Ken McElroy On How COVID Changed Real Estate Investing Forever

if you can find those places and find those markets that are emerging and be ahead of that and and use this model you can do very well financially it's it's a little different than the long-term 12-month let's say lease but there's a whole market coming i believe uh on especially on the single family side you're listening to bigger pockets radio simplifying real estate for investors large and small if you're here looking to learn about real estate investing without all the hype you're in the right place stay tuned and be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from biggerpockets.com your home for real estate investing online what's going on everyone it's brandon turner host of the bigger pockets podcast here with my co-host mr david green what's up man how you doing i'm doing great california is beautiful right now the the housing market has been so ridiculously hot it's been very it has been crazy put buyers in contract which it always stings because you know every time somebody buys a house that if they hold it long enough especially to market like this it's not ridiculous to say that house will make them a millionaire at some point and so when when you can't help people get that goal it bugs me but it's cooled off a little bit so we had a really good week we put like 10 people in contract last week so now i'm like like a flower that just got water again i'm all excited there you go that's cool man well i do have a question for you it's actually a pretty serious question how do you feel about golf yeah this is funny okay so brandon i had a conversation after this podcast i just want to bring this up and see if anybody else is on the same page as me the concept of golf what you are trying to accomplish is insane you're talking about taking a ball that's this big like a couple like an inch or something in the size of a golf ball yeah the size of a golf ball that's great i'm putting it into a hole that is like half the size of a shoe or less than that it's it's in over 400 yards of space like just if someone said hey this is what we're gonna do and you didn't know anything about golf you'd say that's impossible that can't happen and yet there's people out there doing 18 holes of this ridiculously impossible task over and over and over that's yeah but let me let me give you an analogy here because i know you're not a big analogy guys let me give you one i'm a brand new investor i got no money i don't know what i'm doing i just heard that real estate's a good idea and 15 years later i just crossed 100 million dollars in real estate owned how's that happen that's an impossible feat but you know what's not impossible it's hitting the ball a little bit in the first swing the thing falls off the t and moves like you know six inches and you feel like an idiot you put it back on there again you hit a little further you get it 10 feet then you get 10 feet further and then 50 feet or yards whatever i don't know i don't do yards and then eventually if you just keep hitting it toward that hole and you just keep going eventually it falls in the cup and that my friend is the secret to any success thank you that was good right come on great that was a good analogy right so if someone's having a hard time with real estate investing go play golf it will seem very easy after that or you'll never do anything else your entire lives in order to get good at golf because it's so ridiculously hard you might have effort people have to put in that we would have probably cured cancer seven times over if there was just no sport of golf this might be true all right so with that said let's get to today's queen tip all right today's quick tip is you know well before i get to the quick tip let me say this today we're interviewing a genius of a man his name is kenny mcelroy or ken mcelroy you've probably heard of him before because he's been on our show before back on episode number ken mcelroy is also one of the advisors and partners with robert kiyosaki in the rich dad company so he really specializes my understanding is a lot of robert's real estate investments ken is the person who's actually making the decision analyzing the properties and directing the the resources so he has a ton of experience buying a lot of property all right he was on episode number 52 of the bigger pockets podcast a long long long time ago uh yeah and ken is one of the smartest people ever so today we talk about a lot of stuff including uh whether or not you should go into debt and good debt bad debt that kind of conversation whether you're new or you're experienced we talk about a lot about the economy like what what's happened what's inflation doing does ken think the real estate market's gonna crash soon or do we have some hope and what's the data that helps support that it's a really fun conversation now the reason this is tied into the quick tip today is because we talk a lot about debt and about some of the ways that you can use debt to get wealthy and so here's my tip for you buy a property for your kid if you have a kid under five years old buy a property put it on a 15-year mortgage it doesn't even have to make money it could literally break even every month buy it put it on a 15-year mortgage in 15 years it's paid off to nothing you now have a property worth probably a quarter million dollars that you owe nothing on it your tenants paid it off so that's what i've done with my kids i bought my first one for rosie like four or five years ago and wilder's getting one right now we're in process of closing on it in fact by the time this interview airs we should have closed on it and so this this basically works because you're using debt to your advantage you're not paying the mortgage your tenants are paying the mortgage right it comes out of the cash flow and so like you're not doing anything and you're probably just gets paid off and plus it's going up in value so that's a quick tip today is if you've got young kids buy a property for them put on a 15-year mortgage pay it off and their college education is completely paid for there you go no exaggeration this is like the financial success starter pack for your kids your starter kit yeah they're gonna that should pay for their college pay for their first car and pay for the down payment of their own first home so that they can go repeat this and and have some left over and more importantly is it shows a real world pick a real world picture of the power of assets and versus liabilities and the power of passive income the power of wealth the power of real estate in a way that you could never just tell them or make them read a book you're showing them over the course of 15 years what it can do so there's your quick tip for today and now we gotta get in today's interview but before we do let's hear from today's show sponsors all right and i think that's about it again today's show is phenomenal with ken mcelroy i love this guy he is amazing and you're gonna love him as well so stay tuned for the whole interview with him and uh if you are have not yet left a rating or review for the show on itunes or stitcher or google play wherever you're listening to this spotify please do so uh let the world know that you like the show and if you're watching this on youtube don't forget to click that little thumbs up button below the video and uh you know subscribe to our channel for more content like this all right without further ado i think it's time to get into a very awesome fun and deep conversation with the ken mcelroy all right ken welcome back to the bigger pockets podcast man always an honor great to have you here great thanks guys as always i love your show and can't wait to chat about what what's happening well thanks man well for those who maybe didn't listen to your last episode don't know and much about your story uh and i i talked a little bit about you in the introduction but once you give a quick you know who are you and how did you get into real estate sure yeah so uh haphazardly really i i was managing a property uh out of university and and trying to you know pay rent and i was making a little bit of money but i immersed myself in property management as i was trying to finish up school and that really gave me kind of the platform for understanding the you know how how deals work because in property management you know your entire job is to obviously manage property well and produce cash flow and send the owner's checks and if you don't you get fired so you know so that was how i started and then uh really i i one day brandon i was like you know i'm on the wrong side of the desk here you know what the the owner was coming in and i was like man how do i own these things and that kind of started my journey i got my real estate license started getting educated and and i started buying small deals and and just like everybody i didn't know how i didn't have any money my parents certainly didn't have any money and and uh luckily i was on a wrestling scholarship in college and that's how i got there but other than that i probably wouldn't have gone and and i just started realizing the power of cash flow i started buying small deals and and then um i started buying bigger deals we