WAY. YOU KNOW, I ONCE WROTE A
BOOK ABOUT THE ORIGIN OF DARK MATTER, AND I WENT
BACK TO THE RIG VEDA, AND YEAH, THERE'S SOME VAGUE
CONNECTION, BUT I REALLY THINK IT'S DANGEROUS TO
OVERPLAY THAT CONNECTION. THERE ARE WORDS IN THOSE
EASTERN MYSTICISMS, SOME OF THOSE WORDS CONNECT
TO WHAT WE KNOW TODAY. BUT IN NO SENSE DID THEY
HAVE THAT KNOWLEDGE. IN NO SENSE DID THEY
UNDERSTAND THAT THE EARTH EVEN ORBITED THE SUN. SO WHEN PEOPLE SAY, YOU
KNOW, 5,000 YEARS AGO PEOPLE REALLY UNDERSTOOD
WHAT WE KNOW NOW, WE'RE JUST REDISCOVERING
THAT ANCIENT WISDOM, THAT'S GARBAGE. THAT'S GARBAGE. WE ARE DISCOVERING THINGS
ABOUT THE UNIVERSE ALL THE TIME BECAUSE
WE'RE OBSERVING IT. THE ONLY WAY WE CAN LEARN
THINGS IS NOT PEERING INTO OUR OWN MINDS,
BUT PEERING OUTWARD TO LEARN FROM
THE UNIVERSE. AND WHEN WE STOP LOOKING,
AND STOP ASKING QUESTIONS, WE'LL STOP LEARNING. AND THAT'S THE END. WE'RE NOT QUITE AT THE
END YET, BUT LET ME SEE IF WE CAN COME FULL
CIRCLE HERE. WOULD IT BE IMPORTANT
TO YOU TO BE ABLE TO PROVE GOD DOES
NOT EXIST? NO, I MEAN, FIRST OF ALL,
I KNOW IT'S UNPROVABLE BECAUSE GOD IS A CONCEPT
THAT'S NOT FALSIFIABLE. IT'S A SLIPPERY CONCEPT. YOU KNOW, A LOT OF PEOPLE
CALL IT GOD OF THE GAPS. THEY KEEP PUTTING GODS, YOU
KNOW, IT USED TO BE THE ORIGIN OF THE SPECIES,
WELL IT GOT RID OF THERE. THEY KEEP PUTTING
GOD IN THE PLACES WE HAVEN'T LEARNED
ABOUT YET. BUT THE PROBLEM WITH THAT
GOD-OF-THE-GAPS ARGUMENT IS WHEN WE FILL THE GAPS,
WHERE DOES GOD GO? SO FOR ME, GOD HAS BECOME SO
IRRELEVANT THAT I DON'T CARE. I MEAN, GOD IS NEVER
DISCUSSED IN PHYSICS' MEETINGS BECAUSE WE UNDERSTAND
HOW THE UNIVERSE WORKS AT MANY LEVELS. THERE'S MANY LEVELS
WE DON'T UNDERSTAND. BUT THE FACT WE CAN LOOK
BACK TO THE EARLIEST MOMENTS OF THE BIG BANG AND
BEGIN TO UNDERSTAND THAT, AND TO THE FAR FUTURE, AND TO
THE FAR DEPTHS OF THE UNIVERSE WITHOUT NEEDING ANY
SUPERNATURAL BEING MEANS THAT GOD
IS IRRELEVANT. AS THE PHYSICIST STEPHEN
WEINBERG, WHO ALSO I KNOW DOESN'T HAPPEN TO BELIEVE
IN GOD, HAS SAID, YOU KNOW, MOST PHYSICISTS DON'T THINK
ABOUT GOD ENOUGH TO KNOW IF THEY EVEN BELIEVE IN HIM,
BECAUSE GOD'S IRRELEVANT. AND AS I TRIED TO SHOW IN
MY BOOK, GOD<i> IS</i> IRRELEVANT. SO IT'S NOT IMPORTANT TO ME
TO PROVE THAT GOD DOESN'T EXIST, IT'S IMPORTANT TO ME
TO CELEBRATE THE UNIVERSE WE ACTUALLY LIVE IN. AND IF THERE'S A
GOD, I DON'T CARE. THE BEAUTY OF THE UNIVERSE
IS WHAT'S WORTH CELEBRATING. AND GETTING PEOPLE TO
REALIZE THEY NEED TO ACCEPT THE UNIVERSE FOR WHAT IT IS
RATHER THAN IMPOSING THEIR OWN WISHES AND
DESIRES UPON THE UNIVERSE. BECAUSE WHEN YOU DO THAT,
YOU MAKE BAD DECISIONS. AND I THINK THAT'S THE
REAL PROBLEM FOR ME IN SOME RELIGIOUS VIEWS IS
THAT YOU IMPOSE YOUR DESIRES AND HOPES UPON THE
UNIVERSE, AND THEN YOU END UP WITH
NONSENSE. YOU END UP SAYING
HOMOSEXUALITY IS BAD WHEN, IN FACT, THERE'S
EVERY BIT OF EVIDENCE THAT HOMOSEXUALITY IS
PERFECTLY NORMAL AND NATURAL IN MANY SPECIES, NOT
JUST IN HUMANS. SO WHEN YOU IMPOSE YOUR
MORALITY BASED ON, AGAIN, ON A MORALITY OF ANCIENT,
IRON AGE PEOPLE WHO REALLY DIDN'T KNOW ANYTHING
ABOUT THE UNIVERSE, YOU'RE LIMITING YOURSELF, AND
YOU'RE LIMITING YOUR ACTIONS AND YOUR POLICIES. AND THAT'S ONE OF THE
REASONS WHY I WANT POLICIES TO BE BASED ON
EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE. I APPRECIATE THAT. BUT I WONDER, AS A GUY WHO
SPENDS SO MUCH OF HIS LIFE TRYING TO SOLVE THE
MYSTERIES OF THE UNIVERSE, THAT'S THE BIGGEST
MYSTERY THERE IS, FOR A LOT OF
PEOPLE, ANYWAY. NO, TO ME, THE BIGGEST
MYSTERY IS HOW DID THE UNIVERSE COME INTO BEING. AND SOME PEOPLE LIKE TO
ANSWER THAT BY SAYING- IT'S A COPOUT. GOD IS A COPOUT. WE DON'T KNOW;
IT'S GOD. I THINK, FOR MOST
PEOPLE, THEY SAY, I CAN'T COMPREHEND
THIS. THERE MUST BE SOMETHING
I DON'T UNDERSTAND, AND I'M GOING TO IMPOSE
AN INTELLIGENCE ON IT. AND THAT MAY BE TRUE,
BUT IT'S NOT REQUIRED. THERE ARE THINGS
WE DON'T UNDERSTAND. THERE MAY BE THINGS WE
WILL NEVER COMPREHEND, BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THERE'S
AN INTELLIGENCE BEHIND IT. THERE WERE LOTS OF
THINGS, AS YOU POINTED OUT, 100 YEARS AGO, THERE
WERE LOTS OF THINGS WE DIDN'T COMPREHEND AND
WE THOUGHT MIGHT NEVER BE COMPREHENDED, AND IT'S
AMAZING THAT SOME OF THEM WE COMPREHEND NOW. IT MAKES THE JOURNEY
WORTH CARRYING ON. IN OUR LAST FEW MINUTES HERE,
I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THE GUY WHO WROTE THE
AFTERWORD FOR YOUR BOOK. OKAY. BECAUSE RICHARD DAWKINS, WHO
HAS BEEN IN THE STUDIO BEFORE, AND WE HAD AN INTERESTING
MOMENT TOGETHER, I MUST SAY, HE KIND OF FESSES UP THAT
HE DIDN'T LIKE YOU VERY MUCH WHEN HE FIRST
ENCOUNTERED YOU. [chuckling] AND YET NOW, HERE HE IS, WRITING
THE AFTERWORD TO YOUR BOOK. SO SOMEWHERE ALONG THE WAY
YOU GUYS KISSED AND MADE UP? YEAH, WE'VE BECOME
GOOD FRIENDS. WHAT'S THE
STORY THERE? AND DONE A SERIES OF EVENTS
AROUND THE WORLD TOGETHER. WELL, YOU KNOW,
LOOK, I THINK... I ASKED RICHARD DAWKINS IN
FACT, AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS NEW MOVIE WE JUST MADE,
IS YOUR GOAL TO EXPLAIN SCIENCE, OR TO DESTROY RELIGION? AND AS HE WOULD SAY,
THEY GO HAND IN HAND. BUT MY FIRST QUESTION TO HIM
WAS LOOK, IF YOU WANT PEOPLE TO LISTEN TO YOU, IT'S NOT
ALWAYS THE BEST IDEA TO GO UP TO THEM
AND SAY, YOU KNOW WHAT, EVERYTHING YOU BELIEVE IS WRONG
AND YOU'RE REALLY STUPID. IT'S NOT USUALLY A