started buying 100 200 unit deals you know 20 years ago and obviously syndicating because you run out of money and and then i ran into kiyosaki you know he was honestly he was just a somebody i was raising capital on and and he had just launched rich dad poor dad so this is a while back and we became friends and then he's like you got to teach what you're doing and uh so i started doing that i started writing the books but uh i've been a hardcore real estate investor manager uh you know we have a 250 people uh working for us all we do full full-time is apartments that we have self-storage office and and that and and you know i just love this business it's just provided the greatest amount of freedom that i can ever imagine yeah yeah i love it man yeah yeah i mean i i've said it before and i'll say it again it's like you know the abcs of real estate investing and the advanced guy like those changed my life i read those books i was like i'm gonna buy multi-family and then i started buying multi-family now you know i don't know 2000 units something like that right now it's just and it all started with reading that uh i'm reading your book so yeah you're inspiring a lot of people about like multifamily can get you out of a job and get you out of a like that life that you that's like prescribed for us right like work till your 70 and then you know maybe then you can retire the richest guy in the graveyard it's like i don't i want to do more than that right and that's what your book really taught me thank you i i appreciate that you know i i i didn't know how to write a book uh robert's like you just need to do it and um you know and then what what became my why really is i started doing i i still do i donated all the my uh proceeds from my books and all that stuff to uh charity we have we have a full-time director of philanthropy now at our company and wow all she all she does is give away money uh and uh so that's been great so it's been a great venue for me to be able to educate and and and talk about war stories and the stuff that you know i've been through in the last 25 years you know buying and selling apartments and and commercial and uh it's it's actually been a blessing the whole thing that's cool man well why we why don't there's a few things i want to cover today uh specifically some of the like the fundamental rules that have guided your career like the thing i mean like you're not the guy that came in like even like david and i like we kind of got in heavy at the last cycle and we've only really been through you know a cycle or not a cycle and a half but like you've been around for for long enough to see things come and go and so you see a big picture so i want to cover two things today specifically one i want to know your thoughts on where we're at in the market uh what's the world doing the eviction moratorium what kova did where the economy's headed i want to get your thoughts on that and then i want to go into some of the rules like those yeah the fundamental rules or the fundamental truths that you believe in when it comes to like multi-family specifically uh so maybe we can start with the the first piece there sure where where the hell are we going i know it's well it's interesting to me i i really really believe that we're heading into a pretty heavy uh problem around affordability and uh you know not not just from the inflation that we're seeing you know that's kind of kind of recent but but um you know we we always were under delivering new construction and supply for for years and you know if you go back to the national multi-housing council which i'm a member of or the national apartment association uh which i'm also a member of you know they projected that we were thousands and thousands of units uh off of what we needed to deliver and and so what's happened is we have three projects under construction right now you know we're getting hammered on construction costs yeah and and so you know and so are the single family guys so you know a p you know lumber's lumber right so it doesn't really matter where it goes so i i think um so i really believe you know if people if we're going to continue to build well one we're under supplied but two uh the the cost of construction has to has to uh move into a higher mortgage payment a higher rent payment and all those kinds of things for to to make to make sense so so i think we're gonna we're we're heading into some serious affordability issues you know and and then now you're laying on the inflation piece and so i think we're gonna see um yeah we're gonna have some disruption certainly with the forbearance and and the eviction moratorium and all that of course but but um on the on the rent side and the eviction side i i really don't see much disruption from a landlord's standpoint uh and i think we're going to start to see some real squeezes on the single family side more than more than anything so what would it be what like would it be i guess would it be right insane you don't predict or do you or i don't predict their own word but do you anticipate any kind of decline in prices uh for real estate investors like are we worried about another 2008 uh happening no no i i don't i think 2008 was very different i went through that uh you know there were a bunch of things happening at that time so everybody wants to compare it and i i get that because that's kind of the last you know the last thing that happened but but i think this is more like what what went on in the 70s when we started to see you know higher interest rates and potentially higher well higher inflation and those kinds of things and and certainly yeah i don't know you probably don't remember when i was a kid people were lining up for gas shortages and all those kinds of things so i think it's caught probably a little bit more like that and um you know in oh wait as you know what happened was the um the market popped and then people owed a lot more on their mortgages than their homes and certainly we're not going to see that because we just saw this big run in pricing and so even if people are really behind and they're they can't pay their mortgages or whatever my i believe that a lot of them are going to have enough equity in there to cover i do think we're going to see a lot of listings hit the market yeah and and i was actually looking at the sporting that there's there's a bunch of markets that are in trouble you know there's atlanta it's areas of atlanta san antonio um you know some areas of dallas as an example that that are that are seriously delinquent that you know so you're going to have some markets that are going to have a lot of forbearance is going to end and and you're going to see this kind of uh onslaught of supply what'll be interesting is to see whether or not it gets covered quickly by the demand you know so it's hard to know yeah i feel like and david i wanna throw this at you too as being a pretty heavy agent in an expensive market but i just feel like there's so much demand right now and you're still getting 30 offers on every house that's out there and 40 tenants applying to rent any of my properties like i still feel like they'll be able to absorb that when it does hit but no no david what do you think i really like that we're bringing this up brandon and i we feel a lot of pressure because people look up to us with what do i do what what should i expect i think ken i see a lot of the videos you put out you clearly are in the same boat because the videos that you put out are are an indication of the questions you're being asked and so as people are listening that's what they're asking is what's going to happen and i noticed one of the things that comes up a lot is this idea of like can you just mention the foreclosure moratorium ending and there should be a wave of people that fell behind in their properties and that immediately makes us think of 2010 when we had the same problem and we had too much supply and not enough demand at the time people had lost their jobs so no one was really looking to buy a house we still had sort of enough supply for the people there was so throwing all these foreclosures in the market immediately created oversupply prices dropped investors if we were bold cleaned up at that time but were now we haven't really built many houses since then first off that's the thing a lot of people don't realize if we're talking about single-family homes i think at least what i've noticed is the multi-family space has really done a better job of keeping up with demand if you lived in austin seattle san francisco you saw condo high rises going up everywhere but single-family homes haven't so the population grew the supply of real estate did not that happened for a long time and we didn't really think about it until all of a sudden why is this rent so expensive why is it so hard to get a property and one thing to consider is as these uh people that are behind on their mortgages when the when it comes due they probably have a lot of equity and could just sell it that's the first thing it doesn't automatically mean it's going into foreclosure and like brandon mentioned there's such a shortage of supply that and this is also market specific it's not everywhere but i think in most big cities in