GOOD OPENING LINE. IT'S HIS M.O. WELL, TO SOME
EXTENT IT IS. AND TO SOME EXTENT,
I APPRECIATE IT BECAUSE CONSCIOUSNESS RAISING
IS AN IMPORTANT THING, AND HE DOES THAT
VERY WELL. BUT I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT
THAT PEOPLE OF FAITH REALIZE THAT SCIENCE IS NOT
A THREAT TO FAITH. IT'S A THREAT TO THEIR FAITH
IF THEY THINK THE EARTH IS 6,000 YEARS OLD. IF THEY NEED THE EARTH TO BE
6,000 YEARS OLD TO BELIEVE IN GOD, GIVE UP GOD. BECAUSE IT AIN'T, OKAY? BUT AS I TRIED TO POINT
OUT, SCIENCE GOES ALONG ABOUT ITS BUSINESS INDEPENDENT
OF THE EXISTENCE OF GOD. AND EVOLUTION HAPPENED WHETHER
OR NOT YOU BELIEVE IN GOD. THE BIG BANG HAPPENED WHETHER
OR NOT YOU BELIEVE IN GOD. AND SO THEREFORE, YOUR
BELIEFS IN GOD SHOULDN'T RELY ON THINGS WHICH
DISAGREE WITH THE EVIDENCE OF EMPIRICAL REALITY. BUT IF YOU, FOR YOUR DAILY
EXISTENCE, FIND A NEED FOR SOME PURPOSE TO THE
UNIVERSE, AS LONG AS THAT NEED DOESN'T CONFLICT WITH
THE EVIDENCE OF REALITY, THEN I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH
YOUR NEED TO HAVE A FAITH. AND I THINK IN SOME SENSE,
MAYBE THAT'S WHERE RICHARD AND I DIFFER,
ALTHOUGH I DON'T THINK WE REALLY DIFFER
THAT MUCH. BECAUSE WHAT WE BOTH AGREE
ABOUT IS THAT ORGANIZED RELIGION, ON THE WHOLE,
HAS BEEN BAD FOR HUMANITY. AGAIN, AS STEVE WEINBERG HAS
SAID, THERE ARE GOOD PEOPLE, AND THERE ARE BAD
PEOPLE. GOOD PEOPLE DO GOOD THINGS,
BAD PEOPLE DO BAD THINGS, WHEN GOOD PEOPLE DO BAD
THINGS, IT'S RELIGION. WHEN YOU LOOK AROUND THE
WORLD TODAY AND YOU SEE WHAT IS DONE QUOTE/UNQUOTE
IN THE NAME OF RELIGION, WHAT DO YOU THINK? WELL, I THINK THE PROBLEM- I MEAN, LOOK, AGAIN, RELIGION
HAS NOT BEEN UNIVERSALLY BAD. FOR MANY PEOPLE IT CAUSES
THEM TO HAVE CHARITY AND EMPATHY, OR AT LEAST THEY
BELIEVE IT CAUSES THEM TO HAVE THOSE THINGS. BUT RELIGION HAS, ON THE
WHOLE, BEEN RESPONSIBLE FOR MORE VIOLENCE AND HATRED
THROUGHOUT HUMAN HISTORY THAN ALMOST ANYTHING ELSE. YOU DON'T FLY - I HATE TO
SAY THIS BECAUSE IT'S A HACKNEY EXAMPLE, YOU DON'T
FLY PLANES INTO A BUILDING BECAUSE YOU WANT TO
UNDERSTAND THE UNIVERSE. YOU DO IT BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE
YOU ARE DIVINELY RIGHT. AND IT'S SUCH AN ABSURD
BELIEF THAT IT CAUSES YOU TO DO IRRATIONAL THINGS. SO I THINK, UNFORTUNATELY,
ORGANIZED RELIGION, ON THE WHOLE, HAS BEEN
BAD, AND THE WORLD WOULD BE BETTER
WITHOUT IT. MUCH MORE OF THESE
THOUGHTS RATHER, IN<i> A UNIVERSE FROM NOTHING.</i> LAWRENCE KRAUSS' LATEST,<i>
WHY THERE IS SOMETHING</i> <i>RATHER THAN NOTHING.</i> WE VERY MUCH ENJOYED
HAVING YOU HERE THESE LAST
COUPLE OF DAYS. THANKS SO MUCH
FOR VISITING TVO. IT'S BEEN A REAL
PLEASURE TALKING TO YOU, AS IT ALWAYS IS. THANK YOU SO MUCH.