the country if we had an onslaught of listings that hit the market it would sort of be like your bucket's overflowing with water and it's spilling into the sand it would just get sucked up right away because there's there's 10 12 offers on every halfway decent house so if we if we doubled our inventory you just have five to six offers on every house there's still so much demand and my fear when people hear this is they say i'm gonna wait to buy they could buy right now they're in a position where it makes sense for them to do it and they hear that and they get a little bit greedy and they think okay i'm just gonna wait for that to happen and then they like it's a flash in the pan it's gone it never happens and then they missed out i'm curious ken what from your angle what your perspective is on that well so uh that's a great question david so i think a lot of i think a mistake a lot of people make is that they they broad brush real estate as if the whole market the whole us is kind of the same market so i'm actually closing on a single-family home in scottsdale tomorrow nice and and and scottsdale is arguably on fire and and i had to put i offered over list and and um you know i'm i'm actually it's a long story as to why i'm doing that but but i ended up it's going to be a rental and it's it's going to be a cash flowing rental and so i personally still think there's a lot of markets that have a lot of run rate and and uh you know like like phoenix like scottsdale is very affordable still as compared to some of the other markets so like like you think about this i'm paying 500 grand for for a home in scottsdale which is cheap in my opinion yeah and and uh you know based on what the rents and so it all boils down to math and i think that there are there are areas that are 600 700 800 with the same rent and there are areas that are 300 400 let's say you know with less rent so but it just has to do with the math around the cash flow and as you guys know because you guys are cash flow guys i always solve to the cash flow and and so if i don't ever want to be in a situation where i'm feeding something you know and trying to trying to time the market so if for me if it cash flows then i we always are considering it i think a further complication in understanding because your point really i should say first is is exactly right it's what it's worth to you how does the math work out to you is a much smarter way to look at it than well what does it compare to everything else which is what people get stuck into what i've noticed and scottsdale's a perfect microcosm of this example is short-term rentals have introduced a completely different system of generating cash flow they are less passive they're not passive investing when you do that but they are going to be more profitable in most cases if they're run well and now if you can buy a property in an area like scottsdale that will cash flow more as a short-term rental than it would as a traditional rental someone can pay more for that same property and still make more money they can pay a hundred thousand dollars more than what it's worth the arv compared to comparables and it's still an amazing buy for them so what happens is that pushes up the arv of all the other property in scottsdale before we had the short-term rental sort of information put into the algorithm you bought a house because you want to live in it so you just looked at the comparables or you bought it because it was going to cash flow which meant you were probably somewhere around the one percent rule and you're in very specific markets and the rent that it could generate determine it's worth but it was one or the other the short term rental thing just kind of screwed everything up as far as the way that we look at it but brandon nice says this is what governments are stepping in right now that have shut down those things like atlanta i know is having a big push against airbnb right now and hawaii shut it down almost entirely uh and a lot of other cities are doing it because yeah they see the same thing as you it changed the game in a in a weird way that made it unaffordable for most people who just work a normal job that's the concern is if you're a regular person just wants to live in a house and you're competing with someone that can generate 10 000 in gross income on this property you can't pay as much as what they can pay the rules change for how we evaluate real estate and i think to a larger degree with the amount of stimulus that the government has created the rules have changed as far as what is a dollar worth how what am i doing with my money and this is just it's on my mind all the time is if i'm if i'm stuck playing football the way that the rules were set up 10 years ago and i'm trying to draft a really good running back and really good blockers for that running back i'm gonna lose to the team that has adjusted and they're drafting a really good quarterback and a line to get him time and wide receivers to throw the ball to and can you watch sort of rules change over the years and so i just wanted to get your take on because you're because i love the points you're making are we on the right path with the way that we're perceiving this i i believe you are i i i listen as you guys know i'm still buying you guys are still buying we're all buying and and now there are definitely markets that uh you don't want to buy in and and um there are markets that you do want to buy and and you know so when i look at just going back to the scottsdale example you know if you take that same place and drop it in seattle or you drop it in la or you drop it to chicago or you drop it you know and in some of the other markets that is very very cheap yeah and so so you know when i look at where people are going and and certainly arizona is one of those places and and to your point brandon we got all kinds of people moving there we got all kinds of demand on both the buying side and the rental side so so for me it all makes sense and to your point david you know i think you know there's there's three factors going on there if you're a homeowner and you're trying to buy a home you know you are you're not in this in the same you're not dealing with the same set of circumstances as somebody like me who's going to rent it and and or someone like that is going to put a an airbnb or a short-term program around it and and i've been doing short term for years way before airbnb i had almost 200 of them in scottsdale and we were renting to the san francisco giants and the cleveland indians for spring training and all those kinds of things and so we've always been doing that and um um you know now of course it's all uh you know uh you know through airbnb and and through some of the other services it's it's gotten way more professional and much much better but i listened to the ceo of airbnb the other day and he said that airbnb is no longer just a short-term thing and what he was saying was and i think this is true i think what's going to happen for a lot of people is they're exiting and they're selling but now they're actually using airbnb as more of a lifestyle and they're actually they're actually going places and not actually owning them so they're you know they'll stay three months four months somewhere and and and just do that and and i i think that this is here to stay i think that behavior is here to stay especially with this work from home model you know that reminds me uh i'm doing it i'm launching this kind of side business going to test it out but for the exact same reasons you're just saying there's there's like a shift in the culture of people right now and so i launched well it's not well it's kind of officially launched but uh it's gonna be called month in maui it started with month and maui and we're gonna buy a bunch of vacation rentals here but the idea is different than airbnb and that i'm like people don't want to just come for a week i mean people are still coming for a week but there's a certain type of traveler now that can come for an extended period of time so we're like and car rentals are hard and all those things so we're like we we're literally like you get the you get the condo or the house you get a car rental you get a bunch of activities you can a white glove service for that type of traveler who's thinking differently and like i want to expand that thing to like cities all across the world there's month in maui month in london month in you know cabo whatever so because it's just a different type of traveler and then if i can do that i can get outside the airbnb you know like thing i can build my own brand around it so that's that's one side thing i'm doing right now just because i see that shift in the way that people are traveling the way the way that people can work anywhere now a lot of people can work you know from a distance so why live in ohio for the winter when you could go live in maui for the winter and work on your tech job there i think that's a that's something here to stay it's so as i i'm i was originally gonna probably buy something on the beach in like newport or manhattan or whatever and i what i ended up doing is i'm i'm renting something there in august and september and it's expensive i'm not gonna lie on a daily rate but when i'm done it's done and i'm you know and i don't own it i have the property tax issues i don't have all the stuff that's going on on the home ownership side so it you know there's a lot of guys like us that are you know what i'm just gonna go take down something really nice and and i'm gonna stay there and and you know call it a day and and i i i do believe that's here to stay yeah if you look at the way people rent cars less people are going to car rental places more people are using turo like uber took a lot of people who used to want to own a car and now they don't have to especially if you live in a dense population it's that's what i mean by the rules of the game change people don't want to go through the hassle of having to own a car and take care of the maintenance and pay the insurance and then not use it when they travel i think kovid really jump started this movement and if you think about airbnb it's sort of combining turo with uber with yelp i can look and i can see what am i getting when i go to this place and i and i can see the reviews of what's there and so what i i think you you're right ken that it's here to stay and one thing that i think about is more and more properties because we're probably not going to keep up with the demand for supply we're just it's they're going to stay scarce for a while now will be used in this way the highest and best use of that property is this airbnb model so for investors that means passive investing will get harder and harder you're gonna have to manage the property in this way and for renters it's gonna get harder and harder to find properties that you can just rent paying by the month and staying in for a long time like people have gotten away with because more and more properties are going to go towards this short-term rental purpose so i'm encouraging people that's one more reason you want to buy a house you don't want to leave your destiny in the hands of the market as it's changing yeah i i agree you know i i i for years had second and third homes guys and and you know and er when you really start to take a look at the the burn rate you know and and and all that and i was staying up for two three months at a time kind of meant bouncing around and i've changed my whole model to just my big primary home that i have i'm actually building one and and um and and now we're just going to just move around and kind of go where we want to go and and don't kind of have that commitment and see if we like the area and and i have a number of friends doing the exact same thing all over the country to your point brandon i think i think this is a new market it's uh and you know you start kind of starting with that inspirato model which you know i'm a member of and and you know take we would take down these big houses and and you know bring a bunch of friends and have a great time and and then lock and leave and go home and you know that's it right and somebody else and so so to your point if if you can find those places and find those markets that are emerging and be ahead of that and and use this model you can do very well financially it's it's a little different than the long-term 12-month let's say lease but there's a whole market coming i believe uh on especially on the single family side yeah well two more two more things that we've seen affecting like rules that have changed a little bit the game is the the cost of you know we mentioned earlier lumber is going through going crazy and it's come down a little bit but it's going crazy and then the cost of labor is going up it's harder to find people that want to work anymore for eight nine dollars an hour and and those things are obviously going to affect home prices as well i'm wondering what do you see with that is this a temporary blip or scene is is it supply and demand is this inflation hitting us is this hyperinflation how do you view these rising costs so it's a good question so we have a property under construction right now 330 units and our lumber package was 1 million higher than our budget that's lumber now that was two months ago it's since come down uh and so i think some of them are supply chain issues uh appliances you know concrete osb lumber those kinds of things and we're starting to see some uh you know you know those kind of moderate a little bit but they're certainly higher to your point and there's a lot of reasons for that brandon um some of it had to do with some of the trade issues like between canada and the us and mexico or you know and obviously covet and the pandemic and all those kinds of things and so but then the other piece was during the pandemic everybody started doing remodels and so if you owned uh hardware stores or anything like that you killed it and you know everybody was adding on to their homes and putting decks in and all those kinds of things so you kind of had this run in addition to that kind of a supply issue so i think that that is going to iron itself out but i do think we're going to have some permanent uh inflation on a number of those items but i don't think it's going to be quite what you know what the what you see in in in the media and and um but at the end of the day as you guys know but if if you know if you're trying to buy a home and i have a bunch of friends that are doing home building and and the homes are 30 40 50 000 more and so they're not even giving people prices and and i think what i think the issue they're gonna have is at some point they're gonna they're gonna be priced out affordably because i as you guys know we can't really lower rates much more than than they are and especially they use inflation or they use uh interest rates to tamper inflation so it's that could be the that could be the tipping point potentially with lumber this expensive it really makes you wonder how much wood could a woodchuck chuck if a woodchuck could check with [Laughter] not so much [Laughter] all right so so the we're talking about some of the rules that have changed i think the airbnb the the labor and lumber shortages and increases in those prices those are rules that have really changed the game over the last few years i want to shift now and talk about some of the rules that don't change some of the things that that work in that at least in your opinion can't have worked in any market regardless as you've built up this massive multi-family business what have you seen that just this just works well i i as you guys are and same with me i there's there will always be if you pay attention to the homeownership versus the rental piece you know if you go anywhere abroad like you know it's called europe let's say or asia there's a very very very high percentage of the population that is always rented in the u.s we've always pushed home ownership nothing wrong with that but that's been what we've done and so um i think that we're heading into more of a renter nation and i think this could be a 10 to 15 year run that that we're gonna see you know because of affordability and so to your point the one thing that that i think if if you're gonna get into this business i think there's going to be an ample supply of renters just like there is all around the world and and i think that um if you're if you're a good landlord and and you know and and you understand how how that whole whole thing works this could be a very very very good run and then take advantage of this inflation by hedging the you know with these fixed rate interest rates if you can so you know we just we just closed on a deal uh in houston uh uh two weeks ago and you know we're at three percent and and uh and so when inflation comes out around four i'm like man this is great you know we're basically borrowing it's free and you know based on inflation so if you can use other people's money through through debt or even equity uh and and kind of hedge inflation it's it's just i i think those are one of the things brandon that you will always see now there's we you know nobody's really seen inflation this generation at least but i've been through it and and the the anytime you can get that fixed that's why i think that you should get into debt right now if it's covered by by uh cash flow you know don't just do it you know based on a capital gains strategy because that that could bite you in the butt but but if you can get debt covered i think i think in 10 years you're going to look back and go i'm so glad i did that i'm going to pay back this debt for with these cheaper dollars and that has never changed and that won't change and you just got to sit back and kind of watch the policy it's also one of the hardest components to real estate investing i was just talking about this to my team yesterday even me who believes in real estate owns real estate loves real estate makes my living from real estate it's always hard to focus on buying the next property when there's all these other stuff going around because it's in year one it's not a life-changing event it's ten years down the road where you're like oh i'm so glad i did that and anything in life that you don't see was a big result for five to ten years is just harder to do but it's that much more important you're you're so right ken and i'm always reminding myself if 10 years of rent projections what is this going to look like does that get me excited so i can keep my focus on what matters yeah i mean especially when the renter pays your mortgage right yeah yeah i mean like why would you not do that you know the stuff that we're buying and i know you guys look at this so you know it costs us because we're builders too it costs us about 200 plus per unit to build something right now on the apartment side roughly well okay so yesterday i was on an investment committee call where we were always going over you know six to ten deals a week and and you know we're looking at stuff that's priced at 140 150 a door that was built 10 years ago 12 years ago and i'm like buy it you know because we're you know we're we're buying it so much less than you can build it if you scraped it and had to build it today it would be significantly more and as long as you're covering it with rent and you're putting good debt on it and you're not you know trying to play the capital gain strategy then i think there's massive there's stuff that's so underpriced uh still today yeah if you look at the cost to replace it and that's the way i'm looking right now is if we can buy something at let's say 60 70 of what it would cost to replace it and you know after renovation then then i still think that those are good opportunities yeah we just picked up a uh a property in houston it's a 500 plus unit thing we we got for 108 uh a unit and like half of them are more than half are already completely remodeled and the things like i'm like you can't build this thing for for that i mean they just put 40 million dollars of work into it over the last like half a decade just to get it up to where it's at right now i'm like 108 you can't build anywhere close to that right now so that's what i said brad so i said i said to my acquisition guys i go okay if that building that we're buying is in phoenix what would it cost to build and they were like well it's you know it's 75 000 more per unit well i'm like okay next you know like let's go yeah and and and then you take other people's money through debt match it up and and and you know the tenants pay off your mortgage it's the greatest model what you guys are teaching and you know what i've what i've been trying to teach people it's the greatest model you can make your investors a tremendous amount of money you can make yourself a tremendous amount of money and it's a win-win for everyone yeah i i call it in the in the multi-family millionaire book i call it the multi-family millionaire model but it's basically just the exact what you taught in abc's of real estate investing it's this idea of like yeah when you buy these properties over time they go up in value when you force the you know you force them up because you improve them you get higher rents at the same time the mortgage getting paid off at the same time your investors are the ones to plan the down payment and and everything just and then you get the tax benefits and the white house and the cost tags and all that stuff it's just it's like a win-win-win-win-win across the board for everyone uh which is you know it's exciting stuff yeah i love this stuff it is the greatest we we had a i bought a property in mesa arizona and at the time like six years seven years ago our acquisition guy it was 34 million dollars i was like man i don't know you know this thing's tight so my acquisition guy actually left and started working for another group and um we're still super close and so he sent an offer for the same property for uh 87 million so for 53 million more that we paid while he was my acquisition guy and my partner and i are like no you know we're we're going to hold it because it's cash flowing even though we have all this equity and the the point behind that is you know we're cash flow guys you know like we could sell it we'd have all this cash then we have the same problem that he has trying to find a home for it and and so if if you have a strategy of passive income long term and tax benefits to your point brandon it is the best because you're getting lots of money in cash and passive income you're not paying tax legally because of the depreciation that you have and and it's a win it's a win-win and all you just use that little refinance model you know it's which is exactly what we're doing after charlie called i said let's let's see let's see if we can scoop 10 or 20 million out of this deal tax-free because it's a cash-out refi and and just move it to the next deal yeah that's so good hey i wanna you know we're talking about a lot of you know a little bit higher level conversation today so i want to take it to more those who are listening that are brand new but related to what we're talking about here when you mention debt kind of that rule about if you can get your mortgage covered and then some like it just it just makes sense right but how does that work for the guy who's just getting started that's nervous about they've they've heard dave ramsey they've heard all the you know susie ortman don't go into debt get out of debt get out of debt is it is it like what do you say to those people who are saying well i don't know i don't know if i should use that that sounds dangerous that sounds risky to buy their first or second third property yeah so i i i actually do agree with some of dave ramsey for the right person and so if you're if if you're just a hard-working person and you're working for the man and and you know maybe paying off your home completely and not having that kind of worry and stress i get that um you know that's not our audience in my opinion you know if if you're trying to if you're trying to uh make this a business then then really that is your friend it really is good debt by the way as you know and as you guys know the difference between good debt and bad debt so good debt is covered by cash flow and and so i'm a massive fan and and uh of of using debt and we've done it for years tenants pay it off for you if you if you can fix debt and before as you guys know our you know we had inflation around two ish i guess over the years and so we were get we were getting dead at four or five percent you know six seven eight years ago now it's closer into the three to four range let's say in some cases under three but now that inflation's gone higher than that then really if if you're sitting on cash you're you're in trouble because your your spending power on the money that you have in savings is actually hurting you because it's going down right now by you know on the average i guess of let's say four plus percent a year so in 10 years theoretically uh you know that same money would buy you 40 less stock so yeah so that's what i mean about debt and so i look at i look at real estate assets uh it doesn't necessarily have to be multi-family you know i buy billboards and you know commercial office and sell storage and all that kind of stuff but all using debt and and then i'm letting the the forces of the you know the policy makers uh whatever they do is fine with me because i'm just kind of i'm just adjusting based on whatever they're doing next and so when when this administration is throwing everybody money it's actually coming to us essentially it's going to the person that's coming to us and rent and then we're using it to pay off the mortgage and so you know and we're going to start to see more and more and more that i really believe that we're going to hit this affordability issue and and i think the government's going to step up for the renter and for the landlord and there's going to be all kinds of opportunities for us because the one thing people need and to your point of what hasn't changed is housing it's always going to stay in the private sector the tax laws are all set up for us and and they will always be and we're always going to have these massive tax benefits i agree yeah and and i think part of that is because i mean i think a lot of our our lawmakers own real estate but i think the other pieces they just really like the the tax code is not written to like give some people a discount because we the government likes them right it's in it's designed to incentive in fact i think i haven't heard this first from kiyosaki's uh richard porter it's like designed to incentivize behavior right like i think david you made the point the other day it's like if you give your kid a dollar if they what make their bed like they're not cheating you about to lose that dollar and making their bed yeah it's not loophole yeah it's it's uh as much as like it's a it's like it's carefully designed and now obviously there are i'm sure areas of our government where they're like you know helping some guy but mo like they want us to invest in real estate they they don't do it because they're nice they do it because we provide housing for millions and millions of people and jobs right and jobs that's right i mean if it's interesting because you you know tom wheelwright wrote a great book tax free wealth and he you know in my conversations with him he said the the the tax codes every year are literally designed for uh where the government wants money period that could be oil and gas it could be alternative fuel stuff it could be whatever it is affordable housing we just saw that with the opportunity zone stuff and so you know which was a real estate play if you know if you chose to do that and so they will always be those kinds of things and and there's no way the government's already shown that they're not very good at buying and managing and building housing i mean we saw that for you know you know over over the years and and and so i i think um you know as long as you pay attention to what the government's basically serving you um you can do very very very well with these government programs you made a really good point earlier i don't want us to gloss over when you said i just look at what the government's giving me and i go with it when when i was in tahoe at a go abundance event robert kiyosaki came to speak there and he made a point where he said something i thought was very profound he said i don't get caught up in trying to force people to see the political landscape the way i do i don't get mad when liberals say they want to do this thing or conservatives say they want to do this thing and really that's what most human beings that i come across do is they want to change how someone else thinks to make them think more the way they do he said there's heads and there's tails there's equal sides of a coin i don't want to pick a side of the coin because then i only see half of it i want to stand on the edge of that coin where i can look over one side and see what what the heads is doing and i can look on the other and see what the tails is doing and when i understand the landscape i make the best decision and that's why i keep using this example of a rule book because i i notice a lot of people just have anger when it comes to what the government i'm angry they're printing all this money or i'm angry they're not printing enough money i'm angry interest rates aren't high enough i'm angry we haven't lowered them more there's always people that want opposite things and when you get caught up in the emotion of wanting to change things that you can't control you don't make good decisions for yourself it's much better to say well they changed the rulebook in the nfl again you can't touch wide receivers for the first five yards that's gonna suck well i guess we better draft better wide receivers and just accept we're gonna maybe we need better pass rushers instead of better cornerbacks or something and now you change your strategy to fit the way the rules are written instead of trying to change the rules or the government to go the way you want to and i wanted to highlight that because what you're seeing is it's a stress-free non-toxic happier more productive way to sort of look at these decisions that will have a big impact on the way that real estate investing or other investing works yeah it's a it's a heck of a point david i i don't care who's in office i i mean i do don't get me wrong i vote and you know i have my beliefs and all that stuff but it is what it is and so you know as they roll these things out the ppp or the um you know the the ieidls and and the the money that they're throwing at at folks you just have to adjust you just have to but the one thing i can tell you that i believe as a result of all this this affordability stuff that brandon was kind of talking about on the labor you know prices have gone way up and wages have not and so you know we have a real issue i think and i do i keep talking about this affordability issue the government is going to step in they will just like they did when they introduced section 8 just like they did when they introduced these these tax credits that they give developers to you know as incentives i had uh two weeks ago on my podcast the director of housing for arizona ironically i knew him um you know 10 years before that you know professionally and i said um i said tom the the the one thing that would really help a developer would be to lower the impact fees and the costs that you know before we actually even break ground you know there's massive costs and i said if you could reduce the parking requirements if you could reduce the density issues or increase the density issues and you can reduce impact fees then we can start to build more affordably but by the time we actually are building you know there's a number you know you buy the land as x but then the number before you actually start is y and that all goes to the city and the county and the state and so you know people don't realize a lot of times that sometimes the the cost of not not i'm not talking about lumber i'm talking about the cost the city costs can be so absorbent that you actually can't build and therefore creates these affordability issues and i i think that the cities are gonna come are gonna start to change some of their policies around affordability around credits and they're gonna they're gonna offer developers it's gonna piss people off because but to your point david we're under supplied right now we have so much demand and uh without an equal balance you're not going to you're not going to have affordability and so that's the biggest issue the biggest issue that these cities are facing right now are homelessness and and and and um and the money's going to continue to come so if you just wrap your head around the fact that they're going to be throwing money at renters they're going to be throwing money at the unemployed and they're going to be throwing money at developers that's actually what's coming for the next 10 years i agree i think the development thing is is fascinating i think because like i the way i see cycles working a lot and maybe i probably learned this from your book but like it they tend to there's not enough housing and so then they are building a whole bunch of housing and then it's really good for a while but then builders at some point in the cycle like because it takes so long to build and to get the permits then they're kind of left holding the bag once it gets overbuilt and then the market kind of tends to drop and again there's a million reasons that markets might drop but i don't see that drop happening so i think developers and i think getting into development is going to be a a powerful tool yeah like you said for the next decade i think there's going to be a lot of room to go there uh the thing that can slow that down of course if the cost of building just keeps going up right so how does that how do those two play in together if if there's a lot of money in development but prices are skyrocketing in terms of what it cost to build i guess does that just mean rents go up to have to cover that like they just inevitably rents are gonna have to go up yeah yeah so again just kind of going back to that basic math it's a great question you know you gotta kind of project is the market gonna be there you from the you know from the renters side or from the home buyer side later uh because the truth is guys as you know it costs the same my my lumber in texas or in arizona it's the same price and you know what's different is the land the rent and then the fees and all the stuff that you know that come with that and so so you know what i what i'm hopeful is that we'll start to see some governments relax things around zoning as an example so like something uh like you know like hawaii right now is they're you know they don't they're anti-growth anti-development generally and so but they've always been that way and that's why they have three generations and you know in in homes uh it might be the only state in the country that's actually seen that i actually think we might start to see that more where you're gonna have to people are going to start to double up and we're going to start to see some you know that's probably the next thing that's going to happen is you might have multiple generations in a home yeah well you see a ton of out here in hawaii i mean a ton of it is the houses that have been i call in in the the book the multi-family are called monster houses right where they just take a house and it's like frankenstein they add on a little bedroom here and they shove a little thing out in the yard they turn the garage into a unit and so i mean all i would say 90 of every house i've been to in maui is one of those in some way my own house like my own downstairs is a separate unit from the upstairs or they took the staircase out at one point and i got an ohana there's like an adu in the back it's it's everywhere here because it's the only way people can afford to live because it's just the affordability is just so hard so yeah i see that spreading especially california has introduced a lot of 80 80 use laws recently for the ability to build those i think building adus building those extra units on a property is a super interesting niche not something i'm going to get into because i'm too busy with other stuff but i would love to just build a business that just builds adus in people's backyards because i mean like you can build a house for a hundred grand a little you know two bedroom house and the thing rents for 1500 bucks a month and you don't pay for land costs because they already own it for you know i think there's a lot of a lot of opportunity there if the if the uh government is you know friendly with that which i think we're going to see more and more of that's the zoning part that's exactly what i'm saying i i really you know so you got an anchor or two acres somewhere with a home on it you're gonna start to see more density and you know and they're going to have to they're going to have to make those kind of concessions and so to your point david those you know just look at where things are heading the city's going to have to step up if they hold the line on things like zoning or parking requirements or impact fees or things like that then you know and it doesn't allow you to do exactly what brandon said then you there's no end in sight there's you're going to have to allow to be able to split up a lot build build more homes on it maybe build a duplex and provide more housing you know one thing that i speculate on i don't know is i i think what you two said is exactly what we should expect to see and the reason being to put it shortly is it's just too hard and too expensive to build properties fast enough for what we need what i anticipate and i'm sort of betting on is when this becomes an affordability prob uh problem it gets brought up to government government will do what they always have been doing in america is they'll say we need to get involved and fix this they will increase the section 8 housing voucher program to apply to more people so you know i don't don't go build your whole strategy what i'm about to say but just to try to offer a little bit of wisdom i'm expecting that the number of people that apply for section 8 will grow that the government at some point will say housing is a right just like food is a right and medicine is a right like if you show up in emergency room we don't turn you down and and we're sort of on a trend of labeling things as rights and i'm not taking opinion good or bad on that i'm just saying that's the way it goes so i'm expecting housing will become a right and if you own the real estate you will have the government paying your rent for you instead of the tenants in a lot of cases and if you're if you're making decisions just on the way the game is played right now you're probably not thinking that way you're going to say no to a lot of deals if you're thinking the way that i am and i'm looking at 10 years down the road 20 years down the road what is the rule book going to look like you'll make different decisions and that's why i love having these conversations because it's hard for me to see it becoming incredibly difficult to live somewhere and the government not intervening to try to make it better they have to yeah they they really truly have to one of the things that we were studying uh years ago as we were figuring out where to buy and what to do was the what we call the response times and uh you know to certain city core so like uh we were looking at san francisco and the response time for a paramedic fireman police person let's say well you know they have to live 15 20 minutes outside the city because of affordability so these are not these are not new issues you know if you're if you're a uh a teacher or you know or you're just a service worker and you can't live somewhere it becomes a problem so this is this is not new and and i i think that you're gonna start to see more and more and more of those kinds of things come out i think you're going to start to see you know money thrown at developers you're going to see some easing of the zoning and potentially hopefully you know we'll start to see some some easing of the on the development cycle because the the private sector has to help solve this and the government is definitely going to throw money at the renter because they don't want homelessness yeah man so good well cam before we get you out of here any other final like rules or or fundamental truths that have applied in your in your business i don't want to leave anything on the uh you know off the table here anything else you can throw in there yeah the the only thing is i would be uh very careful of being kind of a pioneer so you know i've tried it before it doesn't work so you know like uh it's funny you know whenever whenever i see somebody you know trying something new or going out into a market and and uh just be very very careful of that what's what you want is you you want to stay in tune with it but but uh not be the pioneer let somebody else be the pioneer and then kind of come in behind there and also the number one thing that i get and i'm sure you guys get is everybody says i i don't have any money i don't know how to start i know for a fact all three of us here started with no money and yeah and um it's a it's a it's what you see not what you have it really truly is and um the one thing uh i'll just leave you with is robert kiyosaki and i were in new york once and we were walking through the javits center um at one of these trump events we were doing and there were these beautiful models sitting there with these big brochures and they were sitting you know that you know the you know the the big backdrop and they were they were pitching hard and then we went next to the one next and and uh the guy's like i got this little deal here and it's kind of a you know a small little brochure we went back and i said you know it's interesting because the the this is the better deal the one that's not so promoted and and what happens is a lot of the deals that we're talking about here guys um they happen very quickly and almost without business plans now you have to put business plans around them but they make sense and to everyone and and so the bigger the brochure the worse the deal so that's what i would say be careful that that's a good advice you know you mentioned they mentioned the money thing real quick uh you know it reminds me of tony robbins quote about you don't lack you don't like resources you like resourcefulness and i've found that truth so many times in my life and i know you recently spoke didn't you speak it at tony robbins yeah at his wealth mastery it was really i you know just a random email that i got from him and and he asked me to come down to west palm beach and i did that and it was a blessing and and uh i loved it and it you know it's all virtual you know because it's coveted during covet and he had i don't know four or five thousand people from 83 countries on there and but you're right it's it's a it's a mindset guys and we're in a fortunate uh that we can now talk about that and i think that some people are sitting back on well there's no way i can start because i don't have any money and that seems to be the number one thing and i get it i truly get it but you don't need money there's so much money looking for for deals that if you have a deal it gets funded pretty quickly yeah yeah we just i was all freaked out because we you know i'm not freaked out strong word i was nervous because you know i've been raising for mobile home parks for a long time we added it okay well like i just raised like a 20 some million dollar no yeah you stopped some people but i yeah i thought i tapped out the well like i raised like 20 22 million dollars for uh my mobile home park fund closed that and then this huge apartment deal came up in houston and i'm like oh man and then like i had to raise like 13 million we raised 19 million in five days and it's like jeez and like and we have a waiting list of 250 people now that are like no i didn't get in like i want you know i want in on the next one so there is money out there people what i'm saying is there's money out there because a lot of people are nervous about the stock market they're nervous about different things they've their house has gone up in value a million dollars over the last couple years and like they've got money they don't know what to do with it and so if you can be the person that puts together the deal you can be the one that finds the deal that manages the systems that you're the hustle you're the education of the drive there are people out there willing to invest with you andrew cushman my friend was buying a place in fort walton florida and i told him i will buy into your deal and you can tell people i'm doing it and we had a handshake and that stinker had that thing funded within 24 hours like it was a very like a 50 million dollar place and i was like dude what happened he's like i actually forgot about you it happened so fast like it just it filled up so quick i was like man this is like like they opened the door to the club and they let everybody in and i'm left outside they're like oh we don't have any more room not for you so yeah like even he didn't do it on purpose that's a good friend of mine and um it still happened so yeah and that's a great point you don't need money you need knowledge you need skill you need deal flow you need to have confidence to know what you're doing but the money is probably the least important part right now that's right that's why you stay on bigger pockets read everything watch everything you know become a member i'm telling you guys it's it's education it's education and it'll open your mind up and the money will drop right in trust me people are looking for deals are not looking for money as much as they are for deals that's so true well man thank you so much we got one last segment of the show we'll head over to right now and that is our famous farm this is the famous for the part of the show we ask the same four questions every guest every week so we're gonna throw them at you uh normally we ask people about the your favorite real estate related book but i wanna you know i wanna actually ask you the other question that we ask uh authors typically and that is is there a habit or trait that you're currently working on improving in your own life something that you you're trying to improve about your life yeah for me um i i i have a tough time saying no so i take on too much and so for me i'm always looking at how you know how can i have my business working for me so that i'm not working in it so that's been it always sucks me back into you know so i'm constantly trying to pull out yes that's so same i was just telling someone i hired a new uh woman and she's doing amazing her name's karen and karen's worked with me for two weeks and she's already like let's just expand all over the country and i'm like oh you're too much like me this is gonna be a problem because it always just we see the vision we're like oh i could do that we go take the bite and we just don't realize how much chewing gets done once you take it in your mouth and then you're choking for the next you know six months to a year on all the work of management that we never think about the other the other day i'm sitting there we were just about to launch bp con this is now a few weeks ago now but uh we're about to launch the no the big bigger pockets conference and the like three days before i look at the website and i was like oh man this this is not good and i was like what's going on team and they're like oh well we didn't have any developer or designer we couldn't get it done in time i'm like oh geez all right so i stayed up till like one in the morning i built the web like myself like i'm sitting there like multi-millionaire real estate investor guy and i'm building a website until one in the morning because like i can't say no to that like i can't let it go not good enough i have the same problem yeah so anyway the bp con website yeah go check it out bpcon2021.com uh all right uh next question david what is your favorite business book i've i heard you know a thing or two about business books yeah thanks uh gosh so i am constantly reading i think one of the ones that that uh i i always kind of go back to is that good to great with jim collins and i know that's that's that's a while back but i always dust that off i always you know the it's interesting my friend that uh started coldstone had jim collins speak once and so he's like come on down and check him out so the first thing he said was you know how many of you in the room think you're level five leaders and half the room raised their hands and he said a level five leader would never raise his hand and you know so there's like level one two three four five and so for me as i was building my company i was trying to be what he would call a level four leader have some humility have some vision have some culture uh and so i i always just really still resonate with that book even though it's got got 15 years old now i guess did you take the cold stone guy yeah that's that's yeah doug well no no doug uh my friend that started cold yeah he's actually yeah he's our governor actually in arizona oh no yeah he's an e he's he was in my eo forum of all things and uh he was starting coldstone at the time um yep i worked i worked at coldstone that was my one of my very first jobs singing for tips and uh making ice cream i gained 40 pounds i gained 40 pounds in one year working at cold stone creamery it was the best job i ever had so good all right david next question that level five leader story cracks me up it reminds me of a story i heard about a uh a church that gave one of its members the most humble award and they presented them with a button that said i'm the most humble and they had to take it away the next day because you wore it that's great all right other than listening to my terrible jokes what is uh what are some hobbies of yours ken well obviously uh i'm i'm going to play golf right after this and so i do enjoy golf i'll be on the lake probably tonight uh you know i'm up in coeur d'alene idaho at the moment and uh nice yeah so i i love being outside man hiking i've done kilimanjaro twice uh with my kids yeah yeah so i'm uh that's cool um you know i need something like you know like you guys i need like a goal out there somewhere and um and so for me it's just uh keeping my body healthy because as you guys know um you know you can make all the money you want but if if you're not healthy it doesn't really matter don't make your money at coldstone when you're young that's okay that's okay when you're 20. yeah that's all right all right well my last question of the day if you either really boil it down what would you say separate successful real estate investors from all those who give up or they fail or they just plain never get started so it's funny uh i think it's a discipline issue and you know there's i think a lot of people when people talk about real estate investing i think that they think that there's going to be a package that's going to work perfectly set on their desk and it's going to you know everything's going to be just exactly fine um and as you guys know the the real money is made in in deals that are completely broken somehow they're you know they're 50 vacant there's a lot of capital work and you know and you you're basically solving somebody's problem usually a banks or maybe even a seller and so i think what happens is um the people don't know how to persevere maybe they don't have the right team and so my experience has been that people buy and then they they try to time the market and it doesn't work for them potentially or they have a bad management issue because they've made bad choices and they never really look at themselves they look at you know the real estate and so they're pointing outwards instead of inwards and if they looked at uh some of the some of the the basic things that you guys teach then i think that they would have a very very good experience and so i think it's discipline and education yeah i love it i cannot cannot argue with that well ken this has been fantastic once again i love chatting with you every time i feel like i already always walk away a little bit smarter so thank you for uh gracing us with your presence hey you guys are the best thanks again i i very very much appreciate it and by the way we we are giving away an ebook uh on on our oh please kenmacker.com uh slash biggerpockets and it's the 21 keys to real estate if anybody's interested everyone is interested everyone should go there right now because that's awesome dude i will learn anything from you i'm going to go there uh thank you my pleasure guys it's always a great uh chat with you guys and let's do this again soon as the market continues to change we could go back and refer to our our own conversation and see if we were right or not i actually kind of liked that when i remember when when covet first hit the shelter in place happened there was just panic and chaos and i've gone back and listened to some of the stuff i said back then to see how how accurate was i was i was i on or was i off because it's a scary position we're all in it is and i'll just say people should go back and listen that's all i'm gonna say go hear what i had to say all right ken uh did we ask where people can find out more about you yep just go to kenmacro.com and uh we got a whole website there with all kinds of stuff that they can learn from and and and uh and just know that everything on there everything we do all goes to our charity you know it's and we make our money in real estate and and i really really really like teaching and that's why i jumped on board with robert i spoke to him this morning um and you guys i love being on these platforms i i think um man if if people can change not only themselves but their families and you know their their uh family families it it's the best gift you can give them as education that's fantastic man appreciate it well david and once you get that thank you ken great job today my pleasure david good chat with you guys this is david green for brandon the cold stone creamer turner signing off you're listening to bigger pockets radio simplifying real estate for investors large and small if you're here looking to learn about real estate investing without all the hype you're in the right place stay tuned and be sure to join the millions of others who have benefited from biggerpockets.com your home for real estate investing online

Channel: BiggerPockets

Views: 140,860

Keywords: biggerpockets, real estate, real estate investing, investing, rentals, rental property, investing in real estate, income property, bigger pockets, passive income, ken mcelroy, covid real estate, real estate covid, covid real estate market, covid real estate impact, rich dad poor dad, real estate entrepreneur, real estate investor, how to invest in real estate, housing market, 2021 housing market, housing bubble, housing market bubble, real estate 2021, landlord, landlord tips

Id: MCjO7roGXjw

Length: 69min 53sec (4193 seconds)

Published: Sun Aug 08 2021